Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 2"

Title: Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 2
Release Date: September 23, 2024
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guest: Craig Thompson
Platform: Acast

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Introduction

In the second episode of "Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty," host Sharon McMahon delves deep into the intricate process of designing the book cover for her latest work, "The Small and the Mighty." Joined by Craig Thompson, Sharon shares the challenges, iterations, and eventual triumphs she experienced in creating a cover that truly encapsulates the essence of her book.

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The Journey to the Perfect Cover

Sharon’s Vision and Initial Challenges

Sharon begins by outlining her initial vision for the book cover. She emphasizes the need for a balance between historical nods and modern aesthetics.

[02:10] Sharon McMahon: "I wanted there to be both a nod to history, but also an element of modernity. I did not want it to look like a black and white portrait that was lifted from history and plonked on the cover."

Sharon explains her desire to avoid traditional, academic-looking covers often seen in historical books. Instead, she aimed for something vibrant and appealing, particularly to a modern audience.

The Role of Color

Color selection played a pivotal role in Sharon’s vision. She discusses her research into color psychology and its impact on book sales.

[06:30] Sharon McMahon: "Red is a very dominant color. You really see a red cover, right. And you can see in another part of my screen a lot of books are black or white. Yeah, a lot of them. And a surprisingly small number, green."

Despite her initial inclination towards blue, the final cover settled on a cream base with red and blue accents, striking a balance between visibility and emotional resonance.

Publisher Collaboration and Market Research

Sharon highlights the collaborative effort between her, her editor, and the publisher’s design team. They conducted extensive market research, including feedback from retail buyers, to ensure the cover would appeal to a broad audience.

[10:10] Sharon McMahon: "They actually did market research on potential covers. They went to the buyers of different stores and asked which cover would be most likely to purchase."

This data-driven approach was instrumental in refining the cover design, ensuring it would stand out in various retail environments, from bookstores to airport shops.

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Iterative Design Process

Initial Design Flops

Sharon shares several early iterations of the book cover, each missing the mark for various reasons. From clichéd historical imagery to overly busy designs, these covers didn’t align with her vision.

[16:22] Craig: "The edge of a cliff. It seems like she's about to jump. That's not fair."

[17:02] Sharon McMahon: "It looks like somebody just opened Microsoft Paint or Ms. Word and typed in, like, Helvetica, the Small and the mighty."

Evolving the Design

Through multiple revisions, Sharon and her team steadily moved away from nautical and overly traditional themes. They sought a design that was both modern and versatile, reflecting the book's focus on unsung American figures.

[25:09] Sharon McMahon: "It's a graffiti eagle. The graffeegle is not the vibe."

Finalizing the Cover

After numerous iterations, the team settled on a design featuring a versatile female figure intertwined with the American flag, symbolizing both history and contemporary relevance.

[35:35] Craig: "It's a woman in a white dress with a jaunty red cap and a red sash, waving an American flag while riding on the back of an eagle and pointing a sword."

While Craig expressed concerns about the initial aggressive tone of this design, further refinements ensured the final cover was both eye-catching and representative of the book’s themes.

---

Insights on the Publishing Process

Collaboration with Designers and Editors

Sharon elaborates on the indirect communication with designers, mediated through her editor. This process sometimes led to mismatched visions, necessitating multiple revisions.

[08:24] Sharon McMahon: "I didn't speak directly to the designer. I relayed my thoughts to my editor, and my editor talked to the designer."

Importance of Retailer Feedback

The feedback from retailers was crucial in shaping the final cover. Their input ensured the cover would perform well across various sales channels.

[10:46] Sharon McMahon: "The publisher considered feedback from retailers when making final selections, ensuring the cover would appeal in different retail settings."

Distribution Success

Sharon shares exciting news about the book's wide distribution, attributing much of this success to the effective cover design.

[12:06] Sharon McMahon: "The Small and the Mighty is going to be one of the most widely distributed books in America this fall... It's going to be in all the airports, all the Targets, all of the Barnes and Nobles, all of the indie stores."

---

Conclusion

Sharon McMahon's perseverance through the challenging cover design process paid off, resulting in a cover that not only met her vision but also resonated with retail partners and potential readers alike. Craig commends her for her dedication and the successful outcome.

[37:30] Craig: "Genuinely, a book that I would pass by and be like, oh, that's intriguing. What is that like? It's so ambiguous to what it could be that I like. It is engaging and you want to read it."

