Eleanor Roosevelt and WWII

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Eleanor Roosevelt and WWII"

Here's Where It Gets Interesting
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guest: Shannon McKenna Schmidt, Historian and Author of The First Lady of World War II
Release Date: March 24, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Eleanor Roosevelt and WWII," host Sharon McMahon delves into the often-overlooked aspects of Eleanor Roosevelt's role during World War II. Joined by historian Shannon McKenna Schmidt, the discussion uncovers Eleanor's unique contributions as First Lady, her daring journey to the Pacific, and her enduring legacy in shaping U.S. policy and supporting servicemen.

Eleanor Roosevelt's Unique Role as First Lady

Shannon McKenna Schmidt highlights how Eleanor Roosevelt redefined the role of the First Lady, moving beyond traditional expectations to become a prominent public figure committed to social change.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([04:22]): "She devoted her life just to making the world a better place, to making life better for individuals. And I think in that respect, she's unparalleled."

Unlike her predecessors, Eleanor refused to confine herself to hosting social events and overseeing White House functions. Instead, she leveraged her established presence as a writer, speaker, and political advocate to engage directly with the public and influence policy.

Shannon McKenna Schmidt ([05:04]): "She didn't have to do what she was doing, which is the other thing that always strikes me about her."

The Pacific Trip: Purpose and Challenges

One of the most remarkable endeavors undertaken by Eleanor was her secretive five-week trip to the Pacific during World War II. This journey was multifaceted, serving diplomatic purposes, boosting troop morale, and inspecting Red Cross facilities.

Shannon McKenna Schmidt ([09:27]): "What was she doing in Australia? She set out in secret, for safety reasons. It was largely to thank the troops herself, and also on behalf of the President."

Eleanor faced significant challenges during this trip, including arduous travel conditions. Unlike the bipartisan senators who traveled in comfort, she endured long hours on unpressurized military transport planes, sharing space with mail and relocating personnel.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([11:15]): "She traveled on a military transport plane... It was loud. And she traveled in this plane throughout her trip to the Pacific and back."

Her willingness to endure these hardships earned her deep respect from the servicemen, who saw her as genuinely sharing in their struggles.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([28:11]): "By the time Eleanor goes to the Pacific, she's 10 years into her time as First Lady... she didn't complain. She knows how to rough it."

Influence on U.S. Policies: The GI Bill

Eleanor's interactions with servicemen during her Pacific trip had a profound impact on U.S. policy, particularly in advocating for the GI Bill of Rights. She recognized the immediate needs of returning veterans, pushing for swift implementation to support those who had sacrificed so much.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([18:46]): "She really brought public pressure to bear to help get the GI Bill of Rights passed. Her thinking and what she conveys to the nation is that the men need this now."

Her advocacy ensured that veterans received necessary support, emphasizing that their contributions warranted immediate and substantial assistance.

Personal Motivation and Experiences

Eleanor's dedication was deeply personal, fueled by her role as a mother to four sons serving in the military. This personal connection heightened her empathy and commitment to improving the lives of servicemen.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([42:15]): "She had four sons in uniform across various branches of the service, so this was very personal to her. None of this was abstract for her."

Her experiences visiting hospitals and witnessing the horrors of war firsthand left an indelible mark on her, driving her unwavering pursuit of peace and support for veterans.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([24:28]): "She was seeing a lot. She met men with all kinds of injuries... and she really saw all of the war."

Legacy and Enduring Impact

Eleanor Roosevelt's leadership during World War II set a precedent for future First Ladies and female leaders. Her relentless pursuit of social justice, empathy for servicemen, and strategic policy advocacy left a lasting legacy that continues to inspire.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([45:35]): "This book illustrates so much of what we already admire about Eleanor Roosevelt... her courage, her compassion, her ability to connect with people on an individual level."

Shannon McKenna Schmidt emphasizes that Eleanor's actions during the war not only influenced immediate policies but also shaped the role of women in public life, paving the way for future generations to engage actively in societal issues.

