The Empathy Gym

Summary

Hidden Brain: "The Empathy Gym" (May 18, 2026)

Host: Shankar Vedantam
Guests: Jamil Zaki (psychologist, Stanford University, author of "The War for Building Empathy in a Fractured World"), Leslie John (psychologist, Harvard University, expert on self-disclosure)

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Overview

This episode explores the forces that shape and challenge our capacity for empathy in today’s hyperconnected, often confrontational world. Host Shankar Vedantam speaks with Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki about empathy’s psychological underpinnings, why it can be both healing and hazardous, and how we might strengthen it—individually and collectively. The episode also features listener stories and practical guidance from Harvard’s Leslie John about the dynamics of vulnerability and self-disclosure, weaving together research, lived experience, and actionable advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Performance Art, Pain, and the Limits of Online Empathy

[00:00–05:54]

• Wafa Bilal’s Paintball Installation:
  In 2007, Iraqi artist Wafa Bilal spent a month in a live-streamed room, inviting Internet users to shoot him with a paintball gun as a public reflection on violence and voyeurism.

  • “I was shot at 70,000 times…80 million hits on the Internet from 128 countries.” (Wafa Bilal, 00:50, paraphrased)
  • Raises questions: Why do strangers cause harm from a distance? Does technology erode or merely reshape empathy?

• Stranger Empathy and Anonymity:
  The experiment underscores the double-edged sword of the digital age: technology’s capacity to both connect and dehumanize.

  • “Imagine an entire nation living like this.” (Jamil Zaki quoting a viewer, 03:29)

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The Science of Empathy: What Is It, Where Does It Come From?

[06:07–13:29]

• Personal Roots of Empathy
  Jamil Zaki recounts his parents’ divorce as a crucible that forced him to “work out” empathy as a child navigating two very different value systems.

  • “I always think of my parents’ divorce as an empathy gym for me that forced me to work out my ability to care about and understand other people.” (Jamil Zaki, 08:38)

• Three Components of Empathy:
  (Described using a familiar scenario)

  • Emotional empathy: Feeling what others feel.
  • Cognitive empathy: Understanding what and why others feel.
  • Empathic concern: Compassion, the desire to help.
  • “It’s almost like these are different muscle groups, and you need all the muscle groups to be functioning…” (Shankar, 12:48)
  • “I love that analogy. Yeah, that’s a perfect way of putting it.” (Jamil Zaki, 12:59)

• Benefits of Empathy:

  • Empathic partners and doctors foster better outcomes for others and themselves.
  • Giving empathy lowers stress; children who accurately read emotions are more socially adjusted. (Jamil Zaki, 09:46)

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The Paradox of Modern Isolation

[13:29–17:54]

• Urban and Digital Living:
  “We’re becoming more urban and more solitary.…We interact in more transactional ways.” (Jamil Zaki, 13:29)

  • Online anonymity and less face-to-face interaction blunt empathy triggers.
  • Study: People dehumanize others more when reading text vs. hearing voices. (15:12)

• Irony of Connection:

  • “We see more people than we ever did in human history, but we know fewer of them.” (Jamil Zaki, 17:18)

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Trauma, Tribalism, and the Double-edged Sword of Empathy

[19:52–27:31]

• How Suffering Shapes Empathy:
  Trauma can either constrict or expand our empathic capacities.

  • “There’s a lot of research…on what psychologists call altruism born of suffering.” (Jamil Zaki, 19:52)
  • Supportive communities make outward empathy more likely post-trauma.

• Empathy’s Biases:
  Paul Bloom argues that “empathy tends to be parochial and…biased.”

  • Oxytocin increases in-group empathy, decreases out-group empathy.
  • Zaki’s take: Empathy can be practiced and broadened if we recognize its tribal tendencies. (25:00)

• Empathy in Policing:
  Officers highly empathic to their peers (esp. in misconduct cases) may lack flexibility to understand outsiders’ perspectives.

  • “If we want to open ourselves up…, maybe what we should start doing is…recognizing if we're empathizing so much with our group that we'll be unable to be flexible emotionally.” (Jamil Zaki, 26:43)

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The Hazards and Avoidance of Empathy

[27:31–32:39]

• Empathy Burnout:
  Empathy can create stress and “compassion fatigue” among professionals:

  • 50% of oncologists report intense heartbreak; therapists avoid scheduling depressed patients late to protect their own mood. (27:52–28:21)
  • Defensive dehumanization: Health professionals may shut off empathy for self-preservation. (29:29)

• Avoiding Empathy:
  Classic study: People would cross the street to avoid a charitable solicitation manned by someone in a wheelchair—empathic triggers provoke avoidance.

  “People who identify as empaths…are crippled by their overabundance of care for other people and... avoid busy cities overall just because they don’t want to be inundated with other people’s pain.” (Jamil Zaki, 31:00)

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The "Empathy Gym": Training and Growth

[34:26–43:31]

• Wafa Bilal’s Gallery—Hope Amid the Onslaught:
  After weeks of being virtually attacked, Wafa was heartened by strangers who visited in person to help—bringing him a lamp, socks, and muffins, or acting as “virtual human shields” online.

  “The whole idea is reinforce my belief in humanity…Thank you very much for keeping the hope alive.” (Wafa Bilal, 37:38)

• Can Empathy be Strengthened?

  • VR Simulations: Experiencing homelessness in virtual reality increased participants' real-world empathy and policy support one month later. (38:27–40:11)

  • Acting and Fiction: Training as an actor deepens empathy; reading fiction (vs. nonfiction) improves empathic skills, especially for those different from ourselves.

    “Embodiment is like a performance enhancing drug for empathy, if you will.” (Jamil Zaki, 41:05)

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Redefining In-groups: The Manchester United Study

[43:31–46:28]

• Fans helped a Manchester United fan in need but ignored a Liverpool fan—until researchers primed them to see themselves as soccer fans, not just Man U fans—then, empathy extended across that previous “enemy” line.

  “All of us have many different selves inside us at any given moment, and each self carries with it a different group, maybe of a different size.” (Jamil Zaki, 45:40)

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Listener Stories: Vulnerability & Self-Disclosure

(with psychologist Leslie John)
[48:30–96:42, selected highlights]

• The Power of Sharing:
  Listener Meng lost her hearing; only after sharing this secret with a friend did she get urgent advice that saved her hearing.

  “If I didn't share my secret, ... I would probably not be able to hear on my left ear anymore. ... When you have people you trust, you can feel you are able to be vulnerable…” (Meng, 51:15)

• Reciprocity and Trust:

  • Disclosure invites reciprocal honesty and builds trust across friendships, workplaces, and communities. (54:34)
  • Not sharing enough (TLI – “too little information”) is often a bigger problem than oversharing.

• Disclosure Failures and Regret:

  • Reciprocity fails occur when vulnerability is met with indifference or silence rather than empathy.
  • Importance of explicitly stating emotional needs when disclosing.

• Curating Audiences and Risks:

  • Disclosure must consider power dynamics, context, shared values, and recipient openness.
  • Sharing secrets with those who have common lived experiences (e.g., support groups) can be uniquely healing.

  “If you think of them as failures, that’s really demotivating. But try to think of them as what you learned.” (Leslie John, 85:55)

• Workplace & Power:

  • Be cautious about self-disclosure with those in power—sometimes it backfires or exposes values mismatches.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Empathy as Work:

  “Empathy saved me. Not because it was easy; it was work.” (Jamil Zaki, 08:38)

• On Empathy's Bias:

  “In essence, turning up people's empathy, in that case, means turning up their parochialism.” (Jamil Zaki, 23:53)

• When Empathy Hurts:

  “Empathy is hugely beneficial…but it can be an occupational hazard for the people who give it.” (Jamil Zaki, 27:52)

• On Fiction and Empathy:

  “Fiction is one of the most powerful ways to connect with people who are different from us…” (Jamil Zaki, 42:18)

• On Vulnerability:

  “The core benefit [of disclosure] is trust. When we open up to others… we’re implicitly saying, ‘I trust you…’” (Leslie John, 54:34)

• On Receiving Vulnerability:

  “When someone says that, think of it as a gift and say thank you for sharing that, like, truly…” (Leslie John, 67:40)

• On Empathy’s Limits:

  “Empathy at a deep level is the understanding that someone else’s world is just as real as yours.” (Jamil Zaki, 48:11)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:00–05:54: Wafa Bilal’s paintball performance and the paradox of online anonymity
• 06:07–13:29: Jamil Zaki’s empathy roots, definitions, and science
• 13:29–17:54: Urban/digital isolation’s effects on empathy
• 19:52–27:31: Empathy after trauma, Paul Bloom’s critique, and in-group bias
• 27:52–32:39: Empathy burnout and avoidance
• 34:26–37:59: Wafa Bilal’s experience with kindness and cruelty
• 38:27–42:18: Training empathy with VR and fiction
• 43:31–46:28: In-group/out-group empathy—Manchester United study
• 48:30–51:15: Listener Meng’s story—vulnerability leads to help
• 54:34–62:48: Disclosure, reciprocity, and emotional data
• 66:38–69:43: Listener Jeremy—impact of empathy vs. judgment in confession
• 79:57–91:05: Self-disclosure for connection, risks, manipulation
• 92:48–96:42: Practical techniques for disclosure and meta-communication

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Practical Takeaways

• Empathy is both innate and trainable—nurtured by understanding and practice, hindered by anonymity, tribalism, and burnout.
• Online space is a double-edged sword—it can both incite cruelty and enable kindness depending on how we use it.
• Empathy can hurt the empathizer—prolonged exposure to suffering (in professions or life) requires healthy boundaries and strategies.
• Fiction, acting, and immersive experience are practical avenues to “exercise” empathic muscles.
• Self-disclosure is powerful but nuanced—trust and reciprocity are enhanced by wisely choosing when, how, and with whom to share.
• Receiving vulnerability with validation, not just solutions, is crucial for building trust and resilience.
• Redefining in-groups (through broader identities) allows us to extend empathy beyond tribal boundaries.

