#55 Toby

Summary

Heavyweight Episode #55: Toby – A Journey Through Hidden Tapes and Family Secrets

Released on November 2, 2023, Heavyweight, hosted by Jonathan Goldstein, delves into personal histories, unresolved issues, and the moments that shape our lives. In Episode #55, titled "Toby," Jonathan assists Toby in uncovering pivotal moments from his past by exploring a collection of audio cassette tapes left behind by Toby's late father.

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1. Introduction to Toby's Story

The episode opens with a brief, light-hearted exchange between Jonathan and a character named Doug, setting a casual tone before diving into Toby's personal journey. The central narrative begins in 2012, following the sudden death of Toby's father from a heart attack. In the aftermath, Toby cleans out his father's house, uncovering mementos that spark questions about his father's life and their strained relationship.

Notable Quote:

[02:36] Jonathan Goldstein: "In 2012, Toby's father died suddenly of a heart attack. Shortly after the funeral, Toby cleaned out his house."

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2. Discovery of the Cassette Tapes

As Toby sorts through his father's belongings, he discovers a box containing 21 audio cassette tapes. These tapes are labeled with titles indicating phone conversations between his divorced parents, Doug and Terry, recorded around the time of their separation in 1987. This discovery presents Toby with an opportunity to hear his parents' interactions firsthand, something he never experienced due to their distant relationship.

Notable Quote:

[03:01] Jonathan Goldstein: "Pocket watch. Keep old weed. Discard. It was while sorting through Doug's old suit jackets and books that Toby found a Box. A box containing 21 audio cassette tapes."

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3. Uncovering the Past

Toby explains that his parents, Doug and Terry, were never particularly close. Doug was the "button-down" type, while Terry had a more wild and carefree nature. Their marriage lasted seven years before Terry abruptly left, marrying a biker and engaging in a tumultuous lifestyle marked by "wild living and hard drinking." Toby's memories of his parents are largely negative, filled with instances of his mother's alcoholism and his father's emotional detachment.

Notable Quotes:

[05:53] Toby: "That just wasn't part of our vernacular."

[06:00] Toby: "Not that I remember."

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4. The Emotional Barrier and Avoidance

Toby shares his tendency to shut out heavy emotions, a coping mechanism developed from his parents' tumultuous divorce. This avoidance becomes evident when his wife, Lauren, brings up the box of tapes. Toby's reluctance to engage with his painful past highlights the emotional barriers he's built to protect himself.

Notable Quote:

[06:21] Toby: "But then I saw something very quickly change the subject, and she's like, this is what I'm talking about."

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5. The Journey Begins: Listening to the Tapes

Jonathan becomes Toby's partner in this emotional excavation, acting as the "excuse" for Toby to confront these tapes. They begin listening to the tapes incrementally, fitting these sessions into Toby's busy schedule. The tapes predominantly consist of civil conversations between Doug and Terry, which starkly contrast Toby's memories of their acrimonious relationship.

Notable Quote:

[11:55] Jonathan Goldstein: "Oh, hello, Hello. The labels on the tape span a couple of years, and we decide to go through in chronological order."

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6. Revealing the Complexity of His Parents' Relationship

As Toby listens to the tapes, he discovers a side of his parents he never knew. Early recordings reveal Doug and Terry discussing practical matters like child support amicably, contradicting Toby's memory of constant conflict. These revelations create a sense of dread in Toby, as he anticipates how their relationship deteriorated over time.

Notable Quote:

[12:24] Doug: "Well, I'm going to end up having to pay you all the back payments."

[12:44] Toby: "My dad's voice I recognize, but my mom's voice. If you'd just played it and said, who is this? I would have. I didn't recognize her voice, which is pretty incredible to me."

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7. The Turning Point: Confronting the Final Tape

The most pivotal moment occurs when Toby and Lauren join Jonathan in Portland to listen to the final, unplayed tape in person. This tape documents a heated argument between Doug and Terry following the officialization of their divorce. The intense confrontation reveals deep-seated anger and unresolved issues, starkly contrasting the earlier civility.

Notable Quote:

[29:04] Doug: "I think it's funny."

[37:14] Doug: "You're not gonna allow me? Kiss my ass. I don't ever gonna happen again."

---

8. Unveiling Hidden Secrets: Abuse and Addiction

Further exploration uncovers deeper family secrets. Toby's aunt, Tracy, reveals that Terry was a victim of abuse by a close family friend, a tragedy that Terry never disclosed during her troubled years. This revelation sheds light on the complexities of Terry's life and her addiction struggles, culminating in her eventual death from addiction-related complications in 2003.

Notable Quote:

[39:21] Doug: "Terry never told because she absolutely loved the lady and loved going over there and hanging out with her."

[40:07] Lauren: "And I guess in a day or two, found out that she had confronted. The man and he had committed suicide."

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9. Impact on Toby's Present and Reflection

Listening to these tapes profoundly affects Toby, leading him to understand his father's struggles and the reasons behind his emotional detachment. Despite the pain, Toby reflects on how these revelations have shaped his approach to fatherhood, emphasizing stability and emotional availability for his own children—something he felt was missing in his upbringing.

Notable Quotes:

[43:37] Toby: "I didn't want to put a kid through what I went through as a kid."

[44:03] Toby: "Because I knew what it was like to be a kid and not have that. And I think we've built a really good life for us and our family and our kids."

