Podcast Summary: "On Freedom with Timothy Snyder"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Here's Where It Gets Interesting
• Host: Sharon McMahon
• Guest: Timothy Snyder
• Episode Title: On Freedom
• Description: In this episode, Sharon McMahon engages with historian Timothy Snyder to explore the nuanced definitions of freedom, contrasting positive and negative freedom, and delving into Snyder's five forms of freedom as outlined in his book On Freedom. The conversation addresses the misconceptions surrounding freedom in American society, the role of government, and the impact of social media on democratic values.

1. Introduction to the Conversation (01:09 - 02:22)

Sharon McMahon welcomes Timothy Snyder to the show, expressing her excitement about discussing his new book, On Freedom. She sets the stage by highlighting the relevance of the topic, especially in the context of the upcoming presidential election.

Sharon McMahon:
“I am chatting with the one and only Timothy Snyder and he has a new book out called On Freedom and this is going to be such an eye-opening conversation about what does freedom actually mean.”
(01:09)

2. Defining Freedom: Positive vs. Negative (02:22 - 09:02)

Snyder distinguishes between positive and negative freedom, arguing that Americans predominantly understand freedom in a negative sense—freedom from constraints—rather than as a positive condition that enables the pursuit of good things.

Timothy Snyder:
“Freedom is the condition in which you can choose among those good things and bring them into the world. That's my definition of freedom. So freedom is positive. It's a happy thing.”
(02:22)

He critiques the prevalent notion of negative freedom as a barrier-focused concept, explaining how this perspective fosters anger and a divisive "us vs. them" mentality, ultimately leading to authoritarianism.

Snyder:
“Negative freedom means freedom from. It means you against the world. If you think freedom is just a barrier, it's just about a barrier, then you're angry all the time.”
(03:36)

Sharon reflects on Snyder's idea, highlighting the distinction between viewing freedom as mere absence of constraints versus a presence that fosters virtues and personal growth.

Sharon McMahon:
“Freedom is not an absence but a presence, a life in which we choose multiple commitments and realize combinations of them in the world.”
(06:18)

3. The Five Forms of Freedom (19:12 - 24:22)

Snyder outlines the five forms of freedom discussed in his book:

1. Sovereignty: The ability of individuals to appreciate and judge values.
2. Unpredictability: The unique human capacity for unexpected choices.
3. Mobility: The freedom to change one's circumstances or identity.
4. Factuality: The importance of truth in resisting oppression.
5. Solidarity: The inherent interconnectedness of individual freedoms.

Snyder:
“Sovereignty is about beginning from the beginning and trying to create a person who can make the kinds of choices that you would need to be free.”
(19:12)

He emphasizes that these forms bridge philosophical concepts with practical political structures, advocating for a government that fosters these conditions rather than merely reducing its size.

4. Freedom in Authoritarian Contexts (24:22 - 26:19)

Sharon poses a critical question about the possibility of being free under authoritarian regimes. Snyder responds by acknowledging that while extreme conditions can lead to profound personal reflections on freedom, systemic freedom requires supportive institutions.

Snyder:
“There are certainly very special people in authoritarian regimes who are able to use the extreme situation to theorize, as it were, for the rest of us.”
(24:36)

He cites examples like Vaclav Havel, who found ways to express and understand freedom even while imprisoned, but underscores that true freedom necessitates broader societal and institutional support.

5. Democracy and the Concept of Time (26:19 - 34:24)

Snyder discusses how democracy fosters a sense of political time, encouraging deliberation and long-term thinking, whereas authoritarian tactics often exploit emotions like anger and fear to maintain control.

Sharon McMahon:
“Democracy invites deliberation, insisting that we take the time we need to declare and accommodate values.”
(26:57)

He critiques the focus on efficiency in American society, arguing that it undermines meaningful discussions about values and perpetuates a cycle of fear and anger, which are antithetical to true freedom.

Snyder:
“Efficiency is a fake value. It gets in the way of discussions of values because efficiency basically means the status quo, but faster.”
(32:09)

Snyder elaborates on how political narratives, especially those amplified by social media, manipulate emotions to keep individuals in a perpetual state of fear, hindering the democratic process and personal freedom.

6. Emotional Manipulation and Political Fear (34:24 - 42:14)

The conversation delves into the pervasive anxiety and fear experienced by Americans, exacerbated by media and political rhetoric that portrays the other side as existential threats.

Snyder:
“Our notion of negative freedom comes from the fact that if you're in that position... then the only power that can enfranchise... is the government. And so therefore you'd find freedom as negative.”
(16:58)

He argues that the lack of supportive government institutions leads to increased vulnerability and dependence on negative freedom, where freedom is misconstrued as merely the absence of government interference.

Snyder:
“We have chosen fear over freedom by not having adequate government services.”
(36:04)

Sharon and Snyder explore how this fear-driven approach stifles creativity, cooperation, and the ability to envision a better future, ultimately undermining the very essence of freedom.

7. The Role of Government in Facilitating Freedom (09:02 - 19:12)

Snyder emphasizes that a legitimate government should strive to create conditions that enable true freedom, rather than simply removing barriers. He critiques the American tendency to view government as an inherent enemy, hindering the development of supportive institutions that foster personal and collective freedom.

Snyder:
“A legitimate government is one that acts in order to create the conditions of freedom precisely for everybody.”
(19:12)

He highlights the importance of public services like education, healthcare, and infrastructure in empowering individuals to be free, countering the negative freedom narrative that associates government support with loss of freedom.

8. Hope and Conclusion: Reimagining Freedom (39:34 - 42:14)

In the concluding segments, Snyder conveys a message of hope, asserting that redefined notions of freedom can lead to a more beautiful and collaborative America. He encourages embracing positive freedom, valuing ideas, and fostering institutions that support collective well-being.

Snyder:
“Ideas really do matter. If we can turn that around, I really do believe that things could get much better pretty quickly.”
(39:34)

Sharon echoes this optimism, recognizing the potential for societal transformation through a deeper understanding of freedom and collective action.

Sharon McMahon:
“If the problem is us, then we can solve the problem. If the problem is me, then I can fix it.”
(38:50)

Snyder envisions a future where America fully realizes its potential as a land of the free by addressing internal misconceptions and building supportive institutions.

Notable Quotes:

1. Timothy Snyder (03:36):
   “Negative freedom means freedom from. It means you against the world. If you think freedom is just a barrier, it's just about a barrier, then you're angry all the time.”

2. Sharon McMahon (06:18):
   “Freedom is not an absence but a presence, a life in which we choose multiple commitments and realize combinations of them in the world.”

3. Timothy Snyder (19:12):
   “Sovereignty is about beginning from the beginning and trying to create a person who can make the kinds of choices that you would need to be free.”

4. Timothy Snyder (32:09):
   “Efficiency is a fake value. It gets in the way of discussions of values because efficiency basically means the status quo, but faster.”

5. Timothy Snyder (39:34):
   “Ideas really do matter. If we can turn that around, I really do believe that things could get much better pretty quickly.”

Conclusion:

In this thought-provoking episode, Timothy Snyder challenges the conventional American understanding of freedom, advocating for a more nuanced and positive interpretation that emphasizes personal growth, supportive institutions, and collective well-being. Sharon McMahon and Snyder explore the dangers of negative freedom and the importance of redefining freedom to foster a healthier, more cooperative society. The conversation serves as a compelling call to action for listeners to rethink their perceptions of freedom and engage in building a more enlightened and free America.