Everyday Watergate

Summary

---

History As It Happens: "Everyday Watergate"

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Ken Hughes (Presidential Recording Program, Miller Center, UVA)
Date: June 9, 2026

---

Brief Overview

This episode dives into the enduring relevance of the Watergate scandal, illuminating what the past can teach us about the present, particularly the normalization of presidential corruption. Host Martin Di Caro is joined by Ken Hughes, renowned expert on the Nixon tapes, to unpack Watergate’s historical details and connect them to contemporary concerns — specifically, the parallels with Donald Trump's presidency, recent normalization of corruption, and the declining will of political and institutional actors to uphold the checks and balances integral to the American constitutional system.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Watergate as Constitutional Crisis (01:40–06:24)

• Martin De Caro sets the stage with clips and analysis: Nixon’s crimes were the nightmare the framers feared—a rogue, despotic executive. However, the system held, leading to Nixon’s forced resignation.
• Watergate became synonymous with abuse of power, obstruction, and corruption; it exemplified why the U.S. Constitution is designed for checks and balances.

Quotes:

"Richard Nixon once personified the fear of our founders of a rogue executive, corrupt and despotic. But the system held against the crimes of Watergate and Nixon was forced to resign." — Martin De Caro (01:40)

2. Historical Parallels: Nixon vs. Trump (02:05–06:24; 38:08–51:41)

• De Caro observes that today's corruption under Trump is happening openly, but institutional guardrails (Congress, DOJ) are failing to respond as they did during Watergate.
• Review of recent Trump-era headlines: stock trades, immunity from audits, lucrative federal contracts—suggesting the normalization of behavior that, if not illegal, is "at least highly unethical."
• Hughes points to the risk of normalization: investigative journalists are working, but without Congressional or DOJ action, the distinction between LEGAL and illegal collapses.

Quotes:

"Today, Donald Trump's corruption is still staggering and happening in broad daylight. The people who are in charge of upholding the system are failing." — Martin De Caro (01:52)

“If some of this is not strictly illegal, it is at least highly unethical. All this self-dealing... it’s hard to say for sure what is legal or not because no one is really investigating.” — Martin De Caro (05:40)

3. Context & Origins of Watergate (08:00–13:59)

• Ken Hughes outlines the political climate of 1972: Vietnam War turmoil, Nixon’s manipulation of U.S. withdrawal for political gain, secret “decent interval” deals with Hanoi, Beijing, and Moscow.
• Watergate’s root: Nixon’s paranoia and desire for reelection, leading to surveillance, wiretapping, and “plumbers”—his own secret force to stop leaks and gather intelligence.

Quote:

“Nixon kept a few layers of insulation between him and the criminal wrongdoing. Sometimes he gave very specific instructions and they are on tape.” — Ken Hughes (13:59)

4. Nixon’s Use of "Cutouts" and Secret Orders (13:28–16:42)

• Nixon sought plausible deniability, using intermediaries ("cutouts") between himself and illegal acts.
• Example: Nixon orders a break-in at the Brookings Institution, seeking evidence of his own sabotage of Vietnam peace talks.

Quotes:

“I want it implemented on a thievery basis. God damn it. Get in and get those files, blow the safe and get it.” — Nixon on tape (14:58, cited by Kissinger)

5. Watergate’s Early Days: Public & Political Reaction (21:42–26:19)

• Initial coverage was strong, public disapproval of lawbreaking clear—but many still believed Nixon’s denials.
• The initial investigation and cover-up succeed, as checks on Nixon’s personal involvement were weak and the White House successfully diverted the FBI.

Quote:

“When Nixon denied it, people believed him... At the time, people tended to believe the President.” — Martin De Caro (26:19)

6. Expanding the Scandal: Cover-up & Federal Abuse (27:18–29:14)

• Nixon tried to weaponize federal agencies (IRS, DOJ) against political enemies and media (e.g., Washington Post).
• The slush fund revelations and the "enemies list" are key elements brought to light.

Quote:

“That is pure authoritarianism. That is using the government as a weapon against your political opponents.” — Ken Hughes (28:10)

7. The Senate Watergate Committee & Public Revelations (37:19–41:16)

• Massive public engagement: 51 days of televised hearings.
• Alexander Butterfield’s revelation (39:11) about Oval Office taping system was central.
• Bipartisanship: Both Republicans and Democrats supported investigation, viewing checks on executive power as a constitutional obligation.

Quotes:

"It was just astonishing to have that much airtime devoted to public affairs and seeing how much of public affairs was both unethical and, or illegal." — Ken Hughes (37:56)

"Republicans sided with Democrats on that principle. As the framers of the Constitution intended..." — Ken Hughes (40:41)

8. Republican and Institutional Responses (41:16–45:19)

• Some Republicans defended Nixon, but enough prioritized country over party to push for accountability—especially when their own political futures were threatened by association.
• This contrasts starkly with present-day partisan paralysis.

Quotes:

“We can see in his defenders the origins of our current gross predicament with regards to an out-of-control and corrupt executive.” — Ken Hughes (41:18)

9. The Saturday Night Massacre & Downfall (43:31–47:34)

• Nixon’s attempts to obstruct justice by firing Special Prosecutor Cox triggered resignations in DOJ and outcry in Congress and public.
• Release of the “smoking gun” tape (45:19–46:21) proved Nixon’s involvement and led to loss of remaining support.

Quote:

“The smoking gun tape made it clear that he abused the CIA for political reasons... to shield his own criminal activities.” — Ken Hughes (45:49)

10. Watergate’s Legacy vs. Today’s Politics (49:27–59:56)

• Comparison to present: Barry Goldwater’s principled stand forced Nixon out; today’s GOP leadership hasn’t crossed that line with Trump.
• Watergate proved the system can work, but only if institutional integrity and bipartisanship are maintained.
• Hughes and De Caro highlight the dangers of normalization of corruption and partisan impunity, calling for a renewal of accountability and a “new politics.”

