Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 3

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Behind the Scenes of The Small and the Mighty, Episode 3"

Introduction

In Episode 3 of Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, host Sharon McMahon delves deep into the intricate process behind publishing her latest book, The Small and the Mighty. Joined by her audio producer, Craig Thompson, Sharon offers listeners an insider’s look at everything from book cover design to marketing strategies. This episode is a must-listen for aspiring authors and avid readers eager to understand the behind-the-scenes efforts that bring a book to life.

Book Cover Design: A Visual Journey

The episode begins with Sharon and Craig discussing the various iterations of the book cover for The Small and the Mighty. Sharon emphasizes the importance of a compelling cover, sharing her frustrations and eventual satisfaction with the final design.

Sharon McMahon [01:29]: "None of them were it. You would look at them and be like, immediately, no."

Sharon showcases multiple cover designs featuring a lady on an eagle, exploring different color schemes and background imagery. Craig provides candid feedback, highlighting elements that didn’t resonate with their vision.

Craig Thompson [03:03]: "This is it. The untold story of the nose picker."

Despite initial setbacks, Sharon remains steadfast in her pursuit of the perfect cover, ultimately finding a design that encapsulates the book’s essence.

The Publishing Process: Editing and Layout

Transitioning from cover design, Sharon outlines the comprehensive publishing process post-manuscript submission. She distinguishes between story editing, which focuses on content and structure, and copy editing, which ensures grammatical precision.

Sharon McMahon [08:25]: "Ultimately, they go with your final say."

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to formatting the book, including the meticulous creation of nearly 500 endnotes to substantiate her research. Sharon underscores the importance of detailed citations to lend credibility to her work.

Audiobook Recording: Bringing the Book to Life

Sharon shares her experience recording the audiobook version of The Small and the Mighty, highlighting the challenges and nuances of this medium. She appreciates the remote collaboration with her audiobook director, Carlin, who ensured she adhered to the manuscript faithfully.

Sharon McMahon [09:55]: "They are making sure that you are reading the script verbatim."

Craig commends Sharon’s dedication, acknowledging the significant effort required to transition from podcasting to audiobook narration.

Craig Thompson [11:08]: "I am very impressed at your ability to not only write the book, but go back in and read it all as a heavy lift to do."

Marketing Strategies: Reaching the Audience

Sharon delves into the multifaceted approach to marketing her book. She discusses leveraging her existing platform by appearing on other podcasts, writing op-eds, and engaging with media outlets. Emphasizing authenticity, she explains the necessity of clearly communicating the book’s content to attract the right readers.

Sharon McMahon [13:06]: "There is a perspective that only you can bring to the table, and that's why people are reading it, not because they want you to be somebody else."

Sharon also touches upon gathering endorsements from renowned authors to bolster her book’s credibility.

Sharon McMahon [14:08]: "To get somebody like David Graham to write you a blurb is, like, very coveted."

Navigating Bestseller Lists and the New York Times

A significant segment of the episode is dedicated to understanding the dynamics of bestseller lists, particularly the New York Times. Sharon explains that placement is not solely based on sales numbers but also involves editorial judgment and broad market support.

Sharon McMahon [19:47]: "There is an editorial component to it."

She elaborates on the challenges of competing with high-profile authors and the importance of diverse sales channels, including independent bookstores and major retailers like Amazon.

Planning the Book Tour: Engaging with Readers

Sharon unveils her ambitious 14-city book tour, aiming to create a memorable and interactive experience for her audience. Unlike typical bookstore signings, her tour includes live shows at theaters complete with DJs, videographers, merchandise, and interactive games.

Sharon McMahon [21:42]: "All of the venues are theaters. And it is going to be a whole thing."

She highlights the logistical complexities managed by her tour team, from travel arrangements to ensuring high-quality visuals for promotional photos.

Sharon McMahon [24:11]: "We're not doing cinder block wall in a hallway. We need the cute lighting. We need the ring light."

Advice for Aspiring Authors: Embrace Your Unique Voice

Towards the end of the episode, Sharon offers invaluable advice to those contemplating writing a book. She encourages writers to embrace their unique perspectives and stresses the importance of starting the writing process, despite fears of not measuring up to established authors.

