The New NASCAR with Bubba Wallace

Summary

Here We Go Again With Kal Penn
Episode: The New NASCAR with Bubba Wallace
Date: May 12, 2026 | iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the historic roots and ongoing evolution of NASCAR, focusing on cultural change, inclusion, and the business of racing. Host Kal Penn sits down with Bubba Wallace—NASCAR’s celebrated driver and agent of change—to discuss Wallace’s personal journey, the modernization of the sport, the ban on the Confederate flag, and the landmark antitrust lawsuit involving his team, 2311 Racing. For anyone curious about why NASCAR still matters and how it's transforming, this is an in-depth look behind the wheel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bootlegger Origins and Evolution of NASCAR

[00:02 – 01:01]

• Kal Penn opens with a vivid description of NASCAR’s “bootlegger” heritage—fast cars, evading the law, and the spirit of innovation.
• The show sets up the theme of history repeating itself: from prohibition era race culture to today’s rapidly changing NASCAR.

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2. Bubba Wallace’s Early Racing Memories

[06:01 – 07:24]

• Wallace began racing at age 9, recalling his first race and early crash in Jasper, FL.
  • “I remember getting into a wreck… there was a fence I couldn’t see… I realized there was a fence in between myself and the car. So, yeah, that was nice… I asked my dad if we could fix it and get back out there… If I didn’t get spooked by that crash and asked to get back out there, then we’ll probably be in this for the long haul. And here we are 23 years later.” – Bubba Wallace [06:08]
• His early resilience signaled his lasting passion for racing.

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3. Breakout Moment in Racing

[07:24 – 08:21]

• Breakthrough year: 2011, winning at Dover in the K&N Series.
  • “That was that moment… We went on to win the race, so it was like, all right. That kind of solidified my thoughts there.” – Bubba Wallace [07:35]

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4. Talent, Recognition, and Controversy as a Young Driver

[08:43 – 09:39]

• Wallace discusses competing (and beating) much older drivers as a teen, and the mixed reactions—from admiration to protests.
  • “You had both sides of the fence, right? You had the people that hated that you’re winning... then you had other people just kind of accepted it: like, man, this kid’s good.” – Bubba Wallace [08:55]

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5. Encountering NASCAR’s History

[10:13 – 11:46]

• Wallace admits he didn’t know much about NASCAR’s deep bootlegger roots until his mid-teens.
  • “I didn’t know much… I remember them giving us, like, a NASCAR 101… when did NASCAR start? I was like, 2001. I don’t know.” – Bubba Wallace [10:28]
• Wallace reflects on winning at Indy but emphasizes that he’s present- and future-focused, not romantically invested in history.

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6. Inside the Brickyard 400 Win

[12:41 – 18:40]

• Kal Penn and Bubba Wallace dive deep into 2025’s Brickyard 400, a race Wallace won at Indianapolis:
  • Schedule changes from COVID era and back: condensed practice, qualifying formats.
  • Detailed, insider’s view of the race—strategy, inheriting the lead, drama of potential rainout, fuel anxiety, and Wallace’s determination.
  • “Part of me was like, oh my God, if this happens again where the rain, the race gets shortened, people are going to lose their minds. But then the other side, I was like, you know what, I want it to stop raining. I want to go back and earn this thing the right way.” – Bubba Wallace [16:55]
  • Wallace reveals they nearly ran out of fuel: “Had enough fuel. Come to find out, we had enough fuel for maybe another lap and a half, so… it was a damn good day.” – Bubba Wallace [18:34]

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7. Rule Changes and NASCAR’s Unique Structure

[22:57 – 26:56]

• NASCAR is unlike most sports leagues: family-owned by the Frances, not a collective of teams. Rule changes can be swift, often with little buy-in from drivers or teams.
• Bubba walks through the latest playoff format change (2026): only top-16 in points can race for the championship, not just race winners.
  • “Now, it doesn’t matter how many wins you have, you have to be top 16 in points. There is no more win and you’re locked in.” – Bubba Wallace [25:57]
  • He’s unbothered by frequent changes: “I have a job to do… I knew that going into it. So who am I to have an opinion on—well, I don’t think it’s fair when a B or C driver wins… No, they won. They beat me, and I gotta be better.” – Bubba Wallace [26:07]

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8. Culture Shift & The Confederate Flag Ban

[27:16 – 37:30]

• Penn sets the stage: NASCAR grew in the segregated South; the Confederate flag long a divisive symbol at races.
• Wallace discusses the 2020 Black Lives Matter movement, racing while Black or biracial in NASCAR, and his push to ban the flag:
  • “It took me, you know, a while to accept that, because prior to that, it was maybe 75 people like me or 80 people like me. And when I stood up for what I thought was right… kind of true colors... came about, even close, you know, friends of mine, family… I felt a responsibility.” – Bubba Wallace [30:29]
  • Wallace reflects on racial identity and labels: “People don’t realize that, you know, I do have a little bit more skin tone than… Ryan Blaney…” – Bubba Wallace [33:49]
  • On calling for the ban: “We have a whole demographic here that is eager to come out to a race. But a symbol, a flag is keeping them back. A symbol of hatred… You have to put yourself in everybody else’s shoes. I have no problem doing that. But some people don’t and they hang on to the heritage…” – Bubba Wallace [36:22]
  • Note: Dale Jr. had called for the ban years before, but it only became a reality after Wallace’s push in 2020.

