Heavyweight Encore: #2 Gregor

Summary

Heavyweight Encore: #2 Gregor – Detailed Summary

Release Date: June 5, 2025
Host: Jonathan Goldstein
Podcast: Heavyweight | Pushkin Industries

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Introduction

In the "Heavyweight Encore: #2 Gregor" episode of Heavyweight, Jonathan Goldstein revisits a poignant story involving his friend Gregor and the renowned musician Moby. The episode delves into themes of friendship, missed opportunities, and the quest for closure, all while maintaining the show's signature blend of humor and heartfelt reflection.

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Revisiting the Past

The episode opens with Jonathan reaching out to Gregor, revealing an interesting fact: Gregor has never listened to the original Heavyweight episode centered on him. Gregor admits, “[...], I've never actually listened to the episode. I really don't want to break my streak of never listening to anything I make, but I'm told it was good” (00:36). This admission sets the stage for a journey to uncover unresolved tensions from the past.

Key Quote:

“I've never actually listened to the episode. I really don't want to break my streak of never listening to anything I make, but I'm told it was good.” – Gregor (00:36)

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The Central Conflict: Missing CDs

At the heart of the episode is Gregor's lingering grievance: Moby never returned a set of rare Alan Lomax CDs that Gregor had lent him two decades ago. These CDs were instrumental in shaping Moby's award-winning album, Play. Gregor's frustration stems not just from the missing items but from what they represent—a desire for acknowledgment and closure.

Backstory: Gregor and Moby shared a deep friendship in their twenties, discussing music, God, and life. Gregor lent Moby the Sounds of the South box set by Alan Lomax, which Moby heavily sampled for his multi-platinum album, Play. Despite the success that followed, Gregor never received the CDs back, leading to years of strained communication.

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Attempts to Reconnect

Determined to retrieve the CDs, Gregor initiated multiple attempts to contact Moby, including leaving voice messages and even composing a humorous song titled "Moby, Give Me Back My CDs" (05:19). However, these efforts were met with silence, leaving Gregor feeling undervalued despite Moby's monumental success.

Key Quote:

“This guy’s Moby. Bald headed, bespectacled, castle dwelling, multi-million record selling Moby.” – Jonathan Goldstein (08:59)

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The Reunion Effort

With the door to reconciliation seemingly open through a group email initiated by Gregor's brother, Dimitri, Jonathan accompanies Gregor to Los Angeles in hopes of addressing the unresolved issue. The journey is fraught with anxiety, as both Gregor and Moby express doubts about the outcome.

Interaction Highlights:

• Moby’s Concerns: Moby voices apprehensions about the encounter, fearing embarrassment and doubting Jonathan's ability as an interlocutor.

  “I think you're going to be a lousy interlocutor.” – Moby (23:46)

• Jonathan’s Determination: Despite Moby's reservations, Jonathan is resolute in facilitating the meeting, setting the stage for an emotional confrontation.

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Confrontation and Conversation

Upon meeting, the interaction is tense. Moby initially appears distant, emphasizing his own success and the unintended consequences of Gregor’s actions. The conversation is interrupted by RuPaul's unexpected cameo, which adds an additional layer of surrealism to the encounter.

Notable Moment: RuPaul shares an emotional anecdote about the impact of the CDs, illustrating the profound effect Gregor's gift had beyond Moby's own career.

“Two of the most remarkably iconic songs on the record would never have been written or existed had I not been given those CDs.” – RuPaul (37:04)

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Unresolved Tensions

Despite heartfelt discussions, the primary goal of retrieving the CDs remains unmet. Moby acknowledges the symbolic importance of the CDs but reveals he has no intention of returning them, ultimately leading Gregor to confront the futility of his quest.

Key Quote:

“It makes me feel like thinking about, you know, getting a pair of bolt cutters and breaking into a steady storage in Queens is not what I'm going to do.” – Moby (38:26)

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A Shifting Perspective

The episode concludes with Gregor realizing that his pursuit of the CDs was more about seeking validation than the physical objects themselves. This epiphany highlights a universal theme of letting go and finding peace beyond material resolutions.

Final Reflection: Gregor acknowledges his initial desire for the CDs but ultimately understands the importance of moving forward without them.

“I think it's all, let go. Let go of everything.” – Gregor (48:17)

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Conclusion

"Heavyweight Encore: #2 Gregor" masterfully navigates the complexities of long-standing friendships, the weight of unresolved issues, and the journey towards personal closure. Through candid conversations and unexpected interactions, Jonathan Goldstein offers listeners a profound exploration of what it means to seek resolution in relationships that have significantly impacted one's life.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Gregor on Not Listening to the Episode:

  “I've never actually listened to the episode. I really don't want to break my streak of never listening to anything I make, but I'm told it was good.” – Gregor (00:36)

• Moby on His Career and the CDs:

  “It makes me feel like thinking about, you know, getting a pair of bolt cutters and breaking into a steady storage in Queens is not what I'm going to do.” – Moby (38:26)

• RuPaul on the Impact of the CDs:

  “Two of the most remarkably iconic songs on the record would never have been written or existed had I not been given those CDs.” – RuPaul (37:04)

• Gregor’s Realization:

  “I think it's all, let go. Let go of everything.” – Gregor (48:17)

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Timestamps Reference

For ease of navigation, all timestamp references are linked directly within the summary above. Each quote and key moment includes a corresponding timestamp to facilitate a deeper understanding of the episode's flow and significant points.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus solely on the core narrative and discussions within the episode.

