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The Preamble
Disagreeing Better with Utah Governor Spencer Cox
00:48:45
Sharon McMahon is joined by Utah Governor Spencer Cox to discuss how we can disagree better.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:34]
Sharon McMahon
Here's where it gets Interesting is now available Ad free. Head to sharonmcmahon.com ad free to subscribe today. Hello friends. Welcome. So delighted to have you with me today. My guest is the Governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, and we have so much to talk about, like how to disagree better and why he might consider endorsing a certain political candidate for president. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I am really excited to be chatting with Governor Spencer Cox from the great state state of Utah. Welcome.
- [02:21]
Spencer Cox
Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
- [02:25]
Sharon McMahon
Sharon, it's been a long time coming. I'm glad we finally made it work.
- [02:28]
Spencer Cox
Me too. Me too. Thank you for having me.
- [02:31]
Sharon McMahon
First of all, if people are not from Utah, if they're not familiar with you, can you talk for just a second about, like, how does one even get to be a governor? It seems like a like, did you grow up in the governor's mansion? How do you get to be the governor of a whole state.
- [02:46]
Spencer Cox
Well, I'm the least likely person to ever become governor in Utah. I think. I grew up in a very small town in the middle of Utah in the mountains, a town of 1200 people. And my family's been there since those pioneers came and settled that area, Living on the same farm that my great, great, great Grandfather settled over 160 years ago. Met my wife in high school. She was in the small town next to us. And we decided we wanted to move away from the farms and never come back. And so we did and went to. Went to school. I went to law school back in Virginia at a place called Washington and Le. And we came back to Utah. I worked for a big law firm for a couple years and then realized we had three boys at the time. Realized that we couldn't wait to go back and raise our kids on the same farms that we grew up on and make them as miserable as we were. And, you know, that's what parents do. So moved back, and I'd been back for a few months when a friend of mine came and said, there's a vacancy on the city council. Someone has moved, and we get to appoint someone. And we've been talking about it, and we want to appoint you. We would like you to apply. And I was flattered. And I said, why do you think I would be good at this? And they said, well, we can't get anyone else to do it, and everybody takes a turn. My dad was on the city council when I was a kid, and he said, we have a big legal problem, and we were hoping you could do some free legal work for us because we can't afford an attorney. And so I thought, that sounds great. And I loved it. Loved giving back. I got a chance to serve as the mayor after that, and then as a county commissioner. And then I got elected to the house of representatives in the state of Utah, the state legislature. And I was there for nine months when our lieutenant governor governor resigned unexpectedly. He basically retired. There was nothing nefarious going on, but his term wasn't up. And so the governor got to appoint someone to fill that role. And out of nowhere, Governor Gary Herbert asked me to be his lieutenant governor. And it shocked me. It shocked my family, shocked everyone who knew me. It shocked people who didn't know me. But it was a great opportunity, and I'm forever indebted to him for giving me that chance to give back and serve. And I did that for seven and a half years. And then when he decided not to run again. He asked me if I would and we did. I tell people all the time that I wish there was a requirement if you're going to serve in state legislature as governor, if you're going to serve in congress, that you have first served in local government. I think understanding city councils, mayors, government closest to the people. You know, people ask me all the time, is it hard to be governor? And I said, yeah, it's hard to be governor. It was much harder to be on the city council in my little town because every time I went to the post office or the grocery store, you know, my wife would send me in to grab a loaf of bread. And I was in there for 45 minutes because somebody, somebody had a complaint, somebody had an issue, and, and every decision we made had instantaneous feedback and instantaneous impact. This wasn't like watching the West Wing. And, you know, it's, it's not a game or a movie. It's real, real life. And I will tell you, the best legislators, the best members of Congress I know all served on a city councilor as a mayor.
- [05:47]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah. And they don't have huge staff to insulate them from the incoming fire. You know, like, my son actually did a congressional internship and it's literally the job elect year olds to answer the phone and read the emails and, you know, maybe it makes it up the food chain. But man, on the city council, you don't got a whole office. The 21 year olds, it's you at the grocery store listening to Mary being like, they never pick up the trash and expecting you to do something about it.
