← The Preamble
The Preamble
The Most Chaotic Election in American History Was Saved by an Irish Immigrant, and a Conversation with Congressman James Clyburn
00:45:22
A story of grit, rebellion, and the explosive birth of American democracy so wild it makes today’s political chaos look tame. Plus, Rep. James Clyburn connects the turmoil of today’s politics with the untold stories of eight Black congressmen, his childhood growing up in the south, and the enduring wisdom of Septima Clark.
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And right now is the best time to shop because Merit only has one sale a year and it's happening now. Whether you're treating yourself or checking someone off your list, this is your moment to stock up on those everyday staples you'll use down to the last drop. Merit's annual sale is on now until December 1st. Get 20% off site wide plus a gift with purchase with every order while supplies last at meritbeauty.com that's M-E-R-I-T beauty.com meritbeauty.com. Matthew Lyon didn't glide into Congress the way some men did. Carried by polish and pedigree he arrived like a force, an Irish immigrant with a face carved by work and weather, eyebrows angled in permanent skepticism, and the unmistakable air of a man who had clawed his way into rooms never meant for him. Nothing about Lyon was built for deference. At age 15, he boarded a ship bound for the American colonies, willing to subject himself to a long, unpleasant voyage in a ship's hold, tossed on tempestuous seas and blanketed by the rankness of his fellow beleaguered passengers. Sickness was rampant, food was scarce, and those who survived the voyage arrived thin and exhausted. More on that story in a moment. But first, welcome to the Preamble Podcast. If you're new each week you'll hear some of the most interesting stories from our weekly magazine, also called the Preamble. This week we're focused on political parties and have some really interesting stories for you that you can find on the preamble.com in today's episode, I'm speaking with prominent Democratic Congressman James Clyburn. He's held several leadership positions in the party, including House majority whip and assistant Democratic leader. When he won election in 1992, he was the first black congressman to be elected in South Carolina in nearly 100 years. He has a new book out, the First Eight, about the eight black congressmen from his home state that came before him, including a man who had been born enslaved and a black man whose own family enslaved people. As it turns out, James Clyburn knew somebody that I am very fond of. If you've read my book, you'll recognize this name, Septima Clark. I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation. I'm Sharon McMahon, and this is the Preamble Podcast. And now back to our story. Lyon became an indentured servant in a print shop run by Ebenezer Watson. Print shops were hot and loud, the smell and the smudges of ink embedded in every surface. But they were also places where ideas circulated as quickly as rumors. For a boy who had left Ireland during a period of steep economic pressure with few prospects, working for Watson offered Lyon something people of his class rarely had proximity to power. Matthew Lyon learned politics and propaganda at the same wooden cases where he learned to set type. When the Revolution came, he stepped toward it, serving with the Green Mountain Boys under Colonel Seth Warner, Lyon hauled supplies, the New England ice biting his fingers and cheeks, and worked among men like him. All grit, no laudable family tree. When the war ended, Lyon made his way north to Vermont, surrounded by more people like him, whose lives were hewn by the labor of their own backs. He opened a sawmill and then a print shop, garnering enough acclaim to be elected to represent Vermont in the House of Representatives. Matthew Lyon knew that he was never going to be invited to a seat at the table with the genteel Tidewater planters. He was no Jefferson, no Madison. If he wanted space, he would have to take it. In January 1798, Representative Samuel Dana of Connecticut delivered a speech defending the Adams administration's kush to expand the army. The 106 men of the House of Representatives were seated in a semicircle around Dana and his multiple chins, and Lyon did not approve of Dana's Federalist ways. Perhaps in an attempt to mock Dana into silence, Lyon began to laugh, loud enough to halt Dana mid sentence and rudely enough to catch the attention of another Connecticut man, Roger Griswold. Griswold rose from his seat, fury rising in his veins, and delivered an insult he knew would sting a self assured man like Lyon. Mr. Lyon, Griswold charged, had disgraced himself more than once, including being dismissed with ignominy for cowardly behavior during the Revolutionary War. To a Congress full of war veterans, the insult was weighty. To call a man a war coward was not simply a jab, it was an affront to his honor. Lyon wasted no time closing the distance between himself and and Griswold, his eyebrows lowered like a cat waiting to pounce. Lyon spat tobacco juice