Sharon McMahon (2:17)

Hello friends. Welcome. Delighted you can join me today. My guest is HW Brands and he is a Pulitzer finalist historian and I have a really interesting discussion for you about Charles Lindbergh and FDR. His book is called America Roosevelt vs Lindbergh in the Shadow of War and you can see so many of the arguments that people were having in the 1930s. We are still having them today. History is alive. So. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting.

Sharon McMahon (2:56)

I am really excited to be chatting with HW Brands. Thank you for being here.

HW Brands (3:02)

My pleasure.

Sharon McMahon (3:03)

You've written a number of books, sir. This is not your first rodeo. I'm curious about how you arrived at the topic of America first. What about this was especially salient in your mind? What about this was like? This is a project I need to work on, and I need to work on it now.

HW Brands (3:20)

I wrote a book about Franklin Roosevelt 15 years ago, and I was certainly aware of the debate that went on in the United States over whether the.

HW Brands (3:30)

United States should enter the war that.

HW Brands (3:31)

Broke out in Europe in 1939. And it was a debate that lasted.

HW Brands (3:35)

Two years and a few months until Pearl Harbor. For 150 years, the United States has steered clear of European affairs with the important exception of World War I, which by 1939, most Americans alive at the time deeply regretted.

HW Brands (3:49)

They deeply regretted going into World War I. They thought it was a mistake, and.

HW Brands (3:52)

They were determined not to repeat that mistake.

HW Brands (3:55)

But then two years later, they go back into Europe.

HW Brands (3:59)

But it took a lot of debating.

HW Brands (4:01)

It took a lot of politicking. And I wanted to examine that debate more closely. In particular, I wanted to do justice.

HW Brands (4:09)

To the other side of the debate. Roosevelt was the arch interventionist. He believed that the United States needed.

HW Brands (4:15)

To get involved in the European war. This for the good of Europe, for the good of the United States, for the future of world security.

HW Brands (4:21)

And in writing that book, of course, I had to nod in passing to the other side.

HW Brands (4:26)

But when you write a biography, you.

HW Brands (4:28)

Cannot help giving the impression that your.

HW Brands (4:31)

Subject is at the center of the universe.

HW Brands (4:34)

Your subject is on every page, and.

HW Brands (4:35)

Other people are cameos coming in from the outside. And I thought that wasn't fair to.

HW Brands (4:39)

The other side of the debate.

HW Brands (4:41)

The essence of the question in 1939, it was, what is America's role in the world?

HW Brands (4:47)

The narrow question was, should the United.

HW Brands (4:48)

States join Britain in its fight against Germany? But the broader question was, should the United States be a leader, the leader of the world?

HW Brands (4:57)

The United States in 1940, 1941, had.

HW Brands (5:01)

The economic capacity to do that.

HW Brands (5:03)

The question was, did it have the political will to do that? At the start of my story, where.

HW Brands (5:08)

I Focus in 1939, the great majority.

HW Brands (5:11)

Of Americans said, no, we do not.

HW Brands (5:13)

Have the political will to do that.

HW Brands (5:14)

We do not have the political desire to do that.

HW Brands (5:16)

That would be a grave mistake.

HW Brands (5:18)

At the end of my story, after.

HW Brands (5:20)

Pearl harbor, the vast majority of Americans say, yes, we do.

HW Brands (5:24)

We must be a leader, the leader of the world. Now, that was 1939 to 1941, when.

HW Brands (5:29)

I was planning this book.

HW Brands (5:32)

This was a debate that had been reopened, not least by the fact that.

HW Brands (5:36)

The campaign of Donald Trump in 2016 had appropriated the label for the leading anti interventionist voice from that earlier debate, America first, which became the title of my book. And so it has historical reference, and in fact, in my book, it refers.

HW Brands (5:54)

To the America first committee, of which Charles Lindbergh, who is one of my.

HW Brands (5:59)

Two protagonists, was a leading voice.

HW Brands (6:01)

But it also has contemporary resonance because President Donald Trump began to question America's commitment to its longstanding standing.

HW Brands (6:09)

Allies began to question whether the United States needs to remain a leader of the world.

HW Brands (6:15)

Now, in 1940, the question was, should.

HW Brands (6:18)

America become the leader of the world? And Americans voted, in essence, yes, we should. In 2024, the question was, should America remain the leader of the world? And in the earlier case, Americans voted for the candidate most devoted to intervention. In 2024, the Americans voted for the candidate who said, no, we need to.

HW Brands (6:41)

Reconfigure our approach to the world.

Sharon McMahon (6:43)

Yeah. The subtitle of your book is about this head to head Roosevelt vs Lindbergh in the Shadow of War. And you certainly laid out a really interesting case for how Americans voiced their approval or disapproval for certain viewpoint on the United States place on the world stage. But for somebody who is new to this conversation, who doesn't know the historical context of America first, maybe they've heard the name Charles Lindbergh. Give us a little bit more background about who we're talking about, why such a man would have such an incredible amount of influence on the President, on Americans in general. I would love to hear a little bit more context about who Charles Lindbergh was and what he did.

