← Heart of the Enneagram
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- [00:07]
A
This is Heart of the Enneagram with
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B
Sandra Smith and Chris Copeland.
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A
Join us as we explore the depth and complexity of the Enneagram system.
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C
Step into that place of aversion and you will find emergent these dimensions of your own psyche and of your own sense of courage that you didn't realize you had. And to become more and more reliant on that or have more faith in that, have more faith that that's going to emerge.
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A
Chris, hi. It's good to be with you again.
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B
Hey, Sandra. It's so good to be back for this season six as we're focusing on the nine Enneagram types as leaders. And you know, with so much interest in the Enneagram and how it's growing in terms of leadership development, leadership training, we want to spend this season really diving deep into this work. So I'm looking forward to that.
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A
Right. And focusing on leadership at the Ideogram will be this conversation with our guest, Bill Toth. Bill Toth has worked in global security and non proliferation programs since 1996, primarily for the U.S. department of Energy's Material Protection, Control and accounting program, but supporting and interfacing with other organizations aligned with global security. He's worked nearly his entire career with a focus on comprehensive integral safeguards and security program implementation. For the past 25 years, Bill has traveled to multiple sites internationally, but with his highest frequency of travel and focus on Russia and the former Soviet states. Bill holds a B.S. in electrical engineering, an Ms. In industrial engineering. And his doctoral research, a Ph.D. in organizational systems, involved the focus on a model of organizational wholeness, or lack thereof, that contributed to catastrophic incidences around the globe. In his off time, Bill's interest in comparative religion and philosophy supports a meditation group that he and his wife Kathy host and have for 14 years prior Covid. He also plays a main guitar. Bill, thanks for being with us.
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C
Thank you. It's great to be here.
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A
I also want to add to that that in 2013, you really taught me a big lesson in why people work with the Enneagram or at least it's our hope. And Bill asked me to come and work with his group at Oak Ridge National Lab because his group worked with national nuclear security with Russia. When I said, bill, why do you want me to come? He said, for compassionate understanding because we've got some personality lockdowns and I think the Enneagram can unstick us. It just so touched my heart, Bill, and it was a joy working with you. So thank you for that.
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C
Well, thanks for being there. And people still Talk about that week. It was our full day and beyond. So it was very important to the folks that attended. So thank you.
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B
As we begin our interview, I invite our listeners and those of us here just to take a moment, just to be present. And we do that sometimes. We talk about having a curious mind as we engage this material and having an open heart and being grounded in our body and having grounded presence. We take just a moment to breathe and be present here with one another as we listen and learn. So I want to start, Bill, by just asking when you. When did you first learn about the Enneagram and what was it like? And how did you. What were the first clues that let you know that you lead with type 6?
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C
It was 2012 or early in the 2000, in that decade that I think I first began became aware of the Enneagram through Richard Rohr and his references to it. So I got curious because I was a fan of Richard Rohr and his, you know, particular particularly listen to his homilies and his talks. And so I got curious and, you know, I always pull threads and one thing led to another, and I found both the narrative tradition and then, you know, as it was easy for us working with larger organizations, the Rhetti test that many people took and through that found Sandra. And so we had employed her and enlisted her to help us directly with typing and then working within groups. So it's around that time, 2011, 2012, I first became aware of it. It took me a little while to reconcile with type. I thought for a while, because of just interest, that I might be a four. But then as I began to really understand head types and my own sort of fear vice. And after taking testing and then meeting Sandra, it was pretty clear that I was right, right there in the middle of the six.
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B
Were there particular indicators that or things that you resonated Most with?
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C
About 6, definitely worst case, thinking probably top of the list over planning. And I think the thing that'll come up probably again in this conversation is this idea that my anxiety comes from not knowing. And so my energy for investigation comes from the desire to quell anxiety. And I can be pretty tenacious about that. So. And just because of who I am, my physical size, that tends to be a bit intimidating to people. So that, as I say, is an area of growth that I have to sort of temper that engagement with the world because I see it as somebody coming from a place of fear, and somebody else sees it as something entirely different.
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A
Yes. Thank you. So in your capacity as a leader how would you say the gifts of your Enneagram type show up?
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C
Well, I'd say in this kind of work that I do, which is global security type, type sixes. We need more type sixes in global security.
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A
That's right.
