← The Preamble
The Preamble
The Tell with Amy Griffin
00:51:15
Venture capitalist and author Amy Griffin reveals how facing the truth she’d been running from, set her on a powerful journey of self-discovery, vulnerability, and healing.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:30]
Sharon McMahon
Hello friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. My guest is Amy Griffin. Amy is a friend of mine who also happens to be an incredible venture capitalist and incredible businesswoman. And now she is an absolutely incredible author. Her new book the Tell Let me tell you, I ripped through this memoir in basically one sitting. I did not even feel inclined to check my phone. That is how phenomenal it is. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon and here's where it gets interesting. I am so excited to have Amy Griffin on the show today. This has been such a fun episode to plan and thank you for making time to do this before you jet off on this incredible book tour with incredible hosts all over the country. Before you are writing all the articles and doing all the tv. Thanks for making time to do this.
- [02:31]
Amy Griffin
Are you kidding? Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful. Thank you for being, in many ways, I'll say, a book mentor. How amazing that I got to meet you earlier in the fall. I Think one of the things about writing this book was someone said to me, another author friend, before meeting you, she said, amy, one of the greatest things about publishing a book is not necessarily the publishing of the book. It's the people that you'll meet along the way. And I now have you in my life because of the book.
- [02:54]
Sharon McMahon
I think that's so true. And some of my favorite people in the world have been authors that I've gotten to meet just from the process of becoming an author and sort of like joining this club of published authors. Of course the book tour is going to be memorable, and the launch of the book's going to be memorable, but hopefully it will also be meaningful.
- [03:12]
Amy Griffin
So many people have said to me, I think you included, to really try to enjoy it, enjoy the process, because it happens so fast, probably a lot like parenting and childbirth, and that you don't remember it and then you do it again. But I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for the time. I'm so grateful for all the conversations. And I'm actually starting to really get excited about the conversation to come in the next few weeks.
- [03:34]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, and you should be. One of the things that I hope you'll take away is the impact that your book is going to have on so many people. You are going to meet so many people who are going to tell you what this book has meant to them. And that is something that I drew a lot of meaning from, is like, what my work meant to somebody else. Of course, you know what it means to you. But I think you're going to find that this book is very, very meaningful to a lot of people.
- [04:04]
Amy Griffin
Well, thank you. And I also say that that's the idea, too, that now it is a little bit like also in parenting, that once you put it out in the world, it's really no longer mine. And you're right. There's so much beauty in the connection that I see with other people in terms of how the threads that they're starting to pull from it, because it was all in my brain, and I was so focused on the different elements of it, and just to see what different parts of the book are meaningful to people and a huge part of it. I know you've talked to me about that, too. And even six months ago when we talked about that, it was something I couldn't really recognize because I remember, again, it's like parenting, where if you'd said, this is what's going to happen before the, you know, crawl, walk, run stage, I would have thought I Don't really know how that's possible, but I'm starting to see it.
- [04:44]
Sharon McMahon
Your book is called the Tell. And let me tell you, I am a very avid reader. You can see that I have a couple books behind me. All that to say that I've read a couple books in my lifetime. And when I tell you that I ripped through the Tell, I read the first 50 pages one night before bed and then was like, okay, I gotta save this till tomorrow. Made myself go to sleep and read the next morning, the remaining 200 plus pages in under two hours. I didn't think about looking at my phone. I was not like, what are the headlines? I was not, who's trying to text me right now? I could not put it down. That takes a lot for me to say, right? Like. Cause I got a lot of balls in the air, as do you. You know, there's a lot vying for my attention. So I just could not believe, first of all, what an incredible storyteller you are.
- [05:45]
Amy Griffin
Thank you.
- [05:46]
Sharon McMahon
And what an incredible story you have to tell.