Transcript

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Pushkin.

[Gregor]

Joni.

[Moby]

To what do I owe the pleasure?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you know why I'm phoning you?

[Gregor]

I really don't.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, I was intending to re release the Gregor episode for which it is named for you.

[Gregor]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So that a new generation of heavyweight listeners can enjoy it.

[Gregor]

Oh, okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When was the last time you listened to the episode?

[Gregor]

I mean, to be completely honest with you. And why should I be anything other than completely honest at all times and forthright.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Gregor]

Almost disturbingly, vulnerably frank with you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Gregor]

I've never actually listened to the episode.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I can't believe that.

[Gregor]

I really don't want to break my.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Streak of never listening to anything I.

[Moby]

Make, but I'm told it was good.

[Gregor]

I mean, a lot of people paid me a lot of compliments, people I'd meet in the supermarket.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So what I was thinking might be sort of a nice thing for us to do is maybe listen to it together. I guess for you, for the first.

[Gregor]

Time, I'm willing to do this. But are you telling me that your concept for your brand new Alexander Pushkin hate show.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Gregor]

Is gonna be a podcast of me listening to a previous podcast? I mean, I don't mean to, like, ridicule you on your own hip show, but, like.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, of course not.

[Gregor]

Are you out of your mind? We're gonna listen to a podcast?

[Moby]

Who wants to listen to a podcast.

[Gregor]

Let alone listen to me listen to a podcast?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, no. I mean, we're not gonna. Okay. All right. Well, with that, I guess I'll speak to you on the other side.

[Moby]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All right. I'll talk to you at the end. Oh, but before we get to this encore presentation, a word from our sponsors. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Justin Richmond]

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[Annika]

Bad time? I was just. Just stepping out. I was just.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You enjoy music, right?

[Annika]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This week's show kind of deals with music, and it got me thinking. I have A confession to make. You know how sometimes, like, you have dinner parties, and they're great? I wanted to say sometimes. How you sometimes play music. Yeah, sometimes I'm a little hesitant to come over for dinner.

[Annika]

You're always hesitant to come over for dinner. Including. Including Mary Clode's 45th birthday. Do you remember that?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I do. You know that bumbleo song?

[Annika]

I can't find my Gypsy King cd.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Cause your husband hid it.

[Annika]

It's killing me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's killing everybody. The reason sometimes I have some difficulty with my digestion, these dinner parties, is it's the Bombalayo song. It's the Gypsy Kings. Oh, this is great. You know what Bombaleo Bombalea translates as? What? Wobble wobble.

[Annika]

All right, we'll speak to you later.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, no, but wait. One thing before we go. Okay? I'm gonna say bombaleo, and then you say Bombalaya. I'm not. Do it. I'm just. And then I'll let you go.

[Anika]

Bye.

[Annika]

Bye.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode. Gregor.

[Moby]

This guy's gonna ram you from behind. Cause you're going 11 miles an hour.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do I make a left?

[Moby]

Although usually don't do it from the right lane, but. Okay, let's not get killed. Do you have a driver's license?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Gregor and me on our way to lunch. And what you're hearing is typical. When I'm driving, Gregor comments on my speed. When I eat, he comments on my table manners. And when I eat yogurt, he comments on the way I lick the inside lid, calling it both lecherous and unmanly. Some might say that Gregor is overly critical, possibly even prickly. But I would not. I love Gregor for many reasons. His loyalty, his generosity. His being the kind of person who will pick you up at the airport at 4 in the morning without even complaining. But it's perhaps his courage to say the things that we're all not exactly thinking, but maybe thinking about thinking. That is most thrilling. And so when he showed up at my office, mocking himself instead of me and speaking in biblical parables, I was concerned.

[Moby]

Was it the pharaoh in the Joseph story who said, the seven lean years and seven fat years?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Moby]

I had this insight today that the fat years are about to end with.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

These have been the fat years.

[Moby]

That's what I realized. Literally this morning, I woke up and I was like, wait, those were the fat years? You know, in every conceivable way. Financially stability, prestige, all the job stuff. And, like, creative accomplishment stuff. I just feel like it's like going up in smoke, and I'm watching it go up in smoke.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Gregor is 48 years old, and by profession he makes marketing videos for a cleaning product usually found in the bathroom. I can't tell you the name of this product for fear Gregor will lose his job. In other words, he's not the film auteur he dreamt of being back in his college days, underlining back issues of Cahier de Cinema. On top of that, he says that over the past few years, he's seen his career slowly suck downward, not unlike, oh, I don't know, the spiraling waters of a sink unclogged by a chemical drain opener designed to flush pipes and attack clogs at their worst.

[Moby]

What's that children's game where everyone goes around the chairs. Musical chairs, musical chairs. And everyone sits down, and you're like, oh, that friend of mine became a CEO. These four friends are like, evp, svp, Senior, whatever, at their things. That friend of mine wound up sitting in the President of Estonia's chair. And then you're like, the music stops and you're left standing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I've heard him reel off this list before, and Gregor fully admits it. The success of anyone he knows, no matter how thin his connection to them, feels like a reflection of his own shortcomings, including the ascension of his elementary school's librarian son, who is now the president of Estonia.