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C
I think from, you know, this academic sense of vulnerability assessment and you know, sort of someone always scanning the horizon and being in sort of an academic way, looking at, you know, the possibilities, the worst case possibilities, it's a real strength leadership in this area of global security. So folks who, you know, sit back and think that everything's okay, take a little bit, you know, not the same approach, probably not as effective in this field. So that, that's, that's kind of the advantage. I think the, the disadvantages will. We can continue to talk about.
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A
Well, you know, I know that sixes love to know why most head types do, but there's that diving into problem solving and loving the complexity of it and wanting to understand, I would think that would be really benefit you.
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C
Yeah, it does. And you know, as I moved through from the hard engineering all the way to the organizational systems, which is much more heavily into the organizational psychology than it is to any sort of. It's the other extreme from electrical engineering, I found complexity within the human systems and inside of the human psyche. And so, you know, I use this image of, of a big bowl of spaghetti. And we were talking about the way that we encounter the world with many, many relationships internationally. And then once getting in contact with these people overseas or locally, we find both in the conscious and the unconscious level even more complexity. So the complexity is boundless. And so the spaghetti image is a good one because you sort of dive into the bowl of spaghetti. There's just no end to the opportunities for investigation and, and study. And I can get lost in that. I can enjoy it, but it also can be all consuming.
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B
Have you noticed, Bill, since you learned The Enneagram in 2012, about how knowing your type has impacted your leadership? Has that impacted the way you lead in any way?
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C
Oh, definitely. And I think that it has to do with the interactions with individuals. Well, the two parts to this that I want to, I want to draw attention to one interaction with individuals. And I use the best example with my wife Kathy, because Kathy's a three and she has her particular way of encountering the world as well, which has to do with, you know, some reluctance to be seen. And when, you know, you bring a three and a half an encounter with the six who's trying to quell anxiety by knowing there is A real strong sense of threes now being interrogated and they close down. So, you know, that's just one example. But, you know, many people have bring their own lens and the way that they encounter the world into interaction with me. And I have to just be mindful of how I come across, how they see me. So my leadership style is to try to stay light on my feet and be compassionate, to be helpful to people at the place where they are, as opposed to just sort of bullying my way through with my own agenda. The other thing I would say, and this is something that's been more recent for me, is this idea of leadership is not characteristic or quality of an individual, but an opportunity. So I'm thinking of the image of sort of a vapor or, you know, a cloud of something and that. That says this is. This is the time and the space within someone within which someone needs to step in and lead. So I was reading David White's, one of David White's books, who he described this story of being in a sailboat anchored off of the Galapagos Islands, where he did some work. And the sailboat had come loose, the anchor had come loose in the middle of the night. And he. It was quite urgent that somebody take control, take the wheel and get it out of there. Because the consequences could have been destruction of the boat and death for a lot of people on. And one inclination is go wake up the captain and tell him what's going on. And the other one is, go do it yourself. And so, you know, my leadership style has been, you know, from the fear perspective, am I worthy just to step into that opportunity space for leadership? And up until now, you know, maybe shrinking back and saying, I'll wait till the captain takes. Takes charge. And in recent years, you know, I've said, no, this is a space that I need to step into. And actually teaching that say, you know, you may want to be a leader, but leadership opportunities arise all the time. So, you know, to help the younger folks say, this is your space, you're qualified as anybody else, so just take it. And it's critically important that you do so. Somebody may not be ready for that. So that's a couple of different answers.
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A
That's quite a shift. What helped you and supported you in making that shift?
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C
Well, I think it's a regular practice of finding and feeling that sort of position of aversion, like the voices that come up and say you're not worthy and then just pushing into that space a little at a time and then, then more and more as you sort of gain courage and say, yes, it worked out just fine the last time, or it may not have worked out, but the consequences of it not working out are not disastrous. So try it again. So. So the aversion that I feel to stepping into that space that I'm talking about, that leadership opportunity is an indicator that I need to step into that space. So, you know, the practice of being open to feeling that aversion and saying that that's the invitation is the one that's actually brought me along. And the more you do it, the easier it gets.
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A
What I find in working with teams is that Sixes, people trust Sixes. They find them to be trustworthy. And it's a great, it's a wonderful trait for a leader and one that allows people to follow you quite easily. Yeah. Do you find that to be true? People just trust you?