The episode wraps up with a promise of further insights in future episodes, including more design iterations and listener questions.

---

Notable Quotes

• Sharon McMahon [02:10]: "I wanted there to be both a nod to history, but also an element of modernity."
• Sharon McMahon [06:30]: "Red is a very dominant color. You really see a red cover, right."
• Sharon McMahon [10:10]: "They actually did market research on potential covers."
• Sharon McMahon [25:09]: "It's a graffiti eagle. The graffeegle is not the vibe."
• Craig [37:30]: "Genuinely, a book that I would pass by and be like, oh, that's intriguing."

---

Final Thoughts

"Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 2" offers a transparent look into the complexities of book cover design and the importance of aligning creative vision with market demands. Sharon McMahon's experience underscores the significance of collaboration, perseverance, and data-driven decisions in the publishing industry.

For those interested in the interplay between history, culture, and the art of book publishing, this episode provides valuable insights and an engaging narrative of turning a book into a market-ready success.

Transcript

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[Sharon McMahon]

Here's where it gets interesting is now available ad free. Head to sharonmcmahon.com ad free to subscribe today. Hello and welcome. Nice to see you. Craig.

[Craig]

We're back. Hello, we're back.

[Sharon McMahon]

We're back for episode two of How We Made the Small and Mighty. This time, Craig is in for a real treat. Are you ready for it? Craig? Are you ready for a treat?

[Craig]

So excited. There's been a lot of anticipation. You talked a lot about these covers, so I can't wait.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, if you have been following me for any period of time, you know that I've been working on this book, the Small and the Mighty for over three years and we went through many rounds of COVID options before finally landing on the COVID that we have now. Craig, almost all of the COVID options were horrible. Almost every single one. Bless the designers. This is no shade to them. I don't even know who they are. So nothing personal. No shade other than to say these were not the covers for me.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. And also to add, I love the COVID that we ended up with, yes, it's a beautiful, remarkable cover that's recognized, recognizable. You know, like the COVID we landed on, you can recognize from across the bookstore and just be like, there it is on the shelf. So I'm super happy with where we landed, but the journey to get there, let me tell you, it was circuitous. It was circuitous. So I am excited to both answer some more questions from listeners, but also to show you some of the covers. So where do you want to start? Do you want to start with questions or do you want to start with covers?

[Craig]

I think we start with questions.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. Okay.

[Craig]

We want to just unpack a little bit of how we got to the point. Just, like, how we even got into the covers conversation. So if you just want to walk me through a little bit of just that process, I want to know, did you have an idea when you were imagining this book, you're writing this book, did you have an idea of what you wanted the COVID to look like or any kind of semblance of that?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. So I had a few, like, words in mind. I wanted there to be both a nod to history, but also an element of modernity. I did not want it to look like a black and white portrait that was lifted from history and, like, plonked on the COVID or an oil painting of a specific figure. The library behind me is full of these kinds of covers, and they actually can be quite striking, But I knew that I didn't want that. Like here, this is a book about Abraham Lincoln, and it has a painting of Abraham Lincoln, and this is a good cover. You wouldn't want in a book about Abraham Lincoln to not have a picture of him on the COVID Yes, but that's not what I wanted. I did not want just an oil painting of a figure. So I knew that I wanted this book to appeal to somebody who is just at target buying her child's Valentine's Day classroom cards, and to be like, oh, that looks interesting. So in order to have that kind of vibe, it needs to have, like, an element of it being set in the modern day. So today's modern book covers, if you notice, they tend to be very busy and very colorful. Especially in the fiction category. Yeah, Historic fiction. Okay. Do you read historic fiction, Craig?

[Craig]

I haven't recently. So I'm trying to think of a cover.

[Sharon McMahon]

There is. Once you know this, you will not be able to unsee it, which is that there's a formula for historic fiction covers.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

It is in the background. Some kind of big historic event is happening it's planes, it's tanks, it's bombs, it's a burning building, it's something happening in the background. And in the foreground is one or more characters with their backs to the viewer, walking towards the thing that is happening. Oh, and often they're. They're holding something in their hands. They have a suitcase, they're pushing a bicycle, they're holding hands with a child. But the formula for historic fiction is often woman or people walking away towards some erupting volcano in the background. So I didn't want it to feel too stuffy, too academic. So those were some of my words, is that I wanted it to feel like a nod to history, but an element of the modern. And I think we eventually landed on it. But when you see some of these other covers, you're going to be like, that is not it, that's not it.