Sharon McMahon [28:57]: "Understand that people aren't reading your book because they want you to be David Grant. They don't want you to be Kristin Hannah. That's not why they're reading the book."

Sharon also shares practical tips on overcoming writer’s block, such as setting achievable daily writing goals and leaving off in the middle of a compelling section to maintain momentum.

How to Buy The Small and the Mighty

In response to listener inquiries about purchasing the book, Sharon provides multiple avenues for acquisition. She passionately advocates for supporting independent bookstores and offers alternatives like Bookshop.org for those without access to local indie stores.

Sharon McMahon [32:46]: "If you have an independent bookstore, go there and support it."

Sharon ensures that The Small and the Mighty is available across various platforms, including major retailers and independent bookstores nationwide.

Conclusion

Episode 3 of Here’s Where It Gets Interesting provides a comprehensive exploration of the book publishing journey, enriched by Sharon McMahon’s candid reflections and expert insights. From the creative struggles of cover design to the strategic intricacies of marketing and touring, Sharon demystifies the path to bringing a book to market. Her encouraging words serve as motivation for aspiring authors, making this episode both informative and inspiring.

Notable Quotes:

• Sharon McMahon [01:29]: "None of them were it. You would look at them and be like, immediately, no."
• Craig Thompson [03:03]: "This is it. The untold story of the nose picker."
• Sharon McMahon [08:25]: "Ultimately, they go with your final say."
• Sharon McMahon [13:06]: "There is a perspective that only you can bring to the table..."
• Sharon McMahon [19:47]: "There is an editorial component to it."
• Sharon McMahon [28:57]: "Understand that people aren't reading your book because they want you to be David Grant..."
• Sharon McMahon [32:46]: "If you have an independent bookstore, go there and support it."

Relevant Links:

• Book Tour Tickets: sharonrefan.com/booktour
• Purchase the Book: Available at Bookshop.org and major retailers.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of Episode 3, highlighting key discussions, insights, and actionable advice shared by Sharon McMahon and Craig Thompson. Whether you’re an aspiring writer or a fan eager to read The Small and the Mighty, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the multifaceted world of book publishing.

Transcript

[Sharon McMahon]

Here's where it gets interesting is now available ad free. Head to sharonmcmahon.com ad free to subscribe today.

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[Sharon McMahon]

Hello and welcome. I am delighted that you're here today, and I am so excited to have my audio producer, Craig Thompson, back in the studio. Thanks for being here, Craig.

[Craig Thompson]

Hello.

[Sharon McMahon]

Our last episode, I showed you so many covers. Some of them are just like, are you kidding me? We talked about the lady riding on the Eagle and the number of log cabins and all of the canoes and the mountaintops and the people falling off a cliff. None of them were it. You would look at them and be like, immediately, no. Yeah, immediately, no.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah. It was a very different look than what we ended up with here on your cover.

[Sharon McMahon]

Craig and I were talking last episode where he was like, I would not look at that at the Barnes and Noble and be like, mm, looks great, looks interesting, looks intriguing. No, no. I have a couple other covers I want to show you, and then I want to finalize answering all of the reader questions or all the listener questions that were sent in. So let me humor you, if you don't mind, by sharing just a couple more book covers and then we're going to get into the final questions that people have. Okay?

[Craig Thompson]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

All right. You can see here that they decided that what was intriguing about the previous cover is the lady on the eagle.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes, for sure. They really stuck with that one.

[Sharon McMahon]

So we have several different versions of the lady on the eagle. Some of them are black and red, some of them are black and blue.

[Craig Thompson]

And I'm seeing photos in the background of mighty.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes.

[Craig Thompson]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. In the background of the word mighty are black and white photos of my favorite historic time period. Back in the day.

[Craig Thompson]

Back in the day.

[Sharon McMahon]

Old timey people, as my kids would say. Why are there old timey people in the background? Here's another version. They went hard on the woman on the eagle. They were thinking this is the winning figure.

[Craig Thompson]

And they were not wrong in the fact that it is the most intriguing. I am intrigued, but I think in the wrong way. I don't think it's that what you're going for.

[Sharon McMahon]

I'm intrigued in kind of a train wreck type situation.

[Craig Thompson]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, here's another version. Craig, here you go.