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C
Yeah. And I have another story related to this. You know, because Sixes are worst case thinkers and because a lot of them, true of me, have, you know, active imaginations, really active imaginations. You know, we're actually sort of playing these worst case scenarios out in our head, which is kind of tormenting, actually. It causes a lot of anxiety. It can be the source of anxiety. But in real crisis situations, I'm very calm and I execute extremely well. And I think people see that and I think they trust that so they know that I will actually take that position. I feel like I've paid my dues by all the, you know, the anxious, you know, sleepless nights where I work through all the potential scenarios and how I might actually execute inside those scenarios. But, you know, that's where. That's where I am. So, yes, they do. I think they do trust. Trust me because that. Of that. Because they've seen me act and in that circumstance. Yeah.
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B
We hear Sixes talk about how in the midst, as you name Bill, in the midst of crisis, there's an evenness, there's just a solidness that is really beautiful. And it's actually when you Sixes become teachers for us in that way. So I appreciate you highlighting that.
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A
It's like there's no time to anticipate and you naturally trust your logical thinking and your preparedness. Bill, you also named something I want to bring forward that you remembered the times you succeeded or the times you stepped into a leadership vacuum or the vapor. And it didn't go too badly at all whether you succeeded or not. And if Sixes can remember those times, it helps build that confidence. So thanks for bringing that up.
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C
Yeah. That's been. I. I think about one of the things that has been troubling to me is to go into a room full of people. Let's say it's a boardroom or even a meditation hall. And this is very interesting to say, to see the stern faces. And some of this has to do with my upbringing and everything else, but the assumption is, after seeing the stern faces, that I'm the one being judged. So there's perversion to that as well. The meditation hall, particularly in the Zen tradition, everybody's there with stern faces. And the assumption is. The erroneous assumption is that everybody's got it together and I'm the one that's got the problems. So I come at some deficit into that space. And the way that I've gotten past that is practice and pushing into the version like we talked about, but also getting to know those individuals personally and without failing. They are not as judgmental or judging or competent as I thought they were. They are, you know, flawed people who are trying to understand the world just like I am. And, you know, not to. Not to be quite so thrown by the images that I see in that respect. So real. Some real investigation into that is extremely helpful. You know, you look like you have a stern face. Let. Let me just get to know you and see what. What's behind you. And it's never. It's never like I thought it was. It's never my first impression. So.
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A
And there you go checking out your projections. And of course, that's the defense mechanism of six. We've got to check those out. That's wonderful.
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C
I remember something from Joseph Campbell, who said near the end of his life, he said you had to give somebody some advice. What. What would be the best advice you give is this. Don't overestimate authority and don't do what I was doing, you know, because you're just wasting a lot of time. And he said, they're all scared children just like everybody else. So that's, I think, a tremendous little piece of wisdom. It doesn't mean that you approach that circumstance with any sort of superiority on your own, from your own perspective, but in fact, with some compassion. You know that everybody is struggling with something, and if you come into the circumstance that way, it's a totally different relationship with that reality.
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B
You've touched on this a little bit, Bill. I'm wondering if you could say a little more about where some of the
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C
challenges have been in your leadership leading with type 6, where some of those things come up where you might have been tripped up. Well, I think the challenges have to do with, you know, when you spend a lot of time working on problems in your head. And, you know, I can get pretty clear solutions that seem like they are. I've convinced myself that they are the obvious path forward. Then pushing into a space, presenting that solution to others and finding out that they can't see it at all. I mean, they just absolutely do not see the wisdom in the thing that I've created in my own mind. And they don't accept my way forward because, of course, they've got other things that they're considering or they've got other lenses that they're, you know, processing their own information and their own circumstances with. So, you know, that's been a big challenge is that when I become clear in my approach, then I'm pretty insistent on pretty good salesman and trying to sell it and finding that it doesn't always, can't always do that. Not because I'm not a good salesman, but because I'm not accommodating the fact that other people are seeing worlds and processing the world in different ways. So just sort of taking that into account and being a little bit more patient with that, or trying to find different ways to present my view of the world. Also stepping back and leaving open space for emergence. Sometimes to have a strong agenda and try to drive something through as a leader may miss all the creative, the best and most creative solutions and things that hadn't considered. So to set up the space to allow for emergence has been one of the best things that I've been able to do as a leader in later years.
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B
That's a beautiful image. I'm wondering, Bill, if you can think of an example of when you've been able to step back and allow that emergence to come.