Quotes:

"If Mitch McConnell had taken a principled stand... that would have given a constitutional resolution to this attempt to overturn an election." — Ken Hughes (49:32)

“We need to restore, to recover the genius of the American constitutional system, which is to hold people in power accountable, to make sure that the government is the servant of the people and not the servant of the ruling class.” — Ken Hughes (59:01)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There's a cancer growing on the presidency and if the cancer was not removed, the President himself would be killed by it." — White House counsel John Dean, describing the urgency of confronting the Watergate scandal (01:15, 60:13)
• "What did the President know and when did he know it?" — Framing question about presidential culpability (01:08, 60:51)
• "America needs a full-time president and a full-time Congress... I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow." — Nixon’s resignation speech (03:10)
• "Monarchs are not accountable and presidents must be. Otherwise, we have betrayed our own heritage." — Ken Hughes (60:06)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:40–06:24 — Framing Watergate as a crisis of corruption and constitutional accountability
• 08:42–13:59 — Setting up the political and geopolitical context of Watergate
• 13:59–16:42 — Nixon’s methods: cutouts, secret police, and illegal orders
• 21:42–26:19 — Immediate reactions to the break-in and the public’s trust in Nixon
• 27:18–29:14 — Federal agencies weaponized; campaign finance abuses
• 37:19–41:16 — Senate Watergate Committee, Butterfield’s tape revelation, and the rise of bipartisanship
• 43:31–47:34 — Saturday Night Massacre and the chain of events leading to Nixon’s resignation
• 49:27–51:41 — Historical comparison: principled stands (e.g., Goldwater vs. McConnell)
• 51:41–59:56 — The normalization of corruption in today’s politics; search for accountability

---

Conclusion: Lessons and Warnings

“Everyday Watergate” draws a direct, chilling line from the 1970s to today, showing how institutional vigilance and public outrage once stopped a president—and warning that if we accept corruption as routine, we risk surrendering what the Founders intended: a government accountable to the people, not a new form of monarchy. Both Hughes and De Caro urge listeners not to be cynical or complacent: history demonstrates that accountability, though fragile, can prevail if enough citizens and leaders insist on it.

---

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] the this week at

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

Safeway and Albertsons 6 to 16 ounce selected varieties of strawberries, raspberries or blackberries are $1.99 each limit three member price with coupon and extra. Meaty pork back ribs or St. Louis style spare ribs bone in previously frozen are $2.99 per pound limit four member price with coupon plus medium avocados, colored bell peppers or English cucumbers sold by the each or tomatoes on the vine or sweet onions sold by the pound are $0.99 member price. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and ways

[Martin DeCaro]

to save History as it happens June 9, 2026 everyday watergate what did the

[Richard Nixon]

President know and when did he know it?

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate breakout.

[Unknown Historian or Narrator]

There was a cancer growing on the presidency and if the cancer was not removed, the President himself would be killed by it.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

Well, I'm not a crook. At first the police found nothing. Then they spied five men crouching behind

[SoFi Advertiser]

some DES is impeachable if he attempts

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

to subvert the Constitution. Butterfield are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?

[Richard Nixon (Resignation Speech)]

I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.

[Martin DeCaro]

Richard Nixon once personified the fear of our founders of a rogue executive, corrupt and despotic. But the system held against the crimes of Watergate and Nixon was forced to resign.

[Ken Hughes]

Today.

[Martin DeCaro]

Donald Trump's corruption is still staggering and happening in broad daylight. The system or the people who are in charge of upholding the system are failing. That's next as we report history as it happens. I'm Martin DeCaro.

[Ken Hughes]

Usually public corruption happens in secret.

[Martin DeCaro]

These were people that were weaponized and

[Ken Hughes]

really treated brutally by a system that was so corrupt with corrupt people running it.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

There's never been a president in the history of our country that would have ever even tried this. This is so outrageous.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Now on to reports of apparently rampant grift inside the Trump White House latent

[Martin DeCaro]

efforts to profit off crypto virtual currency while serving as president overseeing regulations and enforcement of that industry.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

More than 3,000 stock trades in just the first three months of this year, a combined value of up to 750 million.

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

So why is it that you are allowing President Trump to have complete immunity from being audited?

[Martin DeCaro]

I am unable to comment. America's long national nightmare mercifully ended in August 1974, more than two years after his henchmen were caught breaking into the DNC offices at the Watergate President Richard Nixon finally resigned.

[Richard Nixon (Resignation Speech)]

To leave office before my term is completed is abhorrent to every instinct in my body. But as president, I must put the interests of America first. America needs a full time president and a full time Congress, particularly at this time, with problems we face at home and abroad. To continue to fight through the months ahead for my personal vindication would almost totally absorb the time and attention of both the president and the Congress in a period when our entire focus should be on the great issues of peace abroad and prosperity without inflation at home. Therefore, I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow. Vice President Ford will be sworn in as president at that hour in this