Shannon McKenna Schmidt ([41:18]): "She's like the biggest advocate... because of all of the platforms that she had."

Conclusion

The episode "Eleanor Roosevelt and WWII" offers a comprehensive exploration of Eleanor Roosevelt's extraordinary contributions during a pivotal moment in history. Through Shannon McKenna Schmidt's insightful research and storytelling, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for Eleanor's unwavering dedication, strategic influence, and compassionate leadership that significantly impacted both the war effort and post-war America.

Eleanor Roosevelt ([46:21]): "So I would love for them to take away a picture of her that's even more inspiring than what we already know... her courage, her compassion, her ability to connect with people on an individual level."

Sharon McMahon concludes by encouraging listeners to read Shannon's book, The First Lady of World War II, to further understand and appreciate Eleanor Roosevelt's remarkable legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([04:22]): "She devoted her life just to making the world a better place, to making life better for individuals."

• Shannon McKenna Schmidt ([05:04]): "She didn't have to do what she was doing, which is the other thing that always strikes me about her."

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([11:15]): "She traveled on a military transport plane... It was loud. And she traveled in this plane throughout her trip to the Pacific and back."

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([18:46]): "She really brought public pressure to bear to help get the GI Bill of Rights passed."

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([42:15]): "She had four sons in uniform across various branches of the service, so this was very personal to her."

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([45:35]): "This book illustrates so much of what we already admire about Eleanor Roosevelt... her courage, her compassion, her ability to connect with people on an individual level."

• Shannon McKenna Schmidt ([41:18]): "She's like the biggest advocate... because of all of the platforms that she had."

• Eleanor Roosevelt ([46:21]): "So I would love for them to take away a picture of her that's even more inspiring than what we already know..."

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This episode serves as a compelling testament to Eleanor Roosevelt's pivotal role during World War II, offering listeners an enriching perspective on her extraordinary contributions and enduring influence.

Transcript

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

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[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

I am so excited to be chatting with Shannon McKenna Schmidt today. This story is one that Americans need to hear. Thank you for being here.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Well, thank you so much for having me here to talk about the extraordinary Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

She is extraordinary, and I know that people who listen to my podcast love first ladies. I have done a lot of episodes about first ladies in general, but we actually have not gotten to Eleanor Roosevelt. She's obviously coming down the pike, but I know people are fascinated by her. What about her is enduringly popular?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

You know, I've always been an Eleanor Roosevelt admirer, and there was truly no one else like her. And she devoted her life just to making the world a better place, to making life better for individuals. And I think in that respect, she's unparalleled and she didn't have to do what she was doing, which is the other thing that always strikes me about her.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

That's right. She could have, just like most other first ladies prior to her, just been unaccessary. She could have hosted teas and ladies luncheons and worn fancy hats and had postcards made of herself that people could purchase. You know, like, she could have just chosen that route.

[Sharon McMahon]

But why didn't she?

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

What about her, in your mind, made.

[Sharon McMahon]

Her want to be different?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

When she first went to the White House in 1933. She was well established as a writer, as a speaker, as a political advocate, an educator and a traveler. And traditionally, first ladies were behind the scenes. They primarily stayed close to the White House, oversaw social functions. And she was very afraid that her identity was going to be absorbed into this traditional role and no part in public life. But like I said, she was very well established when she went into the White House and she couldn't fathom giving any of that up. And instead, what she did was she basically doubled down and she felt that she could best help the President by being out there in the United States taking the pulse of public opinion. And she said that public opinion is the moving force in any democracy.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

That's so interesting. And I'm curious because you've written a fantastic book and I want to get into the meat of this story. The first lady of World War II. But what was her husband's reaction to that? Was he like, yeah, get out there, get after it, I love it. Or was he more in the like, well, Eleanor is Eleanor kind of mentality?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

