A (3:57)

What is the meaning of life? Many of us have asked a question like this at some point. It's a big question, perhaps too big. But as creatures who are wired to make meaning of the world around us, we cannot help ourselves. At Stanford University, Dave Evans studies how questions like this often lead us astray. Dave Evans, welcome to Hidden Brain.

B (4:20)

Shankar. Good to be with you.

A (4:22)

Dave. You graduated from College in the 1970s with a degree in thermoscience. What is thermoscience and what were your hopes and dreams at the time?

B (4:31)

Well, it's in the mechanical engineering department. I got my bachelor's of science in mechanical engineering, and there are two divisions of that department, the thermoscience division. Some mechanical engine engineers burn things. They're kind of the power and engine guys. And some mechanical engineers make mechanisms that kind of, you know, bend and forge things, mostly out of metal. So I ended up on the thermo side of the house, the guys that make engines, because I cared about the energy problem. And my master's degree was in thermosciences. So I graduated actually with a degree paid for by Chevron Research. The oil company paid for my master's degree, and I became a certified advanced energy technologist in 1976.

A (5:12)

What did you want to do with this? How did you want to make a difference to the world?

B (5:15)

It was very simple. I wanted to solve the energy crisis. I had an absolute epiphany. I was waiting in line at a store one day and there was a television playing up in the corner of the store, and the news was on and gasoline had suddenly hit a dollar a gallon. A dollar a gallon? 1973. And I said, that's gotta stop. We gotta get off this oil thing. That's what I need to do. I have to solve the energy crisis. So that's all I was trying to do.

A (5:43)

So you graduated in 1976. What was the world like at that time? And was the world ready for your, for your miraculous discoveries?

B (5:53)

Well, the world was doing all kinds of things. You know, we were still reeling from trying to end the Vietnam War. Civil rights was going full blast. I'm a full on boomer. So we were trying to change the world. I gave myself a trip all the way around the country in a beat up old van as my graduation present. And it was a great summer because that was the bicentennial. So I went to about 15 different apple pie contests across the country. So there was a lot of Americana, there was a lot of stress. It was a really confusing time. But it was certainly, we have to fix the world. And I was quite convinced I was ready to do that because we had the technology, we had the right ideas, but what we were missing was the social will. There was a small fact that was left out of the brochure of my master's degree, which is it's very difficult to get a job in an industry that doesn't exist yet. So I was all dressed up for a party that hadn't started. Started. I spent four years, profoundly, unsuccessfully, looking for a job that didn't exist. And I was really upset.

A (6:52)

I understand that you eventually pivoted and found a job at a small tech company.

B (6:57)

Yes, there's a little outfit called Apple. Actually, it's a very long story as to how that occurred. It began actually with a phone call. Had a welding torch in my hand at a little solar energy startup that of course miserably failed because it was way too soon. And the guy said, my name is so and so, and I'm from Apple Computer. We'd like to talk to you. And I said, no, you want to talk to the Dave Evans at Hewlett Packard. That's the one who likes computers. I don't. And I hung up. And there are lots of Dave Evans. You can get them in 24 packs at Costco. And I was sure that the other Dave Evans, who I knew worked at Hewlett Packard and let computers, was the guy they wanted. And a very long story later, including 14 interviews and sitting down for lunch with Steve Jobs, they surprised themselves by offering me a job. And to my great shock, I took it. And that's how my high tech career started. But it was the last thing I wanted to do.

A (7:57)

Now, you've been on Hidden Brain previously, Dave, and you told us the last time that while at Apple, you helped to design the world's first mouse.

B (8:06)

That's correct. I was in charge of peripheral product marketing. The two fun things I did was I did the mouse and made the first mouse for Apple. I organized. I didn't design it myself, but I organized the team of people who did. And I got to work on laser printing and do this thing called desktop publishing before anybody knew what that was.

A (8:31)

Now, many people would say that you hit the jackpot. You started working for Apple before it became the Apple that we know today. And the work you were doing was having an impact. Did you wake up every morning feeling like you were doing something meaningful?

B (8:43)

Well, yes and no. I mean, the work we were doing, which is at the beginning of a shift of how technology serves people, was a big deal. But let's be clear, what I was doing was making stuff. We were making, you know, plastic things with wires in them. And so then I just thought, you know, and if I don't do it, somebody else will. And I mean, some of the incredibly important things I worked on are long gone. Not only are they replaced by later generation things, they're completely gone. Nobody even does that stuff anymore. It's like, what is that? It doesn't even matter. And by the way, it's not going to last. So is that all there is?