[Martin DeCaro]

office and ever since, Watergate's been synonymous with presidential corruption, abuse of power, obstruction of justice. Nixon exemplified the fear of the American founders of a rogue despot putting himself before the country. Which is why our Constitution was built on a system of checks and balances, on the separation of powers, on the rejection of monarchy. So where is that today? Here are a few recent headlines. President Trump defended his $1.8 billion anti weaponization fund and urged congressional leaders to approve the controversial settlement between him and the irs. And as part of that settlement, Trump and his family will be immune from IRS audits. Headline number two A group of lawmakers demanded answers from the White house following a ProPublica investigation revealing that a top aide to the president intervened to secure a $620 million Pentagon loan to a startup linked to the president's eldest son. Headline number three the computer company Dell inks a $9.7 billion Pentagon contract after Trump acquires stock. And here's part of a story from the national review. In autumn 2024, when it became clear that he'd likely win back the White House in about six weeks, Donald Trump and his friend Steve Witkoff founded a crypto business called World Liberty Financial. It was and remains an ideal vehicle for leveraging political power in search of financial gain. Again, these are just a fraction of the news articles you can find online right now about the way President Trump and his family have prioritized enriching themselves while the President abuses the Justice Department to punish his enemies. If some of this is not strictly illegal, it is at least highly unethical. All this self dealing with. It's hard to say for sure what is legal or not because no one is really investigating. Well, I shouldn't say no one. Investigative journalists are looking into these matters, but not the Republican controlled Congress for the most part, and not the doj, which the President has turned into his personal law firm. Is corruption becoming normalized? If so, so much for the lessons of Watergate.

[Richard Nixon]

Is there such an awesome responsibility for a multitude of problems and undertakings of this nation that the presidency in some instances must be spared the detail, must be spared the difficulty of situations which in more ordinary circumstances might be considered by some, at least to be frank, open declarations of criminal offense. Is the presidency to be protected in that way? Is the splendor of the isolation so great that the President must be protected? And if so, in what cases?

[Unknown Historian or Narrator]

It is my opinion and my concern with respect to this particular presidency that he should not have been involved in connection with these matters.

[Martin DeCaro]

Bob Woodward of Watergate fame has called Ken Hughes one of America's foremost experts on secret presidential recordings. Hughes has spent two decades mining the secret White House tapes for the Miller center at the University of Virginia, and he is the author of Chasing the Nixon Tapes, the Chenault Affair and the Origins of Watergate and Fatal Politics, the Nixon Tapes, the Vietnam War and the Casualties of Reelection. I've read both those books. They are excellent. Ken Hughes, welcome back to the show.

[Ken Hughes]

Thank you, Martin DeCaro, for inviting me

[Martin DeCaro]

and I love having you on because you are the master of the White House tapes.

[Ken Hughes]

You are too kind.

[Martin DeCaro]

I will dig up some audio for this one. There's always a very rich. And it's an audio component.

[Ken Hughes]

Yes.

[Martin DeCaro]

So everyone knows that the Watergate scandal begins the morning of June 17, 1972. Several burglars arrested at the DNC offices at the Watergate complex. Although that was not the first break in, they were going back there because they screwed up the first time they broke into the DNC offices. But before we get to the chronology of what happens after this and how it was investigated and you know, the enduring lessons of Watergate versus the appalling, outright broad daylight corruption we're witnessing today under Trump. Before we get to all that, tell us a little bit about the political climate in the country in the summer of 72 and to what extent that climate produces Watergate.

[Ken Hughes]

The climate in 1972 was in some ways even more tumultuous than it is today, entirely thanks to the Vietnam War. But Nixon is the political master of the situation. He has been planning his political and military and diplomatic exit from Vietnam throughout almost his entire first term. He is timing American withdrawal to his re election schedule so it will climax around the time Americans go to the polls and he can reap the benefits of having ended the war. And behind the scenes, he is negotiating a decent interval dealing with, with the Communists, not only in Hanoi, but in Beijing and Moscow, so that in public they will be agreeing to peace while secretly, Nixon and his National Security advisor, later Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, have assured the Communists that if they just wait a decent interval after Nixon brings the troops home a year or two, that they can take over South Vietnam without any fear that Nixon will re. Intervene militarily.

[Martin DeCaro]

I recently played that tape on a, on a podcast. You Hear Kissinger saying, Mr. President, in a year or two, Vietnam will be a backwater and no one will give a damn.

[Ken Hughes]

Exactly.

[Henry Kissinger]

So we've got to find some formula that holds the thing together a year or two after which, after a year, Mr. President, Vietnam will be a backwater. If we settle at St. Louis October, by January 74, no one will give it to him.

[Ken Hughes]

So Nixon, he still is not a person without worries when he finds out that the Watergate break in has taken place and crucially learns that the organizers of the break in are E. Howard Hunt, a former CIA agent, and G. Gordon Liddy, a former FBI agent. Nixon realizes that he is now in grave danger because these two men, Hunt and Liddy, were hired by the White House a year earlier for the Plumbers, the special secret investigations unit that Nixon set up without informing Congress, without getting congressional approval or authorization or funding.

[Martin DeCaro]

His own secret police force.

[Ken Hughes]

Yes, his own secret police force and coordinating secret committee to use the investigative powers of the federal government against select Democrats and other political figures that he considers his enemies because they might pose a threat to him politically.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, the Plumbers, because they stop leaks, right?

[Ken Hughes]

That's right.

[Martin DeCaro]

So you're saying Nixon had his worries, right? I mean, we know now that he won by a historic landslide, but he's, he's thinking about the election. Isn't that really the origin of Watergate? It's Nixon's concerns about the election, yes.

[Ken Hughes]

In, in the broadest sense. In 1971, Nixon told his chief of staff, H.R. haldeman, that he wanted surveillance to be part of his reelection campaign. Tailing people, wiretapping, not necessarily using the federal government for those things. When he discusses this on tape, he's very vague, but he wants Haldeman to make sure that he's got every source of political intelligence going into 1972 without giving, you know, specific instructions, such as they want you to bug Democratic National Committee headquarters. Nixon is morally responsible for the web of corruption that we call Watergate. But he is a very cagey lawyer, a very, very, very smart politician, probably the smartest and most influential Cold War politician. And there is fierce competition for. For that rank that includes a lot of very smart, very influential people. And he. He keeps his fingers off most of the specific details of the corrupt and illegal activities that are being done in his name.

