2026 Update: Christina

Summary

Heavyweight Podcast – “2026 Update: Christina”

Host: Jonathan Goldstein
Original Episode Date: [approx. 2017] | Update Air Date: May 7, 2026
Podcast Production: Pushkin Industries

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Episode Overview

This episode revisits Christina’s story, originally one of season two’s standout episodes. Host Jonathan Goldstein checks in with Christina nearly nine years after her first appearance, reflecting on the pivotal confrontation with her former foster mother, Isabel, about a life-altering decision from Christina’s youth: being forced to quit basketball—the one thing that gave her a sense of confidence and hope. The update explores what has changed for Christina since that original conversation, how she has made peace with her past, and what forgiveness, acceptance, and moving forward look like. The tone is characteristic of Heavyweight: contemplative, wry, and gently probing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode Setup & Nostalgia

• Jonathan begins by reminiscing about the original Christina episode as a turning point for the show:
  • “This was the first time that I was actually, like, traveling out in the world to meet someone.” (00:46 – Jonathan)
• Christina and Jonathan lightly banter about the emotional vulnerability inherent in these journeys (01:09-01:43).

2. Christina’s Background

• Christina grew up in western Canada under difficult circumstances:
  • Raised by a single mother with schizophrenia; endured instability, violence, and neglect.
  • “She started becoming violent…there’s no food in the house…she wouldn’t do laundry…so I started stealing clothes just so I could have clean clothes for school.” (07:21-08:17 – Christina)
• Christina left home to become a live-in nanny at age 12, before social services removed her and placed her in foster care with Isabel (08:32).

3. Life with Foster Mother Isabel

• Isabel is depicted as strict, favoring her biological grandson David while Christina struggled for approval.
  • “If I was five minutes late for curfew, I would be grounded for a month…it felt like I was always grounded and afraid all the time…” (09:33 – Christina)
• Christina found solace and confidence on the basketball court, becoming a team captain (10:27), contrasting sharply with her meek off-court personality.

4. Basketball: Promise and Loss

• Basketball represented hope, escape, and the possibility of college via scholarship:
  • “It was, like, the only time where I felt powerful.” (11:30 – Christina)
• This hope was dashed when Isabel issued an ultimatum: Christina needed a B average to keep playing. Struggling with certain subjects, she failed to reach this standard and was forced to quit (12:43).
  • “She took something from me that I’ve not been able to get back…that passion for something…this huge dream…” (13:49–13:57 – Christina)

5. The Decision’s Lingering Pain

• Christina admits she has not forgiven Isabel for this, and wants to understand Isabel’s motivation (14:19).
• “I want to just hear her say that she just genuinely wanted me to have better grades. But I know that’s just such BS…not letting me play basketball, I’m having such a hard time letting go of that…” (15:08 – Christina)

6. Confronting the Past: The Visit to Isabel (21:27 – 40:42)

• Jonathan and Christina travel to see Isabel, now 95 and still sharp-tongued:
  • Isabel characterizes Christina as “this wild looking thing” in need of “training to live in a home.” (24:44 – Isabel)
  • Isabel makes her favoritism of David explicit: “He is the most perfect person I’ve ever raised.” (25:58 – Isabel), sidelining Christina’s experiences even in the present conversation.
• Christina hesitantly raises the basketball incident:
  • Isabel claims not to remember: “I don’t remember that at all.” (28:43–28:52 – Isabel)
  • Isabel had no sense of Christina’s attachment to basketball: “I didn’t know it, no.” (29:38 – Isabel)
• Reflection on their shared, yet different, forms of loss:
  • Isabel gave up school early due to family obligations. She equates education with self-sufficiency, believing this motivated her push for grades (32:34).
• The conversation eventually leads to some common ground, as both acknowledge the trauma of growing up with mentally ill parents (35:30–36:40).
• Ultimately, Isabel exhibits little regret:
  • “I have no regrets about it…It would depend what kind of a mood I’m in.” (37:14–37:43 – Isabel)

Notable Quotes:

• “Regretting something is a waste of time. You move on, find something else to be passionate about.” (38:51 – Isabel)
• “It wasn’t everything I needed, but I feel like that’s how she shows love…in a way that I understand now, whereas before I just felt like she just didn’t even like me.” (41:19 – Christina)

7. Basketball Redemption (42:48 – 45:00)

• Jonathan surprises Christina with a basketball game, providing a cathartic moment:
  • “But when she gets going, it seems to come back to her…There was a different side to Christina that was coming out on the court.” (44:02 – Jonathan)
• Christina and her husband Levi play like kids, momentarily freed from the weight of the past.