- [05:49]
Amy Griffin
I'm so grateful. I think, you know, the pace of the book sort of mirrors the way my life looked at that time as I was writing. And it's been so hard, even before I shared a copy with you and we spoke about it, to be able to say, I don't even know how to describe to you, like, here it is. You have to take it in. And once you do, you know, in many ways, as you start off and the book starts off about running, you're running right there with me. And I think one of the most important things about the book that I find that now I'm looking in on is the idea that when I wrote the book, I had no idea that anyone in the world would ever read it. I wasn't writing the book to be published. I wrote the book for me. And so I wrote the book initially, five years ago, in my closet, in my bathroom, in the middle of the night. And I wrote it so I could be honest with myself. And then I had this recognition, this permission in the idea of telling, of going forward and talking about all the things that happened and realizing how much it helped me and how I saw it in the eyes of others when I shared. And so just to tell you, the book is really a memoir about my life in three parts. And the word that comes up is memories. The first part of my book, which I felt like was either a love letter or a Southern thank you note to myself. I talk about my family, my beautiful parents, and riding my banana seat bike and meeting my friends to do cartwheels in the fields and collecting ladybugs and all of those things that went on in this first part of my life that were so beautiful. Taking my friends as an act of generosity to go and spend time in my family's convenience stores, which is my family business, to take all my friends to go get a candy and a Coke. And so the first part of the book is this idea of memory, and then it's also about horrific childhood memories that I was able to give myself permission to trust and remember. And then, as you say, the second part of the book becomes this criminal investigation. It is a crime thriller that I was living as I was writing it. So it was not intended to be that. But literally, I was Olivia Benson. The way that in every episode she ties it up in a perfect bow and ties up this investigation. And I wanted to say that this is what happened to me and I was the perfect survivor. You know, I did all the things in my life the way I'd perfected my life, tried to perfect things and control things the way we all do, and yet I couldn't do that. And so the third part is this aftermath of me reckoning with the idea that you can't always have a perfect ending. And getting to go and tell that became what the book was really about, was really about the compelling.
- [08:29]
Sharon McMahon
I want to start sort of at the beginning here about your family of origin. You have a lovely family. You had a family of means who gave you a lovely childhood in West Texas. And you have so many lovely memories that you recount. And you do such a great job of sort of transporting the reader back to your childhood, as you mentioned, the banana seed bikes and the running in the canyon and all of these in many ways very idyllic childhood experiences. And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about this idea that despite parents who loved you deeply and would have done anything for you, and having everything you needed and knowing that you were loved and cared for and you were a good student, you were smart, and you were such a nice person, you had friends and people liked you, and there were seemingly no egregious hardship happening in the life of young Amy. And yet now that you can look back, you can see how there was always something that you were running from. There was always something that made you strive for a level of perfection that you couldn't even understand. There was always something sort of lurking in the shadows that you couldn't even articulate you know, like that your body knew about, but that your mind could not bring to the forefront. And you talk about how you began to understand that your worth was in your accomplishments. And you knew you were doing well when you would receive praise, but that praise was always fleeting, and you were always having to chase through it. Yes, burn through the praise. Always having to chase the next hit of praise, of having accomplished something. Talk a little bit more about what that was like as a child to never stop striving and to feel that your worth was only in what you could accomplish.
- [10:29]
Amy Griffin
Well, sometimes I have to take a step back and think about the idea that I didn't know any differently because that's what I thought was a beautiful life was this idea of the striving, of the perfection, of the control. But it was only in these moments of recognition of the running and the running and the running, and I use the running as a metaphor in the book, of the fact that I was really, in a way, running away from some of the most beautiful things in life, which is the fact that you can't control everything. And the real freedom in life is trying to let go of some of those controls. And I think that as a child, as I was burning through that praise, I look back at this idea of perfection, and I think about how we all have that person in our life. In many ways. Someone would say, if I could just have this, or if I could just do that, or if I could just climb this mountain, then I would be okay, or I would be seen, I would be loved, I would be believed. And I think in my case, the idea that, you know, I wasn't the one looking around to see who that perfect person was, I was trying to survive. And I've come to understand that connection between survival and perfection and control. And so for me, in my case, I was just trying to survive. And the perfection and the control, the means around it, were a way of survival. And only that my adult brain can really process and understand that, you know.
- [11:53]
Sharon McMahon
When you grow up, you go away to college, you leave Texas and move to Virginia to go to college, and you're a college athlete, and you talk a little bit about, you know, what athletics meant to you, and you understood it to be, when I'm moving my body, I can process what I want to say in a paper. I can process my emotions when I'm swimming or running. When you moved away, you understood that that was something that most people in your community didn't do. You were making the choice to leave the state of Texas, which most of the people from your class weren't interested in doing. Can you now pinpoint, like, a reason why you felt, like, I need to leave here? Because you even talk about how difficult it was for you to go home to visit your family. You would see your family in other settings. You'd take a trip together to the Smoky Mountains, or you'd meet in Phoenix, or they'd come visit you. But why did you decide to leave home?
