A Biography of George Washington with Alexis Coe

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A Biography of George Washington with Alexis Coe"

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Here's Where It Gets Interesting, host Sharon McMahon engages in a deep and insightful conversation with renowned presidential historian Alexis Coe. The discussion centers around Coe's latest work, You Never Forget Your First, a fresh and nuanced biography of George Washington that challenges longstanding myths and presents a more complex portrayal of America's first president.

Re-examining George Washington's Biography

Sharon McMahon kicks off the conversation by highlighting the traditional approach to presidential biographies:

"Presidents are inherently interesting people, but they tend to be written by a certain type of author. Right? Like they tend to be written by men. They tend to be written by white men." ([03:33])

Alexis Coe elaborates on the lack of diversity in presidential historiography:

"There is no presidential historian of color, a dedicated president historian. And so the thing about presidents and studying them is I can't do it all, but I can get an idea of the conversation that's going on." ([04:07])

Challenging Traditional Narratives

Coe criticizes the repetitive and sanitized narratives often found in Washington biographies:

"Slavery is usually contained within a chapter, and we want a hero. And that struck me as off. And that is how I came to write a book on George Washington." ([05:18])

She emphasizes the need for historians to break out of established molds to present more authentic and varied perspectives.

Washington's Personal Life and Character

The conversation delves into Washington's personal relationships and character flaws, presenting him as a multidimensional figure:

"Washington loved spying. He was a spy master during the revolution. He got so into it." ([18:34])

Coe discusses Washington's complex personality, highlighting his passions and imperfections, such as his meticulous nature and sometimes impractical demands.

Myths and Misconceptions

A significant portion of the discussion debunks common myths about George Washington, offering factual corrections and deeper insights.

1. The Wooden Teeth Myth Coe addresses the legend of Washington's wooden dentures:

   "We have to say, you know, he was a bit of a poacher. Of course, they were all hunters. And then you also have to imagine the wiring that it goes into for the dentures is not good." ([20:22])

   She explains the reality behind Washington's dental issues and the materials used in his dentures, dispelling the notion that they were made entirely of wood.

2. The Cherry Tree Lie Coe challenges the famous cherry tree story:

   "The point is, it has something to do with wood. Let's just consider wood for a second." ([18:34])

   She argues that such myths were fabricated to create a more heroic and morally upright image of Washington.

3. No Wig Reality Addressing misconceptions about Washington's appearance:

   "No wig. No wig. Credit where credit's due. That is his hair." ([25:06])

   Coe clarifies that Washington did not wear a wig, and his distinct hairstyle was meticulously maintained by enslaved individuals.

Farewell Address and Its Modern Relevance

One of the most profound segments of the episode explores Washington's Farewell Address and its eerie parallels to contemporary politics:

"If we didn't, then we would fall into decay... The corrupt men decay. That's why we had to rebel in the first place." ([45:08])

Coe explains how Washington warned against factionalism and the dangers of partisan politics, observations that resonate strongly in today's socio-political climate. She notes:

"The Farewell Address would smack up modernity and would feel like he had transported himself to the future." ([39:09])

Washington's cautions about the misuse of power and the influence of foreign interests on American politics are discussed in the context of recent events, highlighting the prophetic nature of his words.

Alexis Coe's Perspective on Judging Historical Figures

Coe addresses the ethical dilemma of how modern society should evaluate historical figures who, despite their contributions, engaged in morally reprehensible actions such as slavery:

"The word judge I think is a part of the issue because it sounds like we've got a gavel and we're ruling on this." ([34:34])

She advocates for a balanced understanding that recognizes both the accomplishments and the flaws of historical figures:

"I think what we need to do is we need to understand we're not really here to judge. And for me, it's a professional relationship." ([36:18])

Coe emphasizes the importance of viewing these figures as complex humans rather than one-dimensional heroes or villains.