HW Brands (7:32)

So I wanted to retell the debate.

HW Brands (7:35)

From 1939 to 1941.

HW Brands (7:37)

I wanted, to the extent that I could, to put it in the words of principles for the opposing positions, the interventionist position.

HW Brands (7:47)

It was fairly obvious who the principal spokesman would be. That would be Franklin Roosevelt, the President of the United States. And nobody needs to have explained why the President of the United States would be a part of this debate.

HW Brands (7:57)

He was the President of the United States.

HW Brands (7:59)

Charles Lindbergh was an unlikely antagonist for Franklin Roosevelt. He was not a politician. He knew of politics. His father had been a member of.

HW Brands (8:08)

Congress, but Lindbergh himself avoided politics. He thought that politics was where people went to lie and to deceive people. He thought that politics was low and mean, and he studiously avoided identification as a politician.

HW Brands (8:22)

He was known to the world public because he had flown across the Atlantic solo in 1927.

HW Brands (8:28)

In fact, Lindbergh was probably as famous.

HW Brands (8:31)

In other countries as he was in the United States, because this was like landing on the moon.

HW Brands (8:35)

So Charles Lindbergh was the 1920s what Neil Armstrong was to America in the 1960s, the first to do this great thing.

HW Brands (8:42)

He came along at a moment when it was possible for somebody to become.

HW Brands (8:46)

A celebrity in the modern sense.

HW Brands (8:49)

Movie studios were beginning to make short movies called newsreels. That would be five or ten minutes of the latest stuff that happened this week. It would show at Saturdays in the.

HW Brands (8:59)

Movie theaters, and people could see these figures.

HW Brands (9:02)

Before this, they'd only been able to.

HW Brands (9:03)

Read about the President of the United.

HW Brands (9:05)

States or maybe see a still photograph. But now they could see moving pictures. And Lindbergh was perfect for this. He was a good looking guy. He was young.

HW Brands (9:12)

He had sort of a Midwestern reserve, and he didn't wear his celebrity too obviously.

HW Brands (9:20)

Now, what really brought him to the.

HW Brands (9:21)

Attention of the Americans, though, was a.

HW Brands (9:23)

Tragedy that occurred to him and his.

HW Brands (9:25)

Wife when their infant son was kidnapped and murdered in what immediately became known.

HW Brands (9:31)

As the crime of the century and giving rise to the trial of the century. And this was covered wall to wall.

HW Brands (9:37)

By the newsreel cameras, by the newspapers.

HW Brands (9:39)

And Lindbergh became this tragic hero.

HW Brands (9:42)

And so that, if anything, that sort of endeared him even more to Americans. Meanwhile, he maintained his expertise in aeronautical science.

HW Brands (9:51)

He was an expert in how planes flew. And because he was a celebrity, he.

HW Brands (9:56)

Was invited to examine the air forces of all the major powers. He liked to fly himself around. He liked to travel. And so he would go to France.

HW Brands (10:04)

And the French would say, come look at our air force.

HW Brands (10:06)

Tell us what we're doing right.

HW Brands (10:07)

Tell us how we can improve. He was invited to Germany, he was invited to Russia. He was invited to Japan and Britain.

HW Brands (10:12)

And, of course, the United States.

HW Brands (10:14)

And so he was this leading authority.

HW Brands (10:17)

On aircraft, which looked likely to be the new technology in the next war, should there be one.

HW Brands (10:24)

But between his celebrity and his expertise.

HW Brands (10:28)

When this debate began, when Europe goes.

HW Brands (10:31)

To war, and immediately Americans are saying, should we get involved in the war or should we not? And when President Franklin Roosevelt begins to.

HW Brands (10:37)

Say, well, at least we need to assist the countries that are fighting against Nazi Germany, Lindbergh, partly channeling his father's.

HW Brands (10:45)

Experience during World War I, when he.

HW Brands (10:47)

Was badly used for criticizing American involvement, but also because he firmly believed that America was best served by maintaining its.

HW Brands (10:57)

Distance from the affairs of Europe. Most Americans thought of Europe as a.

HW Brands (11:01)

Continent that was always beset by wars.

HW Brands (11:03)

And these were wars that did not involve the United States.

HW Brands (11:07)

And when Lindbergh heard Roosevelt saying what Lindbergh took as we ought to take.

HW Brands (11:12)

The first steps toward getting involved, Lindbergh.

HW Brands (11:14)

Was sufficiently famous that he could call up the major radio networks and say.

HW Brands (11:20)

I'd like to give a radio speech in response to what the President has said.

HW Brands (11:24)

And I think a bit to his own surprise, he discovered that he was actually pretty good at writing and giving these speeches.