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9. The 2311 Racing Antitrust Lawsuit

[42:29 – 48:44]

• 2311 Racing (owned by Michael Jordan, Denny Hamlin & Curtis Polk) and Front Row Motorsports filed an antitrust lawsuit against NASCAR for monopolistic practices and non-transparent revenue sharing.
• During the lawsuit, Wallace was told by PR not to comment.
  • “It was so easy for me not to give a damn about it... If it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be… Yes, it affected my livelihood… That’s how I am… I’m a 1 of 1…” – Bubba Wallace [43:58]
• He credits his team’s ownership for risking everything to change the business, noting that other teams benefited from the outcome without taking part.
  • “It was two of us. 2311 and front row motorsports were the only two teams to stand up to NASCAR… when the settlement happened, they’re like, oh man, this is great. It’s like, yeah, y’all didn’t do shit.” – Bubba Wallace [44:52]
• On the verdict and its significance:
  • “Just seeing the amount of satisfaction and joy that Curtis Polk had was just incredible to see. And it brought me a lot of joy… It’s nice to feel vindicated... you risked everything for something positive and to see it come out on the right end is just a win for everybody.” – Bubba Wallace [47:00]
  • Wallace admits he doesn’t know all the technical details but is proud to be part of a team that’s willing to lead change.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Resilience and Mindset:

  • “If I didn’t get spooked by that crash and asked to get back out there, then we’ll probably be in this for the long haul. And here we are 23 years later.” – Bubba Wallace [06:08]
  • “If it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be… If it doesn’t, okay, I’ll go find a new job. Okay.” – Bubba Wallace [44:48]

• Changing NASCAR’s Culture:

  • “When I stood up for what I thought was right... true colors of people kind of came about, even close, you know, friends of mine, family.” – Bubba Wallace [30:29]
  • “We have a whole demographic here that is eager to come out to a race. But a symbol, a flag is keeping them back. A symbol of hatred.” – Bubba Wallace [36:22]
  • “Dale Jr. called for it years prior… that was not a big deal when he asked for it.” – Bubba Wallace [37:30]

• On Winning and Teams:

  • “I knew that going into it. So who am I to have an opinion on… they won. They beat me, and I gotta be better.” – Bubba Wallace [26:07]
  • “It was two of us… when the settlement happened, they’re like, oh man, this is great. It’s like, yeah, y’all didn’t do [anything].” – Bubba Wallace [44:52]

• On Diversity and Identity:

  • “People don’t realize that… I do have a little bit more skin tone than, let’s say, Ryan Blaney. You know, I didn’t mean to pick probably the whitest dude in the garage, but it just so happened…” – Bubba Wallace [33:49]

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Important Timestamps

• NASCAR’s Bootlegger Roots: [00:02–01:01]
• First Race & Early Crash: [06:08]
• Breakthrough Win (Dover, 2011): [07:24–08:21]
• 1980s/90s NASCAR & Historical Awareness: [10:13–11:46]
• Brickyard 400 Breakdown & Near Rainout: [12:41–18:40]
• Rule Changes & Playoff Format Discussion: [22:57–26:56]
• Cultural Shift—Ban on Confederate Flag: [27:16–37:30]
• Antitrust Lawsuit & Team's Vision: [42:29–48:44]

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Takeaways for New and Longtime NASCAR Fans

• Bubba Wallace’s journey encapsulates NASCAR’s evolution: gritty beginnings, talent rising against odds, and the push for diversity and transparency.
• The sport is changing rapidly: new rules, new kinds of heroes, and a conscious reckoning with its Southern—and sometimes problematic—heritage.
• Wallace stands as a central force for progress, both behind the wheel and in the struggle for a more open, inclusive, and fair NASCAR.

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For listeners—new or old to NASCAR—this episode offers a blend of sports history, cultural insight, and high-octane storytelling, illuminating why NASCAR’s future might look very different from its past.

Transcript

[Cal Penn]

Imagine it's the 1920s, before the stock market crashed, before highways cut through the south, before drinking alcohol was legal, but people were doing it anyway. If you wanted booze in Appalachia, it was not arriving quietly. It came barreling down back roads in small, fast cars, driven by people who were always cutting corners with ingenuity. Bootleggers were a different kind of Uber eats. They were engineers making their cars run faster, hold heavier, and always carry an element of surprise. Some drivers rigged their vehicles to drop oil, nails, or clouds of smoke if the police got too close. Sort of like those old cartoons. Years after prohibition ended, those same drivers raced each other for pride, for money, and for bragging rights. That's the part most people forget. Those same bootleggers and moonshiners became some of the first competitors of NASCAR.

[Bubba Wallace]

So I'm running. I'm chasing down the 22. I get within a couple car lengths from him. He has a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit the lead. You know, I'm thinking, we got 50, 60 laps left, Freddy. My spotter comes over, and he's like, all right, new leader, 20 laps to go. And I'm like, oh, shit, we're getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop. And so I'm like, oh, I actually gotta wake up and try.

[Cal Penn]

Today I'm sitting down with legendary NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace, who just celebrated his first crown jewel victory. That was in July 2025 at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. What I admire about Bubba is he's also been on the forefront of changing the culture of NASCAR, and he's helped ban the Confederate flag from all NASCAR's races in 2020. And his team, 2311 Racing, which is partially owned by Michael Jordan, just settled an antitrust lawsuit against nascar. And he's here to help me understand how the sport has evolved.

