2025 Update: Rose

Summary

Heavyweight: 2025 Update - Rose

Introduction

In this special 2025 update episode of Heavyweight, Jonathan Goldstein reconnects with Rose Shapiro, a beloved guest from an original episode aired eight years prior. Rose returns to the studio to provide closure and update listeners on her journey since her tumultuous college years. The episode delves deep into Rose's past with Alpha Chi Omega sorority, her battle with cancer, and the lingering mystery of her unexpected expulsion from the sorority.

Rose's College Journey

Rose Shapiro's college experience at the University of North Florida began as a rebellious freshman. Driving an old Volvo adorned with band stickers, Rose epitomized the "cool surfer chick," distancing herself from the sorority culture prevalent on campus.

"I was like, a cool surfer chick. I drove, like, an old Volvo that was covered in, like, band stickers."
— Rose Shapiro [04:16]

Despite her initial resistance, Rose's life took a turn when she began dating a fraternity member, leading her to integrate into the Greek community. She joined Alpha Chi Omega's Theta Sigma chapter, embracing activities like scrapbooking, float-building, and donning the sorority's scarlet and olive green colors. This newfound acceptance brought Rose a sense of belonging she had previously lacked.

"We went from being a disgruntled outsider to being the bubbly."
— Rose Shapiro [07:53]

However, Rose's idyllic college life was shattered when she was diagnosed with nodular sclerosing Hodgkin's lymphoma. The sorority members rallied around her, providing unwavering support through concerts, football games, and fundraising efforts. Rose remained actively involved in the sorority, even serving on the executive board, illustrating her deep commitment.

"Alpha Chi took care of Rose, and Rose was dedicated to Alpha Chi."
— Jonathan Goldstein [09:31]

The Mysterious Expulsion

After undergoing chemotherapy and achieving remission, Rose's relationship with Alpha Chi Omega took a drastic turn. During a meeting, she was abruptly asked to resign from the sorority without any explanation, leaving her bewildered and heartbroken.

"You are no longer affiliated with Alpha Chi Omega."
— Sorority Members [12:23]

Despite Rose's academic excellence and extracurricular achievements, no one provided clarity on the reasons behind her expulsion. Her repeated attempts to seek answers on social media yielded no results, deepening her frustration and confusion.

"No one has ever told me why I was kicked out."
— Rose Shapiro [13:33]

Jonathan's Investigation

Determined to uncover the truth, Jonathan embarked on a mission to reach out to Rose's former sorority sisters. His efforts were met with resistance; many alumni were either unresponsive or evasive. Phone conversations often ended without revealing any substantive information, with one ex-sorority sister, Amber, even abruptly disconnecting calls.

"Why don't you think that’s a good idea?"
— Khalilah Holt [02:35]

Frustration mounted as Jonathan navigated through uncooperative responses, culminating in a revealing conversation with Tricia, one of the few women present during Rose's expulsion. Tricia disclosed the sorority's strict confidentiality policy, preventing her from discussing the incident's specifics.

"Any CR meeting was, like, you're under oath. Everything that happens in here stays in here."
— Tricia [35:09]

The Connection with Rick

The plot thickened when Jonathan discovered that Rose's ex-boyfriend, Rick Niedringhouse, had also been expelled from his fraternity, Ka Ka, around the same time as Rose's sorority expulsion. This parallel led Rick to propose a theory: following their breakup, mutual rumors tarnished both their reputations, providing the sorority and fraternity with justifiable reasons for their expulsions.

"After you and Rose split up, people took sides. Rumors spread, and both of our good names were ruined."
— Rick Niedringhouse [42:00]

Rose and Rick's reunion shed light on the post-breakup chaos. Rick recounted how false allegations of Rose's infidelity circulated, fueled by their friends' need to protect their respective organizations' reputations.

"I walked into her apartment and she was having sex with some dude on the stairs."
— Rick Niedringhouse [43:16]

This revelation echoed the Beatles' Pete Best story, where creative differences led to his ousting from the band. Jonathan drew a parallel, suggesting that Rose's incompatibility with Alpha Chi Omega was akin to Pete Best not fitting the Beatles' image.

"Why was he kicked out of the Beatles? Just because he just kind of didn't seem like a beetle."
— Jonathan Goldstein [45:03]

Closure and Acceptance

Through these revelations, Rose came to understand that her expulsion stemmed from unfounded rumors and a desire by her sorority and fraternity to maintain a certain image. This recognition allowed her to finally let go of the unresolved questions that had plagued her for years.

"I now kind of carried it like a badge of honor. I'm not putting any energy trying to fit a square peg into a round hole."
— Rose Shapiro [48:52]

In her final reflections, Rose emphasized personal growth and the importance of embracing one's true self. Her experiences taught her to value authenticity over conformity, leading to a more fulfilling life free from the constraints of her past.

"I am who I am, and I was trying really hard to, like, cram myself into that mold, and it just wasn't working."
— Rose Shapiro [45:30]

Conclusion

Heavyweight's 2025 update provides a profound exploration of Rose Shapiro's quest for truth and self-acceptance. Through persistent investigation and heartfelt conversations, Rose uncovers the superficial reasons behind her sorority's expulsion, ultimately finding peace in embracing her individuality. This episode poignantly illustrates the enduring impact of unresolved conflicts and the liberating power of closure.