You know, I say it's actually a mix of both. But no, he actually encouraged her solo roaming, which was unusual for a woman at the time, whoever you are, to be out there traveling without your husband. And he knew that she needed this. And also he benefited from it. Traveling and going places and seeing and meeting people, inspecting New Deal initiatives. It's the way that she gathered information. And then that information she could then use through her own means and platforms to exact change. And it also aided the President and his policy advisors. And FDR said in a Cabinet meeting, once, my missus gets around a lot. And he was proud of her ability to connect with people.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

And also it helped maintain the ruse that he was, you know, a reasonably able bodied man. If a representative of his family was checking it out like the Roosevelts have been here, it helped maintain or potentially helped kind of keep that aspect of that which he wanted to hide, helped keep it under wraps.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes, absolutely. So even if he weren't siloed in Washington because he's the President, yes, it was difficult because of his adult onset polio for him to get around. And so, yes, she was called his eyes and ears.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

What about this story piqued your interest?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Well, I've always been an Eleanor Roosevelt admirer. I also grew up in the Hudson Valley, which is where, you know, she's from and FDR is from. But this book really grew out of my love of travel. And I was reading a collection of Eleanor's column called My Day. And I came across a mention that she had visited Australia during World War II. And it was just a fleeting mention, but it immediately piqued my interest because I had recently been to Australia and New Zealand. And the first thought that struck me was the distance that Eleanor would have had to have traveled to get there and under wartime conditions. And so I was hooked from the start. And then very early on, I came across something that she wrote several years later in one of her autobiographies. She said, the Pacific trip left a mark from which I think I shall never be free. And I found that statement so powerful and haunting. And it really compelled me to discover what she experienced during these five weeks that she traveled around the Pacific.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

The subtitle of your book is Eleanor Roosevelt's Daring Journey to the Front Lines and Back. And the picture on the COVID shows Eleanor Roosevelt and a soldier in front of a wrecked airplane. So what was she doing in Australia?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

So she set out in secret, for safety reasons. It was largely to thank the troops, thank them herself, and also on behalf of the President. It was partly a diplomatic mission to bolster ties with allied nations, Australia and New Zealand. She wanted to see the war work that women were doing in those countries as well. And she also, because she's Eleanor Roosevelt and she has to heap even more onto her plate, she went as a representative of the American Red Cross and she inspected their facilities in the region. So she traveled over the course of five weeks, 25,000 miles. And. And she went through the South Pacific to Australia, New Zealand and Hawaii. And she actually ended up. Her ultimate destination was the island of Guadalcanal, which was still under enemy air attack.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

And this was not during a time when there was a lay flat business class.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

You could.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

There was no, like, now I'll settle in and watch a nice selection of movies while people bring me a heated face cloth. Travel was a lot different.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

It was a lot different. And I like that you bring that up because at the time that Eleanor was in the South Pacific, there was a group of bipartisan senators and they were also traveling around the world inspecting, like, war stuff. But I got to tell you, they went in a posh plane and it seemed like they were joyriding around the world. Eleanor. Meanwhile, Eleanor flew on a commercial flight from New York City to San Francisco. In San Francisco, she boarded a military transport plane which was freezing, not pressurized. It was loud. And she traveled in this plane throughout her trip to the Pacific and back.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

So she flew to Australia on a transport plane.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

She Did. And she talks about, like, sharing space with sacks of mail and a crew that was being relocated to Honolulu. So all throughout the trip, they would do what they were doing. They were taking supplies, they were taking mail, they were relocating personnel. So she was just hitching a ride along on this. And they had one seat for her. They did make a bed for her, but most of the time it was just used for storage.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

Yes. She didn't say, you know, I would like to visit Australia and I would like you to make it happen for me. She went along with people who were already headed in that direction. And that, of course, seems ridiculous today, in part for security reasons, of course. But nobody can imagine a representative, a high level representative of the United States government, Secretary of State, first lady, president, whatever, just hitching a ride on a military plane and being like, sit next to the mail. Right. Like, that seems absurd by today's standards.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

