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- [00:02]
Martin DeCaro
You can never have too many tools. Shop Dewalt deals at Lowe's. Get a free select Dewalt 20 volt max power tool when you buy a select 20 volt max 5amp hour battery kit. Plus get a free additional Dewalt 20 volt max 8amp hour battery when you
- [00:16]
Jeremy Suri
buy a Dewalt 10 inch 20 volt
- [00:17]
Martin DeCaro
max dual bevel compounded miter saw. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 624. Wall supplies last selection varies by location. History as it happens June 19, 2026 remembering the bicentennial these days we seem
- [00:39]
Rick Perlstein
to spend so much of our time and energy surviving and reacting to the unhappy events and the strife and the
- [00:44]
Jeremy Suri
conflict in our overcrowded world.
- [00:46]
Rick Perlstein
But the Bicentennials seem to awaken a certain the Bicentennial celebration of America's independence. 200 years of liberty celebrated in a glorious birthday party. At the start, the Declaration of Independence proclaims the divine source of individual and the purpose of human government as Americans understood it.
- [01:06]
Jeffrey Engel
They're selling ties, paper clips, pens, cups,
- [01:10]
Rick Perlstein
Liberty Bell emblems, anything you can think of. Operation Sale was a magnificent success from every angle, even more beautiful and spectacular than we were led to believe it would be.
- [01:20]
Martin DeCaro
If you think Americans are in no mood to celebrate the semi quincentennial, it was a very strange and disorienting time to be alive. In the summer of 76, 1976, on the heels of Vietnam and Watergate, mired in something called stagflation, Americans were called on to celebrate the nation's bicentennial. Then did they answer the call? That's next, as we report history as it happens. I'm Martin DeCaro.
- [01:48]
Jeremy Suri
We were just coming out of the Vietnam War and the fall of Saigon. We were coming out of a scandalous presidency, and the country felt that democracy was not working, the economy was not working, the country was in decline. We thought internationally. We had gone through one oil crisis, we were on the cusp of another one. So it was a very sour, dark mood for the country.
- [02:13]
Rick Perlstein
For the first time in many years, New Yorkers of all ages and backgrounds out in force, celebrating together. It reminded you of a small town celebration of the Fourth of July, an idealized Norman Rockwell tableau.
- [02:27]
Martin DeCaro
On July 3, 1973, three years before the Bicentennial, the New York Times reported that a shifting mood, widespread lack of interest, partisan politics, and long inaction have resulted in a considerable scaling down of the nation's plans to commemorate its bicentennial. Again, that was in 1973 Nixon and Watergate were covering Americans and a layer
- [02:51]
Rick Perlstein
of soot because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook.
- [02:57]
Martin DeCaro
By the summer of 1976, writes Leslie Kennedy, the United States was hungry for a reset. The American Bicentennial arrived as both a distraction and a snapshot of the national mood. Part patriotic revival, part marketing wave.
- [03:12]
Rick Perlstein
Last year, a toilet seat was a toilet seat. This year, sporting red, white and blue trim, it's a bicentennial toilet seat. From commemorative lapel pins to caskets, this is the year of the Bicentennial sales pitch.
- [03:25]
Martin DeCaro
As historian Rick Pearlstein writes in the Invisible Bridge, there was plenty for skeptics to feast upon when America celebrated its 200th birthday. But the skeptics turned out to be lonely. Everyone else just forgot their fears and had fun. They heeded John Adams, who said, when the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, it ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfire and illuminations from one end of this continent to the other. From this time forward, forevermore, the bicentennial
- [03:59]
Rick Perlstein
celebration of America's independence. 200 years of liberty celebrated in a glorious birthday party. The greatest convocative of sailing ships in 25 centuries sails beneath the Verrazano Bridge.
- [04:11]
Martin DeCaro
And so it was, writes Pearlstein, beginning where light first reached the North American continent, high atop Mars Hills Mountain in Maine, when NBC And CBS began 16 hours of live coverage with the raising of the Bicentennial flag to the accompaniment of a 50 gun salute came next, a riot of parades and picnics as Pearlstein clanging firetrucks, clambakes, rodeos, sack races, ox roasts, barbecues, nostalgia, which a grateful nation drank in like so much ice cold lemonade. America, the beautiful land of the free, home of the brave, My country tis of thee. And it all felt very, very good, he says. Yes, people yearn to believe, suspicious circles be damned.
- [04:54]
Rick Perlstein
Are you a patriotic nut? No, not at all. Then what? What happened to you?
- [04:59]
Jeffrey Engel
We just got caught up in the feeling.
- [05:01]
Martin DeCaro
I didn't think I was going to care.
- [05:03]
Rick Perlstein
And then when the day came, there we were.