[Martin DeCaro]

You anticipated my next question, Ken, because today Donald Trump talks about this stuff out in the open, although I'm sure there's stuff that's happening behind the scenes we're not aware of yet. Historians might write about that one day. I was going to ask you, Nixon's relationship with the plumbers. Did he ever meet with them personally and deliver orders, or is just an understanding. Nixon told his hatchet men, okay, this is what I want you to do generally. And then those guys conveyed the directions to the plumbers. Was that it?

[Ken Hughes]

Nixon used cutouts. Nixon kept a few layers of insulation between him and the criminal wrongdoing. Sometimes he gave very specific instructions and they are on tape. Did order on multiple occasions, a break in at the Brookings Institution Washington think tank that had some former Democrats from the Johnson administration working there. Nixon thought that they had all the intelligence on his own. Sabotage of the Vietnam peace talks.

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

Right.

[Ken Hughes]

On the eve of the 1968 election. The Chenault affair, which we have discussed before.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yes. That break in never happened. But you can hear Nixon on tape clearly saying, I want it done on a thievery basis. Because Kissinger says to him, Mr. President, if you need something at the Brookings Institution, why wouldn't you just go, you know, knock on their door and ask for it?

[Henry Kissinger]

But couldn't we go over now, Brookings has no right to. To have. I. I mean, I want it implemented on a thievery basis. God damn it. Get in and get those files. Blow safe and get it.

[Martin DeCaro]

No, I want it done on a fevery basis. Go ahead.

[Ken Hughes]

Yes, and this is an order Nixon gave on more than one occasion. He was very serious about it. And when, you know what he did to sabotage Vietnam peace Talks before the 1968 presidential election, you can understand why he was so scared that there was some sort of evidence of his violation of the Logan Act, a felony undermining peace talks for political reasons, that he was willing to go to extreme lengths in order to obtain every record that might or might not exist of the evidence of his interference. And as it turns out, the CIA had a bug in the President of South Vietnam's office. The NSA was intercepting all the communications between the South Vietnamese Embassy in Washington and saigon. And the FBI, ultimately, under LBJ's orders, had a wiretap on the South Vietnamese Embassy phone. There still was no direct evidence against Nixon because Nixon used cutouts. He used Anna Chenault, a very prominent Republican fundraiser in 1968, one of the rare female fundraisers in America in the 1960s. An extremely rare Asian American who is high up in American politics.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, those wiretaps you just referred to were done by the lbj, Department of Justice, or the LBJ investigators trying to find out who is leaking the information about what we're trying to accomplish here at the bombing halt. And there is a great phone call as Johnson recorded his phone calls. And the phone calls are the easiest audio files to understand because they're speaking directly into the phone speaker where LBJ confronts Nixon about this.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

Yes, we'd gone out and talked to all of our allied countries and they tentatively agreed. Now, since that time with our campaign going on here, we have had some minor problems develop. First, there have been some speeches that we ought to withdraw troops or that we should stop the bombing without obtaining anything in return. Or some of our folks, even including some of the old China lobby, are going around and implying to some of the folks that they might get a better deal out of somebody that was not involved in this. Now, that's made it difficult on me, and it slowed things down some. I know that none of you candidates are responsible for it because I'm looking at what you said to me when we talked last October 15th.

[Ken Hughes]

LBJ had enough information to strongly suspect that Nixon was behind this sabotage of the peace talks, but not enough information evidence to convict that information. That evidence did come out eventually in John Aloysius Farrell's great Nixon biography that came out shortly before Trump took office in 2017, in which HR Haldeman's notes make it clear that Nixon was trying to sabotage the peace talks in one way that we hadn't known before. He wanted the South Vietnamese President, Nguyen Van Thieu, to publicly demand that The north meet LBJ's three demands, two of which were military. One was that the north respected the demilitarized zone between the north and the South. Another was that it stopped shelling civilians in the south. And the third was that it sit down and talk with the South Vietnamese in Paris and discuss peace negotiations. And that would have completely sabotaged the peace deal because the only way that the north would agree to it was if it didn't have to publicly admit it, because it had already publicly demanded an unconditional bombing hall. So there is Nixon putting his political well being, his his election in 1968 over the lives of American soldiers, over the chance for peace talks at all.

[Martin DeCaro]

And they were a long ways away from reaching a final agreement. But the point is very true. Nixon tried to do this, that he even tried it at all. In your book on this Chasing Shadows, if I dare say is the best book I've ever read about the topic of the Chenault affair. I'll put a link to that book in the Show Notes here. Tap subscribe now in the Show Notes to skip ads, get early access and enjoy all of our bonus content or go to mystery as it happens.com.

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

This week at Safeway and Albertsons 6 to 16 ounce selected varieties of strawberries, raspberries or blackberries are $1.99 each. Limit three member price with coupon and extra meaty pork back ribs or St. Louis style spare ribs bone in previously frozen are $2.99 per pound. Limit four member price with coupon plus medium avocados, colored bell peppers or English cucumber sold by the each or tomatoes on the vine or sweet onions sold by the pound are $0.99 member price. Visit Safeway or Albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible, overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing. A SoFi personal loan. With it you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stunt to learn more. Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 came as fast as I could.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

It's been too long.

[Disney/Pixar Toy Story Advertiser]

Cowboy from Disney and Pixar. So that's Lily Pad.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

What are you, some sort of old man toy?

[Henry Kissinger]

What?

[SoFi Advertiser]

She thinks you're old because you're bald.

[Disney/Pixar Toy Story Advertiser]

Woody on June Toys are for play. Tech is for everything. Toy Story is back.

[Ken Hughes]

I want to talk to you. Device the long Toy Turner Walter, I responded.

[SoFi Advertiser]

I have plastic fingers.

[Disney/Pixar Toy Story Advertiser]

Featuring Taylor Swift's All New Song. I knew it. I knew you available now.