Notable Quotes:

• "No one has ever told me why I was kicked out." — Rose Shapiro [13:33]
• "Any CR meeting was, like, you're under oath. Everything that happens in here stays in here." — Tricia [35:09]
• "After you and Rose split up, people took sides. Rumors spread, and both of our good names were ruined." — Rick Niedringhouse [42:00]
• "I am who I am, and I was trying really hard to, like, cram myself into that mold, and it just wasn't working." — Rose Shapiro [45:30]

Final Thoughts

Jonathan Goldstein skillfully navigates Rose's emotionally charged narrative, offering listeners a compelling tale of friendship, betrayal, and ultimate reconciliation with the past. By intertwining personal testimonies with investigative journalism, Heavyweight delivers a meaningful conversation about identity, community, and the quest for understanding.

Transcript

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pushkin, Khalilah Holt, welcome to the studio.

[Rose Shapiro]

Jonathan Goldstein. Thank you for welcoming me to the studio.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Getting a little bit of sarcasm.

[Rose Shapiro]

Thank you. Thank you for welcoming me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Today we're going to be listening to an episode that originally ran. Oh, boy, like, what, seven years ago or something?

[Rose Shapiro]

It was in 2017, I'm pretty sure, so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, my.

[Rose Shapiro]

Eight years ago.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Eight years ago.

[Rose Shapiro]

It's a fan favorite.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, and it's one of my favorites, too.

[Rose Shapiro]

There's something I still quote from it, which is I think she explains in the episode when she says Pearl. I still think of Pearl to this day.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wow.

[Rose Shapiro]

Rose has had an impact on me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And I'm sure she's gonna have an impact on our listeners.

[Rose Shapiro]

I'm sure she is.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose has an impact wherever she goes. And if you stick around at the end of the episode, we're going to catch up with present day Rose and see where she is all these years later, what she's up to. Enjoy, everybody, but don't start licking your chops quite yet. That's disgusting. Who wants to hear about chops before you start enjoying? We are going to start off with a word from our sponsors. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Justin Richmond]

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[Khalilah Holt]

Hey, how are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I noticed that we're not Facebook friends.

[Khalilah Holt]

Oh, we're not?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, I think.

[Khalilah Holt]

Didn't you try to Facebook friend me? I don't think I responded.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you know how embarrassing that is? You won't even friend me.

[Khalilah Holt]

Jonathan, we're better than Facebook friends. We're real life friends.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, that's worse than Facebook friends because no one knows we're friends. Let's go to the Internet right now and let's friend each other at the exact same time.

[Khalilah Holt]

We're gonna friend each other because I have to go to work right now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Can't you take the computer with you?

[Khalilah Holt]

I'm stepping out the door now and I have to get on my bicycle because I'm gonna bounce.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Laptop on the handlebars. And then you could. We could. We could Facebook chat. Don't you think that's a good idea if, like, if we both friend each other at the same time?

[Khalilah Holt]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Why not? One, two, three, and then we press the button. Ready? Yeah. It's hurtful. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode rose. In 1962, the Beatles had their first number one hit, Love Me Do. A lesser known fact is that just months earlier, the band kicked out their original drummer, Pete Best. The Beatles had their manager do the job. The lads just don't want you in the band anymore, he said. No further explanation was given. But over the years, different theories emerged. Pete Best didn't have the right hair. Pete Best wasn't funny or artsy enough. He didn't dress right. For a long time afterwards, Pete Best wondered why his old friends had kicked him out. But he got married, started a family. Obla de, oh, blah dah. Life went on. That's what happens. People get kicked out of bands, parties, jobs, and eventually they stop searching for the reason why. Most people do anyway.

[Rose]

So I moved into my college dorm when I was 17. I was an incoming freshman in the fall of 2001.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Rose, and the school she was entering was the University of North Florida.

[Rose]

And it's like a beachy community. I was like a cool surfer chick. I drove, like, an old Volvo that was covered in, like, band stickers.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose was a rebel. And if all the teen movies I'd watched during the mid-80s taught me anything about campus life, it was that rebels don't mix with popular kids. And at the University of North Florida, nobody was more popular than the sorority girls.

[Rose]

We, like, walk through school and they're set up there and they're like, along the sidewalks and they're like, are you interested in joining a sorority? And I would just, like, blow by on my skateboard and be like, no. I didn't think that I'd ever be affiliated with it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

With sorority life?

[Rose]

Yeah, with Greek life. With the sororities and the fraternities and, like, the cool kids and their pop collars. Like, I didn't think that was for me. So the summer after my freshman year, I meet this dude, and I start dating him. And he's in a fraternity, and I'm making friends with all these people in the Greek community. And I'm like, oh, they're normal. They're not pretentious. They're not weird. I started to dress like them. I started to act like them, and I wanted to be accepted. And the fall of my junior year, I rushed and I got a bid from Alpha Chi and I joined.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sorry. The name of the sorority was called.

[Rose]

It's called Alpha Chi Omega.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Alpha Chi Omega.

[Rose]

And we were the Theta Sigma chapter.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Stata Sigma chapter.