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Final Reflections

Empathy, like physical strength, isn’t static—it must be exercised, stretched, and sometimes rested. Modern life—crowded, digital, competitive—often works against spontaneous empathy, but with deliberate practice and openness, we can still train the muscles that connect us to others. Both individual chances for connection and broader societal divides hinge on our willingness to be vulnerable, listen, and “work out” our empathy in daily life.

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For further listening:

• Hidden Brain episodes “Keeping Secrets” and “Coming Clean” (on vulnerability and self-disclosure)
• Books: Jamil Zaki’s The War for Building Empathy in a Fractured World; Leslie John’s Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing

Transcript

[Shankar Vedantam]

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In May 2007, an artist living in Chicago moved into a new place. It was a small room with white walls. The interior design was minimalist. There was a bed, a desk, a computer, a lamp and a paintball guy. Affixed to the gun was a webcam. It livestreamed the room to the Internet. Anyone could look in and anyone could take control of the gun, aim and fire at all hours of the day and night. The paintball gun would spring to life and begin shooting yellow pellets into the room. Some hit the walls or the furniture. Some hit the artist.

[Jamil Zaki]

I was shot at 70,000 times and

[Shankar Vedantam]

I received 80 million hits on the Internet from 128 countries. Wafa Bilal spent one whole month in the room, targeted tens of thousands of times by random strangers around the world. Why would he choose to do this? Wafa was born and raised in Iraq. He came to the US in the early 90s. I live this duality of living in two places.

[Jamil Zaki]

One is a comfort zone of United

[Shankar Vedantam]

States and the other one is the

[Leslie John]

conflict zone in Iraq where my family friends live.

[Shankar Vedantam]

In 2004, WAFA says one of his brothers was killed in an airstrike.

[Leslie John]

One of my brother Haji was killed in air to ground missile and I

[Jamil Zaki]

didn't know what to do.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Wafa is a performance artist and he wanted to engage others in the conversation that was running through his mind. Three years after his brother's death, he got an idea.

[Leslie John]

I said I want to lock myself

[Shankar Vedantam]

in the gallery space for 30 days

[Jamil Zaki]

and I'm going to build a robot connected to the Internet and the robot shoot paintball and viewers online could direct that gun and shoot at me.

[Leslie John]

It's day 16. My body is just getting weak by the day.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I thought I felt better. As the days went by, Wafa started to feel crushed by the experience.

[Leslie John]

It's late night,

[Shankar Vedantam]

feel extremely tired, but

[Leslie John]

I'm afraid to go to bed.

[Shankar Vedantam]

In some ways, Wafa was attempting to do what civil disobedience movements around the world have done. He was deliberately putting himself in harm's way in order to draw attention to a problem and effect change. I have United States, I have Denmark, I have Ireland, have the uk, I

[Leslie John]

have France again, Canada.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So it's not one place.

[Leslie John]

It is almost global shooting and I

[Shankar Vedantam]

don't know,

[Jamil Zaki]

somebody said imagine an entire nation living like this.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Why did strangers who knew nothing about Wafa take it upon themselves to hurt him? Do technology and modern life and the anonymity they offer make us less caring as human beings on today's show Building empathy in a connected and confrontational world. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Lily on this show. It's fascinating to discuss the unseen forces shaping the human brain. Consider conditions like Alzheimer's disease, where changes in the brain may develop up to 20 years before noticing symptoms. Talk to your doctor to understand your potential risk factors for dementia due to Alzheimer's disease and ask for a cognitive assessment. Visit brainhealthmatters.com for more information and resources. Support for Hidden brain comes from JustWorks. JustWorks helps small businesses support their teams with everything from HR to to offering better benefits. Whether you're hiring, automating payroll, expanding globally, or tackling compliance, JustWorks offers 24. 7 support from an actual human and with transparent pricing, you always know what you're paying for. Go to justworks.com to learn more. They do your human resources right so you can do right by your people. Justworks for your people Summer means more

[Jamil Zaki]

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[Shankar Vedantam]

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[Jamil Zaki]

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[Shankar Vedantam]

Jamil Zaki is a psychologist at Stanford University. He's the author of the book the War for Building Empathy in a Fractured World. Jameel, welcome to Hidden Brain.

[Jamil Zaki]

Thanks for having me.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You have a very powerful story about how you came to be interested in the subject of empathy. Tell me about your parents, where they are from, how they met, what they went through, and what you learned from the experience.

[Jamil Zaki]

So it turns out that in the early 1970s, Washington State University in Pullman had a program where they granted full scholarships for graduate studies to students from the world's poorest nations. My mother received the scholarship from Peru, and my father did not receive the scholarship but nonetheless came to Washington State from Pakistan. So they traveled from Lima and Lahore, these two massive cities, to the sleepy town of Pullman, where they fell in love. When I think about my parents, I think the biggest thing that they had in common was their sense of foreignness in the U.S. they sort of took comfort in each other in a place that neither of them understood. But as they grew more comfortable with the US and more acclimated to it, they Grew less comfortable with each other, and they divorced. They started splitting up when I was 8, but didn't finish until I was 12. And theirs was a long and acrimonious split. And I am their only child. And so a lot of my childhood was spent kind of bouncing around between their houses. And it really felt like I was bouncing between parallel universes because their priorities and values and fears are really as far apart as their hometowns. So I would often feel confused. You know, as a small child, I would try to, when I was with my mom, figure out the rules that governed her heart and mind and make them true for myself. But then when I would go to my dad's house, those same rules would stop working. And it was just very confusing. And it felt, I think, to all three of us, like I would really have to choose one of my parents and give up on really knowing the other. But I knew that I had to try for all of our sake. So I did. And I kind of kept working at it and eventually got better. Learned to tune myself to my parents, different frequencies. And that kind of saved me as a kid. I think empathy saved me. Not because it was easy, it was work. I always think of my parents divorce as an empathy gym for me that forced me to work out my ability to care about and understand other people.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And you, as you said, described this as an empathy gym. Were there times when you failed to show them empathy? I mean, I must imagine that as a small child, it must have been very difficult in many ways to comprehend what was happening and why these two adults were fighting over you. And each was demanding that you see things from their point of view.

[Jamil Zaki]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of the big realizations for me as a kid was realizing that both of them were in pain. I think as a child, it's very easy to focus on your own perspective and what you're going through and to blame others, especially adults. I think when I realized that my parents were both struggling just like I was, it actually made me feel kinship towards them and made it easier to understand that I could connect with both of them, in fact, because what we were going through wasn't that different.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Talk a little bit about the benefits of empathy. There's been a lot of work that looks at what happens when people receive empathy from their partners, for example, or from their doctors.

[Jamil Zaki]

Oh yeah. I mean, in many cases, empathy benefits all parties involved. So for instance, patients of empathic doctors are more satisfied with their care, but are also more likely to follow doctors recommendations, which is important for things like preventative care. And spouses of empathic partners are happier in their marriages. But one thing that I think people don't realize as much is that people who experience empathy for others also benefit. It's not just receiving it, but giving it helps us too. Feeling empathy for others reduces our stress. And adolescents who are able to pick out other people's emotions accurately are better adjusted during middle school.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Now, parents everywhere recognize the value of empathy. We have courses and classes that try and teach children empathy. I came by this clip on Sesame street featuring the actor Mark Ruffalo and the character Murray. Take a listen to the clip.

[Leslie John]

Murray, what did I tell you about

[Shankar Vedantam]

that time when I lost my favorite teddy bear? Oh, no, it was. This is very sad.

[Leslie John]

Did you love that teddy bear?

[Shankar Vedantam]

I loved that teddy bear.

[Leslie John]

Oh, I can imagine exactly how you feel. It's really sad. Feeling it makes me want to cry like this. It was sad.

[Jamil Zaki]

It was so sad. But you know what? What? You know what empathy is?

[Leslie John]

I do.

[Jamil Zaki]

That was empathy.

[Leslie John]

What? You could understand how I was feeling,

[Shankar Vedantam]

exactly how I was feeling and understood it.

[Leslie John]

That's empathy. I get it now.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Jameel, you've used a similar kind of scenario to explain empathy. Someone's talking with a friend. The friend gets a phone call, or Walk me through the rest of that scenario and the three components that you've identified that make up empathy.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah. So again, imagine that you're sitting with a friend having lunch, and they receive a phone call, and whatever the person on the other side of the line says makes them visibly upset. You don't know what's wrong, but your friend starts to cry and it's obvious that something is wrong. Well, as you see this, a bunch of things might happen inside you first, you might become upset yourself, sort of vicariously catching their feeling. That's what psychologists often call emotional empathy. You might also try to figure out what's wrong, what they're feeling, and why. That's what we call cognitive empathy. And if you're a good friend, at least you probably will feel concern for what they're going through and a desire for their well being to improve. That's what psychologists call empathic concern or. Or compassion. And even though these pieces of empathy sometimes go together, they also split apart in interesting ways. So, for instance, different brain systems support emotional and cognitive empathy and empathic concern. And different groups of people struggle with different flavors of empathy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

That's fascinating. It's almost like these are different muscle groups, and you need all the muscle groups to be functioning to in some Ways actualize your full capacity for empathy.

