The Past is Never Dead

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Hidden Brain – "The Past Is Never Dead"

Date: May 25, 2026
Host: Shankar Vedantam
Guest: Joseph Henrich, Anthropologist, Harvard University

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the deep and often invisible influence of history and culture on our daily lives, beliefs, and institutions. Host Shankar Vedantam and guest Joseph Henrich discuss how seemingly personal choices, family structures, sense of time, and even our psychological wiring are shaped by the long shadow of the past. Using stories ranging from the invention of mechanical clocks to Inuit survival in the Arctic, they reveal that our modern lives are not as self-made as we imagine—cultural evolution continues to sculpt who we are.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Past Shapes the Present

• Introduction to the Episode (00:00–04:23)
  Shankar asks listeners to recall times when they felt disconnected from the past, questioning whether past cultures truly have disappeared from our lives.
  • Quote: “It’s easy to believe the past is sealed off from us, that those lives, those cultures, those ways of thinking have vanished from the world. But is that true in ways we don’t even notice?” — Shankar (01:22)

2. The Invention of Clocks and the Cultural Concept of Time

• Life Before Mechanical Clocks (04:26–07:22)
  Joe Henrich paints a picture of a world ruled by sunlight and agricultural rhythms—where "hours" varied with the seasons, and time was not measured in precise increments.

  • Quote: “Everything was organized around sunrise...and you had to organize your work around those cycles.” — Henrich (05:25)

• Adoption and Spread of Mechanical Clocks (05:54–08:12)

  • Mechanical clocks began spreading through 13th-century Italy into the rest of urban Europe.
  • Public bells synchronized towns, fostering a new kind of communal coordination.
  • Clocks became municipal status symbols, stimulating competition between towns.

• Social and Economic Transformation (07:22–09:47)

  • Clock-driven punctuality became associated with virtue and probity.
  • Productivity and coordination increased as people aligned their schedules, enabling new economic systems: paying by the hour, piece rates, contract enforcement.
  • Quote: “It was seen as a good and orderly life to live by the clock… Punctuality began to be tied to probity, and all this was woven in with religion.” — Henrich (07:50)

• Contrast With Non-clock Societies (09:47–12:35)

  • Henrich shares his experience in Fiji, where watches did not alter collaborators’ relationship with time.
  • In many societies, focus on time is seen as anti-social; emphasis is instead on social connection over efficiency.
  • Quote: “Not paying attention to the clock is actually a more natural state of things, if you will.” — Shankar (11:03)

• The Globalization of Time-as-Money (12:35–13:04)

  • Western metaphors like “time is money” are recent and spread globally.
  • Quote: “Time is this currency that we’re trying to get more of.” — Henrich (12:55)

3. History, Religion, and the Structure of Family Life

• Kin-based Societies in Pre-Christian Europe (15:36–17:30)

  • Extended, clan-based family structures dominant; social and economic security tied to kin networks.
  • Corporate responsibility: familial shame and legal responsibility were collective.
  • Arranged marriages, endogamy, and mutual protection were the norm.
  • Quote: “Kin provided a kind of protection, insurance… all responsible for each other, looking out for each other.” — Shankar (16:43)

• Marriage, Inheritance, and the Catholic Church’s Reforms (17:40–22:36)

  • Church imposed bans on cousin marriage, levirate marriage, and polygyny.
  • Promoted “neolocal” residence: newlyweds set up independent households—a rarity globally.
  • Enforced rules with social and spiritual sanctions like excommunication.
  • Over centuries, this shifted Western Europe toward monogamous nuclear families.
  • Quote: “Being excommunicated had real heft… if someone killed you or injured you, it wasn’t considered a crime.” — Henrich (21:49)

• Emergence of Individualism and Voluntary Associations (22:57–25:49)

  • As kin networks eroded, new institutions (guilds, universities, mutual aid groups) filled social gaps.
  • Emphasis shifted to personal responsibility, voluntary memberships.
  • Quote: “Rather than relationships inherited by birth, you had more of these optional relationships… a marketplace for relationships.” — Henrich (23:12)
  • The church and, later, the state assumed roles in social welfare (orphans, widows).

4. The Nuclear Family as Historical Anomaly

• Anthropological Perspective (26:41–27:48)
  • The Western nuclear family is historically and globally unusual.
  • Most societies permit polygyny, cousin marriage; neolocal residence is rare.
  • The church’s marital reforms led to new forms of social and economic organization.
  • Quote: “It’s as if these norms evolved to build these dense networks of kin… By preventing this, the Church opened the door to new kinds of institutions.” — Henrich (27:38)

5. The "WEIRD" Society and Psychological Differences

• Origins of “WEIRD” (28:05–29:07)

  • Stands for Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic—a label for societies most studied by psychologists but actually globally atypical.
  • Quote: “The populations most studied… were psychologically peculiar.” — Henrich (28:35)

• Ultimatum Game Experiment & Market Norms (29:19–32:29)

  • Henrich’s fieldwork showed that non-market-integrated societies (Peru’s Machiguenga) had very different ideas of fairness and cooperation than “WEIRD” societies.
  • These cultural differences are tied to exposure to markets and social interaction with strangers.
  • Quote: “Why would anyone reject free money in this case?” — Henrich (31:55)

• Analytic vs Holistic Thinking (32:29–34:31)

  • Eye-tracking studies: Americans focus on individuals/objects; East Asians notice background/context.
  • Tied to individualist vs collectivist norms.

6. Culture as Invisible Shaper of Minds and Brains

• Reflection on Cultural Intuition (34:31–35:07)
  • We often assume our culture is simply “human nature”—a mistake.
  • Henrich emphasizes distinguishing universal from local/cultural traits.

7. Cultural Memory, Survival, and the Collective Brain

• The Franklin Expedition: A Case Study (38:32–44:50)

  • British explorers, stranded in the Arctic, failed to survive while local Inuit thrived in the same environment.
  • Survival hinged not on intelligence, but on inherited, cumulative cultural knowledge.
  • Another expedition’s success was due to cooperation with and learning from the Inuit.

