2025 Update: The Marshes

Summary

Heavyweight Episode Summary: "2025 Update: The Marshes"

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: Jonathan Goldstein
Guest: Kalilah Holt

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Introduction

In the "2025 Update: The Marshes" episode of Heavyweight, host Jonathan Goldstein revisits a poignant story involving the Marsh family, initially explored in a previous episode titled "The Marshes." This update features Kalilah Holt, who produced the original episode, and delves deeper into the family's journey to reconnect with a long-lost sister, Leisha Marsh, now known as Natalie.

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Revisiting "The Marshes"

[00:11 - 01:18]
Jonathan Goldstein welcomes Kalilah Holt to the studio to discuss "The Marshes," highlighting its emotional depth and the collaborative effort in its production. They express mutual excitement before proceeding to replay the original episode, with a teaser about an unexpected update involving Steve Marsh years later.

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Original Story Overview

[06:14 - 12:18]
Steve Marsh, a beloved family member, discovers a long-held secret: his parents, Jean and Pete Marsh, had another child, Leisha, who was given up for adoption in 2008. The revelation occurs during a casual conversation by the Hudson River, where Steve learns that his parents have kept Leisha's existence a secret for nearly four decades.

Steve grapples with the implications of this discovery, considering the impact on his tightly-knit family. His parents, despite their open and lively household, had erected an emotional barrier to protect both themselves and Leisha from the complexities of the adoption.

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The Quest to Reconnect

[14:04 - 21:18]
Determined to bridge the gap, Steve seeks Jonathan's help to motivate his mother, Jean, to write a letter to Leisha. The Marsh family, characterized by their procrastination and deep-seated shame surrounding the secret adoption, struggle to take actionable steps towards reconnection.

Jonathan flies to Minnesota to assist, leading to an emotional scene where Jean begins drafting the letter. Despite initial hesitations and heartfelt struggles to articulate decades of unspoken emotions, the family remains hopeful that Natalie (Leisha) will respond.

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Breaking the Silence

[30:08 - 33:37]
After months of delay, Jean finally sends the letter through an adoption agency. An initial response from Natalie, now known as Natalie, arrives via a social worker, expressing openness to communication. The Marshes learn that Natalie grew up nearby in Minneapolis, leading to cautious yet hopeful correspondence.

Figures such as:

• Steve Marsh: "I'm your mom."
• Jean (Kalilah Holt): "I hope you are having a good life."

Natalie's responses are measured, reflecting her own journey and the complexities of connecting with her birth family.

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Emotional Reunion and Correspondence

[36:48 - 43:32]
Over two and a half years, the Marsh family and Natalie cultivate a budding relationship through letters and occasional interactions. Key moments include:

• Family Gatherings: Initial dinners and gatherings where members meet and share stories.
• Personal Reflections: Jean grapples with guilt and hopes, while Steve evolves his feelings towards gratitude for Natalie’s unintended role in uniting his parents.

Notable Quote:

• Steve Marsh [44:09]: "What I really wish I would have told her is thank you, man. Thank you for you existing."

Natalie reciprocates with her own expressions of gratitude, sharing her close relationship with her late mother and acknowledging the positive impact of reconnecting with the Marsh family.

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Solidifying Bonds

[49:38 - 54:36]
The relationship deepens as Natalie becomes integrated into the Marsh family’s life. Highlights include:

• Family Integration: Natalie participates in family events, such as Steve’s wedding and backyard barbecues.
• Role as Godmother: Steve invites Natalie to be his son Monroe's godmother, symbolizing the strengthening of familial ties.
• Ongoing Communication: Regular interactions via text and social media foster a sense of belonging and mutual support.

Notable Quote:

• Steve Marsh [54:11]: "It worked out, man. Turned out to have a really happy ending."

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Reflections and Emotional Closure

[43:12 - 54:40]
Kalilah Holt reflects on the emotional journey, acknowledging lingering guilt but recognizing the healing that has occurred. The Marshes find peace in knowing that Natalie has led a fulfilling life and that their connection, albeit delayed, has brought immense joy and closure.

Key Insights:

• Parental Guilt vs. Acceptance: Jean and Pete reconcile their past decisions, understanding that their actions, though fraught with complexity, have led to a strong, loving family.
• Impact of Connection: The reunion underscores the profound effect that reconnecting with lost family members can have on personal and familial healing.
• Proactive Effort: The episode highlights the importance of taking action to resolve lingering familial tensions and secrets.

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Conclusion

"2025 Update: The Marshes" serves as a heartfelt testament to the enduring bonds of family and the resilience required to mend them. Through Jonathan Goldstein’s empathetic facilitation and Kalilah Holt’s production, listeners witness a journey from secrecy and shame to acceptance and love. The episode encapsulates the essence of Heavyweight—exploring the moments that define and shape our lives, ultimately offering hope that it’s never too late to address the past and embrace the future.

Final Notable Quote:

• Kalilah Holt [54:36]: "And now you guys live in our neighborhood."

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Honorable Mentions

• Steve Marsh’s Humor and Vulnerability: Throughout the episode, Steve’s blend of humor and vulnerability adds depth to the narrative, making the emotional moments resonate more profoundly.
• Jean's Silent Prayers: Each year, Jean marks Leisha's birthday with a silent prayer, embodying decades of hope and restraint.