It does. But that's also what I find extraordinary about her. So by the time Eleanor goes to the Pacific, she's 10 years into her time as First Lady. So she's a highly experienced traveler at this point in time, and she's a veteran of the road. She doesn't complain. She knows how to rough it. But even for an experienced traveler like Eleanor, this was further, longer, more arduous than anything she had previously done. And she did experience a lot of what the servicemen were experiencing, like traveling on a military transport plane, you know, sleeping in thatched huts in an army cot in the South Pacific.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

What do you think was the driving force behind this trip? Of course she wanted to gather information, and she wanted to represent the Red Cross and she wanted to represent the President. Well, of course, those things are all true, but what was it about perhaps her thinking that made her feel like, this is something I must do? Because she could have stayed home and represented the Red Cross, you know, at a luncheon in St. Louis, you know, like, she didn't actually have to do any of this, so she had to have some, like, intrinsic motivation.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

She did. I mean, she was enormously driven to contribute to the war effort. And some of the things that she wanted to do didn't work out. This was a trip that really only she could take. She was uniquely qualified to do this. She had the diplomatic skills, the reporting skills, the morale building skills, the people skills. But in the summer of 1943, the war had started to turn both in Europe and in the Pacific in the Allies favor, and she felt that the nation was becoming dangerously complacent. As she said, there are factory strikes. You know, across the nation, people are complaining about food rationing and their hardships on the home front. And this was a way that she could connect the home front and the fighting front and to remind the nation that they couldn't slacken their pace here on the home front at all until the war was won. And that was the only way that their servicemen were going to come home. So I really found it interesting that she was that link. And she had for a decade been going where Americans wanted her to come to see what they were doing all over the country. And with the war, hundreds of thousands of American servicemen were in the Pacific. So she went to them. She wanted to find out what they needed, what they wanted now and after the war. And she really was haunted by the fact that so many young men were being sacrificed in battle.

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Jeff Probst]

I'm excited to share that Survivor's back with our 48th season and alongside it, we're bringing you a brand new season of Bonfire, the only official Survivor podcast. If you are a Survivor super fan, you will not want to miss the deep dive into every episode. And we do it from three different points of view. First, you have me, the showrunner Survivor, answering how and why we made the sometimes controversial, controversial choices we did Then you have Jay Wolf, my co host who represents the superfan asking the burning questions that you are shouting at your TVs. And finally you get the point of view of an all time great Survivor player and their job is to give us the insight into exactly what is happening on the beach. This season we are joined by somebody I can't wait to hear from the winner of Survivor 47, Rachel Lamont.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

I'm so excited to join the On Fire squad to help break down Survivor 48.

[Sharon McMahon]

Join us every Wednesday immediately following the show.

[Jeff Probst]

Listen to On Fire, the official Survivor podcast with me Jeff Probst every Wednesday after the show. Wherever you get your podcast, let's talk about sleep.

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

What did she learn on this trip either that affected her personally or that you can see a reflection of in U.S. policy during the war or afterwards. What exactly did she take away?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

One of the reasons that she wanted to go to the Pacific was to talk with servicemen and one of the things that she constantly asked them was what they wanted and needed after the war. And she really brought public pressure to bear to help get the GI Bill of Rights passed. And her thinking and what she conveys to the nation is that the men need this now. There are already servicemen coming back who have disabilities, who have been wounded so this wasn't something, an abstract that could be passed after the war. They needed it now. She used her public platforms to bring pressure to bear. And then the other thing that she took away from this trip, because she was. She came back and she had lost 30 pounds. And she said that one really sees the results of war in the hospitals. And in that regard, pretty much nobody saw more of the war than Eleanor Roosevelt. She visited miles and miles and miles of hospital wards. She went bed to bed comforting these men. And not just in the Pacific. She had also been doing this in the United States. And all of this really reinforced her determination to work for peace after the war. So not just to win the war, but to work for peace so that this never happened again.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