[Craig]

Trying to get closer when for those that can't see, obviously there's behind you. You have a library of books assorted by color. So color matters. Was there color in mind when you were thinking, I want my book to be this color or is I know it currently looks white? Is that something you knew from the get go that that's what you wanted it to be?

[Sharon McMahon]

That's a great question because I actually thought a lot about what color do I want it to be? Because obviously certain colors jump out at you more. Red is a very dominant color. You really see a red cover, right. And you can see in another part of my screen a lot of books are black or white. Yeah, a lot of them. And a surprisingly small number, green. In fact, the green shelf is down here. And I think having researched this, why aren't more book covers green? My hypothesis is that the human eye is so accustomed to seeing green. We see green foliage all the time that we kind of view green as almost like a non entity. In fact, have you ever been to Disney World or Disneyland?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

When they want to distract you from something, they painted a specific color of green and it's called go away green.

[Craig]

Yes, I've heard about that. That's fascinating.

[Sharon McMahon]

Isn't that so interesting? Like, don't look over here, just green and yeah, it's just nothing to see here. It's just green. So I think that maybe is one of the reasons more book covers are in green. I love green. I'm wearing green shirt right now. It's one of my favorite colors. So I was strongly leaning towards blue. In fact, I sent my team some colors that I liked. One of them was like A more vibrant. Almost like a periwinkle blue color. I was leaning towards blue, but not a royal blue. I didn't think that I wanted anything red. The red didn't seem to fit. So that was really sort of the only color I ever landed on was something blue. But ultimately we didn't go with blue. It's kind of a cream.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And there's red and blue on the cream now. I'm super happy with it. I love it now.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like the colors of the image actually pop more than the book.

[Sharon McMahon]

Totally.

[Craig]

Which I feel like makes you kind of draw your eye there.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Craig]

So the designer process, correct me if I'm wrong. Does that come through the publishers? Did the publishers find designers? Is it multiple designers you're working with? Is it one designer? And are they just pitching a bunch of concepts? What does that look like?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, the publisher handles all of that. So either they work with a designer that's on staff or they contract out with the designer. I couldn't even tell you exactly how they procured their designers because I would imagine it's. It varies. But the publisher, like the team you're working with, your editor, is the go between between the graphic design department and you. I never spoke to a designer.

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

I always relayed my thoughts to my editor, and my editor talked to the designer. There was no communication directly between me and them. So I don't even know how many designers worked on these covers. It could have been one person the whole time. It could have been, like, 20 people. I don't know the answer to that. I know that the final cover design was by a guy named Brian lemis. And again, I love the design now, but I don't know how many people now. I have personal friends who are authors who could never arrive at a cover design that they liked in conjunction with their publishing team. And they had to hire.

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

Their own graphic designer to get a cover that they liked. That's happened to more than one of my friends, in fact. So for a while there, I was like, am I gonna need to hire somebody to get a cover that I'm happy with? And ultimately, I'm so glad I stuck with the process. But it's not that unusual for somebody to hire their own if they cannot come up with something they're happy with in house.

[Craig]

Yeah. It sounds like based on what covers we might be seeing here, it might have not been the most encouraging from the start point. I'm glad that you finally got there. But that might have not been the experience starting out.

[Sharon McMahon]

No.

[Craig]

You talked about your editor being a part of that process. So was it you and your editor that was connected to the publisher, your agent, who all is involved in that cover process? Who gets to say yes?

[Sharon McMahon]

So it's my agent, my editor and me, and of course the designer. But then here's the interesting thing. Once they started sending us covers back and we started thinking, like, how is this gonna fly? What's the average person gonna think about this? I asked them to do this and they did. They actually did market research on potential covers. They actually went to the buyers of different stores. They went to the buyers of retail outlets and said, which one of these covers or three covers would you be most likely to purchase?

[Craig]

That's cool.

[Sharon McMahon]

Would you put this book on an end cap on your shelf? And they also ran it up the flagpole in marketing, in promotions to see, based on this cover, what are your thoughts about the likelihood that this book will get into the right hands? So because the COVID is so important to get right, there was not just like, oh, yeah, we decided and it's all good. I asked for them to talk to sales. So inside of the publishing, you know, there's all of these different departments. Of course, there's editing, graphic design, promotions, you know, marketing leadership. There's also a sales department. And that sales department actually goes out to the retailers and says, here are our titles for the fall.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And here's who might like this book. And this book is for people who read and loved X. So they also went to the sales team and said which cover would be an easier cover for you to sell to retailers. And then sales worked with retailers to see which cover sort of pulled better.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So while the retailers don't get an ultimate say, we did consider their feedback when making final selections.