[Jamil Zaki]

I love that analogy. Yeah, that's a perfect way of putting it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

At the same time that parents and books and motivational speakers and faith traditions cite the value of empathy, many of us are living in ways that isolate us from the people around us. Among people 18 to 34, for example, 10 times as many people live alone today as did in 1950. I asked Jameel whether there's a link between going solo and the amount of empathy we feel for others.

[Jamil Zaki]

It's hard to say. You know, and I do want to be clear that in looking at any demographic trends over time and trying to link them to empathy decline, we're necessarily speculating. Right. There's no way to run an experiment where you have history occur multiple times and fiddle with different pieces of it to see what causes a decline in empathy. But certainly, you know, you can point to big shifts in the way that people live. And one of them is that we're becoming. Becoming more urban and more solitary. And when we interact with people, it's often in more transactional ways, right? Sort of. Some of the regular rituals that used to bring us into contact with other people often are giving way to more solitary pursuits. So there's some evidence, for instance, that anonymous interactions do not favor empathy. So I don't know. There's nothing data specifically on solitary living, but to the extent that living in a giant city but by yourself, where most of the people who you see are total strangers, there's some evidence that suggests that perhaps that might have an effect on our empathy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And of course, one of the other places where anonymity rules is the Internet. And when you look at some of the changes that have unfolded and the timetable of those changes, they do coincide, at least correlationally with the rise of Internet technologies. And I'm wondering, is there reason to imagine that there's a connection between these two things? That the connections we have with one another online and on Twitter or social media, where we often don't know whom we're communicating with or who's listening or who's not listening, could this in some ways be behind this decline in empathy?

[Jamil Zaki]

It certainly is possible. You know, I think that the Internet and social media, I don't think of them as inherently antisocial in a way. You can think of the Internet as humanity's greatest empathic opportunity ever. Right? We have the chance to connect with people around the world at any time on their own terms and respond with compassion. I mean, I think if you go back and read wired you know, 10 or 15 years ago, people were waxing poetic about the way that the Internet could bring us all together into a global community. I think in some obvious ways, that hasn't always occurred. And I think that has to do in part with some of the ways that we tend to use the Internet that might not be empathy positive. So, for instance, oftentimes online, we don't have a chance to see each other's faces and voices in sort of real time interactions, the kind of richness that we have when we hang out offline. Instead, we see avatars and strings of text. And those might not be great triggers for empathy. There's a great study by Juliana Schroeder and her colleagues where they had people describe their political opinions sort of in an audio recording. They then had a separate group of people listen to those audio recordings or read a transcript of them. And what they found was that people were more likely to dehumanize the person whose opinion they were reading about if they were only reading it, whereas if they were hearing the person's voice, they were less likely to dehumanize that individual. So it's almost as though we're leaving behind, when we go online, some of the cues that allow us to detect each other's real humanity.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And there's a deep irony there, isn't there, Jamil? I mean, when we live in these big cities, we're living cheek by jowl with lots of other people, but in some ways we're not connecting with them. And the same goes with the Internet. We have the capacity to connect with large numbers of other people, but we're connecting in often the superficial way instead of this deeper way.

[Jamil Zaki]

It is ironic, isn't it? I mean, in cities, for instance, we see more people than we ever did in human history, but we know fewer of them. And it almost is as though our interactions sort of favor a dehumanized perspective on each other. I mean, I know when I'm sort of stuck in traffic or trying to make my way down a crowded block in Manhattan, people become not people, but obstacles for me on my way. And I think that that's sort of the. The way that it can often feel in modern contexts.

[Shankar Vedantam]

When we come back, more on the signs of empathy and why being empathetic can sometimes be bad for you. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Lily. On this show, it's fascinating to discuss the unseen forces shaping the human brain. Consider conditions like Alzheimer's disease, where Changes in the brain may develop up to 20 years before noticing symptoms. Talk to your doctor to understand your potential risk factors for dementia due to Alzheimer's disease and ask for a cognitive assessment. Visit brainhealthmatters.com for more information and resources. Support for Hidden brain comes from LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire? They can help grow your business. LinkedIn's new hiring pro screens candidates for you, so instead of sorting through applicants, you spend time talking to only the right ones. Get started by posting your job for [e-mail] HB terms and conditions apply. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantan. Jameel Zaki is the author of the War for Building Empathy in a Fractured World. He conducts research on empathy at Stanford University. Jameel People who have been through terrible suffering can respond in different ways. Some people turn inward to avoid future pain, while others turn outward. They show empathy for the suffering of other people. I feel like I've seen research studies that show both these things. Can you talk about these studies and why people might go in one direction or another after they experience trauma?

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, you know, I think that we often think of trauma, you know, sort of things like being through a war or being assaulted or suffering a terrible injury as things that, again, as you as you put it nicely, sort of draw us into each other or even that trauma might perpetuate itself. We often hear about cycles of violence or the idea that hurt people, hurt people, and that's certainly true in some cases. But there's a lot of research that's actually much more hopeful on what psychologists call altruism born of suffering. This is the idea that sometimes when we've gone through great pain, that actually sort of opens us up to caring more about other people and their suffering. So there are all sorts of examples of that as well. So, for instance, people who have suffered from addiction often change their lives and become addiction counselors. People who have been assaulted often change their lives and become assault counselors, sort of because they resonate with the frequency of other people suffering more acutely. Psychologists don't really know that much about sort of what causes people, when they experience suffering, to go in one direction or another. But one important factor that they have identified is the support that we receive from other people. So if after a trauma, an individual is able to find a community of others who support them, well, then they're more likely to recover from their own trauma. And they might also be more likely to turn around and provide that support to others.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm thinking about research that Michael Wohl and Nailah Branscomb and others have done, looking at how when you remind people of past traumas, you remind Americans, for example, of the 911 attacks. Americans become more willing to endorse or tolerate harsh interrogation techniques in the fight against terrorism. And in some ways, at one level this seems very intuitive, that you feel like you've been through something bad and I remind you of the bad thing you've been through and there's a part of you that says, I don't want that bad thing to happen again. And that increases my willingness to permit actions or behaviors that I might otherwise say, hang on a second, this is going to cause harm to other people.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think that it cuts both ways, right? I mean, I think reminding people of collective trauma, for instance, can make them more weary of outsiders and sort of more, as you say, willing to even endorse violence or aggression towards outsiders. But thinking of a common threat is also one way to bring people within a group closer together. I remember after 911 the way that Americans really felt like we were all one because we were facing this really deep trauma together. And likewise, there's all sorts of evidence that when people feel that they have a common threat that they're facing, they band together.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So it's really interesting. What you're really pointing out is that empathy in some ways has this double edged sword quality to it, which is on the one hand it's prompting us to be outward looking, but it's also driven in some ways by factors about who's in our in group and who's not in our in group. The psychologist Paul Bloom, who wrote the book Against Empathy, the Case for Rational Compassion, he argues that empathy tends to be parochial and it tends to be biased. And that's why when we ask people to be empathic, we're really inviting them to be prejudiced. Is that true?

[Jamil Zaki]

I think that Paul is right in certain ways. Absolutely. Empathy sort of begins parochial Y Our instinctive empathy might be more driven towards people in our tribe than outside of it. I often think of oxytocin, you know, this chemical that sort of causes us to bond to other people. Right. We often think of oxytocin as the love drug or the cuddle hormone. But it turns out that if you give people oxytocin intranasally, for instance, they become more caring about people in their group, but less caring about people outside their group. In essence sort of turning up people's empathy, in that case means turning up their parochialism. I think a big place where Paul and I differ is on what we do with this information. So Paul, I think, believes that, okay, empathy tends to be parochial and biased towards insiders versus outsiders, so we should give up on it altogether. I think differently. I think that's a problem with how empathy tends to operate. But I try to focus us on the fact that we can control how we empathize and make choices about the way that we deploy our caring. And if we recognize that, hey, I'm empathizing in a parochial way, in a tribal way, we can try to make a different choice and broaden our empathy, even towards people who are different from ourselves.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You've done some very interesting work with police officers where you brought to bear this insight that you just talked about. Tell me about that work, and tell me about how sometimes the right recommendation might actually be to tell people behave a little less empathetically.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah. So for the book, I profiled Washington State's Criminal Justice Training Center. Although these officers were very empathic towards citizens, they were even more empathic towards fellow police officers. And that included fellow police officers who had engaged in potential police misconduct. Right. So while I was there, there was a case of police officers who had shot an unarmed man named Antonio Zambrano Montes. And during my visit to cjtc, the officers involved in that shooting, they're not indicted at all. So that seemed like a travesty of justice to many people in Washington State. But the people at CJTC were adamant that these were good guys who had just made a mistake. That level of empathy for people in their own group, I feel, and this is just my perspective, might have interfered with their ability to understand how the rest of the world saw what had happened. And in fact, this is consistent with research by my friend Emile Bruneau. He's studied sort of parochial empathy in a lot of different intergroup contexts. And what he finds is that sometimes, if you want to predict when someone will be willing to be aggressive towards outsiders or unwilling to compromise with someone on the other side of a conflict, it's not enough to measure whether they empathize with the people on the outside. You have to also measure how empathic they are to their own group. And it turns out that people who are extraordinarily empathic towards people in their group, even if they're also empathic towards outsiders, are unwilling to compromise, unwilling to do anything that could threaten their own tribe. So what this suggests is that Sometimes, if we want to open ourselves up to other cultures, to people on the other side of a political or racial divide, maybe what we should start out doing is not just trying to get to know them and empathize more with them, but to recognize if we're empathizing so much with our group that we'll be unable to be flexible emotionally.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I want to talk about another paradox of empathy. You say that about 50% of oncologists report feeling intense heartbreak when they communicate bad news to patients. So even as empathy is this very powerful driver of positive outcomes in medical settings, for example, it also seems to come at some personal cost.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah. In fact, even having medical students simulate delivering bad news makes them anxious, makes their palms start to sweat and their heart start to race. Empathy is hugely beneficial, including in medical contexts, for the people who receive it. But it can be an occupational hazard for the people who give it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I understand that a friend of yours is a psychotherapist, and she avoids scheduling depressed patients at the end of the day for in some ways the same reason.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, yeah, because she feels as though their negative mood will seep into her and sort of leave her unable to interact well with her family. And I think this is part of the double edged sword of empathy for people in caring professions. On the one hand, many of these people are driven to their work by a preternatural human care for others. But on the other hand, that same care can cause them to lose themselves, especially if they're in really intense medical settings where they're surrounded by sort of chronically surrounded by other people's deep suffering. And as a result, oftentimes I think people in caring professions feel like they're stuck in a double bind between caring for other people adequately but potentially grinding themselves down or turning themselves off. This is something that is called in the medical profession, defensive dehumanization. The idea that physicians and other healthcare professionals feel like they sometimes have to turn off their empathy and stop seeing their patients as people just so they can go on being people.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You cite this interesting study that Mark Pentzer conducted in the 1970s, which is another example of this kind of defensive behavior where people avoid situations where they might be called upon to demonstrate empathy. What was the study and what did he find?