[Craig Thompson]

I don't even know what. I don't even know how to describe what I'm looking at.

[Sharon McMahon]

What is happening.

[Craig Thompson]

Old timey photos that seem to have been developed, but they look like they're kind of burned. But it's technicolor. I can't even describe it.

[Sharon McMahon]

Well, it looks like somebody put an old film filter of like lomo film filter over an old picture where it's like some of its turquoise, some of it's red and it looks kind of degraded.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Let's zoom in on some of the people here. Okay, let's zoom in.

[Craig Thompson]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

First we have unhappy washer woman.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes. Very sad.

[Sharon McMahon]

Then we have unhappy civil war soldier next to two dirty faced children.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah. Everyone unhappy.

[Sharon McMahon]

All 100% unhappy. Now notice here in the lower right hand corner, a child picking their nose.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, I didn't even see that. The very bottom right corner, this child.

[Sharon McMahon]

Has a finger in their nose and their mouth is hanging open.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh. Oh my goodness. The perfect, perfect image for this cover all to themselves.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's the one.

[Craig Thompson]

This is it. The untold story of the nose picker.

[Sharon McMahon]

Unsung Americans right here. Okay, Here are some more of the same images, just in a different format. On the COVID you can see here, all of the people are unhappy.

[Craig Thompson]

Very, very kind of photo book. Someone's cut these things out and just pasted them on.

[Sharon McMahon]

Pasted them onto the COVID Yes. This one they came back with after I said, why is there a child picking their nose? Well, they cut off the child picking their nose.

[Craig Thompson]

Just stick to the side.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes.

[Craig Thompson]

Amazing.

[Sharon McMahon]

But everybody on the COVID is deeply unhappy, deeply sad.

[Craig Thompson]

In the olden times, apparently, back in the day.

[Sharon McMahon]

And then here's the last version where it just looks like an inverted negative.

[Craig Thompson]

Which makes it almost impossible to see. I will say I can barely figure out what any of these things are. That is a way to go, I guess.

[Sharon McMahon]

And now if you saw this book in an airport bookstore. Are you going to buy this at an airport bookstore?

[Craig Thompson]

No. This could be wrong. I feel like they always do, like, serial killer novels in the negative, and that's what I'm seeing. Like, it's like a negative shot of someone, and it looks kind of like that. It looks very scary and creepy.

[Sharon McMahon]

Creepy.

[Craig Thompson]

The tragic stories of. Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Like, these people were. They were small.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, they were small, but they were mighty. Like, that's the creepy creeper vibe, as opposed to anything even remotely, like, hopeful or inspirational. What about the one you're looking on the screen says, like, hopeful?

[Craig Thompson]

None of it. I feel very. Not hopeful.

[Sharon McMahon]

None of it. No, no. And then there's the version with the child picking their nose.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes. Which is a very unique position.

[Sharon McMahon]

How did this make it onto the.

[Craig Thompson]

COVID He's got an unsung story. He wants to.

[Sharon McMahon]

He really does. He changed the course of history, that nose picker.

[Craig Thompson]

His small and mighty actions as a nose picker.

[Sharon McMahon]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, that's it. I'm done subjecting you to all of the previous book covers. Thank you for humoring me that my instinct about the COVID was correct. Y not to pick any of those covers.

[Craig Thompson]

I am so proud of you for holding out over and over and over again, waiting for the right one to come about. I'm very impressed.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you, Craig. It's very kind of you.

[Craig Thompson]

Well, we're here to talk through. Obviously, covers is kind of one of the final stages. You've got your agent, you've got a publisher, You've written your book. You rewritten your book with your editor, and then you've finally found a cover that you like, that you're happy with. Tell me, what comes next. What is the next stage of the process after you have chosen your cover?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. Well, then, you know, you turn in your manuscript. You're like, here, I'm done. Here you go. Then it goes into copy editing, which is a totally different process than, like, story editing and concept editing, where your editor is like, you know what? I'm wondering if we should consider adding some blah, blah, blah, you know, like where they're giving you sort of more general steering the copy editing. They are the people that go through line by line and ensure that the commas are in the right place, the quotation marks are in the right place. And then they send you back the copy edited manuscript for you to go through and approve all of the changes that they have made to the manuscript. And there were a couple where I kind of went back and forth with the copy editor. The copy editor was super nice, but there was one thing that sticks out in my mind where there's a reference to a German shepherd dog. And they wanted to capitalize the G in Germany, but lowercase the S in shepherd. And I was like, no, no, German shepherd is a breed of dog, like standard poodle.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Do you know what I mean? Labrador retriever. But according to some style manual, the word shepherd was not supposed to be capitalized. And I was like, but it really is. Yeah, it is supposed to be capitalized. So that was just one thing that stands out in my mind where we're like, no, we had a difference of opinion about if the word S is supposed to be capitalized. Ultimately, they go with your final say.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, good.