[Craig]

That matters a lot. That's so fascinating to be able to have actual, like data and things to put towards it versus just being like.

[Sharon McMahon]

I like, I think it works.

[Craig]

Yeah, exactly. It's just opinion based on that.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, I think it works. And I would say that the market research ultimately paid off because I just recently found out that the Small and the Mighty is going to be one of the most widely distributed books in America this fall.

[Craig]

What?

[Sharon McMahon]

In terms of like the breadth and depth of retailer support. Like, it's going to be in like all the airports.

[Craig]

What?

[Sharon McMahon]

All the targets, all of the Barnes and Nobles, all of the indie stores, all of the online retailers, you know, they did this huge print run. Almost all the print run copies are spoken for by retailers who are like, we will take 8,000 copies. You know, like, whatever. I'm just making up numbers. But you know what really put it over the top? Of course, I'm a big Target shopper and I've always wanted my book to be in Target. And they take so few titles, and they take so few history titles, like truly almost no history titles. But to see how many copies are going to be sold in airport bookstores, it just like made me so happy to think about my book being bought by somebody, like passing by at an airport and being like, oh, this looks interesting. Oh, yeah, I have been meaning to read that. Just the idea that like travelers are going to see something that I wrote at the airport.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

I don't know why that tickles me so much, but it really does.

[Craig]

No, I think that's fascinating. It's such a unique place to buy a book and that's someone hoping to kind of get lost in a story. And I think it's perfect.

[Sharon McMahon]

I talked to somebody who actually works for one of the companies like I'm sure you've seen in airports, like Hudson News.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know those stores that are everywhere in airports who actually works for one of those. And they said, of course airports would buy this book. It's the exact kind of title that they like to carry. It appeals to both men and women.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

It has a striking cover that you notice as you pass by. And it's the kind of book that lends itself to a traveler nobody wants to get involved in. Book four of a seven part series.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, just randomly passing through the airport. So there's a specific kind of book that apparently does well in an airport bookstore. And apparently this meets the criteria. And I had no idea.

[Craig]

Just so happened you didn't even know you were doing that. That's right. That's amazing. We're talking about the idea of picking up a book and what that feeling is. Now, we talked a little bit about colors, giving a little bit of emotion. Was that something you were thinking of as far as when you were thinking of the COVID of this book or even just writing this book, do you know kind of what emotion you're trying to kind of pull from people as they pick this book up?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. I wanted the COVID to have a sense of being grounded in history, which I think it is. Right. Because it uses the flag. But also a sense of this not being a typical history book, which I think it also, you know, subconsciously sends that message that the figure on the COVID is not a Typical figure you see associated with the flag or associated with the COVID of a history book. But also, if you notice the orientation of the figure, she is looking sort of. Her face is sort of tilted up as though she is looking both into the future or into the past, but she's looking up into the stars. You see how the stars of the flag cover her face. She's looking up into the stars. One of the early versions had the flag image reversed, or it was an early version where the stripes of the flag were laid differently across her face. And it almost looked like she was wearing a red blindfold the way the stripes were hitting her face. And I was. That looks now like she's being kidnapped against her will. She's being subjected to American history, and it totally changes the vibe.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

To have her face covered in the stars and for her to be looking up into the stars.

[Craig]

Yeah. That's a totally different message.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. Yeah.

[Craig]

Well, the anticipation is killing me. I want to see these covers, so let's. If we want to unpack these.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, I do. Okay. Are you ready?

[Craig]

I am so excited.

[Sharon McMahon]

I don't know how much you're going to love it. I sure don't talk about the very first option. Okay, here we go. It's a woman in a long skirt at the edge of a cliff.

[Craig]

The edge of a cliff. You know, I don't want to say it, but it does seem like. It seems questionable, like she's about to.

[Sharon McMahon]

Jump, does it not?

[Craig]

It doesn't seem that way. It's just really provoking, like she's going to jump. That's not fair.

[Sharon McMahon]

She's going to get pushed. Something bad's going to happen to her.

[Craig]

She's in danger, and I don't like that.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. So then also, as part of the same group, they sent this option.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

Which, as you'll notice at the bottom, Craig is a man fishing. Do you see him?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. There's no. But nobody in the book is fishing. No one at all is fishing. There's no fishing tie in a fisherman. No, it's an oil painting.