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10. Conclusion: Understanding and Moving Forward

The episode concludes with Toby expressing gratitude toward his father for providing stability in his life, despite their complicated past. The journey through the tapes not only uncovers family secrets but also fosters healing and a deeper understanding of himself and his parents.

Notable Quote:

[46:31] Toby: "Thank you. Because I know that you feel that way."

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11. Production Notes

The episode was meticulously produced by senior producer Khalilah Holt, Jonathan Goldstein, and Phoebe Flanagan, with supervising producer Stevie Lane. The narrative is supported by emotional performances and original music, enhancing the storytelling experience.

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Closing Thoughts

Episode #55 of Heavyweight masterfully intertwines personal discovery with broader themes of family, loss, and healing. By navigating through Toby's emotional landscape and uncovering his family's hidden past, the episode offers listeners a poignant exploration of how our histories shape who we become.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [02:36] Jonathan Goldstein: "In 2012, Toby's father died suddenly of a heart attack. Shortly after the funeral, Toby cleaned out his house."

• [12:24] Doug: "Well, I'm going to end up having to pay you all the back payments."

• [37:14] Doug: "You're not gonna allow me? Kiss my ass. I don't ever gonna happen again."

• [43:37] Toby: "I didn't want to put a kid through what I went through as a kid."

• [46:31] Toby: "Thank you. Because I know that you feel that way."

---

References:

• Heavyweight Podcast by Pushkin Industries
• Episode #55: Toby
• Transcript provided by the user

Transcript

[Toby]

Yeah.

[Doug]

What do you mean?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. My foot fell asleep.

[Doug]

Pardon?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My foot fell asleep.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

From a medical perspective, is it better to rub it or just to ride it out? Keep it still.

[Doug]

I think maybe, like cutting it off.

[Terry]

Bye.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wait. No. Hello, Jackie. I can't walk. And I can hear the ice cream truck. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode. Toby. Right after the break.

[Doug]

Foreign.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. Chat. GPT plus is free for college students now through May. That means you have no limits on how many ways you can prompt ChatGPT. To help you through the worst part of the school year, I spoke with producer and college graduate Khalilah Holt.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You can create any image you can think of in any style. Quick, give me an image.

[Lauren]

Sylvia Plath. Jinx. Stand up.

[Doug]

Comedy Ding.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sylvia Plath. Happy at last. Thanks to ChatGPT. ChatGPT plus free for college students through May. Restrictions apply.

[Terry]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

In 2012, Toby's father died suddenly of a heart attack. Shortly after the funeral, Toby cleaned out his house.

[Toby]

You know, you just find stuff, find relics of a life. Like, oh, hey, here's this, you know, pocket watch that's labeled 1912. Whose would this have been?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know, Toby and his dad, Doug, weren't especially close, so going through his stuff felt oddly intimate.

[Toby]

It's funny, I didn't know my dad ever smoked weed, but I found weed.

[Doug]

Oh, wow.

[Toby]

It's like, okay, it was really old, I think.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Toby says there were thousands of decisions to make.

[Toby]

What to donate, what to try and sell at an estate sale, and what to keep.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pocket watch. Keep old weed. Discard. It was while sorting through Doug's old suit jackets and books that Toby found a Box. A box containing 21 audio cassette tapes. Toby read through the labels. They had titles like phone conversation, Terry, 9:30pm Terry, March 3, 1987, phone conversation and Terry's Call. Terry was Toby's mom. She and his dad divorced when Toby was 4. And judging by the dates on the labels, the tapes were recorded around the time of their split. Why did these tapes even exist? Toby wasn't sure. He put the tapes in the keep pile. As Toby understands it, his parents were never an obvious match. Doug was the button down type, and Terry had a wild hair. They got married young, and seven years into their marriage, Terry surprised Doug by picking up all her stuff one day and moving out from there. Terry married a biker dude named Randy and spiraled into years of wild living and hard drinking. Toby's memory of those years is like a series of snapshots. Hugging his mom and knowing even at 12, to smell her for alcohol. The time his friend told him he couldn't sleep over at his house because, quote, my mom doesn't like your mom. And the night Terry took him and his little sister Heidi to a bar and kept drinking and drinking, my mom.

[Toby]

Was like, unable to stand up, essentially. And me being 7 or 8, knowing like, oh, you're not supposed to drink and drive, and asking a random dude at the bar like, hey, can you drive us home? I remember being confused because I had asked the question. And then my mom still drove us home. My sister was, I think, old enough to know something wasn't right. She was probably kindergarten.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In the backseat, Heidi reached out for Toby's hand and we held hands while.

[Toby]

She was driving home.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Eventually, Toby and Heidi went to live with their dad, Doug. Things were a lot more emotionally stable there. But Doug wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. Toby can't remember a single time he ever told Toby he loved him.

[Toby]

That just wasn't part of our. That wasn't part of our vernacular.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You never heard I love you?

[Toby]

Not that I remember.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Although the divorce's aftermath had a profound impact on Toby, for the most part, he tries to avoid thinking about it. He tells me he tends to shut out heavy emotions. In fact, this tendency came up just the other day when Lauren, his wife of 15 years, brought up the box of tapes.

[Toby]

But then I saw something very quickly change the subject, and she's like, this is what I'm talking about. Like you. Anytime it starts to get deep, you immediately find a bright, shiny object to change the subject.

[Lauren]

He said, hey, look at that silver car over there that's been parked there for A while.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Lauren.

