Heart of the Enneagram – S6 E3:

The Enneagram & Leadership – A Deeper Dive with Bill Toth (March 30, 2021)

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Sandra C. Smith and Christopher T. Copeland delve into how the Enneagram, particularly Type Six (the Loyalist), intersects with leadership through an in-depth conversation with Bill Toth. Bill brings decades of experience leading in the realm of global security, working extensively with the U.S. Department of Energy and international teams, especially in Russia and the former Soviet states. The discussion explores Bill’s journey with the Enneagram, his insights on leading as a Type Six, the gifts and challenges of this type, and the role of self-awareness and courage in effective leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill Toth’s Introduction & Connection to the Enneagram

• Sandra introduces Bill’s background in global security and organizational systems, highlighting his commitment to compassionate leadership and team dynamics. (01:14–02:46)
• Bill recounts inviting Sandra to Oak Ridge National Lab, aiming to unlock “personality lockdowns” in his team through Enneagram work (compassionate understanding) (02:48–03:25).

2. Discovering the Enneagram & Identifying as a Type Six

• Bill learned of the Enneagram through Richard Rohr in the early 2010s, eventually realizing he resonated most with Type Six due to anxiety, worst-case thinking, and the drive to quell uncertainty (04:19–05:35).

"My energy for investigation comes from the desire to quell anxiety. And I can be pretty tenacious about that." – Bill, 05:40

3. Strengths of Type Six in Leadership

• Sixes excel in roles requiring vigilance, skepticism, and scenario planning—crucial qualities in global security (06:36–07:24).

"We need more type sixes in global security." – Bill, 06:46

• Enjoyment of complexity (“big bowl of spaghetti” metaphor) allows Sixes to thrive amid organizational and interpersonal intricacies (07:38–08:46).

4. Self-Awareness, Compassion, and Adaptability in Leadership

• Knowing his type helps Bill temper his natural intensity, becoming more compassionate and lighter in his approach (08:57–11:56).
• Leadership as an opportunity, not a static trait: stepping into leadership when needed, versus defaulting to others, is a learned skill (David Whyte’s sailboat story, 10:36–11:56).

"Leadership is not characteristic or quality of an individual, but an opportunity." – Bill, 09:53

5. Moving Through Aversion and Building Courage

• Regularly stepping into spaces of discomfort/aversion builds courage and resilience (12:02–13:05).

"The aversion that I feel...is an indicator that I need to step into that space." – Bill, 12:44

6. Trustworthiness and Crisis Response

• Sixes are trusted leaders, especially in crisis; while anxiety is ever-present, their preparedness creates calm in emergencies (13:05–14:22).

“In real crisis situations, I'm very calm and I execute extremely well… I think [people] trust that.” – Bill, 13:41

7. Navigating Projections & Authority

• Bill discusses handling projections (assuming negative judgment from others) and importance of connecting beyond stern facades (15:10–16:49).

"Let me just get to know you... It's never my first impression." – Bill, 16:26

• Cites Joseph Campbell’s advice: “Don’t overestimate authority…they’re all scared children just like everybody else.” (16:49–17:31)

8. Challenges for Sixes in Leadership

• Overreliance on internal scenario planning can make it difficult for others to follow Sixes’ logic (17:37).
• The importance of patience, openness to other perspectives, and allowing creative solutions from the group (17:37–19:34).

9. Tools to Facilitate Collective Wisdom

• “Rich pictures” (drawing problems) circumvent linear thinking, fostering emergence of group insight (19:41–22:10).

"People only talk about the picture. They always go to the image." – Bill, 21:19

10. Personal Work: Singing, Breath, and Commitment

• Bill's journey with singing parallels leadership: letting go of restriction, making committed choices, and learning to step forward so others can join (22:34–25:35).

"Most of the bad singing comes from the assumption that I'm not worthy to sing in this space. And when I can make that commitment, everything opens up..." – Bill, 23:39

11. Collaboration & the Power of Team

• Leadership as creating clear objectives and allowing team members to step in naturally, likening good teams to a meditation hall “dance” or silent collaboration (27:04–30:27).
• Parenting with his wife, a Type Three, using collaborative, non-competitive approaches (30:32–31:01).

12. Meditation Practice and the Inner Journey

• Bill emphasizes the importance of self-work and contemplative practices to balance the Six’s tendency towards constant planning (31:01–33:27).