[Rose]

Theta with a th. So it was the Theta Sigma chapter of Alpha Chi Omega. And it was at UNF sororities.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was a new and exciting world with such a rich history. It turns out that Condoleezza Rice, Enron whistleblower, Sharon Watkins, and Don Wells, who played Mary Ann on Gilligan's island, were all members of Alpha Chi and had taken secret oaths to remain sisters for life. I listen avidly as Rose explains what it means to be a part of Alpha Chi Omega Theta Sigma chapter.

[Rose]

We are classy ladies. We are sophisticated. We wear pearls. We know our manners. You know, like that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did they use the word classy?

[Rose]

You're not being classy. Yeah, absolutely. And they had, like, all these weird acronyms. Like, if someone came up to you and whispered in your ear, pearl. It was like the acronym for pearl. P, E, A, R, L. Please engage in acts resembling a lady.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So if someone says pearl in your. That would mean you would begin to.

[Rose]

It would mean, like, let's say I'm doing a keg stand at a party and another sister is there. Instead of being like, young lady, get down right this instant because that's causing a scene. Now you're causing attention. Instead, she's supposed to tap me on the shoulder and whisper in my ear, pearl. And then I'm supposed to be like, oh, you're right. Thank you for reminding me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose took on new hobbies. Scrapbooking with her sorority sisters, building floats for the homecoming parade, and dressing head to toe in scarlet, red and olive green, the Alpha Chi Omega colors. And while she'd never seen herself being cut out for all of this sorority stuff, the crazy thing was it actually made her really happy.

[Rose]

I was gung ho. Like, I'm a participator. I got really into it and just walking around school, now all of a sudden, like, you know everybody and everybody knows you, and now you're in on the inside jokes. Like, I felt like I belonged. Like, I went from being, like, a disgruntled outsider to being, like, the bubbly.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose and her sorority sisters did everything together. Beach trips, watching the Bachelor. One weekend, they all ran a campus charity race together. But afterwards, something felt amiss.

[Rose]

And I remember thinking, like, man, I feel really tired after that 5k. And I'm having a lot of trouble sleeping, and I keep sweating through my sheets at night.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose also noticed that her neck was swollen. She was feeling achy and fatigued. After a few weeks, she went to.

[Rose]

See a doctor, and I said, could you take a look at my neck? Like, I don't think something's right. And the nurse practitioner who was treating me that day just, like, looked at me in horror and was like, you have to go to radiation right now. And I was like, I have to make an appointment. And she was like, no, I'm calling the second floor, and you're gonna go get a CT scan right now. So it was crazy. They called it nodular sclerosing Hodgkin's lymphoma. I had huge pronounced lymph nodes all over my body. You could take one look at me, and it looked like my neck and chest were just full of golf balls. Like something was wrong. By the time we started testing and staging, I mean, I was a stage three. This is like big kid cancer. This is like, shave your head, Rose. Like, you've got real cancer. So I think around May, I started chemo.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose dropped out of her classes and quit her extracurriculars. Her days filled up with doctor's appointments and chemotherapy. The one bright note throughout was the support she got from her sorority sisters. They took her to concerts and Jacksonville Jaguar football games. They sold hot pink ribbons in the quad and raised thousands of dollars for Rose's treatment. Alpha Chi took care of Rose, and Rose was dedicated to Alpha Chi. She was on the executive board in charge of recruiting new members. And even through her cancer, she kept up with her work.

[Rose]

And new girls are coming through, and they have to decide which sorority they want to join. And now Alpha Chi has, like, one hell of a tale to tell. Now we're not just a regular sorority. We're the sorority with the cancer girl, and we're saving her life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And that was something that they led with. That was actually something that was made explicit.

[Rose]

Oh, I got up there with my bald head and gave a speech and cried every time about how my sisters were saving my life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose was lucky. By the spring of her senior year, her cancer went into remission. For the first time in more than a year, she felt like a normal college kid.

[Rose]

I just had a lot of fun that semester. My hair's starting to grow back. I'm starting to get my energy back. I'm starting to feel like a Normal person. And like, now I'm not just going to a party to, like, you know, make sure I'm getting out of the house. Like, now I want to party. Like, now I want to have fun. So I did. I felt like I deserved it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Then one night, after being cancer free for five months, Rose went to Alpha Chi's weekly meeting, which met in an old auditorium on campus.

[Rose]

And I come to the meeting and they're like, hey, Rose, can you stay after? We need to talk to you. So they clear everybody out, and now it's just like five or six women and me. And they're like, all right, Rose, like, this is gonna be tough. We're going to have to ask you to resign. And I was like, excuse me? Yeah, we're going to have to ask you to resign. And I thought they meant from my position, my officer position. I'm like, you're asking me to step down as VP Recruitment. Like, the new girls love me. I'm great with the new girls. Why? I've got this marketing on lock. And they're like, oh, no, no, no. We want you to resign from. From the organization. We want you to resign from Alpha Chi. And I lost it. It's like, you know that feeling when someone's breaking up with you and, like, you get that cold feeling in your chest and you know that someone's about to look at you and say, like, this isn't working. Yeah, it was like that times 100. Like now a hundred of my friends were all breaking up with me in a very methodical way, and I didn't see it coming. And I just kept saying, why? What do you mean, you want me out? And this is when they just. All of a sudden, it was like, these women I'd known for years, they were strangers, and there was no compassion. There was no kindness. It was, you know what you did, Rose? You know what you. I was like, no, no, you have to tell me. What did I do? Did something bad happen? Rose, we're not getting into it. You know what you did. And I'm just like, no, no, I don't know what I did. And at this point, I am so distraught. I think I'm, like, hyperventilating and crying. I think I'm ugly crying. I think, like, snot is just bubbling out of my nose, and I don't have the wherewithal to demand answers. And I'm like, so that's it? We're done here. You want me out? And they're like, yeah, as of tonight, you are no Longer affiliated with Alpha Chi Omega.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