• Cultural Intelligence Hypothesis & Collective Brain (45:11–47:08)

  • Humans' large brains evolved primarily for storing and transmitting cultural, not just individual, knowledge.
  • Innovation and creativity depend on the size, interconnectedness, and diversity of the social group.
  • Quote: “What we’re really good at is taking advantage of all the information stored in the mind, minds around us and the minds of others...” — Henrich (45:30)

8. Gene-Culture Coevolution

• Physiological Effects of Cultural Practices (47:31–50:21)
  • Cooking led to changes in human digestive anatomy—a biological response to a cultural innovation.
  • Monogamy vs polygyny and their effects on men’s testosterone: culture shapes endocrinology.
  • Quote: “Institutions… affect the hormonal life cycle pattern.” — Henrich (50:14)

9. Culture, Psychology, and Modern Society

• Culture Shapes Brains and Psychology (50:21–52:21)

  • Our devices, literacy, and practices now physically alter our brains.
  • Learning to read as a child thickens the corpus callosum, changes how we process spoken language.
  • Quote: “A cultural practice, learning to read, actually changes a bunch of things about our brain...” — Henrich (52:08)

• Cultural Expansion, Industrial Revolution, and Creativity (52:21–53:45)

  • The “collective brain” facilitated by new institutions helped spur Europe’s Industrial Revolution.
  • As ideas moved and mixed, innovation accelerated.

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Memorable Quotes

• “The past is never dead. It's not even past.” – Shankar, quoting Faulkner (03:10)
• "What we’re really good at is taking advantage of all the information stored in the mind, minds around us and the minds of others..." – Henrich (45:30)
• “It’s amazing how strong the intuition is, is that however it is where I live is how it is to be human.” — Henrich (34:48)
• “Being excommunicated had real heft… if someone killed you or injured you, it wasn’t considered a crime.” — Henrich (21:49)
• “Culture doesn’t just make us smarter, it can also make us more vulnerable to sickness and to death.” — Shankar (53:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – 04:23: Framing the episode; why the past matters now
• 04:26 – 09:47: Clocks, time, and Western conceptions of routine
• 15:36 – 24:28: Transformation of family, marriage, and social security by the Church
• 26:41 – 29:07: The nuclear family and the "WEIRD" paradigm
• 29:19 – 32:29: Cross-cultural economic and psychological experiments
• 38:32 – 44:50: Franklin’s arctic failure vs. Inuit survival—the cultural intelligence hypothesis
• 45:11 – 50:21: The collective brain, gene-culture co-evolution, and biology
• 50:21 – 53:45: How culture rewires brains, enables innovation, and shapes modernity

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Conclusion

The episode illuminates how even the most ordinary aspects of daily existence—from looking at a clock to sitting down at a family dinner or negotiating in a business setting—are legacies of centuries-old cultural adaptations. Through Henrich’s research, listeners are encouraged to see themselves not as isolated agents, but as inheritors and transmitters of invisible historical forces and traditions.
If you think about yourself as a self-made person, this episode challenges you to see that your mind and habits are, in profound ways, shaped long before you were born.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there, Shankar. Here with some exciting news. Our Live Perceptions tour is returning this summer in partnership with public radio stations around the country. This time we're heading to Northampton, Massachusetts, Burlington, Vermont, Boulder, Colorado, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Blacksburg, Virginia, San Luis Obispo, California, and Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. More information [e-mail] T. I hope to see you at one of our upcoming stops. Okay, here's today's show. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Think about a time you flipped through an old family album. Maybe you paused on a photo of your grandparents as young adults. Their clothes look outdated, their expressions too formal. Perhaps you imagined what it was like to live in that time and found it impossible. Or think of a film set in medieval times. You may have thought, wow, these people lived in a completely different universe. I have so little in common with them. It's easy to believe the past is sealed off from us, that those lives, those cultures, those ways of thinking have vanished from the world. But is that true in ways we don't even notice? The choices, beliefs and habits of people who lived long before us continue to shape how we see the world today. They influence what we value, the kinds of societies we live in, even how we relate to one another. This week on Hidden Brain and in a companion story on Hidden Brain, how culture and history shape the way we think. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Lily. On this show, it's fascinating to discuss the unseen forces shaping the human brain. Consider conditions like Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's disease, where changes in the brain may develop up to 20 years. Before noticing symptoms, talk to your doctor to understand your potential risk factors for dementia due to Alzheimer's disease and ask for a cognitive assessment. Visit brainhealthmatters.com for more information and resources. Support for Hidden brain comes from LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire? They can help grow your business. LinkedIn's new hiring pro screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applicants, you spend time talking to only the right ones. Get started by posting your job for [e-mail] HB terms and conditions apply. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Lowe's. Lowe's Memorial Day event makes summer cookouts easier for less. Save $80 on a Char Broil Performance Series 4 Burner Grill. Now just $199 and keep the food coming. Get up to 45% off select major appliances to keep everything running smoothly. The best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid through May 27, while supplies last selection varies by location. See associate or lowe's.com for details. When you woke up this morning, you turned off your alarm and brushed your teeth. You had a bite to eat, said goodbye to your spouse, and commuted to work. You clocked in for the day. All of this seems so routine, so commonplace, that we don't stop to think about it. We don't realize how the patterns of our lives are shaped by the long ago and the far away. As a novelist, William Faulkner once said, the past is never dead. It's not even past. At Harvard University, Joseph Hendrick has studied how people who lived in previous centuries continue to shape our lives today. Joe Hendrick, welcome to Hidden Brain.

[B]

It's great to be with you, Joe.

[A]

I find myself checking the time constantly. I'm always running from one thing to the other. I sometimes feel like I live my life according to the dictates of my calendar. You've studied what life was like for people before mechanical clocks were. Were invented. Paint me a picture of that world.