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C
Well, I think it's not always just so passive, but it's using other mediums. So one of the things I've gotten a great deal of benefit out of is our rich pictures, which come from soft systems methodology. And that sounds all really sophisticated, but it's actually big flip chart pieces of paper with colored markers. And I'll go in with a problem, simple problem statement and say, everybody here with as few words as possible, draw what you think the problem is to define the problem, try not to solve it, and try not to use words. And so people will draw those problems. And then the requirement is after they draw the problem, they have to do a presentation of what they think the problem is. And so when everybody gets a chance to get out of that linear mode, which is really hard to do for engineers, by the way, and begin to use images and other media. It's so fascinating because you begin to see what emerges is that which is common to what people are experiencing, what people are actually presenting. So that's an example of not necessarily passivity, like let's just sit in a circle and see what happens. But in fact, using other, other means and other tools facilitate facilitating in other ways. And that one's been really, really effective.
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A
I love that. Yeah. And you're working with engineers. That must be a hoot.
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C
One time when I used it, all the engineers started. This is pretty recent. All the engineers started writing furiously even though I told them, please don't use any words. They all filled the page with words and I drew the picture. And people only talk about the picture. They only talk about the image in the picture. To this day, they keep going back to that image and nobody remembers any of the words. So this is a really, really hard lesson for linear thinkers and engineers. But it seems universal. They always go to the image. So I've been, I've spent a lot of time, particularly in conversation and saying, the image that's coming up for me now is this. I've already talked about bowls of spaghetti. I've always talked about a couple in here. These are really, really effective because people say the image that comes up for me is something else. Now why, why is it, why is your image different than my image? That tells a lot about how people are experiencing the situation without them having to use a lot of words.
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A
Bill, you have really worked on deepening your own self awareness through a number of systems. And I wonder if there's something in particular that you're focused on your personal work. Is there a pattern right now that continues to trip you up or is there a place that you're really focused on to move through or forward or develop?
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C
Oh, gosh. So this is. It may sound unrelated, but it's so related. Is that I've had the great. You know, I've been in music ministry for a long time and only recently have I come in contact with a new music minister who is encouraging me to sing. And so she's been really, really terrific. And it's such a challenge because singing requires a kind of commitment. So, you know, I think I've heard you talk about this, Sandra we, which is that the breath is high in the chest for those that spend a lot of time in the head. And if I am constricted and high in the chest Singing, my voice is constricted, and I'm not committed. So another voice teacher that we're friends with, I didn't take lessons with her, but I just know her personally. She talks about this idea of commitment, and I can just really feel the difference between singing with commitment and singing back with restriction. And so am I. All the things we talked about already, am I worthy in the space to make this noise? And in fact, most of the bad singing comes from the assumption that I'm not worthy to sing in this space. And when I can make that commitment, then everything opens up, restrictions happen and I go deeper, both psychologically deeper and also physically deeper and into the lower parts of the diaphragm. And these deep breath, deep breaths, which I think are, you know, so, so supportive of singing along with that. And these are metaphors that are so completely parallel to leadership style. I also feel from this playoff of singing solo and then in chorus, this deep sense of support so I sing is a call and response thing. I have an opportunity to sing something in solo, and then everyone joins me in the chorus. And the feeling that I get from that is so incredibly holding and supportive. So the image that comes together there is multiple hands saying, you've made the commitment. You stepped out with this particular thing, which turns out to be a verse, a powerful verse, which is a psalm most of the time in our case. And then we. We are all there with you in chorus for the response, for the actual refrain. And that is so parallel to management styles. If you step forward in this space with courage, then you can turn around. If you built your team effectively and you find that they are all right there with you.
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B
I love that image so much. It's one thing that strikes me, Bill, as you say it, I mean, I felt it as you were describing it. And also this image of sometimes we hear Sixes talk about they're sort of surveying the people around them to try to figure out what to do, you know, sort of looking for. And what you name is really the counter to that, which is if I can be committed, do that deep belly breathing as you name and step forward, then the people actually come. There's. They follow. And it's a. It's a different way of connecting and getting people to go with that debt is about really stepping forward in your own truth and your own knowing and your own commitment. Deep breath. And it's a beautiful, powerful image. I appreciate that.
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A
And of course, courage is the virtue of type 6. And when you step into that, as you do, when you fully Commit to you, knowing you've got inner ground to stand on. Then there's a faith that comes in people and in yourself and in that which is greater. And others have faith in you.
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C
And.