HW Brands (11:32)

And people responded.

HW Brands (11:34)

Now, early in this debate in 1939.

HW Brands (11:37)

Americans were largely on his side.

HW Brands (11:41)

And so they would say, that's exactly right.

HW Brands (11:43)

We ought to stay out of this war. The last time was a big mistake. We're not going to make the mistake again. And so he became drawn into this discussion of contemporary politics.

HW Brands (11:52)

Although he still considered himself not a.

HW Brands (11:55)

Politician, an anti politician. He was asked on a number of occasions whether he would be willing to accept a nomination for. For senator. People even talked about him as a candidate for president. He said, no, I don't want to.

HW Brands (12:06)

Do that at all.

Sharon McMahon (12:07)

The first chapter in your book is something that I think is something that weighs in the minds of many Americans. The first chapter is called the Allure of Neutrality. As a historian, what is your assessment of Americans being enamored with the allure of neutrality? Has that ultimately led the United States to more peace and prosperity? Has it led away from that? Just given, like this sort of bird's eye view of the sweep of history?

HW Brands (12:40)

The first president of the United States.

HW Brands (12:42)

George Washington, was for the first time.

HW Brands (12:44)

Confronted with the question of what should.

HW Brands (12:46)

The American attitude be when Europe goes to war? So Britain and France and several other countries went to war as a result of the French Revolution. And so this is in the early 1790s.

HW Brands (12:57)

And George Washington believed that getting involved.

HW Brands (13:00)

In that war on either side would.

HW Brands (13:02)

Be a mistake for the United States.

HW Brands (13:04)

And he did something that is not part of his constitutional authority that he just decided to do on his own.

HW Brands (13:09)

He proclaimed neutrality for the United States. He said, the United States will be neutral.

HW Brands (13:14)

And the United States was neutral in that war.

HW Brands (13:17)

When George Washington left office, he delivered what has been called his farewell address. And his parting advice to Americans was.

HW Brands (13:25)

Stay out of the troubles of Europe.

HW Brands (13:28)

And this became a touchstone for American foreign policy from the 1790s into the 1930s, America did not get involved in Europe's wars.

HW Brands (13:39)

But for the one exception I mentioned earlier, World War I. And Americans looked on this 150 years of neutrality vis a vis the affairs of Europe as a great time for America. America grew from being a country with.

HW Brands (13:55)

A population the size of modern Houston.

HW Brands (13:58)

To a country with 100 million people, to a country having the most powerful economy in the world and not having been involved in the wars of Europe.

HW Brands (14:09)

Which to American eyes seemed endless. Most Americans could trace their ancestral roots.

HW Brands (14:14)

To Europe, and most Americans thank their ancestors for leaving that united continent and coming to America. And George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, president after.

HW Brands (14:26)

President, said, maintain that Washington rule, maintain neutrality. The Atlantic Ocean is wide, keep it wide. The Pacific Ocean is wide, keep it wide. America is fortunate not having powerful neighbors.

HW Brands (14:40)

That we have to worry about.

HW Brands (14:41)

If we go into Europe, it's because.

HW Brands (14:43)

We choose to go, not because we have to go.

HW Brands (14:46)

And most Americans in the late 1930s would have said that policy of neutrality.

HW Brands (14:51)

Has served the United States very well.

HW Brands (14:54)

Congress was so persuaded that starting in 1935, it passed a series of laws.

HW Brands (14:59)

The neutrality laws, that mandated neutrality that.

HW Brands (15:04)

Made it nearly impossible for a president to lead the United States into a European war the way Woodrow Wilson had done the first time around.

HW Brands (15:12)

So Congress took the position, okay, we were suckered the first time by being.

HW Brands (15:17)

Pulled in to pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire. We're not going to do it again. And moreover, we're not going to let.

HW Brands (15:23)

A president move us closer and closer to war until war becomes inevitable. So if you had asked Americans in 1939, has neutrality served the United States well?

HW Brands (15:34)

Overwhelmingly, they would have said yes and.

HW Brands (15:36)

Don'T mess with it.

Sharon McMahon (15:38)

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Sharon McMahon (17:34)

N It's one of those situations that, you know, you have to think back to George Washington. How much of his proclamations about like, America should remain neutral was predicated on this idea of like, listen, we don't have a standing army. We need both Britain and France to be trading partners. It would not behoove us to be like, we're only allied with one of these countries and screw the rest of y'all. How much of that was based on those ideas of like, we don't have, first of all, the means or desire to have a standing army to fight these other countries anyway?

HW Brands (18:14)

Well, that was exactly it, yeah. Yes.

HW Brands (18:17)

And so Americans looked at Europe and they said they have to have standing.

HW Brands (18:20)

Armies because they're constantly going to war.

HW Brands (18:23)

We don't have to have a standing army. And therefore we can use those resources.

HW Brands (18:27)

To develop our economy, to spread out the population, to build our cities, to build our industry. And if we mimic Europe by joining.