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, this was a fascinating study where Pantser placed a table sort of asking for charitable donations. And the table had, you know, request for donations to charity. Sometimes the table had no one manning it, and sometimes the table had a person there who was in a wheelchair. And what he found is that when he put those empathic triggers on the table, people actually walked further away. They sort of went out of their way to avoid the table more. It was almost as though they were trying to keep physical distance between them and something that would make them feel empathy, either because it would feel bad or because it would force them to do something like donate that maybe they didn't really want to do. I think a lot of us have this experience when we see, for instance, a homeless individual on the sidewalk ahead of us. I've heard of people who cross the street to avoid that encounter, maybe because they don't want to sort of see that person suffering close up because it will make them feel sad or guilty or both.

[Shankar Vedantam]

There's some irony there, isn't there, which is that the person who is likely to actually be more empathic is also the person who's likely to cross the street because they recognize that the empathy that they have inside them is going to make them feel bad.

[Jamil Zaki]

Absolutely, yeah. I've talked with lots of people who identify as empaths and basically say that they're crippled by their overabundance of care for other people and that sometimes they avoid sort of busy cities overall just because they don't want to be inundated with other people's pain.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So in other words, empathy not only can produce pain, pain can not only produce disengagement, but we can actually almost dehumanize other people because we're so in some ways reluctant to accept the pain that comes with actually empathizing with them.

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, absolutely. Especially if you or a group that you belong to is responsible for that pain. Because then empathy can twist into a sense of guilt or even self loathing. And there's a dramatic example of this that was studied about 10 years ago with death workers in the American South. These are executioners. And what they found is that people who worked on death rows were likely to dehumanize inmates and say that they had given up the right to be treated like people. And this was especially true if they were the ones physically involved in delivering lethal injections and the like. So, again, in lots of ways, empathy can hurt us, right? It can be unpleasant or cause us to view ourselves in ways that we don't like, and that in turn can cause us to avoid it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

When we come back, how to manage this tricky balance and how we can train ourselves with deliberate practice to be more empathetic. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from sleep. Number life changes. Your mattress should too. Sleep Number's new collections are designed for personalized comfort that evolves with you as your body, health and lifestyle change. You can adjust firmness anytime for lasting support. It's the Everything On Sale Memorial Day event from Sleep Number. Every bed and base is on sale now. Visit a Sleep Number store near you or learn [e-mail] support for Hidden Brain comes from Principal. The perpetual pen tapper, the arbitrary fridge reorganizer, the holiday party planner that starts in May. Principal knows your star employees have their work quirks. Principal also knows how much those employees mean to your business. You need them. They need benefits. Work with Principal so they can help you help your team with a retirement and benefits plan that's right for them. Principal Life Insurance Co. Des Moines, Iowa. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. During his month long performance art piece, tens of thousands of paintballs were fired at Wafa Bilal in his studio. The white walls of his gallery turned fluorescent yellow.

[Leslie John]

You could just keep repeating getting hit.

[Shankar Vedantam]

On day 11, a shooter from Estonia began bombarding his lab until it fell apart.

[Leslie John]

It was sad for me because the lamp represented just the only thing that

[Jamil Zaki]

stayed alive beside me in the space, especially at night.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Viewers online could see Wafa's sadness. Later that day, one of those viewers came to visit him in person.

[Leslie John]

The lamp was totally broken and I have a person here walked in with

[Jamil Zaki]

a brand new lamp.

[Leslie John]

Hi, my name is Matt. I was watching the camera this morning.

[Jamil Zaki]

I saw the lamp went out so

[Leslie John]

I had some time. I thought I'd run to Target, got

[Jamil Zaki]

a new lamp and some light bulbs.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So I know sometimes you need all

[Leslie John]

the help you can get even in a situation like this. So thought I'd bring that by and

[Shankar Vedantam]

just help you out a little bit. Jamil Talk about this moment. Perfect strangers are attacking Wafa and then a perfect stranger shows up to help him. What do you think causes someone to take the step of saying this problem is my problem, this suffering is my suffering?

[Jamil Zaki]

Well, it's a beautiful story and there's so many like it. And I think it really Wafa's story shows you the two sides of how empathy can work in our modern context. Right. On the one hand, you've got people who are anonymous sort of feeling as though they've had the break lines cut from their social lives and they can do whatever they want without having to worry about the consequences. So they're acting aggressively towards a total stranger. On the other hand, you have someone who taps into that stranger's story, who's paying attention to wo fa? He's watching the video of him and realizing what he's going through, Sort of able to tap into the story of this stranger. And that instead of destroying his empathy, builds it, stretches it towards this person and drives him, inspires him to help him.

[Leslie John]

I forgot to mention, something is really important. Matt is a Marine.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Matt wasn't the only visitor.

[Leslie John]

Hi, I'm Lara. I live here in Chicago. So I came down to the gallery and I made some of my famous muffins. That's actually my sister's recipe.

[Jamil Zaki]

I noticed the other night we went to.

[Leslie John]

They had one black sock on and

[Shankar Vedantam]

one white sock, so I brought you some socks. There were lots of people online who helped wafa, too. Sometimes they took control of the paintball gun by repeatedly pressing down a key and pointing the gun away from Wafa. He called them his virtual human shields.

[Leslie John]

Something is really amazing happening right now. I have about 36 or so people pressing the button down on the left

[Shankar Vedantam]

preventing people from panning into my direction. Here is wafa on day 31 after stepping outside the gallery building for the first time in a month.

[Leslie John]

The whole idea is reinforce my belief in humanity and humankind. So thank you very much for keeping the hope alive, and please keep the conversation going.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It may seem surprising that Wafa's month in the paintball gallery left him feeling optimistic about humanity. But he's not alone in that optimism. Jamil Zaki also thinks there are ways we might use technology to form connections with people whom we previously did not see as being like ourselves. He's done work looking at how virtual reality might help people identify with others whose lives are very different from their own.

[Jamil Zaki]

What we wanted to do is use technology to bring people not just to sort of observe the experiences of a homeless individual, but observe them from the inside. So we had a simulation where people went through a series of scenes. These are sort of virtual reality scenes of what it might be like to become homeless. So in one scene, they've been evicted from their apartment, and they're trying to figure out what they can sell to make ends meet and stay in their apartment just one more month. In the second scene, they've failed to stay in their apartment and are now sort of sleeping in their car, which is then impounded. And then in a third scene, they're on a local bus line, which, in fact, in the Bay Area, there is a bus line that homeless individuals often take to for shelter during the night. So again, this showed people in an Interactive, immersive way, the process that an individual might go through when they become homeless. What we found was that this short simulation powerfully affected people's empathy for the homeless. Even a month later. People who had gone through that simulation, as opposed to a control condition, were less likely to dehumanize homeless individuals. And they were more supportive of policies that would produce affordable housing for people in the Bay Area, which is a very sort of hot button issue around here. So again, this suggests that by putting ourselves into the story of people who on the surface appear different from us, we can recognize, as you put it nicely, our common humanity with them. And that can trigger empathy in a really natural way.

[Shankar Vedantam]

There are also some less high tech ways to get people to walk in the shoes of other people. And one of the things you mention in the book is the idea of the theater. How does being an actor in some ways prompt you to develop the muscle of empathy?