[SoFi Advertiser]

No way oh, yeah.

[Disney/Pixar Toy Story Advertiser]

Disney and Pixar's Toy Story 5. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested only in theaters June 19. Tickets available now.

[Martin DeCaro]

Okay. Watergate. I mentioned it was on June 17, 1972, a few months before the 72 election, that Nixon would win in a landslide. June 17, 1972. The story breaks.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

Five people have been arrested and charged with breaking into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in the middle of the night. The burglars forced a stairwell door, then taped its latch open.

[Ken Hughes]

Most of the offices, including that of Chairman Lawrence o', Brien, have been checked for electronic bugs and none has been found. One of the suspects, James McCord, operates his own security company in Washington.

[Ryan Reynolds]

He was doing work for the Republican

[Ken Hughes]

National Committee and the Committee to Reelect President Nixon.

[Martin DeCaro]

Nixon holds a news conference in August in which he swears the White House staff was not involved in the break in. Not the White House staff.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

Mr. Nixon made these points. He admits that overzealous workers in his own re Election Committee may have been involved in the Watergate bugging. Gaper. And for the first time, the President admitted that the White House has investigated on its own. And he says that it found no one now employed by his administration to have been involved in any way.

[Martin DeCaro]

The seven burglars or five burglars and two conspirators may be getting the numbers off a little bit here. Are indicted on charges related to the. To the break in. Five plead guilty to avoid trial at the urging of Nixon's aids. You know, we don't want a messy trial because information might come out. Two others go to trial, they're convicted. January 1973. So we're six months since the break in. Where's this all going at this point? Are Americans reacting to the story? Is the political class reacting to the story? This affair does take two years. Give us the breakdown on these first six months. Ken.

[Ken Hughes]

Initially, the Watergate break in was a huge story covered by network television and all the major newspapers because it was such a strange thing. The big question was why would Republicans be bugging the Democratic National Committee headquarters when really there was not much information to be gleaned from there. They took polls at the time and most Americans considered it a very big deal. They considered it very wrong for operatives for one party. And it was clear that Liddy was working for the Committee to Reelect the President and that this was arranged. This break in was organized for political reasons, partisan political reasons. And most Americans, of course, strongly disapproved of politicians breaking the law in order to get elected at the Same time, there was initially no evidence that Nixon had anything to do with the break in. And I still don't think there is enough evidence. If I sat on the grand jury and they presented to me all the evidence that Richard Nixon knew about the Watergate break in in advance, I would not indict. He was morally responsible for telling his aides he wants us all kinds of intelligence and he doesn't care if they break the law to get it. So he is morally responsible for the Watergate break in because he generally called for that sort of thing. But he doesn't seem to have had any specific knowledge of the break in or given any specific authorization of it.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break in. I neither took part in nor knew about any of the subsequent cover up activities.

[Ken Hughes]

And so the initial investigation by the FBI does get the people who actually pulled off the break in. And the initial cover up by the Nixon White House is successful in steering the FBI away from investigating the aspects of Watergate that threatened Nixon. In other words, they don't delve into like such basic questions as how did Hunt and Liddy meet? They met because they were both hired to work on the plumbers and they both planned Brookings break in that was never authorized by the White House because the budget was too high, would have cost about a million dollars to do. And they worked on other criminal activities like gathering information for the Nixon White House to leak. Nixon wanted to use grand jury information, which you're not allowed to leak, and information from the Justice Department's investigations, which again, it is just improper for a President to leak.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah. A major part of this early story of Watergate is that when Nixon denied it, people believed him. When we look back on it now, how can anyone believe Richard Nixon? But at the time, people tended to believe the President. If you were to go on television and say, I had nothing to do with this, a third rate burglary by a bunch of scoundrels, basically how they discussed it. But now we know that just a few days after the break in, Nixon arranged to provide hundreds of thousands of dollars in hush money to the burglars. And then he had the CIA try to impede the FBI's investigation of the crime. We all know, of course, that's illegal. The CIA is not allowed to do any domestic investigations, and especially not on behalf of the sitting President who's being investigated by that same FBI. The point here, Ken, is, you know, the, the burglary still looms large in public memory. There are so many Other aspects to Watergate, the COVID up of the burglary that involved, as I mentioned, hush money to the burglars. But there are other things that Nixon was doing at this point too, wasn't he?

[Ken Hughes]

Nixon was behind the scenes trying to use the federal government as a weapon against his enemies, really against anybody who was a political threat to him. He tried to use the IRS to get the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Larry o', Brien, indicted and possibly jailed during the campaign. We can hear Nixon telling his Chief of Staff, H.R. haldeman and his chief domestic advisor, John Ehrlichman, to use the IRS against Larry o' Brien and other big donors to the Democratic Party.

[Henry Kissinger]

Every one of those batches is out. I think the whole bunch goes out just because of this. It's certainly a great move. It'll be a marvelous, you know, really, when you come down to it. So they say we have got any spirit, you'll kick the right ass out of it.

[Ken Hughes]

That is pure authoritarianism. That is using the government as a weapon against your political opponents. That came out eventually. I don't want to get ahead of us in the Watergate hearings. And there was also, you know, his use of the investigative powers of the federal government to get dirt on Democrats that he considered threats to him. And to use that to, to affect

[Martin DeCaro]

the election, threaten the media as well. Right. Was an echo of that today, threatening

[Ken Hughes]

the television licenses of the Washington Post.

[Martin DeCaro]

Where have I heard that recently?

[Ken Hughes]

Yes, because the Post treated Watergate not like a flash in the pan story, but set two brilliant investigative reporters, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, to work the investigation of Watergate as full time jobs. And that was. That was unique among major news organizations in 1972. Yeah, that's part of the reason that those names are so legendary to this day.