[Moby]

Point of the story is, where's my presidency of my Estonia, my circumstance? I was always like, oh, things will, you know, about to break through, about to change. And now, like, you could say, well, this is just a setback. It's, you know, whatever. Soon your ship's gonna come in. But it's just not, you know, I mean, that's just the simple truth, the.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Uncomfortable truth of all Gregor's stories about the success of his acquaintances and friends. There's one story that he returns to most, and not only is it the greatest success story of them all, it's the one that touched his life the most intimately. The story all begins about 20 years ago in Manhattan, when Gregor was living in a small apartment in Chinatown with his older brother, Dimitri. One night, they had a friend of theirs over for dinner, a techno musician friend.

[Moby]

He was really poor at the time. He was living in, like, I think in, like, a basement in a warehouse or something for $40 a month. And he was an articulate, smart guy, still an articulate smart guy, but he was sort of an unlikely rock star in that his hair had mostly fallen out even when we were still in our 20s. But I watched his ascent and he played to bigger and bigger crowds doing this techno kind of stuff. And then eventually he got a record contract and I at the time got a hold of a very obscure set of CDs which were field hollers. I thought it was really interesting stuff. I loaned him this box set of CDs. He then sampled it very heavily, don't.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Know that I know my trouble, God.

[Moby]

And created a record which got him very rich and very famous.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This guy you're speaking of.

[Moby]

This guy's Moby.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby. Bald headed, bespectacled, castle dwelling, multi million record selling Moby. But back then he was just Gregor's pal who spent weekends at Gregor's family's place and attended family birthday parties too. In bars and during long car rides, Gregor and Moby had long earnest conversations about God and the things they believed. They were living their twenties together and those CDs Gregor lent Moby. The box set Sounds of the south was recorded by the ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax beginning in the 1930s. Lomax and his father John made thousands of field recordings, mostly in the American South. These recordings are among the most important in American music, preserving dozens of African American songs from the early years of the 20th century. Another hit on Moby's album is called Honey. It makes use of the song sometimes sung by Bessie Smith Jones. Jones was taught these songs by her grandfather, a former slave born in Africa. This is Moby's version.

[RuPaul]

So is everybody feeling alright?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I've here elected to play for you the live version of the song with all of its foot stomping and audience cheering. It's how I imagine Gregor hears it echoing in his head during those sleepless nights when his kishkas are slowly being crossed, corroded by battery acid.

[Moby]

When I discovered this CD set, I was like an evangelist. I was like, this is amazing. You got to check this out. He was over the house and I was like, you got to take this home. This is amazing stuff. This is the best CD I've heard in I don't know how long I've been listening to Non Stop Rotation. I love the cd. So it wasn't just laying in a pile and he happened to put it in his bag and walk out the door. I said, I sold him on it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby makes use of several Lomax recordings on his album Play, which went multi platinum. Play eventually became one of the most commercially licensed albums ever recorded at the time the songs were used to promote everything from luxury cars to credit cards. And before play, according to Rolling Stone Magazine, Moby was, quote, bumbling around New York as a has been. And then was there an intermediary step before that? And then hearing it on the cd, where he said, hey, by the way, thanks.

[Moby]

No, I said, this is an amazing thing. The next thing I heard, it's on the radio, and I said, hey, can I get that box set back? And then, years of not being friends.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And according to Gregor, that was all he wanted, to get his CDs back. He was looking for neither riches nor credit, just the CDs, which he claims were only a loan. And so this is how it went. He began leaving Moby voice messages. By Gregor's count, about a dozen, that all went unanswered. Then, in a final act of desperation, Gregor penned a song called Moby, Give me back my CDs, which he sang into Moby's answering machine with accompanying karaoke music to the tune of Bryan Adams. Heaven. After much cajoling, Gregor dug up his lyrics, which I will now perform for you. Moby, Give me back my CDs. The recordings from the field, the Alan lomax box set. CDs. I think there were seven. Those discs are all that I need. The ones I gave you from my house, I think you'll be sure to see. There were seven. And that message, Gregor says, was met with over a decade of silence. Did he ever explain, like, did he just ever come out and tell you honestly what became of those CDs?

[Moby]

No, I think he was busy, like, playing, like, you know, a concert to 90,000 people in Reykjavik and drinking champagne out of a prostitute's shoe. Couldn't be bothered. Obviously, I put an exaggerated value on the CDs. I'm sure he could have sampled anything. And he had a plenty big career before that and after that. I mean, I'm not insane, but it was more that displaced feeling of, like, I had this thing go off and bloom without me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Mm.

[Moby]

I'll tell you an interesting detail on that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Moby]

Whenever Moby music comes on, I can't listen to it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But you think if you get it back, you won't feel that way?

[Moby]

I feel like I could work it through, like, therapy where I could then listen to the music again. You know, there's a sense of, what about my.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know, where's my gold album?

[Moby]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Gregor has theories about why nothing ever happened for him. And they revolve around an aspect of his personality, an aspect he refers to as a lack of affability.

[Moby]

Like, a lot of times I'll say something completely earnestly, like, past the water. And they're like, are you being sarcastic? Like, that happens to me all the time.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How could you ask for the water sarcastically?

[Moby]

I come across as being sarcastic when I'm not.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So it's almost like a handicap of.

[Moby]

It's a huge handicap. I think it's fundamentally, as I understand my own life, that is my cross to bear. That's what's wrecked my life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, I think you would even like you told me that story about where you were in the conference room at work. They were, like, complimenting you on your new glasses or something and saying, hey, what does your wife think of those glasses? And you were like, how the fuck do I know? Why don't you ask my wife to find out? Do you remember?