directly at Griswold, the brown stain blooming like old blood. The chamber erupted. Federalists jumped to their feet and demanded the expulsion of a man such as this one. Democratic Republicans shouted back, howling that Griswold had no business provoking Lyon with such unproven the next morning, the newspapers had their headline the Spitting Lion. Tempers did not cool when the chambers emptied that night. For the next two weeks, the House of Representatives returned again and again to the same question. Should Matthew Lyon be expelled? The Federalists didn't have the necessary 2/3 vote, and every failed attempt to whip the votes only sharpened the bitterness between the factions. On February 14, 1798, a final vote was taken. The Federalists had failed to put together a coalition that would banish the Big Cat from their midst. Griswold was humiliated. The next morning, having decided to take matters into his own hands, Griswold strode across the House floor carrying a cane and brought the weapon down with a thud on Lion's head and shoulders. Hurt and infuriated, lion grabbed a set of large fireplace tongs kept beside the chamber hearth and swung back. The men Grappled and struck at first egged on by onlookers and finally torn apart by colleagues, newspaper readers the next day woke to lurid descriptions of congressman trading blows with government issued tools. Despite several attempts, neither Griswold nor Lyon was punished. The fight over the fate of the men hardened the plaster between the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans, solidifying the partisan lines that would shape the fate of the young republic. In the months that followed, Congress passed the Sedition act, and President John Adams would begin prosecuting his critics. The Sedition act made it a federal crime to publish any false, scandalous, and malicious writing aimed at bringing the President or Congress into contempt or disrepute. Federalists like Adams insisted it protected the nation in a moment of danger while conflict with Europe knocked. But Democratic Republicans saw it as a naked attempt to hold a sharpened knife to their throats. Lyon could not or would not adjust his behavior, publishing an essay in his newspaper accusing President Adams of having, quote, an unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish adulation, and selfish avarice. Federal marshals arrested Lyon, and he was put on trial before a Supreme Court justice who rode to Vermont to hear pending cases. Lyon maintained that the Sedition act violated the First Amendment, but Justice William Patterson told the jurors that Lyon's intent was what mattered. If his goal was to bring the President into contempt, it was a crime. For a few brief moments, Lyon hoped the Constitution would prevail. But the jury deliberated quickly, returning a conviction for the Spitting lion. His punishment, four months in jail and a $1,000 fine plus court costs, an amount that would cripple nearly any American of his class. And yet it was inside that cold, cribbed Vermont jail cell that Lyon became more powerful than the Federalists ever expected. Lyon channeled his anger onto scraps of paper, smuggling essays out through his friends. His supporters distributed his writings across Vermont, and voters began to pick up what Lyon was putting down. If the Adams administration could jail him for criticizing, the president could jail anyone. When the next round of congressional ballots were counted, Lyon, locked behind a stone wall, had been re elected to his seat in the House of Representatives by a comfort of margin. The Congress Lyon returned to in early 1799 was no longer divided between two parties that disagreed on the role of federal versus state governments. Now each party distrusted, resented, and feared what the other might do with its power. Under the original Constitution, electors did not cast separate votes for president and vice president. Each elector cast two votes for president, and the candidate with the most votes became president. While the runner up became vice president. It was the a design drafted in a world without political parties, one where the framers imagined intellectual gentlemen competing for office, but not organizing themselves into rival camps. By 1800, that world no longer existed. The Democratic Republicans planned for each of their electors to vote for Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr, which with one elector withholding his second vote from Burr, so that Jefferson would finish with one more vote and become the nation's third president. But the plan failed. Whether through miscommunication or miscalculation, every Democratic Republican elector cast one vote for Jefferson and one for Burr, leaving them tied on the Federalist side. President John Adams was running for re election with Charles Pinkney, but they received fewer votes out of the gate than either Burr or Jefferson. Adams would not have a second term. The Constitution was clear if there was a tie in the electoral college. The decision of who would become president was kicked to the House of