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[Cal Penn]

Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and this is Here We Go Again, a show that takes today's trends and headlines and asks, why does history keep repeating itself?

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[Bubba Wallace]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Cal Penn]

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[Cal Penn]

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[Bubba Wallace]

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[Bubba Wallace]

on, let's try this again. Hello.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah, hey there. There you go.

[Bubba Wallace]

Nice.

[Cal Penn]

So you know this because we've known each Other for a while, but I, I did not grow up a NASCAR fan. So this is also for our, for our listeners who might be wondering why I wanted to do a NASCAR episode. I've been, have been a fan for almost 15 years. My fiance Josh grew up a huge NASCAR fan in Mississippi. And so when he and I started dating, that's what really got me.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

Into the sport. And it was, it was the combination of like, it was obviously the, the fast car thing, but it was science and engineering and then all of the drama between drivers and teams.

[Bubba Wallace]

Right, right, right.

[Cal Penn]

So for listeners who don't know what, what's your first memory of jumping into a car and, and putting your foot in the G? Because you were like nine, right?

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, I started racing. I was nine. My first memory, I mean, I remember my first race, it was the national event that was, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it big. So we went to the national event down in Jasper, Florida. I remember getting into a wreck and the track was raised up so like if you ran off track, you'd go down like a four foot drop, like an embankment, you know. And I've shipped it off of turn two or turn four, one of them. And I just remember like a, an old Chevy Suburban sitting there and I thought I was gonna smoke it, right? And I'm like, oh my God, I'm about to have. My dad's gonna have to pay for this car. And so like, I brace for impact and I come to like this really, really soft, like, impact, right. Like just kind of like a sponge. And I was like, in my life, right? And I realized there was a fence. I couldn't see the fence in between myself and the car. So, yeah, that was nice. And then I remember asking my dad if we could fix it and get back out there. And he said later on, like, he's like, okay, he's, he's hooked up. If I didn't get spooked by that crash and asked to get back out there, then we'll probably be in this for the long haul. And here we are 23 years later.

[Cal Penn]

So jumping from that to when your career took off, do you have a moment or a year that you consider like, hey, I'm like, doing this, doing this, it's starting to pay off.

[Bubba Wallace]

I would say a story I always go to is 2011. We were running in the K N series, the Arc of Menards east series. Now we were at Dover, last race of the season, qualified on the pole, was sitting there on the grid, and I was just like, you know, you have that minute or two before the pace car rolls, and you just, you know, making sure everything's in. In check. And it's like, man, this is a pretty cool gig. I'm having fun. You know, this would be cool to keep doing. Not that I had conversations of doing anything different. We went on to win the race, so it was like, all right. That kind of solidified my. My thoughts there. And so, yeah, that was what, 12. No, 15 years ago.

[Cal Penn]

Dang.

[Bubba Wallace]

15 years ago. That was that moment.

[Cal Penn]

So how old were you? You were like 15 or 16, right?

[Bubba Wallace]

I was born in 93, so 93 to 2011. I'll let you do the math.

[Cal Penn]

I don't do it that way. How old are you now?

[Bubba Wallace]

I'm 32.

[Cal Penn]

Okay.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

So you were like, 16. Ish.

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[Bubba Wallace]

Sure. Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

15 to 17 is what I'll say. I'm an actor for a reason. I do not do basic math.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

I mean, by the way, first of all, if you're. If you're that young, if you're, like, smoking older guys, are people mad or are they kind of in awe that, like, there's. Here's this younger guy with this talent?

[Bubba Wallace]

You had both sides of the fence, right? You had the people that hated that you're winning. You know, like, there's no way that this is legal. I mean, we were protested a lot of times because we were winning. And then you had other people that, you know, just kind of accepted it. Like, man, this kid's good. And I remember doing a late model test. This was 2008, and we were on the coast of North Carolina. But he came up to us after the. After the test was done, and he was like, if you race how you just tested, you guys are going to be fast. And we went back there. I think we finished third or fourth. It was. It was a good night. And for the first time being there, it was. It was a good night for us. And. And so, yeah, you have people on both sides.

[Cal Penn]

So this is, like, not that dissimilar to, like, when I was nominated for an Emmy. It was like a kids. It was like, in the kids category because I did a Santa Claus TV show. And I think there was, like, one child who was also nominated. I'm like, that kid better not win this Emmy. This child has her whole career. Yeah, don't do that. I mean, I didn't get it anybody. I think some other adult won it. I didn't feel proud about that feeling

[Bubba Wallace]

you'll have that, you know, jealousy is, is within all of our minds. Right. And, and it's just a matter of when that comes out.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah. Fair. When you were, I mean, I, I, I would say a kid, but really, if you're, like, you're winning races, you're, you're a younger athlete. How much did you know about the history of nascar? Like, at the, for our intro for this, we just did a little quick, quick thing on, like, the connection to, like, bootleggers, which I'm fascinated.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah, no, I didn't know much. I remember. So in 2010, and we did a, like, a reality competition show on BET called Changing Lanes. That's kind of where my name kind of skyrocketed was from that we were competitive. And, yeah, it was all, like, you know, documented and stuff. And so I remember them giving US like, a NASCAR 101. Like, you know, when did NASCAR start? And I was like, 2001. I don't know. You know, now it's, it's, you know, we're, I think this is what, 76 was this last year? 75, I think. So we're like, 75, 76, 77 years old now the sport is. Right. And it's crazy to think about. You know, I still go to winning at Indy. Right. Last year.