8. The 2026 Update: Revisiting the Past (46:06 – 52:18)

• Jonathan checks in with Christina in Portland, nearly nine years after their confrontation with Isabel.
• Isabel has since passed away; Christina visited her before the end. No “deathbed regrets,” but the exchange was kind.
• Christina reflects on the process of forgiveness and letting go of old stories:
  • “I blamed her for ruining my life for a lot of years. And in order for me to move forward, I needed to let go of that, you know, old kind of story.” (47:58 – Christina)
  • “It’s a really dangerous thing to guess what our life would have or could have been like…that kind of steals the joy from the present moment.” (48:31 – Christina)
• The on-air confrontation had a healing effect, offering perspective to both Christina and her husband Levi:
  • “After our interview, Levi got really emotional and was like, I can’t imagine how hard that was for you…gave him a little bit more perspective…maybe a bit more compassion.” (49:42 – Christina)
• Lighthearted note: Christina and Levi have combined their last names for fun (“Whizzingham”), continuing their playful spirit.

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Most Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Christina’s lost passion:
  • “She took something from me that I’ve not been able to get back.” (13:49 – Christina)
• On the futility of regret:
  • “Regretting something is a waste of time. You move on, find something else to be passionate about.” (38:51 – Isabel)
• On the fundamental question of parental love:
  • “It wasn’t everything I needed…but I feel like that’s how she shows love.” (41:19 – Christina)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Original Episode Framing: 00:12-01:46
• Christina’s Backstory: 06:16-09:55
• Basketball Becomes Lifeline: 10:27-12:15
• Forced to Quit & Aftermath: 12:43-14:19
• Confrontation Plan: 15:35-16:20
• Meeting Isabel – Tension & History: 21:27-28:14
• Christina Asks Her Question: 28:18-30:00
• Isabel's Justification, Shared Childhood Trauma: 30:36-36:40
• Regret & Final Reflections: 37:14-40:42
• Cathartic Basketball Game: 42:48-45:00
• 2026 Update – Christina’s Reflections: 46:06-52:18

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Episode Tone & Language

True to Heavyweight’s established tone, the episode weaves together warmth, dry humor, vulnerability, and moments of raw emotional honesty. Jonathan’s questions are gentle but persistent, while Christina is candid both about her pain and her process of healing.

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Summary Takeaway

This update on Christina’s episode explores how the pain of old wounds dulls—and how new insight and self-forgiveness can bring peace, even without apology or closure from those who’ve hurt us. Christina's journey encapsulates a universal challenge: making peace with an imperfect past and recognizing love in forms we may not have once recognized.

“I just made a decision that I was done letting my past define me or steal my joy, essentially.” — Christina (48:31)

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For More

• To hear more updates, subscribe to Heavyweight’s newsletter (details in episode).
• Photos and bonus content offered via Pushkin’s newsletter and Patreon.

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Produced by Pushkin Industries. Host & Storyteller: Jonathan Goldstein.

Transcript

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pushkin.

[Christina Wismer]

Hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know, when you meditate, you're supposed to acknowledge the breath and put a name to it. Like, that was a small breath. That was a big breath. If I had to put a name to that hello, I would say hesitantly, cheerful. Yeah, I'll take that. That's a part of my meditation. Is naming your hellos kind of weird, but.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

All right, we're gonna revisit another great episode today.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hit me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's called Christina.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, yeah. It's truly one of my favorite episodes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, it's a really good one.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, yeah. I love it. I will say this, and maybe you can confirm this fact. Check me on this, but this was an early season two. And. And up until this point, I had largely worked with people that I already knew, like friends and family. And this. This was the first time that I was actually, like, traveling out in the world to meet someone.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah, that is true.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. And I'll never forget, but when they met me at the airport, Christina and her husband Levi, I just remember, like, seeing the look of hope and respect almost in their eyes.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And I just felt like, oh, my God, these poor people. Like, I don't deserve that look at all. But I really better get it together.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And then.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You've gotten it together for 10 years now. You know what I do? I look at myself in the bathroom mirror and I slap myself in the face and I say, get it together, boy.

[Christina Wismer]

Well, it's working.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I guess keep doing that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Well, enjoy the episode.

[Christina Wismer]

And afterwards, we're gonna hear from Christina

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

what she's up to now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yes, we're gonna get a nice update about what Christina's life has been like and the impact that participating in the epis had on her. Oh, but if we could reverse the process and eat our dessert before we move on to the main course. Okay, a word from our sponsors.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

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[Isabel]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, do you have a copy of TV Guide?

[Isabel]

No. Well, why?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I can't find my copy, and I was wondering what was on tv. Don't you remember? Don't you remember? Don't you. Wait, wait. Don't you remember calling people up on the phone?

[Isabel]

I do remember that. Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Just. Just to see what was on. I remember calling out my Aunt Tilly because I was too. I was too lazy to get up off the couch to look for the TV Guide. So I just called her up. Poor woman could hardly walk, and she had to search around for a TV Guide.