- [06:17]
Spencer Cox
That's right. And those calls come in, everybody knows your number and everybody knows how to get a hold of you. And so when you're making a decision, you're thinking, do I want to hear from Mary tomorrow when I do this? Is it worth it? And that matters. I had a guy I worked with, we had a very, very small staff. We had like six people, and three of them were part time in my little town. But one of them always said, every day I get up, I ask myself, is the widow Madsen going to be happy with my job today because she's paying my salary, she's on a fixed income. Her husband died 20 years ago and is my job worth it to her? And man, that left an impact on me when I thought this. Instead of just thinking about a $29 billion budget, which is the budget of the state of Utah, I think about the widow Madsen. I grew up with her daughter. I knew that family Is she going to be okay with what I did today?
- [07:14]
Sharon McMahon
It's such a great way to look at the direct impact that your actions as a leader have. Right? And I think this is sometimes why people get discouraged about politics, whether it's state level politics, national politics. We just feel like our leaders are really out of touch, that they are not serving their communities, that they are there to get soundbites and viral moments and to raise money and to gain personal fame for their, for their, whatever book deals or their, you know, TV shows when they're done in Congress. So often people feel like the people who represent us in government are just really out of touch. But I think keeping in mind that really small start of like, I used to live down the street from this woman. I had to sleep at night knowing that a woman on a fixed income, a single woman on a fixed income, a portion of her fixed income, was paying my salary. And I had to sleep at night, put my head on the pillow knowing that I had done something to serve her versus I raised $40 million from donors who loved my viral tweet. Do you know what I mean? It's like a very different orientation.
- [08:22]
Spencer Cox
It is a different orientation. And I so appreciate you bringing this up now. I fully recognize that you'll have people listen to this in Utah saying Governor Cox is so out of touch. He's all of those things that you just mentioned.
- [08:35]
Sharon McMahon
It's par for the course.
- [08:36]
Spencer Cox
It is par for the course. I will tell you, though, that there, there are things that we can do to help make sure that we're not too insulated, that we are spending time there. You know, one of the things for me is we, we do go back to Fairview, even though we do live in the governor's mansion. We go back, it's 100 mile drive, and we try to get back every other weekend as we can. I'm back on the farm. I'm on a tractor. I'm in the same grocery store with the same people that I grew. So I'm still trying to get that feedback, making sure that we're not too insulated. But I will tell one part of the story that I didn't share. When Governor Herbert asked me to be his lieutenant governor, it was a really hard decision for me. It meant quitting my real job. It meant I wasn't going to leave. I was going to stay in Fairview, which meant driving round trip 200 miles every day to the state capitol. So I spent three to four hours commuting every day for seven and A half years, because I wanted to stay there. I wanted to stay connected as much as I could. But I actually decided to tell him no. I had kind of won the lottery. I wasn't expecting. Expecting it. Nobody was expecting it. And it was my wife that changed it. She said, maybe the fact that we don't want to do this means that we should do it. We need more people who. This isn't their lifelong goal. We won't have the incentive to stay too long. It meant a big pay cut for us as well, and that was healthy. I think it's important that it should be public service. And then when I became governor, I did something that people say is very unwise. I said I would only serve two terms if elected, even though we don't have term limits in Utah, because I also didn't want to change, in that I needed this. This is who I am. I have to stay here forever. I define myself by this position because I think far too often people start to make mistakes because they can't see themselves in any other role. They can't see themselves outside of this. And so they have to do everything they can to hold on to it. That being said, I also believe that we have become a little too cynical. Most of the people that I work with in state government at least, are really, really good people, and they're doing it for the right reasons. It's easy if someone does something we disag agree with, to just say, oh, they're terrible. They don't listen to people. They're out of touch just because I disagree with them. And I think that's led to kind of a cynical atmosphere, a skepticism in our nation. Now, I will say there are members of Congress that are performative instead of substantive. They are doing it for the clicks and the likes in the career after this. And of course, they give everyone else a bad name too. So it's really hard. We have to see politicians as real human beings. They are kind of just like us. But also know that there are some out there who aren't in it for the right reasons. And trying to distinguish between those two is getting harder.
- [11:13]
Sharon McMahon
You're totally right, and I agree with you that there is danger in being too cynical, that anyone who wants to work in a public service position, anyone who wants to work in government, is automatically suspicious that they're all corrupt, that it's all terrible, that nobody's there for good reasons. Most people who are on a city council are not there because their life is more peaceful. In fact, the opposite. They would be way more peaceful if they were not on the city council and were just raking their leaves on a Saturday afternoon. Their lives would be a lot more peaceful if they just worked at an insurance office. There's actually the vast majority of people who serve, especially in state level government, do it because they care about their communities, because they will never become rich and famous from their service. So I think there's a danger in casting aspersions on anyone who wants to work in public service instead of saying this. Actually for many people like you driving four hours a day, taking big pay cuts, you're not alone in that. That there are people who make significant personal sacrifices to serve. I think it's important to recognize that many of these people are making legitimate personal sacrifices only because they care about making their state or city a better place.