[Martin DeCaro]

Other journalists were poo pooing their reporting. Woodward and Bernstein were right. And one of the first big stories they broke had to do with Nixon using money as a slush fund. Right. Campaign money that did come out shortly before the election.

[Ken Hughes]

Campaign funds were being used for unethical activities.

[Martin DeCaro]

Well, in the movie all the President's Men, that, that's a big part of the storyline. They trace the origins of a check.

[Ken Hughes]

Yeah, Carl Bernstein on line one.

[Henry Kissinger]

One. Yep.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

Mercy, I think I got a lead on dope.

[Ken Hughes]

I just, I got it right. I just talked to him. I just hung up from him. Bernstein, listen, it goes all the way to Stans.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

What are you talking about?

[Ken Hughes]

It goes all the way to Stans.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

He gave the check to Stans for

[Ken Hughes]

The Committee to Re Elect.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

Did he say that?

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

He said it.

[Richard Nixon (Resignation Speech)]

I've got it on my notes.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

Jesus.

[Ken Hughes]

It's down on record, Bernstein.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

That money winds up in the back car. The Watergate Burger. Yes, Fantastic. I'm coming home.

[Ken Hughes]

Okay.

[Martin DeCaro]

1973 unfolds and Nixon looks like he's in great shape. He's got his phony piece, but he can call it a piece with honor of Vietnam. He just won a historic landslide over McGovern. He's got a whole second term awaiting him. But Watergate is not going away. I mean, those initial convictions are. January of 73, John Dean begins testifying before a secretly impaneled grand jury. March of 1973. We'll get to the Senate Watergate hearings. That happened a few months later in a bit. But let's pick it up here. Then in 1973, what happens is the

[Ken Hughes]

investigation does start to reach the White House. James McCord starts, I think, implicating both John Dean, Nixon's White House counsel, and Jeb Stuart Magruder, who worked for the Committee to Reelect the President. But Dean is the key figure at this point because he was involved with the COVID up from its earliest days. He was the coordinator for the White House. When he is implicated, he is legally exposed to prosecution. So he starts telling the prosecutors some of what he knows about Haldeman and Ehrlichman and that brings Watergate into the Oval Office. Since Haldeman and Ehrlichman are the people Nixon describes as his right and left arm. So if they're involved, it means that Nixon is almost certainly involved. And the almost certainly is important because for much of the next year the question will be, is John Dean telling the truth? And John Dean turned out to have an incredibly sharp memory, give incredibly accurate testimony to the Senate Watergate Committee about the wide range of corruption in which the Nixon White House was involved. Dean brought to light the enemy's list.

[Unknown Historian or Narrator]

There was also maintained what was called an enemies list, which is rather extensive and continually being updated.

[Ken Hughes]

The use of the resources of the federal government to, in his immortal words, screw our enemies.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, I have Rick Pearlstein's book here, the Invisible Bridge. He says, by April 30, 1973, Richard Nixon had no choice but to say something about Watergate. Six Republican senators said they would not run for reelection unless he did. New outrages compounded daily. John Mitchell, who had been the Attorney General of the United States, is now working on, or had worked on the Committee to re elect the President, also known as Creepy Mitchell, contradicted his own previous sworn testimony. Deputy campaign manager Jeb Stuart Magruder told investigators he'd passed transcripts from DNC phone bugs to the Oval Office Chief of Staff Bob Haldeman and domestic affairs counselor John Ehrlichman. The President's two closest advisors had hired criminal representation. Perlstein goes on to say Pat Gray resigned from the FBI after the shocking admission that he had mishandled Watergate evidence from the safe of E. Howard Hunt, which ended up in an FBI burn bag containers in which sensitive materials were destroyed. The evidence allegedly included forged cables meant to frame JFK for the assassination of South Vietnam's Ngo Dinh Diem. Also a spy dossier on Ted Kennedy and a memo on Hunt's meetings of a lobbyist linked to bribes paid to Nixon by international telephone and telegraph reporters unearthed the new private treasury of $600,000 to finance dirty tricks like the thousands of copies of the Washington Post the White House bought, then shredded to fake votes. In a poll on whether or not the President was doing the right thing in Vietnam, Nixon gives a speech in April. End of April 1973.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

Last June 17, while I was in Florida trying to get a few days rest after my visit to Moscow, I first learned from news reports of the Watergate break in. I was appalled at this senseless illegal action, and I was shocked to learn that employees of the Re Election Committee were apparently among those guilty. I immediately ordered an investigation by appropriate government authorities. On September 15, as you will recall, indictments were brought against seven defendants in the case. As the investigations went forward, I repeatedly asked those conducting the investigation whether there was any reason to believe that members of my administration were in any way involved. I received repeated assurance, assurances that there were none. Because of these continuing reassurances, because I believed the reports I was getting because I had faith in the persons from whom I was getting them, I discounted the stories in the press that appeared to implicate members of my administration or other officials of the campaign committee.

[Martin DeCaro]

The people give them the benefit of the doubt again, right?

[Ken Hughes]

They do to a certain extent. His approval rating has more or less collapsed. He started out 1973 with a 68% approval rating with his fake peace in Vietnam. And by June or July of 1973, thanks to the Watergate hearings, his approval rating is down to like 44%.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, it drops below 50% for the very first time. Even before the imminent coverage of the Senate Watergate hearings begins on May 17,

[Ken Hughes]

his approval is slipping because there is clearly a lot of wrongdoing taking place beneath him. What becomes the main question, Will Nixon have to resign? Is not yet that central focus. Since the investigation has not yet reached Nixon. We now know that he secretly promised his aides H.R. haldeman and John Ehrlichman pardons for everything before they testified before the Senate Watergate Committee. Where have I heard that when they. When they committed perjury, which they were eventually indicted for, they thought that they had impunity to do so because the President would have their back. He would give them pardons rather than see his right and left arm go to prison. That, of course, as we know, is not how it worked out in the end.