[Moby]

Yeah, I remember. I mean, so they said, like, what does your wife think of that? I was like, how do I know? Ask my wife.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Recently, Gregor and Moby have found themselves back in touch, though in the most tangential, impersonal way possible, through group emails and texts. Gregor's older brother, Dimitri, remained friends with Moby over the years. And Dimitri recently had a baby. So he loops in Moby, Gregor, and one other old friend on updates. This has evolved into a small group of friends exchanging witticisms and fun facts. Like, did you know that the fatty flesh around the elbow is called a wenus? So while the new group email friendship isn't the same as the old close one, it's still an open door. And so I couldn't help asking the question, now that that door has swung open again, do you see this as an opportunity to ask for those CDs once again?

[Moby]

I was thinking about it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Were you?

[Moby]

Just because it's kind of a little symbolic.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Of what?

[Moby]

I don't even have a CD player anymore.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Right.

[Moby]

But I was just thinking, for talismanic purposes, it would be interesting to have them back.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Say more about that.

[Moby]

I think that it might soothe me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you really think it would?

[Moby]

I'll actually give you the clarity which just came to me now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Moby]

It's not. Instead of the money and the fame and all that stuff, what it is is tangible evidence. You understand? You did this. You exist. You did it. You pulled it off.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You want to be able to say, see these CDs on the shelf?

[Moby]

That's the ones that I gave to Momi. Because for me, this would just be a version of proof.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wanting the CDs you lent someone decades ago. And expecting them back is, of course, insanity. But insanities repeated often enough, especially between friends, can begin to feel pacifying, lulling, even. So. Excuse me. In a way, you just want your due.

[Moby]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you think you can articulate that in a way that would make it understandable to him, do you think?

[Moby]

I'm pretty confident I can't. Cause he's still pretty sensitive.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, pretty sensitive. Pretty sensitive like the time Moby seemed to bristle when Gregor emailed him about something totally innocuous. A condolence for the death of Moby's friend, David Bowie.

[Moby]

You know, I said some witty thing about David Bowie dying. He wrote, like, texted back, like, the picture of him and David Bowie on the COVID of Entertainment.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Let's back up for a moment. What was the witty thing you said about David Bowie's death?

[Moby]

You know, like, good night, funnyman.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What does that even mean?

[Moby]

That's usually what I say when people die.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If this is a sampling of the hot takes Gregor has in store, I fear that this newly opened door between Moby and Gregor might not remain open forever. I also knew that if he has any hope of ever getting back those CDs, he'll need a middleman. Or interlocutor. Or interlocutor. So, perhaps, against my better judgment, I allow myself to be swept up by the moment. I just don't know if this is going to lead to anything but heartbreak. But why don't we go after the CDs?

[Gregor]

All right.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And with that ringing call to arms, my path was set and the mission begun. Say I'm Moby. Like, how would you ask, hey, Moby.

[Moby]

Can I have those CDs? I've never understood any approach other than the direct approach, so that's what I would do.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

After the break, the Hollywood Hills. A surprise encounter with RuPaul. And maybe Moby. Maybe. The airline tickets were purchased, the hotel was booked. But a couple days before we were set to leave for la, I got nervous. If Gregor already was in a bad place, could my meddling possibly make things worse?

[Anika]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, Anika.

[Anika]

Yes, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I decide to reach out to the person who knows Gregor best.

[Moby]

Can you go out with Daddy?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. His wife, Annika. So, do you know about this little project that your husband and I are undertaking?

[Anika]

So I think the. Is it the strategy to, like, ambush Moby and try and get him to give back the CDs that he lent Gregor 30 years ago? Or however long it was ago? Is that true?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You make it sound like such a classy operation.

[Anika]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Has Gregor brought this issue up to you before this whole Alan Lomax CD issue.

[Anika]

So I met him on November 11, 2000.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Anika]

And it came up pretty early in our relationship. So he.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, like, first date conversation.

[Anika]

It was definitely early on. It's very hard for him to let stuff go. And like, even, like early on in our relationship, we went to Spain together and we bought a bottle of olive oil in some town or something and we left it by accident in the rental car. And it still bothers him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you know, I think I actually know that olive oil story.

[Anika]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. There is something that is in his character that is very much like the Larry David character where it's like, you know, like obsessing about a very small point. But, you know, he's a very. He's like a very sensitive. So it's just part of who he is and part of his wonderful package.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Does this undertaking have your blessing or do you think it's foolhardy?

[Anika]

I don't. Sometimes I worry about Gregor's feelings because he is very hurt very easily. And I don't know if Moby is really that sensitive to his feelings.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi, Johnny. Gregor flew in from San Francisco and I was there to greet him at the Bob Hope International Airport in Burbank.

[Moby]

So this is the dream factory I've heard about.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's beautiful here. Even the underground parking lots smell like suntan lotion. We have four hours before our appointment with Moby, so we set off in our economy sized Kia Rio or similar to experience everything LA has to offer. Are you excited?

[Moby]

Uh, yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You don't sound excited.

[Moby]

No, I'm full of anxiety. And let me tell you, I feel an increasing sense of dread about the futility of this undertaking.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're gonna get those CDs back, my friend.

[Moby]

Okay, whatever you say.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In a plastic bag. Which he'll supply.

[Moby]

You're gonna negotiate this like my agent. At which time of my client's choosing? The one plastic bag. Recycled. Acceptable. Plus one coupon. Good for any flavor from Baskin Robbins ice cream. Or any substitute there, too.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

With just three hours and 59 minutes to go, things were off to a rollicking start. It's like not moving.