She was getting straight A's. She was on the student council. She'd never done anything illegal. But Rose was out, and no one would tell her why.

[Rose]

No one has ever told me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And did you ever pursue it further?

[Rose]

God, yes. For years. Like, hey, guys, it's been five years since we graduated college. I know this is kind of weird, but I still think about it. Does anyone wanna tell me? I've, like, done the thing on Facebook where I've, like, made the big Facebook post where I'm like, all right, does everyone remember when Rose got kicked out of Alpha Chi? Like, if you or anyone you know has any information, like, I'm still dying to know. And then, like, dozens of my friends are like, oh, I'm following this post. What was it? What was it? And still, to this day, no answers. And like, you're racking your brain. I'm like, did I get blackout drunk and sleep with someone's boyfriend?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did you ever see any other of the sisters get kicked out?

[Rose]

No. No. And that's the thing is, like, okay, let's not mince words here. Like, was Rose a party girl? Yes. Were there girls who were way worse than me? Absolutely. And did they get kicked out? Never.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Does Rose refer to herself in the third person? Yes. Does she present a puzzling riddle? Absolutely. And would Jonathan quit before solving it? Never. Rose's college memories have all been tainted by that one day, 12 years ago. But her ex sorority sisters are now adult women in their 30s. They had to be past the college drama. So after Rose and I part, I begin reaching out to them for their help. Hey, Amanda, this is Jonathan Goldstein. Hey, Trish. I've been trying to get in touch. Hey, Nita, I was trying to reach you. Hi there, Zoe. This is Jonathan Goldstein. Hopefully, we'll speak soon. Claire, I phoned them in their cars.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi. Hang on one sec. I've got my daughter walking into ballet class. Give me one second.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sure. No, of course I phoned them in their homes. Do you have a minute to speak?

[Khalilah Holt]

I do. I have a toddler, just so you know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, yeah, no, that's fine.

[Khalilah Holt]

High on sugar because she just stole the bag of jelly beans, but yes. No, I cannot pick you up right now. I'm not picking you up. No, I'm sorry.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But not one of Rose's ex sorority sisters can tell me why she'd been kicked out. Some say they don't remember. It was so long ago. Others say they never knew why. There were nearly 100 women in Alpha Chi but only a handful had been in the room when Rose was kicked out. One of these women was named Amber. When I phone her, she's busy, but tells me to call back. So a few days later, I do. Hey, Amber, this is Jonathan Goldstein. I think we spoke briefly some time ago. Hello? I call back, and Amber apologizes for our being disconnected. But when I ask her why Rose was kicked out, again, the line goes dead. This is odd. Odder still is a conversation with an Alpha Chi sister a year younger than Rose. She says she inherited all the disciplinary documents from Rose's year, but that one file was missing. The one detailing why Rose had been kicked out. Things were beginning to feel collud.

[Rose]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, hey, Rose.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I call Rose to update her, but it seems she's already gotten wind of my doings.

[Khalilah Holt]

So I think you must have been reaching out to a bunch of different members of Alpha Chi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Word had started getting around on Facebook about some guy snooping around on Rose's behalf. Quickly, a consensus was reached. Shut this guy out.

[Khalilah Holt]

Just the way that some of the girls were replying. And the thread, it just felt like 12 years hadn't even passed.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And how do you mean?

[Khalilah Holt]

It was just like, immediately this whole group dynamic took place. And all of a sudden, instead of people acting like mature adults who are in their 30s, it was this whole, like, mob mentality of, this is sketchy. We shouldn't respond. And then everyone just started to follow in line and be like, yeah, it was sketchy. Yeah, I'm not gonna.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Okay, we're gonna have to go over their heads.

[Khalilah Holt]

How?

[Susan]

Alpha Chi Omega headquarters. This is Susan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The Alpha Chi Omega national headquarters is a large brick building at the end of a long tree lined cul de sac in Indianapolis, Indiana. It oversees all Alpha Chi Omega sororities across the country. Anytime a sorority kicks someone out, it has to file a report with headquarters. I asked Susan, the receptionist, if there might be documents that explain Rose's termination.

[Susan]

Okay. Yes, I'm sure there are.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, great. And in your experience, is this something that comes up sometimes where people want to know why they might have been kicked out of a sorority, or is this uncommon?

[Susan]

Well, I would think most people would know why.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. What happened in her case? This. This is a woman by the name of Rose Shapiro.

[Susan]

And how do you spell her last name?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Shapiro. I think it must be spelled S H, A.

[Susan]

Okay, wait a minute.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

S H, K. No, S H, A P, as in Peter. I. R, O.