- [12:53]
Amy Griffin
Well, I think I look back at it now and I have so much compassion for myself and the idea that leaving was so hard and was such an important thing for me to do. Because I look back now and I realized I had to get out. I had to go away. But I was leaving a beautiful community in this West Texas town that was very idyllic in many ways. But in looking back now and all that went on, I think that I recognized, I did have that strength of character in knowing intuitively what I needed for myself. And at the age of 18, to go to the University of Virginia. I remember it was really one of the only college visits that I made without my parents. I just recently, I remembered I'd been on crutches and I'd hurt my ankle my senior year. And I was going to visit and I got to University of Virginia. And I'll never forget, I called home that night from a pay phone, because there were no phones. And I said to my parents, if they offer me a scholarship tomorrow, I'm going to accept. They said, but you haven't even seen the gym or met the coach. I said, I know, but. And Sharon, you can appreciate this. This place of history, this place that had trees and serpentine walls and buildings that felt important. They felt meaningful. And I arrived there and I thought, I am going to walk on these cobblestone steps where people have walked and made important decisions and done interesting things. And that is going to be the next phase of my life. I'm going to be in this place with people that are different than where I've come from. And I loved it there so much. I loved my time in the University of Virginia. And so I think it was sort of an intuitive knowing. But also there was always a part of me that stayed in the community because I was raised by, I call it in the book, casserole culture. Because the community is this beautiful place with. I think we invited the woman who runs a dry cleaning service to my wedding. Because that's what you did. Otherwise she would know. Cause she'd be the one dry cleaning the dress for the wedding and everyone was included and everyone, if you were sick, if you were getting married, if there was a death, whatever it was, you showed up with a casserole. And so it was really hard to leave that community.
- [15:04]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, my mother in law, she's passed now, but my mother in law was from the south and she used to talk about how the small town that she grew up in and that she returned to when they retired, that when somebody would die, the sort of tradition in their town was while the funeral was going on, you would go to their house and a committee of women would clean your house, top to bottom for sure. And when you came home, your entire house would be clean, your entire freezer would be stocked, there would be food in the fridge. I need more details. She's no longer with us, so I can't ask, but it seems like why weren't these women at the funeral? I don't know. But nevertheless, it was understood you would leave your door unlocked because people were going to come to your house that day. That was the sort of social contract that they had with each other. And that creates these, like you're saying, these beautiful communities. But it doesn't mean that everything is as it seems. I often hear people talking about how the media has us siloed into echo chambers. We exist in multiple different versions of reality. If you're on the left, you're hearing some stories and on the right you're hearing entirely different ones. And even if you're hearing about the same event, you're hearing about it in very different ways. And this leads to a declining trust in media where people feel like they are not getting the real picture. And this morning I was using Ground News to read about the upcoming tariffs that are going to be imposed on imports from not just Canada and Mexico, but from the European Union, the eu. And on the left you see headlines like this, Donald Trump announced plans to impose a 25% tariff on imports from the EU, claiming the EU was formed to, quote, screw the United States. And on the right you saw headlines like Trump insisted it is Europe's responsibility to provide security guarantees to Ukraine. Headlines about the exact same topic. I also really like the Blindspot section. It shows you stories that are basically not being covered at all on the left or on the right. I just think it's interesting to see what the other side is perhaps not paying any attention to.
- [17:22]
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- [17:24]
Sharon McMahon
To different viewpoints and have a more well rounded view of the world. Go to Ground News, Sharon, to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan, which will unlock access to all of their news analysis features. I think Ground News is doing important work and I hope you'll check them out. That's Ground News. Sharon.
- [17:46]
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- [18:15]
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- [18:28]
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- [18:30]
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Sharon McMahon
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- [19:35]
Amy Griffin
As neat and tidy as I talk about that, you know, I love the idea that I come from a family of entrepreneurs and that I have this incredible grandmother who looking back, had started three businesses in the 50s as a single woman and here she's in West Texas and I didn't know any different but that I had a grandmother who worked and I learned so much from her and she was this role model for me and so to go into those stores and see the convenience stores that she started because there wasn't a convenience store In West Texas in the 50s. She was the original venture capitalist, I guess you could say. But to be able to go into these stores and understand brand and margin and the variety on the shelves and how everything had to be neat and clean and tidy was a part of my upbringing, and I love that. And just to go back to what you were saying about, you know, I thought it was interesting that you said the women, right, the women were the ones that created these committees. They were doing all this extra work on top of all their lives to make sure that they took care of, you're saying, you know, when someone passed away, they go in and they make it perfect, they feed you, they take care of you, they keep your house clean. And I think that's sort of a beautiful metaphor, that it's not something that I would even necessarily change in the culture at all. I think it's a beautiful thing. But it's a recognition that we as women carry so much. The perfect mother, the perfect daughter, the perfect athlete, the perfect student. I mean, you have to get dressed, you have to look perfect, you have to get dressed for the podcast. You men just can throw on their suit and go to work. There's so many elements of being a woman that are hard, that are difficult to like.