[B]

Yeah, that was a world governed by sunrise and sunset, where There were still 12 hours in a day. But the length of those hours varied. There were seasonal rhythms that helped people organize farming. And it was just a very different world than the constant interest in time and how much and saving time and getting more time and thinking of time as money.

[A]

I'm imagining that given that people lived in different time zones and in different latitudes, people really started and ended their days at different times in different places of the world.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, everything was organized around sunrise. And of course, that varies. If you're not along the equator, that changes throughout the year. There were no electric lights. Candles were expensive, so people had to adapt to the availability of light. And of course, everybody was farmers or almost everyone. So that meant that the seasons really mattered a lot, the weather mattered a lot, and you had to organize your work around those cycles.

[A]

I understand the first mechanical clocks appeared around the 13th century.

[B]

That's right. They began spreading in northern Italy, so places like Milan and Parma. But then they were very popular. So they rapidly began spreading amongst urbanizing parts of Europe. So getting to Paris and London. And initially there wasn't a clock per se, it was just tied to bells. So the cities and towns, everybody was within earshot of the ringing bells. And so it would ring the beginning of the day and breakfast and lunch and whatnot. So the entire city would move in clockwork with the ringing bells. And then eventually you get a clock face and things go.

[A]

I understand that various towns began to compete with one another to install beautiful and magnificent clocks.

[B]

That's right. So clocks were a sign of town wealth and prestige. Famous artisans would construct the clocks, and clock makers became an important occupation. And they wanted clocks that were as good as the clock in Vienna or the clock in Paris. You know, competing.

[A]

I'm wondering how this invention changed the way people lived. So now all of a sudden, you're not just going according to the rhythms and cycles of the sun, you actually have something that tells you it's 11 o' clock in the morning or 10 o' clock in the morning or 2 o' clock in the afternoon. How did that change day to day life?

[B]

Yeah, it really changed the economic and political system. So legislatures would begin meeting at certain times of the day, and there were fines if you were late. Contracts began to have exact dates when you had to have things due. Witnesses were told to report at court at a certain hour. So it really just reorganized the society. And not only that, it was seen as a good and orderly life to live by the clock and have regular prayers and regular religious services and show up to work on time. So punctuality began to be tied to probity, and all this was woven in with religion. So of course, monks had long been timing their prayers using candles and hourglasses, and then they began to incorporate the clocks and the bells.

[A]

I understand that there's fascinating research looking at towns and cities that install clocks before other towns and cities, and that this had a profound effect on productivity and wealth.

[B]

Yeah. So this is a fascinating research coming out of economics. And if you look at the few centuries after these towns throughout Europe adopt a clock, you actually see an uptick in economic growth in the centuries after the clock arrives. So it's not an instantaneous effect because people actually have to adapt their thinking. And it takes a long time to get used to thinking in this time thrift way in which we all, you know, we're all very tied to the clock and we've internalized it, but that's not something that automatically happens.

[A]

And do you think this increase in productivity, this increase in wealth, was really a result of people harmonizing their schedules? In other words, I can show up somewhere and I know that someone's gonna meet me at a certain time and place. I don't have to wait two hours for them to show up because in fact, they're following some different cycle.

[B]

Yeah. So it increased people's ability to coordinate, but it also began to affect other things like payment schedules. So once you have clocks, you can pay people by the hour, and then at the same time you get the sp of peace rates. So people begin manufacturing. Markets are spreading across these towns. And then if you pay a piece rate so per horseshoe that you're making, then people begin to think about. And if they have a clock, they can figure out, well, how many horseshoes can I make in an hour? Maybe I can make five. Well, what if I could make six? Then you begin to think about the world like that.

[A]

So you're an anthropologist, Joe. I understand that you were once working in Fiji and you noticed that the way that you think of time was very different from your collaborators in Fiji.

[B]

Yeah, so I was starting a project and I was hiring some students from the University of the South Pacific. Excellent research assistants were assisting me in this village, and we were doing interviews and observations on daily life. We were doing some behavioral experiments, all kinds of different things. So I was kind of running the project in the style I was accustomed to, which meant we had morning meetings and certain appointments, and I would give people a certain amount of time to finish things. And initially, I wasn't having much luck. Although the research assistants were excellent in many ways, they didn't seem to be very tied into the clock the way I was. And so then I bought everyone watches. So I figured, you know, maybe I can solve this with technology. And of course, I was paying everyone. This still didn't seem to change anything at all. Everybody was wearing the watches. And then on one funny occasion, I was working closely, we were looking at this laptop with a research assistant, and I happened to look down at his watch, and it said something like 11:20. And it turned out his watch was about 25 minutes off. And so I think it had been that way for weeks or possibly longer.

[A]

So what's striking, of course, is that people like me certainly sort of bemoan the fact that other people are not punctual or they don't show up. But in some ways, not paying attention to the clock is actually a more natural state of things, if you will.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. In lots of places, it's considered bad to be paying too much attention to the time. When you meet with somebody, you shouldn't be rushing off to your next thing. You should be taking time to connect with them, see how their family is, swap stories, you know, sort of reconnect, focusing on the social. I mean, you know, in some societies, the clock is seen as the kind of the devil. Right. Because it's what drives people away from really forming these Tight social bonds and nurturing the social bonds through time. Psychologists Arnoran Zion and colleagues have actually gone around the world and tried to measure this in different cities. And they found that things like how long it takes to get to a stamp, the rate at which the guy behind the counter is moving actually varies from city to city. And they actually correlated with the measures of individualism for those cities.

[A]

Meaning that places with higher individualism are more punctual and vice versa.

[B]

That's right. And the person behind the counter is actually moving faster. And the clocks in public places are more accurate so that you can measure the accuracy of the clocks in public places.

[A]

What's fascinating here is that these conceptions of time have seeped into our lives to the point that we are not thinking about them anymore. It's hard to imagine a time when people didn't keep track of time.