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This detailed summary captures the emotional and narrative arc of the "2025 Update: The Marshes" episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened while preserving the essence and key moments of the story.

Transcript

[Kalilah Holt]

Foreign.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello, welcome to the studio. Kalilah Holt.

[Kalilah Holt]

I've been welcomed to this studio so many times.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We're going to be listening to an encore presentation of the Marshes.

[Kalilah Holt]

This is one of my favorite episodes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What is it about it that you think makes it a favorite? Part of it is just Steve.

[Kalilah Holt]

I think he is such a lovable, enjoyable person to hear from, but also.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Just like it's one where I felt.

[Kalilah Holt]

Genuinely emotional in the reporting at what was unfolding. And then my hope is that we translated that into the episode itself.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And this is an episode that you produced?

[Kalilah Holt]

Yes, it is.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

With your own bare hands.

[Kalilah Holt]

Well, on the computer.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Brick by brick.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I mean this was years in the making. Yeah.

[Kalilah Holt]

This was at the time, it was the longest production of an episode.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I think this was the first episode that we did not name after an individual, but a group of people because we. I don't know. By the end of the story, it felt like every single person brought something unique to it and it was everybody's heavyweight in a sense.

[Kalilah Holt]

That's true.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All right, well, great. Let's give it a listen. I'm excited to. It's been a while. Yeah, me too. This is the Marshes. And I should say that at the very end of the episode, we return all these years later with an update from Steve Marsh. It's not gonna be what you expect. Stick around and find out.

[Kalilah Holt]

Wow.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're not gonna believe what you find out. You're not gonna believe what he looks like today.

[Kalilah Holt]

We don't even know what he looked like originally.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Kalilah Holt]

Hello.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As a doctor, would you write me a reference letter for medical school?

[Kalilah Holt]

Yes, I would write a reference letter.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. What would it say? In.

[Kalilah Holt]

Wouldn't necessarily be favorable, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm sure a little bit favorable here. Let me get you started. Okay. To whom it may concern. Go ahead. You take it over. Go ahead, John. Yeah.

[Kalilah Holt]

John, you would be a terrible doctor. The worst ever. You don't listen and you just keep going on and on. You'd be doing all the talking.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, but a doctor has to ask questions to find out the symptoms.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah, but you wouldn't actually listen to the answer because you don't listen. You'd be arguing with patients, talking about yourself. You'd be thinking about something else, like, whoa.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Alex just liked one of my tweets. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is heavyweight. Today's episode, the Marshes. I first met Steve Marsh at my brother in law's wedding. In conversation that night, Steve was given to making soulful observations, punctuated by the word man. Steve is a big guy, shaggy haired and comfortable in his own skin. He's a little like the dude. No matter where he is or what the occasion, he gives off the impression of wearing a comfy bathrobe flung open wide to the world. It's perhaps also worth mentioning that while Steve wasn't invited to the wedding per se, all the guests were both happy and unsurprised to see him. Of course Steve would be there, and his entrance felt like a lovable Saint Bernard had just wandered into the reception hall. Would you send a wedding invitation to a Saint Bernard? Of course not. But would you be darn pleased to see one show up? Absolutely. The next time Steve and I crossed paths was at another wedding. While everyone was inside drinking and eating, I found Steve outside, standing by the Hudson river, looking preoccupied. It was there, smoking from his pack of menthols, that Steve told me about his mom and a secret she'd been carrying around in shame for almost 40 years. Steve said the only reason he even knew about it was because it had slipped out by accident. And now that it had he didn't know what to do about it. So after the wedding, we set aside some time to talk.

[Steve Marsh]

How's fatherhood going, man?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's great. It's really great. Before getting into it, Steve and I catch up. He's just gotten engaged, and because he's Steve, the proposal he made was an elaborate production involving a ring baked into a cake and an entire restaurant of people cheering his fiance crying. Makes regular guys like me look real bad.

[Steve Marsh]

I know, man. Her brothers are pissed at me too. They're like, great job, dude.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

With the pleasantries out of the way, we get to the Unpleasantry. His mom's secret. Steve says he first learned of it in 2008 on the 4th of July.

[Steve Marsh]

I was riding my bike and my phone was going off like non stop. And I thought it was like a girl or a drug dealer. It was like late, you know, it was like two in the morning. So finally I pulled my bike over and I saw it was my sister. My sister had called like 15 or 16 times, you know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Steve's sister, Megan Marsh, was up at the family's sprawling trailer lot in rural Minnesota, a place they call Marshland. On summer holiday weekends, it's tradition for the entire Marsh clan to head to Marshland to drink, hang out, and just be the Marshes. Seeing all the calls from Megan, Steve worried there was trouble up at Marshland.

[Steve Marsh]

So I called and I was like, what's going on? And she was hysterical, you know, like, Steve, if you knew that we had. And I was like, wait, hold on.

[Kalilah Holt]

I'm trying to get all this out. And I'm crying and hysterical.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Steve's sister, Megan. Between violent sobs, she explained to Steve what had happened up at Marshland. Steve's parents had gone to bed, but Megan continued to hang out with a handful of people around the bonfire.

[Kalilah Holt]

There's probably like five, seven of us sitting around the fire and we start talking about Ouija boards.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So to keep up her end of the conversation, Megan tells the group an anecdote about her mom. How a Ouija board had accurately predicted the main facts of her mom's life. It had prophesied her future husband's initials, PM For Pete Marsh, as well as the amount of kids her mom would have. 3.