- [12:27]
Spencer Cox
What I so appreciate about you and the way you help so many people, including me, learn more about the system of government in which we live, of the civic nature that it is pretty amazing that we the people, decided that we hold the power, that we were endowed by our Creator with these unalienable rights. And we're going to give that power to people for two years or four years or six years and then make them come back and ask us if they want it again. And we're going to elevate people. One of the mistakes we make, I think often with politicians is we endow them with a knowledge that the minute they become elected that they don't have, they're the same people. We're the same people the day after we get elected as we were the day before. And yet we kind of sometimes hold them up on a pedestal in a way and have these expectations of them. And yet it really could be any one of us. There's nothing special about me that should lead me to be here. And I love that we live in a country where anybody can become governor. And I truly believe that anybody can become governor. Anybody can become president. It's rare and it's hard, but it can happen. And anybody can serve on the planning commission in your town. And we need more really good people to serve in those positions. Not glamorous at all, but. But certainly worth it.
- [13:42]
Sharon McMahon
Well, now you're like the head of the National Governors Association. You're not just a governor, you're the governor of governors. How does one get to be the president of the National Governors Association? Is it like all of the other governors vote? Do you all take a turn alphabetically? Like, how does that work?
- [14:00]
Spencer Cox
Yeah. No, thank you. It's a great question, and it's been an honor to really serve in that position. I actually just transitioned out a couple weeks ago, so I just finished my term. And Jared Polis, the governor of Colorado, is now in. And it was fun to hand that off. But the reason I bring that up is you'll notice I'm a Republican, Jared Polis is a Democrat. So there are some rules about what we do. We do rotate Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat every other year. So we have a vice chair who will become the chair of the other party. So I was the chair. Jared Polis was my vice chair before me. Governor Murphy in New Jersey was the chair. And yes, the governors do vote on this, but we don't all vote for. For the vice chair who will become the chair. The parties get to do that. So the Republicans get to choose their vice chair who will become the chair. And then the Democrats choose their vice chair that will become the chair. And so there is some posturing and there is some politicking and some campaigning with our fellow governors. And you kind of find out who's interested, who's willing to do it, and then we work to, you know, to get the support of our team as we move in. What I love about it, Sharon, is it's kind of the last bastion of bipartisan work, work happening in this country at a national level. A strong group. We do learn from each other. One of the cool things about our republic is that we have these laboratories of democracy, these 50 states, and we're competitive. There are rankings that come out every year. I mean, I don't want to brag, but US News and World Report does the comprehensive ranking every year. They look at a thousand different Data points in 70 different categories and rank all 50 states. It's not like the best economy, best education system. It's all of those things. But. But it's. Then they do an overall ranking, and for the last two years in a row, Utah may or may not have come out as number one in those rankings. And so that's. That's where the competition starts. And so I'm patting myself on the back, as politicians are apt to do, as if I get any credit for. I do not deserve any credit for it. We have great people, but I'm telling you, people say they don't look at those rankings, they look at those rankings.
- [16:09]
Sharon McMahon
They totally do. Why wouldn't you?
- [16:11]
Spencer Cox
Yeah, we want our state to be the best. Right? So the other cool thing about governors, unlike, you know, members of Congress, is we actually have to get things Done. We like to say that potholes aren't partisan. Right. And people expect you to do it. Frank Luntz, the pollster, has said that governors are the last adults in the room. And I think that's true. Most of us, there's a couple at the kids table. But most of us, because of that competition, if a blue state is doing something better than me, I'm going to steal their idea. I don't care where it comes from. Right. We're going to do that. And so because of that, the end nga, the National Governors association, gives us a platform to work closely together and share those ideas. And it's been a blast to serve in that role.
- [16:56]
Sharon McMahon
And I love too, that, like the National Council of State Legislatures, they do the same kind of work in that they share good ideas from one state legislature. Like, here's a bill that we introduced that provides whatever, take the bill if you want it, and they can literally just find other pieces of successful legislation to be able to introduce. They're not reinventing the wheel all the time. You know, I think because Congress gets so much attention, because there's an actual C span where we're all, it's like dialing in. Because Congress gets so much attention, we're not paying attention to what is happening in 50 states around the country where actual good work that impacts their citizens and sometimes not great work, but. But honestly, actual good work that impacts the people who live there is happening on a daily basis. And maybe we would be better off if we paid more attention to what was happening in our state capitals and a little less about what's happening in the US Capitol.