- [05:06]
Martin DeCaro
Just felt great. So what's going to happen in a couple of weeks? Will Americans forget about all that's wrong in their lives and in the country and don some red, white and blue and throw a barbecue, watch some fireworks? Well, probably, yes. It's what we do every year. It won't be a cure, just a 24 hour break. A pew Research poll out a couple of days ago found only 29% of Americans are satisfied with the direction of the country. 59% say the country's best days are behind it. Not for the first time are Americans feeling this way. They had real reasons to feel that way in the mid-1970s because it was a difficult time. Still, they celebrated on July 4th.
- [05:47]
Rick Perlstein
It will be a time when the whole community draws together to share the past and summon up the future.
- [05:53]
Jeffrey Engel
Everybody is in the spirit of the birthday move. Yesterday morning on the train, one lady came in and said happy Birthday everybody.
- [06:00]
Jeremy Suri
And everybody chimed in and singing Happy Birthday, America.
- [06:03]
Rick Perlstein
It was a beautiful they boldly reversed the age old political theory that kings derive their powers from from God and asserted that both powers and unalienable rights belong to the people as direct endowments from their creator.
- [06:24]
Martin DeCaro
Let's travel back to 1976 with Jeremy Surrey, who teaches history at the LBJ School of Public affairs at the University of Texas at Austin and who writes the Democracy of Hope newsletter on substack and Jeffrey Engel, the founding director of the center for Presidential History at Southern Methodist University. Jeremy Suri, welcome back, my friend.
- [06:44]
Jeremy Suri
Good to be with you.
- [06:45]
Martin DeCaro
Martin and Jeffrey Engel, hello.
- [06:47]
Jeffrey Engel
Always good to see you.
- [06:49]
Martin DeCaro
So we think we're living through strange times today as we approach 250America in the summer of 76, 1976. Jeremy, we'll start with you. What was the national mood?
- [07:03]
Jeremy Suri
Pretty poor. We were just coming out of the Vietnam War and the fall of Saigon. We were coming out of a scandalous presidency and the country felt that democracy was not working, the economy was not working, the country was in decline. We thought internationally. We had gone through one oil crisis. We were on the cusp of another one. So it was a very sour, dark mood for the country.
- [07:30]
Martin DeCaro
Jeffrey Engel, would you agree? Cynicism, disillusionment, anger, disgust, maybe a sense the United States was, to use a word we're hearing a lot nowadays, in decline.
- [07:43]
Jeffrey Engel
Oh, there's no doubt that decline is really the way in which people interpreted it at the time. We're only a few years into the fact that the United States for the first time had a negative trade deficit with the world in the early 1970s and as Jeremy mentioned, losing our first war.
- [07:57]
Rick Perlstein
The city of Saigon was renamed today. The victorious Communists who forced the city's surrender said the capital of South Vietnam henceforth will be known as Ho Chi Minh City.
- [08:08]
Jeffrey Engel
And also losing our first president to resignation.
- [08:11]
Rick Perlstein
I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.
- [08:15]
Jeffrey Engel
The stagflation of the period made it Remarkably difficult for people to conceive of things getting better.
- [08:21]
Rick Perlstein
There is only one point on which all advisers have agreed. We must whip inflation right now.
- [08:30]
Jeffrey Engel
Not to jump to the end of the story, but I've actually found, looking at 17, excuse me, looking at 1976 makes me feel better about today because we know that good things happened after 1976.
- [08:43]
Martin DeCaro
Well, it took a few more years for things to turn around. Another thing about the national mood and what a crazy year 1976 was. It was a presidential election year on top of everything else. Rick Perlstein's book here, the Invisible Bridge, in the opening pages, he mentioned that in 1975 there had been 89 bombings attributed to terrorism. That was in the United States. There was something called the Weather Underground. Jeremy, can you talk a little bit about the sense of violence? It seemed like it was much more violent then than it is today. And we have a major political violence problem now.
- [09:18]
Jeremy Suri
So the levels of violence in the United States certainly increased in the late 60s and early 70s. And what you had in 1975, 76, was kind of the after whiff of that. So in fact, it was less violent, certainly in cities than 1968 was in 1970. But what you had were a number of organizations that had been formed in the crucible of conflicts over civil rights, the Vietnam War, presidential power, and these groups on the right and the left, although small, were responsible for individual acts of terror that raised a lot of public fear. And the Weather Underground was a group on the left. Bernadine Dorn and Bill Ayers were two members of that group. In fact, their son has just written a memoir about growing up as the child of people from the Weather Underground. It's actually quite interesting, the memoir. You had right wing groups as well, and then you had international groups. This is really in the early 1970s, the beginnings of international terrorism as a real concern. A series of airplane hijackings and various other issues, some related to the Palestinian Israeli issue, some not. So what you had was not so much violence in a ubiquitous way. You had random violence in a way that led people to never feel safe, even though they were generally safe.