[Moby]

There's always traffic in Los Angeles.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, but seriously, look at the traffic. Are we gonna make it to Moby's?

[Moby]

Yeah, we're gonna be stuck in horrible traffic. We have until two.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, we have until one.

[Moby]

Oh, really? We'll never make it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, look, there's the big Hollywood sign. Wow, what a sight, huh? Used to say Hollywoodland.

[Moby]

Actually, before that it was called Hollywoodland Ville.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is that true?

[Moby]

Do you want Mexican food? Do you ever eat Mexican food?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I love Mexican food. To make u turn, yes or no?

[Moby]

Yeah. Go, go, go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is like a four lane. Uey.

[Moby]

It's six. Really? Go, go, go, go. Yes. When you induce someone before they were famous and you treat them like someone who's not famous, sometimes they don't like that. Sometimes they're used to the deference and the rock star treatment from everyone.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Can you try to treat them with a little more deference?

[Moby]

That's what I'm gonna try to. But the mask always slips.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Insofar as me coming here with you, how do you feel about me as an interlocutor?

[Moby]

I'm actually full of dread. Mostly because of that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What is that supposed to mean?

[Moby]

Because I recognize that I need an interlocutor. I did say that, and I do believe it. I think that you're going to be a lousy interlocutor.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You think I'm gonna embarrass you in front of your famous friends?

[Moby]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's what you're afraid of?

[Moby]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, but seriously, you think I'm gonna blow this?

[Moby]

I just feel like you don't get the vibe of what it's like when you're in a guy's house and you're gonna be like, say, nice toilets. What are these made of porcelain? Hey, I'm gonna be like, johnny, please. And he'll be like, no, I don't know what they're made of.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That is to me, the final irony of this whole thing. That you're concerned that I'm gonna embarrass you.

[Moby]

I don't want you to trip me up in my game, my stride, my cadence.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And what is gonna be a part of your game here?

[Moby]

To try and relax and be myself. But I'm gonna be made self conscious when you're like, do you validate parking here? I just need you to validate.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

God, this is so pretty. What a pretty place to live.

[Moby]

Yeah, well, you sell enough CDs you can live in a place like this.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Worried about our being tardy, I decided to run down the clock doing laps around Moby's very pretty block.

[Moby]

Little tiny houses.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I keep going straight. This is really pretty. Nice view of the mountains.

[Moby]

This is his house right here.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Where?

[Moby]

Right here. Want to drive by it?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This house right there at the corner. We were passing the gates of his home over and over when. A half hour before our appointed meeting.

[Moby]

That's Moby. Right there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is it?

[Moby]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, Jesus. Moby emerges through the gates to get his newspaper. Excited about seeing an honest to goodness famous person, I instinctively slowed to a crawl and pulled over beside him. Go say hi.

[Moby]

No, no.

[RuPaul]

Come on.

[Moby]

No, let him go. Keep going.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

He just turned around.

[Moby]

He didn't see anything.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yes, he did. He turned around and we made eye contact. I like. I slid right up to him and he turned around and he seemed scared.

[Moby]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What did I do?

[Moby]

Your creepy instincts kick in.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Why is it creepy?

[Moby]

You don't slide up to people when they're going to get their paper. It's true.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I really did slide up to him.

[Moby]

Yeah, you did. Like a creep. You're gonna go another pass through. What if he comes up for his milk?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We walk off our nerves in a nearby park where Gregor dispenses life wisdom to a passing toddler.

[Moby]

Enjoy it, kid. As best it's gonna be for the rest of your life.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Who says things like that to a child?

[Moby]

He's happy, in love. His shirt said love. He's holding a little girl's hat.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Outside Moby's door, we do some last minute strategizing.

[Moby]

Am I supposed to be the good cop or the bad cop? I can't remember.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, I guess you were supposed to be the bad cop. No, I'm the bad cop, you're the good cop.

[Moby]

I usually play the bad cop.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So fine, you're the bad cop.

[Moby]

It's 1257. It's not really one yet.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'll wait. Oh, hello.

[Moby]

Hi. I'm sorry we're early. It's 12:57. It's three minutes too early.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby's personal assistant, a terrifyingly fit woman in jeans and T shirt, leads us towards Moby's home. By rock star standards, it's pretty modest.

[Moby]

Hello. Hello. Hi, Chairman Mo. It's been far too long. Should I take shoes off?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi, I'm Jonathan. We're led into a sunken foyer where a couple of assistants are gathering equipment and making themselves scarce. Standing at the top of the stairs, looking not unlike a bald headed gray hooded Norma Desmond is Moby Gregor and he do not hug or even shake hands. They don't even wave.

[Moby]

It's been far too long, my friend.

[RuPaul]

Where are you staying and why are you in la?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Gregor drops his bag and has a look. See?

[Moby]

Beautiful location, your beautiful assistant, everything beautiful.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

He's even brought along a thoughtful gift. Something to cater to Moby's strict veganism and clean, healthy lifestyle. Fancy. All Natural lemonades.

[Moby]

Something disgusting with turmeric.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Whoa.

[Moby]

Something awful with probiotic cayenne peppers. Something horrifying with lemons.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

To our parched dismay, Moby takes the beverages and places them in the fridge. Gregor and I are never to see those beverages again. As we settle in and I set up our recording gear, Gregor notices a pile of video equipment.

[Moby]

Why do you have two C3 hundreds here?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Remember that slippery mask Gregor mentioned? The one hiding his rough edges? 10 seconds in and it was already a slip in.