- [21:08]
Sharon McMahon
When I am interviewed by men, even super enlightened, well intentioned, feminist men, it is impossible for them to understand the pressure of what it is like to maintain appearances. Both your physical appearance, the appearance of what's happening with your family, the appearance that you have everything together, that you have achieved the right things and you have married the right man or the right partner, that you have it all together, that you are maintaining those appearances. And I think one of the things that really spoke to me about your book was that what happens when appearances are not enough.
- [21:51]
Amy Griffin
Yeah, I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking, like, that's why I wrote the book. There was this process of me sort of laying it down and saying, this all happened. And I was putting up appearances. I was building these castle walls around me with moats and alligators and making sure the drawbridge was up and that I was never going to tell this secret. I was never going to talk about what happened to me because it didn't fit into the narrative of the perfect girl in the beautiful community. It wasn't something that made sense in this world. And so yet I couldn't even deal with it myself. And so the writing of this book has been this unraveling of a process of saying it's okay. And by the way when you speak your truth and you're honest and you share the connection on the other end is so powerful. So where we had been conditioned as women not to share and to have everything look perfect in doing so, and laying that all down, the vulnerability that I felt, that has been connected to power, like, vulnerability can equal power. Where you would think, like, don't show any vulnerability or you're going to look weak. And I love that word vulnerability. It's like, I don't use the word brave because that would be for someone else to say in terms of telling the story. I wasn't brave. I would say I was just vulnerable. I just said, here it is. This is what happened.
- [23:14]
Sharon McMahon
And again, going back to this notion of appearances, you truly do and did have it all. Your family is just beautiful. You have a million friends who love you. I could probably throw a rock and find 25 people who are like, oh, Amy, I love her. You know, like, you are very beloved by your friends and family from all external appearances. You have a successful career, a husband who loves you unconditionally and who is also successful. You have everything. And I want you to take the listener back to this moment where something kind of pings in your brain. We're having a conversation with your daughter where you realize that there is a crack in the castle wall. There's a crack in this facade. Can you tell the listener that story?
- [24:04]
Amy Griffin
Absolutely. So my daughter was 10, which is still incredible to me. And my other daughter, who you've met, who was 13 at the time, said, gigi really wants to speak to you. And I went into her room, and just like all these things we've been talking about, Sharon, she said, mom, you're nice, but you're not real. And I said, what are you talking about? She said, I don't know you. And I said, what do you mean, you don't know me? She said, you don't share, meaning you aren't being vulnerable with us about things that went on in your life. And there was a thread in that moment, because what I said to her was, I do everything for you. Think about everything that happened.
- [24:42]
Sharon McMahon
All the cupcakes and the lessons and the ballet.
- [24:45]
Amy Griffin
Yes, all of it. And she said, I know, but that doesn't matter to me. And so what was really interesting was I left that room, and I think it was the only time I slammed the door. And John said, what was that all about? And he said, I think you were acting more like the child, and she was acting like the parent that she was Actually trying to tell you something. And I give myself credit because in that moment I realized you're not being honest about your life with your children, even if I wasn't really willing to face it at that moment in time either. But that was the catalyst. You know, we talk about your children being your greatest teachers, and in this case, and in every case, my kids have been that. And through the telling, it's been the case too. But that was the thread that she pulled on when I said, you know what? It's time for me to go and really talk about what has gone on in my life. And in that honesty, just see what happens, because I don't really have a choice. I think that you also saw I had a million surgeries. I'd had hip surgeries and back surgeries, and running and running and running. And I think there was this physical component. I'm not a scientist, I'm not a doctor, I have no medical knowledge of this. I am a one of one. But I can tell you that my body was giving me messages and I wasn't listening. I think it was this time period you mentioned having this incredible partner. I think so many things came together, Sharon, that's so important around this time was my daughters were of the ages I was when this abuse that we can talk about happened. And I had an incredible 20 year marriage where there was a safety net. So I felt so safe between this husband that I had who I felt safe enough to talk about what happened, the girls who were the same ages. And then the freedom to say, I need to step back and slow down and really dive into this. So I look at it as this ball of inferno that all came together at once. I don't know what it was, God, the divine, whatever you believe in, but this was a moment of reckoning for me.
- [26:39]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, I just keep thinking about what would it have felt like to hear you're nice, but you're not real from your own daughter. Was that like a punch in the gut?