[Sharon McMahon]

So it goes through a lengthy process of copy editing and then the book gets laid out where a graphic designer actually takes all of the text and puts it on the pages so that it looks like a book. One thing about books is that they are left right justified.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

Meaning it goes to both edges with the exception of paragraph endings. So this is part of what makes it easier to skim is the left right justification. So it has to be laid out to look like this with the page number and the title and all that kind of stuff at the top. We also had to go through and create all of the endnotes where you read it and you're like, there's a little number one next to a citation. Well, that all has to be put into the endnotes. There are almost 500 end notes in this book.

[Craig Thompson]

Wow.

[Sharon McMahon]

Citations of where I found things so that when you're reading it, you know that this book was like actually carefully researched. This is not just like my opinion of like, this is really cool story I'm going to tell you. So it has to get laid out. Then when all of that is done, they schedule a time for you to record your audiobook. Oh, and they booked a studio and got an audio producer. And they also, because I don't live in a big town, they also hired an audiobook director. Now often when people go into a studio in say, New York or Los Angeles, the audiobook director just comes into the Studio with you.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

But my audiobook director was available via Zoom.

[Craig Thompson]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

And her name is Carlin and I really, really liked her. And they are listening to you read the entire thing remotely and they interject and stop you as you are reading. And she'll be like, oh, Sharon, it's supposed to say. And then he said quote and you read and he said quote.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

So they are making sure that you are reading the script verbatim.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

With the exception of a couple little things where it's easy to tell on the written manuscript who is talking. But it's not always as easy to tell when you're listening because when it's written out, you can see that, oh, that's a new paragraph. They're referring to such and such person. But when you're listening, you don't know. So occasionally in an audiobook you'll reference a quote slightly differently than the actual text is written.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Anyway, she sat and listened to me read the audiobook along with the audio producer who sat and listened to me read the entire audiobook.

[Craig Thompson]

Wow.

[Sharon McMahon]

When we were done, the audio producer was like, I would have never picked this book up off the shelf. And I gotta say, I really loved it.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, great.

[Sharon McMahon]

So I thought that was really cute that, you know, here he is, this 35 year old guy who just sat and had to listen to me read every single word of this audiobook.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And at the end his impression was like, I really, really enjoyed that.

[Craig Thompson]

So that was fun. Well, and I will say, obviously I was not the audio producer for that because audio books are a whole different beast, totally different animal. So despite the fact that you have a podcast, you're very familiar with speaking on microphones, it is a whole different lift to try to do this. And so I'm very impressed at your ability to not only write the book, but go back in and read it all is a heavy lift to do. And I'm very impressed.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you, thank you.

[Craig Thompson]

That's amazing. So audiobook done. After all of that, I'm assuming you have to step into kind of the marketing role now. You have to start kind of selling your book. Can you talk to us about that process of actually getting your book into the hands of your readers?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. So next, the book actually has to be printed, right? Like the COVID has to get printed, the book has to be printed. There have to be advanced copies made available for reviewers so that even before the books land in warehouses, they have galleys that are like advanced printed copies that get sent to people who might want to talk to you on a podcast or who might want to review your book in a newspaper or for a magazine, they print these advanced galley copies and send those off to people. But then, yes, you have to let people know that your book is available. And, you know, books get marketed in a variety of different ways. Like I said, they go on podcasts, they do TV shows. You know, sometimes people take out ads, they talk about them on their social media, they have conversations with their friends, they post about it, like all of the things. Sometimes they make podcasts about their book sometimes. So there's a variety of ways people might market their book in terms of, you know, if you think about marketing as letting people know that this book is available, clearly articulating who the book is for, who might enjoy it, what the book is about, so that people who are interested in buying it are making an informed decision. You obviously want people to enjoy your book. You don't want people to buy it thinking it's a book about UFOs.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And it's not. That's disappointing, right?