[Moby]

Why am I not involved? I produce films all the time. I can help you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

To which Moby, rather than saying he's worked with David lynch and David LaChapelle and is probably all set on that front, instead says, I mean, you live in San Francisco.

[Moby]

Yeah, but I'm here all the time. Not literally in your living room, in your kitchen. Although I could be more often.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Gregor can't help treating Moby like a nephew making his first student film. That is, Gregor's treating Moby the way he treats me. And this, of course, is concerning.

[Moby]

First of all, before we even get that far. How would you like.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

At this point, Moby has mostly no idea why we're here. I made an appointment with his assistant, but it was left vague. So Moby takes the direct approach.

[RuPaul]

So, what are you guys doing?

[Moby]

Well, this is an excellent question. Well, let's begin at the beginning, around the time contemporaneous with your recent autobiography, the mid-90s, 2000s.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And like, after all of his braggadocio about how he was going to walk in there and demand a CD's back, Gregor's nervous, being uncharacteristically mealy mouthed, unable to explain the basics of our mission.

[Moby]

And so this conversation became down this kind of alleyway of that facet of, like, I was kind of like, what is that?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby had limited time. So at the risk of embarrassing Gregor in front of his famous friend, I decide to step in and explain. So can I tell my story of you coming to. Last time I saw Gregor, he came to visit me at work, and you were kind of in this mood where you were feeling like maybe those things that you were hopeful about achieving were not gonna be happening. I think you were in. While Gregor looks on skeptically, I try to explain to Moby Gregor's midlife malaise how everyone was passing him by. Can you relate to the feeling of, like, have you ever, at different points in your life, felt, like, surpassed by your friends or. You know what I mean?

[RuPaul]

Oh, yeah. Like, there's always going to Be someone doing so much better than you that if you spend the time to look at it, you're gonna feel bad about yourself. Like my nemesis, well, according to him for a while was Eminem. So if he was my nemesis, I was just being beaten publicly and badly because he was always more successful, always selling more records, always more popular, always cooler. And so depends on who I was comparing myself to over time, like other people start selling more records, getting better reviews, you start selling fewer tickets. And then as the 2000s progressed, my career waned and other people's escalated. You know, like I would go to visit my record company and they would have my picture behind the receptionist desk. And then one day I show up and it's Jack White's picture behind the receptionist desk. I'm like, what?

[Moby]

Yeah, I mean, I think the only way to hear that honestly is in the split screen between totally head nodding, 100 agree and totally. Like easy for you to say because you're looking down from the mountain, looking up, you're like, I'm gonna fucking knock that guy off the mountain because all I need is my million dollars. Then I'll look down.

[RuPaul]

But really, the kick in the teeth of fame is that if you don't have it, you beat yourself up that you don't have it. And if you do have it, you're miserable and you kill yourself. Literally the most depressed I've ever been in my entire life was the height of my professional success. And I remember this one moment so clearly. I was at an MTV awards in Barcelona. And there's this hotel called the Arts Hotel in Barcelona, and it's so beautiful. And at the tippety top of the hotel, they have four three bedroom apartments. And I was in one, P. Diddy was in one, Jon Bon Jovi was in one, and Madonna was in one. And so you take like one elevator to get to a certain floor, then another elevator to another floor, and then a security guard would wave you through up to our hallowed floor. And the first night I was there, I invited some people over to like look at the view and drink. And I kept drinking by myself and I got more and more despondent. And I literally, at the end of the evening before going to bed, was walking around this beautiful, insane apartment crying, thinking about how I could get out the window to kill myself. And the next day I won an MTV award. So it's like professionally things couldn't have been better. You know, the day before I played a huge concert selling lots of records. The day after won an award Played more huge concerts, and I've never been more despondent.

[Moby]

I appreciate your making up that story just to make me feel good.

[RuPaul]

It's completely true, because I remember walking around this hotel and these walls of glass only had these little bitty, like, foldy open windows at the bottom. And I was looking at that, and I was like, fuck, if that window opened more, I would just jump out and die, because I'm done. You think when you get to where you want to go, finally you'll be happy. But then you get to where you want to go, and. And you're just as miserable as you were. In fact, you're even less miserable. You're even more miserable because you no longer have anything to aspire to. And you feel this hopelessness because everything, like, what's left to aspire towards?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It feels like Moby's trying to explain something to Gregor. Moby grew up poor with a single mother and lived on food stamps. When Moby was a kid, his dad died in a car crash, and a few years ago, his mom passed away from lung cancer. He has no siblings, so essentially, he's alone.

[RuPaul]

I look at Gregor and I think of, like, I know his family very well, and from my perspective, like, first of all, he has a. Like, I don't really. I have some aunts and uncles and cousins. You have some other siblings, I'm sure. And to me, that still makes me feel like, oh, he's figured out things that I don't understand.

[Moby]

Of course, I'm very successful, and then I have a beautiful child and blah, blah, blah. Two of them, actually. I won't say which one. I have two children. One is beautiful anyway. You know, the. Like, a man's wealth is measured in family, you know, but it's not.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You turn. Every time these things come up, you always make them into, like.

[Moby]

Well, what I'm saying is something that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You hear at the end of south part, right?

[RuPaul]

Yes.

[Moby]

But what I'm saying is that that era when, like, it still seemed like life had potential to go a bunch of different ways, now it seemed less so. It's not even squandered potential. It's just like, you could have been somebody becomes like, you didn't.