- [26:51]
Amy Griffin
I can't tell you how many times in writing this book I wanted to take it out. Not even writing. When I wrote it the first time for myself, I didn't want to keep it in. And then that reality, that honesty with myself was the catalyst to the change. And so to read it and read it and read it, it's still hard to read it. It's still hard to hear that. But what ensued from that and the changes that I've made through that is really what the book is all about. Again, the process of Moving from what is control and perfection into vulnerability, compassion, and connection with my children and my husband in ways that I could never have imagined. I always thought I had a great relationship with them, but, you know, I love this idea. Now that I asked Gracie, what is something that you think I've done differently now since I've done this work, all this work, and we can back up to talk about it. But she looked at me and she said, oh, mom, you talk about slamming doors where I slammed a door. And she said, you know, mom, now if I ever slam a door, I wait for you to come up and argue with me about something, but you don't come. There is no need to argue. There is no need to prove anything. You are a great parent. Yes, I know you do everything for me. But isn't that the role of a 17 year old in many ways, to argue? Isn't that her role to argue with me, but not my role to argue back? And so we kind of have laughed about it. And she said, you know, I'm going to use that in parenting when I get older. I'm not going to go to the room. I said, okay, okay, great, great.
- [28:16]
Sharon McMahon
Mental note.
- [28:17]
Amy Griffin
Yeah, mental note. One parent check. I've done one thing right, but you know what I'm starting to realize? Like, nothing is perfect in parenting.
- [28:23]
Sharon McMahon
No.
- [28:24]
Amy Griffin
Right. We're doing the best that we can.
- [28:25]
Sharon McMahon
I know, I know. It's a sobering realization that no one escapes their childhood unscathed, that what you can hope to do is mitigate the serious harm and not overly traumatize your kids. But the idea that you can do it perfectly is you're a perfect example of this. You literally were doing everything perfectly. And then what was the result? You're nice, but you're not real.
- [28:51]
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- [28:52]
Sharon McMahon
You can't do it perfectly. And those flaws that we all have are actually really important for our children's development. If you were raised by robots, you don't become anybody good or interesting.
- [29:04]
Amy Griffin
And by the way, I was maybe going down that path if I hadn't gone in and done this work, you know, to really go and accept what had gone on and to talk about the trauma that ensued and to have those conversations with my kids.
- [29:18]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah. You come to this point after your daughter tells you this, where you begin this journey of sort of trying to dig beneath the surface of like, I know there's something here. I can't articulate what it is, but I know there's something here. And you, as you just said, gave yourself Permission to uncover and sort of feel these feelings and remember these things that were just sort of lurking beneath the surface that became a catalyst that changed everything about your life. So I don't want to give too much about the book away because I want to tell people it truly is an insane page turner. But I would love to hear you talk a little bit about what it is that you uncovered that leads to being such a big change in your life and also to this sort of legal drama that ensues.
- [30:11]
Amy Griffin
I never know. In many of the conversations and hundreds of conversations that I've had in the last few years as I was writing this book, I have to recognize that everyone is in a different place when I go to speak to them about what they want to ask me or what they're comfortable where they are in their life in terms of things that have happened, broken parts of them that I don't want to trigger or have them have to deal with. Because I can say one of the really incredible things about my daughters is when I went to tell my daughters after I'd gone through the process, they didn't say, mom, how did this happen? Why did this happen? Why didn't you tell us? They didn't ask for those answers. Instead, they said, oh, now we understand why you're not perfect. We understand why you have these walls up. We understand why the drawbridge has been closed oftentimes. But it was only in that moment that I, you know, and not giving too much away, I went in and I made this decision after learning a lot about psychedelic assisted therapy. And it's a combination of the psychedelic assisted therapy and this reckoning of my daughter, this was all happening at the same time. And the loving partnership of John to go in and work with a practitioner who also felt very, very safe to me in meeting her. Because I remember saying to John, I learned about psychedelic assisted therapy, and it was very new to me. And I am someone who literally barely drinks alcohol and have never seen illicit drugs and had never smoked a joint or seen anything remotely dangerous or illegal. And I went in and had learned about PTSD with survivors of trauma. And I thought of PTSD as war. I thought of it as only as something that happens with war veterans, only to realize that PTSD had so many other uses, that the term could be used for so many other types of trauma. And so I started looking into it, and new people in my life, my husband included, who had gone in to process things and use psychedelic assisted therapy to really have compassion for themselves and the party line. That John had given while we were married in the first 20 years was that when we went to dinner and someone said, john, do you have siblings? And he would say, no, I'm an only child. But that was just the way he said. And then John went in and had an MDMA session. And I remember going to dinner a week later and someone said, john, do you have siblings? And he said, no, I did have a sister, but she committed suicide. And I saw this openness in John and I saw this ability to be honest with this group of people and with himself. And I thought, okay, I want that and I know I need that. So I pulled at those threads to go and work with a practitioner and recognize that PTSD applied to me. And it was in these moments of working with this practitioner that I decided to take the pill, to put on eye shades, to listen to music and to give myself compassion, to give myself permission, as I said, and even taking a pill to go in and dive into these memories, knowing again. Maybe just like you said, Sharon, thank you for being so observant to recognize that leaving home was a permission, right? Leaving home was an authentic knowing within me and the same thing. Now to go in and do this work, to say, I know I need this. I know I need to acknowledge what has gone on. What is Dax?