[B]

Yeah. And it restructures our life. One of the amazing things, and you can find this in the work of Ben Franklin, is that he emphasizes the equation between time and money, which is not something you find elsewhere. And of course, this metaphor has now spread globally. And this is one of the things that dominates our life. You know, we're always wasting time, saving time, losing time. You know, time is this currency that we're trying to get more of.

[A]

We like to think our choices, our thoughts, and our habits are entirely our own. But in reality, our individual choices are often echoes of centuries of cultural evolution. When we come back, the role of history in shaping our behavior, thoughts, and feelings. You're listening to hidden brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support for hidden brain comes from Lily. On this show, it's fascinating to discuss the unseen forces shaping the human brain. Consider conditions like Alzheimer's disease, where changes in the brain may develop up to 20 years before noticing symptoms. Talk to your doctor to understand your potential risk factors for dementia due to Alzheimer's disease and ask for a cognitive assessment. Visit brainhealthmatters.com for more information and resources. Support for hidden Brain comes from Sleep Number. Life changes. Your mattress should too. Sleep Number's new collections are designed for personalized comfort that evolves with you as your body, health and lifestyle change. You can adjust firmness anytime for lasting support. It's the everything on sale Memorial Day event from Sleep number. Every bed and base is on sale now. Visit a Sleep Number store near you or learn [e-mail]. This is Hidden brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. We think that the lives we lead are shaped by the choices we make. But many of the routines we follow were shaped by centuries of history and cultural evolution. Anthropologist Joseph Hendrick looks at the way history and cultural evolution shape what we think, how we see the world and, and the decisions we make. He's found that even things we see today as moral and right were often inventions by ancient actors who had specific goals and political aims in mind. I want to talk about the relationships that undergird most of our lives today. Joe. Marriage, the nuclear family, rules of inheritance transport me back to pre Christian Europe. What were familial relationships like for most people back then?

[B]

Well, at that point in European history, the kinship systems, the families, the clans look like large extended families. In Europe, it's patrilineal. In lots of other places in the world, it's matrilineal. People inherit through the family by custom. Their societies are organized by clans. The economic system, the political system is all very tied into these kin relationships. So, for example, many kin groups have corporate responsibility, which means if some, someone else in your clan, or including especially your brother, commits a crime, then you can be held responsible. So you're considered synonymous with your close kin. If someone within your kin group does something shameful, then it actually brings shame on you. So shame is contagious. Through these kin networks, marriages are often arranged. People pay bride price or dowry. This forms a bond between groups. And people are also tending to marry endogamously. So with close, close kin, some like cousins, things like that, or other relatives

[A]

and kin also provided a kind of Social Security, they provided a kind of protection, insurance. I mean, so you had these large groups in some ways, and they were all responsible for each other, looking out for each other.

[B]

That's right. So they're not only the core of the economic system, but they provided a social safety net. So if your husband dies, a typical thing would be you would marry his brother and then you would maintain the bond and as a woman, you would be taken care of and your children would still be part of that kin group. So there was all these social norms to kind of take care of things. If both parents were killed, then the children would automatically go to other members of the family where they'd be raised and taken care of and whatnot.

[A]

So at one point, the Roman Catholic Church begins to spread across Europe. Pope Gregory dispatches a mission with specific instructions regarding marriage in particular.

[B]

Yeah, this is happening all throughout Europe as missionaries are moving from the Roman Empire and from Rome out to the Celtic tribes and other Anglo Saxon tribes, other Germanic tribes, to try to spread Christianity to These places. And when this monk named Augustine arrives in Kent, he begins to convert the King. And his wife, who was already Christian, she married, and she was a Frankish princess. So Augustine queried the Pope to find out what kinds of things he should be conveying as he faces these challenges from the local people in Kent. And so one question he asked the Pope is, how distant must a relative be for a Christian marriage to be permissible? So can I marry second cousins? Can I marry third cousins? Another question was, can a man marry his stepmother or his brother's wife? And then can two brothers marry two sisters? And can a man receive communion after a sex dream?

[A]

How did the Pope respond to these questions?

[B]

Yeah, so the Pope, to the first question, he said, definitely can't marry first cousins. During this period in history, the Church was definitely banning first cousins. They would go on to ban all the way out to six cousins. But at this point, you could marry your second cousins and you cannot marry your stepmother. So it's not about genetic relatedness. It's about these family relationships that are created. Certainly not your brother's wife. So that would be a kind of levirate marriage. And the Church banned that pretty early on in the history of the Catholic Church. Two brothers can marry two sisters. So that was okay.

[A]

So another papal commission arrives in England a couple of centuries later. They're checking in on the progress of Christianizing the Anglo Saxons. What does it find?

[B]

Yes, and in general, there's a lot of progress on people officially accepting Christianity. Lots of people have been baptized, but there's still problems around what they describe as incest, by which they mean cousin marriage of various kinds, and also polygyny. So elite men are taking one primary wife, but they're also marrying other women as secondary wives and concubines.

[A]

And so I'm imagining the Church might not look kindly on these developments.

[B]

Yeah, so the question was, is how do we put an end to this? You know, we like the idea that the Church is spreading and these people are becoming Christians, but these forms of family weren't acceptable. So one of the things that the Christians really pushed the. The Church leadership really pushed was the notion of illegitimate children. So the lever they used was that unless you were married in an official Christian church, then you're an illegitimate child, which meant secondary wives. In this system, like in many places around the world, their children still had some inheritance rights. They were still recognized by the community. But the Church tries to put an end to that to prevent not only inheritance of wealth, but succession. And this is going to Affect the royalty a lot, because it means the church controls who gets to be the next leader. When you have this scent of power down the bloodline,

[A]

One of the other things that the church required was to ask newly married couples to set up independent households. Talk about this idea, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. So that's called neolocal residence, and it's very rare in a global and historical perspective. So when young couples will marry, typically they would live either with the groom's family or the bride's family, depending on whether they're patrilocal or matrilocal. So that's the anthropological terminology. But what we find in Europe during this period is the church are encouraging them to marry later and set up an independent residence so that they're independent from either side of the family. And so you have a new couple making their own decisions. Decisions, independent of the family.