- [10:34]
Martin DeCaro
And also Jeffrey Engel, wasn't there a sense of shock in all this? I mean, nowadays we're used to lying, self dealing, corrupt politicians, but it was jarring. Then Vietnam and Watergate, they were shocks to the system.
- [10:49]
Jeffrey Engel
All the data is really quite consistent on this, that when we look at when the American public began to lose faith in the government, began to lose faith in institutions broadly, be it the church or education. It really all dates back to this period of the early to mid-1970s. You know, the idea that you would ask people in the 1940s and 50s, do you think that leaders are doing their best for the country? Overwhelmingly, people would say yes. By the mid-1970s, that number began to decline and has dropped like a rock, frankly, in the last few years, to the point where I have not checked lately. But I would be shocked if it's maybe even the double digits of people who think that the politicians and leaders are doing what's in the interest of the country as opposed to their own personal interest.
- [11:37]
Jeremy Suri
Well, I do think Jeff's entirely right. I mean, there was still a sense among many Americans who remembered the 1950s, who would come of age in the age of Eisenhower and Kennedy, that politicians, as much as you might disagree with them, that generally trying to do the right thing, particularly at the national level, I think there was more assumption about corruption at the local level. People living in Chicago were not startled to learn that Mayor Daley was, you know, feathering his own nest. But you expected national politicians to be on a different scale and operate with a different ethic from local politicians. But I think what was different about the 70s from today is you still had three networks of television, you still had a mainstream news. And so in spite of all the emergence of lying and negative advertising and all of these things that we see today, that had their origins then, there still was some standard fact based reporting that dominated the public discussion and you could trust in that. And so I think even as the trust in Nixon declines, the trust in people like Walter Cronkite, even Dan Rather, figures of that sort, that's significant and that's a, that has a leavening effect. I think the difference today is not only have we become more accustomed to lying and prevarication by politicians, as you said, Martin, but I think also there isn't a contrary voice out there to the same extent or it's not readily identifiable. That's not to say, by the way, that the network news and the Old Gray lady, the New York Times and the Washington Post, not that they were perfect, they had their own problems, but they operated under the older standard, the 1950 standard, longer than the politicians did.
- [13:16]
Martin DeCaro
Sure. And our cities were in bad shape too in the mid-1970s.
- [13:20]
Jeremy Suri
Absolutely. I mean, one of the real challenges cities were confronting, and this included cities like New York, Austin, Chicago, Los Angeles, deindustrialization had really kicked in. The story of deindustrialization is about a decade a Decade and a half old at this point already. But this is the point at which cities really begin to feel it. Companies have moved out of cities, people have moved to suburbs. That's a phenomenon that goes back to the 50s. But these have now snowballed on one another and cities have lost their tax base and they've lost their creative class. This was a time, it's hard to imagine today when cities are cool again. But people did not want to live in New York City. They did not want to live in Chicago. They moved to suburbs. And that really, that really harmed the cities. The cities were hollowed out. And the extreme example of this, of course, is I think it's 1977 or 78, when the Yankees are in the World Series and in the background, the Bronx is literally burning. And I think it's Howard Cosell who says the Bronx is burning.
- [14:16]
Rick Perlstein
News item, Keith.
- [14:17]
Martin DeCaro
I've just had word that that fire we've shown in the South Bronx. First the pitch, Waldorf. That fire in the South Bronx, fortunately, no lives in danger. It's an abandoned apartment building. And problem is to get the fire out, prevent it from spreading, of course.
- [14:36]
Jeremy Suri
But at least for real estate owners in the Bronx, there's been a lot of recent scholarship on this. It became more advantageous to burn their buildings and collect insurance than to try to actually get people to move in.
- [14:47]
Martin DeCaro
That's incredible. Well, my family moved out in New York City during this period. I was born in. I was born in Flushing, Flushing, Queens, when Gerald Ford was president. But I didn't get a chance to grow up there. You know, I don't know what that
- [15:01]
Jeffrey Engel
act, I have no idea what that just was, but whatever it was, sound
- [15:05]
Martin DeCaro
like the Godfather or something.
- [15:06]
Jeremy Suri
I thought it was like the Godfather in Queens.
- [15:10]
Martin DeCaro
He's the president today, so I want to share a book review. Just a short passage from a book review that was just in the New York Times a couple of days ago. The review was written by Richard Kreitner of a new book, America USA by Eddie Gloud. Or is it Glaude? He's a Princeton okay. He says by 1976. This is Kreitner writing the review. By 1976, when the nation marked its bicentennial, the violence of the 60s had destroyed any semblance of consensus, and Vietnam and Watergate had eroded trust in the government. The commission initially tasked with organizing the anniversary was disbanded amid reports of corruption. Corporations filled the vacuum, Glaudi explains, with star spangled whoopee cushions, patriotic toilet seats, Liberty hamburgers, Red, white and blue beer cans. Sounds very schlocky, doesn't it?