A (9:28)

I want to talk about a couple of other examples of people who felt like their lives had become dead ends, even though from the outside it might feel like they had not. Years later, after you left Apple, you began teaching at Stanford. You were giving a talk to a room full of accountants and counselors, Kansas City, when a woman whom you call Allison came up to you with a question. What was the question she asked you?

B (9:51)

Well, she really started with, what's wrong with my life and what did I do wrong? And she described this success that didn't work out as she had hoped. So she was an accountant, which is what everybody in the room was. She ran a small business successfully doing accounting and taxes for about 50 other small businesses. She was happily married, she had two children. She had a three bedroom house. She had a car, mostly paid for. So she had exactly everything that she had ever tried to get in her life. She was living exactly the life she had in mind. And it wasn't that she was even bored, it's just something was terribly missing and what have I done wrong? I mean, she really thought she did it all right, but her experience of it was not what I had in mind. And I have no idea why she was really stuck.

A (10:59)

In some ways, this is not that different than your thermoscience story. You know, you came up with a model for what you wanted to do. You were doing a lot of stuff, but in some ways you suddenly encountered some aspect of the world that was not what you had prepared yourself for and you found yourself stuck.

B (11:14)

I think very often what a lot of us, myself certainly included, have done is we have this goal in mind. If I just get to there, all will be well. I call it the all will be well system. Once I am happily married with two kids and have my own business, all will be well. Once I have an important job at an advanced energy technology company getting us off the oil problem, all will be well. You know, once everybody knows how to use a mouse, all will be well. And it turns out all isn't well. I mean, there's not a different you waiting on the other side of that finish line. There's not a different universe you're suddenly living in. There's not a different psyche suddenly saying, oh, now I feel like I'm really being my true self. None of those things are caused by hitting those objectives.

A (12:07)

There are some questions that can keep us up at night. What is the meaning of life? What should I do with mine? These are big, juicy questions, and we can spend lifetimes thinking about them. But are they useful questions? When we come back, what we can learn about designing our lives from people who design products for a living. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Lily. On this show, it's fascinating to discuss the unseen forces shaping the human brain. Consider conditions like Alzheimer's disease, where changes in the brain may develop up to 20 years before noticing symptoms. Talk to your doctor to understand your potential risk factors for dementia due to Alzheimer's disease and ask for a cognitive assessment. Visit brainhealthmatters.com for more information and resources. Support for Hidden brain comes from BetterHelp. Financial stress affects the majority of Americans, often causing anxiety, sleep disruption, and even depression. It's also one of the leading sources of conflict for couples. When money feels uncertain, it can weigh on your thoughts, your relationships, and your sense of stability. And that emotional weight can be hard to carry alone. Finding the right type of support can help. Therapy can give you space to talk through what financial stress brings up for you and help you build tools to manage uncertainty with more confidence. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist from the comfort of your home on a schedule that works for you. It's flexible, convenient, and designed to make getting started feel simple. If you've been feeling the impact of financial stress, you don't have to navigate it on your own. See if therapy is for you. Visit betterhelp.comHidden For 10% off, that's betterhelp.comHidden we all want to live meaningful lives, but sometimes the way we go about doing it can be counterproductive. In our Pursuit of meaning. We can push ourselves into cycles of rumination and self doubt or chronic stress and exhaustion. At Stanford University, Dave Evans says there are a handful of dysfunctional beliefs that get in the way of living the lives we want to live. Dave, I want to talk about some of these dysfunctional beliefs. You talked earlier about wanting to solve the energy crisis in the late 70s, getting a master's degree in thermoscience and then not being able to find work. You once met a man whom you call Alan who had a similar story. I understand he started out in sociology but then made a transition into the tech world.

B (15:08)

Yes, well, he was trying to make a living. He studied sociology and minored in art history. And he was a lovely guy with a nice liberal arts and you know, it's hard to get paid for that. But he turned out to be a pretty good quantifier as well. He kind of liked spreadsheets and even statistics a little bit. And he found his way to doing project management, managing schedules and resources, that sort of thing in software companies, particularly related to the way they ran their marketing program. So he ended up becoming a pretty well respected marketing project manager.

A (15:41)

So he's working on these large engineering teams, he's working on multimillion dollar projects, he's making good. Was he feeling on top of the world?

B (15:51)

No, he was feeling underutilized and he was feeling under recognized because what he wanted was the chance to demonstrate some creativity. And so again, he's in a service role. His clients, if you will, are internal people who work for the same company. And they would come to him with, can you help us with this? And we have this project, can you help us? And that was his job, which he did well. And then he would have ideas about how he could do it better, do it more creatively. And more often than not, not only were people not interested, they didn't even want to hear about it, like, whatever. I mean, where's that thing? I mean I ordered, you know, a hamburger with no cheese on it. You know, I don't know what this sausage thing is, but where's my hamburger?