HW Brands (18:36)

These wars, well, that's a cost that's going to come out of American prosperity and of the American future.

Sharon McMahon (18:42)

To what extent do you view Charles Lindbergh's motivations as a continuation of the motivations of George Washington? Charles Lindbergh has famously been associated with Nazis. He's famously been associated with anti Semitic rhetoric. Do you think that his version of America first versus the George Washington version of America first was motivated by the same hey, we can pour our own resources into our personal country's development. As opposed to antisemitism or as opposed to anti immigrant rhetoric, how do you assess the motivations of Lindbergh?

HW Brands (19:22)

The first thing I will say is.

HW Brands (19:24)

That those people who called Lindbergh an.

HW Brands (19:26)

Anti Semite, who called him a Nazi stooge, had political reasons for doing that because they wanted to discredit his argument and they thought they could do so.

HW Brands (19:36)

By discrediting the person who made the argument.

HW Brands (19:39)

Lindbergh shared some of the stereotypes, some of the prejudices of his time. But the principal motivation for supporting the.

HW Brands (19:48)

George Washington policy of neutrality, of maintaining.

HW Brands (19:51)

A distance from the affairs of Europe.

HW Brands (19:53)

Was exactly that of Washington. This is not good for the United States.

HW Brands (19:57)

It might be good for American arms manufacturers.

HW Brands (20:00)

It might be good for a president.

HW Brands (20:02)

Who is eager to find an excuse.

HW Brands (20:05)

For running for a third term previously forbidden. So there are interest groups in the.

HW Brands (20:10)

United States who might want to promote.

HW Brands (20:13)

War, and there are even honest citizens.

HW Brands (20:15)

Who might think it's a good idea. But Lindbergh said, I don't think it's a good idea. And here's why I think it's not a good idea.

HW Brands (20:20)

Lindbergh had this very odd relationship with modernity.

HW Brands (20:24)

Of course, his celebrity came from the.

HW Brands (20:26)

Fact that he was at the cutting.

HW Brands (20:28)

Edge of modernity, even did this thing.

HW Brands (20:30)

That had never been done before by means of modern technology.

HW Brands (20:33)

But he disliked cities.

HW Brands (20:36)

He didn't like technology, he didn't like crowds. He would have been much happier living a hundred years before the time he lived.

HW Brands (20:43)

He always used to talk about how America used to be unspoiled and life was slower and calmer, and he wasn't.

HW Brands (20:50)

Being chased around by his generation's version of the paparazzi.

HW Brands (20:54)

So in certain respects, in certain important.

HW Brands (20:56)

Respects, the difference of opinion over whether the United States should become the leader.

HW Brands (21:00)

Of the world was, did you think that America's 19th century experience, where the United States remained aloof, was that a good model? Did you like what that produced?

HW Brands (21:13)

And Lindbergh did.

HW Brands (21:14)

And Lindbergh is saying, that's what got us to where we are today.

HW Brands (21:17)

But there were others who said, the.

HW Brands (21:18)

World has changed and the United States.

HW Brands (21:20)

Needs to join that change.

HW Brands (21:22)

The United States needs to move forward.

HW Brands (21:26)

And expand its frontiers, expand its forces.

HW Brands (21:29)

Expand its ambitions, expand. Now that Saige won the argument, not.

HW Brands (21:33)

Least because Japan did attack the United.

HW Brands (21:35)

States at Pearl Harbor.

HW Brands (21:36)

But even absent that, Franklin Roosevelt had managed his policy of engaging the United.

HW Brands (21:43)

States more and more in the affairs of Europe, particularly in support of Britain, until Americans were morally invested in Britain's survival and then Britain's defeat.

HW Brands (21:58)

So that it would have been very difficult by the summer of 1941 for.

HW Brands (22:02)

America to say, ah, we've done enough.

HW Brands (22:03)

We'Re not going to go and we'll.

HW Brands (22:05)

Let Britain go down to defeat. So Roosevelt was exceedingly astute politically. He bent the rules of what most people would have called honesty and truth in terms of what he was doing.

HW Brands (22:18)

But he did bring Americans emotionally around to the idea that American interest required.

HW Brands (22:26)

Engaging with Nazi Germany, taking on Nazi Germany and defeating Nazi Germany.

Sharon McMahon (22:31)

What about the very long standing criticism on the part of historians? Even if one is to accept the premise that there were people who benefited from painting Lindbergh as an anti Semite because they had pro war sensibilities, what about his actual anti Semitic comments about how like it's the Jews who are agitating us towards war? War and similar statements of that nature.

HW Brands (22:57)

The speech that Lindbergh gave that was.

HW Brands (22:59)

Widely cited as evidence of anti Semitism was delivered in Des Moines, Iowa in.

HW Brands (23:05)

The autumn of 1941, in which he said, There are three groups primarily that are trying to get the United States.