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A
And, you know, one of the core avoidances and fears for type 6 is being alone or being abandoned. And I just loved how people gather you up in this chorus. It's this feeling that you're not alone. I just. Is so beautiful. It's just visceral, as Chris was saying.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And the word that came to me was accompaniment, which you can hear on many levels, Right. In terms of music, but also being accompanied by others. It's really powerful.
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C
Yeah. And I think, you know, another story comes to mind which is somewhat different, but this is a leadership aspect that I tried to foster recently. I was on retreat one time. I tell this story all the time. I was on retreat, a silent retreat. And a lot of. There's a lot of activity. There's meditation and long sessions, but there's also kitchen activity is one of the things that requires a lot of. A lot of help. And so the image or the situation was that everyone was standing around, sort of on the periphery, watching what was happening with the washing of dishes and sweeping the floor and these kind of things. And everyone knew what the objective was. So they knew that these things had to be done. And nobody did it with any. Nobody had. Nobody talked. Nobody needed to talk, because everybody knew it. And when the opportunity arose and people were aware, they would step in and do the next thing necessary. And it was. There was so much efficiency and so much beauty and simplicity in that. Nobody was arguing about position. Nobody was clamoring for some sort of hierarchical thing. Everybody just knew to step into that space. So what was a manager in that circumstance? Well, I say that the manager was the monks. And the monks were going around saying, the broom is over here, the towels are over here. This thing, micro adjustments to what sort of everybody knew was the objective. So my goal as a leader is to help people see objectives so clearly that it unlocks in them the capability and the inclination to step in and help where they know they can help. And that my job is simply micro corrections. Because if I were to take on something else, which is approve all movements or something silly like that, I would wear myself out like a lot of managers and leaders do, take it all on themselves. Everything must come through me. That's just not sustainable. So this other thing. And again, the image comes forward of people sort of coming together and doing this thing without a lot of Force without a lot of direction.
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A
That's the great collaborative spirit of Type six. It's one of the great gifts of six. And also to be one who articulates well what we need to do and the why behind it. And then everyone knows. But so many leaders don't give enough why. And so folks are kind of left in the dark. So it's that upfront direction. I love that.
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B
Bill, I saw it like a dance when you described the meditation retreat. You know, it's like this little dance and everybody kind of knows their part. It just kind of flows well.
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C
I took inspired inspiration from that and came home and Kathy and I decided that we were going to do that exercise with kids and folding laundry. And you know, it actually worked. So much energy when you're little kids goes into, you know, that's my pile, this is my basket. And so much fighting that goes on. We got laundry folded and a quarter of the time and everybody was happy and got to go on and do something else. So we didn't do it that often because it's just not in the nature of kids to be silent in their. In their work. Nevertheless, it did work in the experiments that we ran.
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A
One of the gifts of a 3, 6 parenting team.
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C
It's something that I guess after we learned the Enneagram, we never. In a couple of the. At least one of the books, the Enneagram and Work in Love, I think that's. Is that Helen.
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B
Helen Palmer.
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C
Helen Palmer. It said something in there like, this is a very challenging and odd combination, but we've been together for going on 37 years, so. And just as great as it ever was.
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B
You mentioned a couple times. Well, in your bio it talks about Bill, about you being part of a meditative meditation group that you've been a part of for many years. And you mentioned the retreat. And I'm wondering what that practice has taught you again, maybe as a leader, maybe in the six realm, just wondering what you've learned in that. Sounds like a long term practice for you.
- [31:23]
C
Yeah. So the best answer goes from the beginning of our meditation practice. And actually I have to mention my wife Kathy and her way. So we got the idea that meditation was a good thing to do and Kathy sat down and started meditating. And because I am who I am, I got every book on meditation that I could imagine, read all the traditions and had it completely intellectually surrounded. And then something just sort of hit me as I watched my delightful wife continuing her sitting practice was just sit down and shut up. It's you know, you can intellectually surround this for a long, long time. Luckily, I didn't pursue that for very long, but it was way longer than it needed to be. And so, you know, some of that idea continues to hold, which is the cushion is not a place for planning. You know, the cushion is a place for just sitting and being. And that's a really, really helpful practice because I'm so good at planning and I'm always planning. We sometimes use biofeedback devices and it's really, really interesting. We use the Muse, which is a little EEG machine. It's actually quite effective. And when I'm in planning mind, the feedback just goes crazy. You know, they use these storm response sounds and it just. Storms are going off like crazy. So it's a reminder that it's a good place to not constantly be planning. And so, you know, my meditative practice says take some time out just to be with other aspects of who you are, particularly physically, you know, and my wife is more sensate personality and she's much more comfortable in that space than I am. And so to come back to the cushion and just. And the practice has allowed me to say, this is not a time for plan planning.