[Kalilah Holt]

And my aunt is sitting three feet away from me. And my aunt said, well, she had four kids. And initially I'm confused, you know, I've been drinking a little bit, so it's slowly coming into my brain what's happening. I look down at my fingers and coning Stephen me Kevin, what? What are you talking about? And then I look up around the fire. Everybody stops, everybody's silent, and they're all staring at me.

[Steve Marsh]

So standing in this park, talking to my sister on the fourth of July, she told me that my parents had another child, that we had another sibling that they gave up for adoption. Years before they married, the Marsh kids.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Were full grown adults when they learned of their full sibling, a little girl, 100% marsh that their mom had named Leisha. When Steve's parents, Jean and Pete, started dating, it was just a fling. And when Jean became pregnant, they decided to put the baby up for adoption. The unusual thing, though, is that after that, Jean and Pete ended up staying together. Seven years later, they had Steve, and now they've been married for almost 50 years. But all the while, neither of Steve's parents ever spoke of their eldest child.

[Steve Marsh]

My family is, like, shockingly open. So the fact that they, like, sat on this secret, it was wild.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's now been years since the truth came out, and the Marshes want to do something with that truth. But Steve says procrastination is a family trait, and in this case, decades of his mother's shame has turned that procrastination into total inertia. But Leisha is never far from any of their thoughts. Megan wonders what it would be like to finally have a sister. And Steve's younger brother Kevin, wonders if Leisha's a redhead like him. Kevin scans every room for red hair. And then there's Steve's dad. A few days after the secret slipped out, Steve met up with him as he does every week.

[Steve Marsh]

My dad is a retired truck driver and kind of a tough guy. And every Monday night, we shoot shotguns together.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In the summertime in the car on the way to go shooting, Steve asked his dad how often he thought about Leesha.

[Steve Marsh]

And he said, every day. And we drive. It's like a half hour drive on the freeway, and about halfway there. No shit, man. This is, like a short story thing. It's almost too corny. But there was two ducks, like two adult ducks and three little baby ducks crossing the freeway. And my dad dipped, like, deep into the shoulder of the freeway and then recovered the car. And, like, we waited a while, and he was like, did you see me miss those ducks? And I was like, yeah, yeah. And it's one of the few times I've seen my dad cry.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But as much as the Marshes think about Leisha when it comes to actually trying to find her, they're all waiting on Steve's mom.

[Steve Marsh]

I Think my dad for as much of an alpha tough guy. I think my mom runs his shit, you know?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Marsh]

So it's kind of up to her. And I think she is scared about what maybe she'll find out, like, if Leisha has hard feelings about this or if Leisha's life didn't go as well as it could have, or how Leisha will feel to meet her family that's intact and went on to have three more kids. Like, wouldn't that be weird?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sure. The family's intact. And as Steve explains, the Marsh kids are all close and doing well now. Megan has a career as a nurse, Steve writes, and Kevin repairs home appliances. But growing up, there were a lot of drugs and a lot of trouble. Kevin had a serious meth problem, and Steve and Megan drank too much. Steve almost flunked out of high school, and Kevin and Megan both dropped out. There was one Christmas the Marshes spent visiting Kevin in treatment, and one weekend Steve spent in jail because he and Kevin got into a brawl over a Beastie Boys cd.

[Steve Marsh]

And I'm just wondering, like, Leesha, who was raised in a totally separate environment, I just wonder what she's like. You know, our house was so loud when growing up. And, like, I always thought my family's kind of weird. Like, they drink Windsor 7 up. Like it's gonna be vanishing from the face of the earth.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So what is Windsor?

[Steve Marsh]

That's the Marsh family drink, man.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pardon my ignorance.

[Steve Marsh]

Seven and seven, man. It could be Seagram's, too. Canadian whiskey and lemon lime soda.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But finding out whether Leesha is like a Marsh steeped in Windsor and chaos isn't so simple.

[Steve Marsh]

So the hospital no longer exists.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The hospital where your mom had her.

[Steve Marsh]

Right. And it was a closed Catholic adoption. Like, my parents never met the couple that adopted Leisha.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Steve has no information about where Leisha ended up. He had a friend with connections run the name Leisha Marsh through an FBI database, but found nothing. It's almost certain Leisha's name isn't even Leesha anymore. Because it was a closed adoption, the only way to reach her is through the adoption agency. Steve's mom has to write Leisha a letter asking to make contact. But whenever she's tried to write in the past, her sense of shame gets the better of her.

[Steve Marsh]

Like, she wants to do it. She said she would do it. Like, what do I do? You know? Like, how do we make this happen?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And this is why Steve has come to me. He needs a spur to action, someone who isn't a Marsh to make sure. The letter gets written.

[Steve Marsh]

We could use some help. It's almost like when you want to like go to the gym or something, just like have somebody else who's going with you. Like some kind of accountability. Because when we talk about it as a family, and we do whenever we get together, like my parents are all game for it, but then it just doesn't happen and it hasn't happened, do.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You need to really kind of show up with a pad of paper and a pen and you know, place it on the table in front of her?

[Steve Marsh]

Right. Like let's do this now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so in a bid to do this now, I tell Steve to phone his mom and tell her to clear her schedule because his wedding friend Jonathan is boarding a plane to Minnesota and heading straight to their house to make sure she writes that letter.