- [16:04]
Jeremy Suri
Like it or not, we are being
- [16:05]
Rick Perlstein
inundated with Bicentennial Products. In 1975, when you bought deodorant, it was deodorant. But this year it's bicentennial deodorant.
- [16:15]
Jeffrey Engel
I'm shocked, shocked corporations would try to make money off of cheap advertising moments.
- [16:22]
Martin DeCaro
Well, it doesn't sound like the American people were really into it at first. We'll get around to how they actually celebrated the big day on 7-4-17. Sorry, 1976. But leading up to this, I mean, again, there had been a commission created, just like there is one now many years before to prepare. Either one of you can take this on. It didn't sound like the American people were really into it.
- [16:41]
Jeffrey Engel
I'm not sure the American people are into it now either.
- [16:45]
Martin DeCaro
Stick with 1976 for now.
- [16:47]
Jeffrey Engel
My point being that we can kind of understand the 70s by thinking about what's going on today. You know, when's. When's the last time that you were walking down the street and someone turned to you and say, hey, what are you going to do for the 250th celebration? You know, the only way we hear about this is when. And this, there's nothing wrong with this, is when elites in the media or political leaders or university leaders remind us that this is something that's supposed to matter. I mean, we know about the birthdays in our own immediate family. We know about the anniversaries in our own immediate family. But frankly, I still have trouble with the idea that July 4, 1776, is a day that we start with. I think we should go back to 1775 and Lexington Concord. Personally, the point being, we shouldn't be surprised that people needed to be reminded to get excited about something. This is not a normal event that they look forward to all year. It's not Christmas, it's not New Year's, it's not even July 4th. Normally. Our sense of discomfort with asking what does this all mean? Is consistent, I think, across the different anniversary celebrations that we've seen for July 4th throughout American history.
- [17:48]
Jeremy Suri
Yeah, I have a theory on this that just builds on what Jeff said. I think actually Americans don't like these anniversaries. We never have, I think what Americans like to mark a Memorial Day type events, right D Day, when we are honoring relatives and forebears who died for a cause. So we're comfortable, comfortable with that. But we're so deeply anti monarchical still, thankfully that these kinds of anniversary celebrations, they feel like monarchy stuff. Right. Like Victoria's Diamond Jubilee. Right.
- [18:18]
Martin DeCaro
There's a rejection of monarchy.
- [18:19]
Jeremy Suri
Right, right. But it's not an anniversary in the sense of a birthday marking 50 years, 100. There's not a reign attached to it. It's just every year we just celebrate. Right. It's a day of celebration. It's not a day to mark and show reverence really. People don't stand up and read the Declaration of independence on July 4th. They don't. You know, maybe in the 19, I
- [18:38]
Jeffrey Engel
do, but occupational hazard, right.
- [18:40]
Jeremy Suri
We're not normal. We're not normal people. But I, I think it's hard for me to come up with any moment when the United States had one of these big anniversaries for the country and people were happy about it. And into it we again, we get into memorializing those who died. I think some of it is also just being a future oriented society. And so this just doesn't excite people.
- [19:02]
Jeffrey Engel
People have a hard time getting excited about celebrating things they had nothing to do with. At least when we talk about celebrating D Day for the three of us in our middle aged years, we remember people who could have possibly fought in D Day. That's not the case for our students today. What am I really celebrating by saying that the country has existed since 1776? I'm celebrating the accident of my birth, which, you know, I could do any day.
- [19:26]
Martin DeCaro
I actually do think this is an important holiday or an important anniversary. But before this, before this current period we're living in, I knew people across the political spectrum who looked forward to July 4, not because they were going to, you know, read the Declaration of Independence, but there was always a mix of patriotism in with just having a day off, going to see fireworks, celebrating our country again, even if you're not reading a history book about it, enjoying a day with family and friends, having a barbecue, et cetera. I do think this is really important though. It is about our history. And as long as we've been a country, we've never really had a unifying single historical narrative. And in addition to that, I've gotten a lot of unwanted unwanted reminders this is coming up. Matter of fact, I was woken up the other night by fireworks cuz I don't live far from the National Mall after the UFC cage matches at the White House. So we don't have Richard Nixon In 76, it was Gerald Ford who did not make it about himself. We have a president today who is making about himself And I think that's what's driving away some enthusiasm in our country.
- [20:30]
Jeremy Suri
Well, yes, of course, of course. But I don't think it's all Trump. And I think the historical record of how poorly received the support always been. You know, you can enjoy someone's birthday, you can enjoy your own birthday when you turn 50. Right? But you cannot be happy about turning 50. Those are two different things. Right? We enjoy the act of celebration. We enjoy having a day, multiple days for different kinds of celebrations. But we don't have to be happy about an anniversary. That makes us feel old. And I do think that's where the forward looking, youthful assumptions of Americans run against a kind of British imperial perspective, which is, wow, the Queen has been there 60 years. That's an accomplishment. Americans are like, well, we'll celebrate the person's birthday or we'll celebrate the country's birthday. But you know, 250 years, who cares? You know, there's a very Jewish way of looking at it, by the way, because all the Jewish holidays are about suffering. We celebrate and remember the suffering. We don't celebrate accomplishments because they just make us feel old.