A (16:31)

Right?

B (16:31)

And, and, and he was pretty heartbroken. And his conclusion was that they don't value me, I'm not valued. These people don't understand what I can do and so I can't be here.

A (16:51)

So I think many of us have felt this way at some point. We get the thing that we think will fulfill us. The dream job, the house, perhaps even the perfect family. But we still feel like something is missing. You Argue that this frustration stems from the fact that we put too much stock in two concepts, fulfillment and impact. Let's start with fulfillment. What do you mean when you say that we put too much stock in fulfillment?

B (17:13)

Well, this is really kind of why we wrote this most recent book. I mean, we help people design a lot of lives and redesign a lot of careers, and they still kept coming back going. I did all that, and technically it worked, but it's still not as fulfilling as I was hoping it was going to be. We said, well, tell us what you mean by that. And overwhelmingly, what fulfillment meant to people was, am I getting to be all that I can be? And then we did some research and found out the reason almost everybody thinks that fulfillment is, you know, getting a chance to do everything you want to do, or particularly everything you can do do, is because Abraham Maslow told you that's what you should want. So we have the hierarchy of needs going back to his originating paper in 1943, which the NIH calls one of the stickiest ideas in the social sciences, where the apex of the human experience is self actualization. And self actualization occurs when one becomes all that one can be. And if I can pull that off, what will I get, according to Maslow, is I will get fulfillment. So self actualize, Be everything you can be, and you get fulfillment. We know all of us contain more liveness than your lifetime permits you to live out. There's more than one life worth of living in you in there. There's more than one of you. There's lots of chakras. Which one are you going to beat this year? So once I know, and I accept the good news that, wow, isn't it cool that my human capacity even exceeds my lifetime? Which means I've got some alternative choices to make. I've got some variety in front of me. Oh, I no longer have the goal of trying to be all I can be. Cause you can't even get there from here. You can't be all you can be. Don't worry about that now. Can I be fully who I'm trying to be right now? That's the invitation.

A (18:56)

So in some ways, what Maslow was telling us is that if you are everything that you want to be, if you can become everything that you possibly can be, you're gonna be happy. But the point that you're making is there are more lifetimes in each of us than we can fit into any one lifetime. And so by definition, none of us are actually going to reach that point of fulfillment.

B (19:14)

Yeah, so, unfortunately, Maslow gave everybody this moral incentive to believe I deserve to be all that I can be. And our argument is that's impossible.

A (19:35)

The other idea you think can lead us to dysfunctional outcomes is this idea of impact. As people reach for fulfillment, they often ask themselves, how will I fulfill my destiny? Can you talk about how this relates to the idea of impact, Dave?

B (19:50)

So some people start with, it's not fulfilling enough. And that's, am I getting to express all of me? And the other most common is, you know, it's just not meaningful enough. Well, what would make it more meaningful? Making a difference. I need to make a difference. I need to change the world. I need to have an impact. I need this to be recognized. I need this to last. And they're talking in a variety of ways, all about the production of their lives, the product, the outcome of their work, making some kind of a difference. Now, don't get us wrong, we are terribly in favor of people having positive impacts. I'm still trying to have a positive impact. But what we're noticing is for a lot of people, impact making is the only version of meaning making that they validate. And the problem with it is when you lean into that, even if it works, and by the way, if you do everything right, your chance of still successfully having an impact is maybe 50. 50, because, you know, those other 8 billion people on the planet, they might go off script at some point, and they're awfully hard to control. But, you know, even if you do pull off that impact, well, what have you done for me lately? Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, I shipped the mouse a long time ago. What have you done for us lately? So impact, the feeling that comes from an impact, doesn't last. And frankly, most of the time, pulling off having an impact doesn't work. So it's a very risky business to decide that's the only way my life is meaningful.

A (21:17)

So in some ways, we've hitched our wagons to these two horses, fulfillment and impact. And in some ways, they're both mirages.

B (21:26)

Yeah. And even for some people who are pulling it off, I've got friends my age starting their seventh company, you know, look at this. Anna, why are you doing this again? Well, I'm really good at it. Well, I know, but we knew that five companies ago. I mean, don't you have another idea? And frankly, what they are is they're so stuck on pulling off that impact thing, they become addicted to it and they can't let go. And then when they finally get to the place where they can't do it anymore. It's an existential crisis.

A (22:02)

Hmm. Let's look at another dysfunctional belief that gets in the way of living a meaningful life. Dave, many of us feel stuck in one way or another. We're not sure why or what to do. Some people call it a midlife crisis, or I've even heard the term quarter life crisis. Now, your colleague Bill Burnett once had a student that you call Sonia. Sonya had a problem. What was this problem?