Representatives, where each state's delegation would cast a single vote. Ten weeks elapsed before Congress was scheduled to meet again. For 10 weeks, the infant nation knew not which course the House would chart. Jefferson or Burr. If you had to choose. Men discussed the question at taverns and in the pews of churches. For many, there was only one option. You could be on the side of the Lord, or you could vote for Thomas Jefferson. The president of Yale, Timothy Dwight, wrote that if Jefferson were to be elected, the Bible would, quote, be cast into a bonfire and children either wheedled or terrified would would be united enchanting mockeries against God and our wives and daughters would become the victims of legal prostitution. Another author summed up the choice plainly God and a religious president or impiously declare for Jefferson and no God. And yes, there were a lot of all caps in that sentence. Seventy days after the electors cast their ballots, which resulted in a tie between Jefferson and Burke, the House of Representatives assembled in the new unfinished capitol in Washington. Only a portion of the drafty building, still surrounded by scaffolding and stone, was usable. On the morning of February 11, 1801, the clerk opened the certificates of the electoral college and read aloud the numbers that had hung over the nation for 10 anxious weeks. Thomas Jefferson, 73 votes. Aaron Burr, 73 votes. It was now up to the House of Representatives to decide. The cold air from the unfinished walls shivered down the spines of the men who represented the interests of the 16 states. Nine states would be needed to choose a winner. The roll call of the states began. New Hampshire. Burr. Massachusetts. Burr. Pennsylvania. Jefferson. New Jersey. Jefferson. When the clerk called for Maryland And Vermont. Each state voted divided. The representatives of these states could not arrive at an agreement on whom to cast their ballot, for Jefferson had won eight states, Burr had taken six, and with two states undecided, there was no winner. The House has proceeded to a second ballot, the clerk announced, and then a third and then a fourth. Each time the numbers were the same. As the hours waned, the chamber tightened. Matthew Lyon and the other representative from Vermont, Lewis Morris, knew that as long as they failed to come to an agreement, their state would be silent in the election. The future hinged on a handful of men in a half finished room. The balloting stretched on for seven long days. On the morning of February 17, the house gathered again, the faces of the representatives etched by exhaustion. The Clerk began the 36th ballot. Nothing changed until the clerk reached Vermont, when the voice of Matthew Lyon said, not divided, but Jefferson. Vermont became the ninth state that Jefferson needed to win the election. Maryland too finally went for Jefferson, putting him more decisively over the threshold. Burr would become Jefferson's vice president. While holding that office, he would kill Alexander Hamilton in a duel. When his time in Washington expired, he would hatch a treasonous plot against the country. But that is scarcely a story we have time for now. If anything celebratory passed between the men in that room where it happened, history did not bother to record it. The annals of Congress captured nothing but the tally. No outburst, no applause, no acknowledgment of the moment that had carried the country there. But the truth sat quietly in the record all the same. When the constitutional machinery jammed and the young republic hovered between two consequential futures, the state that helped break the stalemate spoke through Matthew Lyon, the endangered servant who became a printer, the immigrant soldier, the Congressman who spat in a colleague's face, swung fireplace tongs in self defense, and wrote seditious essays from a stone jail cell. The Democratic Republican who favored a fate not tied to the perceived monarchical tendencies of the Federalists and his fellow New England Adams. He was not the kind of guardian the framers imagined, but at the exact moment the Republic needed one, he was the man who stood in the right place on the day it mattered most. Matthew Lyon, unrefined, uninvited, unafraid, helped save the American experiment. Next up, my interview with Congressman James Clyburn on his new book, the First Eight, about the eight black members of Congress who came before him in South Carolina. We talk about that, what's happening in the House right now, and a special connection we share. You know, I've been trying to make the most of my mornings lately. Coffee in hand, a few minutes to myself before the day starts. Lately I've been swapping doom scrolling for something that's actually inspiring, which is Masterclass. I started with Ryan Holiday's class on using ancient wisdom to solve modern problems and it has completely changed how I approached my day. The lessons are practical, they're bite sized and something that I can actually apply. I've even taken insights from the cooking classes with Thomas Keller and used them to try some new recipes for dinner. I mean, honestly, it feels like having a mentor in your pocket. With plans Starting at just $10 a month, billed annually, you can get unlimited access to over 200 classes across business, writing, cooking, science and more. 