Humanizing Historical Figures

Sharon McMahon underscores the significance of Coe's approach in humanizing Washington:

"There was no concept of, like how to be the president. He was making it up." ([46:11])

By presenting Washington's vulnerabilities and learning processes, Coe's biography provides a relatable and authentic portrayal, encouraging readers to see past the myths and appreciate the real person behind the legend.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Sharon McMahon praising Coe's work for its engaging and accessible narrative:

"Your book never forget your first is first of all, it's entertaining to read. It is not one of those 1,000 page biographies where it recounts every boring quote in old language. It is compact, it is like just over 200 pages. It is witty." ([47:15])

Alexis Coe expresses gratitude and reiterates the importance of her work in reshaping the understanding of George Washington:

"Thank you so much." ([47:53])

Key Takeaways:

• Alexis Coe's biography of George Washington offers a fresh, nuanced perspective that challenges traditional, often sanitized narratives.
• The podcast delves into debunking myths surrounding Washington, presenting factual insights into his personal life and character.
• Washington's Farewell Address is examined for its prophetic warnings against factionalism and the misuse of power, drawing parallels to contemporary politics.
• Coe advocates for a balanced evaluation of historical figures, recognizing their contributions while acknowledging their flaws, thereby humanizing them and offering a more comprehensive understanding of their legacies.

Notable Quotes:

• "Slavery is usually contained within a chapter, and we want a hero. And that struck me as off." – Alexis Coe ([05:18])
• "The word judge I think is a part of the issue because it sounds like we've got a gavel and we're ruling on this." – Alexis Coe ([34:34])
• "Your book never forget your first is first of all, it's entertaining to read." – Sharon McMahon ([47:15])

Final Thoughts

This episode of Here's Where It Gets Interesting serves as a profound exploration of historical interpretation, urging listeners to look beyond glorified legends and engage with history in a more critical and empathetic manner. Alexis Coe's work not only enriches our understanding of George Washington but also invites a broader conversation about the complexities of historical narratives and their relevance to present-day societal issues.

Transcript

[Renee Haas]

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[Sharon McMahon]

I am really excited to be chatting today with Alexis Koh. This is actually a meeting that I have been meaning to have for a very long time. Ever since your book was first released. You never forget your first. Thanks for being here.

[Alexis Coe]

Thank you for having me.

[Sharon McMahon]

We were talking before we got started today about presidential biographies. They're interesting. Presidents are inherently interesting people, but they tend to be written by a certain type of author. Right? Like they tend to be written by men. They tend to be written by white men. They tend to be written by men of a certain age and education level. And not that there's anything wrong with that perspective, but I really enjoyed hearing a fresh and different take on a presidential biography. Why did you pick George Washington?

[Alexis Coe]

Thank you. Well, I think you hit on a really important point. And since so many history lovers listen to your podcast, they do want to make a really important point, which is that much was made about me being the first woman to write a biography on Washington in four decades, and then the first woman historian in I don't even know how long. It's at least 100 years. There is no presidential historian of color, a dedicated president historian. And so the thing about presidents and studying them is I can't do it all, but I can get an idea of the conversation that's going on. Because if you think about history, you think about American history and, let's say, lucid Brazilian studies or French history, you know, and then within presidential history, each president has its own little cottage industry. And in order to get to a president I might not spend a lot of time with, I usually read four to five biographies. And I can know what's going on because they mention each other. You get the tension. You understand where they disagree. And that works. Except in one occasion, and that was for George Washington. It absolutely did not work. I used to joke that the presidential scholars who write about Washington almost like they had to show up to take an oath and someone just forgot to call me. You take the oath and you say, I'm going to write a book on George Washington, and I promise to proceed in the exact same way as everyone who came before me. And that includes saying I'm going to break him out of his mold and he's too Marvel to be real. And then they all proceed in almost the exact same manner. They use the same quotes. The structure is almost identical, give or take a few hundred pages. There's absolutely nothing new. Slavery is usually contained within a chapter, and we want a hero. And that struck me as off. I didn't see an evolution. And then I started checking some of the quotes and the stories that some of them told, and they were just not true. Or there was just the quote that they all use is actually the least interesting quote of all. Or it's just completely, completely misrepresented. And so I felt like this is the problem with being a public historian and an independent historian. If I get this sort of bee in my bonnet and I don't go after it, I feel like I'm complicit. I am a part of the problem. And that is how I came to write a book on George Washington.

[Sharon McMahon]

He wanted to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

[Alexis Coe]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Was he always one of your favorite presidents? Was he. Has he been one of those figures for you for many decades where you're like, you know, I'm just fascinated by Washington, or are you surprised by your interest in him?