- [21:25]
Martin DeCaro
Well, I know in 1826 there was a lot of anticipation because some of the founders were still around. There was doubt that the republic would ever last that long. So Jeremy, you mentioned the Jewish aspect of this. Speaking of that one, Benjamin Levine of Brooklyn. Oy. I'm citing Perlstein's book here, the Invisible Bridge, Rick Perlstein's book on page 254 in November of 1973, actually. So we're still three years away from the bicentennial. He expressed this. Benjamin Levine did expressed a common sentiment in a letter to the Chicago Tribune. It would be a sin and a shame if our president, meaning Nixon, were still presiding over the affairs of our great nation when we celebrate the 200th anniversary of this country on July 4, 1976. Same could be said. Now I do think it's a shame that we have a president like Donald Trump in office. How long was Nixon's shadow? I mean, he had been gone by almost two years by July of 76.
- [22:27]
Jeremy Suri
His shadow was alive and well at those celebrations because the man who replaced him was not elected to office.
- [22:33]
Rick Perlstein
My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over. Our Constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men.
- [22:47]
Jeremy Suri
And had pardoned him.
- [22:48]
Rick Perlstein
A full, free and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed.
- [23:03]
Jeremy Suri
I always remind students of this I'm sure Jeff does, too. That was a very controversial decision, and it remained controversial for quite a long time, certainly through 1976. And there were people who saw that as evidence of corruption, and there are people who still see that as evidence of corruption. And that's another parallel. We have a president now who's been
- [23:22]
Jeffrey Engel
pardoning people and people who continue. And I think there's it's unprovable, of course, but people who continue to believe that had Ford not pardoned Nixon, then he would have got one reelection.
- [23:32]
Martin DeCaro
Yeah. And that election again was just a few months away from the bicentennial. Pearlstein also cites one expert who is unnamed here on page 14. For the first time, Americans have had at least a partial loss in the fundamental belief in ourselves. We've always believed we were the new men, the new people, the new society, the last best hope on earth in Lincoln's terms. For the first time, we've really begun to doubt it.
- [23:57]
Jeffrey Engel
I'm tired of this narrative because we are feeling bad about ourselves in 2026, that we feel that we're in crisis and we find other people saying for the first time we don't feel good. The truth matter is every generation of Americans, you can find a large number, maybe a majority, certainly close to it, of people who say, boy, things were better in the past. I think that's just human nature. I think that we all struggle, as they did in 1826, to say, are we living up to our fathers and mothers? Are we living up to our the people who gave us this world? I, in 2026, like so many people, am very much concerned about our country and the direction that we're going. But I take great comfort, in fact, the fact that when I look at previous generations, they too were discomforted. Now, that doesn't mean that we're going to solve our problems just because they did. But it does give me hope to at least know that we are not unusual in thinking that we are in decline or wondering if we are in decline, worrying that we are inclined tap.
- [24:59]
Martin DeCaro
Subscribe now in the show Notes to skip ads, get early access and enjoy all of our bonus content or go to history as it happens dot com. All right, listen up. The only gift that any dad wants on Father's Day is Gold Belly. Gold Belly ships the most iconic foods from the best restaurants across the country straight to his door for free. Let him kick back and chow down on award winning barbecue from Texas. Epic deep dish pizza from Chicago or colossal pastrami sandwiches from New York. Make dad Feel like an absolute legend this Father's Day. And go to goldbelly.com to get 20% off your first order with promo code DAD. That's 20% off@goldbelly.com, code DADDY. There are problems similar between the two eras, but we also have problems that are of a different nature today. And, you know, in a relatively short podcast, we can't get into all of this. Jeremy Surrey, Another potential parallel here, the fight over the past, the meaning of the American Revolution. So there was this official bicentennial commission that was put together for the bicentennial, and then there was something called the People's Bicentennial Commission, which was a group of Marxists and young socialists.
- [26:22]
Jeremy Suri
Yeah. I mean, and in a sense, there's nothing more American than that. Back to what we were talking about before. I mean, the notion of having an official anniversary celebration sounds very monarchical to me. What sounds more pluralistic, what sounds more Thomas Jefferson, James Madison to me, is a decentralized lowercase F federalist system where different groups and I think this would be more fun, actually more different groups are promoting their version of what this should be. And as I know, I only know a little bit about the people's Commission in 1976. I think that was their argument. It's depicted by some as a trashing of America. That's not at all what they were arguing. They were arguing their voices that are not being told and heard. And it shouldn't be just the story of white guys in powdered wigs. It should be the story of other people as well. And I think that would be interesting today. I mean, to me, the story of immigration should be at the center of the way, I think, of the 250th anniversary.