- [17:52]
Spencer Cox
Honestly, that is my message to so many people and even the people who say they pay attention at the state legislature level, what happens, I'll give you an example. In Utah this last year, we only meet for 45 days. Our legislative session is the second week in January to the first week in March. I love it. It should be that way everywhere. And you wonder, is that long? Well, it's plenty long. They passed over 590 bills this last legislative session, which is too many if you ask me. But nevertheless, and what I can say is, of those 590 bills, 90% of them passed unanimously or near unanimously. There were like 10 bills that were controversial. And of course they get all of the attention. And so for most people who are trying to pay attention, they read about those 10 bills and they think, man, that Utah legislature is so divided, it's so toxic, it's so hostile, and don't see the 580 bills that pass near unanimously and aren't controversial and are actually working to fix problems. And when I get people involved and talk to them about what's actually happening, it's interesting. It restores their faith in government. They start to understand that, okay, yeah, yeah, there are some controversial ones. I'm gonna look past that and see what else is happening. And they're often surprised that there is good governance out there and that we are sharing ideas and that Democrats in a super majority Republican, Republican state, super majority Republican Senate are passing lots of bills and co sponsoring lots of bills and getting many of their ideas passed as well. So there is a bipartisan workman like relationship and activity that is happening in most of our state houses, but again, sadly, nobody knows who they are and nobody pays attention.
- [19:40]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, state legislatures, just to belabor the point a bit more, are state legislatures are full of workhorses and not show ponies. Unlike some other levels of government that shall remain nameless, which are all about showing off their fancy suits and making speeches for the cameras and having the press conferences. State legislatures are by and large full of workhorses. And the people who are there to get nothing done, the people who are there to just muck up the works, who are there to just cause trouble, they often don't last that long because there are often viable alternatives to them who are willing to serve at a state legislature. So if you want to see actual stuff happening, avert your eyes from the C span, which I do love to watch admittedly and pay more attention to what's happening for 45 days in your state legislature. Most states, by the way, many people don't realize this, don't have full time legislature. They have part time legislatures. Some states have legislatures that meet only every other year.
- [20:43]
Spencer Cox
I'm jealous of this every other year. Very jealous.
- [20:46]
Sharon McMahon
You can pay attention for a shorter period of time at the, at the state level versus Congress, which is, you know, ad nauseam sometimes. All right, I've done enough ripping on Congress. I want to talk a little bit more about one of your initiatives that I find really interesting, which is this concept. And I know you've done some work with Jared Polis on this too, but this concept of disagreement better. And first of all, it's an idea that really resonates with me because I don't think the goal should be get everyone to agree with you. I don't think that should be the goal in politics, in life that's actually, number one, boring. I enjoy a friendly, spirited debate about which JRR Tolkien book is the best. We should have, you know, friendly debates about things. It's boring if we're all just like, I agree, that's not an interesting human existence. So the goal should not be get everyone to agree with you. And the other reason I think that's problematic is that it can be dangerous. It can be dangerous from a national security perspective if you have just a bunch of yes men who are like, whatever you say, whatever you think, we'll go along with it, no problem. Good idea. You need somebody to tell you, actually, no, that's a terrible idea. We're not doing that. We get. We absolutely are not firing rockets at the moon. We can't blow up the moon. That's a terrible idea. We're not doing that. We need people to rein in our more base. Instead, we need people to present ways of thinking about things we've never thought about before. We need to be able to learn from each other. So I'm curious, first of all, what made you want to sort of, like, put yourself out there like this, go national with this idea of we need to disagree better? And then I also want to hear why disagreeing better is important to you.