[RuPaul]

Every year you lose a little bit of potential. You know, like, at this point, like, I'm 50, and I'm like, oh, most of my life, I thought at some point I could be a father. I'm like, well, probably not. And I have one issue.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

I really have to pee.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Go ahead. While Moby was Conveniently indisposed. I took the opportunity to reiterate our mission. Getting back the CDs. As much as it behooves you like, just try to keep it about the CDs, all right?

[Moby]

I think we only have about 10 minutes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, that's what I want to get to do.

[Moby]

You want me to wrestle him to the ground and. No, you have something particular you want me to say?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby emerges from the bathroom, cutting our conversation short. And Gregor steps up to the plate and begins in the middle.

[Moby]

Yeah, I still listen to Sounds of the south on YouTube. They have the full set. And as far as that actual dissect. Did you hang on to that or.

[RuPaul]

That's the CD. It's a box set of CDs.

[Moby]

The actual stuff.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, they're somewhere. Most of it's in storage in Queens. So you've got these like this medium sized storage locker that's just like packed to the rafters with stuff.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Finally, it's my moment to be the interlocutor. I think Gregor sort of wanted those CDs back, if only to put them on a mantle, to feel like I was a part of something, like I mattered, I existed.

[Moby]

I mean, I view this more like I handed you the pen and then you wrote, you know, the great book with it. It's not that I had some role.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In, but like the guy who introduced Andy Warhol to. To the can of Campbell soup or whatever.

[Moby]

To me, this is not like a legal deposition where it's like, who said it? I mean, it was fucking 25 years ago.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But as Gregor and I parry, it's almost like we forget that Moby's even there when suddenly he pipes up one.

[RuPaul]

Thing just to be super clear from the album play. Two of the most remarkably iconic songs on the record would never have been written or existed had I not been given those CDs. Like, I didn't know who Alan Lomax was. And I that the box set called Sounds of the South, I didn't know it existed. And I certainly, like, it was an expensive box set. And there's no way I was going to walk into Tower records and spend $65 or however much it was going to be on a box set I knew nothing about from an archivist I'd never heard of. So, like, those are 100% the result of me being given those CDs.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wait, so we're saying Gregor's not getting the CDs back?

[RuPaul]

Okay, here's the story. A friend of mine, her mother died in a very Very sad, tragic way. And she came to me and she started crying, and she said that at the funeral, they played the song Natural Blues, and everyone in the church was crying, and it was one of the most powerful emotional moments of her life. And that wouldn't have ever existed if you hadn't given me those CDs. So to me, that's more priceless and precious than any sort of, like, objective, quantifiable metric.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You know? How does that make you feel?

[Moby]

I mean, it makes me feel like thinking about, you know, getting a pair of bolt cutters and breaking into a steady storage in Queens is not what I'm going to do. That was my plan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so Gregor doesn't get what he came for, but maybe not getting everything you want in the grander scheme isn't so bad.

[RuPaul]

One practical issue. So I have two podcast interviews to do today. You guys are the first. And the second. You're in good company. It's with RuPaul.

[Moby]

Nice.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Crazy.

[RuPaul]

I mean, if you wanted to, we could always drive there. That'd be fun. Like, if you guys want to get in the car with me, my girlfriend is coming here. She's gonna go with me because she's an obsessive RuPaul fan.

[Moby]

Oh, wow. Really?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Moby, his girlfriend. Gregor and I pile into Moby's Prius. Seen from the outside, Gregor seems happy to be a part of Moby's life again. He's even feeling comfortable enough to favor us with his famous John Travolta imitation.

[Moby]

I could drink tea. What do you think? I could drink tea. John Travolta. When she says, he says, why don't you have coffee with me sometime? She's like, in Manhattan, we don't drink coffee. We drink tea. And he's like, so what? I could drink tea.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And then, for whatever reason, Moby takes over my role of interlocutor and begins explaining Gregor's style to his girlfriend.

[RuPaul]

And Gregor is funny and at times, like, would maybe be here it comes. Honest in a way that people might be take offense to or at.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As Moby's learning firsthand, interlocuting for Gregor isn't so easy.

[RuPaul]

Hi, I'm here for RuPaul's podcast.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

At the hotel, we're shown into a conference room where we're greeted by RuPaul and his co host, Michel. As I trail behind Moby, for the first time in my life, I feel a part of a bona fide Hollywood entourage.

[RuPaul]

So we've been doing an interesting podcast because Gregor and I have known each other for 27 years.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is that all?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, that's all.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We watch as RuPaul interviews Moby. And when Moby says interesting things like, my mom was born in San Diego. In San Diego, what? RuPaul responds with engaged interest. And when Moby offhandedly mentions a song, RuPaul and Michel sing it. And as they do, I find myself thinking only one thing. Now, this is how you run a podcast. When Moby and Gregor say their goodbyes, Moby tells him that he'll be coming to San Francisco soon, and he'll be sure to give Gregor a call. And Gregor says he'd like that. But before parting, Gregor can't help giving it just one last nudge.

[Moby]

I have one more question for you. Can you just tell me the name of the storage facility where this seat is? No, it's for a friend. They need to store something in Queens. No, there was one place. I'm just thinking it's the same place.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Gregor's comfortable enough to joke around about something that had once plagued him, and Moby's comfortable enough to uncomfortably laugh along with him. All around. It feels pretty nice. So how did you feel about how that went?