[Susan]

Okay. Yes, I did find her in here.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, okay. Does it say anything Alongside her name.

[Susan]

I'm just looking at a status.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So then there is some information alongside her name.

[Susan]

I'm not gonna. Because, I mean, I can't say anything about this member. I wouldn't know her at all. And you know, and you're an outsider. You're not the member.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If Rose Shapiro were to call you herself, would she be able to find out the information?

[Susan]

I would think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sure. Mm. Well, we'll just have to see after the break a couple of outsiders try to get some inside information.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistants as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan, and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bitzel, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent.

[Brian Bitzel]

As a new student, you may not know how do I deal with my health and wellness issue? How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't want to do that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Bissell told me you could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

[Brian Bitzel]

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit IBM.com agents.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, Rose.

[Khalilah Holt]

Yes. Hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi.

[Khalilah Holt]

How's it going?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Good. You ready to get some answers? I tell Rose about my call with Susan, the receptionist, and we hatch a plan for contacting headquarters. I think I'll call it and connect you and I'll just be quiet.

[Khalilah Holt]

All right, let's call. I'm ready. I'm ready for this.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, I'm gonna call, right?

[Susan]

Alpha Chi Omega headquarters. This is Susan.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi, Susan. My name is Rose.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And lying on my stomach on the floor of the darkened studio, I finally feel like a real life popular girl. As I play with the phone cord and silently nibble from a pan of brownies, Rose explains what happened.

[Khalilah Holt]

I was ejected from Alpha Chi. I was a member Of Alpha Chi Omega, the Theta Sigma chapter.

[Susan]

Okay. And what's your name?

[Khalilah Holt]

Rose Shapiro.

[Susan]

Okay. All right. I'm going to give you to Mindy Tarwater.

[Khalilah Holt]

Okay. Before you transfer, I did have just one more question for you. Is there any way that you can just tell from a general perspective if I'm considered as a member in good standing or as a former member? Is there even. Is there any way to determine my status?

[Susan]

I think it says that you're not in good standing. I wish I could help you, but I don't know that. Let me see here. Mindy is out this afternoon, but she's working tomorrow. Why don't we leave a message with Mindy?

[Khalilah Holt]

Sure.

[Susan]

Yeah, I think you should do that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose leaves a message with this Mehdi tar water. When she doesn't hear back after a week, we call again. Over the next month, we keep calling with Rose leaving voicemails and me scraping weeks old brownie crust from the pan while listening in for emotional support. Okay, you're on, Rose. At the tone, please record your message.

[Rose]

Hi, Mindy, my name is Rose.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Susan. The receptionist passes her off to other people at headquarters. Someone named Gina.

[Susan]

Let's try Gina. Hold on.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Then someone named Eliza.

[Susan]

Eliza Payne is not available to take your call. Please leave a message after the tone.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi, Eliza. This is Rose Shapiro trying you again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

One morning. We phone only to discover that Susan, the receptionist, has been disappeared, possibly for saying too much.

[Susan]

Alpha Cha Omega headquarters, this is Cynthia.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Or Susan had the day off.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi, Cynthia. My name is Rose Shapiro and I'm a former member.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And Cynthia, she sent Rose right back to Mindy Tarwater.

[Rose]

Hi, Mindy.

[Khalilah Holt]

This is Rose Shapiro. I'm the member.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In the end, after months of phone calls, Rose finally hears back from Alpha Chi Omega headquarters. They pass along a single document, a letter dated April 21, 2005. The letter is brief, plainly stating that Rose Shapiro resigned from Alpha Chi Omega of her own accord. They have no other information to share. We know now definitely that the only way that we're going to get anywhere with this is actually by finding a sorority girl who was there and willing to talk. Rose's confidence in me was waning. While she used to drop everything for one of my updates, now she was sounding bored and distracted. What are you doing right now?

[Khalilah Holt]

I'm cutting potatoes. Yeah, I'm cutting potatoes. I'm about to make some mashed potatoes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, but the cut. The chopping might not be so great. Recorded.

[Khalilah Holt]

Fine.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My calls were becoming a nuisance. Rose, what are you cleaning out your fridge?

[Khalilah Holt]

No, I'm done.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I was starting to feel done, too. I had nothing. But a couple weeks later, I get a call from one of Rose's ex sorority sisters, A woman named Tricia. Initially, Tricia hadn't been willing to talk. But over the months, she thought about it and had a change of heart. I call Rose to share with her our good fortune. As soon as you finish scrubbing all your cookie pans.

[Khalilah Holt]

I'm not scrubbing any pans today. I'm not chopping any potatoes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All right, so Trisha wasn't just any old sorority sister. She was one of the six girls in the room who kicked Rose out of Alpha Chi. And not only that, Trisha and Rose joined Alpha Chi around the same time. And people saw them as partners in crime. Goofing at parties, singing show tunes. Only they knew she was someone Rose had legitimately liked and trusted. I explained to Rose that since Trisha was the only person willing to speak to us, she might be our last chance to get an answer. So during the conversation, we'd need to tread lightly. And I sensed that treading lightly might not be Rose's strongest suit. The situation required coaxing, possibly even some cajoling. And caution. Plenty of caution. We would need the perfect moment for Rose to spring the question that's been gnawing at her for years. Why did you kick me out? So I decide that a code word is in order, A word I can use to signal to Rose that the time is right. I have plenty of experience with code words. Dinner party, going too late, and I want people out of my home. Medicine balls, I'll say to the missus. And she'll produce a CD of my old spoken word band. Mattress Shopping and need to communicate my bottom line while avoiding the prying ears of predatory mattress salesmen. Medicine balls, I'll say. So every situation requires its own special code word. And the hours I'd spent crafting this one had been well worth it.