HW Brands (23:12)

Involved in the war.

HW Brands (23:13)

There is the British government. And the British government, said Lindbergh, understandably.

HW Brands (23:19)

Want the United States to get involved in the war. Of course it will help Britain avoid.

HW Brands (23:23)

Defeat and it's in their interests. The second group is American Jews. He said, it's perfectly understandable that American.

HW Brands (23:30)

Jews would want the United States to get involved in this war, considering what.

HW Brands (23:33)

Has happened to their loved ones, their relatives in Europe. Perfectly understandable. The third group is the Roosevelt administration. The Roosevelt administration is the most powerful and the most insidious of these groups. And the Roosevelt administration wants the United States to get involved because Franklin Roosevelt wants to gain more power and he wants to take the United States to a place where the United States ought not to go. So this was the essence of the case that was made against Charles Lindbergh as an anti Semite. He has identified that there is this.

HW Brands (24:06)

Influential Jewish lobby in the United States.

HW Brands (24:09)

That would like to see the United States go to war.

HW Brands (24:11)

He did make a point of saying.

HW Brands (24:13)

That it's very understandable that they're taking this position. However, it's not a position that I think is in America's interest. And when Lindbergh was criticized by all.

HW Brands (24:23)

Sorts of people, not everybody, but all.

HW Brands (24:25)

Sorts of people for saying this, he was somewhat puzzled because he didn't say, I hate you or anything like that. He just said, they have an interest, and I don't think it's the interest of the United States. And he went to Herbert Hoover, the former president, and he said, what did I say that was wrong? And Hoover said, it's not that what.

HW Brands (24:46)

You said was wrong, it's that you.

HW Brands (24:47)

Were wrong to say it.

HW Brands (24:49)

Because as soon as you mention a.

HW Brands (24:51)

Particular ethnic religious group, then you're going to be criticized as picking on that group, especially under the circumstances, picking on Jews. And so Lindbergh became radioactive at that point. And the America First Committee says, just stop giving speeches.

HW Brands (25:07)

You're really not doing the cause any good. And Lindbergh remains sort of mystified by this.

HW Brands (25:12)

He said, I got nothing against the Jews, but basically I'm being silenced for saying that they want America to go to war.

Sharon McMahon (25:19)

Did he have nothing against the Jews, though? Because he's really good friends with Henry Ford. Henry Ford later reported that when Charles Lindbergh comes to visit me, all we talk about is the Jews.

HW Brands (25:31)

That's all Henry Ford talked about.

Sharon McMahon (25:32)

Yeah, well, of course, Henry Ford openly anti Semitic. But your assessment is that Charles Lindbergh was not anti Semitic. Is that your contention?

HW Brands (25:41)

No, I'm not saying that.

HW Brands (25:42)

I am saying that in a world where there were, what shall I say, grossly violent anti Semites, namely Nazi Germany, Lindbergh's anti Semitism was at the end of the spectrum of. He said that Jews have a lot of influence in the media. Well, actually, I mean, that was true. They controlled most of the Hollywood studios at the time, which put out the newsreels.

HW Brands (26:05)

So he was prone to stereotyping.

HW Brands (26:07)

But it was a time when all sorts of people were doing this. Remember, this was a time when the United States legalized racial segregation. But furthermore, and sort of the larger point is that wasn't the motivation behind the position that he took. And there were plenty of people who.

HW Brands (26:23)

Took the same position as Lindbergh did, that no one accused of being anti Semitic, except sort of in the same way that some people will contend that.

HW Brands (26:32)

Criticism of Israel's government today is, by that fact, anti Semitic. So the term anti Semitism has meant lots of things at various times, but.

HW Brands (26:45)

It wasn't Lindbergh's motivation for the position that he took.

Sharon McMahon (26:49)

How does one ascertain Charles Lindbergh's motivation? How does a historian like you arrive at the conclusion that his motivation was X?

HW Brands (26:58)

Okay, this is a very good question. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what motivates you. I don't know what motivates somebody else. Sometimes I don't know what motivates myself. So I have to go on the evidence, okay?

HW Brands (27:08)

And I will say that the evidence.

HW Brands (27:10)

Is overwhelming that Lindbergh was motivated by strategic concerns, by concerns that if the United States got involved in Europe, it would find itself up to its neck in commitments for the foreseeable future. For example, that if the United States went in Europe a second time, it would never get out again. And here we are 80 years after the end of World War II, and the United States has thousands of troops in Europe, and the United States is in the thick of a war between Ukraine and Russia. And if you had put that possibility to people in 1938, the United States will have taken upon itself responsibility for Ukraine and a war against Russia, 99.9% of Americans would say, you're out of your mind.

HW Brands (27:58)

America has no business being involved in a war in the middle of Eurasia.

HW Brands (28:02)

Thousands of miles from the United States, and over nothing that has any effect.

HW Brands (28:06)

On the United States. And Lindbergh predicted this sort of thing.