- [27:16]
Martin DeCaro
Yeah. The People's Bicentennial Commission showed up at a an event where the boat that was involved in the Tea Party was on display, and they did a protest against corrupt transnational capitalists like Richard Nixon's favorite itt, whose Boston building, the protesters pointed out, had served as staging ground for the official commemoration, again citing Pearlstein. Jeremy, let me just follow up with you and I'll hear from Jeffrey as well. Were there history wars? We've gone through history wars in recent times is going on right now with the way the 250 is being distorted by the Trump folks.
- [27:50]
Jeremy Suri
Yeah, I think the history wars of 1976, that era were not just public, they were within the historical profession. I mean, this is really the rise of social history. This is the rise of what will be 20 to 30 years of unceasing attack on traditional political, diplomatic, military history. Not everyone was part of that. And it wasn't one side or the other. That's a false accounting of it. But there were people who, for political and methodological reasons, felt that the profession should not tell the story of presidents as much as it's telling that story, and tell the story more of factory workers in Lowell, Massachusetts, and things and the story of slavery. And that was an internal debate, which, of course, then was connected to the public debate. And the public debate then was a similar one. There were those who believed, who were civil rights activists and others and wanted that story highlighted. And then there were those who were believers in America's righteous role in the world world, and wanted to emphasize that these are not mutually exclusive. But in these public debates, they often become so. Today is weirder because of the presence of Trump and. What is a. How do we put it, Entirely unpersuasive and largely factless depiction that the Trump administration is putting forward. It makes the history wars less about different ways of understanding history, really. Do you want to do real history or not real history?
- [29:10]
Martin DeCaro
Yeah, like erasing. Erasing references to slavery in public displays, things like that. Jeremy.
- [29:16]
Jeffrey Engel
I think that's really a key distinction with what's going on today that is different, that in previous generations, we had people arguing over what type of American history we should be discussing. I think there's a subtle difference embedded within the revanchism of the Trump administration and their 250th anniversary celebrations, wherein any discussion of anything with a negative valence whatsoever is termed not just criticism, but unpatriotic, un American, even to the point of discussing things that the 21st century make us uncomfortable. Now, as professional historians, we're sort of trained to talk about things that make us uncomfortable without actually questioning whether or not they happened. So I can tell you about Indian removal. I can tell you about Japanese American incarceration. I can go on and on. I can discuss that something happened without debating its morality. And I think now we're getting into a place where even mentioning something other than the loudest celebration and yelling from the top of our lungs, jingoism, jingoism. That even suggesting that we should have that conversation is being cast as unpatriotic by the current administration. We also saw this, in some ways, I think, in the battles in the late 80s and early 90s over the commemorations of World War II. Remember the difficulty that the Smithsonian had in putting on the Enola Gay? Their discussion actually wound up Having no discussion whatsoever was the only solution that they basically just put the plane there and walked away. Because no interpretation you could write would make everyone happy. That is when people were still alive, who remembered the Enoage and who remembered Hiroshima, both the dropping and the receiving of that bomb. There's no one around in 1776 who can tell us really what slavery was like using the word I. There's no one who can tell us what the revolution was like using the word I. And I think that makes a big difference in how we want to hold up the past as being something that is heroic and wonderful. We want our fathers to all be great. Just a logic pervasive today that wasn't there in 76, that even having a discussion is itself unpatriotic.
- [31:21]
Martin DeCaro
Well, there's another thing here too, Jeremy Surrey. Those who just want to trumpet an idealized, jingoistic, heroic version of the past. And then there's others, many on the left, who just give up on American history altogether. The whole thing is a stinking, rotting ship and we shouldn't be celebrating the birthday of a slaveholders republic. I think that's equally terrible. You know, some of that was around in 76. Maybe you can address Pearlstein's thesis here. The idea that the seeds were being sown for a conservative cultural upsurge and personified by one Ronald Reagan, who almost won the nomination in 76.
- [32:00]
Rick Perlstein
In this election season, the White House is telling us a solid economic recovery is taking place. It claims a slight drop in unemployment. It says that prices and aren't going up as fast, but they are still going up. And that the stock market has shown some gains. But in fact things seem just about as they were back in the 1972 election year. Remember, we were also coming out of a recession then. Inflation had been running at around 6%, unemployment about 7. Remember too, the upsurge and the optimism lasted through the election year and into 1973 and then the roof rebellion.