[Steve Marsh]

I just think we need a little help, you know.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah, well what you need is your mother to get off her ass and do this. So who is now who is this guy? Just tell me again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

After the break. This guy pays a visit to the marshes. Tired of losing weight, only to gain it all back. The weight loss [e-mail] have done the research. Slimrank.com ranks the safest, most effective GLP1 programs that get and keep the weight off for good. Stop watching the scale go up and down. Go to slimrank.com and pick America's number one weight loss program today. Slimrank.com that's S L-I-M R A N K.com your dream body is just a few months away. Slimrank.com hi in Minneapolis. I pick Steve up in my airport rental and we head to his parents house for some letter writing. He's nervous, which is not helped by my economy sized car. You have enough room?

[Steve Marsh]

I think it's as far back as it goes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How tall a man are you?

[Steve Marsh]

I'm six four.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Steve struggles to shoehorn his body into the passenger seat. Do you want to sit in the back seat? No, you could. I'm sorry.

[Steve Marsh]

So good.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Although Steve says it's all good. Thanks to my Minnesotan to American translator app, I know that he's in fact deeply resentful. You're gonna have to direct me cause I don't know where your parents live. But wouldn't it be weird if I did. We arrive at Steve's parents place. It's a one story rambler, cluttered and cozy.

[Kalilah Holt]

Hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi Jonathan. Hi there.

[Kalilah Holt]

I'm Gene.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi Jonathan. I'm Pete. Hi Pete. How the hell are you bud? We settle in around the kitchen table. Pete makes his way through his daily two pots of coffee, and Jean quietly stares down at a blank piece of paper to help spur her letter writing. I ask how she and Pete first met, and Jean becomes animated, telling me about a party at which Pete stumbled in late with a group of friends.

[Kalilah Holt]

They were all drunk. I can't remember if he kissed me on the knee and bit me in the ankle or vice versa.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's like what the serpent did in the biblical story.

[Kalilah Holt]

I think so. And I should have never eaten that apple.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Soon after, Gene moved into a new apartment building, where, in a delightful sitcom twist, Pete was living right down the hall. That Thanksgiving, Pete stopped by Jean's place, drank her entire bottle of Windsor, then drunkenly proceeded to show the dinner guests his gun. Guns are no big thing for me. Right, Because I got them laying all over the place. To illustrate, Pete reaches on top of the kitchen cupboard and pulls down a.45 automatic. He places it on the table next to the pie that Steve brought. How many guns do you have hidden around the house? There's one over on the fireplace. 20. Downstairs. The party, the bottle of Windsor, the gun. These are all parts of the Marsh family origin story that Steve knows well. But the part of the story that Steve has never heard is. Is how his parents went from a casual fling to a decades long marriage.

[Kalilah Holt]

I got pregnant. Mm. I went home and told my mother and she flipped out on me. I remember leaving. I was down the basement with my mother in the laundry room. I just remember running up the stairs and crying and getting in the car and driving back to my apartment because I was trash and her mind.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Jean came from a strict Catholic family. When she got pregnant, her mother told her she could only visit home after dark, carrying a coat in front of her stomach. At one point during the pregnancy, Jean slipped on the ice and had to go to the hospital for hemorrhaging.

[Kalilah Holt]

And my mother came into the hospital and said, you can't even have a baby right. I mean, she was so disappointed in me. I don't think she ever forgave me for that. That's the one thing I said to her before she died, is I am sorry for disappointing you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Leisha was born premature, so the doctors kept her at the hospital for a week. This meant Jean ended up spending a week with her newborn daughter.

[Kalilah Holt]

I remember holding her and crying and telling her, you know, that I hoped she'd have a good life and said I was sorry that I couldn't keep her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

After that week, Jean signed away her parental Rights.

[Kalilah Holt]

I didn't think I could raise a child by myself. But she never said what. He never said, hey, let's get married and raise this baby. And I never said it either. But his mother, Alice, just took me in as this. You know, I felt like I was part of the family. So I felt this family love that I wasn't getting from my own family, you know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pete's mom told Jean how much the whole family liked her, how they hoped she would be the one. And that painful time brought Jean and Pete closer. They ended up really falling in love. And eventually they did get married. And all this time, Lisha, responsible for them growing into love together, having three more kids, being a family for going on 50 years, was out there somewhere, living a different life with a different family.

[Kalilah Holt]

And I don't know that dad and I have. We've never sat down like this and talked about it.

[Steve Marsh]

Right.

[Kalilah Holt]

It's just kind of something that happened 48 years ago.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For 48 years, Jean has quietly marked Leisha's birthday by repeating the same silent prayer. I hope she's having a good life. And it's that hope that ironically made Jean think twice about ever searching for Leisha. She told herself that if Leisha was happy, she didn't need to disrupt that happiness by introducing her to the marshes and their chaos.

[Kalilah Holt]

Our family was so loud and so, you know, drug use and, you know, not going to school, and it seems like there was always so much going on. Did I really want to bring somebody else into that? It was problems that I was bringing her into. More problems.