[Alexis Coe]

Well, absolutely surprised. I grew up in California, and we study a very different history there. But what is absent from our school trips are presidential libraries and historic sites. We, of course, have Richard Nixon, but no one's really trying to induct that into the California school, at least not when I was there. I did not even visit Mount Vernon until I was in graduate school. It was almost amusing to me how reverent people were and how much nostalgia and lore was invested in, particularly the historic homes, less the presidential libraries, because, of course, I love them all. But the homes themselves were odd to me. And I did visit Mount Vernon when I was in grad school, and I thought it was really interesting and provocative. But I would not say, you know, I did not leave thinking, oh, yes, this is what I'm going to do.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, what was the moment for you? Can you pinpoint it? The moment where you're like, I have to write a book about George Washington.

[Alexis Coe]

Yeah. Just as you just said it. I remember just putting my forehead in my palm and thinking, how am I going to. How am I going to sell my agent on this? Gonna drop me? It was a Mary Washington quote. It was a Mary Washington quote that was used by Ron Chernow. Quote was representative of the situation that he was describing that was in a letter. And everyone had given Mary Washington a really hard time. Washington's mother. And early on I thought that was really odd because what they didn't describe him as, which we described both Barack Obama and sometimes Gerald Ford as people raised by single mothers. So I thought it was weird that she was being sidelined in this way. And then I kept looking at her and she was really interesting. But there's a scene that turnout describes in Washington where he is, you know, Mary Washington comes to visit and she comes in like, you know, a bat out of hell. And, you know, he uses those words and that she. She takes him to task for all these things and demands to know his plans and are so angry at him. And that is not at all how Washington describes it. And I went straight to the archives because I said, oh, my goodness, did Ron Chernow somehow get access to some letter that no one else, no other historian. Historian, has seen? My God, what privileged. He runs in certain circles. Maybe narcos is handing him something. No, it's the same letter that's referenced by everyone and simply says, you know, his mother stopped with other names are listed in there. And, you know, he's delayed. Washington is delayed getting to the headquarters because he's supposed to meet with Governor Dinwiddie, the last royal governor. And so he uses this visit as an excuse, but he's not saying anything to suggest that she's bad outta hell and she's like coming to ruin his day and ruin his trip and ruin his life. And so I just thought, all right, what else is going on here? And of course, once you start poking.

[Sharon McMahon]

Take one step into the rabbit hole, you don't know how far down you.

[Alexis Coe]

Will tumble, and you just have to stop at one point. That's the unfortunate part. I have documents that are like 40, 50 pages, no narrative, just pointing out faults and misnomers that had just been perpetuated over time.

[Sharon McMahon]

And I want to. I definitely want to talk about that in one second. I just wanted to point out something that you said that I thought was very interesting, that different biographers, different historians interpret the same set of words in wildly disparate ways. And what your perception as a woman, your perception as a younger woman about Mary Washington's words was perhaps quite different than historians prior to you. When they read those same words, they felt that they meant something different.

[Alexis Coe]

Right. Or you just. I mean, it's unfortunate. I don't think there was much thinking going on. Women are treated like accessories or eyewitnesses, and that is their only real use. They're either helping a man or they're Thwarting him. They're like these caricatures. And so what is really vexing to me, not just about women, but about people of color, about anyone who is not a famous person we can name. There's not a lot of interest. There's simply a lack of curiosity about these people. Mary Washington, even Martha Washington, who's painted as a saint, when she's really not. There is this need to place women and enslaved people in these categories. And I really felt as though it was a matter of being curious about the world. And in a way that I just don't think that these biographers who came before me are. And when I say the world, I mean the greater world, not just the man and immediate power. And so I think it's a blend of an attraction to power and a sort of unhealthy relationship with nostalgia.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, I mean, I do think some of it is probably wanting to romanticize the past. Like you're saying, an unhealthy relationship with nostalgia. That. Like this idea that things used to be better things. People used to be heroic people used to fight valiantly in battle. They used to sail across the Delaware. People used to be different and better than we are today. And I think that's probably a dangerous assumption.

[Alexis Coe]

Do you agree, having read their diaries? Yes. They are not. They're not better. They are better at certain things, as we all are. I'm not culpable for the actions of George Washington, but I am responsible for understanding them. And if I'm going to claim to be an American who is interested in our country's history, and I do think that the act of being a historian and being interested in American history in general is a very patriotic one, Then you have to look at these people. Quite honestly, I don't know any other way to do it. I don't know what the point would be.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, we don't do ourselves any favors by not being honest about who somebody was and what they accomplished and where their faults were. Right. Like, we. We are not made better by just holding up a figure from the past on a pedestal and glorifying them like a deity. That actually does not benefit us in the long run. We don't learn from any of the mistakes that they made. We're not looking at history with open eyes. And it's those kinds of viewpoints that lead people, I think, to overly romanticize the past, in which chances are quite good they would have had few rights and would have died from a very painful illness. We have to talk about some of the enduring myths about George Washington. And he is in many ways a mythical figure. And a lot of people know about things like, you know, I cannot tell a lie, I chopped down the cherry tree, he had wooden teeth. There's a huge variety of myths as you mentioned. You have like a massive document just of like things that are not true about George Washington that people commonly believe.