- [32:35]
Jeremy Suri
I think what's really being seeded here is less a conservative revolution, it's more a cracking up of what had been a kind of Cold War consensus. And I think, you know, the, the Cold War consensus breaks down before the Cold War breaks down, in a sense. And maybe it's one of the reasons that the Cold War breaks down. And I think that's what we're seeing through the 1950s and 60s. There was a real rally around the flag effect that the Cold War had at home and abroad. A new generation that hadn't lived through World War II and that had a different set of ideals and looked different in the United States generation that graduated college in the 60s, the baby boomers, they. They saw the world differently. And. And I think that's really what's going on. And then conservatives captured some element of that, just as the left captured some element of that, and it went in different directions. And some of. Some of the left version of this, you know, did go into the world of education and academics, and some of the right version, you know, went into the world of evangelism and things of that sort. And so that those are the different worlds we populate today.
- [33:34]
Martin DeCaro
So speaking of Reagan, he referred to that people's Bicentennial commission. He said it was a bunch of people who were fostering an effort to prove the American Revolution was in reality a kissing cousin to Marxism and Leninism. But all that we've been discussing here, despite all of that, Perlstein says bicentennial observations were becoming ubiquitous. That unexpected, balmy spring of 1976. There was a freedom train rolling through berg after berg with its display cases of American revolutionary artifacts and technological marvels. There was also a freedom wagon train that covered 20 miles a day, stopping each night in a different bicentennial town. There were bicentennial flags, bicentennial quarters, and each night on CBS television, a bicentennial minute. There was also just a lot of genuine patriotism, too. I guess in the final analysis, people did celebrate the bicentennial, as schlocky as it may have been. It sounded like people needed a break from.
- [34:36]
Jeffrey Engel
But I wonder in that if people are celebrating the bicentennial so much as they are celebrating the idea that they, too, can be Americans. And I raise this point because I'm looking at this zoom. I realize that this is an audio medium, but I'm looking at our zoom. And I'm recognizing that none of the people on this conference call, on this zoom, on this podcast, have relatives that go back to 1776 in the United States. Mine didn't come here until the turn of the century from Eastern Europe, I presume. Yours come from Italy, and Jeremy's come from South Asia and from Eastern Europe as well. And yet, here we are. The three of us are perfectly comfortable using the term we. This is what we think as Americans. This is what we celebrate as Americans. And I think as the day draws closer, people will remember that. Even if you're going to talk about slaveholders with powdered wigs, those of us who are not slaveholders or powdered wig holders can still celebrate that they achieve something that was subsequently invited, that we were subsequently invited into, and that we subsequently had a role with Jeremy.
- [35:32]
Martin DeCaro
Do you want to address how folks in 76 eventually did come around to celebrating?
- [35:38]
Jeremy Suri
Well, I think people like to celebrate.
- [35:39]
Martin DeCaro
First of all, things are nice. You know, I don't. I don't know where Engel got the idea that I came. My family came from Italy. Assistant.
- [35:46]
Jeremy Suri
Where is his voice?
- [35:47]
Jeffrey Engel
I gotta say, this voice is painful.
- [35:49]
Martin DeCaro
I mean, my God, I don't know where he got that idea. My last name is Dicaro. Oh, wait, that is Italian. Sorry.
- [35:55]
Jeremy Suri
I remember, Gosh, I was three years old, right? I remember the tall shit ships. You know, there was cool stuff. There was cool stuff. They had all these tall ships on the east river and the Hudson river
- [36:06]
Rick Perlstein
and 212 sailing vessels all gathering in New York harbor for operation sale, paying homage to 200 years of America's freedom.
- [36:15]
Jeremy Suri
First of all, a celebration is a celebration. And secondly, as. As Jeff said so eloquently, I mean, it draws you in. The, the power of the American idea is intoxicating sometimes. And that's a good thing, right? And so that draws people in. But I don't think we should. Should disguise that for some consensus view of patriotism and pretend that what happened in 1976 naturally took us to Reagan's evil empire speech in 1983 and. And all of that. A lot happened in between. It didn't have to go that way. These celebrations tell us more about our society than they tell us about our long term development. They tell us about the moment that they're in, not about what happens next.
- [36:52]
Jeffrey Engel
Well, when I think back on 76, I have the distinct memory of two things. First, we all put streamers in the spokes of our bicycles or our. In my case, I guess those three probably tricycle. And second, I distinctly remember the 4th of July party that our town had. There were unlimited ice cream sandwiches. Oh my gosh, talk about the bounty of America. I say it's not really that tongue embedded too far in the cheek that people, to Jeremy's point, do want to find something to celebrate and to take out of this when given the opportunity to do so. It's just. I'm not sure that we're quite there yet.
- [37:29]
Martin DeCaro
No, I don't sense a lot of excitement here in Washington. And I think it's directly related to who happens to be in the White House at the moment. But also the national mood right now is not great.
- [37:41]
Jeremy Suri
I do think people want to celebrate. Martin. I think, I think, and I think I'M going to bring the Knicks in here. Right. I think what you've been seeing in New York City.
- [37:47]
Martin DeCaro
Yes.