[Steve Marsh]

It was hectic.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yep. It was more than hectic. Steve and I'd go do my Avon door to door, and somebody would say, would you like to come in for a minute? And I'd sit down. And I always said it was like I was sitting down in their beige. You know, they had this peace, full house, neat, nothing out of place. And then I'd walk in here and it'd be, like, jangled.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So while Steve's motivation for seeking out Leesha is pretty simple, he has a sister and he wants to meet her. For Gene, it's more complicated. Her greatest hope is that Lisha is happy and well, that she did the right thing in giving her up. But if Leisha is good, didn't fall into drugs, did do well in school, and had a good life in the beige, then trouble wasn't something genetic, a fate that runs through the marsh blood. It was, to Jean's thinking, something in the parenting, her parenting.

[Kalilah Holt]

I just. I want the kids more or less to be prepared that she may not want anything to do with us. I'm open to meeting her. I'm open to just pictures. I'm open to having her tell me I'm a piece of shit. That's fine. I'm willing to do whatever she wants because I feel the ball is in her court. Worst case. Case scenario would be if she had passed away and I never tried. Did you want to have pie now?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, should I get the ice cream? You want ice cream? Steve serves the mixed berry pie that he brought and turns us to the matter at hand.

[Steve Marsh]

So you want to try writing the letter? Yeah, we should do it now. So.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yes. Because your mother is a procrastinator, I am too. But you probably got it from me.

[Steve Marsh]

If Leisha's the procrastinator, too, that's the only way we'll know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Jean finds it easier to talk than to write, so Steve offers to type the letter as Jean speaks it aloud. Then she can copy it down by hand. Jean stares down at the table, trying to get started.

[Kalilah Holt]

I don't know what to say. I feel bad because we stayed together.

[Steve Marsh]

Why?

[Kalilah Holt]

And I feel like it's been 48 years now. Why are you coming around now? Is what she'll be thinking.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, just say, hi, how are you?

[Kalilah Holt]

I remember your name. I remember your birthday. I remember holding you and telling you that I wanted you to have a good life. Leisha. I'm stumbling for words, wondering how to. Probably because it's been so many years.

[Steve Marsh]

But wondering how to.

[Kalilah Holt]

I mean, how to explain the fact that I haven't tried to contact you all this year.

[Steve Marsh]

I don't think we need to get that heavy. I'm your mom.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Give me a call.

[Steve Marsh]

But also, you do want to. You want to acknowledge why this was meaningful to you. You know, you're like. It's tough. God.

[Kalilah Holt]

Three years after you were born, your father and I were married or got back together. While we got back together right after. Oh, God. See, now it all seems so stupid.

[Steve Marsh]

But, like, you can't change the past.

[Kalilah Holt]

No, I can't.

[Steve Marsh]

And you needed to live through this in order to have perspective on it.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah.

[Steve Marsh]

So three years after you're born, your father and I were married and now.

[Kalilah Holt]

Have two sons and a daughter who are open to making contact or does open sound.

[Steve Marsh]

I think all of us would like to meet you if you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If.

[Steve Marsh]

When you're ready. I don't think maybe it needs to be any more than that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's good.

[Kalilah Holt]

And then just put Our names, hugs and kisses.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We all watch as Gene copies the letter over by hand. You did good, Gene.

[Kalilah Holt]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Dear Steve and I head back to the rental. For a while, we just sit there, think that they're gonna get those forms off.

[Steve Marsh]

It's going to happen this week for sure.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Really? You think so?

[Steve Marsh]

Yeah, I think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen in the next month or the one after that. Partly because Steve hasn't been spurring his mom. Since we all sat down in Gene's kitchen, Steve has developed second thoughts about contacting Leisha.

[Steve Marsh]

I'm just nervous that she's, like, angry about the way things turned out. And I'm nervous of, like, what kind of impact that will have on my mom.

[Kalilah Holt]

I've had some conversations with friends.

[Steve Marsh]

It's like, what are you doing this for?

[Kalilah Holt]

I don't know.

[Steve Marsh]

Like, there's real potential for sadness.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Two more months pass, and I'm having trouble being a spur to Steve's spurring. Hey, Steve, it's Jonathan speaking. Just calling to check in. I can't get ahold of anyone. Mr. And Mrs. Marsh, this is the man who came over to your home some time ago. Another two months go by and still no movement. And so I decide that maybe it's better to just leave them be. Maybe the marshes would rather just forget the whole thing and. And go back to being the same marshes they always were.

[Kalilah Holt]

Hello, Jean? Yes, Hi, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And then after a half a year of foot dragging, I unexpectedly get word that Jean has mailed the letter and the application. From there, a social worker was assigned to the case, her job, to find Leisha and ask if she's open to receiving Jeanne's letter. And not long after that, the social worker gave Jean an update.

[Kalilah Holt]

She got a call from Leisha, and she said she was very open to seeing my letter.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Kalilah Holt]

Do you guys want coffee?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Hello. How are you doing, buddy?

[Steve Marsh]

I'll have a coffee, Mom. I brought cannolis.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And back at the marshes to catch up, once Leisha said she was open to seeing Jeanne's letter, the social worker mailed it onto her. But after that, Jeanne heard nothing for months. Then one afternoon at work, Jeanne got an email from the social worker. The subject heading read the letter you've been waiting for. Attached was a scanned copy of a letter from Leisha.

[Kalilah Holt]

Dear Jean and Pete, thank you for your patience while I formulate my first response to your letter. My name is Natalie, and I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Leisha is now Natalie, and it turns Out. She grew up just 20 miles from where the Marshes live. Her adoptive parents are even graduates of the same high school as Jean. Growing up, Natalie always knew she was adopted, and she loved the parents who raised her. Natalie is now married with with two kids.