[Cal Penn]

Yep.

[Bubba Wallace]

That's just a massive win for us. That's a massive win for me because I was almost three years winless. I. Not in a negative way at all. I'm not downplaying the history or the previous winners, but doesn't matter to me. I don't care. Like, it's just something I've never really paid attention to, like, the history of things. It's just like, all right, I appreciate it, but I don't go out of my way to study these things and become an awe of them. That's just not who I am.

[Cal Penn]

That makes sense. In doing that show, were there things you learned that you were kind of into the idea of? For example, whenever you shoot something in a studio in la, Fox, Disney, Warner Brothers, they all have these little plaques outside of, let's say you're in stage 17. And it has every show or movie that was shot on that stage since, like, the 1920s.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

And so you're not thinking that when you come in, you're just like, I'm making my dumb dick jokes today. Here's my script. But then you see, you see that, you're like, oh, wow, Mary Poppins was here. That's crazy. Or so you know. Something like that.

[Bubba Wallace]

Right. I have those moments too. Like when we do, you know, shoots out there or even like, you know, the know, today's show or Good Morning America, when you, you see the people that have signed the wall and stuff, it's like, oh, that's cool. You know, they were just here before me or whatnot. And like, I, I appreciate that stuff in the moment.

[Cal Penn]

Last July, I would, I, I just want to, I want to ask you about the Brickyard 400. And for the listeners, for anyone who doesn't know, the Brickyard 400 is one of the most prestigious races in NASCAR. It's up there with the Daytona 500. It's a 400 mile race. It's 160 laps long. Drivers can be driving for two and a half, three hours, and it's a track that's known for being extremely tricky. So to win it, you can't just have raw speed. You have to drive with a certain level of precision and strategy. But also, like in context of your team, right? July 2025, really tough competition in that race. Kyle Larson, a whole bunch of others, you take the win. And like, what goes into, what do the men and women do on your team? For somebody who doesn't know what goes into winning a race like that? Can you, can you walk us through that specific race?

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah. So Indy, for whatever reason on this schedule, is a full weekend. And what I mean by that now. So ever since COVID came about, right, we took a lot of pride in being the first sport back. I remember we were heading to Atlanta to race the second race of the season. And that's when everything went downhill and we covet happened, right? So two months later, we get the, the call. I was like, all right, Wednesday, whatever the date was, racing in Darlington, no fans, no practice, no qualifying, going straight into the race. And we did that the rest of the season. No practice, no qualifying. Just show up and race.

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[Bubba Wallace]

And so once COVID protocols got lifted, we need some practice. You got to have qualifying. We got to bring that back. But it condensed the schedule. Pre Covid was you, you fly out Thursday, you practice on Friday, you qualify Saturday morning, you practice again. Saturday afternoon, you get three rounds of practice total, and then you go race on Sunday. Well, now from that point to going through Covid, learning how to condense the schedule now all but four, five races out of, out of 36, 38, we have 20 minutes of practice followed by qualifying immediately and then go into the race. So back to the Brickyard, for whatever reason, it has A full weekend. We go back to a 50 minute practice.

[Cal Penn]

Okay.

[Bubba Wallace]

On Friday. And then Saturday is just qualifying only. And then we go race. 50 minutes from 20 minutes is like a lot of time. It's like, oh, my God. And it's, and it's completely open. You can do whatever you want to the car. So anyways, Indy full weekend. We feel good about our car. Practice went really well. Qualifying, we qualified second. Super close. The race was just kind of another race. We were top five to 10 all day. And I remember our pit stop, the last one, and we came out behind the 22 car. And I was told throughout the pit cycle, like, hey, you're gonna shake out to be second here. And I'm like, oh, sweet. We were, I think we were running maybe fifth, fifth to seventh at that time.

[Cal Penn]

Okay.

[Bubba Wallace]

So we, we jumped some guys. And so I'm running, I'm, I'm chasing down the 22. I get within a couple car lengths from him and he has a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit the lead, right? So I'm like, cool, we got a long way to go. You know, I'm thinking We got 50, 60 laps left. Freddie, my spotter comes over and he's like, all right, new leader, you know, 20 laps to go. And I'm like, oh, shit. Oh, like we're getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop, you know, and so I'm like, oh, I actually got to wake up and try. Okay, so at that point, I think we had five second lead, something like that. Anyways, we're, we're going and Larson's coming and they're talking about rain. And I'm like, ah, you know, for people that don't know, my first win at Talladega in 20, 21 was rain shorten, and fans still love to continue. Count that as not official, but that's okay. The paycheck hit like it was official. My name's in the history books. Like, it's official. Anyways, so rain came with six to go, and it was just like, oh, go figure. At this point, we're already past the official distance, so if it continued to rain, they could call it, we would win again. And so part of me was like, oh, my God, if this happens again where the rain, the race gets shortened, people are going to lose their minds. But then the other side, I was like, you know what, I want it to stop raining. And it only rained for like five minutes. I want to go back and earn this thing the right way. And we Were able to do that. We had two green, white checkers back to back, and we were super close on fuel. Like, that was our biggest worry. I remember. I remember Charles, and once we got back, going after the red flag for rain, my crew chief, he was like, all right, we got enough fuel for one. We can do one. If another caution comes out, we need to come and pit. So we fire off the first one, and we get halfway down the back stretch, yellow comes out, and it's like, all right, there was our first one. So he was like, stay out. We're staying out. We're gambling here throughout this whole time, right? I'm like, man, it's too good not to happen. You know, all the stars are aligned. I was not freaking out over fuel. You know, I am. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Oh, well. So I was not wasting my time wondering if we had enough fuel. I was just gonna do the exact same thing I did the previous restart and get it again. Had enough fuel. Come to find out, we had enough fuel for maybe another lap and a half, so. So, yeah, it was. It was a damn good day.