- [22:29]
Spencer Cox
Sure. Thank you. So, as chair of the National Governors association, every chair gets to have an initiative, and the other governors work with you on it. It's kind of your pet project, whatever you want that to be. And we just realized that we can't do any of the most important things in our country if we all hate each other and if we have dysfunctional institutions, as we're seeing at the national level. And that's kind of where this idea of disagree better was born. It was born out of a time period when I was growing up, when you and I were younger, when the different sides were able to work together. They didn't love each other. They disagreed passionately on things. We often talk about Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill, how friendly they were with each other. They would battle each other, and then they would go out to dinner, and they actually got some big things done, and big things passed. And so we started talking to experts who work in this depolarization space. We become so polarized as a society. Congress has become so polarized. And we found out that there was actual science behind this. Things that we can do to disagree without hating each other and to actually then get things accomplished without compromising our values and our principles. And that really resonated with me. And so that was the driving factor behind Disagree Better. And it was just Interesting to hear these experts as we convened all across the country talking about again, things that we can do is spend time with people who disagree with us, people of different parties who have diverse thoughts from us. It's hard to hate people up close. And so spending time with people who are different than us, I know it's something you advocate for. That's really important. Service is another way that we can depolarize when we're serving our communities, those divides tend to fade away a little bit, which is another really important. My favorite one is how we communicate with each other. Jared Polis and I did an ad together about disagreeing better around the dinner table, how you can have Thanksgiving dinner with your MAGA uncle or your woke niece and not end up hating each other. And there's kind of a magic question that the experts say we should ask or request. And that's when somebody's saying something, you want to fight them on it, to pause and just ask them. Tell me more about why you believe that. It's so interesting what happens when you do that. It kind of lowers the temperature. It shows you're interested in the other person, helps them to actually articulate the why behind that. You may find out that you both have the same why you both believe the same things. I love my country, I love my family. We just go about showing those things in different ways and then they're much more likely to listen to you. So that's kind of how I came to this.
- [24:55]
Sharon McMahon
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- [26:07]
Spencer Cox
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- [26:38]
Sharon McMahon
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- [27:09]
Spencer Cox
Impressed with what you just said about how boring life would be if we all agreed. And the Constitution is the framework that allows people who disagree passionately to act together. It shows us how a pluralistic society is supposed supposed to do that. It's not enough to say, well, if we just get enough votes this election, we'll never have to work with those guys. We'll get to do everything we want. And that's what presidents promise, right? If you elect me, all your wildest dreams will come true. And then it never happens. And so we get disappointed. And so we turn to the next party and try to get them to do the same thing. That's not how any of this works. We will always have to work with those people. Just the framing of those people instead of we, right? It's not them, it's we. And there are good people who vote for Donald Trump, who love America, and there are good people who voted for Joe Biden and love America. And we have to start seeing them as such. Doesn't mean we give up on our beliefs. Doesn't mean we have to be soft and agree with the other side. But it does mean that we have to act together and treat people with dignity and respect. And I'm not that great at it. I fall all the time. I make this mistake all the time, but I'm trying. And we found that 70% of Americans hate what's happening in politics today. There is a hunger for this, and I think you're the perfect example of this. Speaking of books, which are going to be coming out soon and we can't wait. Just your message in your podcast and the reason that so many millions of people are interested in your work, it's because they really don't hate their fellow Americans. They care about our country and they hate the performative divisiveness that they're seeing in Congress and other places. And they're looking for something better. Neither party is offering that we have a market failure. Neither party's offering them something better yet. But some people are starting to figure this out. And I truly believe that our nation, that pendulum's going to start to swing back as people wake up and decide we're not going to do this anymore.
- [29:05]
Sharon McMahon
First of all, thank you. Appreciate you being willing to read my book. That's very kind of you. But also, you know, to like, sort of further this idea that the goal currently in many political spaces is to destroy the people who disagree with you, to destroy the Democrats or to destroy the Republicans, that's a really dangerous idea because there has never been a successful democracy with one party. That's not a thing. Right? We have to have more than one healthy political party. Otherwise we devolve into authoritarianism. Otherwise that gives rise to despots. That has never been a place that a democracy has thrived in, is a place with one political party. So I really think we need to reframe our goals. Why is our goal trying to destroy our neighbors? Why is that the goal? Instead of trying to help our neighbors or love our neighbors, why would the goal be they need to be taken out, they need to be destroyed? Whether you're speaking figuratively sometimes, maybe actually literally. What a shame to have a goal of I need to harm, destroy, eliminate my neighbor, instead of I need to figure out how to serve and love my neighbors, even the people who regard themselves as my enemy.