B (22:25)

Well, she too had, you know, she was working in high technology and she went to a great big company and she was writing code, and she was one of these successful people. The stuff she's writing, millions, even billions of people are using. And she's making a good living. She's working with really intelligent people. She's growing and learning new things. Wow. This is. This is working on every front. Except then, you know, she suddenly realized, I'm just turning the crank. You know, I'm part of this mechanism of high technology, you know, having people click things through and look at another website. Does that really matter to me? And am I stuck on this thing forever? And, I mean, she was in her early 20s and already felt like she was not hitting the ceiling, she was hitting the wall. Because she kind of looked forward through the lens of, you know, techno capitalism and said, that's all this thing is, forever.

A (23:22)

Talk about the idea, Dave, that when we are feeling stuck and desperate like this, many of us look for a single big solution that can get us unstuck.

B (23:32)

You know, there's this magical idea that there is this one place I really deserve to be, that my special calling, my special place in the world. What is the universe inviting me to do? Or where is my passion? All these different narratives come around. There's this. There's this lovely idea that I will find it, which either has no compromise or just tiny little compromises and really lights up the dashboard of my soul and makes me feel like I am in the right place, doing the right thing. This is what I was made for. And then, and then only do I deserve to be happy and feel like I'm being my authentic self? And that almost never really happened.

A (24:10)

I understand that Sonia did this. She basically decided that she was going to make a radical change in this career that she was unhappy with.

B (24:18)

Yeah, she really wanted to make a jump. And she was particularly attracted to something radically different because it really wanted to feel different. And a number of her friends were in the process of going up to the San Juan Islands and jumping into working together and revitalizing an old farm and making it an organic farm. So maybe I can just go back to the land and. And have a personal experience and join this commune of organic farmers. And that's. That's what's really going to work for me. We don't really know how that all worked out for her, but there's a very similar story. Another young man, you know, who was highly successful in hate technology, stopped out and went to try to start an artist commune. Actually bought a property in a rural area, brought artists in. Like, we're going to have this creative environment. It's going to be great. And did that for about two years. And then that was lovely. And then realized all it is is radically different. I don't even really like this. This isn't that interesting. At the end of the day, these people are kind of boring because all they want to talk about is this one little narrow view about art. And what I fell for was the radical shift. And radical shifts are radical, but that radicalism doesn't last very long. And you're still stuck with waking up being you living in the world. Is this the life I want to be in?

A (25:28)

Let's look at another dysfunctional belief that gets in the way of our happiness. This one is about the idea that if we don't feel good about doing what, doing, the solution is to double down, work harder, and grind. Now, of course, there is a vast amount of research that finds that hard work is strongly correlated with success. But I want to talk about the misguided idea we have that more is always better. Can you talk about your own life choices here, Dave? When your first kid was born, you were. I don't know how to put this kindly. You were a workaholic.

B (25:59)

Yeah, it really is. Well, if this is good, more is better. You know, the psychologists call this hedonic treadmill. This is how addiction works. You know, how much is enough? A little bit more. And so what I was trying to do was trying to be a successful business person. So I was growing rapidly and getting more responsibility. And, you know, having one kid is a good idea. Let's have more. So by this time, I've got three kids, you know, and I've got. So I've got twice as big a family and about five times as big a job. And of course, my obligation just do everything well. And I'm not. It takes me about 75 hours a week to do that job. I learned how to operate on three to four hours of sleep a night, which was A bit of a disaster. And then I had a severe comeuppance. One Saturday morning about 9 o', clock, I'm sitting in the family room drinking a cup of coffee and I heard my then 3 year old son Robbie say to his mother, mom, can we play with dad today or he just gonna fall asleep in the chair again.

A (26:59)

Wow.

B (26:59)

And I went, oh my God. When I was Robbie's age, my dad was gone because he died. When Robbie's Robbie's age, his dad's gone because he's asleep. You know, a corpse, a sleeping guy, about the same thing. And I suddenly, I had this epiphany. Oh my God, I've got to fix this. It's not working.

A (27:35)

You know, we had Lidy Klotz on Hidden Brains some years ago and that episode has stuck with me ever since. And his thesis is that whenever we're trying to do something in our lives, our instinctive approach is always to add, to do something more, to increase what we're doing. To add the extra note in a score of music, to add the extra ingredient in a, in a dish that we're cooking. To always think of addition rather than subtraction. Whereas very often it is subtraction that gets us to the person and the place we want to be.