[Isabel]

All right, I gotta go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight Today's episode, Christina. This is the best of all possible worlds, my father was fond of saying. The words were spoken contentedly, often while reclining in a Barca lounger, belt buckle undone, after a large meal of baked beans and lamb chops. But what did my father know of other worlds? He'd held down the same job and was married to the same woman for decades. Plus, he hardly left the house. But what he did know was that this world had one thing over all of those other worlds. It existed for my father. That was enough to make it best. I, on the other hand, am not won over so easily. Sure, existence is a nice quality, a fine quality, but going so far as to call a world that contains both soul patches and puddles the best possible anything seems a Little extreme. And so imagining other worlds the same, only better, is just too irresistible. In spite of the pain such thinking inevitably invites. Why don't we start from the beginning?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Christina. And like me, she knows this world can use a few tweaks. Overall, she says her life hasn't been a bad one. It's just not the one she was meant to live. She's worked as a waitress, a receptionist, as a home care worker. The kinds of jobs you do, but not necessarily the kind you dream about. Lately she's been helping run her husband's company.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's a disc golfing backpack company.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Say. Sorry, say that again. It's a what?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Disc golf backpack company.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What is disc golf?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's like ball golf, but instead of balls and clubs, you have Frisbees.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When you say ball golf, you're talking about golf golf.

[Christina Wismer]

Like regular golf.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. I've never heard it referred to distinguished as ball golf, but I like, the

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

only disc golfers call it ball golf.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So. But how do you. So how do you get a frisbee in a golf hole?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, it's actually not a hole, it's a basket.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh my goodness. Before she started pining after better worlds, Christina was focused on just one. The world of small town western Canada.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I lived with my mom. She was a single mom. My dad left when I was around 1 and my mom was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina was just a kid, so a lot of it's now fuzzy, but she remembers bits of things. Her mom going off her meds and beginning to hear voices. Her mom waking her in the middle of the night and saying they had to leave right away. She remembers running with her mom down dark streets.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She started becoming violent and she would just, you know, hit me with the phone handle or this one time she came after me with a high heeled shoe. There's no food in the house. She wouldn't do laundry. Like the dirty clothes would pile up in the living room. Like I remember this massive mound of dirty clothes and, and I remember this kid made fun of me for having dirty pants. And so I started stealing clothes just so I could have clean clothes to go to school.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When you're a kid trying to survive on your own, the unthinkable can start to seem normal. To escape her house, Christina took a job caring for two boys not much younger than herself. She became a 12 year old live in nanny.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I ended up moving in with this family and looking after the boys. They paid me a little bit and I quit school to be a Nanny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When she stopped showing up at school, social services removed Christina from the nannying house. But instead of bringing her back to her mom, they took her to a foster home. She was sent to live with an older couple and their grandson. They lived on the fancier side of town in a house decorated with candle holders and decorative pistols. The the foster mother was a woman named Isabel. Her grandson David was the golden boy who could do no wrong. From day one, Christina struggled for Isabel's approval.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

My foster mother and I kind of butted heads a little bit or a lot.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Although Isabel was only an inch taller, Christina was scared of her. Her foster mother communicated through rules and punishments.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She was very strict. If I was five minutes late for curfew, I would be grounded for a month. It felt like I was always grounded and afraid all the time and kind of walking on eggshells and, yeah, just feeling always really intimidated and scared. I was always scared.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And when she got scared, Christina would go silent. As a result, she never once stood up to Isabel. It was while living in Isabel's world that another, better world presented itself to Cristina. A world with rules that were easy to understand. A world where someone was always keeping score and keeping things fair. This was the 84 by 50 foot world of a basketball court.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I can't explain how much I was obsessed with basketball. I would practice at like 6 in the morning at the school. I would practice on weekends. I'd watch the NBA games with Clyde the Glide and Charles Barkley. And then my name was in the paper a few times. I think I have some paper clippings of like, high scoring.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I loved, loved, loved basketball on the basketball court. Christina was never scared. It was a place where, for the first time in her life, she felt in control and confident. Her foster brother David, a popular jock, spent hours helping her get better. She joined a team and quickly became a high scorer. Eventually, she was made team captain.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