[Martin DeCaro]

You know what's amazing about what happens next? You get the Senate Watergate Committee hearings beginning on May 17, 1973. They go on through November of 1973, and then the following year, the House holds impeachment hearings. But there were 51 days of broadcasts during that window, May to November 1973. 51 days where Americans, instead of seeing their daytime soap operas, were tuning into television to watch these hearings. You get some amazing revelations. The taping system, the enemies list that we've discussed with Jonathan Dean.

[Ken Hughes]

It was just astonishing to have that much airtime devoted to public affairs and seeing how much of public affairs was both unethical and. Or illegal.

[Martin DeCaro]

And here's the connection. We can start making some connections to what's going on or not going on. Now, what really strikes me from going over all this to prepare for our talk is how there was a bipartisan outrage, bipartisan demand for answers and investigations. Can you talk about how the political class and the country at large continued to respond as more and more information comes out about what was happening in the Watergate scandal? And as Nixon has to devote more and more of his time to fighting the disclosure of information, really, it's the tapes. He spends much of 73 trying to prevent the tapes from coming out.

[Ken Hughes]

Yes. Once Alexander Butterfield, a White House aide, revealed that Nixon was secretly tape recording his Oval Office conversations and other conversations that took place in the White House, the question hanging over everything was whether Congress and the courts would get their hands on those tapes as evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

Mr. Butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President?

[Richard Nixon]

I was aware of listening devices, yes, sir.

[Richard Nixon (Statements)]

When were those devices. Devices placed in the Oval Office?

[Richard Nixon]

Approximately the summer of 1970.

[Ken Hughes]

This set up a very basic constitutional contest conflict between Nixon, who was claiming that he should have sole control over his tapes and that it would hopelessly damage the presidency. And if Congress or the courts got those tapes, the courts and even the Republicans in Congress insisting that in matters of impeachment there was no executive privilege, that under the Constitution, Congress sets the rules for impeachment. It holds the President accountable. And Republicans sided with Democrats on that principle. As the framers of the Constitution intended, they wanted Congress to jealously defend its rights from an overreaching executive. The framers of the Constitution feared a corrupt or power mad, reckless executive acting with impunity. So the impeachment proceedings were set up, established in the Constitution, in order to ensure the executive could not repeat the despotism the colonies had revolted against. So top Republicans in the House insisted that Nixon turn over his tapes and threatened him, said, if you don't turn over those tapes, it will be the basis for an article of impeachment against you. And when articles of impeachment were eventually voted on in the summer of 74, Republicans did side with Democrats. Not all Republicans.

[Martin DeCaro]

Nixon had his defenders, of course.

[Ken Hughes]

Yes, Nixon had his defenders. And we can see in his defenders the origins of our current gross predicament with regards to an out of control and corrupt executive. Because some Republicans just sided with the President. And they did so for political reasons that we can see now throughout the Watergate investigations. While Democrats and independents turned against Nixon on the basis of the evidence that came out during the hearings, both in the Senate Watergate Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, the majority of Republicans, Nixon's base took a view that we would find familiar today. They claimed that Nixon was the victim of a criminal conspiracy by liberals and Democrats in the news media against Nixon because he was a Republican, one of the more conservative political figures to be elected since Herbert Hoover. Though of course, by current standards he would be a moderate.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yes, Ronald Reagan was one of Nixon's more vocal supporters during the washing fiasco. So, yeah, I don't want to idealize the past, but there were enough Republicans in Congress and there was of course a grand jury that was impaneled. And there was a news media, unlike today's media ecosystem on both sides of the aisle, outright partisan, dishonest. No matter what our side does, it's right. News outlets out there in those days, I think people would mostly, not entirely, as you just said, but people would read the Washington Post and believe, or at least take seriously what they read and not dismiss it immediately. So Watergate still takes. Until the following August of 1974. We were just talking about the hearings in 73, the following August of 1974 to come to a close. We don't have time to go over all the aspects of it here, Ken, but why did it take so long to be resolved?

[Ken Hughes]

In part because the wheels of justice do move slowly. And with regard to a President, they do have to move very deliberately. We have to make sure that the system is, to the greatest extent possible, free of political corruption.

[Martin DeCaro]

Due process is important and Nick. And of course, obstructed. He fired.

[Ken Hughes]

The Saturday Night Massacre.

[News Announcer]

In breathtaking succession tonight, the following historic events occurred. The President of the United States demanded that the Attorney General fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, who was supervising the bringing to justice of all persons involved in the Watergate case and related crimes. The Attorney General, Elliot Richardson, refused and resigned. The President then ordered the Assistant Attorney General, the deputy to Elliot Richardson, William Ruckelshaus, to fire the special prosecutor. Ruckelshaus refused. The President immediately fired Ruckelshaus. Solicitor General Robert Bork quickly was named Acting Attorney General. Bork was ordered to fire Special Prosecutor Cox. He did.

[Ken Hughes]

A lot of Republicans did stand up for basic constitutional and legal principles at the same time. All the Republicans in the House of Representatives had to face a re election campaign because 1974 was a congressional election year. And before the summer. The primary threat to their political survival came from within Nixon's base. They feared primary challenges and they very much minimized evidence like the cancer on the presidency tape. The discussion between Nixon and John Dean about hush money, which to my ears very plainly put Nixon on the side of paying it to keep the Watergate criminals quiet and to keep them from testifying accurately about other abuses of power and criminal activities they had engaged in on behalf of the Nixon White House.

[Martin DeCaro]

And the final unraveling for his rogue presidency comes when he is forced by the Supreme Court to release the tapes and the smoking gun tape once and for all show that he had been lying all along about the COVID up.