B (28:09)

It is indeed, you know, Georgia o', Keeffe, an artist, that it's in elimination that things become available. The biggest decision you make as an artist is to decide what not to include. It's about getting more out of. In fact, probably the life you're already in is full of more meaning making, full of more aliveness. If you have the tricks, the wherewithal, in particular the mindsets necessary to see it, to attend to it, and to get it from it. So we really want to free people up. We want people to be free, to get what's already there.

A (28:47)

The poet Mary Oliver famously asked, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? It's a wonderful question. It can prompt us to dream big, to ask if our ambitions are equal to our potential. But it's also the kind of question that can make us feel that whatever we do is not enough. If one lifetime cannot contain all that we can do, surely our hopes and dreams will always be far greater than our accomplishments. Doesn't that set us up for a lifetime of feeling like we are not measuring up, not doing enough for a lifetime of unhappiness when we come back? How to root our dreams and ambitions in the soil of what is possible? You're listening to Hidden Brain I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Sleep Number. Life changes. Your mattress should too. Sleep Number's new collections are designed for personalized comfort that evolves with you as your body, health and lifestyle change. You can adjust firmness anytime for lasting support. It's the Everything on Sale Memorial Day event from Sleep Number. Every bed and base is on sale now. Visit a Sleep Number store near you or learn more@sleepnumber.com

B (30:15)

America's Best Network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out plus our five year price guarantee and now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best Mobile Network based on analysis by Oogle of speed test intelligence data 2H2025 bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee. On talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.

A (30:47)

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Have you ever felt stuck in life? Even when you are doing work that was important and useful? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Send the audio file to us using the email address feedbackiddenbrain.org use the subject line stuck again. That's feedbackiddenbrain.org we all make plans, set goals and chase after what we believe will bring us happiness. But then, almost inevitably things don't go the way we expect. Life doesn't work out the way we imagined. What if the problem isn't us or even the vagaries of life, but the way we are approaching our goals? Dave Evans is co author with Bill Burnett of How to Live a Meaningful Life using Design Thinking to Unlock purpose, joy and flow every day. He argues that thinking like a designer can help us establish the foundations of a good life. Dave, you've taught design thinking for many years. You've come on the show before to talk about this idea for listeners who are not familiar with this approach. What is design thinking?

B (32:10)

Well, design thinking is first of all the relatively new, about 15 or 20 year old nomenclature. The name we have for a process that was originally conceived at Stanford going back to 1963 called Human Centered Design HCD. We renamed it design thinking about 20 years ago makes it a little more accessible, more accurate really. And all it is is a methodology to innovatively come up with ideas and solutions to problems that are not easily solved. Problems where you don't know what you're looking for until you find it. And when you find it, it's so unique to the context and the persons involved. It's not replicatable, and it changes over time. And so design thinking is an approach to, number one, understanding the problem you're working on and what you might try to do about it, and then having ideas that turn into prototypes, experiments to learn your way forward and see what might actually work. And then you can implement something that actually is feasible. So what Bill and I did starting 20 years ago is we took those ideas about designing a future thing you've never done before into designing ourselves, not just designing products. And that's turned out to be a pretty interesting conversation.

A (33:24)

Hmm. So one of the imperatives of design thinking is to grapple with problems at the right scale. So when we ask ourselves, what is the meaning of life? You say, that could be an interesting question, but that might be a very bad design question. Can you explain why?

B (33:42)

Yeah. We say problem finding precedes problem solving. And one of the reasons many efforts fail is you're working on the wrong thing. Very often you're working on too big a thing or the wrong thing. And so trying to answer that one ultimate existential question, what is the meaning of my life? What will I be able to say on my deathbed and be satisfied with, that is a really tall bar. And frankly, we don't know how to design for that because it takes the whole life to answer it. So we like working on answerable, doable problems. And the better question is not what's the meaning of life? But how might I live in a more meaningful life now? And that's what we're trying to help people do.

A (34:31)

Let's talk about some of the ways that design thinking can make the question of life's meaningfulness more achievable, more doable. You point to a number of different design principles that can help break down this question. The first is something that you call fully engaged and calmly detached. What do you mean by this, Dave?

B (34:49)

What does it mean to have the mind of a designer? Designers who think this way look at the world a little bit differently. So fully engaged and calmly detached is this aspirational mindset that says, I want to be entirely available, entirely engaged with what I'm doing. That's right in front. I'm having a conversation with this incredibly lovely person named Shankar Vedantam on this fabulous conversation called Hidden Brain with a bunch of thoughtful people. Am I paying attention or am I thinking about what I'm going to have with dinner with my friend who's staying over at the house tonight? So I want to be fully engaged, but I also want to be calmly detached because there's this thing called the outcome of what I'm doing that in truth, I have no control over. At the end of the day, doing the right thing is all I can do, the best I can possibly do. So I can control my participation, but I cannot control the outcome. And it turns out those two things then become competitors. If I get too wound up in worrying about the Is this going to go well? Is Shankar going to like the episode? I wonder what the listeners will think. If I'm too distracted by my involvement in the outcome, I'm too attached to that outcome. It's going to get in the way of my participation. So the best way to be fully engaged is to let go of the outcome and then we'll take things as they come.