[A]

Now, I imagine that there must have been some people who looked at these new rules and said, you know, the hell with these rules. I'm just going to go my own way and do my own thing. Were there punishments for people who violated these rules?

[B]

Yeah, there could be quite severe punishments. So the church can always excommunicate you. And then there's something even more severe called an anathema. And excommunication might, in the modern context, not sound very severe, but it meant you couldn't enter into contracts with other Christians. You were ostracized. Those who might associate with an excommunicated individual got some of this spiritual taint on them, and it could affect their relationships. And in some cases, the church's protection of you was withdrawn. So if someone killed you or injured you, it wasn't considered a crime. So being excommunicated had real heft.

[A]

Did all this change the way people behaved, Joe?

[B]

It took a long time, but it eventually breaks European families in different parts of Europe, to differing degrees, down into monogamous nuclear families. So you went from large clans and kindreds down to, you know, the husband, wife, and the children, and that was the basic family unit.

[A]

One of the things that happened as a byproduct of this is that people started to think in terms of individual rights and personal responsibility rather than always prioritizing family loyalty and kin. Talk about this. I find this fascinating, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, because what the church did by having these prohibitions and prescriptions about marriage in the family is you no longer had a big clan or this large extended family that you could rely on. You couldn't build alliances by marriage very easily. People Began to set up voluntary associations where people would join. These were often Christian based. You'd have to take an oath, and in order to get those organizations interested in you, you'd have to have certain attributes and accomplishments and things you brought to the table. So rather than having a large number of relationships that you inherited by birth and had via all these various kin ties, you had more of these optional relationships where you had. It was kind of a. More of a marketplace for relationships. So this affected finding mates. So rather than arranged marriages, you had to find your mates, friends, business partners, all these sorts of things. And it led to the proliferation of these voluntary associations.

[A]

Hmm. You talked earlier about how kin groups would look after one another. So if someone was in trouble or if someone lost a spouse or children, lost their parents, the kin, the larger kin, would look after the person who needed help. What happened to those systems as things became more individualized?

[B]

Yeah, a few different things. So the one thing the church did, it had to step forward almost immediately on this, is to take care of orphans and widows, because normally they were sort of just slotted right into the kinship system and there were norms that took care of them. What the church did meant that there was really no one to care for orphans and widows. So the church began to take them in and they became core members of the church. In that sense. These voluntary associations that people would join were also mutual self help groups. So you would all mutually agree to help each other out if you were injured or had a period of unemployment or, you know, in your old age and whatnot. And then eventually, after the beginning of Protestantism, when the. The church is not doing this in places like England, after Henry VIII gets rid of all the. All the Catholic institutions, Queen Elizabeth initiates the poor laws of 1600. And this is the beginning to lay an official secular social safety net under. Under people who might need it.

[A]

So in some ways, the picture that you're painting, of course, shows us how many of the institutions that we're familiar with today actually had a point of origin. That in fact they arose as a result of choices made by specific actors and specific circumstances. And many of them had specific political and social goals.

[B]

That's right. But a lot of it is also unintended consequences. So the church, of course, was doing this because they believe that this is how God wanted it. And so when plagues would hit, the church would explain the plague as a consequence of there being too much incest, by which they meant too much cousin marriage and the breakdown of these families into monogamous Nuclear families inadvertently led to the rise of these voluntary associations which gave us the many charter towns of Europe, universities, new kinds of monasteries, and these mutual self help associations which eventually become occupational guilds. So many of those things become some of the core institutions of Western society.

[A]

Talk about the family, the kind of family that we are used to seeing around these days, the nuclear family. You know, husband, wife, kids living by themselves. Talk about how that's actually quite unusual in the history of the species on the planet.

[B]

Yeah, so when you look at the anthropological data on this. So anthropologists have put together something called the Ethnographic Atlas, which is over 1200 diverse societies that have been studied in ethnographic detail. You find that most 85% of societies allow elite and high status men to marry additional wives. You find cousin marriage in most societies is permitted. Neolocal residence is very rare, although common in the west, as we discussed. And just many other kinship practices like levirate marriage, which you don't find in the west, are common around the world. So it's as if these norms evolved to build these dense networks of kin to organize production and consumption and distribution. And by preventing this from happening in parts of Western Europe, the Church actually opened the door to new kinds of institutions and new ways of thinking about the world.

[A]

World. Hmm. You coined the term for the kind of modern psychology that animates Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic societies. Tell me about this term, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, so this began in about 2005 when I arrived at the University of British Columbia. And there I was moving out of anthropology into psychology. And I encountered two colleagues, Steve Heine and Ara Norenzayan. And we would go to lunch together and we were each talking about our research and we were studying, all studying cultural differences. And what we had each independently found is that not only was there interesting cultural variation around the world, but that the populations most studied by psychologists and economists were psychologically peculiar when placed in a global and historical perspective. So we began to think about and try to put together a case, trying to convince psychologists and economists that they needed to think more broadly, broadly about psychological variation and just not generalized to all of humans based on one common culture that they most commonly studied. So we coined this acronym, or I guess it's a backronym, weird, it stands for Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic.

[A]

You notice differences between these so called weird societies and other types of cultures while you were working with a tribe in the Peruvian Amazon. Tell me about this work and what you found.