- [30:35]
Spencer Cox
I wish I could bottle those last two minutes and just inject it into every. Every person. That is it. That's the stuff. That's the message. And I truly believe that our republic is in danger because of that mindset. When I was a kid, I worked with my uncle in a construction company. And I got an opportunity as a teenager to go tear down an old barn. And it was so much fun. I showed up the backhoe. You're knocking walls down. It doesn't take long at all. And, you know, in a matter of minutes, that old barn had fallen to the ground. At the time, I was just giddy, you know, it was intoxicating almost. And it wasn't until years later that I thought about how long it took to build that barn, how those poor, humble people had to save, how their neighbors all came together, and I'm sure months, maybe even years to put all of that together. And of course, the metaphor is similar in everything we do. We know from research that tearing down, destroying that type of vitriol, contempt maybe is the better word for other people is addicting. Just like drugs, just like gambling, just like sugar. It's the same kind of dopamine hit that comes when you're on Twitter or Facebook watching, you know, Fox News or MSNBC and hearing that contempt, that outrage is addicting to us. And so it's a way that people have figured out how to gain power over us is to get us to hate other people and to use those algorithms to get us outraged. Building is hard. Hard building takes longer. Caring about our neighbors, giving that emotional energy to it is hard. It's far more rewarding in the long term. So we need architects instead of arsonists. We need builders instead of destroyers. And again, if you will do that, if you will get to know your neighbors, build them up, serve them, and realize that it's not a zero sum game. Politics does not have to be a zero sum game. We often get presented with false choices. You have to love the police officers or love your diverse neighborhoods. You know, you have to choose between those two. Take any of the most divisive issues facing our country today, and I will show you a false choice where we can do both of those things. And treating people we disagree with with dignity instead of contempt changes everything. And I also think that from an electoral standpoint, from a political standpoint, it's actually better politics being negative, always campaigning negative. Yeah, it works in the short term, but it's no way to build a long term coalition. If we actually serve and give back and bring people together and try to help solve problems even when we disagree, I think we'll be far more successful in the long term.
- [33:09]
Sharon McMahon
You know, one of the people I talk about in my book speaks directly to this, which is a woman who has experienced an incredibly difficult life. She's fired from her job, she's falsely arrested and accused of crimes, and has a variety of experiences that nobody would want to trade places with. And at the end of her life, somebody asks her something to the Effect of what have you learned? What have you learned throughout all of this process? And one of the things that she says is I have learned that I can work with my enemies because they might have a change of heart at any moment. And I was like, what a beautiful way to reframe thinking about working with people with whom you disagree. How will your quote, unquote enemy. And in this case, this woman really did have some enemies. Some people were like, arrest this woman, put her in jail. You know, like, not just a, not just a pseudo enemy of, oh, I vote differently. But what a way to think about this, that I can work with the people who actively hate me because they might have a change of heart at any moment. And how would they ever have a change of heart if we never work together, Right? If they are in their own little silo of, like, all the people who agree that black bears are the best over here and we're all going to collectively hate all the people who love cheetahs the most who are over here, if you never have the opportunity to intermingle, to live in that pluralistic community, how will your quote, unquote enemy ever have a change of heart?
- [34:39]
Spencer Cox
That's beautiful. And that's the stuff, right? The vision behind the founders and the Constitution was exactly that. That we would set up an incentive structure that would require people to persuade the other side or people who disagreed to build coalitions so that they could govern. That was the whole idea behind this divided. And sadly, somehow those incentives are not quite holding up. What we're doing is instead of making the tents bigger in each party, right, come into our tent so we can build this coalition. We may not get as much done as we wanted to, but maybe we'll get 80% of the things done that we wanted to, which is better than nothing.
- [35:20]
Sharon McMahon
That's right. I'm going to give you a chance here to show how one might disagree better. And I know that you've probably already experienced this in your own state because you recently publicly decided to endorse Donald Trump for president. That was a choice you didn't have to make. You could have just voted for him privately and not said anything.
- [35:39]
Spencer Cox
That's true.
- [35:40]
Sharon McMahon
Right? Nobody would have known because your ballot is secret. You could have just, like, kept that one to yourself. So, first of all, I'm wondering, why did you decide to do that? Why did you decide to go public with it? And secondly, what would you say if a constituent was like, listen, I don't know how you could vote for that man because you Know that you have some consciousness, constituents saying that exact thing. I don't know how you could vote for him. How could you do this? I thought you were, whatever, different, better, whatever. How could you do this? So why did you decide to make that public? And what would you say to that person?
- [36:13]
Spencer Cox
Yeah, well, let me just say that within my own extended family, I've had those conversations. Right. Clearly a very polarizing figure in our country today. And what I also hear is how can the guy who talks about disagree better support someone like that? Right. Who has. Has been divisive. That's his style. And I think he would admit that if he were here. Actually had a chance to talk to him a couple days ago for the first time since I became governor. And I think he would have no problem saying, yeah, no, that's not a.