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Sharon McMahon
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Amy Griffin
That's a great offer.
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- [35:26]
Amy Griffin
Within five minutes of taking the pill, I raised my hand and I said to the practitioner, I need to tell you everything. And I told her everything about being abused in a middle school bathroom by a teacher for many years. And it was this freedom of sharing right in that moment, first with myself, then with her, and then later, eight hours after talking about nothing but the abuse that had gone on with the practitioner, I was able to tell John. And so began this journey of telling and sharing.
- [35:57]
Sharon McMahon
First of all, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
- [36:01]
Amy Griffin
Thank you.
- [36:02]
Sharon McMahon
You speak about it in the book, so, you know, it's very succinct, but it's very poignant and I had so much compassion for that. Seventh grader, sixth grader. I'm very sorry that happened to you.
- [36:16]
Amy Griffin
Thank you so much.
- [36:19]
Sharon McMahon
I think also, you know, this is something we've talked about before too, that like if we, if people don't know your story, you can't help them with it. You know, you can't help them if they don't know.
- [36:28]
Amy Griffin
That's right. You always tell me that you say if you don't share your story, I think that might be why we've connected so deeply. Sharon, if you don't give people the opportunity to read your story, to know your story, you can't help them. And I was afraid to share my story for fear of not being perfect. For fear of not being believed.
- [36:53]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah.
- [36:54]
Amy Griffin
If I'm truthful about the writing about this book, when I was writing in the beginning, it was writing to believe myself. And through the course of the writing over a five year period, I can't say that anymore. I can't even say it's. Believe me, it's. Let me tell you. And as I went out to talk to the people in my life, my closest friends, my work friends, my colleagues, my children's teacher, as I talk about in the book, the threads of recognizing how common it is and how it's so hidden and unspoken about, I felt so seen. I Felt like I was living in community. There's that Rumi quote where they talk about everyone coming to the field, where it's a place of there's no right or wrong, and that you just come to the field. And that's how I felt. I felt like I was actually coming into a community where for the first time, because I spoke it out loud, then I felt so much connection.
- [37:43]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah. And it's telling that the book is called the Tell because it doesn't dwell on, you know, these extended scenes of all of this very horrific abuse, although it certainly is honest. But the book becomes what happens when you begin to tell people, when you begin to tell lawyers, when you begin to tell law enforcement, when you begin to tell your children and your parents and your siblings and your friends what happens when you begin to tell. And I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about what it has meant to you to tell people your story, because this is a universal experience, particularly of women. A universal experience that we all have something that perhaps we keep sort of locked inside. We all have something that we feel like will ruin our perfect facade if we tell people. But the power, as you discover, is in the telling. So tell us a little bit more about that.
- [38:45]
Amy Griffin
Well, I think what I discovered in this whole process was the idea that we think secrets keep us safe, but they keep us stuck. And in my life, everything from physically breaking down to, you know, the idea that I stood in front of the elevator door and my son was coming home one minute late of thinking, why is he not home? Why is he not home? This control over it. And John said, amy, he's running down a one way street to get home to be in the elevator. He'll be in the elevator in 30 seconds. And that was another tell. This idea that the tell was these tells that I had to myself. I was writing the book as the story was unfolding, so I didn't realize I was writing a crime novel. I had no idea that that was the tell and that the idea. And you said it perfectly, which was the idea that what happened to me. And yes, I like to say that I did not write a book about trauma. This is not a trauma book. Although I do talk about my trauma. Instead, I recognize that the book and the writing for me was how I felt about going in to talk to everyone in my life. Because there were so many different factors that have gone into the timing to decide to tell my children, the decision to talk to my parents, how people in my hometown would receive the news, how I would feel when I couldn't hold the grief that they had for me or how they felt when they said, why did we not know? Or why did you not tell us? So the back and forth telling was so painful, and it was happening alongside this criminal investigation that I undertook because I thought it was so important. And that's the crux of the book, because I had to make sure this person was no longer out there doing what he did to me. First and foremost, I had to make sure that there was no one else that this was happening to. And so I put every effort in the ways that we talk about, just like you talked about, you know, the people cleaning the house and making the meals. It was going to be perfect.