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, I mean, if you think about what acting is, that you really immerse yourself so deeply in the character that you stop being yourself and start being them for a little while. I mean, I'd say it's more than walking a mile in their shoes. You're almost walking a mile in their skin. And as a result, there's some evidence at least, that acting in fact bolsters people's empathy. So in a great set of studies, Talia Goldstein looked at adolescents who were in performing arts high schools and compared them, you know, at the beginning and end of the year to students who are being trained in visual arts. And what she found is that sort of acting, training in acting improved kids empathy more than training in a different type of art. Which is not to say that training in the visual arts doesn't have advantages. I'm sure it does. But sort of embodying another person in the way that actors do almost is like, I would say, a performance enhancing drug for empathy, if you will.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And in some ways, does the same go for narrative fiction? I mean, I feel like when I'm reading a great novel, you know, I, as you said a second ago, become transported. I become, you know, a woman who's living in the 19th century. And in some ways, deep, deeply written, beautifully written narrative fiction has this ability to pull us deep into the lives of other people.

[Jamil Zaki]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, this is why I love fiction as well, because it really allows us to effortlessly voyage into the lives of other people and not just see them again from the outside, but see them from the inside. There's a fair amount of evidence now that sort of the more fiction that people read, the more empathic that they become. So there's a number of correlational studies that show, for instance, that children who read lots of storybooks versus those who read less fiction become more empathic. And that holds for adults also, unfortunately for me, reading nonfiction, like scientific articles, not that helpful.

[Shankar Vedantam]

The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology doesn't do it.

[Jamil Zaki]

It's not really the empathy gym that some of us are looking for. But there's also some experimental evidence now coming out that even small doses of fiction produce small but reliable improvements in people's empathy. And I think this is especially important because fiction is one of the most powerful ways to connect with people who are different from us, who maybe we might not have a chance to meet otherwise. Right. So, for instance, you can maybe it would be hard to meet someone who is, I don't know, a Bolivian miner, but you could probably go to a bookstore and find a novel about their experiences. And likewise, there's some evidence, for instance, that when people read novelistic, vivid accounts of the experiences of Arab Americans or people of different gender identities than themselves, they form greater empathy for those other groups.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We've talked in different ways about how redefining who's in the in group can reshape our capacity for empathy. You mention a very interesting research study in the book involving fans of the Manchester United soccer team. Do you remember that study? And if you do, can you tell me about it?

[Jamil Zaki]

Yeah, I love this study from Mark Levine and his colleagues. So they recruited rabid Manchester United fans, and, you know, fandom in UK soccer is very important. And they asked them to write about why they loved Manchester United so much and then told them that they would go to a different building on campus to watch film of Man Yu playing. While they were on their way across campus, they came across a jogger who appeared to twist his ankle and fall to the ground, writhing in pain. This person was, in fact, an actor. And the trick here was that the psychologists made it such that sometimes that actor was wearing a Manchester United jersey. Sometimes they were wearing a jersey of Liverpool, which at the time was Manchester United's most hated rival. And other times they were wearing a blank jersey. And what they found was that Man U fans were more than willing to help fellow Man U fans, but also more than willing to basically step over a Liverpool fan as they sort of writhed on the ground in pain. This is sort of classic tribalism in terms of our empathy and generosity. But what I love about this study is that the psychologists ran a second version of it. And here, instead of asking Man U fans to write about why they loved the team, they asked them to write about why they loved soccer, why it is such a beautiful game, and then they put them in the same scenario. And what they found was that after writing about how much they loved soccer, individuals were not just willing to help fellow Man U fans, but also willing to help Liverpool fans. They still didn't help the person in the blank jersey, which I guess suggests that it's. Which I suppose suggests that it's better to be part of any tribe than part of none. But I think there's a deeper takeaway from this study, which is that, yes, it's easier to empathize with people who are like us than unlike us. But all of us have many different selves inside us at any given moment, and each self carries with it a different group, maybe of a different size. So if I think of myself, for instance, as a Stanford person, well, then people at UC Berkeley are my mortal enemies, especially during the big game. But if I think of myself as a Californian, then my in group, the people who deserve my empathy and who it's easy to empathize with, that group grows. And if I can think of myself as, I don't know, an American or a human being, then that group will grow even further.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know, I'm thinking about the story you told me about your parents divorce when you were a small child. You write in the book about your parents. That two people's experiences could differ so drastically, yet both be true and deep, is maybe the most important lesson I've ever learned,

[Jamil Zaki]

I think. You know, I often attribute that period of my life to. To really making me who I am at the deepest level. I mean, I think not for nothing they say that research is me. Search. Right. At least in psychology, people tend to gravitate towards ideas that have made an impact on their life. And I think for me, empathizing with my parents was a survival skill that I needed just to sort of keep my family together at some level, but it also taught me at a much broader level that people can be fundamentally different from each other for fundamentally similar reasons. Right. My parents had totally different values. Not because one of them was wrong or because one of them was a bad person, but because of the lives that they had lived and the experiences that they had had and the things that had hurt them and helped them along the way. I think that this is a lesson that I try to impart to all of my students as well, is that oftentimes, when we encounter someone who's different from ourselves and has an opinion or a viewpoint, maybe that we even abhor, it's easy to just view them as being either obtuse or dishonest or both. But that's a mistake. It's something that psychologists call naive realism, the idea that your version of the world is the world. And I think that empathy at a deep level is the understanding that someone else's world is just as real as yours.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Developing that understanding of another person's world requires real vulnerability. We can only begin to see things through another person's eyes if they are willing to tell us who they really are. Being that open with another person can be daunting and terrifying. Recently, we talked with psychologist Leslie John about the secrets we keep and when, how and why we choose to reveal them to others. Those episodes were titled Keeping Secrets and Coming Clean. Shortly after those episodes came out, we received a voice memo from a listener named Mung.

[Leslie John]

Right around the time I listened to the episode Keeping Secrets, I suffered a sudden hearing loss where I woke up one day and one of my ears, I just couldn't hear much and just didn't know what happened.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mung freaked out. She didn't know what to do. One day, her child had a playdate with another child. The mother of the other child and Meng spent some time together.

[Leslie John]

So when we were hanging out, she asked me, how are you doing? You know, normally you just say, I'm doing well and keep carrying the conversation. But instead I just listened to your episode. So I told her I actually, I just lost my hearing on one side of my ear. I don't know what's causing it. I saw my primary care physician. She couldn't see anything wrong. She sent a referral, referral to a specialist, but I need to wait for insurance clearing. But it has been going on for over almost two weeks now and my friend got really concerned. She said her partner had the same issue and he didn't go see a doctor until a month and a half later after he lost his hearing. And he never was able to got his hearing back because he lost a crucial window to see the doctor. So my friend urged me to go see a doctor right away.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Meng listened to the advice. She drove to the emergency room where she quickly got a referral to a specialist who figured out what was wrong and what to do. Moving quickly, Meng says, is the reason she got her hearing back.

[Leslie John]

So I really appreciate all my friends who are there to support me to get the treatment right away. If I didn't share my secret, like I would probably not be able to hear on my left ear anymore. So that was a really great experience. And I learned when you have people you trust, you can feel you are able to be vulnerable. You actually can have shared life experiences and benefit everyone. So that's just something I want to share with you.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We all wonder how much of ourselves to share with others. Often in social situations like the one Meng was in, we make small talk. Oh, the weather is awful right now. Did you see the game last night? But Meng discovered that sharing her worry helped get her the help she needed. She also made a deep connection with a friend. When we come back, Hidden Brain listeners share their stories and questions about revealing their inner selves. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Support for Hidden brain comes from BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month, a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to do it alone. From loneliness epidemics to anxiety and Sunday scaries to financial stress, right now Americans are struggling. And while most people believe that seeking out support is important, many still don't take that step. That's where BetterHelp comes in. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist who's there with you to listen, understand and support you on your terms. Schedule sessions conveniently via the app, and talk to your therapist by video phone or live chat. BetterHelp matches you with a therapist who's with you through life's ups and downs because no journey should be alone. Sign up now and get 10% [e-mail] hidden that's betterhelp.com hidden. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In last week's segment of youf Questions Answered, we talked with psychologist Leslie John about the costs of keeping secrets and the pain we feel when others keep secrets from us. Leslie is the author of the Underrated Power of Oversharing. Today she joins us for listeners questions and stories about what happens when we let another person in and unburden ourselves of Our secrets. Leslie Johnson, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

[Leslie John]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Leslie. We talked before about how our impulse in many interactions is to stay at a surface level, even when we want to go deeper. What does the research say are the benefits of opening ourselves to others?

[Leslie John]

Oh, there's so many benefits. The core benefit is trust. When we open up to others, when we share something a bit sensitive and personal, we are actually modeling that we trust the person. We're implicitly saying, I'm telling you this because I trust you to not make a fool out of me. And so that in turn is so powerful it makes them trust us. And trust is really the kernel of all social relationships. Right, which are so important for human flourishing. There are mental and physical well being benefits to revealing. Revealing wisely and opening up a little bit more makes us feel closer to our spouses, to our friends. It makes us feel known for who we really are. The research I've done in the workplace has really surprised me because we've also found that leaders, when they're a little vulnerable, when they share some of their weaknesses, for example, that makes their teammates and their employees trust them more and be more motivated to work for them.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We often hear the term too much information, or TMI when we overshare. You have a term called tli. What is tli?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, it's too little information. I mean, we're culturally obsessed with tmi, with oversharing. And yes, TMI is a thing, but, oh, we've paid so little attention to tli, too little information. And the more I study and experience it, the more I think TLI is probably a bigger problem than tmi.