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Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts, you know what I look forward to most during the holidays? Those quiet, cozy moments. The ones where everyone's home, the lights are twinkling and we finally slow down. That's exactly what Cozy Earth is all about. I got their bamboo pajama set made from viscose from bamboo and it's honestly the softest thing I've ever worn. It's lightweight, it's breathable, and somehow keeps you warm without overheating. I also tried the bubble cuddle blanket and let's just say it has been permanently claimed by my family. The plush, textured feel is perfect for snuggling up by the fire or adding a little luxury to your couch. Cozy Earth just feels different. The quality, the comfort. It's the kind of gift that becomes part of your everyday life. Long after the holidays are over. Plus They've got a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty so you can gift confidently give the gift of comfort that lasts beyond the holidays. This weekend only from Thanksgiving Day through Cyber Monday. Get 40% off@cozyearth.com with code Sharon. It's the best deal of the year. That's code Sharon for 40% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Wrap the ones you love in luxury with Cozy Earth. I'm back now with Congressman James Clyburn. He has a brand new book, the First Eight about the eight black congressmen who came before him in South Carolina. He's also a prominent Democrat in House having served for more than 30 years. Congressman Clyburn, thank you so much for joining me today.
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B
Well, thank you very much for having me.
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It's truly my pleasure. I'm excited to be with you. There is a lot happening in the House of Representatives right now, a lot happening in Congress. How's it looking from your vantage point?
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B
Well, I think that we are beginning to get things moving a little bit. As you know, we've been stalemated for a while. The Epstein files seem to be behind us. Hopefully we can get back to the business at hand and that is funding this government, making sure that people get some stability and hopefully better security in their lives and maybe we'll get back to that business. And now that we've got these vows.
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Behind us, I hear that. I know it's been a challenging couple of years in Congress. And your book that I read with great interest is about Congress, Congress of a different time and a congressional lineage of which you are a part. And it's no surprise to anybody that you view yourself as carrying on an important tradition in the United States Congress. But I want to know, what is it about this topic that made you feel like I need to write this book, I need to write it now and I need other people to know about the people who came before me.
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Well, when I started the book, I was really addressing sort of a thing of interest of mine. My dad made me learn a lot about these people when I was a kid. And so I knew a lot about them. And when I got elected majority Whip, I requested that the Library of Congress Allow me 8 photos of these people. And I put them on the wall of my conference room. And one day a group was in there and one of them looked up at the pictures and asked, who are those people? And I started to Explain who they were. And one of them said, well, I thought you were the first African American from South Carolina. And I kind of playfully said, no. Before I was first, there were eight. But later that day, I said to myself, I think my next book is going to be about these eight people. So I sort of leisurely started working on the book with no real sense of urgency until the 2020 elections happened and the reactions to those elections. And I said to people at the time, I know what's going on here. I knew it from the history I studied and used to teach.
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A
I've heard this song before, and I know how the tune is played.
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B
Absolutely. So I then started over, because I was just writing the book to be informative. I decided it's time to be a little more instructive. And so we kind of rewrote the book and started trying to demonstrate what had happened back after the Civil War and what I saw happening in the aftermath of this election. And then, of course, January 6, 2021, that just did it for me. And so that's why I wrote the book at this particular time and the way that I wrote it, so that people could see that this whole notion that has never been like this before is not quite true. It was like this before. We just run around back in 1876 when it happened.
