History As It Happens — Bonus Episode: Free Speech in America

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Robert (Bob) Korn-Revere, Chief Counsel, FIRE
Release Date: September 24, 2025

Overview

This bonus episode dives deep into the state of free speech in America, exploring both its legal protections and its fragile status as a cultural value. Martin Di Caro and Bob Korn-Revere (First Amendment litigator and FIRE’s chief counsel) examine recent events—including the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel’s show amid a new political controversy—to illustrate the growing challenges to free expression from both political sides. The conversation covers government overreach, the pitfalls of “hate speech” regulation, campus speech climates, and the broader importance of preserving a culture of open debate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current Crisis in Free Speech (00:00–03:13)

• Recent Controversy:

  • Jimmy Kimmel is criticized for his comments on the murder of Charlie Kirk and is suspended by ABC after FCC Chairman Brendan Carr, now appointed by Trump, issues veiled threats against the network.
  • Both liberal and conservative figures are accused of using censorship to benefit their own causes, despite previous claims to value free expression.
  • Trump administration vows to defend free speech while pursuing government actions against critical media.

• Legal and Cultural Value:

  • Free speech, protected by the First Amendment, is also a deeply held cultural value that is currently “under attack on college campuses and on late-night television.” (A, 00:10)
  • The “fight against so-called misinformation and disinformation” led both the Trump and Biden administrations into murky territory, often at the expense of open debate.

Notable Quotes:

“After complaining for years that liberals and leftists...invented cancel culture to go after conservatives...the Trump administration is now going after speech it doesn’t like...”
— Martin Di Caro [00:34]

“There’s free speech and then there’s hate speech. And there is no place...in our society.”
— Attorney General Pam Bondi [01:55]

2. Chilling Effects, Cancel Culture, and College Campuses (03:13–05:46)

• Greg Lukianoff’s Warnings:

  • The notion of “hate speech” is so broad it often facilitates censorship of opinions across the spectrum.
  • Even government efforts to target misinformation risk stifling legitimate debate (“the suggestion that COVID originated in a Wuhan lab...now considered plausible by many institutions”).

• State of Campus Speech:

  • Alarming findings from FIRE’s college survey: 166 of 257 schools received an “F” for speech climate, and one-third of students show some acceptance of violence to stop campus speakers.

• Blurring the Lines:

  • Distinguishing between criticism of bad ideas and “cancel culture” remains a pressing challenge.
  • Recent instances include a bookstore canceling an event due to the author’s statements on Israel.

Notable Quotes:

“The censorship you support today will be used against you at some point in the future.”
— Martin Di Caro, paraphrasing Lukianoff [07:37]

3. Bob Korn-Revere on the Law and Culture of Free Expression (05:46–08:33)

• Legal Protections:
  • The First Amendment remains robust, setting a constitutional “floor” for free speech. Governmental threats or punitive regulation are unconstitutional, regardless of partisan motivation.
  • The legal foundation, however, is only part of the equation; the “spirit of liberty” must be alive in the public mindset, echoing Learned Hand’s 1943 speech.
• Cultural Attitudes:
  • Societal willingness to tolerate disagreement is vital. If we lose this, “no law, no constitution can save it.” (G, 06:23)

Notable Quotes:

“The spirit of liberty lives in the minds and hearts of men and women, and if it dies there, no law, no Constitution can save it.”
— Bob Korn-Revere (quoting Learned Hand) [06:23]

“You see that kind of shift depending on who’s in power all the time. And it really doesn’t matter which administration is in power...Either one is violating the Constitution if they’re threatening to use their power to silence somebody’s speech.”
— Bob Korn-Revere [08:14]

4. Words as Violence: Dangerous Metaphors (08:33–09:58)

• Debunking “Words Are Violence”:

  • Both host and guest reject the growing rhetoric equating speech with violence, calling it “false and truly destructive.”
  • Suppression tactics (e.g., silencing campus protesters over Israel/Gaza) inevitably get turned back on those who supported such measures.

• Consequences of Equating Speech with Harm:

  • If people start to “use violence to stop words,” the foundational sense of liberty and free debate is at risk.

Notable Quotes:

“That metaphor of trying to say that words are violence is both false and truly destructive...the assassination of Charlie Kirk very graphically demonstrates they are not the same thing.”
— Bob Korn-Revere [09:24]

5. FCC Overreach and the First Amendment (10:01–11:44)

• Carr’s Threats Were Unconstitutional:
  • Korn-Revere directly asserts that FCC Chairman Brendan Carr violated the First Amendment by threatening ABC, pointing to recent Supreme Court precedent (NRA v. Volo) and longstanding doctrine.
  • The FCC’s regulatory power is deliberately narrow, and explicitly denied the authority to censor speech under Section 326 of the Communications Act (1934).

Notable Quotes:

“Government actors can’t threaten adverse regulatory action or promise favorable regulatory action in order to change the speech that’s out there...”
— Bob Korn-Revere [10:12]

6. When Can the FCC Intervene? (11:44–12:25)

• Narrow Allowances:
  • The FCC is mostly limited to technical regulation (frequency use), not content. Only a handful of limited exceptions (e.g. hoaxes that induce public panic) exist, but these are rare and strictly interpreted.

Memorable Moments

• The irony and hypocrisy of each side weaponizing “free speech” to silence opponents.
• Korn-Revere’s clarification that legal protections are vital but not sufficient, underscoring the need for a culture embracing open discourse.
• Warning that supporting censorship today risks having it deployed against you tomorrow—no matter your politics.
• Direct legal breakdown of why official threats from government regulators (FCC) almost always violate the First Amendment.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:48: Introduction and setting up the Kimmel/ABC controversy
• 01:48–03:13: Political responses and growing calls for censorship
• 03:13–05:46: Lukianoff on “hate speech” and campus free speech crisis
• 05:46–08:33: Bob Korn-Revere on the law, cultural climate, and shifting standards
• 08:33–09:58: The fallacy and risk of framing words as violence
• 10:01–11:44: Legal analysis of FCC actions—clear violation of the First Amendment
• 11:44–12:25: FCC’s actual, limited content authority

Conclusion

This episode offers an urgent, multi-perspective reflection on the principles and perils of free speech in America. It’s a call to recognize that the health of open discourse rests not just on robust legal protections, but on a widely shared spirit of liberty. Both major parties' shifting stances on censorship, campus controversies, and the cultural conflation of speech and violence all illustrate the fragile state—and vital importance—of defending free expression without partisan blinders.