- [40:39]
Sharon McMahon
The perfect survivor.
- [40:40]
Amy Griffin
The perfect survivor. The perfect outcome. And so much happens in between that that I would never have recognized. There's a particular lawyer in my hometown who, for so long, I was so angry at because all he would ever say to me is, slow down.
- [40:53]
Sharon McMahon
Duke made me so. He infuriated me. I know he infuriated me on your behalf and on the behalf of other women who undoubtedly tried to share their stories with him. And he just kept trying to get them to sanitize it and became emotionally unavailable, physically unavailable. Slow down. You're gonna have to slow it down. Like I.
- [41:15]
Amy Griffin
And we don't do things here that way. This is.
- [41:18]
Sharon McMahon
We're gonna maintain the status quo, which.
- [41:20]
Amy Griffin
Is how we're going to do it. We're going to move slowly and. But the interesting thing is, coming out of it now, many years later, I can kind of laugh at this conversation with the lawyer because, you know, in many ways, he was right, because I had to slow down. But not from the criminal investigation piece, which I wanted answers. I wanted the perfect outcome. I wanted to get this person. And what's interesting is the story has a lot of twists and turns to get there, but in realizing that wasn't what I was going to get and the people that came in and out of the story, you know, he's right in that it was only once I slowed down enough to investigate me and that I didn't need that anymore. I wasn't going to get it. And I had tried, but I wasn't going to heal from that. It wasn't going to take it away. And everything that happened still happened. And so no matter what I did from a legal perspective, I was never going to wring my hands and be able to say, perfect outcome. Look what I did. Like, look how great. It's another trophy for Me. It's another win. It's another achievement to my resume. And that's a lot like life. I think that's another part of the theme of talking about that life is one foot in a bucket of hot water and one foot in a bucket of cold water. And it's the life that's made up in between, and that's just how we live it and how you accept those truths. I think of the friend you always talk about. The spill bottle of wine on the dinner table is actually a better evening. Now, I'm not comparing that to my trauma at all, because I'm now learning to live with what happened to me rather than from it. But that includes the spilled wine.
- [42:53]
Sharon McMahon
This question will really only make sense once people have read it. But once they read it, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think the postcard is from Claudia?
- [43:05]
Amy Griffin
Oh, my gosh. The eternal question. You know, I do and I don't. And I walk down the street and I think, yes, 100%. And then I realized that when that moment came, when word from the universe, however I was supposed to have received it, that I was not alone came to me. I didn't need that validation. And then I also have been able to look at it, to think about the idea that that postcard that I was sent is a message for all women, for anyone to say, I see you and we're connected. And as my daughter perfectly said, mom, you don't need anything else. You got the postcard, which even validated you. And so I've. But do I still think about it? Yes. And when I wrote this book, was I in the middle of writing that book when this all happened? Yes. You know, I. Even as recently as the last month, I think that this is also so important for me to say. And I say it over and over and over again. I moved. And when we moved, I put this postcard in the safe. And when I had moved and I realized, oh, my gosh, I left the postcard in the safe and it's not here. And I walked back over to our apartment and I went upstairs, and I thought, you know what? Maybe if this postcard's not in the safe, then maybe I made it all up. Because I've constantly been looking for an out. And even years later, after the book is written, after the facts that I have, the things that I know, the way my body feels, this intuition, the knowing, the knowing that it all happened and not doubting, there's still that part of me that thought well, wait, if the postcard wasn't there, then it can all go away because it's just too hard to deal with. And the postcard was in the safe, so, you know, it's been this reckoning with the idea that I don't live from it anymore. I live with it. And that feels like such a beautiful place to be able to take on anything in life that feels too hard to tackle just to keep living with it.
- [45:01]
Sharon McMahon
What do you hope the reader takes away when they close the last page, which the best way I can describe it is skidding into home base of like, I just could not get to the last page fast enough. I just really wanted to find out how it ended. What do you hope the reader takes away with them?