[Kalilah Holt]

The best advice I've received since I opened your letter was to take it slow. And then she sent a picture when she was a little girl.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You see a resemblance?

[Steve Marsh]

Oh, she's definitely a Marsh man.

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah. Dear Natalie, Pete and I were so happy to receive your letter and picture. It was truly an answer to my prayers. Let me know if you have any questions. I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so a correspondence begins.

[Kalilah Holt]

Dear Jean and Pete. Dear Natalie, who did I get my auburn hair from? Pete was a redhead. Who can I thank for my unibrow? When I was young, my grandfather had very bushy eyebrows, so he's probably the culprit. Love, Natalie. Love, Jean and Pete.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Natalie is taking it slow. She's cautious, and Jean is following her lead. But sometimes it can get overwhelming.

[Kalilah Holt]

Dear Natalie, we want to wish you the happiest of birthdays on the 17th. I've wished it every year since you were born, and I'm so happy I can finally tell you. I hope someday we can meet, but until then, know you've been loved. Pete and Jean.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Natalie's responses are gracious.

[Kalilah Holt]

Dear Gene and Pete, My kids constantly ask me about the day they were born. We moms think about those moments always. Someday you will have to tell me about our day.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But there were a lot of some days, no specific plans. Even after months of correspondence, Jean and Natalie are still going through Stacy, the social worker. They don't exchange phone numbers. They don't even know each other's email addresses.

[Kalilah Holt]

It's tentative. I mean, I've had a relationship with these three kids for 40 years, you know, and I haven't had that with her. And sometimes that's sad, you know, that we don't have that. But I think we'll get there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You want to get there?

[Kalilah Holt]

Yeah, I would like to get there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Jean finds herself staring at Natalie's picture while she's at work, idly thinking about what the little girl in the photo's childhood was like. And then comes the guilt in not having been able to give her what she needed. And all the while, Natalie is so close. Why don't you call her up and say, come on over?

[Kalilah Holt]

No, because she doesn't want that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Then we all don't live to be 100 years old at the same time.

[Steve Marsh]

That's true. Yeah, you are.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're run out of time pretty soon. While for Pete, it's pretty straight ahead, for Jean, it's more complicated. Jean wants Natalie to enter her life, but at the same time, she worries about what Natalie will make of that life. How will Jeanne be able to have Natalie over to her home? In Jeanne's mind, the place is always so untidy. The grouting in the bathroom unfinished, the tiles in the entryway in need of repair. So while Jean's wait for Natalie is filled with hope, it's also filled with fear. Time ticks by. Natalie and Jean continue to exchange letters, and eventually Natalie decides they don't have to go through Stacy, the social worker, anymore. They can email each other directly. And a few months after that, Jean asks Natalie for her phone number. I just want to be able to hear your voice sometimes, Gene says. And Natalie says yes. Steve's wedding is a month away. It's been a full year since Natalie received that first letter, and Steve wants to invite her to the wedding, but Jeanne doesn't think a big family event is the right setting for everyone to meet for the first time. So Jeanne asks Natalie if they can all go out for dinner. Natalie writes back and says, I think we can make that happen. Hi. How are you? Good. Good dog. Good doggie. And today's the day I arrive at Steve's house as he gets ready to meet Natalie for dinner. His fiance Maggie and his brother Kevin are there, too. Nice to see you. Good to see you. I'm Jonathan.

[Steve Marsh]

Kevin.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How are you? Good. Steve has lent Kevin a pair of jeans because Kevin was wearing shorts and feared they might not be appropriate for meeting your sister for the first time. Steve is still getting dressed.

[Steve Marsh]

This is my only pair of clean pants at the moment. I don't want my new sister to smell me. You know what I mean? That'd be awful, right? So I want to appear to be clean.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Since the Marshes are worried about making a good impression, they've barred me and my microphone from the dinner. This in spite of my important work documenting and interloping. Instead of saying F all of you rotten F s, I tell Steve that it's all good. Hey, I'm getting pretty good at this Minnesota talk.

[Kalilah Holt]

I think we should leave in five or 10 minutes.

[Steve Marsh]

Okay. We should not smoke weed. I already did earlier. I took Visine that I'm fine.

[Kalilah Holt]

Oh.

[Steve Marsh]

Turn the radio off.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Steve has made a reservation at a pizza restaurant. On the drive there, he worries, but as usual, it isn't for himself.

[Steve Marsh]

I worry about my mom.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The worry has always been twofold. Firstly, what if Natalie's life hasn't turned out well and it's all Jean's fault for having given her up? But based on Jean and Natalie's correspondence, Natalie has a nice husband, sweet kids and a career that keeps her busy flying to far off places like Mexico City and Singapore. So now, with that first worry allayed, the second worry rears its head. What if Natalie is not only not in bad shape, but. But in great shape, all due to Gene's lack of parenting. In other words, Steve's now worried that as far as Gene might believe, it isn't the genes.

[Steve Marsh]

It's Gene, a person with the same genetic makeup as your three kids who did get all these things. So, yeah, there's. I think there's some pain there, man. Like there's some pain with my mom. Like that she failed us or something. Or that we failed her. Oh shit, it's 6:18. Are we gonna make it?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, but isn't it supposed to be 6:45 that you guys are meeting?