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A
And even in the last 10 months, there's really been a concerted effort on the part of the federal government to minimize the contributions of African Americans, to minimize the contributions of all types of people of color, of women, to make anything that has been done by somebody apparently other than a white man seem like dei, you know, air quotes, dei. And to cast aspersions on it as though that was not earned, as though that is somehow less than. And I wonder, after having researched and spent so many years writing this book, and again, having learned about many of these figures from your boyhood, what does that feel like to you in this moment? To see all of these sort of rollbacks of. On the teaching of black history, on the minimizing of black achievement, on making anything that is outside of a very narrow set of accomplishments seem like there. It's suspicious. What does that feel like to you?
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B
Fundamentally, it bothers me a great deal because I know from my own experiences. I called my memoir Blessed Experiences. And I said in the introduction to that book I wrote, all of my experiences have not been pleasant, but I've considered all of them to be blessings. And when you are blessed by unpleasant experiences, you use that blessing to do what you can. Hopefully to prevent your children, your grandchildren, all other similarly situated, from making those mistakes, or to do everything they possibly can to stave off these mistakes when you see them happening. And that's what this is all about. We don't have to go all the way back to 1876. We can go back to the end of World War II. When World War II ended, a lot of things happened in the run up to that war, as well as the aftermath of it. When we had the big stock market crash back in 1929 and the government made some significant investments to make sure that people could come back from that catastrophe. Well, one of the things they did was to pass the GI Bill and they also created Social Security. And these two things are very interesting because when Social Security, which a lot of people call the greatest anti poverty program ever put together, when it came online, Social Security did not cover domestic workers and farm workers. And 65% of African Americans in this country were employed in those two areas of the economy at that particular juncture, which meant that Social Security didn't cover 65% of African Americans. And when the GI Bill came online after the war, a lot of African Americans were not allowed to participate in the educational support as well as housing development that came out of that. And so we look at these things and you say we are repeating the same stuff now. Here we go. All of a sudden we'll talk about the election, participation in the government. And you see, looks like somebody took a playbook out of the 1876. I guess it was Martin Witherspoon, Gary, who wrote that edict that a lot of people call the Edgefield Plan that I think Project 2025 mimicked. So I thought it was my responsibility to write a cautionary tale for people to look at and hopefully will be helpful in them understanding what's going on around us today.
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A
So you are definitely seeing strong echoes from the late 19th century Jim Crow era, post Civil War. You're seeing strong echoes between that time period and some of the things that are happening in the United States today.
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B
Absolutely. It is clear to me, and I think it would be to anyone else who really took a hard look at the things we talk about in this book. You know, if you were to just read about the life of one of the eight people in this book was Robert Smalls, who I refer to in the book as the most consequential, I think is what I call him South Carolinian who ever lived. It's clear if you look at the consequences that flowed from his life, escaping from Slavery, Taking that ship, the Planter, which is the most valuable ship that the Confederates owned at the time, delivering that ship to the Union army, becoming the captain of that ship, getting his freedom, and the fact that he turned his monetary gains into great wealth. All of this without any kind of schooling. He received no formal education, becoming a United states congressman for 10 years. And so you look at these consequences and you say, why is it that when I talk about these things today, nobody ever heard of this guy? That wasn't an accident. When I was a student, we didn't have these things in the books that came from the school. My father had brought these books to my attention and these lives to my attention. And so it's amazing when I have these book events, as I had last night over at George Washington University, people telling me they'd never heard these things before. And I think that this book will help them address the issues that we face today.
