Podcast Summary:

The Preamble — "The Most Chaotic Election in American History Was Saved by an Irish Immigrant, and a Conversation with Congressman James Clyburn"
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guest: Congressman James Clyburn
Date: November 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of The Preamble explores pivotal yet underappreciated turning points in American democracy. Host Sharon McMahon tells the raucous story of Matthew Lyon—an immigrant Congressman whose audacity and unconventional path shaped the nation’s most chaotic early election. The episode then transitions to a rich conversation with Congressman James Clyburn, delving into "The First Eight," his new book about the eight Black congressmen who served South Carolina during Reconstruction, and drawing strong connections between past and present struggles over civil rights and democracy.

Key Segments and Insights

1. Matthew Lyon: Immigrant Trouble-Maker and Unlikely Kingmaker

(00:54 – 21:45)

• Lyon’s Background and Personality
  • Described as an Irish immigrant who arrived in America rough-hewn, skeptical, and fiercely self-made.
  • Lyon began as an indentured servant in a Connecticut print shop, gaining proximity to political power.
• Path to Political Power
  • Served in the Revolutionary War, settled in Vermont, started a sawmill and print shop, and was elected to the House.
  • Never part of the elite, Lyon “knew that he was never going to be invited to a seat at the table with the genteel Tidewater planters.”
• Congressional Chaos: ‘The Spitting Lyon’ Incident (07:00)
  • Lyon laughed at a speech by Federalist Rep. Dana, was insulted by Griswold, and responded by spitting tobacco juice in his face.
  • This eruptive incident led to brawls in Congress, failed expulsions, and worsened political factionalism.
• Sedition Act and Its Consequences (11:40)
  • Lyon’s opposition to President Adams led to his conviction under the Sedition Act for ‘seditious libel.’
  • Quote: “If his goal was to bring the President into contempt, it was a crime.”
  • Sentenced to jail and a harsh fine, Lyon became a folk hero, writing essays smuggled from jail—and was re-elected while imprisoned.
• The Election of 1800: Constitutional Crisis and Lyon’s Decisive Vote (15:50)
  • Election resulted in a tie (Jefferson/Burr). The House deadlocked for seven days and 36 ballots.
  • Lyon ultimately broke Vermont’s tie and cast its vote for Jefferson, ensuring his presidency.
  • Key Quote:

    “When the constitutional machinery jammed and the young republic hovered between two consequential futures, the state that helped break the stalemate spoke through Matthew Lyon—the indentured servant who became a printer, the immigrant soldier, the Congressman who spat in a colleague's face, swung fireplace tongs in self defense, and wrote seditious essays from a stone jail cell… [He] helped save the American experiment.” (21:22)

2. Interview: Congressman James Clyburn on History’s Echoes and ‘The First Eight’

(22:39 – 49:27)

Sharon introduces Clyburn, referencing his long tenure, historic status, and new book.

Congressional Gridlock and Historical Perspective

• Clyburn reflects on how Congress is “beginning to get things moving a little bit,” hoping to restore stability (22:52).
• On writing his book: Inspired by childhood lessons and a realization that hardly anyone knew South Carolina's Black political pioneers (24:03).
  • Quote:

    “One of them looked up at the pictures and asked, who are those people?... I thought you were the first African American from South Carolina. And I playfully said, ‘No. Before I was first, there were eight.’” (24:03)

Why This Book, and Why Now?

• Clyburn began writing to inform but rewrote to “be a little more instructive” post-2020 election and after January 6th.
  • He saw echoes of history repeating: “This whole notion that it has never been like this before is not quite true.” (25:21)
• Addresses current rollbacks and minimization of Black and marginalized achievements (26:13).

Past Patterns and Present Dangers

• Clyburn recounts how New Deal and postwar programs (Social Security, GI Bill) systematically excluded most Black Americans despite their reputation.
  • Quote:

    “Social Security did not cover domestic workers and farm workers. And 65% of African Americans… were employed in those two areas… the GI Bill… a lot of African Americans were not allowed to participate in the educational support as well as housing development.” (28:06)

• Draws a direct line connecting Jim Crow ‘creative devices’ to today's voting restrictions, referencing poll tests, literacy tests, and more (35:00).