[Lauren]

He's pretty avoidant of getting to those, like, raw, vulnerable parts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

21 cassette tapes from the exact period of your life that you've spent so long avoiding might really bring out those raw, vulnerable parts. Which is why almost 10 years after taking them home, the tapes remain unplayed, hidden away in a credenza. Maybe there's nothing even on the tapes. Maybe they've been recorded over or warped with time. But maybe they form an unlikely door to Toby's past, to his childhood and his parents relationship.

[Toby]

There's so much that I don't know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Toby]

My dad's gone, my mom's gone. I don't have any way to find out what was actually happening in my life. This is the last piece of them that, like, it'd be new, new information, but don't know that I'm ever actually gonna listen to them if I. If I don't have an excuse forcing me to listen to them.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so I, Jonathan Goldstein, have become that living, breathing excuse. Toby has come to me with the tapes in order to help him face his past and his feelings head on. What's the ideal version of what comes next?

[Toby]

Like, part of me is like, send you guys the tapes and you tell me what's on them and what's interesting and what's not. You know, like, almost outsourcing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Like, create a curated. We've done a highlight reel.

[Toby]

Yeah. Here's how your life changed dramatically through no fault of your own.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Here's the highlights after the break. The highlights. Kahlilah Holt.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I used to work at a radio show called this American Life.

[Lauren]

I know. It's the show that inspired me to follow this line of work.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If you've never heard of this American Life, they're like. I think they describe themselves, if I'm not mistaken, as being like little movies for the radio.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it's the best. It was my favorite show as a kid all the way to. It's still my favorite show.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And how many things can you think of that are like that, that have been going for 25 years and have just maintained the level of quality that this American Life has truly. Like, I mean, even things that you end up loving. Like, I loved Star Wars. I watched three episodes. That was plenty. For this American Life. It just. In some ways, it gets better. It expands its universe. And the things that it tr.

[Lauren]

Talk about it, like, every week. Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's meaningful to us. And I would say, if you love Heavyweight, you're gonna love this American Life. Would you say That I would say that. Should we say it in unison?

[Lauren]

Sure, if you like. Heavyweight.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Heavyweight. Okay.

[Lauren]

You're not saying it in unison. You're gonna love.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I don't know that saying things in unison really sells something. It's not like. No, no, no, really. They said it in unison. It really imparted to me just how true this was. Yeah, but it is true that this American life continues to experiment every week with what radio storytelling can be. And it drops every Sunday night. So listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Khalilah Holt]

Man, if you're ready to reclaim your edge, listen up. I used to be held back by constant bathroom trips with multiple wake ups during my sleep and looking for restrooms whenever I was out. Then I discovered Better Man. After just two months, I started experiencing fewer trips to the bathroom. I less urge to go and I even slept through some nights. I feel a noticeable boost in my overall well being, even sexual stamina. It gives me the freedom and confidence to live life on my terms. Better man is clinically tested and trusted by thousands of men over 25 years, ready to take back control. Go to be better now.com to order your supply today. That's be better now dot com. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Uses directed. Individual results may vary.

[Toby]

I mentioned to my 6 year old, I was like, yeah, I'm talking to Jonathan Goldstein. And he said, who is that? Is that an old man you're talking to about another old man?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

He's basically nailed heavyweight in a sentence. I've started to go through the cassettes, which amount to about 23 hours of audio. And while there are work calls, calls to the video store, a fair bit of Fleetwood Mac taped off the radio, a large portion of the tapes is exactly what the labels promised. Phone calls between Toby's parents. It seems that during the divorce proceedings, Doug had been meticulously recording his phone calls, possibly as a precaution in case of a custody battle. Toby has a busy schedule. He works a full time job and is raising two kids. So he set aside an hour a week to go through the tapes a little at a time. Our check ins usually occur during breaks in Toby's workday. Oh, hey. Hello, Toby.

[Toby]

Hello, can you hear me?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, hello, Hello. The labels on the tape span a couple of years, and we decide to go through in chronological order. The earliest tapes are from after Doug and Terry have separated, but before the official divorce. I press play. And for the first time in over a decade, Toby hears his parents voices.

[Doug]

Did you pay Joanne? I couldn't get hold of her. You didn't pay her?

[G]

No.

[Doug]

Why not?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In this recording, Terry wants to know why Doug hasn't paid their babysitter. Joanne.

[G]

Well, I'm going to end up having to pay you all the back payments.

[Doug]

Back payments? For.

[G]

On child support.

[Doug]

I'm not asked for any back payments. I'm not vindictive, not greedy, Just paid Joanne I'm not going to ask for.

[G]

Okay, well, I'll stop by there and pay her.

[Toby]

My dad's voice I recognize, but my mom's voice. If you'd just played it and said, who is this? I would have. I didn't recognize her voice, which is pretty incredible to me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And what Toby also finds pretty incredible is hearing his parents speak to one another and with so much civility. The only version of them that he remembers is two people with so much bad blood between them, they could hardly be in the same room together. Birthday parties were separate, and at his graduation they avoided eye contact and didn't speak a word. But none of that acrimony is evident in these early tapes.

[Doug]

So you want that stipulated in the papers that you would have them for a couple of months in the summertime?

[G]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In another recording from that time, Doug and Terry try to figure out how to split time with Toby and Heidi.

[Doug]

When are you talking about again? July.

[G]

July, August, June and July.