You mentioned in the book how sharply criticized Eleanor Roosevelt was in this sort of time period leading up to her departure where people were like, why doesn't she just stay home? You mentioned that she's, of course, like the most traveled first lady, and now today, most people have a very, very favorable opinion of Eleanor Roosevelt. She's right up there in people's most favorite first ladies. But that was not always the case when she was actually first lady.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes. So she generated huge controversy. Whatever she did, she generated controversy. And one of the things that I find interesting is that part of the reason she generated controversy and was considered an unconventional first lady was all of this traveling that she did. But she didn't care. She was Eleanor Roosevelt. They were not going to clip her wings. And she actually wrote an article for a women's magazine called how to Take Criticism. She said, you're gonna be damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you may as well do what you want and what you believe in.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

I wonder how much of her upbringing had to do with that attitude. Because, you know, she came from a certain kind of family where she must have felt like, and you correct me if I'm wrong, maybe making a false assumption here. She must have felt like, listen, if I'm not the first lady anymore, then that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, someday I'm not going to be first lady anymore, and I'll go back to doing precisely what I want to do. You're not going to stop me. I was who I am before I got here. I'm going to keep being who I am. And if I leave and. Or, you know, when we leave office, I'm going to keep on doing what I want.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Absolutely. And I use this quote in the book. Her grandmother once said to Her, a woman's place is not in the public eye. And I find that funny now in hindsight, in retrospect. And where I use the quote in the book is as Eleanor is giving a speech to an auditorium full of women at a theater in Wellington. And the reporter, a reporter covering this speech, she says that she seems like a modern day crusader and that her weapons are a microphone and a typewriter. And you know, I just, I found that so interesting because, yes, women in her class, you were not to get your name in the paper, not in the spotlight, the public eye. And I always wonder what her grandmother would have thought.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

She was such a forward thinking woman at a time when there were many women who contributed to the war effort. Some in huge significant ways, of course. Of course, but most did not do so in a really, really public way. In fact, other people, even in FDR's cabinet who were women, some of them made a point of keeping their names out of it. So much so that it wasn't even until recently that some of their real contributions have been uncovered. Because for whatever reason, societal expectations that, like that's not a woman's place, you know what I mean? It is such an interesting thing about her that she was so willing to step into the spotlight.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the things. So again, by the time 1943 comes, she's been first lady for a decade. She has built up all of these platforms that she uses to communicate with the American public. There's my day. She has other writing that she does. She gives speeches across the country, she gives radio addresses. And so she was able to use that platform to be an influence, a leading figure during the war. If she felt that they needed to be chastised for believing Nazi propaganda, then she did it. Telling them not to complain about rationing, not to write complaining letters to their servicemen. But she also had this great standing in the world. She was a world respected figure. And she was asked to give morale raising addresses to women in Sweden and Brazil and other countries. So she was recognized on both of those levels. And her leadership During World War II, I think really was crucial.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

You talk quite a bit about the impact that her visiting the military hospitals had on her seeing exactly what was happening. What kinds of things was she actually seeing when she was visiting these hospitals?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

She was seeing a lot. And one of the things that she did, so she had taken a wartime trip to Great Britain the year before, and while she was there she began this practice and she also did this in the Pacific, is she Kept log books of the servicemen that she met in the hospitals. She recorded their name, their injuries, where they received them, and the name of a family member that she could write to after she returned to the United States. And, you know, I cite one in the book, which is gunshot wound to the face. So she was meeting men with all kinds of injuries. She talks about in particular, how the smell in the burn wards just stayed with her. On her return from the Pacific, she stopped at Christmas island, and the commanding officer in charge asked her to visit one particular soldier who was despondent, and it was impacting his recovery. He had lost a leg during training when a tank overturned. So she really saw all kinds of injuries. And like I said, that that haunted her so much, the fact that this whole generation of young men was being sacrificed to this.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