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A
I love the character of Robert Smalls. I think you're absolutely right. He is such an incredibly consequential American whose name has never been in the bold face in the textbooks. If anything, characters like Smalls, maybe they get a little sidebar, but often not even that. And it's time for a lot of these people that are in your book to stop being the sidebars of history. This is the history that is our shared heritage. This is American history. This is not history that belongs only in the month of February. These are characters from whom we can all learn. And I appreciate that you are, you know, playing a role in making sure that the people who are alive today can keep the memory of some of these individuals alive. And I think many people are probably unaware about the time period following the Civil War, immediately following the Civil War, and the incredible amount of black wealth that was built in the United States about the number of elections that were won, the number of schools that were open, the number of churches that were built, the incredible flourishing of people who were previously enslaved. The trajectory of their community was truly remarkable. And so you talk in this book about these eight people who were elected sort of during that time period who represent South Carolina in Congress. The last of those eight congressmen left office and, correct me if I'm wrong, in 1897. Do I remember that correctly?
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B
That's correct.
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A
And then it took a very long time for you to become number nine. A very long time. Far too long.
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B
95 years.
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95 years for another black person to be elected to represent South Carolina.
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B
Right.
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A
Why did it take 95 years? What was happening during those 95 years.
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B
Thank you so much for getting there. Because that to me is the second reason I changed direction with this book. Because if you look at what happened after that war, the war was over. Black folks were participating in politics, in government, as you said, building great wealth. Of these eight, only three of them had been enslaved. Number three in the group, Robert Brown Elliot, came from Massachusetts and came here with highly educated. Alonzo Renzio, who was number five, very educated. Richard Kane, number four, educated, a minister who came to Charleston from Bridge Street AME Church up in New York. And so a lot of things that we're doing today that we think is something new, these guys were doing it. However, while they're doing all of this, those people that I called in this book redeemers who wanted to redeem the south to these pre Civil War ways who have called the one governor in South Carolina, he wanted to return the formerly enslaved back to as close to slavery as it could possibly be without violating the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments. He said that however, they were so effective at what they did. When John Lewis and others crossed that Edmund Presidents bridge back in 1965 that led to the Voting Rights act of 1965, only 3% of African Americans in the entire state of Alabama were registered to vote. And they did other things as well. And so these what I call in the book, creative devices, like saying, if you want to register to vote, tell me how many bubbles are in this bar of soap, how many jelly beans are in this jar. This is the kind of ludicrous, insulting things that were done in order to nigh the vote to people of color. And the Supreme Court allowed it all to happen with its decisions. Legislatures all over the south passed laws to enforce this kind of separate but equal. That stood until 1954, the Brown v. Board of Education. So that 95 year period saw some of the most violent activities toward people of color, some of the most effective denial of equal protection of the law, of all the things that make for a fundamentally fair society were not only denied, which would be a passive act, but they were created and enforced by the powers that be during this time. And that's what this book is all about. And to say to people what happened then could happen again if we are not vigilant, as Thomas Jefferson is said to have written, that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. And so we intend for this Constitution to apply to everybody in an equitable way. Now, I've emphasized the word equitable. I very seldom use the word equal because I don't think anybody is asking to be treated equally. Our needs are not the same, and so equal treatment is not what's being pursued here. Equity is what needs to be employed.
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A
Yeah, I mean, just by way of illustration, I'm a longtime teacher and we would not say that it was fair that all children would be treated equally in a classroom. It might sound good on paper, but some children have learning disabilities and need additional accommodations.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Some children have medical issues that prevent them from participating in a second grade classroom. In the same way, we would not say everyone gets the same thing and best of luck to you. We would say what do we need to do to make sure that you receive a free and appropriate public education? And that same principle should be applied to participation in democracy at large. What is it that you need to be able to participate fully in our American experiment when it comes to participating in democracy?
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B
Absolutely. Inequity is a legal theory that's applied all the time throughout our process and we ought not to allow ourselves to get hung up on the peg of equality. I have three daughters and often use the three of them as an example of why equality is not what I see because I don't treat the three of them the same way. Their needs are totally different. When you go from 11 years to my oldest down to my youngest, that you're almost in two different generations.