[Cal Penn]

That's amazing. If you're listening to Here we Go Again, chances are you enjoy smart conversations, great stories, and maybe discovering something new along the way. That's exactly what we're doing on my other podcast, Irsay, The Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each episode, I'm diving into some of the most exciting new audiobooks on Audible. Everything from big sci fi adventures and unforgettable fiction to romcoms, thrillers, and laugh out loud comedy. And I'm joined by great guests to help unpack why these stories are such great listens. Because there's just something different about listening to a story. When it's really good, it pulls you in. You start seeing it in your head, and when it's over, you immediately want to talk about it with someone. That's what Irsay is all about. Listen to Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Cal Penn]

You kind of organically touched on something I was going to ask you about in two different ways. So since, since you've been in the sports, there have been changes to the rules. And for people who don't know, NASCAR isn't your, I guess I'd say traditional sports league in the sense that it's not like the NFL or Major League Baseball where teams collectively vote on major decisions. NASCAR was created by this guy, Bill France back in 1947, and to this day, the France family still owns it. Which means that the sport can change and it does change its rules much more quickly and maybe more often. Recently, NASCAR changed who qualified to compete in the championship races because they wanted to attract more fans. But one of the criticisms of that was that for some people it backfired. Right. Instead it created the system that was confusing to some people. It upset some of the fans. And then also they felt like, well, when they were going to watch a championship race, they weren't like watching the best drivers compete like they were previously. So all of which is to say, can you talk about what the biggest, mostly like what is the biggest rule difference today, but then also what are the biggest cultural differences today? So maybe both of those together, you know, compared to like maybe five or ten years ago.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah, I would say. I mean, the rules are always constantly changing. Right. You know, we'll be thrown a rules package change. We could be throwing that today to figure it out for this coming race in Phoenix. Right. They try to give us a heads up, but like for more safety reasons, they will implement a change if they see need fit. Right. You know, immediately. But you know, things evolve. So like the rules and stuff, you know, I think the biggest one coming out of last year to this year is probably like the way that the, the championship format is now. So for the last 10 years we've had a playoff system very similar to other sports. We'd have the last 10 races of the season, the championship contending field was set, right. You had your top 16 guys and those top 16 would go for race for 10 races. Every three races, four drivers would get eliminated. And then once you got to the last race, your final four was there, there was A lot of controversy with that because you had your. Your. Your playoff points, and then you had regular season points. So I was, you know, let's call it eighth in the playoff standings, but then regular season points, I was 12th. And so it got. It got confusing for a lot of people.

[Cal Penn]

Yep.

[Bubba Wallace]

So fast forward to this year and where we're at now. They've kind of revamped it and gone back to somewhat of an older format, the Chase, where again, it's the last 10 races, but the top 16 in points is your field. Sounds very similar, but you had guys that were 25th, 20th to 25th in points in prior years. They would win and get into the playoffs.

[Cal Penn]

Okay.

[Bubba Wallace]

Now doesn't matter how many wins you have, you have to be top 16 in points. There is no more win, and you're locked in.

[Cal Penn]

Okay.

[Bubba Wallace]

So it's a little bit easier to understand. And so that's probably the biggest rule change. And that's. That's very base level, you know, that I. That I touched on it there. And so a lot of people are on the fence about it, you know, and I get asked. It's been the hot topic since we are, you know, just starting our season off. They're like, you know, what do you think about it? I've always been on the quiet side because I look at it as I am hired to go out and raise 38 times out of the year, whatever format it may be. I have a job to do. Right. And I knew that going into it. So who am I to have an opinion on. Well, I don't think it's fair when a B or C driver wins and I don't like. No, they. They won. They beat me, and I got to be better. That was always my take on it.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah, that's. I feel like rule change grumbling is more popular with fans because. Because of, like. Like you. Let's say you're, you know, let's say you're a. You're a legacy fan family, and you've been, you know, coming races with your grandpa. You probably don't want things to change because it reminds you a little less of what it was like being 10 years old. Right?