Yeah, you mentioned that you have a chapter called island of Forgotten Men. And I was like, well, where's that? You know, like, it was very intriguing. Why were soldiers on Christmas Island?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

So this is Christmas island in the Pacific, and Eleanor, her first stop, she touched down briefly in Honolulu. They refueled, and then they were back in the air. So. So her first stop to tour around was Christmas Island. And Christmas island was one of a chain of island bases connecting the United States with Australia. So it's very important for communication, keeping the supply line open. But these men on these islands felt that they were marginalized from the real action in the war and they weren't making enough of a contribution. And FDR specifically asked Eleanor to visit these men and to let them know that he thought about them. He knew what they were doing was important. So the trip had to be kept secret for the first 10 days while she was island hopping through the South Pacific. And once news broke, after she got to New Zealand, media outlets were free to. They were alerted to this. They could report on this. And the GIs on Christmas island had their own publication called Pacific Times, and they published articles about Eleanor's visit. And they said that they felt as if they were an island of forgotten men and that her trip there really buoyed their morale and reinvigorated.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

Where you described the milk run, this phrase really stuck out at me. You're describing how after she spends 36 hours on Christmas island, she heads to Bora Bora. And you say that aircraft traveled a route dubbed the Milk run, along which transport planes carried mail, movies, magazines, and miscellaneous supplies applies to outlying bases. A milk run was a slang term coined by flying crews to describe a routine mission or one where minimal resistance from the enemy was anticipated. As an airman put it, when you didn't get any holes in your plane, it was called a milk run. Just made me laugh, like, oh my. The idea that Eleanor Roosevelt was traveling under those circumstances, you know, where she is on all of these military planes, it really did have to feel to the people she was visiting like she really cared because they knew what it took to get there and to know that she had made that same journey had to affect them.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yeah, I think it absolutely did. And they appreciated what she was doing because, yes, you're right, the servicemen would know better than anyone else, you know, the rigors of what she was doing. And I find it interesting. So she goes to the South Pacific and there's a lot of commanders who are stymied. They don't know what to do with this middle aged woman from the United States, Right. And really, really they should have just left her alone and let her do her thing because she knew what she was doing and how to do it. But many a serviceman that she met changed their minds about her when they saw her hardihood and what she was doing and pouring her who, physical and mental self into this, her heart and her soul. And in their articles, the GIs on Christmas island do recognize how difficult this trip is for her.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

I thought it was interesting that the stuff you shared that I had never really considered about Maori troops and she visits them and they, you know, say she's representative of this great democracy. The United States States did not have battalions of entirely indigenous troops. We certainly did have Native Americans who served In World War II, no question. But I found that really interesting. Can you share a little bit more about that?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

So it was a big deal. She made like three or four stops in New Zealand and one of them was to Rotorua, which is the home of the Maori, the indigenous people of New Zealand. It was this contrast to the US which was not an integrated society. So that was very impactful. I think in the trip as a whole, when she was there in Rotorua, they loved it that the whole day, her time there was about New Zealanders. She wasn't visiting American troops or American Red Cross clubs or anything like that. So they loved it that she spent her day focused on New Zealanders because it was a very big deal that she was in New Zealand and Australia and her visit was on par with royalty. But one of the things that they all loved about her is that unlike visits by royalty, which were governed by formality and much more rigid was she. She was very informal very friendly, very down to earth. And she broke protocol whenever she could. And the newspapers cheered her on, and especially the Australians, they loved that.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

I love that. It's just such a different perspective then. We're used to seeing diplomatic missions from the United States or really from anywhere.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes, like I said, the news, the newspapers would cheer whenever she would leave the entourage, say the official entourage in Australia to go talk with, you know, women working on the grounds of a government building who are part of the land service. One morning on Bora Bora, she was supposed to dine in the officer's mess, and instead she went and dined with the enlisted men. And so she kind of had everybody in a tizzy all down the ranks.