[Doug]

Well, Heidi's birthday's in July. We don't get to give her a birthday party together. We love our kids. We don't hate each other.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Not only do they not hate each other, they're getting along exceptionally well. They're able to hash out their divorce agreement, just the two of them, without lawyers. They figure it all out at a Perkins restaurant one night. As Toby listens to his parents being so cordial, he feels a kind of dread, because he knows cordial is not how things will end. It's like listening to the beginning, he says, of a horror story.

[Toby]

Hey.

[G]

Hello.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What are you doing?

[G]

Oh, just doing some laundry.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So how did things deteriorate? So how did they get so bad? With that question in mind, we forge ahead with the tapes. Yeah, so. Okay, I'll play you. While Toby always knew his dad to be a pretty detached person, on the night the divorce becomes official, Doug seems genuinely lonely. The tapes capture him phoning a friend and getting a continuous busy signal. He calls back four more times until he can finally get through.

[G]

Hello. What do you guys do, Sit around talk on the phone all night? No, we leave it off the hustle.

[Doug]

People like you won't call.

[G]

I hear you. What's going on, Doc? Oh, it's final.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What's final?

[G]

The divorce.

[Doug]

Oh, it's already.

[G]

Yeah.

[Doug]

How could it be? It done so quick.

[G]

All I gotta do now is live with it. You know, it's still gonna take a lot of time to get over it. Sure, sure. One thing I learned, people are not supposed to get divorced. What do you mean? I was always taught that if something's broken, you should fix it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh sure.

[G]

Cause you know, I remember my parents.

[Doug]

Would have fights so bad, but you.

[G]

Know, the thought of divorce just never came up. Yeah, yeah. Of course you'll never know the whole story. Just like Toby and Heidi will never know the whole story.

[Toby]

It seems like he kind of intuitively knew that we would always have questions. And that thread continues today.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As we continue on beyond the divorce. Toby's wife Lauren joins him to listen to some of the tapes. Like this one.

[Doug]

Hi dad.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is a 5 year old Toby on the phone with Doug. Adult Toby, hearing his own voice, exchanges a smile with Lauren. Hi Toby.

[G]

Hey. Hey. I heard you got new cereal.

[Doug]

Yeah, and Pac Man Yucko.

[G]

What are you trying to do? You trying to rot all your teeth out?

[Doug]

Bye.

[Lauren]

Bye.

[G]

Hey Tub.

[Doug]

What?

[G]

I love you. I'll see you tomorrow night, Okay?

[Doug]

I love you too. I was getting a nap.

[Toby]

I don't really remember that kind of relationship with him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Like what kind of relationship?

[Toby]

Silly and playful and saying I love you when you hang up the phone. Like I don't really remember that at all.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The I love yous had existed. Toby had just forgotten them. The parents on the tapes are different from the parents Toby remembers in other ways too.

[Doug]

Daddy, bring along her Care Bear blanket too.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Not only are they working as a team, but Terry sounds clear headed and on top of things.

[G]

Yeah, she brought along some blanket.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's like a bedspread type.

[Doug]

Yes, that's the one. Well, it goes on her little bed. Tubby knows who Robert is. That's who he's bowling the doubles with. And make sure he gets a 10 ball.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Whenever Terry calls to talk to the kids at Doug's, young Toby runs to the phone. Mommy, mommy.

[Doug]

Toby love root beer. I suppose so.

[Lauren]

Okay, I'll send it through the fun. I got some right here. There.

[Doug]

Oh, that was good.

[Lauren]

Clean. Another can?

[Doug]

Yeah, I'll do another can. I'm thirsty there.

[Lauren]

Were you really gurgling?

[Doug]

I really got through beer.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And whenever they say goodbye, Terry, just like Doug, tells Toby how much she.

[Doug]

Loves him I'll talk to you later. Love you. Bye bye. Love you. Bye Bye. I love you.

[Lauren]

Love you too.

[Toby]

It's a little bit. It's a little bit sad knowing what happened in her life over the next 10 or 15 years. Like my memories of my mom don't have any of that light heartedness or happiness to him. I remember a lot more of the. Of the bad stuff.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The bad stuff continued into Toby's young adulthood. Not long before she died, Toby saw his mother at a family Thanksgiving. Toby was in college and had just dyed his hair black. Terry was so out of it that she didn't recognize him.

[Toby]

And she looked at me and said hi. And then like turned away and was like, where's Toby at? And it's like, well, I'm right here. My hair's a different color, but I'm still here. And that's a core memory. I think. I think that was the last time I saw her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know that story, Lauren?

[Lauren]

I didn't remember that story.

[Doug]

I don't know.

[Toby]

It's not a fun Friday night conversation.

[Lauren]

I noticed today as we've been talking about stuff like you'll get choked up and then, you know, you've got to sort of diffuse it. Like you smile afterwards.

[Toby]

I'm thinking of, like, what's a funny joke I can put in here now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Knowing how Toby tends to brush over difficult feelings, the next clip I play him feels like one of those origin stories you'd see in a superhero film.

[G]

Toby, stop.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Doug is on hold with Joanne, the babysitter.

[G]

Okay, we'll get your jammies on then.

[Lauren]

I don't like your jammies.

[Toby]

Well, then shape up.

[G]

Act a little happier.

[Doug]

Act a little happier.

[G]

Okay.