A (36:08)

And of course, this happens at an interpersonal level all the time. Someone gives us feedback. The feedback is critical, and instead of listening to it or exploring it with curiosity, we get defensive because we now are saying, someone is criticizing what I'm doing. Someone doesn't like the outcomes of what I'm doing. I'm working so hard, I'm a good person. And now suddenly your ego gets caught up with the problem, and now you can't listen to the advice for what it actually is.

B (36:33)

Yeah, being all committed to the outcome that you have in mind, frankly, completely takes you out of what you're already doing. It's not that I don't care. It's that I'm not so committed to it and involved to it that I now am staking my reputation on it. I'm staking my identity, and now I've got a psychological attachment to it, and it's all about me. So what it really boils down to is recognizing that it's not about you all the time.

A (37:09)

Many years ago, the researcher Ron Howard talked about the quality of the decision versus the quality of the outcome. And in some ways, that has bearing on what we've been just talking about. Dave, can you explain this idea?

B (37:22)

It turns out thinking, well, making a good decision is a good idea, and if we could run, you know, the same decision in a thousand parallel universes and watch all the vagaries, you know, the better decisions would probably work out more often than the bad decisions. But let's be clear, I'm not in charge of the future. You can influence as best you possibly can, but let's have an honest and humble perspective on ourselves. I'm doing the best I can, but that doesn't mean it's going to work.

A (37:52)

So in some ways what I'm hearing you say is that when it comes to the outcome of our decisions, acknowledging them with some humility means that I can plan for a beautiful wedding. But I might want to tell myself it could rain that day. The caterers might get a flat tire on their way to the venue. The venue itself might burn to the ground. There are many things that are outside my control, and acknowledging them at the outset might in some ways limit my expectations and frustrations when things don't go the way I want.

B (38:21)

Absolutely. What we're trying to do is I'm trying to give reality its best possible chance of turning out the way I hope. And then once I'm doing that, then I release the fact that then I get to fully participate in the reality that is actually going to occur. So if indeed I've planned this thing and it rains that day, well, I can spend all afternoon going, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, you know, and being mad at the weatherman who owed me a sunny afternoon, or just go, okay, and what can we do with this? You know, there's this phrase making the best of a bad situation that's really unfair. The situation doesn't think of itself as bad. The rain's not going, I'm here to ruin your party. You know, the rain's just falling, so it's really making the best of the situation. All we're ever trying to do is make the best of the situation.

A (39:20)

Another design principle you talk about is story crafting. What is story crafting, Dave?

B (39:25)

Well, there's the old line that life is a story we tell ourselves, and the psychologists will remind us. Now that's true. Your internal narrative really matters. And so story crafting is about picking carefully the story that you are telling yourself and living into, because it has a profound effect both on the life you live and the quality of your experience of it. Now, of course, that story has to be true. It can't be a fantasy story. We're not fans of magical thinking, but we are big fans of picking the story that's truest and most generative to give you the best possible chance of becoming fully alive.

A (40:05)

You and others have looked at the role that story crafting plays among first generation college students. Tell me about this work and what you find.

B (40:13)

Well, you know, Stanford is Of course, an elite university. But what people lose track of is, you know, 80% of our students are on financial aid, so they're not prep school kids. And by no means are they all highly resourced. We have lots of first generation students or under resourced students who really suffer the imposter syndrome. Like, man, do I really belong here. And there are a group of people in the education school and psychology department who work on intervening in ways that might be helpful to these students. And one of the results was it turned out as short as a 15 minute intervention with a first generation student on the narrative they're telling themselves can have a transformative effect that lasts not only all four years of college, but five or ten years after. And the narrative simply is not, yeah, you're under resourced and all those guys who went to the prep school are going to kick your butt. That story is then replaced by the reason you're here is you're highly capable, you can do this work and there are lots of resources to help you that you can avail yourself of. And if that story, that alternate narrative is offered to that first gen student by another first gen student two or three years older than them for whom it has worked, they believe it. And literally that 15 minutes, their performance changes permanently.

A (41:42)

I want to talk about another design principle. But first I want to talk about some of your own experience as a designer. When you were an undergraduate engineering student, Dave, you were also a firefighter, and one of the first products you designed was a fire hydrant wrench. What is a fire hydrant wrench?