[Bubba Wallace]

100%. Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

Like, as a NASCAR fan, I always feel like I'm explaining to other, like, blue state lefties who live in New York or L. A, and they're like, why do you like nascar? Isn't it all, you know, and then they fill in their stereotypes. And I spend a lot of time going, no. I mean, okay, some of the stereotypes are not untrue. But a lot of what you said is also not true. And I fight that battle a little bit, or at least I did until kind of, you know, 2020 and your role in being vocal about this stuff. And I had a lot more friends reach out to me and say, oh, okay, I see what you were talking about in terms of inclusion in the sport and why you've always felt inclusive, that it was inclusive when you've been to races, despite what it might look like. So I just think it's amazing that we're seeing this now. Right. Especially because NASCAR has a cultural lineage that I think it's fair to say it comes from the deep, segregated South. Some of its first races happened in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Virginia, and fans would bring the Confederate flag because many of the white fans back in the day saw it as an expression of. Of their regional identity, and some still do today. And even though NASCAR never officially adopted it, it did become, you know, a culturally acceptable thing for the flag to be there. I've certainly seen it myself. There's been this back and forth controversy about the presence of the Confederate flag for decades. But the point is, nobody really did anything about it until you, you know, there was no enforcement to ban the flag. You stood up in 2020 after the murder of George Floyd. You wore a Black Lives Matter shirt, had it painted on the side of your car.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yep.

[Cal Penn]

It was very inspiring to people like me to see this part of the campaign to end the waving of Confederate flags at races was with you. Can you walk me through that particular moment in time and at what point you really decided to take on that level of institutional change?

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah. So that was, you know, what a man. It's crazy that 2020 was already six

[Cal Penn]

years ago as well.

[Bubba Wallace]

It's Right. And we, all of us were at such a vulnerable place, you know, going through Covid, like, that was my first pandemic. Like, this is legit. Do not go out. Like, this is horror movie stuff. Right. You know, like 28 days later type stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah. And. And it's like, okay. And so then you see all this stuff going on, social injustice and all this, and it's just like, man, like, what's happening to the world we live in, the country we live in. And I. I felt a role because, you know, ever since I've been in this sport, I'm always asked, you know, the black driver this. The black driver that I just recently deleted in the last couple years, because it. It since 2020. The whole perception of Bubba Wallace changed. Right. You know, we'll call it glass half full, glass half empty. 50. 50. 50 people don't like me now. 50% support me. 100.

[Ad Voice 2]

Right.

[Bubba Wallace]

And it took me, you know, accept that, because prior to that, it was maybe 75 people like me or 80 people like me. And when I stood up for what I thought was right, and I still believe that it was right, no one's going to change my opinion on that. It just kind of true colors of. Of people kind of came about, you know, even close, you know, friends of mine, family, you know, they. They were just like, what. What's happening here? And it's just like, I'm human. That's what's happening. Right? And so, yeah, I felt a responsibility and going back ever since, you know, been thrown into the spotlight. It's the black driver this, black driver that. And I. What I was talking about deleting was a tweet that I had. I remember doing an interview. This was 2016, 2017, and the headlines said, black driver, blah, blah, blah, blah. And not in a derogatory way, but it just labeled me as a black driver. And all my 80 fans that like me were all that. All just like, why is it always the black driver? Like, he's just Bubba. And I'm like, I agree.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

So my. My tweet was, hey, guys, look, I'm the only one at the top level. That's basically what the media needs to write about to get their views. Like, you're not going to stop hearing in the black driver.

[Cal Penn]

Right.

[Bubba Wallace]

Like, I'm okay with it. You should be okay with it, too. Yes. I'm tired of hearing it. I hear you. I'm with you. But it's okay. And people loved it when 2020, all that stuff happened. See, look, Bubba is a racist himself. All he cares about is his skin color, and he labels himself as a black driver. And it's like, holy. That's not what I was saying.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

At all. This tweet was from at this time, three or four years ago, saying, like, hey, bear with us. It's going to be a long time before you stop hearing about it, you know, And. And it's okay. And so that happened. But. And. And it was okay. And I. I continued to see that it just caused more. More chaos and turmoil than it was, just like, trying to let people be at peace with it. So I removed it because I was tired of defending myself. And, yeah, I. I wore the Black Lives Matter shirt because I am biracial. A lot of people think that, you know, I only care about my black side, and I don't care about my white side. That couldn't be any further from the truth. I've gone through a lot of. In my life, you know, parents getting divorced. That was probably the hardest thing I've gone through. And I've always tried to remain middle of the road on all of that, and I've always tried to just be a good human. That's how I am with my race. Right. Like, yes, I am 50 and 50.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

And so you're not going to see me lean into one other side more so than other and. And disrespect one side more, you know, than another. Like, no. Like, I love who I am. I love my parents, and. But people don't realize that, you know, I do have a little bit more skin tone than, let's say, Ryan Blaney. You know, I didn't mean to pick probably the whitest dude in the garage, but it just so happened his mustache

[Cal Penn]

makes up for it.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, we are labeled first as a black driver. You know, media is not saying the biracial kid. They're not saying that. They're. They're.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

You know, and it's like, that would help maybe, but that's just. That's just how the world is.

[Cal Penn]

I mean, I don't even know if that. I feel like that context would. Would. If. If somebody is obsessed, is, like, obsessed with your identity, they're always going to be obsessed with your identity. The things that I found more impressive about the departure from that is, like, we live in a world where people don't really talk to each other anymore if they disagree about something. Like, I always say, like, I love. You know, I love getting, like, four beers with my very conservative friends and just talking, because nobody does that. I should not have seven beers with them, because that's when you start fighting. Yeah, but. But you. Like, I was. I think I. And a lot of people were very impressed that, like, you know, in a world where people don't talk to each other, you called for NASCAR to ban the Confederate flag. NASCAR agreed. Like, what were. What were those private conversations like?