[Doug]

Hello, bro.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Joy in act a little happier, the marching orders Toby would continue to obey all the way into his adulthood. But when Toby listens to the tape.

[Toby]

I think it's funny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All he can do is laugh it off. Shall we continue?

[G]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Toby's sister Heidi asking Doug if he can have dinner with her at her mother's house.

[G]

No, I don't think. I don't think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Why?

[G]

Well, I don't go over there anymore.

[Doug]

Violence. Why are you doing supper over here?

[G]

Well, I don't need supper over there.

[Doug]

Why?

[G]

Because your mom and I are divorced.

[Doug]

Why did you?

[G]

Well, I don't know. Maybe we'll understand it better when we're older.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In spite of Toby's being older, in spite of cassette tapes and spooling lives, there are many questions Toby will never have the answers to. But then One day while going through the tapes, I come across one answer to a big how things between Doug and Terry got so bad it happened after the divorce. On one particular evening in April of 1988. Suddenly I can see the whole arc of the relationship's downfall. The recordings are heavy and scheduling these tape listening sessions over zoom during Toby's lunch breaks no longer feels appropriate. And so I have a new idea. I decide I'll travel to Portland where Toby lives so we can sit down together and over the course of a dedicated weekend, play these last tapes in person.

[Toby]

Oh, gosh.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, after the break, Portland.

[Khalilah Holt]

Men, if you're ready to reclaim your edge, listen up. I used to be held back by constant bathroom trips with multiple wake ups during my sleep and looking for restrooms whenever I was out. Then I discovered Better Man. After just two months, I started experiencing fewer trips to the bathroom, less urge to go, and I even slept through some nights. I feel a noticeable boost in my overall well being, even sexual stamina. It gives me the freedom and confidence to live life on my terms. Better man is clinically tested and trusted by thousands of men over 25 years, ready to take back control. Go to be betternow.com to order your supply today. That's Be Better Now.com. these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Use as directed. Individual results may vary.

[Doug]

Hello.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello, Toby. Lauren and I meet in a hotel suite in downtown Portland. Hi, nice to meet you. Lauren and Toby sit next to each other on the couch. We all don our headphones to listen so we can start if that's good with you guys.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so we dive into that pivotal evening from 1988.

[G]

Wednesday night, April 26th.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For the first time, we hear Doug narrating directly into the recorder. It's because this is the moment when he knows he's not merely documenting as a precaution, but potentially preparing evidence.

[G]

This is the day after she lets get in her house alone. That's when I called the police.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It seems that Terry left Toby and Heidi at home all by themselves one night. And Doug called the police. Toby remembers that night.

[Toby]

We were at mom's house.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Toby]

And she went. I don't know how long she was gone, but I was like five. I got scared and I called my dad and I didn't know he was gonna call the police or whatever. So my mom came home at some point and then like the police came by.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Toby doesn't recall his dad talking to him. About what happened, but it seems he did.

[G]

Are you upset about last night?

[Doug]

Mom is.

[G]

Yeah. See, I called the police because I don't think you guys should be left there alone. And I didn't know what else to do because I can't go in your mom's house.

[Doug]

Okay, but they said we might get.

[Lauren]

Something away to go to the new house.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

They said we might get taken away to go to your house.

[G]

I don't think you will because I don't think your mom will leave you alone anymore. And that's good, because, you know, when you're older, I think you guys need to be left alone, but not when you guys are this young. You know I'm sick. I know, I know. But you were scared, and I was scared for you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Terry, on the other hand, didn't think there was anything to be scared of. When she calls Doug sometime later to talk to the kids, Heidi brings up that night and Terry explains it this way.

[Doug]

Mom, how come one time you left d when nobody was there? Because I had to go check on my work and I was gone for 15 minutes. Haven't you ever been left alone before? No. You were asleep. You didn't even know it. And if Toby had been asleep, do you know what? I would not have left at all. But I thought Kobe was old enough that he could sit here for 15 minutes by himself and watch the movie he was watching without freaking out. But obviously not.

[Toby]

Pretty shitty to put that on me, a six year old who got scared.

[Doug]

So now that just caused a big. That caused a big, big, big, big problem. You slept through the whole thing, Heidi. Toby knows all about it. And from now on, your dad better never leave you guys alone either. Never ever. If he does, you call me. How come you didn't kill me? Because, honey, you were asleep for the night. What if the house caught on fire? The house wasn't gonna catch on fire. We got about how many? We got two smoke alarms downstairs here, don't we? And besides that, the house wouldn't catch on fire. Playing with matches. Are you guys going to play with matches? Well, there's electricity cut on. We got all new wiring in this house.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Because of what happened that night. Family services paid a visit to Terry's house, but nothing came of it. Legally, that was that. Still, Terry felt betrayed by Doug. Here they are later that week, relitigating.

[Doug]

Are you trying to find for pocah? Are you going to be all like that for something or what?

[G]

I want you to straighten your act up is what I want.

[Doug]

Straighten my act up. My act has been more than a straight ass.

[G]

Well, you made bad judgments. I leave a four year old and a six year old alone.

[Doug]

I love words I dance with together for sober. How could you hear that?

[Toby]

She didn't sound sober. I think my sister and I were there with her at that point. Like she was taking care of us.

[G]

What was Toby doing up at 11 o' clock on his school night?

[Doug]

What was it? Because we was busy.

[G]

Welcome. The other day you said you were gonna kill yourself. If I had custody of kids, I.