They would always put me inside. Like, I would always have to guard the post.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When Christina talks about basketball, she lights up. And I want to encourage her to keep talking by asking questions. But my only real knowledge of basketball comes from watching the Harlem Globetrotters. I was in my 30s before I learned it was illegal to bring stilts onto the court. So my questions are limited. Were you tall?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, I'm only five, six. But I guess I kind of had this unrealistic view of myself where I thought I was taller than I was because off court I was like, kind of meek. And I just follow the crowd and I wouldn't like Create any waves. I didn't really have an opinion, but on the court, I was a force to be reckoned with. It was, like, the only time where I felt powerful.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was around this time that a plan began to take shape. If she kept practicing and kept winning, she'd get a basketball scholarship. Christina knew that was her only hope of getting into college.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I wanted to get out of that circle of welfare and illness and living from paycheck to paycheck and just feeling. Just being poor. It sucked.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Which brings us to the moment that, 30 years later, Christina still can't stop thinking about. She'd just come home from school when Isabel called her into the kitchen, sat her down at the table, and presented her with an ultimatum.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She said, you have to get your grades up. You have to work harder at school. And so in order for me to be able to play basketball the following year, which would have been 11th grade, I had to have an average of a B in every class. But I was really bad at math and chemistry, and. I didn't make it. I wasn't allowed to play basketball.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What she remembers most about that time was watching a lot of TV and overeating and the chores. After forcing Christina to quit the basketball team, Isabel handed her chores that felt like ironic punishments from the Judy Blume version of Dante's Inferno. She had to bake cookies for the family, but because of her weight gain, she wasn't allowed to eat any. And when she dusted the house, Isabel instructed her to pick up David's basketball trophies, dust each one, and dust the shelf underneath. All the while, Cristina felt her loss acutely of basketball and the better world it promised.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She took something from me that I've not been able to get back.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What is that thing?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And I don't even know when I say that out loud. It sounds ridiculous, but it feels like that passion for something, it dashed this huge dream that I had for my life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina still wonders why. Why did Isabel take away basketball, the only thing that really mattered to her, that would have given her a better life? But all these years, she's been too afraid to ask.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She's going to be 95 in July. The thought of talking to her about it petrifies me a little bit. Like there's still a part of me that is scared of her, which is ridiculous.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And what. What do you want?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think. Yeah, I think I want to know, like, why she made my life so difficult. If it was just to break me down, if she had some kind of thing against me and what do you

[Jonathan Goldstein]

want to hear her say.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I guess I want to just hear her say that she just genuinely wanted me to have better grades. But I know that that's just such bs. For whatever reason, I've let go of a lot of things that have happened, but for whatever reason, this one thing, the basketball thing, not letting me play basketball, I'm having such a hard time letting go of that and forgiving her. I want to let it go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you want to go talk to her?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And you want me to come?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I get really mealy mouthed when I'm in the same room as like strong willed, scary older women. I'll tell you that right now. I'm not gonna be much help.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So we're doing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sounds like we're doing it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

All right.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We're gonna go talk to that scary lady. After the break. How much mincing can a mealy mouth mince? When a mealy mouth meets a menacing Miss. Who. Who writes this stuff? I guess I do.

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, everyone. When Heavyweight returned last year, we were so encouraged by the heartfelt messages from you, our dear listeners. I can safely say that without you, Heavyweight wouldn't exist today. So thank you. And if you want to take your valuable support to an even higher invaluable level, consider signing up for Pushkin plus It makes us look good to our bosses. And you'll get to listen to Heavyweight Ad free because you'll be the sponsor plus. And this is what really puts the plus in Pushkin Plus. You'll also get bonus material. If you want to get 25% off an annual Pushkin plus subscription, head to Pushkin FM plus and use the code HEAVY25. Thanks for your support. Once I gave Christina my word that I'd help, I approached CEO and Gimlet founder Alex Bloomberg to ask if he could fly me to the British Columbian Interior to confront a 95 year old woman about something she may or may not have said some 30 years ago. To which Alex asked, why are you always standing just outside the door whenever I get out of the bathroom? And I said it was a coincidence, although I might have pronounced it coinky dink to be playful. And he asked how long this trip would take me out of the office. And I said a week. And he said to take longer if I needed it. So I was off to Canada. Terre de nos ayeu un histoire et popet des pe. How are you? Good, how are you? Levi. Nice to meet you. I'm Jonathan. Nice to meet you too. I meet Christina and her husband Levi at the Kelowna Airport in British Columbia. They just flown in from Portland and the look of trust on their faces is daunting. When meeting new people, especially people I'm about to help, I'm more comfortable with looks of skepticism or anticipatory disappointment. Trust was disconcerting. Yes, I have a reservation. It was an hour and a half drive to Isabel's, so we made our way to the airport rental desk to get a car.

[Isabel]

What's your last name?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Goldstein. G O L D. Can I just

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

ask what that is there?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, it's just we're doing a radio story, so I'm just.

[Isabel]

Do you mind turning that off and putting that away? Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If I couldn't even stand up to the car rental clerk, what hope did I have of helping Christina stand up to Isabelle?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's hot in here all of a sudden.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's been well over two years since Christina's seen Isabel. She's feeling anxious, so I try to keep the mood positive. I bet the thrift stores are really good around here. I point out foreign license plates and because we're in a foreign country, there are many pretty. Have you guys been watching this show called Little Big Lies or Big Little Lies or Little Big Lies? All set?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Isabel lives on the ground floor of a squat apartment Block mostly inhabited by seniors. We wait. When no one answers, we ring the bell. The door opens. I heard you the first time, Isabel says. Christina smiles in spite of herself. She can't help but get a kick out of Isabel. Isabel peers up at us from behind her walker. Christina's husband, Levi, makes introductions. This is Jonathan, Isabel. Hi.