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A
That's right. We'll be back in just a bit with more of my conversation with Congressman Jim Clyburn. Support for the preamble comes from Sixpenny Home is many things. It can be chaotic at times, it can be joyful at times, it can be serene at times. Choosing beautiful pieces to live with is a thoughtful way to turn home into a space you love. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with extraordinarily comfortable slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. Their furniture is completely customizable and made by hand at their own factory using all natural linens and cottons, lofty cushions overstuffed with ethically sourced feathers or recycled fibers, all without the use of harmful chemical coatings. Bottom line Sixpenny furniture is both high quality and high value and since launching in 2017, Sixpenny has been featured in Architectural Digest, the New York Times, Wirecutter, Time and More. And Starting on Wednesday, November 26, you can visit sixpenny.com preamble to enjoy 20% off site wide for their year end sale. That's s I X P-E-N-N-Y.com/Preamble Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. If you've ever felt overwhelmed trying to find the right therapist, you're not alone. ALMA is here to make that process easier, more personal, and more affordable. With a network of over 20,000 licensed therapists across the country, Alma helps people connect with professionals who understand their unique experiences. You can filter your search by what matters to you, like race, gender, specialty and more. And 99% of therapists on ALMA accept insurance. That means you can get care that works for your life and your budget. On average, people using Alma save 80% on the cost of therapy sessions. And with tools like a free cost estimator and the option to schedule free consultations, ALMA makes it simple to take that first step toward real support. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com Interesting to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's helloalma.com Interesting. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose Style Bombas styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas Comfort. Worth calling for. Go to bombas.com audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M B A S.com and use code audio. Welcome back. I'm here with Congressman James Clyburn. This is not the subject of your book, but I am very fond of a very famous South Carolinian.
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B
Septima Clark loved Septim.
- [42:09]
A
Don't you love her? I just want to like if I could have a dinner party, she would be invited again. I have so much affinity for her as a teacher. I love that she, you know, is from your home state and I would imagine she knew at least of many of the people that you write about in this book.
- [42:27]
B
Well, yeah. Well, Septimore, I don't know if you know this or not, but Martin Luther King Jr. S last visit to South Carolina was the July before he was assassinated. He always referred to Septima Clark as the mother of the movement and the media decided it was Rosa Parks. But Septima Clark taught Rosa Parks at the Highlander School down in Tennessee.
- [42:48]
A
Yes, she did.
- [42:49]
B
And so when King came to Charleston that day to do a speech in the afternoon, Septima invited me to lunch with her. And tingling on that day and so the last time I saw Martin Luther King, Jr. Was the day that we sat across the table from each other at Septima Punsett Clock's house.
- [43:11]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [43:12]
B
It was a close friend, and my late wife loved her. We all loved her. But Emily had a very personal relationship.
- [43:20]
A
Yeah.
- [43:21]
B
With Septima Clock.
- [43:22]
A
I love that. Yeah, I love her. After I wrote my book, she's featured in a big section of my book, the Small and the Mighty. She really is such a. An unsung hero in American history. She's an unsung champion for the rights of children. I love that she goes back and gets elected to the Charleston School board after they fired her. That's like, the best just desserts right there. Of, like, now I'm your boss. But, you know, one of the things that I keep thinking about that I feel like Congress could take a lesson from, which is she gets to be an old woman. It's the 70s, and somebody comes to her and says, what have you learned in your long career? I mean, think of what she had seen. She was born in 1898. She's lived through both world wars. She's lived through the entire civil Rights movement. She's lived through, you know, like, the early 20th century was so consequential. And they ask her, what have you learned? And she said, I have learned that I can work with my enemies because they might have a change of heart at any moment. And she talks about how she's seen it happen over and over. I'm not saying there's no justification for, like, a righteous anger about injustice. I think what's important to remember is that Septima didn't say, I let them move into my house. I let them abuse me. I went ahead and let them pass racist laws. I gave them all my money. You know, like, I think people hear the word, like, I can work with my enemies, and they think that they're just going to allow themselves to be manipulated into oblivion and. But I would love to hear from you. You are uniquely positioned to answer this question at 85 years old. Somebody who knew Septima, how does that advice land for you in the year 2025?