- [36:40]
Sharon McMahon
Controversial statement about him.
- [36:42]
Spencer Cox
Yeah, not controversial at all. So there's a couple things that I think were important. One is, as the governor and as a member of my party, you mentioned the strength of parties and how important parties are. I had said very vocally that I wanted someone else to be our candidate, that I thought it was a mistake to put up the same two people, the same two candidates, candidates from before. And so that's something I've worked really hard for, pushed really hard for. And it became clear pretty quickly that both parties decided they wanted the same two candidates, that we were going to redo this again. Now, the Democratic Party made a change when President Biden withdrew, and that happened after all of this that you're referring to. But that's where we ended up. And so that was the first part. The first part was saying to my party, look, I didn't like it. I get it. I want a strong party. I'm going to do everything I can to help unify us as a party and bring people together. I've also talked extensively about, because he's such a polarizing figure, that question of how can you support. You must be a terrible human being if you vote for someone like that, which is what I said I was going to do. And I think we spend far too much time talking about him and the personality than what it is that's driving people to support someone like him. And that's what's been important to me. We talked at the very beginning of this conversation about getting closer to people and how you can get insight isolated from people. And I grew up in a small town. I grew up on a farm, and I grew up in a place where most people support President Trump and voted for him in 2016 and 2020, even though I did not. And I'm working really hard to try to understand that part of my party, to really get to know them better and to understand what it is that's caused them to want to support somebody who disagrees with me on issues like this, like, disagree. And it's been a really interesting journey for me to get to know them, to get to understand them. I love these people. And so that's part of this journey for me. I'm going to be part of my party. I didn't choose it. I wanted someone else, but my party did. So I'm going to support the nominee. And then my promise to him and my promise to the party was that I was going to work harder to try to bring us together, to try to help us disagree better as a country. And I was hopeful that after his near death experience that night in Pennsylvania, when I was shocked that we again had seen an assassination attempt in our country, one that was just a fraction of an inch away from him losing his life, that that would help. So that's the conversation that I've had with him and will continue to have, that I want to be somebody who helps to bring people together, who does treat people with dignity and respect, and I will encourage him to do that as well. But I totally understand why people are angry with me for doing that, and I understand why people do not want to do that and think it's a mistake to support him or someone like that. As I said before, I think we make a mistake saying that everybody that votes for Donald Trump is an evil, terrible human being. I think my party makes the same mistake saying anyone that supports Kamala Harris or Joe Biden is an evil, terrible, awful human being. And I think if we can try to look beyond those things and look for the good in people who are supporting those candidates doesn't mean they believe everything they do or say. Then we'll, we'll be better off as a country.
- [40:01]
Sharon McMahon
Do you think since the assassination attempt, which is terrible, nobody should be assassinated in the United States? And I was appalled when I saw people being like, oh, they should have just been a little bit more to the left, or you're like, whatever, like wishing that they had been successful. What a horrible thing to think or say this is. Regardless of your opinion on Trump. This is somebody's father, grandfather, husband. We should not wish for anyone to be assassinated, even the person you dislike the most on planet Earth. We should not wish for their successful assassination. That should never be the position. So I was deeply dismayed to see the number of people who said things like that. And I think there had been sort of this hope after this very near death experience that it would change his posture, that it would change his perspective, that it would soften his rhetoric. Do you think he's changed since the assassination attempt?
- [40:54]
Spencer Cox
So I, I think again, people can look at the rallies and the videos and I don't know that there's much of a change there. It seems like for a few days there was. I can tell you that I have a dad who's about the same age as the president. And I think all of us, as we start to get older, change becomes harder. For sure. There's no question he's kind of gone back to playing the hits a little bit. I can tell you in the conversation that I had with him a couple days ago, it was interesting. I was able to see a little different side of him that I didn't know was there just because I had never interacted with him. Very, very kind and gracious. Watched him interact with a family that we're close to here in Utah. Sadly, one of those soldier who lost their lives at the Afghanistan withdrawal at Abbey Gate, a Marine who was a Utah resident. And just to see that kind of tender side of him as he was able to meet, we talked briefly about the assassination attempt that had happened to him. And so I don't think that you're seeing a huge outward change at all. Surely not. He would probably tell you the same thing if he were here. So, no, I don't think we've seen a big change in him. But again, I think it's really important that we have people in my party who are part of the party who help on this issue. We desperately need more Republicans working in the depolarization sphere. He knows this is important to me and the people of Utah know it's important to me. And thanks to you, now lots of other people are gonna know how important depolarization is. Even when my party, and I don't mean to both sides this, but this has been happening for a long time. I tell people all the time, and I truly believe this, that Donald Trump didn't start polarization in our country. Polarization has been happening and deepening for a long, long time. And I'm much more interested in kind of the root causes of that and how we can help people over the next four years. This is not something that's going to happen overnight. But no matter who wins, whether it's President Trump that wins, or Vice President Harris that wins. This depolarization is going to take a lot of work together. And we need people inside the Republican Party who has supported the president but are willing to work on this depolarization effort. And I hope I'm one of those.