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

Tell us more about what it took to research this story. I would imagine you've dealt with a ton of primary sources.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes. So the most important resource was at the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum in Hyde Park, New York. And they have. It's called the Pacific Trip File. And it is like a time capsule of Eleanor Roosevelt's trip. And I just had to pinch myself that I was sitting there touching documents that she had once touched. There's formal dinner, seating charts. There is a list of the crew who flew her in the bomber to Guadalcanal. There's notes between her and fdr, affectionate notes. And it's just. That was wonderful. And that was really a major source. And also the New Zealand government sent a scrapbook of newspaper clippings to her after the trip, which was also very helpful and important. And then I just started. I described it as like panning for gold and just going through resource after resource and down rabbit hole after rabbit hole to find all of these little nuggets that I put together to tell the story. There's oral histories and memoirs from servicemen, from Red Cross nurses, Congressional records. There's these then top secret Navy dispatches in the National Archives. And they were communications sent in real time as Eleanor was traveling across the South Pacific. So there were all these wonderful resources. And newspaper databases were extremely important because they're giving us a real time chronicle of what she's doing in Australia and New Zealand. And also very, very critical was Eleanor's own My Day column. And she wrote about 40 columns about her time in the South Pacific. And this is almost a real time chronicle delayed a little bit. But we have the first lady of the United States reporting directly to the American public from the ground in the Pacific.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

It's truly extraordinary. First of all, if you've ever tried to write anything, the idea that you have to write columns and constantly come up with new ideas, that alone is a feat in and of itself. But it's extraordinary to think about the first lady of the United States reporting on a war. Now, of course, I'm not saying she was reporting as a reporter where she was like 12 guns and then, you know, blah, blah, blah, but that she was reporting, as you mentioned, in nearly real time about exactly what she was seeing and experiencing in ways that would be disseminated far and wide. It's never happened before or since. It's an extraordinary accomplishment of hers.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

It really is. And I think that one of the things that she wanted to do was also to give American women, American wives and mothers, a sense of what life was like for their servicemen in the Pacific. She also prepared the nation for things, like I said what I found interesting, that she was very forthright with the American public, and when they needed a little shake, she gave it to them. And, you know, and one of the things was she was preparing the nation for the number of disabled servicemen who would be coming back and how they should be treated and what they should do. You know, she told women not to shy away from talking to their servicemen about their experiences. And she was very frank. She told them about the shadowed eyes of the men who had endured jungle warfare. So, yes, all of these things that she's seeing and experiencing, she is able to convey back to the American people because of her many, many outlets that she had to communicate.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

It's also, I think, her encouragement, first of all, to pass the GI Bill even before the war ended. One of the reasons she did that. And of course, there were many proponents of the GI Bill, but she was really, because she had such a high profile, you know, helped galvanize so many Americans behind this idea. The fact that she was traveling abroad and asking people who are currently serving, what do you need? That stands in stark contrast to the way that the United States treats veterans today. You know, where we have incredible numbers of homeless veterans, incredible numbers of veterans who die by suicide. Addiction is rampant with veterans. I don't know anybody who's like, we have. We're on top of our game when it comes to protecting and honoring people who have served. Just that alone says so much about her. And also the mindset of the United States, like, we are going to make sure that you are taken care of because you served. It's really remarkable.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes. And this stems back to her advocacy for veterans after World War I. And she never wanted to see another world war. And then one comes, and from the start, she was concerned for and advocating for servicemen. And I think that they felt seen. And so, yes, so she's in the Pacific and she's asking them what they want, what they need. And their chief concerns were jobs and education. After they came back and one wrote to her, and I believe she put this in my day, and he said what they were most afraid of wasn't dying in battle, but realizing when they got back that they were had been made to be suckers and that their government was going to use them and then not support them and take care of them. She really, I think, was one of their biggest advocates, if not the biggest advocate, because of all of the platforms that she had right before she went to the Pacific. She told people, she's like, go to your local representatives and urge for. For this. You know, tell them what you want, what your servicemen want. And I do. At the end of the day, like the GIs on Christmas island, they felt seen.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