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So you need to be able to tell people what they're in for so that they actually can know what to anticipate and have a good experience. So for me, it has meant things like guest on lots of other people's shows, but also writing op EDS for different publications, doing media appearances for radio stations and TV channels. It's very, very multifaceted. You also, by the way, I didn't mention this, have to ask people to write blurbs for your book.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And that is where you send your book to people who you hope will offer you a review that you can include on the COVID You can see, like on the back cover. I have a whole bunch of blur here of people who have read the book in advance and then have offered me a review.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And these are usually people who are, like, well known in their own sphere. They're, you know, bestselling authors, things like that. So there's a quote on the front cover as well. This is from David Graham, who wrote Killers of the Flower Moon.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

The huge Martin Scorsese movie that just came out last year with Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And to get somebody like David Graham to write you a blurb is, like, very coveted.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know what I mean? To get on the back is like Isabel Wilkerson and Adam Grant and Brad Meltzer and people who are huge, huge, huge bestselling authors. You have to send it to them and hope first of all that they will even open your email yeah. Number two, that they will take the time to read it. And most of the time they say no to these things. And then number three, that they like it because if they hate it, they're just going to say, thanks, I don't have time. Yeah, you know, like that's what a nice reviewer would do. They're not going to offer you a bad blurb. I really thought it was super mediocre. Yeah. So there's just so many pieces. And when you, your work is in social media like mine is, which is very fast moving, fast paced, instantaneous. Here's my reaction to this thing. The publishing world moves at a glacier pace.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

It takes years for these things to happen. To choose a title, to choose a cover, to record the audiobook and print the books, it takes forever in comparison to the world of social media.

[Craig Thompson]

And that's. I feel like you have the unique position of being on social media so you can kind of do some of your own marketing. But I know a big thing for authors is getting on lists, is getting on New York Times bestselling lists and things like that. What does that process look like?

[Sharon McMahon]

So, okay, the New York Times runs their list a little bit differently than some other publications do. Like the USA Today bestseller list is based on straight numbers like who sells the most books. You get to be on the list, and the books are sold in comparison to each other. It's not like a grading scale where it's like if you get above a 90%, you get an A, you get to be on the list. It's not, if you sell 5,000 copies, that's an A grade book, you get to be on the list. It's relative to everybody else. It's like running a race in the Olympics. You might be a super, super fast runner, but if somebody else is faster than you, you're going to come in second or third or fifth or whatever. So it's not just, can you meet some kind of benchmark to get on the New York Times bestseller list, it's what do sales look like in comparison to everyone else?

[Craig Thompson]

Interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

So the competitive titles, meaning books in your same sort of category of hardcover nonfiction, which is my category, what other books are popular and how many do they sell relative to yours? Well, for example, Hillary Clinton has a book coming out the week before me. And Hillary Clinton is a worldwide known name. Right. People all over the world know who she is. She's former first lady, former secretary of state, former presidential candidate. And so she's a huge leg up over somebody like me. So whereas if I were releasing a book in March when her book is not coming out, I might have a better chance of making the list. If that makes sense for a gift that is always on time and lasts a lifetime. You can't do better than Masterclass if you are struggling with what to get. For somebody who as everything, a Masterclass subscription is a perfect gift. Don't just give your loved ones something they want, give them something they want to be with MasterQuest, your loved ones can learn from the best to become their best. I really enjoy listening to it on podcast mode so that I can go about my day or listen in my car. But you can also watch all of the very high quality video productions. Everyone from Malcolm Gladwell talking about how to be a better writer to some of your favorite chefs teaching you how to make cultural dishes at home. I know I personally have been a Masterclass subscriber for years and I have given Masterclass subscriptions to many people as gifts. And Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to MasterCard MasterClass.com Sharon for the current offer that's up to 50% off at MasterClass.com Sharon MasterClass.com Sharon Holiday.

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[Sharon McMahon]

So the other thing about the New York Times is that there is an editorial component to it.