“The cushion is not a place for planning. You know, the cushion is a place for just sitting and being.” – Bill, 32:15

13. Advice for Young Type Six Leaders

• Encourages young leaders not to neglect inner work—deepening self-awareness benefits both themselves and those they lead (33:42–36:08).

"My gift to [my team] is to work on myself." – Bill, 35:51

14. Courage as the Virtue of Six

• While Sixes may not feel courageous, their willingness to keep moving through anxiety manifests true courage (36:31–38:12).

"When you can hold faith and fear simultaneously and take the next step, that's courageous." – Sandra, 38:03

15. Embracing Uncertainty and Trusting Emergence

• Warns against “overpacking the backpack”—true resources and helpers appear along the journey, not beforehand (38:12–41:54).
• Moving from survival mode to trusting both the world and one’s own resources fosters warmth and collaboration.

16. Metaphors: The Cave and the Helper

• Memorable story: finding a ranger in a dark cave, a metaphor for discovering inner and external resources by bravely entering the unknown (40:28–42:01).

"I turned the corner and there was exactly what I needed. Someone to guide me along the way..." – Bill, 42:01

17. The Call to Be Helpers

• Through trust, leaders become sources of safety and guidance for others (43:22–43:38).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Worst-Case Thinking and Growth:
  “My energy for investigation comes from the desire to quell anxiety.” – Bill, 05:40

• On Collaborative Spirit:
  “My goal as a leader is to help people see objectives so clearly that it unlocks in them the capability and the inclination to step in and help where they know they can help.” – Bill, 28:30

• On Self-Awareness in Leadership:
  “My gift to them is to work on myself and they understand what that means.” – Bill, 35:51

• On Courage:
  “When you can hold faith and fear simultaneously and take the next step, that's courageous.” – Sandra, 38:03

• On Trust and Inner Resources:
  “Step into that place of aversion and you will find emergent these dimensions of your own psyche and of your own sense of courage that you didn't realize you had.” – Bill, 39:23

• On Commitment and Team Response:
  "If you step forward in this space with courage, then you can turn around. If you built your team effectively and you find that they are all right there with you." – Bill, 25:19

Key Timestamps

• 01:14 – Bill’s background in global security
• 02:48 – The power of compassionate understanding in teams
• 04:19 – Discovering the Enneagram, path to Type Six
• 06:36 – Gifts of type Six in global security leadership
• 08:57 – Impact of the Enneagram on Bill’s leadership style
• 12:02 – Pushing into discomfort to cultivate courage
• 13:05 – Being trusted as a leader, especially in crisis
• 15:10 – Working through assumptions and projections
• 17:37 – Leadership challenges: bringing others along, patience
• 19:41 – Using “rich pictures” for emergence in problem-solving
• 22:34 – Personal growth through singing and breath—parallels to leadership
• 27:04 – Silent collaboration: meditation retreat and family laundry
• 31:01 – Meditation’s influence on Six leadership
• 33:42 – Advice to young Sixes: inner work as selfless leadership
• 36:31 – The paradox of Six courage
• 38:12 – Embracing uncertainty, mythological metaphors
• 40:28 – Mammoth Cave story: trusting help will appear
• 43:22 – Challenge to be a helper for others

Thematic Flow & Tone

The conversation is candid, thoughtful, and rooted in lived experience. Bill’s tone conveys humility and vulnerability—sharing both his anxieties and insights gained through decades of leadership. Sandra and Chris draw out deep reflections, practical advice, and vivid metaphors, giving listeners a clear, personal perspective on the inner landscape, strengths, and struggles of Type Six leaders.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Sixes bring unique strengths to leadership: vigilance, scenario planning, and deep trustworthiness.
• Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and regular inner work are critical for effective, compassionate leadership.
• Stepping into discomfort can reveal new capacities and courage.
• Trust emerges through action; resources and support appear during the journey, not before.
• Leadership is an ever-evolving opportunity, not a static trait—embodying adaptability, humility, and the willingness to serve.
• Collaboration thrives when objectives are clear and space is created for others to contribute.

This episode is an inspiring, practical, and heartfelt exploration for anyone interested in leadership growth, Enneagram application, and the lived wisdom of a Type Six leader.