- [45:23]
Amy Griffin
Well, it's interesting in just the talking about the pacing and how you say you wanted it because you wanted that perfect ending for me, too. And then we can all find that thread of a perfect ending that we want. We want the storybook ending. We have to have everything tied up with a bow. But then what I want is for people to walk away. My dream would be to have this book on someone's bedside. And then in 10 years, someone writes me a note or sends me a text or an email and says, I pulled this out. And because of this book, I recognized something in myself that I could go and tell. I could go and tell and I could share with that person in my life who on the other end can hear and accept it and then move forward in their life. And so then I, like, imagine all these people. It's like, happening and happening and happening and happening and happening. And then that feels so good to me. And one on one, I think of the reader with a book like yours, which makes us trudge forward where I hope my book is passed like yours in the daylight. I hope that there's no hiding that they say you have to read this book because it's important. It's important for you, but you don't need to hide it.
- [46:28]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah.
- [46:29]
Amy Griffin
And so the way that your book does that for us, you know, to talk about how we move forward in history and what we're going to do now, I hope that people do that for themselves. With my book.
- [46:38]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, I love that. I just could not put it down, as I've said. And I even read, like, every single page of the acknowledgments, you know, like, all of the different friends you have in your life, and it's such a testament to you. And I really like this scene where you realize Again, I don't want to give too much away, but there's a scene with this character of Claudia, who's a real person. Of course she's a character in the book. She's a real person and a dress. And you have this realization, like, maybe I am just a person who gives a girl in middle school a dress. Like, maybe that's just who I am. And I think just the fact that you have five or six pages worth of people to acknowledge and thank is a testament to who you are and how beloved you are and what kind of person you have always been and the person that you have become.
- [47:31]
Amy Griffin
That is the kindest thing ever to say that you read the acknowledgments, because I think I spent six months writing the acknowledgments. I think my editor was like, amy, we can't add someone in. When I'd see someone and I'd forget. But that was the whole point. It was the relationships of all the people that got me through, that could listen. That is why I'm here today. That's how I survived. Writing this book saved my life, but getting to acknowledge the people in my life that helped me make it through and why this life is worth living is why I wrote the book. And it was joyful. It felt so good. Much the way you talk about the dress, to go back and write about the people without using their names, to think about the adjectives that described who they are to me in my life. And so thank you so much for saying that about the acknowledgments. I. I love the acknowledgments.
- [48:17]
Sharon McMahon
I do, too. Yeah, I know the pressure of, like, getting the acknowledgments right. You're like, it's forever. It's being printed and bound, and I can't fix it. And I wrote mine at the very last second, too. It's like writing an Oscar acceptance speech. Like, it's forever if you get it wrong. But it was beautiful. It was really beautiful. And it was beautiful.
- [48:35]
Amy Griffin
You know what I love? Sorry, I was just going to say, too, that the same idea, this southern part of me that I love, that I am not trying to get rid of, I don't want to lose, which is this idea that my mother, who's incredible, taught me to write a beautiful thank you note, and then what. How me to make sure that I sent them all. And I've come to learn something about thank you notes that I have this deep appreciation for now. And the idea that when I write a thank you note, I used to think that it was me just giving it to the other person, but I recognize now the power of memory, which is what my book is so much about. But when you write a thank you note to someone, which is. It's not just a Southern thing, but when you write a thank you note, you're then imprinting a memory of what this person did for you and your relationship with them. And so I've taken on this whole new thinking on my book and thank yous and what it means. And so the telling is like a thank you to all the people in my life who could be there for me.
- [49:22]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, it's a little bit like the psych professor with the teddy bear. You're giving them something to hold on to. Like, you know, you have beautiful stationery and like the weight of it and the perfect stationary. Yes, yes. Like Amy Griffin in Orange at the top. And it's just like you remember it. Obviously, I remember it. There's something about it that. You're right. That does sort of encode in your memory like your therapist talks about. We could keep chatting forever and ever and we will have to do this again sometime. But listen, I'm just, like, so excited for you and I'm so happy that you exist in the world, that you are willing to tell your story, that you are willing to give other people permission to tell theirs and that you were here today. Thank you.
- [50:04]
Amy Griffin
I'm so grateful. And I'm just grateful that even after this book comes out, that I will have you in my life and to learn from. You are my history teacher. You're the way that I get news. You're in my inbox every day. I'm not with you every day, but I think of you every single day. And I'm grateful to you every day.
- [50:17]
Sharon McMahon
Thank you. Thanks, Amy. Thanks for being here. You can find the Tell by Amy Griffin wherever you buy your books. And if you want to support your local bookshop, head to yours or go to bookshop.org. thanks for being here today. Thank you so much for listening to. Here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.