[Shankar Vedantam]

One of the benefits of sharing a secret is what you call reciprocity. We received a note about that from a listener named Win. I discovered after my mother died that I have a half brother that she never told anybody about. And when I tell people that, I usually get a disclosure of a similarly significant family secret from the person I'm talking to. And in fact, I was at a dinner party once when I made the disclosure and everyone else at the party, at the table had some similar family secret like that. So there is a lot of reciprocity associated with the disclosure of secrets. Talk about this idea, Leslie. Why is it that when we reveal our secrets to others, it becomes easier for them to reveal their secrets to us?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, reciprocity comes so naturally to us. I mean, I might even say it's an instinct. So when we make ourselves vulnerable by sharing something sensitive, we're showing that we Trust the person we're communicating, that we're safe because we've just put ourselves out on the line. And that prompts people to reciprocate that. It's also a gesture, a gesture of. It's a kind gesture, right, to say you trust someone in that way. And it prompts them to engage back. Because also fundamentally, opening up is something that does feel good to the right people in the right place.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Hmm. In one study, Leslie, you found a herding effect in revealing secrets. Describe the study and what you found.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, so what we did in this study was we asked people a bunch of questions that varied in how sensitive they were. Like, have you ever eaten meat, poultry or fish? That's like a softball question that went all the way up to like, have you ever had sex with a friend's spouse? So, like, way the whole range. And what we found was that this hurting effect, whereby if you know that other people have admitted to something or revealed something, it makes you more comfortable revealing back. And the interesting thing about this study is that it wasn't a face to face conversation where you may feel kind of socially compelled. Rather, it was this bare bones online survey where we just asked people questions and we told them how other people had ostensibly answered the questions. And basically when we told them that many people had admitted to calling in sick when they weren't sick, for example, people were more likely themselves to admit that relative to another version where we, you know, we said almost nobody is ever calling in sick when not sick, so. So it's easier to reveal when you know that you're not alone.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Hmm. The need for reciprocity in sharing with others can sometimes backfire on us. We've all been in situations where we reveal something vulnerable about ourselves and expect the other person to reciprocate, but for whatever reason, they don't. Here's a story along those lines from listener Abigail.

[Leslie John]

I was thinking while I listened to the episode about the cost of not reciprocating when someone is open with you, what that can do to a relationship. My son recently upset another mom's son at school by accident, and they were planning to talk about it the next day with the teacher. But he was really upset about the idea that his friend was mad at him. And I said, why don't we send him a message? So I gave my son my phone and he sent a message to his friend, to the mom's phone number saying, I'm sorry and it was an accident, and just expressing a bit of vulnerability, which was a big deal for My son. And then the mom responded later saying, oh, no worries, no big deal. And I know they're going to talk about it in school tomorrow anyway. And I felt really bad from that response and I didn't really understand why until I was listening to the podcast and I realized that both my son and I, I think by participating and sending this message, were trying to reveal something vulnerable and reach out and say, I'm sorry I hurt you, and looking for something reassuring in return, like I'm not angry with you, or I am angry with you, and here's how to make it better. And with the mom giving this really non committal response that didn't really say whether she or her son were upset, it kind of denied us the opportunity to have the conversation. And it made me feel really distant from her.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, Leslie, you call the type of situation that Abigail experienced a reciprocity fail. What is that? And how can we get better at avoiding a reciprocity fail?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, so exactly. A reciprocity fail is when you feel you've put yourself out there and be vulnerable and you kind of get shot down or you don't get a welcoming response or a reveal back. And that's what Abigail is describing here. So a few things strike me about this example. One is vulnerability over text messaging and email, non face to face or non phone. I think that's really tough. That's a tough setup because it's so hard to interpret emotions when you're in a. It's communicating virtually like that. So the number one thing is first to set yourself up for success is to talk on the phone or in person, because then your emotion translates. The second is, I think that this is a perfect example of how we often expect someone to react in a certain way or want them to react in a certain way. And then when they don't, we get really disappointed. Well, what might we be able to do to change that? We can actually say what we need. We can actually be proactive and say, I feel terrible about this. This is a hard, hard thing for me to say. And I'm hoping that you can tell me how you feel after hearing this. Right.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know, it also struck me, Leslie, that we are aware of our own motivations when we say something. But of course, all that someone else can hear are the words coming out of our mouths. They don't have access to all of our internal feelings. And I guess it underlines the importance of really making sure that what you say reveals and reflects your inner concerns, that you're not giving short shrift to them.

[Leslie John]

Yes, completely. And a key part of that is sharing your feelings. I think we too often we think that feelings are these la la la fu fufu things. But feelings are data, feelings are informative, and feelings, when you share them, they're actually very persuasive. Why? Because it's hard to fake feelings. And you also can't really argue with feelings in the way you can with facts. Right. Feelings aren't really subject to logic and debate the way a fact is. So. And it's also disarming a little bit because if you they're non accusational if you share how you feel as opposed to comment on someone's behavior. Right. So sharing our feelings is something that I really think in most areas we would benefit by doing more of.

[Shankar Vedantam]

When we come back, how our propensity to share with others depends on who we're sharing with. You're listening to Hidden Brain Hello, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Defender Even the boldest journey starts small with a single decision to go somewhere new. The Defender 110 is a vehicle built for those moments for drivers capable of great things whether they're headed toward uncharted territory or just a weekend away. The Defender 110 combines on road presence with off road capability. It looks tough because it is with an exterior engineered for durability. Inside capability meets comfort with seating for five and the option for seven plus refined finishes and thoughtful design. It's also packed with intuitive tech like 3D surroundings, cameras with clearside ground view to help you navigate rough terrain, and the next generation PIVI Pro infotainment system designed to keep you informed, connected and in control no matter the path. The Defender 110 is naturally capable, expedition ready and built. For those ready to move Forward, explore the [e-mail] Support for hidden Brain comes from Quince. If you're trying to be more intentional about what you wear day to day, Quinn's can help with that. They've got pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still put together. The fabrics feel elevated and the fits are clean. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34, lightweight, breathable and comfortable. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you're getting premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com brain for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-N-C-E.com brain for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com brain. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. When we overshare with the wrong person, it can be embarrassing. But at Harvard University, Leslie Johns says not sharing anything at all could be worse. Leslie I often find that when I'm deciding what or how much to share of myself, it can really depend on who I'm talking to. We received a voicemail along these lines from a listener named Jeremy. He shared that he's recovering from an addiction to pornography. As a teenager, he grew up religious. So Jeremy decided to confess his sins to his church leader.

[Jamil Zaki]

I went in there and I was so terrified. My hands were sweaty. I remember just sitting in that room and just not wanting to say the thing. And he could tell that there was something I wanted to say. And he kept just gently asking. And finally I just, I said the thing. I said, you know, I've been looking

[Shankar Vedantam]

at a lot of pornography.

[Jamil Zaki]

And I cried. And he said, well, you should just stop. And I'm telling you, I was so devastated at that response. It felt like I had taken so much courage and so much energy and strength to go in and say this thing. And his response was just stop. And I had tried everything in my power to possibly stop, and I just couldn't. Between hormones and just, you know, being a teenage boy, of course, well, all that did was drive me more underground, and I became better at hiding it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, Leslie, talk a moment about the importance of recognizing someone's courage when they tell us a secret, not just responding to the content of the secret.

[Leslie John]

Yes, yes. We think way too much about the content and not enough about the gesture of disclosure. And when we're on the receiving end, it's hard for us to empathize with just how hard it is, especially when there's power imbalances, as there was in Jeremy's example. And so I think when someone says that, think of it as a gift and say thank you for sharing that, like, truly, even if it's something that you're dissatisfied with, you can recognize that this took courage. And there's actually been some really interesting studies on what can. When you're on the receiving end of someone's sensitive disclosure, what is the best way to help them? And again and again, the best thing to do is validation. So we often think that we should problem solve, right? Like in this example, like what are you going to do about it? But actually less is more just like recognizing their disclosure and saying, I hear you. That must be so hard. I would feel the same way too. These are forms of validation and that is so comforting to people. It really reduces their momentary stress levels and helps them see things more clearly and be more clear headed.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I want to bring you to the next part of Jeremy's story, Leslie. As he grew into adulthood, he continued to struggle with his addiction until a partner learned about it.

[Jamil Zaki]

And finally there came a point at which I was discovered, which is often the case for people like me. And I had no choice but to come clean. And she didn't want to hear my coming clean. But I did find a program where I had some support and people who

[Shankar Vedantam]

really understood what I had gone through

[Jamil Zaki]

and how this thing works. And when I did that to a

[Shankar Vedantam]

person who really, really understood, what I

[Jamil Zaki]

felt was freedom, understanding, comfort, love to a level that I'd never felt before. I think it gave me a real good step into not having the problem.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, Leslie, I'm struck by the contrast between Jeremy's different experiences of sharing his secret. And I'm also struck by the fact that he received the most support from other people who had been through what he went through. Have you studied the power that support groups have in helping people unburden themselves of their secrets?