[B]

Yeah, so this was my very first anthropological fieldwork And I went to the Peruvian Amazon. I flew in on missionary planes and landed on the river and went into the village. And then I traveled around in a dugout canoe around to the different villages. And at this point in my career, this is kind of the mid-1990s. Now studying cooperation and one of the ideas that we were thinking about was the possibility that the willingness of other people to punish poor behavior, non cooperative behavior, unfair behavior might be part of the reason why humans are able to cooperate so much compared to other species. And so we were thinking about that and then I heard about this experiment called the Ultimatum game. And the Ultimatum game is a simple bargaining game from economics in which two players are allotted a sum of money. And the first player can offer a portion of this money to the second player. The second player can either accept or reject. If they accept, both players get the amounts that were allocated. Or if they reject, then both players get zero. So for example, if the first player offers $10 out of the hundred to the second player and the second player accepts, they get 10 and the first player gets 90. If they reject, both players get zero. So when this had been done by economists in places like the US and, and in Zurich and elsewhere, they had found that Most people offer 50, 50 and that low offers are frequently rejected. That sort of fit my intuitions. So I thought that I could perform this experiment among the Macha Ganga and they would show similar results. It seemed intuitive and that then this would be an interesting piece of the puzzle in trying to explain human cooperation. But what I found was that they, they didn't feel inclined to reject at all. And people gave pretty low offers. So on average people gave only 25% of the stake instead of 50% and lots of people gave 15%. So this led to a big project. And we did this experiment in many different places and we found a great deal of global variation.

[A]

What do you think explains this? What's happening in the minds of people in Peru that is different from Los Angeles?

[B]

Well, I think it relates to a larger story that you and I discussed with the spread of the clock. It has to do with market integration. And so what we found across these communities is that the more market integrated communities seem to have norms about fair dealing with anonymous others, with impersonal people you would just meet and not know their name or not know anything about their families. So more market integrated societies have norms that say you should just generally be fair minded with people who you don't know and won't see again. Whereas the Machiganga Lifestyle is small scale farming. They live scattered throughout the tropical farms forests of Peru, north of Cusco, where Machu Picchu is. And they're just not a lot of trade and exchange. So they don't have these market norms. And so to them, when I would interview them after, they would be like, yeah, why would anyone reject free money in this case? Which is pretty close to the rational thing one might expect based on the game theory.

[A]

Yeah, right. The differences between these so called weird cultures and other cultures also show up up in different psychological tests. Some research has been conducted looking at eye tracking movements between Americans and East Asians. Tell me about this work.

[B]

Yeah, so this is very interesting because it's perceptual. So psychologists have shown there's this tremendous variation in analytic versus holistic thinking. And one of the hallmarks that they found in terms of attention is what people pay attention to when they look at a scene or a picture or a video. And Americans more analytically oriented societies will tend to focus on the central object. So in this case, imagine it's a scene, an underwater scene with fish swimming around. The Americans tend to focus on the central fish and they watch what the central fish does. They don't tend to notice very much stuff in the background. The folks from East Asia would remember a lot more about what was going in the background and their eyes would cover more of the scene and just not kind of glued to the central axis.

[A]

Do you think this is again evidence of the propensity of weird societies to focus on individualism and individual objects?

[B]

Yeah, so this seems to be part of a larger package. You know, in an individualistic society, people tend to focus on themselves and their own attributes and they think about others dispositionally. So what are the attributes of another person, honest or dishonest, without thinking of all the contextual variation. Whereas if you're from a more holistic society, a more collectivistic society, you're thinking about the relationships between individuals. People aren't either honest or dishonest. They're honest in some circumstances with some kinds of people and not so honest in other kinds of circumstances. So there's this interesting different ways of thinking about the world.

[A]

One of the things that I find fascinating about all of this is that it highlights just how much much we can take culture for granted. So for example, we might live in mostly monogamous societies, and so we assume that humans must be wired for monogamy. That in fact might not be the case.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing how strong the intuition is, is that however it is where I live is how it is to be human. So yeah, one of the things I've been most interested over my career is trying to figure out what is actually pan human and what is just. The particular societies that we grow up in,

[A]

the invention of clocks and religious rules for marriage all profoundly influence the way modern people think and behave. More about how culture shapes our minds when we come back. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Pacific Life Insurance Everyone knows promises have power. From pinky swears to cross my heart to I do. We make them throughout our entire lives. Anyone can make promises. What matters is keeping them. For nearly 160 years, the people at Pacific Life have been helping you keep yours. Whether it's protecting your today or planning your tomorrow, they're with you every step of the way. Pacific Life the Power of a Promise Ask a financial professional about how Pacific Life can help you create a more confident financial future. Pacific Life Insurance Company Omaha, Nebraska and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Support for Hidden Brain comes from BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month, a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to do it alone. From loneliness epidemics to anxiety and Sunday scaries to financial stress, right now Americans are struggling. And while most people believe that seeking out support is important, many still don't take that step. That's where BetterHelp comes in. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist who's there with you to listen, understand, and support you on your terms. Schedule sessions conveniently via the app and talk to your therapist by video phone or live chat. BetterHelp matches you with a therapist who's with you through life's ups and downs. Because no journey should be alone. Sign up now and get 10% [e-mail] hidden that's betterhelp.com hidden. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Have you ever given thought to how your daily life might be shaped by events from the distant past or by traditions thousands of miles away? If you have a personal example you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience about how the past shapes your behavior today? Please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Email the file to [e-mail] Use the subject line Culture Again, that's feedbackiddenbrain.org Anthropologist Joseph Hendrick is the author of the books the Secret of Our how culture is driving human evolution, domesticating our species and making us smarter and the weirdest people in the world. How the west became psychologically peculiar and particularly Prosperous. Joe. In June 1845, two ships set sail from Britain in search of the fabled Northwest Passage. Tell me about this mission and the man who was leading it. Yeah.