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[Sharon McMahon]

So, Bert, can we start first of all with the teeth? Because you do talk about the teeth situation in your book. So first of all, why are Americans obsessed with George Washington's teeth? And then secondly, give us, like, the real. The real tea on his teeth.

[Alexis Coe]

Yes. Well, they're sort of all connected. I'll get the positive myth that I'm going to dispel, and then the less positive to say that George Washington never told a lie. I'm surprised that that is not what he's turning in his grave about, because he loved spying. He was a spine master during the revolution. He loved spying, and he got so into it. And some of the moments in which you see him reveal himself, it's either when he's angry or excited. And very rarely does he get excited about something other people are excited about. You know, he's very into making tools for his farm. And I do, however, I'm with him with mules. His passion for mules was great. But so I feel like by saying he never told a lie, you are really denying him this important part of his story as general. And then that leads into other stories about how we win the revolution, how he set us up for success because we set off this age of revolutions, and yet we were so stable. How. Read the book. It's in there. It's in that section on the revolution. But going back to the teeth, now, this is sort of related because. Okay, tell a lie. This goes back to the cherry tree story, right? That Washington cut down a cherry tree. And then his dad said, why, you know, did you do that? He said, no. And then I cannot tell a lie. I did. I don't Know if he cut down a cherry tree, he cut down trees. But honestly, he. He enslaved, you know, as many people as his age. When his father died, his first title was master. And so he probably ordered someone to cut down a tree, even at that age. But the point is, it has something to do with wood. Let's just consider wood for a second. What happens when you put wood in water? It doesn't work.

[Sharon McMahon]

Splinters?

[Alexis Coe]

No, it doesn't work. It's not a good material for that. So it doesn't belong in your mouth. And also, it would really mess up the inside of your mouth while you were, I don't know, breaking them in the denture. But this points to something we don't want to know. And we're so committed to not knowing that we have invented this insane story that his dentures were full of wooden teeth. It is true that by the time Washington was inaugurated, he only had one tooth left.

[Sharon McMahon]

Was there something about Washington in particular that made his teeth bad for any reason that we know of? Like, why did he have only one left?

[Alexis Coe]

I mean, possibly. Martha lectures their grandchildren and nieces and nephews about oral hygiene. I think, as a result, it's definitely a fixation for all of them. I think part of it was oral hygiene. When he was in the wilds of the Ohio as a young man, you know, fighting on behalf of the British against the French, some of it, his dentist accused him of drinking too much port, which shows that they were not close because his drink was Madeira. But I don't think he drank that much. There's one letter from Lafayette, which he. They got drunk at Mount Vernon, but that was when Lafayette was visiting after the war, and they were, you know, feeling very warm and tender towards each other. Otherwise, he didn't drink a ton, though he did like a nice Madeira. I think it was just bad teens, bad hygiene, bad luck. But, you know, dentures were not uncommon among the elite. But what filled them was, you know, walruses and other sorts of ivories, you know, tusks of elephants. So we have to say, you know, he was a bit of a poacher. Of course, they were all hunters. And then you also have to imagine the wiring that it goes into for the dentures is not good. So if you look at portraits of Washington, there aren't that many. You can see his smile, if you want to call it that, his sort of straight, lined mouth and his jaw. It changes over time, and that's because he's wearing different sets of dentures. But here's where it gets bad. And this is why I led with the spying. It was not uncommon in early America. And I know this from an ad that Washington's dentist took out to solicit the teeth of enslaved people to be put in the mouths of elite white people in their dentures. Washington did that. He also would hang on to teeth that had fallen out, not really understanding that they fell out for a reason. And he would try to have his dentist put those in as well, in addition to the ivory. But he did then realize that he could turn to his own enslaved community because between him and Martha, there were, you know, at times, 400 enslaved people at Mount Vernon and simply pay them. And he paid them under market value. And so when we think about his teeth, you know, not only were they wooden, but they sort of. I mean, they're emblematic of America in a lot of ways and certainly of the founding era.