[Craig]

Yeah. To describe it, because people, they can't see this.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. Painting of a fisherman near a river with some mountains and a waterfall in the background. And it looks like. And this is what I sent to my editor. It looks like somebody just opened Microsoft Paint or Ms. Word and typed in, like, Helvetica, the Small and the mighty.

[Craig]

Yes, it is. Very Word document. It looks like this is like it should be on a brochure for Yosemite. Trails.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, exactly.

[Craig]

Or poems written by John Muir. Something like that.

[Sharon McMahon]

Precisely. Precisely. It has an element of like, homemade.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

My secretary made this for me. It was published by my university press. Here's the next one. This one is another oil painting with mountains and a blue sky.

[Craig]

Love the mountains.

[Sharon McMahon]

And in the foreground, notice what we have here. We have a man wearing a red life vest and a ball cap who has built a fire and is cooking over the fire with his canoe.

[Craig]

I don't know what era that's supposed to be for. That could be from the 70s. That's someone wearing a red life vest. Like there.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, totally.

[Craig]

Totally. That's fascinating.

[Sharon McMahon]

Again, same Helvetica font.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Here's the exact same painting. They just made the Helvetica font bigger.

[Craig]

Someone said, we don't like the font and they said, we'll make it bigger.

[Sharon McMahon]

They make it bigger.

[Craig]

We fixed it.

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Sharon McMahon]

Here's the next option, which is the Swiss Alps and a waterfall coming down the mountains. I feel like they just typed in to, like, an AI search small and mighty, and what they came up with was, like, a small figure up against mighty mountains.

[Craig]

And mountains was the theme. That's really.

[Sharon McMahon]

Apparently. Yes.

[Craig]

Mountains for sure.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. Notice here there is, like, a tiny little Swiss chalet.

[Craig]

Oh, there is.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I didn't even see that.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, a little Swiss chalet, and that would be a beautiful view.

[Craig]

But why?

[Sharon McMahon]

What about this says unsung Americans?

[Craig]

Craig, I don't think this exists in America. I think this is exclusive to Switzerland.

[Sharon McMahon]

I think it doesn't. It doesn't exist in America. What about this says the small and the mighty Americans. Nothing. Here's the same painting, just with more colors added in the title, of course. And this one looks like they typed it in Times New Roman.

[Craig]

They're not stretching themselves as far as font goes. They're sticking with your basics.

[Sharon McMahon]

There is no, like, oh, wow, what innovative graphic design. It's literally like the painting takes up the entire frame and then you just typed on top of the painting.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's all it is. Yes. Okay, here is the next option. This is like a sunset view of the mountains again, with figures standing on the edge of a cliff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

I cannot tell if the figure on the right is A child or like a dog or what the figure on the right is, but it's small in comparison to the adult that's on the left, apparently.

[Craig]

Adult? Yes. In a red coat.

[Sharon McMahon]

In a red coat on the edge of a cliff overlooking a large valley.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And in the distance, I don't know if you can see this, in the distance is a waterfall. Oh, see the waterfall right here?

[Craig]

Yes. Okay, I see this.

[Sharon McMahon]

More mountains.

[Craig]

Because you have to have a waterfall.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, mountains, cliffs and waterfalls.

[Craig]

Again, following what seems to be the formula for historical fiction. Small character in the front looking at something vast in the distance.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's what we're doing, Mountains.

[Craig]

Yeah. Of course.

[Sharon McMahon]

Here we are. Another, same concept. Mountains in the distance. A boat on the water. You can see there's two figures here near the boat.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

One of them looks to be a child and the other one is standing like they've rolled up their pants and they're wearing kind of old timey clothes.

[Craig]

You know what it is? It's Frodo Baggins. He's getting. He's going to the Shire. Yeah, he's coming back.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's Bilbo and Frodo Baggins.

[Craig]

Bilbo and Frodo are getting on the boat. Yes. Also the typeface is massive on this one. I almost couldn't see anything else. This is just all text.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. It's just like very aggressive. Helvetica really went for it. Uh huh. So after I got these options, I was like, all of these are a no.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Which part of this is like mom getting Valentine's at Target? Which part of this says Target Shopper?

[Craig]

No.

[Sharon McMahon]

Even my agent, who was very diplomatic was like, these seem very academic to me.