And the fact that she was able to encourage people like, don't look away. These people have seen some bad things. Bad things have happened to them. Ask them about them, talk with them about them. That also stands in stark contrast with subsequent wars the United States has been involved with. You know, I'm thinking specifically of Vietnam, where nobody wants to talk about what they saw and experienced. And that is psychologically so much better to be able to talk about and process what you experienced. The fact that the first lady, who was, you know, even though she had critics, she was so widely and highly regarded, encouraged people like, don't ignore this. Don't just stuff it down and never say anything about it probably contributed to a much healthier GI population, at least mentally, when they returned.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yes, I think so. And that's another great point, is that none of this was abstract for her. She had four sons in uniform across various branches of the service, so this was very personal to her. And after she came back from the Pacific, she was at a press conference, and one of the reporters noted that she looked uncharacteristically tired. And they also said that her eyes seemed worried and like that they had seen much, perhaps too much for an American mother with four sons in uniform. And they said that no other U.S. mother had gotten so close to the war, to the sweat, the boredom of the actual war.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

That's such a great point. She had to be visiting all of these men and picturing their mothers at home because she could easily imagine exactly how it would feel to be one of them. And that had to give her a tremendous amount of empathy that perhaps other people, no matter how well intentioned, could not convey.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and I think that that is one of the things that we talk about. Eleanor Roosevelt, first lady, and she's inspiring everybody around the world, but she was a mother, and she worried about her sons.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

I love the quote that you have at the end of the book that says, today a memorial overlooking the water at Pearl harbor is inscribed with a prayer Eleanor carried in her wallet throughout the war. And the prayer says, dear Lord, lest I continue my complacent way, help me to remember somehow out there, a man died for me today. As long as there be war, I then must ask an answer. Am I worth dying for? Do you know, why she had that in her wallet?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

I think that she always felt like she wasn't doing enough. Even while she's in Australia, she's going, you know, 20 hours a day. She always felt like she wasn't doing enough for the men in uniform, which is ridiculous because she so was. But I think, yes, that was for herself, you know, seeing these young men. I mean, she taught. So she walks through the hospital wards and she's going bed, to bed, comforting these men, giving them a kind word, maybe a joke. But inside she talks about how inside she's burning with resentment that men. And she specifically says men can't sit around tables and settle their differences without sending the youth of all of these nations to die. And that was the ultimate thing for her, is seeing this and witnessing this. And that's, you know, making her really want to strive for peace, was not to have this happen again to another generation of young people. And I gotta tell you, there were a few times when I cried writing this book. And so reading about jungle warfare and what they experienced, and we can only imagine the impact that it truly had on her.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

What would you love at the end of the day, if a reader picks up your book, the first lady of World War II, what would you like.

[Sharon McMahon]

Them to take away?

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

I think that this book illustrates so much of what we already admire about Eleanor Roosevelt. So I would love for them to take away a picture of her that's even more inspiring than what we already know. We see her in a new light as an adventurer and a traveler. But the Pacific trip, I think, to a very great degree does illustrate the things that we love and admire about her courage, her compassion, her ability to connect with people on an individual level, her crusading for a better world. All of that is encompassed in this trip. And I also think that it shows how crucial her leadership was during World War II.

[Sharon McMahon]

I love it.

[Shannon McKenna Schmidt]

Shannon, thank you so much for being here today.

[Eleanor Roosevelt]

Well, thank you so much.

[Sharon McMahon]

Author Shannon McInnis Schmidt's book, The First lady of World War II. Her book comes out May 2, 2023, so pick up a copy or pre order it now. I really think you're going to enjoy it. I'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to. Here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.

[Narrator]

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