B (42:01)

Well, if you ever take a look at your neighborhood fire hydrant, there's a little, you know, cover over the nozzle where the water comes out on one side, and on the other side of that thing there's a little post sticking out that's actually the valve that opens and closes the hydrant. And if you look at it, it's in the shape of a pentagon, it's in the shape of a five sided pentagon. And the reason is because we don't want people opening fire hydrants who don't know what they're doing. And so when I went into mechanical engineering and went into the prl, the Product Realization lab, which you might call the machine shop, I walked in there with a great big chunk of brass and the idea was to mill that thing into a fire hydrant wrench that had one of those pentagon things on it on the one hand and a kind of special curvy thing on the other to take the COVID off. Because you need one of those if you're fighting a fire.

A (42:49)

Tell me what happened as you were trying to mold this brass thingy into a wrench. Did it all go smoothly?

B (42:56)

It went very unsmoothly because I didn't know what I was doing. I'd never done anything like that before and never used the machine. Didn't know how to use a mill or a lathe or a. A high speed, you know, metal bandsaw. I never worked with anything that heavy before. I was completely inexperienced, you know, broke. Broke tools. I had to get more materials. And I had this idea in my head about this perfect wrench that I'd seen that was, you know, bought from a very expensive supplier. And then I finally realized what I was doing was, which is a metaphor for the rest of real life, is I'm trying to make a real thing. I'm trying to bring it into being. I'm trying to take something and allow something real, something finite, something limited, something constrained, something even with flaws in it, to come into being. And all that struggle with, you know, breaking parts. And what have you proved to me that this thing was going to be a compromise.

A (43:59)

You say that the way we craft physical objects can teach us something about how to craft and make meaningful moments out of the daily events of our lives. And you call this moment making. What do you mean by this term?

B (44:12)

Well, the thing about making anything is, of course, its limitation. And this goes back to one of our big reframes around the meaning question is what we call the scandal of particularity, which is there is no perfect fire hydrant wrench. There is no perfect birthday cake. There is no perfect conversation with chakra Vedanta. There's only the one I'm actually in. So thing one, in making something is recognizing its limitation. All ultimates are only really found in the particular. And they reflect that. They're not the fullness of it, but they reflect it honestly. And that isn't a problem. It's not, oh, I fell short again. It's not not the perfect fire hydrant wrench. It's the real one. All the hours I spent making this thing, it started with a great big block of brass and it ended up being a very specific thing. Is it very much like sculpture, you know, like, you know, Michelangelo releasing the angel from the marble. I'm in the process of releasing the wrench from the block. And if all I want is the end result, then everything I did up to that simply doesn't matter. And every mistake I make is in the way. And a Problem as opposed to yes, I need to pay enough attention that this thing will actually work. When it's all said and done, that matters. However, was I present at the time? Was I actually noticing and learning how to use the machine tools? Was I noticing how a sharpened tool works differently than a dull tool? Did I understand the difference between brass and steel? Did I get the feel that I actually feel? And you can, if you do this right, you can feel the metal cutting in your hands. And do you understand that experience? And now I'm actually being a maker, not just I completed making. And so if everything's just the outcome, when it's all done, by the way, the second I finish making that wrench, how long does the moment of being done last? A microsecond? Now it's passed. So what's next? You know, and I missed it. I missed the whole darn thing. You know, people very often miss the whole darn thing because all they wanted was the outcome and then it's over.

A (46:26)

I mean, philosophers and spiritual traditions have told us for centuries that we have to live in the moment. And in some ways that's what I hear you saying.

B (46:35)

It's exactly what we're saying. I mean, Ram Dass said it a long time ago, you know, be here now, because at the end of the day, that's the essence of it. We call it the flow world, not the transaction world. The transaction was finish the wrench, make it available on the fire truck. That's a transaction. But the moment was standing at the lathe and actually experiencing how a cutting tool and a piece of metal interact. That's entering into the fullness of the moment. So moment making turns out to be the critical task of people who want to design more meaning in their life. And particularly the kinds of meaning that can transcend not just impact making, which is wonderful, but hard and short lived. These moments full of potential, meaningful experience abound in front of us. So the number one skill of a meaning making designer is moment making.

A (47:38)

I'm also reflecting, Dave, that the process that you are describing to build a fire hydrant ranch also applies in some ways to interpersonal contexts and emotional situations. When we are working on something with someone, we are working as part of a team. When we are managing someone, when we are dealing with a boss, when we are, you know, thinking about a child or a partner or a spouse, all of these involve relationships that are under construction. And in fact they're under construction all the time. And when you have that mindset, you're not trying to Think about, okay, there is a perfect place I'm going to get to with this other person. And once we get to that place, we're going to be happy forever. We're going to live happily forever, as the fairy tales say. In some ways, it takes the pressure off the outcome and gives us more enjoyment in the process.