[Craig]

Exactly. Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Doesn't this read? My professor wrote this book and made me buy it in College for $120.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

It seemed like what it is. That's not the vibe, Craig.

[Craig]

No, that's not what we're going for. That doesn't read modern. That's what we're trying to pull, something modern here.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's right. Okay, so that's the first. I'm gonna stop sharing. I'm gonna find the next round. We went back to them and we're like, no on the fishing. No on the mountains. No on the boats, on the water. No on the life jackets, the canoes. No on the women standing on the edge of the cliff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

None of those things. Things.

[Craig]

None of that nautical mountain theme is overdone.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. We're not doing any of that. So listening to that feedback and they Thought to themselves, okay, we need something a little bit more modern. She doesn't want the camping. No camping, no outdoors, no fishing. We need, like, more eye catching, brighter colors. That's what they thought to themselves. Okay. And that's. That's not wrong necessarily.

[Indeed Ad]

No.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, yeah. So here's the next option.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's bright orange.

[Craig]

It's bright orange. Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. And there is an eagle on a rock in the middle.

[Craig]

A technicolored rock. It appears to be.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. It looks like an eagle on a rock, like, with its arms outspread, like it's about to take off from flight. But it's all. It looks like it's been graffitied.

[Craig]

I was gonna say either it's been in, like, a paintball battle and it's just covered, or it looks like a statue that was graffitied for sure, is what I'm seeing. Exactly.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, which part of this says the small and the mighty to you? A graffiti eagle. A graffiti eagle.

[Craig]

A graffeegle. I don't know. What? I don't understand.

[Sharon McMahon]

The graffeegle is not the vibe.

[Craig]

It's not what we're going for here.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, here we are. Now we're on to the next thing, which is a log cabin.

[Craig]

Okay. Well, at least they took the note about, you know, nature and not going back towards that.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's a log cabin. There's like a. Even a log cabin for a dog. See the little, like, dog hut.

[Craig]

Okay. Right there. There you go.

[Sharon McMahon]

And this is like a log cabin on some water overlooking some mountains.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So when I said no fishing, no camping, they thought, okay, how about log cabin?

[Craig]

How about more fishing and camping instead of camping? It's a log cabin.

[Sharon McMahon]

Exactly. That's not camping if it's a permanent residence.

[Craig]

They improved a little bit on the font. It's still overwhelming, but it's definitely a little bit. At least they added one piece of color there.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes.

[Craig]

Or something. Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. The next one is the one that a lot of people were like, I really think this one could work. And now when I look back on it, Craig, I am like, thank you, Lord, that I did not choose this cover. Because now I am like, that is the. That's terrible. Okay, here it is.

[Craig]

Okay, first of all, so let's zoom.

[Sharon McMahon]

In on the amount of weapons. Okay.

[Craig]

Absolutely.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay.

[Craig]

So many.

[Sharon McMahon]

We have drums, we have whips, we have cannons, we have a cannon.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. We have torches, we have swords, we have bugles, we have shields, we have spades, and we have spears.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. Over on the Other side. This is like a mirrored image.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Except it has a bucket on this side. This one has a drum. Oh, it does.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Huh.

[Craig]

Another cannon.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. And more guns. And my immediate feedback was, why is it so many weapons?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay. It's a lot of weapons for a book that really doesn't have weapons. It's not a weapon intensive book, Craig.

[Craig]

No.

[Sharon McMahon]

The variety of weapons is so large.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Why is it every available weapon during the Revolutionary War?

[Craig]

It's very like American shields, which are, I don't think are from the revolution, but it's an interesting idea.

[Sharon McMahon]

No. Okay, now let's revisit the figure at the top, Craig.

[Craig]

This is what I really want to get into too.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's a woman in a white dress with a jaunty red cap and a red sash.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Waving an American flag while riding on the back of an eagle and pointing a sword.

[Craig]

It's an image.

[Sharon McMahon]

This became, like, almost the closest contender, Craig. That people were like, no, I love it. It's so eye catching.

[Craig]

It's very aggressive. I don't feel like that's the tone of your book, but it's very aggressive.

[Sharon McMahon]

No, no. This woman is swooping in on an eagle with a sword pointed directly at whoever is beneath them holding the American.

[Craig]

Flag in a very, like, victorious.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes.