[Khalilah Holt]

Okay, what's the code word gonna be?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So, okay, so I was thinking maybe medicine balls.

[Khalilah Holt]

No, that's so awkward to insert into the conversation.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. I scrambled together my list of plan B code words. Toilet bowl, toilet plunger, turkey, toilet, Eau de toilette.

[Khalilah Holt]

That's very Canadian.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How about if I were to say without a do or a don't? Is that something that people say? For the better part of an hour, Rose and I bat around ideas. Yes, we have no tomatoes. Boy, are my dogs barking. Some people call me Maurice. Finally, Rose is satisfied. How about I say? And so it Goes. That's what I'll say.

[Khalilah Holt]

And so it goes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so it goes.

[Khalilah Holt]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so it goes. Okay, I'm writing that down. So that's gonna be our code word. Okay. So when I say and so it goes, you're gonna say, you know, Tricia, like, what? Just what happened? We had a plan. We had a code word. It was time for another word from our sp.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistants as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan, and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bitzel, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent as a new student.

[Brian Bitzel]

You may not know how do I deal with my health and wellness issue. How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't want to do that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Bissell told me you could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

[Brian Bitzel]

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work, work over and over again, and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit IBM.com agents.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello? Hey, Tricia.

[Susan]

Hey.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So I have Rose on the line. I think you guys can hear each other. Rose, Hi.

[Tricia]

Hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's been years since they've spoken, so Rose and Trisha catch up. But mostly they reminisce about homecoming, the big talent show, how they were both awarded best new sorority member.

[Tricia]

And they were like, we've never done this before, but here you go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, my God.

[Khalilah Holt]

I totally forgot about that. We did tie for best new member.

[Tricia]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The conversation eventually turns to Rose's cancer going into remission. And that's when their memories diverge. According to Tricia, after Rose was diagnosed as cancer free, she became a different person and started to veer onto what Trisha calls a bad past.

[Tricia]

I think you got angry, and not at certain people, but just at, like, the situation at life, you know.

[Khalilah Holt]

I Don't necessarily remember, like, an anger reaction.

[Tricia]

It's not like you were, like, pushing people down or punching them in the face. To me, I think that what I perceived was, like, partying. Partying with fraternities, like, drinking a lot like, YOLO lifestyle, but also with, like, two big middle fingers up. That's just like, yo, no one's going to tell me what to do or how to live my life.

[Khalilah Holt]

I just have a perception of myself that's like, whoo, I beat cancer. Like, all bets are off, man. Like, now I get to do what I want. Like, I did my time. Like, now I like, like, if I want to be drunk on a Tuesday, I deserve to be drunk on a Tuesday because, hey, I just beat cancer.

[Tricia]

Like, I think you were. You were separating.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The conversation was taking a turn from happy reminiscence to battling perceptions of the past. Before things could escalate any further, something needed to be said. And so it goes.

[Khalilah Holt]

I think that just Rose got the.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Memo and was back on point.

[Khalilah Holt]

I think for me, Trish, and I don't know if you can understand this part of it, getting kicked out. I had no idea it was coming.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Tricia]

I'm sorry. And I sincerely wish that I could give you, like, a list of, like, this is what it was. This is what it was, this is what it was. I honestly, like, can't.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I can't became a common refrain. Rose would ask why she'd been kicked out, and Tricia would say she wants to tell Rose, but she just can't. Can't talk about it, can't get into it.

[Tricia]

Like, I wish I could give you specific instance of, like, at this party, you said this. Does that make sense? Like, I don't know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It wasn't making sense to me, and I worried that it wasn't making sense to Rose either. So I try to clarify. Literally, like, I'm not sure whether it's a matter of, like, you do know, but you feel an obligation to kind of hold the secrets of the sorority all these years later. Do you know what I mean?

[Tricia]

Yeah. No. And maybe, like, I would say no.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Like, was there some kind of oath or something like that? Or was it because you don't remember?

[Tricia]

Well, any CR meeting was, like, you're under oath. Everything that happens in here stays in here. And so there was a confidentiality, a big confidentiality piece to those meetings.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I get the feeling that Tricia and the rest of her sisters still feel some obligation to protect the secrets and reputation of an organization they joined in their 20s.

[Tricia]

This was, I think the hardest thing was to think of the health of the chapter as a whole and how maintaining the health of the whole thing sometimes hurts like one or two people.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

By the end of the call, Rose had become uncharacteristically quiet. So after we all say our goodbyes, I check back in with her about how she felt the call went.