- [43:02]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, we can't just be like, well, we elected a leader and now the country's depolarized. No, this is an effort that we all must commit to. If we're waiting for somebody on a white horse to swoop in and be like, I got the plan. Follow the plan. That person's always, always scary. You know what I mean? Like, the plan is never going to lead you where you think it's going to. We cannot look to somebody on a white horse to save us from this. It really begins with each one of us. So I have one final question. I know we could probably keep talking for multiple hours here, but one of the things that I hear, and I bet you hear this, too, is that people look around and they feel like this whole situation is hopeless. It's all giant, hopeless mess. We're hopelessly divided. Everybody's terrible. And I have long maintained, and I'm curious about your perspective on this, that hope is not a feeling that we wait to. To feel. We're not going to wake up one morning and be like, wow, the birds are outside, are so hopeful. I'm doing my hopeful meditations and I'm drinking my hopeful energy drink. And like, I feel so much hope that if we're waiting for hope to become a feeling in our bodies, that we're probably just going to keep on waiting instead. I have the viewpoint that hope is a choice that we make, that is an orientation of our spirit, that good things come from people who choose to hope and act accordingly instead of sitting around waiting for hope to descend upon them. And from those actions, those hopeful actions, comes more hope. So I'm wondering what is bringing you hope these days?
- [44:37]
Spencer Cox
Well, you bring me hope, and I've quoted you on hope before, because I love that definition of hope. Hope is action. That friend of mine I mentioned before, Yuval Levin, says that optimism and pessimism are both vices. Optim. Optimism is a vice in that it's this idea that good things are just going to happen, and good things are just going to happen in our country. And the history of human civilization teaches us that good things don't just happen. He says that hope is the virtue that sits between the vices of pessimism and optimism, because hope is action. And that's where I've quoted you, that hope isn't just this good feelings, good things are just, you know, if we just sit around, that's not what hope is at all. Hope is doing. And what gives me hope is when I see people having these conversations, when I see people actually realizing that they don't have to be part of tearing down, they don't have to be part of destroying. When I find a Republican or a Democrat who says to me, I just realized you guys aren't all insane, like, there's good things happening, that is what gives me hope. I don't care who you vote for. I don't care if you vote for Trump. I don't care if you vote for Harris. I don't care if you write in your, your grandma. I don't care who you vote for. What I do care about is how you treat your neighbor. I care about serving and people who give back. I care about people who are willing to dialogue and listen. I'm less afraid of people screaming at each other, although that's not healthy. That's not good conflict, that's unhealthy conflict. But the only thing worse than people screaming at each other about what they believe is when they stop talking to each other at all. Once we just say they're not worth my time to engage in, that's when we've truly lost it. And what gives me more hope than anything, and I see it every day, I see people who are starting to engage, starting to care about their neighbors, starting to serve. Utah leads the nation in service and volunteerism. I'm going to give one more plug. And those things matter. Finding those third spaces that Alexis de Tocqueville talked about that were so important in our country, those institutions that brought people together, faith based organizations, churches, people going together on Sunday and bringing a meal to somebody who's struggling. Volunteer organizations like Rotary clubs and others, bowling leagues, anything that brings people together, taking the politics out of it, finding ways to lift each other up and serve. That's the spirit of America. That's what made us who we are. And it's not just words on paper, it's people. It's this idea that we are better together than we will ever be a part. And you embody that ethos. Your listeners embody that ethos. Thank you so much for what you're doing to lift and to give hope to so many, including me.
- [47:35]
Sharon McMahon
Thank you so much. It was truly a pleasure. I'm so glad we made this happen. I absolutely love so much of what you're doing, and I'm really, really grateful for your time.
- [47:43]
Spencer Cox
Thank you, Sharon. You're the best.
- [47:45]
Sharon McMahon
Thank you so much to Governor Cox for making time for us today. I hope you found this conversation enlightening and helpful. Thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.