[Sharon McMahon]

So he would go to his own enslaved people and say, I'll give you X amount of dollars if you let me take that tooth out of your mout. Is that what you're saying?

[Alexis Coe]

I don't know how he procured the teeth. We don't know. I hope he wasn't going and pulling them. But I think what. What, you know, it would probably be the overseer, slash doctor, and somehow the teeth would come to him. And the thing about Washington that I'm very thankful of, because he cared about his every cent. Every cent. And so his financial records, his ledgers, are really revealing once you understand how to read them and the language and what his intentions were. And so this is written down just as any other transaction. He finds a better deal. He always finds a better deal.

[Sharon McMahon]

How would he procure the ivory? I mean, it's not like we have walruses and elephants in Tidewater, Virginia.

[Alexis Coe]

Like, all of his things came from abroad. He bought a special suit for the inauguration. It was homespun and brown, but his shoes were fancy. They had diamonds because he was all flash. You know, he really liked sumptuous fabrics. And he married. Well, he married rich, and he ordered up. So he got to order from the most expensive, exclusive London purveyors. And that's where he would get sort of everything. And I think also the dentist would procure, you know, things as well. But everything was on stage, special ordered, as we would call it today.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, can you give us a couple of other commonly believed things about Washington that are just not true?

[Alexis Coe]

This comes up a lot just because it's something that people will say quickly in a Sentence. When they're talking to me and they're interviewing me, or they're just talking about Washington, and they'll say, you know, the wig and the. And the thing. No wig. No wig. Credit where credit's due. That is his hair. And not only that, he was a bit of a ginger when he was younger. He had reddish hair, which is, like, very shocking to people. So is Jefferson. But that was an elaborate hairstyle that that man had another man do all the time. So an enslaved person would work on that with, you know, curlers, and then they would put it in a little cue, like a cute little jacket. I always call it like a sleeping bag. And that was all him. That was all his hair. That was not awake.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's fascinating. That seems like a lot of work to maintain that hairstyle.

[Alexis Coe]

Except, you know, they didn't wash very much.

[Sharon McMahon]

So they're not.

[Alexis Coe]

Not as much work as we would hope. But just. But just enough. We talk about him as the father of our country. George Washington, Martha Washington. We imagine her in the bonnets. I always. Don't get fooled by the bonnet. I always say that. Don't get fooled by the bonnet. But Washington had no biological children, and this was not a big deal in early America. And for a long time in America, if you met a woman who had young children, you thought it was great because you could raise them, you know, two, three years old. If they lost their father, you could just sort of swoop in and be their father, and you just wanted an heir. There was paternity. It wasn't really knowable, and people just didn't care as much at that level. And the other thing is, it almost guaranteed that the woman you were marrying could have more children. And when Washington saw Martha, I think that's what he saw. And he loved her children and raised them as his own. And then their grandchildren, he raised as well. And he raised nieces and nephews and other people's children. I mean, this man was fathering all the time, but he was not actually a father. And when I talk about fathering all the time, I mean, let's take his stepson and his step grandson. Washington was constantly communicating with their schools, their teachers, their principals, whoever, and basically say, don't tell Martha, but I'd like him to be inoculated or lecturing these boys about things like losing umbrellas. Like, that's the level of almost helicopter parenting he was doing. And he was doing it because he loved them. He's also doing it because he was so excited. He was the Eldest son from the second family, and his father died young. He didn't get any of the rights and privileges that his two half brothers got, and they got them. They got to go to London for schooling. You know, things that really made a big difference in early America between your. Your general potential, the opportunity structure that you were presented with as a colonist. And so he thought, oh, my God, I can give them everything. They can go to best schools. They will never want for anything. They will come out in society and everyone will want to marry them. Because Washington at 15, 16, 17, he's basically. He's almost shameless. You know, he will write to any man who's rich, who has, like, a young, eligible daughter, and try to talk his way in. It doesn't often work out. He even is like, I'm sick, but I want to try again. Are you sure she's not interested? Like, are you sure? And it's not until his heroics and, you know, he has to meet Martha. She's the only one who sort of set up for this. So I think those are things that I find really, really interesting about Washington as well, and that we, again, we think of all these founders as being so well educated, he had to drop out of school when he was 14. They will all, at some point, give him a lot of backhanded compliments about his deficient education, as he called it. And something I also really love about Washington is that he was an autodidact to a certain extent, and he loved to research, but he would pick up books about how to do things. So when he was made the general of the Continental army, he had really just led the Virginia militia like, a over a decade earlier. And so he had no experience with a major army against, like, the greatest superpower in the known world. And so he, as he's rolling out of Philadelphia, he stops by a bookstore and he picks up books about basically, like how to general, you know, how to win wars. And so I, yeah, I think that those things are really interesting about Washington and sort of, they fall into the myth area.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, that is so interesting. I love that fact about him that he was like, and okay, I will be the general, but first I need to find out how to be a general.