[Craig Thompson]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

Meaning that even if you have great numbers, they are not going to put your book on the list if they don't want to.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

The New York Times is a private business.

[Craig Thompson]

They can do what they want.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. This is not constitutional right to be on a bestseller list of like, but my rights. So there is an element of editorial viewpoint. But there's also one other thing, which is the New York Times wants to see broad support across the market.

[Craig Thompson]

Okay.

[Sharon McMahon]

They don't like to see a person who's super well off just ordering 10,000 copies of their own book.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Which does happen sometimes. People who are very well off just want to add that to their list of, like, I'm also a New York Times bestselling author. They just want to be able to say that. And they can afford to drop 50 grand on this endeavor and just buy a ton of copies of their own book.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

But if they all come from, like, one retailer to the New York Times, that seems suspicious.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So they want to see how many copies are being sold in independent retailers, how many are being sold to libraries, being sold to airport bookstores, to Barnes and Noble, to Target, to Amazon. Of course, Amazon is by far the biggest seller of books.

[Craig Thompson]

Of course.

[Sharon McMahon]

But the broad support in the marketplace also is one consideration of the New York Times.

[Craig Thompson]

That's a fascinating idea that people can't just buy. It's not just about numbers that you have to really show that you're diversified and that people really are interested in talking about it in that discussion, getting your book out there, you are doing a book tour. And as of this moment, I believe there are some tickets left if people want to go and buy their ticket.

[Sharon McMahon]

There's a few tickets left. Yep.

[Craig Thompson]

Just a few. Yeah. But can you tell me about that? Just you're planning a book tour. That's a whole new thing that you've never done before, that process. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, yes. Well, a lot of book tours work in conjunction with local bookstores. And you show up at a bookstore and you do a signing or a little talk. And I have attended those before, and those are amazing, and they're great. And I love supporting local bookshops apps. But I wanted to do something a Little bit bigger than just some bookstores. So this is a 14 city tour. All of the venues are theaters. And it is going to be a whole. It's a whole thing. We have a dj. A DJ and a videographer.

[Craig Thompson]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And all kinds of fun merch and games and a whole presentation and a book reading. So the book tour itself is going to be like five weeks long.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

I'm going to be home right before election day. What I would have preferred to do is go out and do two dates in a week and be like, I'm doing a show on Tuesday and a show on Friday and then come home for a week and then go out and come home. I would have preferred to do that. But because of the holidays, because of Thanksgiving and Christmas, end of the year and election day, I had a very finite amount of time from publication date to election day to make the book tour happen. So there's a whole team that puts together the book tour for you. Because it's way easier to book a bookstore.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And be like, we're having an event on Thursday at the bookstore. There are only so many venues that have a thousand seats in a given city. Right. I'm not Taylor Swift. I don't need to sell out 50,000 seat stadium. Yeah. But neither do I need like a little library conference room. Right. So there's only so many venues that are the right size in any given market. And then figuring out how all of these venues and dates of availability fit together in a puzzle. How will Sharon get from Salt Lake City to San Francisco? How much time does she need to travel across the country? That is all done by a tour team.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah. That makes sense.

[Sharon McMahon]

Who puts all of that together for you? They deal with all of the ticketing interface with the ticketing agents who handle those theaters. So I don't have anything to do with that. But I do have a tour manager who is in charge of making sure none of the wheels come off the bus. That the merch shows up where it's supposed to be, that the DJ's equipment shows up where it's supposed to be. Basically all I need to do is get myself to the locations.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Show up and do the show. All of the other logistics from like who's bringing the fancy microphones to who is bringing the backdrop and the ring light. Light. I insisted on having a ring light for the photos because the people who want to do the VIP tickets and get a picture with you often that's just like some random corner.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

In a random cinder block wall. And we're not having that. We need the cute lighting. We need the ring light. We need the backdrop. We're not doing cinder block wall in a hallway.

[Craig Thompson]

No.

[Sharon McMahon]

We're looking cute in these pictures. So my team is like, really? A ring light? I'm like, oh, yes.

[Craig Thompson]

Oh, yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

A ring light matters. Either pack it or get one delivered via Uber Eats. Somebody's going to Best Buy.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And getting a ring light in each one of these cities, it matters.