Why the 95-year Gap? The End of Reconstruction to Clyburn’s Own Election

• Sharon points out: “It took 95 years for another Black person to be elected to represent South Carolina.” (33:51)
• Clyburn details “redeemer” efforts to restore white supremacy, suppress Black votes, and enforce segregation—enabled by laws and Supreme Court rulings (34:07–37:47).
  • Quote:

    “That 95 year period saw some of the most violent activities toward people of color, some of the most effective denial of equal protection of the law… And that’s what this book is all about. To say… what happened then could happen again if we are not vigilant.” (36:55)

Equity vs. Equality in American Society

• Clyburn: “I have three daughters and often use the three of them as an example of why equality is not what I see because I don’t treat the three of them the same way. Their needs are totally different.” (38:34)
• Sharon, as a former teacher, supports this view, contrasting equity with strict equality using special education as an example (37:47–38:34).

3. Shared Affection for Septima Clark and Powerful Lessons from the Civil Rights Era

(42:05 – 46:49)

• Sharon: Deep fondness for South Carolinian civil rights champion Septima Clark, “an unsung champion for the rights of children.” (42:21)
• Clyburn’s Personal Connection:
  • Shares an anecdote: MLK referred to Clark as the “mother of the movement.”
  • Clyburn had lunch with King and Clark—his last meeting with King was at her home (43:11).
• Septima Clark’s Philosophy:
  • Sharon recounts Clark’s late-in-life wisdom:

    “I have learned that I can work with my enemies because they might have a change of heart at any moment.”

  • Clyburn agrees, recalling witnessing personal transformations through humanity, citing the story of a once-hostile Charleston newspaper editor (45:03).

4. Ending with Hope: Lessons for Today from the Past

(47:11 – 49:27)

• Sharon asks what Clyburn hopes readers take from his book.
• Clyburn offers hope and calls for vigilance:
  • Quote:

    “No matter how dark it may seem. My dad used to say the darkest point of the night is that moment just before dawn. We cannot allow ourselves to become so despair that we lose sight on preparing for the dawn… You do not know the day or the hour that our preparation is going to be called upon.” (47:26, 49:16)

• Sharon echoes the need to prepare for positive change, reminding listeners not to be paralyzed by despair.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “If the Adams administration could jail him for criticizing, the president could jail anyone… [Lyon] had been re elected to his seat in the House of Representatives by a comfort of margin.” (13:22)
• Clyburn: “I then started over… trying to demonstrate what had happened after the Civil War and what I saw happening in the aftermath of this election… It was like this before. We just run around back in 1876 when it happened.” (25:21)
• On Robert Smalls:
  • “I refer to [Smalls] as the most consequential… South Carolinian who ever lived… becoming the captain of that ship, getting his freedom, and… becoming a United States congressman for ten years. …Why… nobody ever heard of this guy? That wasn’t an accident.” (30:28)
• On equity:
  • “I very seldom use the word equal because I don’t think anybody is asking to be treated equally. Our needs are not the same, and so equal treatment is not what’s being pursued here. Equity is what needs to be employed.” (37:47)

Important Timestamps

• 00:54–21:45: The Matthew Lyon Story – Immigration, brawling in Congress, prison, and the tie-breaking vote of 1800.
• 22:39: Introduction to Congressman Clyburn interview.
• 24:03: Clyburn’s motivation for his book and link to childhood.
• 27:15: How rolling back Black history and DEI efforts feels to Clyburn.
• 30:28: Clyburn on Robert Smalls’ legacy.
• 33:51–37:47: Why South Carolina went nearly a century without Black congressional representation.
• 42:05–46:49: Septima Clark—her example, advice, and unexpected transformations.
• 47:11–49:16: Clyburn’s closing advice—prepare for the dawn, don’t give in to despair.

Conclusion

This episode of The Preamble expertly weaves stories from America’s early and recent political history, showing how the chaos, courage, setbacks, and heroics of the past echo in the current moment. Sharon McMahon and Jim Clyburn offer listeners both a bracing warning—history does repeat, especially when its hardest lessons are forgotten—and reasons for hope, grounded in the endurance and resourcefulness of those who came before.

Highly recommended for those seeking deeper context on American democracy, race, and resilience.