- [33:27]
A
Bill, with all your experience and wisdom and considering the type 6 structure, what would you say to a young leader who leads with six? Is there some wisdom that you would offer that new leader?
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C
I would say don't neglect the inner work and the self work. It's really, really easy for. Because I've been a young person, it's really easy for young people to neglect the inner work. It's not their natural inclination. Particularly, you know, I was going to say particularly men, but I think men and women all, like in that stage in life are out there to kind of conquer the world. It's a very external endeavor. You know, they're out there to make their place to, you know, make a home, make a reputation, you know, these sorts of things. And the way that you attack, maybe a good word, the way that you attack that problem is, from a young person's perspective is very external. And so I would say, as hard as it would be, don't neglect the inner work. Find the practices that you work on you. Because bringing your best self to your group, the people that you lead or the people you work with is the best thing you can possibly do for them. The last thing they want to deal with is you bring extra energies that are not helpful to that situation. So, yeah, I think you can read all the management and leadership books in the world. And you can do all that stuff. That's fine. That's pretty easy to do compared to, you know, just spend some time sitting in contemplative prayer or on the cushion or something like that. But such a hard, hard conversation to have with people when they're young and in the kind of industry that we're in. A bunch of engineers saying, go, go off on a meditation retreat. But, you know, it's getting easier, that conversation, I think.
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A
Yes, it is.
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C
I think that's. That's the main thing. I see so many people that really bring a lot of extra negative energy into the space, which is just them not sorting themselves out.
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A
So, I mean, basically what you're saying is the more self aware one is, the more effective we are at work. And so deepen your self awareness.
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C
Yeah, it not only benefits the leader, it benefits the people that they're working with. It benefits everyone. So it's almost the most compassionate thing you could do for, like, I'm a. I'm a leader of and a manager of several people and have been for many years. And, you know, my gift to them is to work on myself and they understand what that means. So.
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B
Wow, Bill, it's like that makes me want to work with you. I mean, when I hear a leader say my gift, you know, the way I can be a best leader is to work on my. That's like, wow, that's inspiring.
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A
Yes.
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B
Bill, is there anything else that you want to offer that we may not have asked about in terms of being a type six in leadership?
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C
I just think I want to go back to the thing that surprised me, Sandra, when you said this, I was in a six panel and you introduced us as the most courageous type, and that just floored me. I have never felt, you know, as I. As I look over my years, and I've dealt with a lot of really, really serious physical illness. You know, going back all the way from the time that I was in college, all I've really dealt with is the fear. You know, all I've really felt is the fear. And I guess in retrospect, I can see the courage and sort of honor that aspect, but that is not the way I would describe myself as the courageous type, But I guess other people describe that way. So do you feel like this may be a question for you all, do you feel like you see this characteristic in sixes as well? They are a good example of courage, but they don't really feel like they're that courageous on their own.
- [37:26]
B
When I think of Courage, Bill. I think of the ability to move forward in the midst of fear. Not having fear doesn't take any courage to move forward. So because you have this, I'll say access to fear, you know, but you're aware of that, and yet you still move forward. That's a demonstration and an embodiment of courage that many people don't do. And this is why Sixes are the teachers, is because we watch you in the midst of fear, take that step forward, make that commitment as you name, and that's ultimate courage.
- [38:04]
A
When you can hold faith and fear simultaneously and take the next step, that's courageous.
- [38:13]
C
So thank you for that. I do appreciate that. The other thing that I wanted to, because I was thinking about this conversation, and this has really, really been helpful to me even lately in recent years, is this notion that there's so many great images, particularly from mythology, is that once I get into a circumstance, the maybe this is a six thing, maybe this is a me thing, but to over pack the backpack and say that I've got to have everything that I could possibly anticipate and put it on my back and lug it in. And of course, if you do that, you never either never embark on a journey or you've got a backpack so heavy that it weighs you down, but to actually say, go into that dark place in the woods and realize that along the way and mythologically they turn out to be wizards and gnomes and helpers and, you know, little bits of wisdom or little tools or weapons or these kinds of things that are all represented through the literature. It's wonderful, but in yourself that we find these aspects that we didn't even know that we had no confidence in, and that, you know, step into that place of aversion and you will find emergent these dimensions of your own psyche and of your own sense of courage that you didn't realize you had and. And to become more and more reliant on that or have more faith in that, have more faith that that's going to emerge. That's been the biggest gift of my later years, and hopefully I'm just in my middle years, but of my advanced age.