[Doug]

Would never kill myself. I don't go to hell. You know how religious life. Please die.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What begins as anguish hardens into anger. A few weeks later, Terry phones Doug and accuses him of being out at a bar called Wendy o' Leary's.

[Doug]

Yeah, this Terry. Where are you hanging out? Windy o' Leary's. Should I call the cops on you? Your children wanting to talk to you? I think that's a little bit of neglect. I didn't really call a bitch or anything. But what I do want to say is this. I don't like standing on my front porch spying. I told you to park in front of the house. And that's exactly what I meant. And if you can't get an answer with the honks, then you just better start hollering in the door, toe behind it. Because as far as I could see it was spying to listen to what was going on in the house. So yeah, I'm a little upset and I've been upset and I've been holding it in. That's just the kind of mood I'm in. And that's just the kind of mood that I have been holding within. So why don't I just give a call, we know Larry's and see if he'll answer. Goodbye.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So this next clip is the last tape between them. It's a long one. Let's listen if you're ready.

[Toby]

I think so.

[Doug]

It was very important I got hold of you.

[G]

Yeah. Is there a problem?

[Doug]

I need to talk to you about the month of June.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The month of June. This is where the argument begins. Doug has custody in June, but Terry has registered Toby for summer softball. Doug says the problem there is that he and the kids will be out of town for two weeks in June. So Terry says, well, great. If Toby's going to miss that much softball, he'll probably end up with some horrible position like right field and his self esteem will be shot to hell.

[G]

You know that the kids come here in June and you just scheduled it.

[Doug]

The damn league scheduled it that.

[G]

Well, you didn't contact me, and you.

[Doug]

Knew he was gonna be here. Toby can't participate in any summer sports? Is that what you're saying?

[G]

What's that?

[Doug]

Toby can never participate in any summer sports his whole life till he's 18.

[G]

No, I didn't say anything like that. I said I would like to know about it.

[Doug]

Okay, fine, dad. Let's let the child be just invalid at home, Be a vegetable all summer.

[G]

What?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Terry wants to change the custody agreement so she can take Toby to these softball games, but Doug says he's already booked the childcare he'll need for the whole month.

[Doug]

Childcare?

[G]

Yeah. Terry, now, I. I'm not following. No, wait a second. Let me talk. Okay. Joanne and Caprice have scheduled their time around when they can watch my kids. Caprice. Okay, I'm sorry.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So Terry turns it back on Doug. Okay? She says if I can't see the kids in June, then you won't see them in July.

[G]

Yes, I will see them.

[Doug]

How? Maybe my month is still left.

[G]

I can see them on weekends. My normal visitation.

[Doug]

Okay, I'll have to look that up because I do tend to look every little thing up.

[G]

Are you gonna look up about the school that you pull them out of?

[Doug]

Don't worry about that.

[Khalilah Holt]

That's.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In those early calls, Doug and Terry tended to resolve their disagreements in just a few minutes. But now they go on fighting for over half an hour straight. Terry begins to leap from one unrelated grievance to the next.

[Doug]

The other day. God damn it. Jonathan walked Toby home from kindergarten.

[G]

Yeah. Caprice went, too.

[Doug]

Caprice did not take them home. Toby told me this.

[G]

That's not true.

[Doug]

Oh, Toby lied. You know Toby. He's not a liar. When I come here also to talk to the kids Friday afternoon, Capris kept saying, get off the phone. Get off the phone. Kids, get off the phone. Get off the phone. Because I always make a point of calling them on Friday and Saturday, which I don't see you making a point of calling the kids during the wait. But when I call, I don't appreciate the babysitter telling the kids to get off the phone. And I don't appreciate also you standing on my front porch hearing what's going on inside of my house. To me, that is spying and low down and dirty. You were standing with one foot on the porch and one foot on the sidewalk.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And then finally, Terry raises the thing that really underlies her rage. The night of the police.

[Doug]

When? Two weeks ago when the cops were here. You Couldn't even come up and check on your own son's welfare when you were supposedly so damn concerned. So what's the difference? I mean, either you're gonna do it or you're not gonna do it. That's kind of double standard because I.

[G]

Don'T think it was would have been a good idea to make a big scene.

[Doug]

Oh, make a big scene when your son's taken upstairs and talked to by the cops. You don't. Four policemen, you don't consider that a big scene? Four cops, right. That's what Randy says. Four cops is a big scene.

[G]

What I consider big was leaving the kids alone by themselves.

[Doug]

You don't know our lifestyle, you don't know our situation. And you.

[G]

Now wait a second. Lifestyle has nothing to do with it. You don't leave a four year old and a six year old in a house alone in the middle of the night, let alone in the middle of the day.

[Doug]

Cops ask him, has it ever happened before? No. And another thing that has me still is that you did, Doug. Was you sitting around actually? Sitting around? Actually. Nobody can believe this. In your suit tie, your jacket, your dress pants, your dress shoes and all that at 11 o' clock at night?

[G]

Yeah, it was a matter of fact.

[Doug]

You were, as a matter of fact.

[G]

No, I didn't have a tie on.

[Doug]

No, you had a tie on when you was out here in front of my house.

[G]

No, I didn't. I had.

[Doug]

Well, how could we see it? She was so far away. You went to come up here and check on Toby.

[G]

I had a shirt on.