[Isabel]

Hi, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How are you doing? Oh, that o Isabel is me reacting to Isabel's handshake, a surprisingly powerful thing that yanks me through the door frame. Although a diminutive woman with white puffy hair and wire rimmed glasses, Isabel's just established herself as the alpha.

[Isabel]

Come on in.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Nice to meet you.

[Isabel]

Nice to meet you, too.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Thanks for having me.

[Isabel]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You seem to be doing great.

[Isabel]

I'm doing not bad for, you know, my age, I guess.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Isabel's apartment is tidy and dim, decorated with candles that haven't been lit in years. We slowly follow her down a narrow hallway to her living room, where she seats herself in a faded blue mechanized armchair. On the drive over, Christina mentioned that Isabel is legally blind, but I misremember this as Isabel being legally deaf, so I compliment her on how well she's following along. Well, I'm not talking very loud, and you, you've been able to hear everything,

[Isabel]

so I didn't say there was anything wrong with my ears.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Right. And you did not. To recover from this faux pas, I offer Isabel a chance to feel my face, run her hands through my beard, which is something I think I saw done in the Miracle Worker. If ever you want to feel my

[Isabel]

stubble or I don't go running around

[Jonathan Goldstein]

feeling beards, I decide that now's as good a time as any to offer around the airport treats I bought during my layover. I brought some refreshments since I don't want to put Isabel out by asking for a party tray. I scoot my travel socks and underwear to the side of my backpack and proffer them straight from the bag. Some chocolate covered nuts and such.

[Isabel]

Not right now, thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No.

[Isabel]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, I'll leave them in the bag. If I've learned anything from my work in the business of forcing people to ask terrifying questions, it was that it's always best to just get it over with. Ask the question, why did you ruin my life? Get the answer, and head back to the hotel bar to eat the juiciest, fattiest T bone steak that Gimlet Media's $14 per diem allows. But staging is everything. I need to be offhand subtle. Do you, Christina? Do you have anything that you Want to ask about or. Christina looks down at her hands and tightens her lips. Of course I understand her hesitation. Isabel is even more intimidating in person than Christina made her out. And nothing about being here can possibly feel much like coming home. The walls and shelves are loaded with photos of Isabel's children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. But there isn't a single photo anywhere of her only foster child, Christina. To break the silence, I ask Isabel why she originally took Christina into her home in the first place.

[Isabel]

One of my children left a child for me to raise my grandson.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This was David.

[Isabel]

Yeah, so I thought life was just my husband and I, we were both older. It would be kind of very dull for him. So I thought that having someone else around the house would make it a little more homey for him. But I hadn't chosen Christina. Christina was brought to me and she was just there. This wild looking thing. She needed a little bit of training to live in a home. Obviously she hadn't been brought up with anything. I just thought any child living under my roof had to be taught something.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Meaning like what kind of things? Like, you mean normal? Like rules and.

[Isabel]

Well, rules. Yeah, the rule. I don't think that our rules are terribly strict, were they?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, I felt like they were strict.

[Isabel]

Well, maybe you thought so, but most kids do. But they were the same rules my kids had.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina hesitates. You can see it's hard for her to talk back to Isabel even now. But then she says, but David didn't have rules.

[Isabel]

No, he didn't need any. He is the most perfect person I've ever raised.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina, another person she happened to have raised, is seated a couple feet away from her. Christina stares ahead blankly, not saying anything, so I press Isabelle. We must have done something wrong. I mean, he's only human.

[Isabel]

Very little. Oh, you'd be surprised how perfect he was.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Was that hard, though? Being like side by side with someone who was just so.

[Isabel]

No, I think it was good for her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina, is that way you. Is that how you feel?

[Christina Wismer]

It was hard.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, it was really hard.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Something else that's been hard is finding the courage to ask the question that brought her here. But Christina gives it a shot. After the break,

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

Book with vrbo. Hey, everyone. When Heavyweight returned last year, we were so encouraged by the Heartfelt messages from you, our dear listeners. I can safely say that without you, Heavyweight wouldn't exist today. So thank you. And if you want to take your valuable support to an even higher invaluable level, consider signing up for Pushkin Plus. It makes us look good to our bosses. And you'll get to listen to Heavyweight ad free because you'll be the sponsor Plus. And this is what really puts the plus in Pushkin Plus. You'll also get bonus material. If you want to get 25% off an annual Pushkin plus subscription, head to Pushkin FM plus and use the code HEAVY25. Thanks for your support. Something else that's been hard is finding the courage to ask the question that brought her here. Christina gives it a shot, But after some throat clearing again, she goes silent.

[Isabel]

Go ahead, ask.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think the. The one thing that I have kind of always wondered is, do you remember. I think it was in 10th grade, and I had been playing basketball, and you told me that I had to get my grades up or I couldn't play basketball anymore. Do you remember that?

[Isabel]

No.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay. So I didn't get my grades up, and I had to quit the team.