[Alexis Coe]

Reading and writing.

[Sharon McMahon]

I will read the books on the way and I will figure it out.

[Alexis Coe]

I'll be ready by the time I get to Boston. I swear, the big thing that Washington had that the other men who showed up in Philadelphia did not have, besides, like, a little bit of experience. There are people there who had more experience than him, but they tried to cut deals with the Continental Congress. They tried to say things like, all right, what if I lead your army, but if we lose, you pay me a bunch of money. But Washington was like, all right, let's do this. I don't have a choice anymore. And it's not because he was reckless. He was anything but. He was anything but. Washington's biggest complaint about the Boston Tea Party. He thought that their reasoning was correct and sound, but he really disliked that they destroyed property, which of course was the whole point. Make that point without dumping all the Tina and it's one of our best stories. He would have denied us that because it wasn't profitable. It wasn't a good idea for entrepreneurs, for capitalists.

[Sharon McMahon]

Right. I mean, the Patriots were like, we already tried writing letters. Yes. What letters do we have?

[Alexis Coe]

And you've been there, except you don't pick up arms, hopefully. But he writes about how there's a quote in which he's, you know, I'm done writing polite letters.

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[Renee Haas]

Y'All all the time about how you just don't know who to believe. You don't know who to trust anymore. It is easy to just get stuck in your little echo chambers. And in this era of the erosion of public trust in traditional journalism, the trend towards partisan media, and all of the sensational and the economic pressures of news organizations, it is more important than ever to use sites like Ground News. You can see how some of the top stories of the day, like how the United States leaked its war plans on the Signal app to a journalist. You can see how sources on the left are spinning it. The Atlantic is disputing the Trump claim that the messages didn't contain classified information. And on the right, they are criticizing the journalist's decision to release the information. Same event, two completely different takes. It also breaks down bias, distribution, rating sources from across the political spectrum. So I can see if a story is being covered more heavily by one side. Ground News can help you find common ground between perspectives. You can see stories, stories in the context of the larger media world. So go to Ground News Sharon to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan which will unlock access to all of their news analysis features. I think that Ground News is doing important work and I hope you will check them out. That's Ground News Sharon. Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. Making financial decisions shouldn't feel like trying to pick a place to eat with friends. Too many choices, too much number crunching, and everyone has a different opinion on what's worth it. One person says invest in crypto, another says go all in on real estate. Meanwhile, you're just trying to figure out if your credit card's annual fee will ever pay off. That's where the nerds come in. Nerd Wallet's finance journalists do their research so you don't have to breaking down the fine print, cutting through misinformation and giving you real fact based insight so you can make smart financial moves without the group chat chaos. NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast has helped me get smarter about when refinancing actually saves you money and when it doesn't, and how to use tax advantaged accounts to save money just beyond your 401k. I've also been interested in the smartest way to use home equity without over leveraging yourself, and the nerds have provided really valuable insight. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast on your favorite podcast app.

[Sharon McMahon]

Should modern Americans judge figures from the past who do things like enslave other human beings, things that violate our collective conscience? How should we treat or judge figures? I think that's constantly a source of debate and you know, it's difficult to parse out. How do we judge people like George Washington who enslaved many hundreds of people?