[Leslie John]

It's so powerful knowing that you have a shared reality with someone that they have been going through the same things. Because when you think about it again, this idea of like feeling known for who you really are is so soothing. And so if you've had unique experiences with addiction, talking. It's one thing to talk to an understanding spouse, but it's also incredibly curative to talk to other people who have been through similar things. After the first Hidden Brain we did together, a bunch of my old friends from ballet reached out to me. I trained professionally, classical ballet when I was a lot younger. And they reached out to me. And this was the last time I saw them was 30 years ago. And we met last month. The four of us met together. We hadn't seen each other in 30 years. And it was unbelievably bonding and wonderful and beautiful. And we talked about some of these things that at the time, you know, we lived together in grade six and seven. We were like sisters. And we went through like it was a privilege, a total privilege to get to do this, to train at this level. But it was also really hard. And you know, these things, it made me realize that things that we, that I hadn't really processed that were kind of lurking that, you know, I have dreams, nightmares every month or two now I don't have them anymore so far because we were able to talk about these things that were really messed up and make sense of them. Like one of these things is when you do point work, you're standing on your toes, your feet bleed, especially at the beginning. And we never told our teachers that our feet were bleeding. So we just, did we just dance with these raw feet and, and the thought of telling them did not even occur to us because the, this, the, the norm, this authoritarian competitive norm was so entrenched in us that if we revealed we would be weak. And I just made that realization with them a couple months ago. And so it just feels so good to like process these things that you've uniquely been through. It's, it's very, very healing.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm also wondering if it's possible that when we share things with people who've essentially been through the same experience like you had with your friends, one of the advantages is that there is so much that can be left unsaid and unspoken because in fact you share all of this implicit understanding and knowledge.

[Leslie John]

Oh yeah, it's so efficient. Now I'm type A business school Prof. It's efficient, but it is. I mean you don't need to set the stage. You already know the cast of characters, you know the personalities and you just go right back. It was, it was beautiful.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We received this message from a listener named Meryl that also has to do with the audience for our self disclosures.

[Leslie John]

Two years ago, I was the victim

[Shankar Vedantam]

of a bank fraud.

[Leslie John]

Three well trained imposters from abroad contacted me by phone over a six week period. They hooked me in with kindness and had me believing that it was in my best interest to follow their instructions. As an elderly person, I was easy prey for them. When my checking account was depleted, I didn't know who to turn to for support. Not wanting my intelligence to be judged, I kept the secret intact. Imagining words like how could you? Didn't you see where this was going? Why did you listen to people you didn't know? And why didn't you call me? Kept the secret even tighter. The deputy Attorney General in the state I reside in contacted me by phone to speak at a symposium about fraud. Speaking with him for one hour gave release. The conversation was safe and non judgmental because I knew this higher up legislator was talking to other people in my state who were in similar circumstances.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So that's a powerful story. Leslie And I think many people can relate to Meryl's experience. You know, you sit next to somebody on a bus or a train or a park bench and you tell them things that you haven't told your closest friends. Why do you think that is?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, it's freeing because you know you're not gonna see them again. It's freeing because you don't need to worry about them judging you. And in fact, sometimes, especially when we know the person, it feels very like it's very hard to reveal things. And I really feel for Meryl because that's a really hard thing. You know, it can really happen to anyone, but you'd feel so stupid and it would be very hard to talk to. And I'm really glad that she there was a professional who was really well trained and received those disclosures in a great way.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm wondering how much it matters whether the people we unburden ourselves to share the same values or worldview as us. We received an email from listener Allison. She writes, before the 2016 election, when Donald Trump's comments about women and sexual assault were coming to the surface, I spoke up about how my own experience with sexual abuse had destroyed me. In an attempt to show friends how serious I felt the statements were. I did so selectively. But I live in a very conservative community and I had a handful of friends tell me that I needed to get over my feelings about sexual assault. And in order to vote for the greater good, I fell into a deep depression that I haven't really pulled out of. I used to be friendly and outgoing, heavily engaged in my neighborhood, church and pta. But even after years of therapy, I still isolate myself. I don't know my neighbors anymore. I rarely see friends investing in relationships, especially new ones, just feels too risky. So, Leslie, how do we still share of ourselves, our experiences, our stories, when we feel that the people we're sharing with are not on the same page as us?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, that's a really important question. And I think this speaks to the importance of curating your audience. Now, you can't predict people's reactions 100%, so it's not like the revealer's problem all the time. But one thing that we can try to do in with these really sensitive things is instead of just kind of feeling like it's a one shot thing, we're going to just say the thing to a bunch of people. We could try, for example, we could try first saying the words out loud privately. How does that feel? Right. And then try saying them to someone that is really close with you. Yeah.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I mean, I'm also reflecting that one of the things that Alison was doing was she was trying to frame her disclosures in the context of, you know, a very tense political situation. And I'm wondering whether Alison might have had more success if she was in a situation where even if she was with people who disagreed with her politically, she's finding some kind of a common activity or an event that people are interested in and then sharing her self disclosure in that context where it's not going to be interpreted through a political lens.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, totally. I mean, the context massively shapes the interpretation of the self disclosure for sure. Another thing that comes to mind is if she was here, what I would love to ask her more about is her why. Like what's her purpose? What's her motive for revealing? Because I'm a story of mine. It's not a terrible event like what Alison experienced. But you know, when I was first pregnant with our first little guy, I was overjoyed and in a spirit of warmth and transparency, I kind of blurted it out to our landlord. Well, that's sent a series of chain reactions that basically ended with us having to move out. It was definitely a disclosure that came back to bite me. Everything worked out in the end. But you know, and in hindsight I'm like, why did I do that? Well, I wanted to get coups and love and was my landlord really the right person to do that? Absolutely not. So kind of thinking those things through your goal and whether this audience is the right, the right person or context.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We've all heard the phrase humble bragging. We reveal something that looks like a flaw, but it's really designed to draw positive attention to ourselves. When we come back, how to reveal things that show us in a good light. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Liquid iv. When you're on the go, staying hydrated is key to enjoying all that extra sunshine. And right now you can get 20% off your first order with Code Brain at checkout. It's powered by LIV hydroscience, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Liquid IV is always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. Explore the delicious sugar free options like white peach, strawberry, watermelon and more. Stay hydrated while you're on the go this summer with Liquid IV tear pour live. More go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first purchase with code brain at checkout. That's 20% off your first purchase with Code [e-mail].

[Jamil Zaki]

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[Leslie John]

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[Jamil Zaki]

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[Leslie John]

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[Leslie John]

like taxes and fees apply.

[Jamil Zaki]

See t mobile.com for details.

[Shankar Vedantam]

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Leslie John is a psychologist at Harvard University. She's the author of Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. Leslie we've been talking today about self disclosure of secrets that are often painful or embarrassing. But you also studied how it can be difficult to share something that we are proud of. How so?

[Leslie John]

Yeah, it can be hard because you don't want to make your loved ones and friend ones feel badly. You don't want to spark envy, right? You don't want them to feel jealous. And so oftentimes then what we end up doing is we end up just like not sharing the thing. And that's also problematic. This reminds me of my colleague Oval Sasser's work where on Humble Bragging, where what we try to do is we try to then often couch the take the edge off the brag by couching it with a display of humility. Like oh my gosh, I can't believe my boss asked me to lead this meeting. Right? Or it's so hard when I get so many text messages from all my friends. It's really hard to respond to all that. And it's just like mega eye roll, right? And so, so don't humble brag. It's better to outright brag. And by that I mean say the positive thing. But there's, there's ways of being like really thoughtful about it. Like you got to consider the timing. You don't want to tell your bestie that you got a promotion when your bestie had a really bad day and is feeling down. Another thing you can do is reveal like the story of how you got there. Like that you worked really hard and you've been thinking about this a long time. So it's not like oh hey, I got promoted, like I'm the best. It's so easy. So you can reveal kind of the struggle I think we need to be very careful about the timing, the recipient and the context. And you can see that context vary dramatically in how much self praise or self promotion or saying positive things about myself is acceptable. Like if you're on LinkedIn, it's weird not to self promote. It's weird not to sit right. So you really have to read the room.

[Shankar Vedantam]

A listener named Patricia called in with a story. She's from Australia and had a new boss at one point and she shared a story with him about how she had challenged authority and gone outside the rules in a previous job. And in many ways it turned out really well. Patricia was working in child protective services and she really did right by the children she was working with. And she hoped that this story would show her new boss what an exceptional employee she was going to be. Unfortunately, her boss did not see the story in the same way she did.

[Leslie John]

He no longer talked to me after I told him this story. No longer looked at me. I was like someone that he wanted to get rid of and I couldn't understand why. And it's because he realized that I wasn't someone that would just easily follow anything that he told me. And he wouldn't be able to control me and he wouldn't be able to make me easily conform. So after I told him that story and realized the consequences of it, I felt nothing but dread and regret. And I thought, oh God, this is one situation where I probably shouldn't have disclosed because this guy was all about having power and control over his employees.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So Leslie, talk about the role that power plays in these self disclosure dilemmas because it seems to me that perhaps this is especially tricky terrain where we have to be careful about when and with whom we disclose completely.