[Isabel]

I don't remember that at all.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You don't? No, I still. It was. It was devastating for me.

[Isabel]

Why didn't you get your grade at that? Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I asked Christina if she could explain to Isabel why losing basketball hurt so much.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Not without crying. I felt like it was like, the one thing that I was really good at.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Are you surprised to hear Christina talk about how much she loved basketball? Like, was that something that you knew back then?

[Isabel]

I didn't know it, no.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did Christina. Did you ever express it?

[Isabel]

I don't think she did.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I don't think so.

[Isabel]

No, I don't think you did.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think the reason why, like, it still affects me now is because I didn't fight for it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And how could she have? She never felt like she had the right to stomp her feet, to slam the bedroom door, in so many words, to act like someone's kid. I thought that maybe if I could get Isabel to put herself in Christina's shoes, it might help her understand. Was there anything that you can think of that's comparable from your own life, Isabel? Like something that you really felt very passionate about, like the thing that you really. That was your great love?

[Isabel]

Not really. I always wanted to go to school more than I did. I really wanted a good education, which in the country you weren't able to get.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Her father was a rancher, Isabel says, and her mom died when she was little, so her dad raised the kids by himself. And Isabel, being the eldest, had a lot of responsibility.

[Isabel]

I used to miss school every year when I got to be a certain age and had to herd cattle. So I'd miss about two months or a month of school every year when I was old enough to do this. But I was first in my class from the day I started till the day I finished. I was never anything but first in my class.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Was that typical? Did a lot of kids in the class have to miss?

[Isabel]

No, just me. We were brought up by our dad. Men bring up children differently than women.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, and what ways? How do you mean?

[Isabel]

I mean, my dad didn't teach me to ride horseback. He just threw me on a horse and told me to go. You know, a woman wouldn't do that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I don't think.

[Isabel]

Not likely. My father was quite fond of me, actually.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. How far did you go in school?

[Isabel]

Just grade nine. I took grade nine by correspondence.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you never ended up getting the high school degree?

[Isabel]

No. Yeah. School was an important thing to me because I felt that's how you'd make your living. Yeah, but I remember when I was through school, my stepmother looking in the paper and she found a dishwashing job for me. She thought that all I was capable of was washing dishes in some restaurant. I felt very insulted. It always surprised me when kids didn't want to get all the education they possibly could.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Isabel motions towards Christina.

[Isabel]

There's only so far you can go in basketball. I always felt your education was more important. But as a kid, sometimes, you know, you don't see that. I knew. I tried to teach her to be self sufficient because I knew that she'd only have herself to depend upon.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Isabel wanted to give Christina something she never got herself. A good education. But by depriving Christina of basketball, Isabel took away just that. At the time, though she didn't know it. What Isabel did know was that when Christina showed up at her door 30 years ago, she was already in her 60s. Isabel was old, and if she were to die, Christina would be left all alone. She'd only become a foster child because no one in her extended family had stepped up to take her in. She had no one else. What did you know about Christina's childhood before she met you?

[Isabel]

Not much of anything that I can remember. Like, her mother was mentally ill. I guess she knows that. Does he? And I lost my mother when I was five. And my father eventually had a nervous breakdown. So I knew what it was like to Live with a mentally challenged person.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What was it like?

[Isabel]

Terrible. It was horrible. You didn't know if someone was going to kill you today or tomorrow or what the heck was going to happen.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's not an exaggeration. You really were.

[Isabel]

No, it's not an exaggeration. I remember taking my little brother and sister outside and trying to hide them. He was left with five little children, and he was terrified that they were going to take the kids away from him. I used to sit by his bed and hold his hand. And one day he said to me, isabel, why do you keep holding my hand? And in my own way, I was trying to let him know that we all loved him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Isabel eventually placed her father in a mental hospital.

[Isabel]

I admitted him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wow. And you were how old at that time?

[Isabel]

I was about 14.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wow. That's a big burden.

[Isabel]

Yeah, it was. And I thought, here I am, 14. What the hell am I doing here?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All the while, as Isabel talks, Christina, seated in an armchair beside her, listens quietly, her hands gripping the armrests. Without looking at Isabel, she makes her presence known.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I have many memories of visiting my mom in the mental hospital when I was young. Like 7, 8, 9, kind of age 10. It's weird. It's a really weird experience to go, knowing that the other people are mentally unstable and could.

[Isabel]

You can't predict what they're going to do.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And my mom was, you know, kind of a zombie because of all the medication and obviously was, like, sad and upset that she had to be there and wasn't with me. Yeah, it was an awful place. It makes you grow up way too fast.

[Isabel]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I was never a kid until I got married, had my own kids, and then I had a lot of fun raising my own children. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think that's why I was a nanny, because I could be around kids and have a childhood with all these other children.

[Isabel]

Yeah, that's what I did. I grew up with my own children. That was my childhood. Yeah. You know, I'd play with my children just like I was one of them.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah. I did the same thing.