[B]

So this mission was led by Sir John Franklin, and it was an effort to find the fabled Northwest Passage with economic goals of energizing trade and connecting Europe and East Asia and also doing some mapping of that area, understanding the magnetic field. And it was a fascinating expedition because it was kind of the Apollo mission of the 19th century. This was a super well outfitted ship. It had icebreaker technology, it had retractable screw propellers, it was insulated with cork. There were desalinators on board. And it had a new technology, canned food, which was meant to allow the crews to live for over a year trapped in the ice in the north. So they were ready to engage in this exploration, and they were led by this experienced guy, John Franklin. And so they headed out and the very beginning of the trip went fine. They were exploring the islands north of Canada. They wintered near an island called Devon Island. The ice came in around the ship, as expected. I guess they cracked open the canned food and waited the winter out until the ice retreated, and then they kept exploring. But the next year, they were near King William island and they were exploring around there, and the ice came in again and froze them in. That was all expected, but the next summer, the ice didn't seem to retract, and so they were going to have to winter again. And that seemed like that was going to be a problem. Their leader Franklin promptly died. So the men were trapped in the ice, and they were faced with a challenge of living off the land because they have to see if they can use their big brains and great intelligence to figure out how to do something very basic, which is surviving in the Arctic.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

Well, things did not go well, so the men eventually left the ship and they began trying to survive on King William's Island. They left some notes along the way which were later found, and the ships have soon been found. So we're not exactly sure what happened, although we know from tales from the Inuit bands that they encountered that there was probably some cannibalism going on. One Inuit story has them first encountering them and beginning to exchange some meat. But then they realize the men are carrying frozen limbs, and it turned out frozen limbs of their comrades, probably. And then the men all just disappear and leave no trace of them other than the stories in the minds of the Inuit. It led to a big rescue expedition. So explorers from all around the world converged on the Canadian Arctic to try to find these guys.

[A]

Now, you pointed out something really interesting in passing here, which is that there were people who were living in this area, presumably successfully, for a long period of time. Why couldn't these men survive?

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing. The group, the Nescalate, that was living there, Inuit, their word for the island that Franklin was trapped on his land of fate.

[A]

Fat.

[B]

Because for them it was a rich environment that they could live on and winter on the ice and hunt seals and in other seasons shoot caribou with their bows. They could render seal blubber or seal fat into oil that they could use for lights, for illumination and heating. They could spear salmon. During certain seasons, they made kayaks there. To them, there was just a lot of resources there. But to Franklin's men, and, you know, it was this barren expanse and, you know, it seemed impossible to survive there.

[A]

I understand that some years before this expedition, another crew had found themselves stranded in the same area. Tell me about this group and what happened to them.

[B]

Yeah, that was led by an explorer named Ross. And I think it's a great example because we can compare the explorers that did well on King William's island with what happened to the Franklin expedition and the main differences in how they interacted with the Inuit. So the Ross expedition begins to open up trade relationships with the Inuit. They're able to get all kinds of clothing and food, and so they're just able to survive much more easily. By taking advantage of the vast knowledge of the Inuit, they travel and explore through their new allies and new friends with the Inuit.

[A]

You described several things that the Inuit were able to teach the visitors, including fairly complex tasks involving hunting and trapping. Can you describe some of these for me just to show how intricate this knowledge system was?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the amount of insight and knowledge and skill that the Inuit have to survive in this environment is really incredible. Incredible. So one thing that is the Inuit routinely did during this period was they would be able to hunt seals. And so you had to figure out where the seals are going to be. And it had to be an area that was covered with snow, so you couldn't hear your feet. You had to create the hole in the ice. You had to know, or you would find the holes and you would see if they were actively used by seals. And then you would use a spear to wait there until you Got a sense that the seal was there. And there had little feather markers that would tell you if the seal was there. And then you would plunge your harpoon into the hole. You needed a special bare bone handle because you needed some really strong materials for the end of it that you would use to drive into the seal. And then of course, you had to know what to do with the seal once you got it out. They also made sleds and they made use of dogs and they made this special cold weather clothing. So just an immense range of cultural knowledge.

[A]

And of course, this is not, not testament to the fact that the Inuit were necessarily smarter than their visitors. They'd had more time and they'd passed on this knowledge presumably from generation to generation, each generation adding some new insights.

[B]

Yeah, so that's the key thing, is that the Nescalate benefited from this cumulative cultural evolution. So over generations, this large body of knowledge had increasingly adapted the Inuit to surviving in this environment. So it wasn't that they were smarter, it's that they had this large body of cumulative knowledge which Franklin's men did not have.

[A]

So this gets at something that researchers call the cultural intelligence hypothesis. What is this hypothesis, Joe?

[B]

Well, this is the idea that really what our brains have evolved and why they've gotten so much bigger than our primate relatives or than our ancestors 2 million years ago, is that our brains evolved to acquire, store and organize cultural information. So it's not that our brains have evolved to individually solve problems. What we're really good at is taking advantage of all the information stored in the mind, minds around us and the minds of others, and then we acquire that, and we can even create new things by recombining things that we acquire from different people.

[A]

So this kind of cultural transmission of knowledge and ideas leads to an idea that you call the collective brain. What do you mean by this, Joe?

[B]

Well, the collective brain emerges when people are learning from each other because information is flowing around from different minds. And once you have this view, the ability of a society to generate innovation or creative ideas, this process of cumulative cultural evolution that we referred to before, is going to depend on the size of the population, the social interconnectedness among individuals, because that allows the information to flow and the cognitive diversity in those minds. So you're actually going to get more creativity and more innovation out of a population when you have a larger population that's more interconnected and more cognitively diverse. And that's the collection of to bring.

[A]

And you can see this in places like Silicon Valley, for example, where lots of people are interacting with each other, Lots of people are learning from each other, and things are able to progress relatively quickly because people are building very rapidly on top of what other people have built.

[B]

That's right. And you see this all over the place. So for example, when railroads were spreading across the US or in Sweden or in Germany, when a town got hooked into the larger collective brain, you begin to get more creative products coming from that town. Just the simple physical link,

[A]

This touches on something that you call gene culture, co evolution. What does this mean?