- [37:48]
Jeremy Suri
Is that right? And it's not about Mamdani. If Mamdani organized it, it wouldn't have the same. There'd be some people excited. But it's not Trump, it's not Mandani. It's something different that all New Yorkers, whether they were basketball fans or not, can somehow connect to. And the strange thing is different from when the Yankees win, it's a little harder to hate the Knicks if you're outside, you still can, but it's a little. It's a little harder. And I think that's what we're looking for. A UFC fight is not going to do that.
- [38:13]
Jeffrey Engel
It's not as hard to hate the Knicks as you think. But importantly, you know, let's. I mean, to that point, this may actually be shaped in some ways by how the US World cup team does.
- [38:23]
Jeremy Suri
Yeah, totally. Totally.
- [38:24]
Martin DeCaro
Well, let's end on a historical note here. We talked about the Declaration of Independence. I do think people should read it or reread it. You don't have to read the whole thing, but it's not a very long document. I've gotten into the habit of looking at Frederick Douglass's 1852 speech. What does the Fourth of July mean to the slave? Maybe I'm getting that terminology a little mixed up there, but it's a amazing speech he gives about the promise of America and how America is not living up to its promise because it has not gotten rid of slavery. A nation founded on the premise of fundamental human equality, even if that's not what Jefferson meant at the time, that is what the words say, and that is what people immediately started to take away from that Quok Walker and Mumbet, a couple of enslaved African Americans citing those words, sue successfully for their freedom with the help of white attorneys. As Jeffrey said before, yes, my family's immigrants from Italy and Sicily, and I visited the Tenement Museum in New York City, and I got very emotional there, knowing that my people had been living in a place like that and they weren't always welcome everywhere. We know that our country's had a very ambivalent. To put it mildly. To put it mildly. Thank you, Jeffrey. Relationship with immigrants. I guess what I'm saying is people shouldn't give up on the history either. Those words, all men are created equal, has inspired progressive social movements ever since they were written by Jefferson's pen, and not just in this country.
- [39:52]
Jeffrey Engel
Well, I would. I would Just change what you said by one letter. Actually, I think what we celebrate about the Declaration is not the premise that all men are created equal. It's the promise that all men are created equal and that we can create a society to prove that. I think of that phrase as the closest thing that we have to a national motto.
- [40:12]
Martin DeCaro
Yeah, it's an aspirational thing.
- [40:13]
Jeffrey Engel
Well, that's the point, is that. And I think that that's where the cultural wars get into conflict. Once you say it's an aspirational thing, then you have to ask, well, what can we do better? So if you're coming from this perspective saying any criticism of America is by definition unpatriotic, you're no longer fulfilling the national credo. To fulfill the national credo, you have to ask, how can we improve? Which suggests we're not perfect. Perfect. This very week, teaching here at SMU, a seminar for K12 teachers, 100 teachers from around the country are here to spend an entire week studying the Declaration of Independence. And let me tell you, it warms the patriotic cockles of my soul every day to see them walking in to discuss this. Especially when you see these people from around the country who are quite different people, and yet they're all coming to celebrate this. And also, as Abraham Lincoln would say, all it takes to be an American. He was very clear about this. All it takes to be an American is to hear we hold these truths, to be self evident and to think we. That we are part of the we. Which is not a universally accepted idea today, I should point out.
- [41:14]
Jeremy Suri
No, no, not at all. Not at all. And never has been. But. But it, you know, it waxes and wanes in its degree of acceptability. I agree with all of this. I would just add to it in one way. When we are revering the Declaration, as we should, and when we're stuck studying it, we're treating it as a. An inspiration, as a provocation that has meaning, that evolves over time. It's not a set of tablets. It's not the Ten Commandments. And I say this because I think it has been bastardized by those who appear to be celebrating it, but they're actually using it to celebrate some static view of our country. The power of those words that Jeff referred to, right, is that those words evolve with the time. When Jefferson spoke of equality in the 18th century, even in its most capacious elements, he couldn't think of the things we would put under equality today and those that our grandchildren will when they think of it. So it seems to me, what's fundamental is not treating it as some biblical text that we argue over every comma, but instead as a set of ideas that evolve over time that we are truthful to as we think about their evolution in the meaning over time. And I think that that is a historical way of thinking about ideas. They're not skyscrapers made of stone. They are actually evolving plastic within our minds and in our time. The power of Jefferson is that's everlasting in that way.
- [42:37]
Rick Perlstein
Furthermore, they declared that governments are instituted among men to secure their rights and to serve their purposes, and governments continue only so long as they have the consent of the governed.
- [42:54]
Martin DeCaro
On the next episode of History as it happens, we're sticking with America 250. Sean Wilentz returns to the podcast to discuss Anti Slavery and the American Revolution. That is next. And make sure to sign up for my free newsletter. Just go to substat and search for History as it happens.
- [43:18]
Jeffrey Engel
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