[Alexis Coe]

The word judge I think is a part of the issue because it sounds like we've got a gavel and we're ruling on this. I don't think we should judge them. You know, some a place like Mount Vernon who profits off the life of George Washington said really explicitly, we are here to celebrate the life of George Washington. We are here to learn about George Washington. This is not a choice. Actually, he's in our textbooks. We have to. If we're judging him, we're also celebrating him. So my, my issue with both of these perspectives is that they're mutually exclusive. And so I don't think I've come up with a potent word to offer you in exchange for that one. But I think what we need to do is we need to understand we're not really here to judge. And for me, it's a professional relationship. Are there moments where I go, oh, yes, of course. All the time. At one point, Washington is. You know, I mentioned having an enslaved person cut down a tree. It's because when he's older, he. He has an older enslaved man named Tom. Move a log, and he, you know, can't do it on his own. Logs are huge and heavy, and Washington slaps him himself. And of course, at that moment, I thought, like, Washington, like one. You're enslaving this man. Yes, but there. There are 90 things to think about because he's a human on this date. Both of them are humans. And Washington is not treating him on a human on every single level. And I'd have to think of all the levels. Like, I can't just think. I think, yes, he's enslaved. This is true. He's also expecting herculean efforts by this man, something that Washington would have never been able to do on his own at any point in his life. Why is he so demanding and impractical with a lot of things? And what is going on with him that day? I also think it's. I don't think of it as good or bad. I think of it as instructive. If you want him to be your role model, if you want him to be your example of the worst person who was ever a president, that is a personal choice, and you are very welcome to. But that is not why we know his name. We know his name because he is the most historically significant person in our country.

[Sharon McMahon]

I want to get to Washington's farewell address and many of his words in that farewell address. First of all, as you mentioned, he voluntarily gives up power. And people were like, you can do that. Like, why? Why would you do that? That's a thing people can do.

[Alexis Coe]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Voluntarily give up power. So that, of course, as you mentioned, was precedent setting, and it set up peaceful transfer of power, which is an incredibly important aspect of democracy, not just in the United States, but around the world. The outgoing person assists the incoming person. And we don't have a bloody revolution or a violent overthrow or one political rival killing their opponent in order to seize power. It was a very, very revolutionary idea. And he gives this very eloquent address to Americans as he's leaving power. And one of the things he does is caution people about excess factionalism and cautions them about evil. Men will usurp the reins of power for themselves, and they will take it away from the people where it belongs. And it's in many ways, when you read his words today, you're like, it is almost prophetic about what he was trying to caution people against, because we are there. We are literally there. And we've been there probably for a little while, but we are. It is glaringly obvious that we have achieved everything that Washington did not want for America. And I would love to hear more about your perspective on his Farewell Address and about factionalism in that time period.

[Alexis Coe]

It was an explicit warning, if you were to have told me, and I don't know, 2017, 2018, 2019, all these years that I was working on it, that the Farewell Address would smack up modernity and would feel like he had transported himself to the future. I would not have taken that bet. I would not have taken that bed. And yet it was just ringing in my ears for a while. Partisanship has always been bad, but it was terrifying to watch it happen. And Washington in some ways, was responsible for it. He's the only president who didn't declare a political party. And as a result, he sort of forced it on people and they did it. Oh, and he hated to be criticized. And you know what's funny is that is an edited version. Alexander Hamilton edited it down because he thought that Washington's version wouldn't age well because he was so angry. And if you. That is not the dynamic you imagine between Washington and Hamilton. If anyone who's seen Hamilton knows Washington is the one who can keep us cool. Hamilton is the one who's saying, you know, everything he feels and thinks without any filter. Washington, you know, he, he, he was estranged. He was frenemies with everyone. He publishes this carefully written farewell address in all the newspapers and then goes about his business. He still has to work for quite a long time. He says, you know, be careful, because men who are only interested in power are not going to represent their regions well. They're only going to represent the people who vote for them. They're going to work actively against the interests of other people. And they will absolutely be exposed and vulnerable to foreign interests, because foreign interests will come in with money and they'll buy their way in. And then America is pretty much over. Because, of course, these were all the complaints about Parliament when he says, okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

This is direct quote from his farewell address. However political parties may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and usurp for themselves the reins of government. And I've always been curious, was he talking about anybody in particular?

[Alexis Coe]

Sure, he was talking about Jefferson, all those guys. And Jefferson, famously a Francophile. The French Revolution was happening. The ambassador came over and tried to get an audience with Washington. Kept trying to drag us into the war. He definitely was talking about the men he knew, the men he came up in, as we would say.

[Sharon McMahon]

He viewed people like Jefferson as cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled is what you're saying.