B (48:28)

Absolutely. And one of the little tools we've invented for that is the got to get to shift. When you're thinking transactionally, you're in the transactional world. It's all about getting it done. So I've got to get this thing done. I've got to get through this meeting. I've got to get these people to agree, I've got to sign this contract. I've got to get these tasks assigned, whatever that might be, as opposed to I get to participate in this process. There's a lovely illustration that I think I have permission to use. Our editor who's working with us on this book is, you know, she's working at home, remote one day, and her child is in the other room making a bunch of noise while she's about to go onto a zoom call, you know, and she started saying to herself, I've got to find a way to get this kid to quiet down while I'm working. And then she suddenly remembered, oh, yeah, she had just read the got to get to idea in the manuscript and said, no, no, no, I get to work at home now, which means I get to be in the presence of. Of the effervescent sound coming out of this very alive child. I still get to work in the presence of that. I can put on my headphones and solve that problem easily. I'm so lucky that I get to be here and be a part of that. Not how do I. I've got to find a way to shut the kid up. And she said, and that took about two seconds to have that change of mind, and everything changed. So that's what we're looking for. We're looking for see it a different way and have a surprising change of your psychic experience of your own life.

A (49:53)

And, of course, many of us discover this too late, Dave. You know, when we lose someone in our lives, we now say, you know, I would give anything to have that person back with us. Even though when they were with us, we were often frustrated by them or irritated by them or wishing that they would say or do something different. And of course, we recognize that we are actually happy with all those things when we don't have that person anymore.

B (50:14)

Yeah, you know, I had this experience in my twenties, in my career, where I suddenly realized that I was living entirely in the future that I would never get to. And then there was a time I was talking with an intensive care unit nurse about this problem of always the next thing, always the next thing. You know, you get there and then get the next goal, then the next goal, and frankly, you're never really enjoying the meal. You're just trying to get it over with. And she said, oh, yeah, yeah, we have a term for that. We call it destination sickness. I go, what the heck is destination sickness? She goes, oh, yeah. You know, here in the ic, particularly at Stanford, we have all these highly accomplished people. And it was always, you know, when I finish the degree and then when I get the grad degree and then I want to get the good job, and then I make partner, and then I make my first million, and it's always, that next thing will make me happy. And she said, and some of the people here, like the ones in their mid-50s who've burned their heart out and now they're actually going to die. There's nothing more we can do for them. They suddenly realize there is no next thing. And then they look back at all the things they ran through and they realized they missed the whole thing. And frankly, then she said, and most of them die in despair and realize it's too late. I mean, I shuddered at the time. I said, oh my God. She goes, oh, yeah, it's really rough. By the way, here's a tip. Don't do that.

A (51:52)

Are the challenges we face in designing our lives the same as we go through different stages of our lives? Turns out they are not. Designing your life when you are a high school or college student is a very different challenge than designing your life when you're in the thick of a career or when you're contemplating retirement. In our companion episode, available exclusively for our subscribers on Hidden Brain plus, we look at how different design strategies apply to different stages of our lives. If you're already a subscriber, that episode is available right now in this podcast feed. It's titled Seasons of Meaning. If you're not yet a subscriber, please consider signing up. Go to support.hiddenbrain.org if you're using an Apple device, go to Apple Co HiddenBrain. You can get a free trial in both places and you'll instantly have access to all our subscriber only content. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org or Apple Co Hiddenbrain. Dave Evans and Bill Burnett are co authors of how to Live a Meaningful Life Using Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy and Flow every day. Dave, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

B (53:12)

Thanks Shankar. It's great to be here.

A (53:19)

Do you have questions or comments about how to live a more meaningful life? Have you felt stuck in life but then found a way forward? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with a Hidden Brain audience, or if you have a question or comment about design thinking, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Email the audio file to us using the email address feedbackiddenbrain.org use the subject line Stuck again. That email address is feedbackiddenbrain.org Our conversation with Dave Evans continues next week. Many of us think of meaning as something we find, but meaning is really something we design. By staying curious, experimenting and reframing our challenges, we can create lives that feel purposeful and grounded instead of rushed and depleted. In our conversation next week, we focus on what may be the most difficult challenge in designing our lives. It isn't about where we want to go, it's about accepting where we are right now. Please tune in for it. It's titled Radical Acceptance. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy, Paul Kristin Wong, Laura Kwerell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our Executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's Executive editor. If you like this episode, please share it with a couple of friends. Word of mouth recommendations are the way most people find their way to our show. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you.

B (55:14)

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A (55:42)

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