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, that. That wasn't a private conversation. That was.

[Cal Penn]

Or business.

[Bubba Wallace]

That I did. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying, like, that wasn't. I just. If you don't know me and a lot of people that probably listen to your podcast don't know me, that I don't really hold back, you know, if, if, if I, if it's the right day and it's the right temperature outside and you ask me the right question, you're going to get an answer. And that just, you know, I, I seen a lot of tweets after the George Floyd stuff where I stood up for what I believed in. And on the African American side, the African American community was like, yeah, I don't know if I'll ever be a part of nascar because, you know, we ride by the racetracks and there's Confederate flags. You see it in all the videos. You know, they, they represent it. And that's something that, that hurts us. That's, that brings a lot of hurt and pain to our ancestors.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

And I'm like, you know, I've never paid attention to that. Go back to what we talked about earlier, the history.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

Never. Never looked at it. Yeah, there was hundreds of, of Confederate flags in the garage. I did not pay attention to it. You know, that's not me being politically correct. I didn't give a damn.

[Cal Penn]

No, I mean, that's fascinating for, for fans who maybe did know the history because NASCAR is founded by Bill France who supported Governor Wallace, who was pro Jim Crow. So if you don't, if you know the history of the sport, you've never been to a race and you're seeing Confederate flags when you drive by, I can definitely understand why they might be like Mr. Wallace, but what's the deal? Yeah, right.

[Bubba Wallace]

And so I was asked, you know, in an interview, and I was like, you know, I think a good move to, to continue to move the needle for our sport. We talk about how do we change the demographic. I've been asked that question for so many years and that seemed like low hanging fruit. It's like, hey, we have a whole demographic here that is eager to come out to a race. But a symbol, a flag is keeping them back. A symbol of hatred. And we're going to go, you know, to the end of time arguing that it's, it's heritage over hate. But you have to put yourself in everybody else's shoes. I have no problem doing that. But some people don't and they hang on to the heritage. And it's tough because, you know, you can't please everybody. But I thought that was a massive moment for us in our sport to officially get rid of it. And what's crazy is Dale Jr. Called for it years prior to, you know, man, that was not a big deal when he asked for it.

[Cal Penn]

If you're listening to here we go again. Chances are you enjoy smart conversations, great stories, and maybe discovering something new along the way. That's exactly what we're doing on my other podcast, Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each episode I'm diving into some of the most exciting new audiobooks on Audible. Everything from big sci fi adventures and unforgettable fiction to rom coms, thrillers and laugh out loud comedy. And I'm joined by great guests to help unpack why these stories are such great listens. Because there's just something different about listening to a story. When it's really good, it pulls you in, you start seeing it in your head, and when it's over, you immediately want to talk about it with someone. That's what Irsay is all about. Listen to Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Cal Penn]

I think you're right. I think the majority of people listening would not have had exposure to NASCAR before. And so even just hearing this would floor a lot of people. What do you mean? Even the heritage over hate, you know, conversation that they, they might not even be exposed to. Like I can say as a fan of the sport, even when the flag was there, it was very surreal. Because if you grew up outside of New York City, like to me the most racist place I've ever lived was Los Angeles. And part of that's probably because I was just one of the few people of color in the film industry 20 years ago.

[Bubba Wallace]

Right.

[Cal Penn]

But there hasn't been a more welcome place. Let me rephrase that. The top ten most welcome places. I would put a NASCAR track in that list.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

In terms of what it feels like. But then you the visual dichotomy of that is not at all that. Right. If I took a picture of this place that I feel welcome.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah. Yeah. It'd be like there's no way that you. Yeah.

[Cal Penn]

So I feel like you're, you're, you're right about. And I, you know, Dale obviously was right about. If these symbols are, are restricting people from, from. This is, it's, it's gotta go. One thing I want to ask you about is this lawsuit that you and your team just came out of with NASCAR. So back in 2024, your team, 2311 Racing, which is owned by Michael Jordan, Denny Hamlin and Curtis Polk and another team, Front Row Motorsports, filed an antitrust lawsuit against nascar which is of course owned by the original France family. And the lawsuit accused NASCAR of a couple of things. Maintaining a monopoly over premier stock car racing and abusing that power using a non transparent revenue sharing model that kept teams dependent and unprofitable. Retaliating against 2311 and front row Motorsports for refusing to sign an agreement between the teams and NASCAR called the new charter deal. Now, this lawsuit was a huge deal because it was the first serious challenge to the France family's control over nascar and it put them at risk of losing hundreds of millions of dollars. I texted you after the verdict or after the settlement because I knew. Yeah, I'm like, I know I can't text you in the middle being like, I hope you guys win. Like you. Because then you can't even like heart that text. You're like, not a lot. Right. But so for, for people who don't know. What can you tell us about that?

[Bubba Wallace]

Yeah. So it's funny now, like every time we were asked this throughout the season last year, our PR people were just like, don't say a word. You know, I rightfully so Good. Because whatever we could say could, you know, you know, damage our, our reputation and whatnot and hurt our chances in court. And so, man, it was so easy for me to not give a damn about it Again. Goes back to if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. If it doesn't, okay, I'll go find a new job. Okay. And so I don't know all of the details because again, I did not give a damn. Yes, it affected my livelihood. How can someone not give a damn if it affects. I don't. That's. That's how I am. I am programmed. It's weird. I'm. I'm a 1 of 1. I'm sorry, I don't know.