HW Brands (28:10)

This is exactly what's going to happen.

HW Brands (28:11)

Once we start down that road. Once we say that American security depends.

HW Brands (28:15)

On the state of strategic power in Europe, then once you go there, then we'll be forever getting out.

Sharon McMahon (28:25)

Hey, friends. I'm excited to share a podcast with you that I think you're going to love. I recently joined Elise Lunan on her podcast Pulling the Thread to chat about historical secrets and my approach to judging people from the past and my perspective on our current moment in time. I also tell a story that may convince you to work with instead of against your enemies. Each week, Elise sits down with today's leading thinkers, authors, experts, doctors, healers, scientists to try to answer life's big questions. Why we do what we do, how we can know and love each other better, and how we can heal ourselves and our world. You can find my episode and all of Elise's incredible conversations on Pulling the Thread with Elise Lunan on the Free Odyssey app and everywhere you get your podcasts.

Sharon McMahon (29:21)

How does this debate between Lindbergh and the representation of the America first movement, how does that come to a head in the interventionist viewpoint of fdr? What does that look like to the average American if you can just describe? Are they writing opposing op EDS in newspapers? Are they giving speeches? Being like, FDR is totally misguided. I hate that Charles Lindbergh dude. Obviously, I'm not being historically accurate with any kind of language, but you Take my point. How does the average American experience this debate between these warring factions?

HW Brands (29:57)

They can hear. Roosevelt gave radio addresses, so some of them were broadcast. When he's addressing Congress. They can read the transcripts in the newspaper so they can hear what the President says. Roosevelt gave fireside chats where he goes directly into people's houses via radio. They could hear Lindbergh give his side of the story by radio. So this is the first time in.

HW Brands (30:23)

The radio age when Americans can listen to the debate unfold in real time in previous decades.

HW Brands (30:31)

They could follow along, but it would.

HW Brands (30:32)

Be the next day, the soonest, and.

HW Brands (30:34)

They would read what the remarks of the President were, what the remarks of Lindbergh in this case were.

HW Brands (30:39)

They could still do that if they.

HW Brands (30:40)

Weren'T listening to the radio, but now.

HW Brands (30:41)

They could listen to it on the radio. And most of them at the beginning.

HW Brands (30:45)

Of this debate thought that war in Europe was far away. And most of them hoped it would remain far away. You asked about Lindbergh's motivation. So the question of Roosevelt's motivation is in some ways even more opaque because I could read Lindbergh's diary. Lindbergh wrote a diary copiously with Roosevelt. There's nothing comparable. Roosevelt didn't keep a diary that was anything like that. He intended to write his memoirs after.

HW Brands (31:14)

He retired, but he died in office.

HW Brands (31:16)

So he never wrote his memoirs. Roosevelt had a habit of telling people.

HW Brands (31:20)

That he was talking to what they wanted to hear.

HW Brands (31:22)

So somebody would come into his office pitching this policy, and Roosevelt would nod and that person would leave thinking, the.

HW Brands (31:28)

President agrees with me. The next visitor of the White House would be somebody pitching just the opposite.

HW Brands (31:32)

And Roosevelt would nod and that person would leave saying, I think the President agrees with me. Roosevelt was a master at gauging his audience and figuring out how to use them.

HW Brands (31:43)

A source that was very useful for me were Roosevelt's press conferences. Now, press conferences in those days were.

HW Brands (31:48)

Not like press conferences today. They were not broadcast. They were press for the newspaper. And reporters sit there and they would scribble stuff down. The rules were that the reporters could.

HW Brands (31:59)

Quote Roosevelt, the President, only when the President said, you can quote me on that. For the rest, it was on background.

HW Brands (32:05)

They couldn't even say it was a senior White House official, that he was.

HW Brands (32:08)

Just giving them information. Result of this was that Roosevelt, who.

HW Brands (32:11)

Held his press conferences twice a week for 12 years, made reporters essentially feel like co conspirators, almost members of the administration, because they knew if they crossed him, if they broke the rules, if they said Something they weren't supposed to.

HW Brands (32:25)

Say that he couldn't be quoted on.

HW Brands (32:26)

If they said something who was too.

HW Brands (32:28)

Hostile toward him, they wouldn't get an invitation to come back.

HW Brands (32:31)

And of course, then, as now, access.

HW Brands (32:33)

To news sources is crucial for reporters.

HW Brands (32:35)

So Roosevelt would tell the reporters more.

HW Brands (32:39)

Than he would say in public.

HW Brands (32:41)

He would, for example, question Lindbergh's loyalty to the United States.

HW Brands (32:46)

Now, it's one thing to question the.

HW Brands (32:48)

Loyalty of somebody when your country is.

HW Brands (32:50)

At war, but this was before the.

HW Brands (32:52)

United States went to war.

HW Brands (32:53)

And when Lindbergh would say that intervention.