[Doug]

I mean, do you talk so serious to the kids? Do you guys ever laugh? I know you do a lot of things with the kids. I know you guys go to the zoo and you guys go boating and I know the kids enjoy it. But I also know they're getting these spoiled little booger bets over a lot of things too. They're getting expect us a little bit too much out of life, I think. But is there any humor and laughter in their life or is it all materialism and soberness? I don't know what's going on. But why is it the other day Toby didn't for the first time Toby didn't want to go to your house. And why did Toby draw a picture of the devil and say it was you? Heidi had a bad dream last night and it was at your house. That's what the dream was. What is going on? I am really concerned.

[G]

Yeah. I don't know. The kids hold a lot of anger. I don't know.

[Doug]

They don't hold a lot of anger here. Everything's funky dory here. As a matter of fact, last two nights the kids have woke up with bad dreams. And both nights have been dreams had something to do with the house.

[G]

Well, they don't wake up with bad dreams over here.

[Doug]

They sleep well, they're not dreams here. You know, I'm thinking, is there perversion going on or what?

[G]

Well, I think that's a pretty strong allegation.

[Doug]

I don't have an allegation, but I.

[G]

Wonder exactly what are you trying to say?

[Doug]

I had it happen to me. Is there a friend of yours that you or maybe think that's a good friend of yours who may not be a friend. Good friend as you think?

[G]

Well, I think you're wrong.

[Doug]

No, that's not, that's not impossible, Doug. It's not impossible.

[G]

How can you comprehend leaving a 4 and a 6 year old at home.

[Doug]

Alone for 15 minutes? And you know what? The DCFS worker died laughing. She said, toby, do you know why I'm here? He says, yes, because I have no sense of time. Told Tubby, I'll be right back. I ran three blocks. I was right back.

[G]

Well, you don't leave a four year.

[Doug]

Old and a six year old because by God, the first time there won't be no cops involved. It'll be me and my family involved because nobody in my family can believe they said right or wrong. They can't believe that you called in the outside.

[G]

Your family thinks it's okay to leave kids alone?

[Doug]

No, but they think you should have come over yourself. But no, you can't even come up on the front porch, Terry. The police.

[G]

The police did not want. Want me to come up on the front porch.

[Doug]

The police didn't want you to come talk to your own son. Did they say that, Terry? No.

[G]

Did they say that they got the information they needed? They told me they thought it would be best if I left.

[Doug]

Did you say, well, I would like to talk to my son? Did you take the police advice?

[G]

Terry, I'm not gonna argue with the police.

[Doug]

I want to know how much you care about Tubby. You took the police advice over your own son's welfare? I personally, I don't know, maybe it's the maternal instinct. I would have said, well, can I at least see my son or talk to him?

[G]

Okay, this is kind of going.

[Doug]

You took the police advice when the police got thousands and thousands and thousands of calls to make and you have only one son.

[G]

My own concern for Toby Is why I. Why the police were at your house. You don't leave a four year old and a six year old.

[Doug]

Why didn't you just track your suit, tie, shoes and your jacket over here in the first place?

[G]

I did.

[Doug]

You would have been here before they would have been here.

[G]

I was.

[Doug]

You was here before they was here. You know that just goes to show me that your concern is not what your son is, but how it looks reflects on you. First time I ever, ever left the kids, they told that lady that. They told the policeman that they told you that. I can't even begin to tell you my anger about this.

[G]

Well, that's good. Because I'm not gonna allow you to do that.

[Doug]

You're not gonna allow me? Kiss my ass. I don't ever gonna happen again.

[G]

I don't regret calling the police when you left the kids alone.

[Doug]

I don't call the police. Okay, fine. Anything ever happens, I call the police on you. Then neither one of us have children. How do you like them apples? You want to call in alpha organizations? That's.

[Toby]

Tape cut off.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Tape cuts off. It's not. At the end of the cassette, the tape abruptly cuts off in a way that suggests Doug had pressed stop for all of his rigor and scrupulousness in recording. It's like this moment was just too painful to document. In the end, Doug never needed the tape for evidence. As there was no court case, Terry agreed to allow him full custody without contest. When Toby was in the third grade, he and Heidi went to live with their dad for good. Toby sits in silence, taking in what he just heard. Lauren studies his face.

[Lauren]

The thing I just get pulled back to again and again is like, that's my person in the middle of it. It's really hard. I wish there were like better words. I'm sorry.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Toby's always been grateful to his dad for taking him out of a bad situation. But hearing this conversation, he says he suddenly understands the extent of what his dad was dealing with and why it might have been so important that Doug remained the stolid one in the face of so much intensity. Perhaps someone had to be.

[Toby]

My mom was being awful. She's being pretty awful.

[Doug]

Terri and Doug, they were happy. They were happy. Until she wasn't.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Toby's aunt Tracy, Terri's sister. I reached out to her to try to get more context for some of the things Terri says in the tapes. Specifically, Tracy was able to explain the abuse that Terri referenced.

[Doug]

My parents best friends that mom and dad ran around with all the time. It was that man, the husband. And Terry never told because she absolutely loved the lady and loved going over there and hanging out with her. She just loved her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It wasn't until well into Terri's adulthood that the truth came out. She called her parents one night and told them what their friend had done to her all those years ago. Her parents didn't know what to do, so they did nothing. Terry's boyfriend at the time convinced her to phone the man's wife. They called together and they told her.

[Doug]

These people are still married.

[Lauren]

And I guess in a day or.