[Isabel]

One day, one of the neighbors looked at me, one of the little girls, and she says, how old are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

These were stories that neither Christina nor Isabel had ever told each other. Watching them connect like this, it feels like a good time to bring the subject back to basketball. How much over the past 30 years, Christina's fretted over Isabel's decision. Knowing this now, I ask Isabel, would you have done things differently?

[Isabel]

Oh, I wished I had known more about it at the time, but, I mean, I still have no regrets about it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's as though Isabel just doesn't understand what the word regret means. So I offer a working definition. If we were to set off in a time machine where we could return to that time and Christina were to

[Isabel]

say, I know what you're saying, but frankly, I don't know what I do. You know, I really don't. It would depend what kind of a mood I'm in.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If you were in the mood that

[Isabel]

you're in right now, I really have no idea. I could give you a lot of BS and tell you how good I would have been, but it wouldn't be the truth.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I think, like, a lot of people would just give Christina the bs.

[Isabel]

Yeah, I don't do that. I usually tell the truth.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Like most, I can lie upwards of 10,000 times a day. It helps ease the friction of getting through life. People ask how I am, and I say, fine. Does this jumpsuit make my ass look fat? And I say no. And so on. Lying all the day long until bedtime, at which point I'm not sure the lying stops. I can probably lie in my dreams. In other words, I hold lying to be the greatest gift God gave to man. But even with all of our lies and best intentions, we still can't escape hurting one another. I don't think Isabel is a cruel woman, but I do think she knows that hurting people and being hurt is the price one pays for being human.

[Isabel]

There is nothing out of the ordinary in our lives, but just, you know, even ordinary lives are quite upsetting sometimes. The decision that was made when she was younger, it wasn't the right one. But how many wrong decisions are made as we go along? Regretting something is a waste of time. You move on, find something else to be passionate about.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In spite of their similar childhoods, Isabel and Christina see the world so differently. Christina is a dreamer, and for her, the best possible world is the one that's always just out of reach. But for Isabel, it's not about pursuing the best possible world at all. It's about making the best of this world, the one you're stuck in. And evidently with the people you're stuck with.

[Isabel]

I wouldn't look after her if, you know, if I didn't care about her, it would have been different, I think. But I was interested in what she did and how she progressed. I wanted her to do well at school and do well at everything. And I was very proud of her when she did. She Was with us a long time. Couldn't get rid of her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Just kidding. Isabel pauses, and then she says appraisingly,

[Isabel]

she deserves a good life.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I do have one.

[Isabel]

Good. And I think it's better because she had some stability in it, which I feel she got in my oath.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. No, no, that's fine. We say our goodbyes and head to the car. Outside Isabelle's, the parking lot has grown dark. Thank you. As we get into the rental car, Christina lets out a sigh. Well, so how did you feel then about that?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It was just really intense. And there's a lot of things that she said that were like. That were very hurtful to me. It's like she affected me tonight, but not in the way that she used to. I didn't get. I didn't get the fuzzy teddy bear cuddly thing. And that's okay that I didn't get that. But what I got was her. And it wasn't everything I needed, but I feel like that's how she shows love. And it's not with hugs, and it's not with I love yous. And it's not with praise necessarily either. It's in a way that I understand now, whereas before I just felt like she just didn't even like me. But now I can see that she loves me in her way and in the best way that she knows how.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In the end, it seems like this is why Christina came here. Not to find out why Isabel made her stop playing basketball, but to find out whether Isabel loved her. And in her tough, straight shooting, slightly scary way, it's pretty clear she does. Do you know why I want to go to Scott Hop Park?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's a surprise. Uh oh, it's not a big surprise. The next morning, before heading home, I take Christina and her husband Levi out to a nearby park. I don't know. I have a paper bag I've been carrying with me since Brooklyn. It's a good thing you're wearing running shoes. When the anticipation reaches its zenith, I reveal to Christina and Levi what's in the bag. A basketball. Which I think they'd sort of guessed since we were now standing by a basketball court and I was dribbling a spherical paper bag. I turned to Levi. Have you ever seen Christina play basketball before? Maybe not.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I don't think we've ever played.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina says she hasn't played in over 10 years. She doesn't even watch basketball on TV anymore. I hold out the ball and Christina looks at it. Then she looks at Levi, and then she takes it from my hands. Check, check.

[Christina Wismer]

Oh, rusty.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But when she gets going, it seems to come back to her. Oh, behind the back, little.

[Christina Wismer]

Behind the back, little spin move.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, behind the back again.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, shoot.

[Isabel]

Oh, there it goes.

[Christina Wismer]

What do you got?

[Isabel]

What do you got?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Trash talking, calling her own shots, driving hard to the basket. There was a different side to Christina that was coming out on the court. It happened suddenly and easily. I think you're waiting. I think it's two nothing at this point.