HW Brands (32:55)

In the European war is a bad idea for the United States, and Roosevelt.

HW Brands (32:59)

Would criticize him as disloyal to the United States.

HW Brands (33:02)

And this would come out in the reporting of the newspapers who were at the press conferences.

HW Brands (33:08)

And Lindbergh would hear about this.

HW Brands (33:09)

He would say, well, this is kind of unfair, because how can I be disloyal? I have a right to say what I want to say. Every American has these First Amendment rights. But Roosevelt gradually ramped up the criticism of Lindbergh.

HW Brands (33:24)

He turned the FBI loose on Lindbergh.

HW Brands (33:26)

And encouraged members of his administration to call Lindbergh a traitor.

HW Brands (33:30)

Again, this before the United States is.

HW Brands (33:31)

At war, when Lindbergh's just stating his point of view.

Sharon McMahon (33:35)

It's pretty well known that it was the Pearl harbor attack that really forced FDR to become public with his more overt plans to become involved in the war. And, of course, he had been preparing and planning and ramping up production and planting the seeds and all these things in advance of Pearl Harbor. But I would love for you to talk a little bit more about what is Charles Lindbergh's reaction after the Pearl harbor attack and after a United States declaration of war. When it's clear we've been attacked on our territory, we have to get involved. How does he react to that?

HW Brands (34:12)

Lindbergh immediately volunteered for service in the Army Air Corps.

HW Brands (34:16)

He was an accomplished pilot, and he thought he could do a good job.

HW Brands (34:19)

For the United States.

HW Brands (34:20)

His application was rejected by Roosevelt. The last thing Roosevelt wanted was for.

HW Brands (34:26)

His principal critic on the war to.

HW Brands (34:29)

Become a military hero. So that just didn't look good. Even before Pearl Harbor, Lindbergh began to say in his diary, I wish this debate would come to an end. It's really difficult to be arguing in this position when it's pretty clear I've lost the public that we're going to war. He said, I would much rather be.

HW Brands (34:47)

Fighting this war, even though I disagree with the war. I'm a loyal American.

HW Brands (34:50)

If the war is going to come, I want to be there and fight.

HW Brands (34:53)

So he wasn't allowed to fight in the war. He wasn't officially allowed to fight.

HW Brands (34:56)

However, when Roosevelt rejected his application to.

HW Brands (35:00)

Rejoin the Army Air Corps, he had been in it earlier.

HW Brands (35:02)

Lindbergh signed on with aircraft manufacturers to offer advice on how to improve their.

HW Brands (35:08)

Fighter planes and the bombers. And he went out to the Pacific.

HW Brands (35:12)

To show pilots how to fly them. And without the explicit approval of the.

HW Brands (35:18)

War Department, he began to fly missions against the Japanese himself. So he did get into the war.

HW Brands (35:23)

War, but not official.

Sharon McMahon (35:24)

You know, I don't want to give too much away. I want people to read the book. But what are the long term effects of this debate between FDR and Charles Lindbergh? Of course, we have sort of a new America first movement that has become ascendant in the United States. It's something that, you know, Americans decided for probably a variety of reasons. When you're choosing a candidate, you take them as a package deal. And so perhaps even if people chose to vote for Trump because they feel that inflation is too high and that's negatively impacting their family or whatever their motivations are, part of that package deal is an adoption of this more America first orientation of a foreign policy view. What are the long term effects of America first in the United States? And how is today's America first movement different or the same as it was in the 1930s, early 1940s?

HW Brands (36:23)

Lindbergh side lost the debate.

HW Brands (36:25)

And they lost the debate in a way that made it nearly impossible for.

HW Brands (36:29)

Anybody to take up their side of the debate.

HW Brands (36:32)

For 80 years they lost the debate. And in doing so, their chief spokesman, Lindbergh, was criticized and generally understood to.

HW Brands (36:43)

Be this Nazi stooge, this anti Semite.

HW Brands (36:45)

This all around bad guy. And the anti interventionist side was labeled isolationism.

HW Brands (36:51)

And isolationism became a curse word in American politics.

HW Brands (36:55)

So for 80 years after Lindbergh side loses its debate, until really the 2010s, that position was considered not simply misguided, but somehow evil. And if you could be labeled an isolationist and you were in that circle of people who debated these kind of topics, then it was a career ending label. So Lindbergh's side lost the debate and they lost it for the next 80 years. Nearly.

HW Brands (37:23)

Occasionally Americans would say, do we really.

HW Brands (37:26)

Need to do all that stuff? Do we really need to fight this war in Vietnam? And after the war in Vietnam ended in a defeat, then America said, well.

HW Brands (37:34)

I don't know, maybe we don't have.

HW Brands (37:35)

To be the leader of that part of the world.

HW Brands (37:38)

And when the war in Iraq turned.

HW Brands (37:40)

Sour, when the war in Afghanistan ended in deceit, and Americans were saying, well.