[Craig]

Conquering way.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. And I don't understand who she is, what she is doing. I immediately was like, I don't know about the weapons and the lady riding on eagle. And we have multiple different fonts going on, and it's just so many weapons. I was like, okay, I'm willing to talk about this. We need fewer weapons. So I'm going to show you a future version of that, but I want to finish showing you some of these other drafts very quickly. Okay, but let's revisit it. This lady, give me your first impression. When you see this book cover, what are you immediately thinking? Craig?

[Craig]

The thing that comes to my mind is it's a story about a woman who decided to go to war in the revolutionary times. That's what I see, is that she was a fighter and that she led an army. Apparently, on Eagleback is the most literary.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's like going back to Lord of the Rings where some of the people fly. They have eagle weapons.

[Craig]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yep. All you need to add here are some Ents, you know, some trees.

[Craig]

They wouldn't be out of place.

[Sharon McMahon]

No tree. Beard needs to be in the background and, you know, maybe some orcs in the distance. Okay, now compare that to what I have now Craig, A big difference.

[Craig]

I don't even know how you got from point A to point B.

[Sharon McMahon]

Honestly, it's really like, when I showed this figure to people, I didn't show the whole cover, but I showed this woman on the eagle, and I showed it to people, and some people were like, oh, I. I love her. She's so, you know, like, such a badass. And other people were like, what is that? Who is it? What is happening? So, no. Okay, we're going on to the next set of images here. I kept saying these are too old school. These are like log cabins and eagle and shields and acorns. Like, none of these are the vibe. I kept saying, I need something more modern.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And so this next one here is a very modern swoopy cursive font. Very modern on a medium blue background. And it does have a figure in the middle who is sort of ensconced in the flag.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And so this is. You can begin to see the early versions of how we landed on the concept of a figure and a flag. But this figure is obviously a little girl. Yeah, right.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And what I couldn't figure out is, what is this little girl doing?

[Craig]

Looks like she's reaching and grabbing for something, but you can't really tell.

[Sharon McMahon]

My husband was like, is she dancing? Is that what she's doing?

[Craig]

Is she that.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, dancing. But yet there are no children in the book. And I felt like this cover, it's obviously a woman. The font is very swoopy and feminine. And this, to me, said, it's a book for girls.

[Craig]

I will say it gives off romance novel vibes like it's a beach read about historical fiction is what I'm getting from this cover.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, right, Exactly. It's a book for girls. Somebody like you would probably not go into Barnes and Noble and be like, ooh, looks good, right?

[Craig]

No, yeah, Yeah, I agree with that.

[Sharon McMahon]

They also iterated on this same figure, just using different font. And this one was one that my mom loved. And I was like, but the font is so. I hate the font.

[Craig]

Yeah. It just feels out of place.

[Sharon McMahon]

Doesn't it seem like a girl book?

[Craig]

This one feels a little bit less than, obviously, the last one, because this font is a little bit less swoopy.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's still a script. Has a feminine element to it. I don't know.

[Craig]

Yeah. Whatever it is about the way that the cursive is kind of. It has a lot of what that last one felt like.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, here's another round. And these ones made me laugh because some of these are extremely perplexing. Here's the next version where they put a lady riding on a horse, but the horse is red, and white stripes is the flag.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

This reads a little less book for girls.

[Craig]

Yeah. But I don't know why. It's giving me vibes like it's a book of jokes. I don't know why I'm feeling that. Is she wearing, like. She looks like she's wearing a jaunty yellow.

[Sharon McMahon]

She's wearing a crown.

[Craig]

Oh, she is. Wow. And again, is this lady of significance? Is this someone we should know?

[Sharon McMahon]

You wouldn't know who she is, but she is a character in the book.

[Craig]

Okay. So that is something you would learn eventually.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. But you wouldn't know that picking this up.

[Craig]

Got it. Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

And so then they made several other versions with the same figure.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

This one is the blue that I had suggested, which was like this sort of periwinkle blue. And I was like, I like that color.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

But the same lady. And then they also gave me a yellow version. They were like, that's very eye catching.

[Craig]

Oh, wow. It's like.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, it almost hurts your eyes.

[Craig]

It looks like a how to book. I don't know why, but it feels like a how to book.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's almost like home repair for dummies.

[Craig]

I was gonna say it's history for dummies is what I'm seeing. Yeah, exactly.

[Sharon McMahon]

The yellow color. And then again, now we see the full horse. We see the horse's legs this time, and that kind of cracks me up because the horse's legs look hilarious.

[Craig]

It does look ridiculous. It also, the horse is the only thing that's interesting to me on it, which is unfortunate, because I don't think the story's about the horse.