[Khalilah Holt]

I think it sounds like she has some memories, but she's not sure where she picked them up or who she'd be betraying if she talked about them. She's always going to believe, and everyone else in that room is always going to believe that there was something about my behavior that was unbecoming to the image of the sorority. And, and I mean, she almost called me a cancer. She almost said, like, for the health of the organization, I had to be removed. I don't think Trisha's a bad person. I really enjoyed reconnecting with her. I think she's a cool girl. But ultimately what I got from her is that she doesn't think kicking me out was a mistake.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For the next few weeks, I try to find someone, anyone, who might know why Rose was kicked out. I phoned people in the alumni office in student relations, people who weren't even in Rose's sorority, just on the long shot. They might have heard something. And then one day I get a call back from Rick. Rick was Rose's college boyfriend. They dated all through her illness. And when we eventually spoke, there was something he told me that seemed too strange to be a coincidence.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hey.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi. How are you?

[Khalilah Holt]

Oh, I have to, like, drive through the bank. Drive thru right now, real quick.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Always a lot going on. After Rose is done with her personal banking, I tell her the news. I, I, I phoned up Rick.

[Khalilah Holt]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And one of the things, though, that he shared with me, and I wonder, I mean, I feel like you must know this, though we've not ever talked about it, is the fact that he was also kicked out of his fraternity.

[Khalilah Holt]

Holy shit.

[Rose]

Wait, what?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, like at the time, he was also kicked out of his fraternity of Ka Ka.

[Khalilah Holt]

Kicked out Rick Niedringhouse.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Rick was kicked out of his fraternity around the same time as Rose was kicked out of Alpha Chi. Just like Rose, Rick had been the only person kicked out in years and he never got an answer as to why. But unlike Rose, Rick has a theory about it, one that explains why both of them got kicked out. I suggest to Rose that maybe it'd be a good idea for her and Rick to talk.

[Khalilah Holt]

Yeah, we should make that happen.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

Hey, Jonathan, how are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Good. I've got Rose here on the other line. Can you guys hear each other?

[Rose]

Hi, I can hear Rick.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

Hey, how are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rick's now a contractor. When I reach him, he's sitting in his idling truck at a construction site. Not long after their breakup, Rose graduated and moved out of Florida. The two haven't spoken in years, and this is the first time they've talked about getting kicked out. Right away, they start trading stories.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

Mine was just a phone call, and it was a phone call from one of our brothers that was a founding father, Chaz, and just basically said, hey, you're. You're. You're done here.

[Rose]

That is so insane. You were like, the responsible one. That's so insane. Oh, my God. I don't know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Before they get to Rick's theory, the two of them talk about old times, eventually winding their way back to the days when they were a couple. When Rose was diagnosed with cancer, Rick actually moved her into his apartment. He drove her to doctor's appointments, cooked her meals. After the pink ribbons had been sold and the fundraising had ended, Rick was the one waiting at home to look after her at her most sick and vulnerable. Do you remember being. Were you scared at any point, Rick? Like, did you fear that, like, Rose was gonna die?

[Rick Niedringhouse]

Of course. I mean, you hear the word cancer, and that's obviously one of the things that you're gonna think about. You know, we had been dating for a little bit, but it wasn't a great length of time before this even happened. So, you know, you take those feelings that you have for somebody, and, I mean, you're still developing a relationship, and then all of a sudden to go through and like, hey, you know, you have cancer. So, yeah, I mean, the entire process is terrifying.

[Rose]

It's terrifying. And I was, like, bald and my skin was turning gray, and, like, there he was, like, going to functions with me and being my boyfriend. And I remember one time, I'm in the middle of chemo, I am bald. I'm, like, not doing well. And we go down to Daytona to watch the NASCAR event because it's right around my birthday, it's the beginning of July, and then this freak thunderstorm comes out of nowhere, and the temperature dropped like a crazy amount. It downpours, we get completely soaked, and now there's, like, chemo. Rose is freezing. I have no immune system. I'm just like, teeth chattering. And so Rick took me over to the vendor area and he bought me this, like, head to toe windbreaker outfit of Darryl Earnhardt Jr. Oh, my God. Do you remember that?

[Rick Niedringhouse]

I, I, I do. You look, you look like you pretty much belonged with that fan base.

[Rose]

I looked like a 12 year old boy who was sitting in the bleachers with, like, his older brother's cool friends.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In spite of all they'd been through. Pretty quickly after her cancer went into remission, Rose broke up with Rick. And although Rick was sad, he understood it.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

Rose needed to have some time to be able to go and experience life. And so when that took place, her and I split. A lot of people like, oh, well, you know, you split because, oh, she's in remission and needs to go and kind of live her life. Well, that's kind of a shit way of doing it because, I mean, hell, didn't you take care of. Yeah, but I mean, she's got to figure herself out. We both got it, but we got it and nobody else really understood.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Which brings us to Rick's theory. Rick says that after he and Rose broke up, people took sides. Rick's friends were mad at Rose, and Rose's friends were mad at Rick. And each side started rumors about the other. And in that fog of rumors, both of their good names were ruined. It was like the breakup version of the Gift of the Magi. And as they talk, something in Rick's theory seems to click for Rose.