HW Brands (37:43)

If this is what leadership of the.

HW Brands (37:45)

World entails, maybe we ought to dial it back a little bit. So there's that aspect of it. And as you're kind of suggested, Lindbergh became the poster child for bad isolationism.

HW Brands (37:56)

Not only was it misguided, but he was a bad person.

HW Brands (37:59)

And that was the understanding of Lindbergh. Now, we've never lost the importance of considering what America's role in the world ought to be, but Americans have reflexively taken that we are the leader of the world, and that's the way we ought to be.

HW Brands (38:12)

But the debate was raised again by.

HW Brands (38:15)

Donald Trump in 2016 and during his presidency. So he launched a tariff war that was new because part of the leader of the world approach was, well, we lead the world's economy by opening our economy to trade and building this. Well, the term was globalization.

HW Brands (38:31)

And Americans began to sour on that.

HW Brands (38:33)

By the end of the 1990s, with.

HW Brands (38:36)

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

HW Brands (38:38)

Americans began to question whether the United States really needs to be fighting these.

HW Brands (38:42)

Wars in faraway places, wars that go.

HW Brands (38:44)

On forever and cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

HW Brands (38:46)

And that contributed to the election of.

HW Brands (38:48)

Donald Trump in 2016. Now, somebody in the Trump campaign decided that they would adopt the America first label. So there was a real connection to that earlier time. So we have had the debate in the election of 2024, and it looks like the United States is moving in that direction.

HW Brands (39:06)

How far it will go remains to be seen. But there's a big difference between the.

HW Brands (39:09)

Debate and in the 1930s and debate today. The debate from 1939 to 1941 was whether the United States should become the leader of the world. Today, the debate is whether the United States should remain the leader of the world.

HW Brands (39:22)

It's the same debate, but from different perspectives.

HW Brands (39:25)

And so in either case, the question that Americans should consider is, what does this entail?

HW Brands (39:32)

Does it mean that the United States.

HW Brands (39:33)

Is responsible for the welfare of Ukraine? Does it mean the United States is responsible for the welfare of Taiwan?

HW Brands (39:40)

And the answer to that could be yes. The answer could be no.

HW Brands (39:44)

But the value of looking at the.

HW Brands (39:45)

Debate the first time around is to.

HW Brands (39:47)

Acknowledge that there is and could be a debate.

HW Brands (39:50)

So it doesn't do.

HW Brands (39:51)

At least, it seems to me, it.

HW Brands (39:53)

Doesn'T suffice to say that the United.

HW Brands (39:55)

States needs to defend Taiwan in 2025 because the United States went to war against Germany in 1941. If the United States is going to go to war against China over Taiwan.

HW Brands (40:07)

It should be debated in those terms.

HW Brands (40:09)

It's essentially the same debate, but there's.

HW Brands (40:10)

New evidence, and the new evidence has to support the arguments today.

HW Brands (40:13)

You can't simply rely on evidence that's 80 years old.

Sharon McMahon (40:17)

What do you hope the reader who is reading America first, what do you hope they take away and tuck into their pocket after they close the last page? Something they share with their friend, or they continue to ruminate on, or they adopt as a new way of looking at the world? What do you hope some of the takeaways are?

HW Brands (40:36)

We are fortunate enough to live in a democracy where ultimately the policy of the government of the United States reflects.

HW Brands (40:42)

What a majority of Americans want. The United States went to war in.

HW Brands (40:45)

1941 in part because Japan attacked the.

HW Brands (40:48)

United States at Pearl harbor, but primarily because Franklin Roosevelt had persuaded most Americans.

HW Brands (40:53)

That an advanced view of American security.

HW Brands (40:56)

Was in America's interest. And so the same attitude ought to.

HW Brands (41:01)

Apply today, namely that voters need to think about this.

HW Brands (41:04)

We choose people in part because of their views on foreign policy, as you.

HW Brands (41:08)

Said, not exclusively for their views on foreign policy, but the officials that we.

HW Brands (41:12)

Elect, they are responsible to us indirectly, imperfectly. What they do in foreign policy is what voters want them to do in foreign policy. So the responsibility ultimately is on us.

Sharon McMahon (41:25)

Thank you so much for your time today. I always love learning new perspectives on a time period that, you know, has been well documented. This is a time period around which thousands and thousands, like I want to say upwards of 9,000 books have been written about this time period in the United States. And it's always interesting. Of course, I haven't read all 9,000, but I've read a few. I've read a few hundred probably. It's always interesting to have a new an interesting set of viewpoints to consider when building out this big puzzle of how history might work together. I really appreciate your time today.

Sharon McMahon (41:59)

Thank you so much for being here.

HW Brands (42:00)

Delighted to join you.

Sharon McMahon (42:02)

You can find America first wherever you buy your books. If you want to support a local bookshop, you can go to yours or you can head to bookshop.org I'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing, sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.

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