[Moby]

I think it was cathartic.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, really, seriously. With some time to kill before our flight, Gregor and I decide to hike up to the observatory. Do you feel like he screwed you out of your CDs yet again?

[Moby]

The honest truth is, he did give me a good long song and dance about how we all learned a lesson and I didn't get the thing that I set out to get. But in seriousness, I honestly feel, in a funny sort of way, I got what I came for.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Which was what? You didn't get your CDs.

[Moby]

You see, you're a petty person. What you just saw, and apparently were deaf and couldn't hear, was a reconciliation with two guys after 25 years of slight estrangement.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you guys did get to be friends.

[Moby]

Yeah, I think we just buried the hatchet. This CD thing. Yeah, that's is a symbol. I mean, who cares about the cd?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But you were the one who cared about the cd.

[Moby]

Look, it's hard to come together and just hug it out. What you just witnessed was a version of hugging it out. Two men having a good cry. That's about the closest that I come.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, I think then. I think that was great. I think this was a success.

[Gregor]

I agree.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Still would have been nice to get your CDs back, though.

[Justin Richmond]

Of course.

[Moby]

I don't know if the rental car you got there had a.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

CD player, but it doesn't.

[Moby]

There would have been no better ending to this day than to drive out of the parking lot cranking that cd.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, but cars don't have. Nobody has CD players anymore.

[Moby]

And let me tell you something. If some Mobi song comes on the radio right now, I'd let it play. I'd even sing along.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you want me to find it on my phone and play?

[Moby]

That's okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You sure? Because I actually downloaded it. Especially in port. Three days later, and much to his surprise, Gregor received an email from Moby. This might sound odd, the email read, but I realized I never said a true heartfelt thank you for giving me those CDs. So, in all sincerity, thank you. I'm sorry it's taken so long to say thank you. Gregor said he was happier that the thank you came three days later. This way he knew it wasn't just out of politeness, that it must have been boring a hole through his head for days after receiving Moby's thank you, Gregor immediately wrote back a thank you of his own in the form of a joke, which, if you didn't know Gregor, could also be taken as an insult. But Moby did know Gregor. And so for Gregor, it was back to being a normal friendship. Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit, take this moment to decide if we meant it, if we tried.

[Moby]

Or felt.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Around for far too much. Well, so what you think the one.

[Gregor]

One guy was really giving. A funny guy. He was great.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So let me ask you, after the episode aired all those years ago, people have continued to wonder, did Moby ever eventually, you know, go to the storage unit and dig out your old CDs?

[Gregor]

Whatever number of years passed, five years later, Moby text me, oh, like, I was emptying out a storage container in Queensland, and I found the box set.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So he. So he. He found. He found the CDs, right?

[Gregor]

So I said, great. So I said, let's meet at the Griffith Observatory and you can hand me them. He lives right near. So he said, great, no problem. I'm like, you know, whatever. 10 o' clock on Tuesday. Great. No problem. The morning of, I'm like, okay. So, like, I'm just coming into the park now. I'm just.

[Moby]

I'll be up there.

[Gregor]

No response. And then I'm like, okay, I'm here. No response. And he doesn't, you know, he doesn't show. He's not there, doesn't answer anything. And I said something like, you know, if it's easier, I can just go by your house. I mean, I know you're right here. I can just walk over to it. And no response. And then I think, whatever the exact math was. But maybe the next day, he was like, oh, like. So I was, like, preparing for an interview, preparing for a press event.

[Moby]

I didn't need to see him.

[Gregor]

He could have left it in an envelope in the front porch or, like, give it to his assistant or whatever it was. You know, insofar as this whole experience was slightly. Not slightly. It was mostly symbolic. I felt like he was not ready to do that symbolic act.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

He's never given you the CDs back?

[Gregor]

No. So there are. No. So there was not. Is not a resolution to that particular drama.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My God. Goodness. And so you never said, hey, why don't you just drop those CDs in the mail for me?

[Gregor]

No. Because I feel like, to vastly oversimplify.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I.

[Gregor]

Won this story. I have a great life and a great family and all these things that are really what mattered to me. So whatever it was, I was seeking a hat. And I came to realize it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That was exactly what Moby was trying to tell you in the episode.

[Gregor]

I think sometimes you're not ready to hear things. You can't force the flower to open.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So maybe it's really. Maybe you owe Moby something. Maybe you. Have you ever told him that? You know, did you ever thank him for what he shared with you and.

[Gregor]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you want to do that? I mean, should we call him right now?

[Gregor]

I can hear the wheels turning in your greasy little head.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do so you feel like at this point, you know what? Moby, for whatever reason, isn't able to give you back those CDs, so let him have them.

[Gregor]

Yeah. I think it's all, let go. Let go of everything. And I'll tell you one other thing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Gregor]

There's a radio station in Portland that, for some reason, is streaming on the radio here, and they play a fair bit of Moby. And they played some the other day.

[Moby]

And I listened to it.

[Gregor]

I didn't turn it off, which I probably might have at a certain point.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You can listen to Moby music now.

[Gregor]

I listened to the song, and I was like, you know, pretty good song.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And that was it.

[Gregor]

I mean, I had some critical thoughts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Of course you did, Gregor. Thank you.

[Gregor]

All right, I'll talk to you later.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Talk to you later. Bye. Bye. Special thanks to everyone who helped put together our original Gregor episode way back when. We'll be back next week with another encore presentation, another heavyweight Bijou, as well as another update from one of our favorite guests. So stay tuned. This is an I Heart podcast.