[Cal Penn]

I'm actually very Jealous of this trait that you have.

[Bubba Wallace]

But they. They being MJ and Curtis Polk and. And Denny Hamlin, they seen things that the sport continue to do that I would say that didn't allow growth. And they wanted change. They wanted change when they came into the sport and it was time for new charter agreements, and they seen an opportunity to create said change, and they were going to do whatever it takes to get that change. And if it meant suing the sanctioning body, then so be it. But they are going to stand up and put everything on the line for their people, our partners, and the other teams. Right. I mean, it's crazy to think that, you know, it was two of us. 2311 in front row motorsports were the only two teams to stand up to NASCAR. And the other teams were just like, hey, we don't want to be a part of this. We love where everything's at. And then when. When the settlement happened, they're like, oh, man, this is great. It's like, yeah, y' all didn't do. That's always how it is. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You know, thanks for the handout. And so going back to when the team started, you know, we wanted to be different. We wanted to bring in a change of culture. And, you know, you. You say those things. For me, I say those things. And, you know, I have some thoughts on, you know, you know what I think I have no idea what charter agreements are. I have no idea all that stuff that the business owners see. Right. And it makes me proud and brings me a lot of joy that I will risk anything to create change. You know, when I see it need fit and you have leadership and ownership that will do the same thing in a much higher magnitude. And it, you know, makes that relationship. I feel more solidified than anything. I remember being in Mexico in the off season, Amanda and I, and my give a damn meter ramped up a little bit because I wasn't racing. It was the off season, so all we had to pay attention to was the hearing, you know, So I was tuning in, and we were going through day four, day five, and I was on the golf course, and my spotter, Freddie, he had texted me like, well, looks like we got a job for the next couple years. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, they just settled. And I got chills as soon as I seen that text, and I didn't even know it was confirmed or not. I was so pumped for our leadership. Obviously, MJ is a massive fan of the sport. Denny, everybody knows Denny Curtis Polk, though, is, is, is MJ's right hand man. And just seeing the amount of satisfaction and joy that Curtis Polk had was just incredible to see. And it brought me a lot of joy. And you know, I text him that and he just says it's nice to feel vindicated. Right. You know, to, you know, to know that you risked everything for something positive and to see it come out on the right end is just a win for everybody. So I don't know all the details of, after the fact. Yeah, of, of what's exactly going to change, but I seen a interview with o', Donnell, the president of nascar, and he talked about MJ after, you know, winning Atlanta and he was like, you know, the tough conversations, you know, have to happen sometimes. Right. But the impact that MJ brings to our sport, you know, the things that our team is doing, you know, Tyler Redick is at this time, I know this will be aired later, but, you know, he's three for three to start the season. It's crazy, you know, the things that we are doing to bring in a new face officially to our sport. I couldn't be more proud of just being able to play a small part or as some people say, riding the coattails.

[Cal Penn]

More than riding the coattails.

[Bubba Wallace]

Literally driving the coattails.

[Cal Penn]

Exactly, exactly. Well, you got a, you got a lot of love for the team and obviously for, for, for you guys. And if you're listening to this, if you've never been to a race, highly recommend it. I'm a little biased here, but it'll be a great weekend. I, I, I very much recommend it. Wherever you are in the country, these guys have like the long. Aren't you the longest season of any sport. Yeah.

[Bubba Wallace]

Yes. Valentine's Day to the first weekend of November.

[Cal Penn]

That's crazy. Bubba Wallace, thank you for joining me, man. I appreciate it. Nice to see you.

[Bubba Wallace]

Absolutely. Nice to see you. Appreciate you guys.

[Cal Penn]

That was my guest, Bubba Wallace. He's a professional NASCAR driver and the winner. Winner of three races in the NASCAR cup series. Here we go again as a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media in association with New Metric Media. Our executive producers are me, Cal Penn, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Alyssa Martino, Andy Kim, Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly and Dylan Fagan. Megan Tan is our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is our producer and editor. Our consulting producer is Raman Borsalino. Tori Smith is our associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly. Logo by Matt Gossen. Legal review from Daniel Welch, Caroline Johnson and Megan Halson. Special thanks to Glenn Basner, Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, and Nikki Etor. Thanks for listening everybody. Tell your friends, write a review. All of this helps. I appreciate you listening and until we go again, I'm Kel Penn. If you love audiobooks or you just really love a great story, I want to tell you about my other podcast, Irsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks from Audible. Sci fi, comedy, romance, thrillers, you name it. No reading required, just listening. Cause let's be honest, having a great story read to you is kinda next level. Check out Earsay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Bubba Wallace]

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repairs, from sauce to dust to nuggets. It's Taco Bell's new Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets.

[Cal Penn]

Are they mild?

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If they were mild, they'd have to change the name to Little Rascal Nuggets

[Bubba Wallace]

or Minor Nuisance Nuggets.

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Definitely Diablo New Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets. A brand new classic only A Taco bell at participating U.S. taco Bell locations

[Bubba Wallace]

for a limited time and while supplies last. This is an iHeart podcast.

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Guaranteed Human.