[Christina Wismer]

I don't think I've scored yet, have I?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The best basketball players are said to have an almost supernatural ability to see a little ahead, to anticipate what will happen next. But Christina and Levi aren't that good. And so they play like a couple of kids for whom the future doesn't matter or the past. And in that space between, it seems like a pretty good life.

[Isabel]

Oh, that was close.

[Christina Wismer]

Oh, for the win.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. I love you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You.

[Isabel]

Now that the furniture's returning to its

[Jonathan Goldstein]

goodwill home,

[Isabel]

now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide

[Jonathan Goldstein]

if we meant it, if we tried or felt around for far too much.

[Isabel]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Christina, Hi. Hi. It's Jonathan.

[Christina Wismer]

Hi, Jonathan. How are you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm good. How are you?

[Christina Wismer]

Good, thanks.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Where are you? In bc?

[Christina Wismer]

Oh, no, in Portland.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In Portland, right. Yes. After we met, I went to see. I went to visit a cousin of mine who lives in bc.

[Christina Wismer]

Oh, nice.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's very generous of you to say that. So this story came out, by God, eight years ago?

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah, almost nine, I think.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Does it feel that long ago?

[Christina Wismer]

It feels simultaneously that long ago and maybe longer.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. This might be a big question, but what's changed for you since then?

[Christina Wismer]

Oh, I mean, outwardly, I think not a ton. Well, I mean, Isabel died.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. You had mentioned. I was sorry to hear that. But you had also said that you saw her again.

[Christina Wismer]

I did, yeah. I think my foster brother called and said that she was in the hospital and not doing well. And she, I think, was 95 at this point.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Christina Wismer]

And so it was kind of like, if you want to say goodbye, now's your time. And so I chose to go. And she was very kind and very grateful that I went.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Do you remember what you talked about with Isabel on that last visit? Was it just small talk?

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah, it was pretty. Pretty surface level.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So she was. There was no. There was no, like, deathbed regret?

[Isabel]

Not at all.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's not surprising.

[Christina Wismer]

I was gonna say. You can't be shocked at that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Have you re listened to the episode

[Christina Wismer]

a couple of times.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Really?

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah. And I think that listening back to it kind of helped me look at it from a different perspective. I think with Isabel, I blamed her for ruining my life for a lot of years. And in order for me to move forward, I needed to let go of that, you know, old kind of story.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When you talk about, like, letting go of a particular story was the story that, had you been able to continue with basketball, your life would have been different.

[Christina Wismer]

I think it's a really dangerous thing to guess what our life would have or could have been like had this thing happened or not happened. And that kind of steals the joy from the present moment. And I just made a decision that I was done letting my past define me or steal my joy, essentially. And that sounds very like, I don't know, woo, woo or.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No. I mean, it's not easy to do. Was there any moment of. I don't know, maybe it's hard to think about in this way, but was, like, there a moment of illumination where it just clicked?

[Christina Wismer]

After that interview with her, I just was kind of like, oh, I'm trying to get blood from a stone, and that's just never gonna happen.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, that's well put. I wonder, though, if there's something like that. You just needed to go through that, to play it out, to see that, you know, and. And to have, like. To have witnesses.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah, I think. I think that was very powerful and very healing. One thing that was very interesting for me was after our interview, Levi got really emotional and was like, I can't imagine, like, how hard that was for you. And I think it just kind of gave him a little bit more of a perspective of what I went through and maybe a bit more compassion for how sometimes I can be a little emotional or overreact to certain things or be, you know, overly sensitive.

[Isabel]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And wait, there was another. There was something else. So your last name is Wismer and Levi's last name is Buckingham, and you've officially combined portmanteaued your names into whizzing ham. So it's whizzing ham. It's like. It's like. It gives you the feeling of, if I may be so bold, like a pig that has attained, like, some kind of flight velocity. It's just whizzing by. I think you're ahead of the curve with this, just like you were with disc golf.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I think more couples are going to be doing this.

[Christina Wismer]

Well, we actually have friends who did the same thing, and so I was the one that came up with their name.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're the guru of it.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, it was just nice to. To hear your voice and to catch up.

[Christina Wismer]

Yeah, you too.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And give. Give warm regards to Levi.

[Christina Wismer]

I will. Thank you so much.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, take care. Foreign. Thanks to everyone who originally put this episode together. We'll be back with another update in two weeks, and if you want no press, you can sign up for our free newsletter. It's free at patreon.com heavyweight tell everybody how great it is. Go ahead, Stevie. Yeah, can you tell everybody about how wonderful this newsletter is? It's pretty wonderful. And boy, is it full of fun. We have photographs of Christina and her dogs, recommendations for all kinds of things that myself and the staff are enjoying. Stevie, what's something that you're enjoying these days?

[Isabel]

I'm enjoying this.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know what? Spoiler alert. You gotta sign up for the newsletter to find out all kinds of cool stuff. Just sign up for the free newsletter. Thank you very much.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.