[Steve Marsh]

6:30? 6:30.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, but your folks will be there.

[Steve Marsh]

Are they? Our family is predisposed towards being late all the time.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A few blocks from the restaurant, Steve drops me off at the side of the road. He says they'll let me know how it goes. Okay, bye. You guys have fun. Later I'll learn that Pete, Jean and Megan were uncharacteristically on time and are there to greet Natalie and her husband when they arrive, Jean hugs Natalie and introduces her to Megan. Natalie and Megan stare at each other. They look so similar. I wish I could wear my hair like that, Natalie says, and Megan smiles. Steve, Maggie and Kevin arrive as the table is being prepared. While they wait, they all make nervous small talk. Pete fills the silence by talking about how old his shoes are, about fishing. The others join in talking about goldfish. They've owned the relative merits of Pac man versus Ms. Pac man restaurants they like. They compare their heights. Eventually, the host leads them outside to a round wooden table built around a tree. The group orders pizza and wine. They all cheers. Everyone has questions for Natalie. They don't totally understand what her job is, but it has something to do with selling accounting software all over the world. They get the impression that she's in charge of things. Natalie has a confidence. She sits beside Kevin, who shows her a photo of himself coming in second in a hot dog eating contest. Natalie seems impressed. During the salad course, Jean tells the story of how when Steve first Found out about Natalie, he joked. Thanks for keeping me, Mom. It's not too late, Natalie interjects. You could still be abandoned. Everyone laughs. Natalie shares the Marsh's dark sense of humor. It looks like Natalie is coming to Steve's wedding. It's the kind of night where it seems like it could rain at any minute, so Jean grabs the check. Steve sees the look on her face as she glances it over. Mom, he says quietly so Natalie won't hear, will help you. The kids all go home that night and request Natalie's friendship. On Facebook, Jean and Pete drive home, with Jean smiling all the way.

[Kalilah Holt]

When we came home that night, Pete was opening the door, and I just put my hand on his shoulder and I said, you know, God looked out for her all these years, and so we've been blessed. We truly have. It was joyous. All the kids were so comfortable. Everybody was asking questions. There was a lot of laughter. There was a lot of, you know, joking and talking, and it was very emotional. And there's still a lot of thought process there that's gonna maybe be with me all my life. But I know that she had a good life and she's got a wonderful life now. I couldn't have asked for anything more. I really couldn't have.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You felt like you wanted Natalie to have a good life, but that was complicated because you felt like it might reflect on your parenting in some way. So I'm wondering, how do you feel about that now?

[Kalilah Holt]

You still have guilt, but I think I just realized that no matter what I did or didn't do, they've all grown up to be wonderful human beings and we can move on.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All the things Jean had worried about, that Natalie might resent her, that the family might be too much for her. In the end, didn't matter. That night at the restaurant, things were simple. They were all just happy to be together. But there's still one thing. For months, Steve's priority has been his mom's feelings. The effect all of this is having on her. All the while, though, a feeling of his own was slowly taking shape. At the pizza restaurant, Steven wanted to say something to Natalie all night, but he couldn't find the words.

[Steve Marsh]

What I really wish I would have told her is thank you, man. Thank you for you existing. Like, your miracle of coming to the.

[Kalilah Holt]

World and the way it happened, like.

[Steve Marsh]

Brought my parents back together.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But then how do you thank someone, a stranger, for giving your family life, for giving you life?

[Steve Marsh]

Hey, how are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Good. Good to see you. Good to see you in my Role as loyal spur. I've invited Steve and Natalie to my office so Steve can at least give it a try. It's the first time Steve and Natalie have gotten to talk one on one since this all began. I never thought. I never thought someone would search for me. This is Natalie.

[Steve Marsh]

Wow. You never even considered that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Steve explains that during the search, the Marshes worried that they might not live up to Natalie's expectations.

[Steve Marsh]

You know, you're such an accomplished person.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, gosh, my LinkedIn profile is really doing its job. I'm a PR major.

[Steve Marsh]

I mean, honestly, like, you seem like such a funny, like, even keel person. You know, like, like you have a wicked sense of humor. It's just, it's cool. It's cool to, like, you're funny. You know, you're wearing. You have an iPhone watch, and you're killing it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know what I mean? That was a gift. Everything's a gift. My husband, that's al. No, but don't put me on a pedestal. I don't deserve it. Natalie's uncomfortable with her life being held up as a success story. She tries to explain that her house had its own share of chaos. Her brother faced some of the same challenges with drugs and other troubles that the Marsh kids faced. It feels like what she's trying to say is blood parenting. I don't know why things turned out the way they have. But Steve is undeterred in his effort to offer Natalie credit. And so tentatively, he gets to the thing he's been trying to say for a while now.

[Steve Marsh]

I mean, I. I feel like it's weird to thank somebody who didn't elect to be adopted, but, like, maybe my parents would have never gotten back together if. If it wasn't for you. You brought them together. Like, I think it was kind of a fling kind of situation. And it turned into a, like a 45 year marriage, you know, 50 year. Like, I don't know the exact stats.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But Natalie can see that Steve is struggling, but she's struggling too. If Steve is trying to say thanks for my life, how does she simply say, you're welcome? So instead, Natalie offers thanks of her own in the way of a story about Steve's mom and her mom. When my mom was around, she and I were really, really close. She wanted to think, you know, I wish I could thank her. She kept saying, I just wish I could thank her.