[Sharon McMahon]

No, no, it's really not. Okay. Then we ended up here. Now, this is a very different iteration. This is literally just a picture of a quill in an ink pot.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Would you pick this up at a target, Craig?

[Craig]

No. Again, this looks like a book of, like, old, old poetry. Again, I don't know. And it just doesn't jump at all off the page.

[Sharon McMahon]

No, I would not be like, ooh, looks good.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Fascinating. I would not think that. Now we have two versions with the Statue of Liberty.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

And very, very swoopy. Swoopy modern font. And a very textured orange background. And then we also have this version here, which is an outline of the Statue of Liberty with a flag over the Statue of Liberty and a very, very cursive, very aggressive cursive. Font.

[Craig]

Yes. Very like calligraphy over the top.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Would you want to read either one of these?

[Craig]

I feel like I could see myself walking through a Barnes and Noble and then walking by that book because I don't necessarily want to buy it, but I could see how it's. They think it's good.

[Sharon McMahon]

More eye catching. More eye catching. Yes.

[Craig]

Yeah. But it's not. It doesn't convey, I think, what you are trying to convey.

[Sharon McMahon]

No. And also the book title is the Small and the Mighty, and it's about Unsung American. What is more sung than the Statue of Liberty.

[Craig]

Lady Liberty. Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And also, she's not small.

[Indeed Ad]

No.

[Sharon McMahon]

Right.

[Craig]

By no means, no.

[Sharon McMahon]

So it does not convey this sense of unsung that I was looking for. Okay, now I'm going to show you the version that came immediately before what we ended up with here. Embedded in this group with the goofy horse lady and the quill is this version of the title.

[Craig]

This is just like a little gem.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, yeah. You can see how we stick. We didn't end up sticking with this figure, but we did something very similar to this, just with a slightly different figure.

[Craig]

This is another girl, it appears, but it's not the same. Okay. You chose a different figure, obviously, for the next one. Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

She looked a little too young. She read a little too. Like a 12 year old.

[Craig]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Sharon McMahon]

I did love her. And I was like, there's something about her that I keep coming back to. And it's very, very eye catching.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And you see when you look at the COVID now, you can see that it's the same exact concept. She's just a grown up.

[Craig]

Yeah, she's just grown up. That's fascinating.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, she has a bun in her hair. I love that she could be almost anyone.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, like, you don't look at her and be like, oh, that's Susan B. Anthony. Or like, oh, that's Harriet Tubman. She could be almost anyone. And it really spans a variety of time periods too, because women have been wearing their hair like this and still wear their hair like this for centuries. And she has a little lace collar, which again, women wear shirts like this now. And they Wore them in 1950. And they wore them in 1850.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So I love that she could be almost anyone at any time.

[Craig]

And I love that you talk about, like the multiple stories that you have. It kind of allows space for it to talk about all of them and being unsung. Cause it's not anyone particular that's Right.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's not a famous figure.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. But when you look back on that one, like, they did send other versions. Oh, shoot. I'm missing a couple that I was going to show you. Oh, we don't have time. Okay, maybe I'll pull them up for our next episode. I have a couple more that I have to show you. I'm missing an entire set of images that are like, oh, my gosh, are you kidding me?

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

But for the sake of time, I'll end this here. But looking back on that eagle lady, aren't you like, I'm glad you kept going.

[Craig]

Your perseverance through all of this, of thinking that you got from that image to the one you ended up with night and day. And I don't know how you got there, but I appreciated that you stuck with that because that is not easy.

[Sharon McMahon]

We went from camping dude with a fishing pole and a canoe, near a river with mountains to a really, really eye catching book. Yes.

[Craig]

Genuinely. A book that I would pass by and be like, oh, that's intriguing. What is that like? It's so ambiguous to what it could be that I like. It is engaging and you want to read it. So that's so interesting. Well done. Way to stick with it.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, we're going to end this here for today, but come back next week because I'm going to show Craig the last of the book cover. One of them is like, excuse me, is that a child picking their nose?

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

There is actually a child picking their nose, Craig. I can't believe I didn't pull that one up.

[Craig]

I can't wait.

[Sharon McMahon]

And we're gonna wrap up answering all of your questions about how the small and the mighty got made. Thank you for being here, Craig. Thanks for looking at all my book covers.

[Craig]

It was amazing.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thanks for sharing and we'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to. Here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.