[B]

Well, one of the key elements of human history that is really emerging now is that a lot of the interesting aspects of our physiology, anatomy and biology were actually driven, driven by selection pressures created by cultural evolution. And so one of the best studied cases of gene culture coevolution is the spread of fire, making a fire and cooking. And so if you look at our anatomy and physiology, our digestive tract, and you compare it to other species, our fellow apes and stuff, we seem to have stomachs that are too small, colons that are too small, we have these tiny teeth. But these actually make sense once you realize that we've long been a primate that cooks its food, because cooking acts as a kind of pre digestion food processing more generally. And then this allowed natural selection to reduce the size of our stomachs, shrink our colons, give us these small teeth, because we do the digestion in this cultural way by taking advantage of fire and cooking. But of course, we don't innately know how to make fire or cook. So this is something that is completely culturally transmitted, but then has dramatically shaped our physiology in anatomy.

[A]

Another example of how our genetic inheritance and cultural practices are intertwined has to do with the practice of monogamy and testosterone levels in men. Tell me about this research, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, so this is one of these things where the assumption that everybody was monogamous people began to make generalizations and one of the things that they generalized is that testosterone declines over men's lives. But then anthropologists began to study other societies and looking and comparing what happens to men's testosterone in polygynous versus monogamous societies. So the standard result from monogamous societies is that men testosterone declines after they marry, and then it declines again after they have their first child. And this makes good sense in comparisons with other species, because declines in testosterone are associated with fatherhood in other species. You're beginning to engage in the nest, you've stopped your pursuit of mates, and you're not engaging in much competition with other males at this point. Because you're moving into a fatherhood phase. But in polygynous societies, we don't see the decline, which fits the theory really well. But it just shows how institutions, whether you're going to have polygamy or anogamy, affects the endocrinology of human bodies. And so you need to think of cultural endocrinology. So the institutions affect the hormonal life cycle pattern.

[A]

So we've talked about all the ways in which history influences our culture. Culture that influences not just our psychology, but also our biology, that feeds back into the whole cycle and can influence history. Again, talk about sort of the role that this is playing in transforming our understanding of our minds and our societies. Because I think when most of us think about human psychology, you know, we tend to think of it in terms of what's happening inside the individual brain. What's happening inside. Inside this one person's head. And really what you're painting is a picture that is far, far larger.

[B]

Yes, that's right. So in the picture that I'm painting, our institutions, our languages and our technologies feed back and they shape our psychology. Now, of course, what we just talked about was gene culture coevolution. So in the long run, they might affect our genetic evolution. But what's underappreciated is how much these things shape our psychology in the short term, because our minds have evolved through this gene culture, coeval evolutionary process to adapt developmentally as we're growing up in these different environments. So something like our cell phones are going to affect things like our memory and our attention. So they're actually changing how things are processed in our minds. One of my favorite examples of this is, you know, for most of human history, people didn't read. It was really not until the 16th century that large segments of the population began to. To read. But when you learn to read as a child, it actually reshapes the wiring in your brain so that you get thicker corpus callosum. That's the information highway that connects the right and left hemispheres. You get specialized circuitry in your left ventral hemisphere, and you get more whole brain activation even when you hear spoken language. So it doesn't just affect the reading, it actually affects how we process spoken language. So it's just a case where a cultural practice, learning to read, actually changes a bunch of things about our brain and about how we take in information.

[A]

I'm wondering if this can also explain things like the Industrial revolution. Joe, when you think about a sudden explosion of technological innovation, creativity, et cetera, do you think that's driven in part by this kind of cultural learning.

[B]

Yeah, I really think that that is a core idea and I bring that out in the weirdest people in the world in my book. So when these monogamous nuclear families formed and personal institutions be created, people were released from the bonds of their kinship. And we know from historical data that they began moving around Europe and the nature of the institutions also changed. So monasteries became these transnational franchises and artisans would have a journeyman phase in which they would go out to work with other masters after they finished training with this. All this led to greater movement of ideas around Europe, which led to more rapid innovation. Urbanization, of course, was rising during during this whole period for the same reason. Universities were one of the institutions, the voluntary associations that spread and eventually Protestant gives rise to literacy. All of these things come together to just create a much larger collective brain in Europe that eventually results in the Industrial Revolution and really gives birth to the modern world.

[A]

Culture doesn't just make us smarter, it can also make us more vulnerable to sickness and to death. In our companion episode, exclusively for our subscribers to Hidden Brain plus, we look at how cultural beliefs can produce higher rates of illness, homicide, and suicide. If you're already a subscriber, that episode is available to you right now in this podcast feed. If you titled How Culture Can Harm youm. If you're not yet a subscriber, please consider signing up. Go to support.hiddenbrain.org if you're using an Apple device, go to Apple Co HiddenBrain. You can get a free trial in both places and you'll instantly have access to all our subscriber only content. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org or apple.com. Joseph Hendrick is an anthropologist at Harvard University. He's the author of the Weirdest People in the World, how the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous and the Secret of Our How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species and Making Us Smarter Joseph Hendrick, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

[B]

Well, it was great to be with you.

[A]

Have you ever given thought to how your daily life might be shaped by events in the distant past or by traditions thousands of miles away? If you have a personal example, you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience about how the past may be shaping your behavior today? Or a question or comment about this episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Two or three minutes is plenty. Email the file to [e-mail] use the subject line Culture Again. That's feedbackiddenbrain.org. Hidden brain is produced by hidden brain media. Our audio production team includes annie murphy, kristin wong, laura kwerell, ryan katz, autumn barnes, andrew chadwick and nick woodbury. Tara boyle is our executive producer. I'm hidden brains executive editor. I'm shankar vedantam. See you soon.

[C]

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[B]

Kinda like him. Are you shaking a maraca?

[D]

Nope.

[C]

I'm shaking the pill version of Ozempic which no one should ever do except in ads like this.

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Nice disclaimer.

[C]

Hey, thanks. Ask your doctor about which FDA approved uses of the Ozempic pen or pill may be right for you. Call 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and learn more about ozempic semaglutide tablets 9 milligrams and ozempic semagLutide injection 2 milligrams there's a pill version of Ozempic.

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