[Craig Thompson]

You want to have good photos?

[Sharon McMahon]

It matters. Yeah, that's right. Do you want to post a crappy picture of yourself in a cinder block wall, dark hallway? Are you excited to show that to people? No. No. So there's going to be a ring light and a backdrop, and so it's not my job to deal with that. It's the tour manager's job to deal with setting all of that up.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And dealing with all of that. Yes.

[Craig Thompson]

Well, you have plenty of things to focus on. Just trying to host the show, being there, being on. What are you most excited about? This is your first live show, I believe. What are you most excited about? Doing a live show? Like this or like these?

[Sharon McMahon]

Oh, my gosh. I am just absolutely giddy to think about seeing all of the governors in one spot. You know, like, y'all get to see me all the time. I'm very visible to you. You. You can read what I write, you can look at my face, you can listen to my podcast, you can watch my videos, you can find me on other people's podcast. Like, I am very visible to you. And that's fine. That's great. But I don't get to see anyone else.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Very rarely do I get to see anyone else. Even when I'm on a live or whatever. I can see people's names and read their comments, but I don't get to see their faces. Just the idea of, like, being in a room with 1000 other governor arts is very exciting to me. I am just thrilled at the idea of all of us being able to just be together. I've been doing this for four years, and I've done some speaking engagements here and there, but those are mostly where, like, an employer is subjecting their employees to me. Like, you have to go to this thing. It's not people who are like, oh, my gosh, I gotta take it. It's so exciting. I really want to go. That's a different vibe than, like, it's 10:30am in Ballroom C. Exactly. Very different vibe. So that's what I'm most excited about is, like, just being in the room with everybody and, like, just sort of enjoying the moment of y'all. We are here together for the first time ever.

[Craig Thompson]

Ever.

[Sharon McMahon]

I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but I'm very excited about that aspect of it. I just want to see people. And it's been so many years of you being able to see me and me not being able to see.

[Craig Thompson]

I think that's gonna be so exciting. I've heard a lot of people very excited to go and see you. And I know tickets are going fast in there. Yeah, there's still some available, but I know people are really excited to see that. And I know you put a lot of work into making those really special.

[Sharon McMahon]

So I know it's very exciting. I have to get all my outfits planned, Craig. I gotta figure out what I'm wearing in each of these locations. Cause a videographer is gonna be typing the whole thing. Right. Like, this is forever.

[Craig Thompson]

This is gonna be in a lot of places, so it matters.

[Sharon McMahon]

I gotta look cute.

[Craig Thompson]

You're gonna have that ring light on you, and you're gonna be doing a lot.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's right. That's right. So I got to get my outfits planned. Because I have to travel with all of these outfits. I don't have room in my luggage to just bring a bunch of random stuff that I'm not going to wear. Yeah, I got to get the outfits planned out. And then, like, what accessories am I wearing with each outfit? Like, there's a lot of moving pieces.

[Craig Thompson]

When you have a lot of logistics to doing this.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, yes. In addition to wearing an outfit for each night, it was an evening event in a theater. I can't just show up in my, like, T shirt. I also have media appearances on the different days that I'm in town. So I have to have a separate outfit if I'm going on a local TV station or if I'm doing somebody else's podcast. Like, when I'm in Los Angeles, I'm doing other podcasts. I have to wear a different outfit for those. So in addition to that, I have travel clothes, a daytime appearance clothes, plus my show clothes. So it's a lot of outfits to figure out, Craig.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah. That's going to require some expert packing. That is a lot. I'm very impressed. Well, we've walked through kind of the whole process, and I was trying to think about as far as people that are thinking about writing their first book. Do you have any kind of advice or anything you've learned as you've just walked through this whole process, what would be your words of wisdom? What would be your advice to someone who's considering that?