- [39:45]
B
So what strikes me, too, in that, Bill, is that if we overpack the backpack, we actually won't see the tools and the things that are there because we rely on the backpack. And so what I hear you naming is don't do that, because we can begin to have faith that those things arise and those things are already here inside of me.
- [40:10]
A
I would just add that as Much as sixes try to create certainty and predictability, what you just named was that the unpredictable is kind
- [40:25]
B
and provides. And it provides.
- [40:27]
A
Thank you.
- [40:28]
C
So there's this great real image that happened. My daughter now lives in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and of course that's close to Mammoth Cave. And I love caves. I don't have an issue with claustrophobia or anything like that, but I love caves. We went down into the cave and went in a couple of the dark passageways and around the corner and there was a ranger behind a desk with some light illuminating and the comfort of that image of a person who was going to give me guidance, answer my questions. And she, she, it was a woman. She was standing there with this sense of calm, just waiting to be of service was such a wonderful metaphor because I had to first go into the cave to find it, to find her, I had to embark on that journey. And then once I turned the corner, there she was. And you know, there was such a. I can just sort of feel the images. I think about her right there. And that sort of metaphorically is the inner journey. You know, you continue to go there and these helpers are going to be along the way. You could say that God provides these or whatever language you want to use, but I can just see her in my mind and say that's one that was worth exploring for. And then she gives you challenges for the next part of the journey and she gives you the things you need to move along. But it's so wonderful. I would tell anybody to go to Mammoth Cave just for that.
- [41:55]
B
Bill, as you describe her in that image, is there a feeling that you notice that comes up in you as you talk about it?
- [42:02]
C
It's warmth. I mean, it's absolutely, it's warm, warmth and welcome. And you know, that, that sense of relief, that's the other feeling is that, you know, I turned the corner and there was exactly what I needed. Someone to guide me along the way, someone to tell me something that I needed to know, to give me the tool, give me some assurance of the path. And that is, that's been my experience of life essentially, you know, going to those dark places and, and the helpers come out, they're all around us, all around us. We figured out how to not to see them. And so, you know, my, my challenge for me in my later 50s now is to. Is to begin to see with new eyes and see those helpers and those God given opportunities, angels, whatever image you want to use, that they're all around us and they're Always. And now the image of helping hands is coming along there. His hands are coming out of everywhere. So that's a very, very different view of the world than seeing one at odds with it. And survival mode and seeing nothing is an opportunity for danger
- [43:12]
A
to believe that we get carried.
- [43:15]
C
Yeah.
- [43:16]
A
Is a trust. There's a trust there. And that's what I'm. It's just ringing in my heart from you.
- [43:22]
C
Bill trusts and then on the other side, to be carriers for others. You know, that. That unlocks us to do that. So we may be that. That guide, that helping hand that, you know, safe refuge for somebody else.
- [43:38]
A
I feel carried in this interview, Bill, by you. Thank you.
- [43:44]
B
Thank you, Bill, for the work that you have done and are doing. And I mean that in the work, the physical work, and also the inner work. It's just inspiring. And you are a teacher, and I'm grateful for that. So thank you for being with us today.
- [44:03]
C
Thanks for inviting me.
- [44:05]
A
Yeah. And just to thank you for making the world a safer place and your particular work. Yeah. So with heartfelt gratitude. Hi, I'm Sandra.
- [44:16]
B
And I'm Chris.
- [44:18]
A
And we invite you to take a courageous and loving look at what is.
- [44:23]
B
We want to thank all who've made this podcast a reality, including the Wake Forest University Program for Leadership and Character, for their financial and institutional support, for Sally Ann Morris, who created our theme music, and for Logan Greenhalgh, who provided website support.
- [44:41]
A
And great gratitude to Eric Murrell for his quality editing expertise. Special thanks to the narrative Enneagram and our mentors, Helen Palmer and Dr. David Daniels, its founders. And certainly great appreciation to all of our guests.
- [44:55]
B
For more information about this podcast and how to get a copy of our book that serves as a companion for deepening personal and spiritual growth, visit heartoftheenneagram.com
- [45:06]
A
in the daily days that lie ahead, may your mind be curious, your heart courageous, and your presence compassionate.