[Doug]

Two, found out that she had confronted.

[Lauren]

The man and he had committed suicide.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Just a few days later, the husband died by suicide.

[Doug]

Told her it was true. He committed suicide.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, my.

[Doug]

Yeah, I think that was one of Terry's demons. I think that his mom lived with a lot of regrets. I think she died with a lot of regrets. I mean, it's sad. I look back and how sad it is that the kids didn't have her growing up. Anybody that's in addiction don't want to be in addiction, but addiction was always stronger than her. I believe with my whole heart, if she could come back today and go, okay, let's do this over, it would have been an amazing moment.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The argument about the police was the last tape between Toby's parents. But there are two other tapes, tapes that were not recorded surreptitiously. They were recorded explicitly for Toby.

[Doug]

This is the birth. Toby aired on Friday, November 27, 1981.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is a tape that Terry made recounting the story of Toby's birth directly to him.

[Doug]

Doug. And I've got a whole view in text.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You.

[Doug]

Doug was. Your dad was crying.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I was just so happy because this tape was found among Doug's things. Because Terry sounds so young and optimistic, you can tell that this was recorded years before the divorce, back when things were different. Terry explains how she and Doug got into a spat.

[Doug]

We are in a dad.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We had a slight argument, but then swore to never argue in front of Toby again.

[Doug]

And I told him, I said, we cannot argue, but we don't like it. And so then we made it. He's a proud daddy. He does love you, Toby. Very, very.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All these years later, it's hard for Toby to picture his parents as people who were once in love, who could argue and then make up, who cared about him in tandem. In 2003, Terry died from complications due to addiction. The lasting image Toby has of his two parents finally sharing the same room took place at her funeral. Toby was Surprised to see his dad seated at the back of the church, Doug left as soon as the service was over. And Toby could never figure out why his father had shown up at all. Maybe it was for the Terry he used to love. Maybe it was for their kids. Me and you now, kid. No, Mr. Ann, let's get this sleeper on you.

[Doug]

Come on.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The final tape I play for Toby is one of Toby himself as a baby with his parents.

[Doug]

You got the hiccups.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, you got the hiccups. This is pretty tricky getting these clothes on you with you squirming all around. I know, I know. In another part of the tape, Terry sings to a baby. Toby.

[Doug]

Sweet Toby Jean I'm so in love.

[Lauren]

With you.

[Doug]

And I need to be Gene.

[Lauren]

We never part so hello Toby Jean.

[Doug]

Goodbye.

[Toby]

I didn't want to put a kid through what I went through as a kid.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Even back when he was just a kid himself, Toby remembers thinking, when I'm an adult, it won't be like this. When I have my own kids, I'm going to do things so much differently. And now he does have kids. A six year old and a nine year old.

[Toby]

Something that has always been important to me is like stability. That's something I've intentionally built into my life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Toby]

Because I knew what it was like to be a kid and not have that. And I think we've built a really good life for us and our family and our kids.

[Lauren]

Toby had told me a story from when he was a kid. He wanted to do BMX racing.

[Doug]

And.

[Lauren]

You should tell the story, honey. It's your story.

[G]

Okay.

[Lauren]

About your dad calling.

[Toby]

Yeah. So I wanted to do BMX racing really bad. I'd seen it on tv. I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. I want to do this. And so my dad called the one bike shop in our town and was like, is there any BMX around or whatever. And they're like, nope. And then I never got to do BMX, but our 6 year old really is into it. And so like I've got him a BMX bike.

[G]

Work.

[Toby]

Sorry. We're like, I'm going to a skate park all the time and he's in mountain bike classes and yeah. Doing this stuff for him that like, it's clear to me that my dad went the extra mile in the ways that he could. I want to do that for my kids.

[Lauren]

Toby doesn't get emotional very often. This is the most I've ever seen him. Emotional, huh? And we've been through some life together. You're gonna sleep good tonight, buddy. Like, you know, this is this type of emotional work.

[Doug]

It's exhausting.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Maybe, said Doug. We'll understand it better when we're older, which is something that people just say. But in this case, Doug inadvertently left something behind to make that understanding possible. And yet to become the dad that he is, to give the things that he didn't get. Toby didn't need the tapes at all.

[Lauren]

Just really proud of you, Toby.

[Toby]

Thank you. Because I know that you feel that way.

[Doug]

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home. Now that the last month's ran is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide.

[Toby]

If we meant it.

[Doug]

If we tried or felt around for.

[Toby]

Far too much.

[Doug]

From things that accidentally touch.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Khalilah Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Production assistance by Mohini Midgalker. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Alex Bloomberg, Max Green, Blythe Turrell and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lourd mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson and he himself, Bobby Lourd. Additional music credits can be found on our website gimletmedia.com heavyweight our theme song is by the Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Heavyweight is a Spotify original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight, on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email [e-mail] you can also follow our show on Spotify and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes drop. We'll be back next week with a new episode. ChatGPT is free for college students now through May. That means you have no limits on how many ways you can prompt ChatGPT to help you through the worst part of the school year. I spoke with producer and college graduate Khalilah Holt. Yeah, you can create any image you can think of in any style. Quick, give me an image.

[Lauren]

Sylvia Plath Jinks Stand Up Comedy Ding.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sylvia Plath Happy at last. Thanks to ChatGPT ChatGPT plus free for college students through May. Restrictions apply.

[Terry]

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[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're listening to an I Heart podcast.