[Leslie John]

Yeah, and the workplace is a very tricky situation because you know, in any given day most of us, a lot of us move up and down the status hierarchy, right? Like when I'm talking to the Dean, I'm low status. When I'm talking to my, my MBA students, I'm higher status. And so that really shapes disclosure too. Like your status has a big impact on what's safe. And generally as you move higher up the status pole, it's more safe to reveal sensitive things. Patricia's example is a great example of how a well intended disclosure can come back to bite us, at least in the short run, since we have the benefit of perspective and not being in this situation ourselves. A couple things struck me. One is, I know this is hard, but I wondered how much she had talked to her boss about, you know, why he reacted the way he did. Because sometimes if you can, if you can have a meeting and ask the person about more about their reactions, you will learn things that of their perspective that completely maybe explain their reaction and is not what you were thinking. So I think we kind of under ask. But I don't say that lightly because when there's big things, status differences, it's hard to ask someone higher status a question like that. The other thing, again with the benefit of being way zoomed out here is so this person didn't appreciate the efforts that she had gone to. And I think that should prompt a question. Is this the person I want to work for? Is this the organization where my values fit? And if you do have the luxury of maybe looking elsewhere like that, that's an interesting data point to consider. So I think like a big part of thing that I've learned is like when your self disclosures don't go the way you want them to sometimes if you think of them as failures, then that's really demotivating. But try to think of them as what you learned. A lot of times you learn even more from the times when you get surprising reactions in the negative way. Right.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'd like to switch gears for a moment and talk about disclosure. In romantic relationships. Many people have found that there's a topic that can be particularly difficult to discuss with their partners and that's the topic of past relationships. Listener Janet had been seeing a boyfriend for six years when she decided it was time to have the talk.

[Leslie John]

I had not shared with him that I was in a very seriously damaging relationship about 20 years ago. Police were involved. It was pretty bad and I just felt like I wanted to share it with him. It was something that he should know about me. So we were having a conversation about vulnerability and I said, there's something I'd like to share with you and it's not going to be easy for me to tell you and you may judge me, but I feel like I need to tell you. So I told him the story and he sat and listened. And when it was all done, there was just silence. I didn't know what to do, so I just sat there and ultimately we ended the conversation and he decided to get up and leave and go home. And from that point forward, our relationship changed pretty profoundly. We still see each other as friends occasionally, but that's it. So that's the story.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So Leslie, it looks like Janet was punished for being vulnerable in disclosing something that happened to her in the past. How should we think of these moments when we put ourselves out there and the other person has a negative or awkward reaction to our disclosure?

[Leslie John]

I think it's information, right. As hard as it is. And I feel so badly for Janet. I admire her courage. And it just sucks so bad when someone doesn't even know what to do with it and leaves. That said, it is a very clear signal, right? Like this person can't handle it. I mean, especially if, unless there's like a day or few later that he comes back, he's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like, this was overwhelming, right? Like, but if it's not paired with some kind of hugely rectifying behavior like that. I know this is going to sound crazy, but it's a bit of a gift because this person revealed himself to her. Now, it happened after six years, I think she said, which is. That's incredibly hard to take. It's one of those things that's just self disclosure. It's often very hard in the short run, but so good for us in the long run.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Listener Rachel had a psychologically complex question. Can we ever use disclosure and vulnerability weapons?

[Leslie John]

One thing I was just curious to hear her talk about was whether something like being vulnerable could be used sort

[Shankar Vedantam]

of as a form of manipulation.

[Leslie John]

It's a behavior I think I've witnessed

[Shankar Vedantam]

sometimes where people sort of use their

[Leslie John]

vulnerability to sort of get close enough

[Shankar Vedantam]

to people to kind of manage the situation.

[Leslie John]

But I just wonder if that. If that is a possibility, you know,

[Shankar Vedantam]

both in the public space and in personal or work relationships where the idea of, like, putting yourself in a vulnerable

[Leslie John]

position to sort of gain a little

[Shankar Vedantam]

more power within, like a relationship dynamic. Now, Rachel didn't actually give us a specific context or an example, Leslie, but what do you think? Can vulnerability and disclosure ever be used as weapons of manipulation?

[Leslie John]

Absolutely. I mean, this is a kind of Interrogation 101, right? Is saying something about yourself that's sensitive and that builds rapport with the person you're trying to get to confess or whatever. So that's like definitely in that trick book. Scammers, they, they say they're vulnerable. They say, oh no, my, my, my father's dying, right? So we feel very. We trust them because they're like, revealing to us, even though, you know, objectively we know we should not. There's something about that gesture. So absolutely, vulnerability can be used against us. And it is. And we need to be very careful. And when we are in a vulnerable or weakened state, we are more susceptible. Like, even I remember when I was lonely and in my mid-30s and I found myself single and I was dating again. Like, I caught them before I got looped in. But there was a couple of people that were definitely scammers. In hindsight. They were, and they was. It was this situation of, like, too close too quickly. And I did see through it. But it's just when you want something to be so true with connection, if you're looking for love, like, that's one of these moments when we're very susceptible to a vulnerability, being manipulated by that way.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We got an interesting question from listener Nora about using self disclosure as a way to reduce tension and conflict.

[Leslie John]

When I first started dating my husband, I met a lot of his college friends. And one of them was this woman who always behaved kind of strangely toward me. Whenever I made an attempt to talk or joke with her, I was met with this chilliness or sarcasm that really seemed unwarranted. And when I asked my husband about it, he kind of brushed it off and assured me it wasn't because of any jealousy or past that they had. But as you can imagine, every time I saw her, it was a point of anxiety and really hampered my enjoyment of whatever the occasion was. So this went on for years. And one day I decided to invite her over. We had never hung out one on one before, and it took a few tries, but she finally came and I told her how I felt. Like there was this resistance from her that I couldn't figure out and how it perplexed and saddened me, really. And I swear it was like a pressure release valve just opened up for both of us. She told me she felt the same way. And we essentially figured out that we both tend to mirror other people's energy when we meet them. And I guess we were picking up on each other's hesitance or weird vibes. So things just went wonky from the very beginning. But anyway, we ended up bonding over that and a number of other things. We may have even cried together at some point. But from that day on, we've had this incredible connection and fondness for each other that continues today.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, Leslie, that story might be the poster child for the benefits of disclosure to talk about the risks and benefits of being vulnerable with someone, someone that you are in conflict with.

[Leslie John]

I love this. This is so beautiful. There's two things that really stand out to me about this. The first is this, the self awareness, right? The, ooh, I feel weird around this person. There's something right identifying that instead of brushing it to the side, identifying it. The second thing I love about it is the nature of the disclosure. It's a. It's a meta disclosure. It's like, what. Like, I'm feeling this thing. What is it? And it's kind of now you're engaging that person in a. In a joint problem solving task, right? So it's not. It's not like a. You're like this, and I'm like this, and how are we different? The frame there is, is making the whole thing collaborative, which is very beautiful. But you can think of, like, revealing sensitive things about yourself, like political affiliation and like, I'm thinking of my in laws where we have different political affiliations. And it's. It can easily be conflictual, these conversations, but what I've learned is that if you can actually approach them from a lens of curiosity, like real curiosity, we still disagree, but I understand better and I empathize more. And so if you can get to that point, which takes practice, I think I have found it takes practice. And as we've been saying, feeling understood for who you really are is the key part of connection. I also wanted to say I thought of one anecdote as you were describing this. One of my father's greatest moments. So when we were a kid, my parents had tons of dinner parties. And there was this one dinner party. I just remember this because I was sitting in the other room watching tv, and things got really heated. They were, like, arguing. I don't even know what they were arguing about. And what my dad did was he walked over to the record player and he puts on. What is it? Monty Python's Are we having an argument? This is not how to buy an argument. How to buy an argument. And he puts it on full blast, and it just completely cut the ice. And so it's one of these, like, meta comments, right? It's commenting on the situation. It's like, oh, this is feeling really conflictual and we don't hate each other. What's going on? And when he put that on, it was just like everyone burst out and laughing.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Nora also had a practical suggestion on how we might go about having a conversation like this. And I wanted to play what she

[Leslie John]

shared with us when I invited her over. I had created a special space that I learned from doing talking circles where we sat across from each other on the floor and had a talking piece that we passed back and forth, which I think really helped set an intention of really hearing each other and wanting to heal this thing between us. Like, if we had just met for coffee or sat at a kitchen table. I'm not sure the outcome would have been the same.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, Leslie, what do you make of the technique that Nora used? And are there other techniques like this that can help us be more open with others?

[Leslie John]

Yes. Really important things are receiving the person's disclosure. Well, listening, making eye contact. And less is more. Your job is not to fix. Usually it's to listen and make them feel heard. And to do that, you validate, right? You say, you repeat back what they're saying. You say, I hear you're feeling frustrated. That makes sense. It makes sense that you would feel that way, like those things. I know it sounds like therapy speak, but this has been shown in many, many studies that validation is the single best thing you can do when you receive people's disclosures. But you also want to, you know, if, if you're like in a just like Nora's situation, this rule of reciprocity, right? You want to, you want to share your feelings and you want to invite the other to share theirs. And you want to kind of go back and forth forth like this. And so really the process really, really matters.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I mean, it's a dance, if that's what you're saying.

[Leslie John]

It's a two person dance. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Leslie John is a psychologist at Harvard University. She's the author of Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. Leslie, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

[Leslie John]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy, Paul, Kristin Wong, Laura Kwerell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. If you enjoyed today's conversation, don't keep it a secret. Please share it with a few friends, family members or co workers. Word of mouth recommendations really help new listeners find the show. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

[Jamil Zaki]

All new drinks are now at McDonald's.

[Leslie John]

Like the strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba. You've got ice cold drinks for everybody every moment. Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news, these days, it's the skills that count.

[Leslie John]

Udemy can help you get those in demand.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind?

[Leslie John]

Learn with us.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep.

[Leslie John]

You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So the easiest you can love what you do.

[Leslie John]

Go to udemy.com for the skills to

[Shankar Vedantam]

get you started and get set for your dream job.