- [45:04]
B
I don't know that Septima ever said that to me directly, but I learned that from her. We had something called the Progressive Club, and it was on profit and earned by a man named Esau Jenkins. Septimo was running that school for Esau Jenkins. The editor of the Thompson Post Inquiry was a guy named Tom Waring. And Tom Waring was a very, very conservative, reactionary person. He wrote some of the most scathing anti black editorials that you can imagine. I shall never forget when I went over for a meeting, I can't remember now exactly what it was about. In Esau Jenkins church with Esau Jenkins and Septima Clark was Tom Waring sitting in the pulpit. And I have no idea when he did it, but he had a Saul to Paul transformation. And I will always believe that his interactions when he got to know Esau Jenkins and Seth McLaughlin I think is when he changed his notion about how the world should operate. And I will always give Seth McLeod credit for that. And the talk he gave in that church that day convinced me that you should never give up on anybody. I'm being put to the test today.
- [46:31]
A
Oh, I believe it. It's not easy. Let's not pretend. Septima was out here just walking on gold paved streets. Like what a testament to her character that she was willing to even meet with somebody like that.
- [46:49]
B
Oh yeah.
- [46:50]
A
What a testament to her character that she believed that anyone could have a change of heart, right?
- [46:56]
B
Absolutely.
- [46:57]
A
Maybe we should get some billboards around the Beltway and put up a Septima Clark quote or two because I feel like some of these members of the house could use a little dose of Septima. I feel like it could only benefit us.
- [47:11]
B
Quite true, quite true.
- [47:12]
A
All right. Well, we're almost out of time, but I want to ask you, what do you hope the reader of your book takes away when they close the last page and they are reflecting back on what they learned? What do you hope that somebody takes with them and sort of tucks into their pocket?
- [47:27]
B
I would hope that when you read this book you will see that no matter how dark it may seem. My dad used to say the darkest point of the night is that moment just before dawn. We cannot allow ourselves to become so despair that we lose sight on preparing for the dawn. And it's right there in the scripture for them, that parable about keeping your lamps trimmed and burning so as to be ready when the bridegroom comes. So we cannot sit back and not do the preparation that is necessary. So this book, I'm hopeful that people read this and says, I'm going to learn a lesson from this and I'm going to employ those lessons in order to be ready for next election. Charles will be ready for the next opportunity to present itself, whatever that opportunity might be.
- [48:30]
A
I love that and I love the reference to the Bible verse. I think it's in the book of Matthew where it says keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour. And you know, you can apply that to so many things. It's so easy to think about, like this dark night of the soul that America feels like it is going through in this moment. People feel desperate. They feel despair. They feel as though nothing will change. How am I supposed to fix. Fill in the blank. Terrible thing. But I think it's such an important reminder that you're giving everybody that we cannot let despair keep us from preparing because we do not know the day or the hour that our preparation is going to be called upon.
- [49:17]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:18]
A
I appreciate your time today. I really enjoyed your book. I love chatting with you. I'm so glad to get to hear more about Septima Clark. Thank you very much, Congressman Clyburn, it's been a pleasure.
- [49:27]
B
It's great.
- [49:28]
A
Thank you.
- [49:28]
B
Thank you.
- [49:30]
A
The first aid is out now and it is really an interesting read. You can find it at bookshop.org, your local bookshop, or wherever you buy your books. If you'd like to submit a question for me to answer on a future episode, head to the preamble.com podcast. We'd love to hear from you there. And be sure to read our weekly magazine@thepreamble.com. it's free. And here is your personal invitation to join 350,000 people who still believe understanding is an act of hope. This week we're looking at political parties and have some really incredible articles for you. Like, how did the Democratic and Republican parties come to be what they are today? Are we really as divided as we think? And why are black voters overwhelmingly Democrats? It wasn't always that way. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. If you enjoyed this show, please, like, share and subscribe. These things help podcasters out so much. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. I'll see you again soon.