[Steve Marsh]

Oh, man.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Right. And when she passed away in 2004, she couldn't.

[Steve Marsh]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So the first thing I wanted to do was do the thinking. That decision set the trajectory of my life. I'm so. I'm so lucky to be where I'm at in the end. Steve and Natalie are both grateful for the same thing. The family that they ended up with. Everyone always asked, well, have you ever thought of reaching out? I always had the answer. I'm like, no, I'm good. I have a great family. You know, once I open that door, I can never close it. When I receives the letter, I can honestly say I didn't have this figured out. And I thought about what my. My path would be if I'm at a crossroad of do I. Do I pursue this or do I let it go? As Natalie speaks, you can see a thought flash across Steve's face. All this time, he's been trying to thank Natalie for something she didn't even decide, rather than for the thing that she did decide.

[Steve Marsh]

When you put it like that way, when you put it like that, like, you did have a choice here whether to even talk to us, you know, like, you could have been like, no, you risked. You opened the door. And so, yeah, I guess, Natalie, I do thank you for that, man. Like, the way that you've been with my mom has been super cool, man, and, oh, I thank you for that.

[Kalilah Holt]

Oh, well, I.

[Steve Marsh]

Like, she kind of deserves, like, I think, like, cool stuff in life, you know, and, like, you've been really cool, man.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, thank you.

[Steve Marsh]

That's choice.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi. It's been two and a half years since the search for Natalie began. And in that time, Natalie's interactions with the marshes have been based around occasions. Gene's birthday, Steve's wedding. But today, they're all just hanging out. Steve and his new wife, Maggie, wanted to have everyone over for a backyard barbecue, even me. On our way to the yard, Steve gives me a quick tour of the house. His shelves loaded with books, his plants.

[Steve Marsh]

This is ayahuasca plant.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Uh, is that indigenous to this area?

[Steve Marsh]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Natalie shows up with her husband and two kids. Pete, the tough guy who thought about Natalie every day for almost 50 years, is there to greet them. Well, how you guys been?

[Kalilah Holt]

Good.

[Steve Marsh]

Oh, God, I gotta have a hug. Absolutely.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, there you go. Shortly after, Kevin shows up with a bottle of vodka and a big bag of Frisbees.

[Steve Marsh]

Who wants to play Frisbee?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey. And then Megan, who heads straight for Natalie.

[Steve Marsh]

Hey, Meg.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But there's one person who's running late.

[Kalilah Holt]

Should I call your mom and see where she is, or.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I don't know. As it turns out, Gene is still stuck at the grocery store. Buying some last minute stuff for the party. Classic. Steve says the Marshes are unorganized, chronically late. And maybe that's true. Or maybe Gene is pacing the aisles, procrastinating, nervous about what Natalie might make of how the Marshes live with her ayahuasca plants and vodka frisbees.

[Kalilah Holt]

Hello, hello, hello. How are you?

[Steve Marsh]

How's it going?

[Kalilah Holt]

Good evening.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But in the end, Jean doesn't wait years, weeks, days, or hours. She's only late by 15 minutes. How is the fishing trip, Lefty? Good.

[Steve Marsh]

We caught a lot of walleyes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Maybe Jean wasn't procrastinating at all. Maybe she wanted to show up late, to be the last one to walk into the backyard with everyone already there and see the whole family hanging out, joking and talking. Everyone just happy to be together. Oh, my gosh, look at that.

[Steve Marsh]

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home.

[Kalilah Holt]

Now that the last month's rant is scheming with the damaged deposit.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Take this moment to decide if we meant it, if we tried.

[Kalilah Holt]

Or felt around for far too much from things that accidentally tied.

[Steve Marsh]

I got a message from Natalie yesterday. I got a text. Happy sibling day. It was a sibling day yesterday.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Are you guys in regular touch?

[Steve Marsh]

Oh, yeah. Like, we have a family text thread named after the episode. It's called the Marshes. But, like, just. My mom was over to babysit Monroe last night.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is he your son?

[Steve Marsh]

My son, yeah. And my mom was just, like, on the phone with Natalie, and there's Natalie, you know, they're talking about. Natalie was talking about work. Like, they're. It's just cool to see, man. You know, like, my mom has a relationship with her. I have a relationship with her. I. I went to her son's basketball game and brought my son.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's really nice that you're doing stuff like that.

[Steve Marsh]

Well, I wanted. I wanted to knit our families together, you know, in a way. And I asked Natalie if she would be Monroe's godmother.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, man, that's so nice to hear. What would she say?

[Steve Marsh]

Yeah, she. She was down, you know, she's like a late in the game kind of gift from the universe.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's really nice, Steve.

[Steve Marsh]

It worked out, man. Turned out to have a really happy ending.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. And we're friends as a result.

[Steve Marsh]

Yeah. And then we're friends as a result.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. I live here now.

[Steve Marsh]

And now you guys live in our neighborhood.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, that's right, we do. Yeah.

[Steve Marsh]

Do you want to babysit Monroe on Tuesday?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, always. That'd be great. Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll be back next week with another encore presentation, and along with it, another update from our guest. If Emily's Emily. I mean, chances are. Yeah, if we're around Emily. This is an I heart podcast.