[Rose]

Absolutely. That theory has never crossed my mind. Like, I am sure someone who felt close to Rick and thought that maybe I had done him wrong or something could have gotten blown out of proportion by people who felt, like, defensive or protective on either side of that equation. Absolutely.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

I mean, I remember, you know, people coming up to me that were, I mean, not even friends of mine going, oh, hey, I heard you and Rose split up. And I heard she was cheating on you for two years or was cheating on you for, you know, the two, two months before y' all split with another guy from PI Cap. You remember Tripp? Yeah, he was the one comes by my apartment one time, he's like, oh, man. I walked into her apartment and she was having sex with some dude on the stairs.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

On the stairs, on the stairs. These rumors confirmed what a lot of Rose's sorority sisters were beginning to think about her after her cancer went into remission, that she was too wild, too much of a partier. But how do you kick out a poor, innocent cancer survivor from your sorority? It's a lot easier if she's not so poor and innocent. If she betrayed the loving boyfriend who saw her through her illness. These rumors must have Been just what the sorority had been waiting for. It gave them the moral high ground to get rid of her. So while Rose's sorority sisters thought her cancer recovery had changed her, Rick saw the experience as having changed her back to the person she'd been before joining Alpha Chi.

[Rick Niedringhouse]

When she started getting into Alpha Chi, I'm like, what? Like, really? You're gonna. You're gonna go that route? Because that's not her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose, are you a Beatles fan?

[Rose]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose had never heard the story of Pete Best. So I explain how he was kicked out of the Beatles. I tell her about all the different theories I'd heard for why he was kicked out. The hair, the style. But how lately, looking at old photos of the band with Pete Best hunched in the background, it all seems a lot simpler when you look at the old photographs of those guys. The Beatles with Pete Best altogether. Like, he just doesn't look like a beetle, you know? And in the final analysis, it's sort of like, why was he kicked out of the Beatles? Just because he just kind of didn't seem like a beetle.

[Rose]

I get the analogy you're driving at here, and I think you're right. Like, ultimately, I just wasn't an Alpha Chi. I just wasn't like them. And I can't necessarily put. Put into words or a definition what made them similar and made me different, but I just know that I was different.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose, have you ever considered, like, had you not gotten cancer, that maybe they would have forced you out earlier?

[Rose]

God, probably. I think I was doing a really good job of trying to assimilate early on, and I was, like, on my best behavior. But I think that, like, the real me just kept, like, cracking out. And then once after going through the whole cancer thing, then it's like, ugh, let's not put on airs anymore. Like, I am who I am, and I was trying really hard to, like, cram myself into that mold, and it just wasn't fitting. Like, it just wasn't working.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, Like, I think, like, in having spoken to quite a few of your old sorority sisters, I mean, none of them sound like you.

[Rose]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And I mean that in a nice way.

[Rose]

No, I'm totally down with that. Like, I'm a fucking maniac, and that's who I am. And I've come to fully embrace that right now. Like, I'm really cool with who I am.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, you know, I'm cool with who you are also.

[Rose]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Years after getting kicked out of the Beatles, Pete Best said he was still hopeful that maybe one Day he'd find out why. Maybe I'll run into Paul, he said, and we can talk about it. If decades from now, Rose should run into one of her sorority sisters, I hope she won't need to talk about anything other than the weather or what she's making for supper. And then she could say her goodbyes and get back to chopping, banking, and basically being the maniac that she is.

[Rose]

Sam.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Now that the furniture's returning to.

[Khalilah Holt]

Its goodwill home.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Now that the last.

[Khalilah Holt]

Month'S rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We meant it, if we tried or.

[Khalilah Holt]

Felt around for far too much.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Rose?

[Rose]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi.

[Khalilah Holt]

Hi.

[Rose]

There's a siren going by.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I know. There's always. There's always so much going on in your life. Let me start with the question that probably everyone is curious about. Have you. In the intervening years, have you run into any of your sorority sisters?

[Rose]

No. It was kind of a secret wish. Like, maybe someone will hear the podcast and they'll finally fess up to what was going on. Yeah, but I haven't, like, bumped into someone in town who told me, like, oh, this is what happened.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was all so, as the kids would say, sus.

[Rose]

It's a very insular world. And I think the biggest takeaway I have from that whole sorority debacle is that for whatever reason, I didn't assimilate. And instead of being frustrated by that, I've now kind of carried it like a badge of honor. I'm not putting any energy trying to fit a square peg into a round hole these days.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you feel as though you've put something to rest?

[Rose]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It feels very far away now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What do you think that owes to maturity?

[Rose]

Distance.

[Khalilah Holt]

Time.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Time is the great interlocutor.

[Rose]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I could have just stayed out of the way, basically, and just let nature take its course, and it would have been just as successful.

[Rose]

I would have got here on my own.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What are you drinking there?

[Rose]

Some mint tea. Little herbal tea in the afternoon.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wow, you've really become so mature.

[Rose]

Yeah, I've mellowed out a lot.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Hey, can I ask you a question?

[Rose]

Sure thing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Does Rose still refer to herself in the third person?

[Khalilah Holt]

Jonathan?

[Rose]

Not as much. Not as much. I gotta admit, I should bring it back. Rose should.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Rose]

Rose likes this suggestion.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

There we go. How did that feel?

[Rose]

A little uncomfortable.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll be back next week with another encore presentation. And along with it, another update from our guest. This is an I Heart podcast.