[Alexis Coe]

He thought he was a liar. Jefferson, with Madison and Monroe, to a certain extent, were authoring essays under pseudonyms. And the pseudonyms were like, my favorite. My favorite is Porcupine. He was indeed very prickly. And they would write these essays, and Washington, of course, knew who was writing them. And Hamilton was, you know, word for word, obsessively arguing the case. But by the end, it was just completely clear that it was Jefferson and Washington believe. He says, you know, I believe you. I believe you. And then he finally says, I don't believe you. And they never spoke again. They never spoke again. And so he absolutely was worried immediately what happened when the government actually started. When we won the war, Washington gives up power for the first time, and everyone thinks, oh, my God, this is the greatest man in the world. His first retirement, and he goes home to Mount Vernon, and the north and the south are already fighting about who's going to pay all these war debts. And this, the south says, well, we don't owe any money. And of course we know why they don't owe any money. And, you know, it goes on and on and on. So everyone's already fighting, and he's already like, oh, my God, we're going to lose this. So I fought for eight years. I risked everything, and he suffered for it and gained quite a lot. And so he's worried they were going to ruin it from the very beginning. And it just took a while to see. We are so vulnerable and we don't realize it. And we got a little glimpse of it. We're dancing around it, but we got a little glimpse on January 6th. And imagine being George Washington fighting for, you know, 8ish years and coming out of retirement again, your wife being totally unhappy with you that you have to spend eight more years out of Virginia, you lose all your children, you are known as the greatest man in the world, and then you're hated by half of your country. You have everything to lose. And at the same time, all these other revolutions that we set off. There's so much bloodshed, guillotines galore. In France, we didn't have that. And so he was always managing, managing, managing. And that he did learn, we have to say, as an enslaver. He's managing his plantation, his forced labor camp. He's making sure there are no rebellions. He's maximizing labor. He's making sure that he's profiting off everything. And so I think that's what's going on is he's managing this country. And so he sees the weaknesses and he sees the peril and the greatest danger. Were his best friends, the other men lauded for this heroic, incredible feat.

[Sharon McMahon]

What would you love for people listening to this, the average American to know about George Washington.

[Alexis Coe]

You know, the founders, they expected us to change quite a bit all the time. And if we didn't, then we would fall into decay. This is again from the farewell address. The corrupt men decay. That's why we had to rebel in the first place, as the British called it. We called it a revolution. And so I think he would be surprised we haven't had another. They knew slavery was going to end. They knew they were on borrowed time. They would have been surprised at the role that women played. They would have been surprised at, you know, purportedly equal citizenship and things like that. But I think he would have been most disappointed and shocked by how little we progressed and how much we put on them, on the Founders, how much faith and how we have. I mean, he would want to be remembered. Certainly. He knew his legacy would matter. He wanted to be at the center of his. His country story. I always say it just didn't really matter which country it was at first. But he would be also disappointed in that country.

[Sharon McMahon]

It is always very, I think, instructive and important to humanize characters from the past and to know that Washington had to buy books on how to be a general and he was not well educated and so consequently did not know how to be president. There was. There's no President of America 101 Book to Buy, like you could buy a book for generals. There was no concept of, like how to be the president. He was making it up. He made it up. And as many things as he got right, as many things as the founders got right, as many. As much foresight as they had, as much wisdom and intelligence as they had, I think it behooves us to remember that they literally invented exists because they invented it, and we have the power to do the same. Things can change because we invent the change that could become so important to future historians.

[Alexis Coe]

Absolutely.

[Sharon McMahon]

I love that.

[Alexis Coe]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you so much for being here today. One of the things I think people will enjoy about your book, you never forget your first is first of all, it's entertaining to read. It is not one of those 1,000 page biographies where it recounts every boring quote in old language. It is compact, it is like just over 200 pages. It is witty. It really creates a different portrait of Washington and it humanizes him in ways that many biographies have not been able to achieve. So congrats on your incredible amount of research and work and I think a lot of people people will enjoy reading your book.

[Alexis Coe]

Thank you so much.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thanks so much for listening. You can check out you never forget your first. It's a New York Times bestseller. It is written by presidential historian Alexis Ko.

[Renee Haas]

Thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting if you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps part podcasters out so much. I'm your host and executive producer Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.

[Alexis Coe]

I've been counted out, dismissed, passed over.

[Jake Brennan]

Told I'd never be a golfer with just one arm. But the only thing that feels better.

[Alexis Coe]

Than proving people wrong is out driving them.

[Jake Brennan]

I'm 14 year old golfer Tommy Morrison.

[Alexis Coe]

And I want to be remembered for.

[Jake Brennan]

My ability as a champion partner of the Masters. Bank of America supports everyone determined to find out what's possible in golf and in life. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America bank of America NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation all rights reserved.