[Sharon McMahon]

It's so easy to think about, well, I'll never be Hillary Clinton. I'll never be David grand killers of the Flower Moon.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

I'll never be whoever. Whichever writer you idolize. It's so easy to get bogged down in who you will never be. I'll never measure up to them. And what I would encourage people to do is understand that people aren't reading your book because they want you to be David Grant. They don't want you to be Kristin Hannah. That's not why they're reading the book. There is a perspective that only you can bring to the table, and that's why people are reading it, not because they want you to be somebody else.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So that's the first thing, is to let go of this idea that you need to be somebody else in order to be success. And then the other thing is just a practical aspect of this, which is to actually sit down and write things. I can't tell you how many writers have this dream of, someday I'll write a book, but they never actually begin typing.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And this is the thing that I keep reminding myself of. It is much easier to revise something bad than it is to stare at a blank screen.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You can't edit a blank screen, so you are better off writing something down and then coming back two days later and being like, barf. Ooh, that's disturbing. Why would I write such a barfy, gross paragraph? Yeah, that actually is super useful to be like, No, I hate the way I said that. That's boring. That's actually far more useful to be like, what can I do to make it less boring than to just stare at a blank screen and be like, maybe someday I'll write an interesting paragraph. Yeah, Like, I can work with revising something. It's much harder to revise a blank page. So actually, just start writing and you can revise it as many times as you need.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah. Well, and even we talked about what your original idea was actually changed over the course of time to do something completely different. So I feel like once you even start writing, you might realize the thing that you thought was going to be the thing you wanted to write a about will change, and it could be something completely different. And you don't know that until you're revising that.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's right. The best way to find out if something is working is to try it you can't think yourself into writing a book.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

You actually have to do it. It's the doers who get remembered, not the people who just think about doing things. So if you want to actually do something, you actually have to do it. And I know that's not like a very profound thing, but it's. It's really integral to the process. You actually have to do it.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

And use whatever tricks you have to use for your own brain to get yourself to actually do it. Just say, I'm going to write for 15 minutes. I'm going to write one page. I'm going to write 100 words. Whatever it is. Setting a finite goal on that day's writing, I find is very helpful. I'm going to finish three pages today is much more doable than, oh, my gosh, I have to work on my book.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

I have to write a book. That's too many things. I know Eric Larson, for example. Every writer has their own little tricks. But Eric Larson always leaves off for the day in the middle of something he really wants to be writing about.

[Craig Thompson]

Interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

He leaves off in the middle of a sentence, even so that when he comes back the next day, he knows exactly where to pick up.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

He is not staring at a blinking cursor. He just got to finish that sentence. And then once you finish that sentence, you're sort of off to the races with writing more about what you want to write about.

[Craig Thompson]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So stopping while you're in the middle of something good is a trick some people use.

[Craig Thompson]

Kind of break that inertia. You can kind of just stay in the momentum of all of it.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Do we have time for one more question or.

[Craig Thompson]

We have time for one more question, I think.

[Sharon McMahon]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Craig Thompson]

The question. We've got a lot. We're all so excited to get our own copies of the Small and the Mighty. And we are all asking just how we can get our own copies. How can we buy this book that's.

[Sharon McMahon]

So nice that people want to read it. It just feels so exciting to think about somebody else reading it. Obviously, if you have an independent bookstore, go there and support it. Support your indie bookstores. I love seeing that. If you don't have an independent bookstore, it's not convenient for you to get there. You can always shop on bookshop.org they support independent bookstores. Absent of that, just buy it from any retailer that makes you happy. You know, like, if you love getting it on Amazon because it comes so quickly, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to be able to physically go buy a copy, they're carrying it at Target and Barnes and Noble and of course airport bookstores, independent bookstores nationwide. It came out six days ago and it should be everywhere you buy books, and I'm truly so excited for everybody to read it. I'm so grateful for everyone who has supported me through this very long journey. The wait is finally over. The Small and Mighty is out in stores now and I just can't wait to hear what you think.

[Craig Thompson]

Well, thank you so much, Sharon. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we cannot wait to get our hands on this book and to read the amazing stories within. So we're just thankful for all that you've done.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you. Thanks for being here, Craig. Thanks for looking at all of my terrible book covers.

[Craig Thompson]

They're amazing in a bad way.

[Sharon McMahon]

Amazing in a really bad way. Thank you all so much for listening. It is always a delight to spend time with you. I am going to be out on tour for the month of October. You can find tickets on sharonrefan.com book tour all of the cities and tickets are linked there. And of course you can pick up the Small and the Mighty wherever you get your books. I'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon Mc Ban. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.