[Henry Kissinger]

What the hell did Mitchell know about this thing? I think so. I thought that he knew the details that I think he did. Who is the that did this? Is it Liddy? Is that the phone? He must be a little nuts. Yeah.

[Ken Hughes]

The smoking gun tape made it clear that he abused this CIA for political reasons. To get the CIA to tell the FBI that the FBI had to contain its investigation because otherwise it would expose national security secrets.

[Henry Kissinger]

I'll cover a lot of that scam as well.

[Lyndon B. Johnson]

A lot of things.

[Henry Kissinger]

And we just feel that this would be very detrimental to have this thing going further. This involves incubators and a lot of kinky panky that we have gotten to

[Ken Hughes]

do with ourselves and that just was not true. The reason that Nixon wanted to obstruct the investigation was to protect himself, to shield his own criminal activities such as the creation of the plumbers to commit crimes for him as well as it's not illegal task of plugging leaks. And this comes out in August of 1974. So most of the primaries are behind Republicans. They're facing devastating losses in the 1974 congressional campaigns. They're afraid of that. And so staunch Republicans like Barry Goldwater, who was the Republican nominee for president in 64 and had Nixon's back through Vietnam, and other conservative Republicans in the House and the Senate tell Nixon that if he doesn't resign he is very likely to be impeached. He will be tried by the Senate and the Republicans cannot guarantee that he will get the 1/3 of the Senate votes he needs to remain in office. So Nixon makes the political calculation that he'll be better off if he resigns than if he stays and fights Tap

[Martin DeCaro]

subscribe now in the Show Notes to skip ads, get early access and enjoy all of our bonus content or go to historyasithappens.com.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

When it's time to scale your business. It's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

this week at safeway. And Albertsons. Six to 16 ounce selected varieties of strawberries, raspberries or blackberries are $1.99 each each limit three member price with coupon and extra meaty pork back ribs or St. Louis style spare ribs. Bone in previously frozen are $2.99 per pound limit four member price with coupon plus medium avocados, colored bell peppers or English cucumbers sold by the each or tomatoes on the vine or sweet onions sold by the pound are $0.99 member price. Visit Safeway or Albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save high interest.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi Personal lo could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more that's s o f I.com P-O-W-E r loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

[Martin DeCaro]

Barry Goldwater did what Mitch McConnell did not do, right?

[Ken Hughes]

If Mitch McConnell had taken a principled stand and other Republicans had taken a principled stand in 2021 for the January 6th illegal activities that President Trump then encouraged, the insurrection, the insurrection that would have given a constitutional resolution to this attempt to overturn an election and thereby overthrow American democracy.

[Martin DeCaro]

Nixon's popularity, as you mentioned, you know, nosedived during the Watergate saga. But from my reading of the public opinion polls, on the question of whether he should be kicked out of office, that was still hovering a little bit higher, maybe around 50, 50, until the smoking gun tape. Then it was impossible to defend the man anymore. And public opinion went way down on that one, too, because there was no way to turn on the TV in those days and hear a commentator say, you know what? That smoking gun tape is fake news. He actually didn't say that.

[Ken Hughes]

Right? Or it didn't matter, or there was no Supreme Court decision saying that because it comes under the President's exercise of his powers, and certainly the President does have the power to direct to the CIA, then whatever the President did was legal. We didn't have that kind of widespread impunity for presidential wrongdoing that currently exists, thanks to the Republican majority on the Supreme Court and the current Republican majority in Congress.

[Martin DeCaro]

The message from Watergate, corruption happens, but it can't be normalized and the President can't do whatever he wants. So we'll transition now, Ken Hughes, to what's happening now. Even though Donald Trump's job approval rating is, what, around 38, 40%? Something like that. He's been a very unpopular president. Historically low, astonishingly, policies are unpopular. Everyone can see the corruption happening before our very eyes. I just get the sense that something about all of this is being normalized in a way that it wasn't because of how Watergate was resolved.

[Ken Hughes]

I agree entirely. In Watergate, the system just barely worked, thanks to heroic activities on the part of journalists like Woodward and Bernstein and the Washington Post for keeping the story under investigation when other news media outlets were moving away from it. Though other news media outlets did do some important work, too, within Congress. Even after Nixon was overwhelmingly reelected and overwhelmingly popular, thanks in part to his corrupt abuse of power both domestically and in foreign policy, particularly in the Vietnam War, politicians did continue to investigate those politicians included Republicans in the House and the Senate, and Republican judges like John Sirica, who resisted the temptations that a president can give because of his ability to reward friends and punish enemies and maintained their integrity through a process that threatened it. And the ultimate resolution, which did depend in part on Congressional Republicans fear of losing the 1974 congressional elections by just too big a margin so that their their party would be crippled, did ultimately curtail the abuses of power of a single president, Richard Nixon, and lay the groundwork for reforms that passed over the next four years with both the Republican president Gerald Ford, and the Democratic president Jimmy Carter, with Democratic majorities in both the House and the Senate.

[Martin DeCaro]

So today I wonder what would it really take to for enough people in Congress? Because forget about the Department of Justice, they're never going to investigate Trump. I'm wondering what it will take Congress. Well, maybe if there are enough Democrats win in November. I'm nonpartisan, I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. But I'm just wondering what it would take to deal with what we're seeing here. The stock trading saying buy shares of this company or boost this company and then the company will get a contract right after that. The enriching. I'm talking about Trump enriching himself and his family. There's so much that's happened. I shared an article with you before our conversation written by Mona Charon on Substack about all the corruption. It's almost impossible to keep track of

[Ken Hughes]

what it will take. Is the corruption actually hurting Trump's supporters. And we're seeing some of that reaction in response to our self inflicted foreign policy wound in Iran which has raised gas prices in an act of foreign policy self destruction that is probably without parallel in our history. And we're seeing some of it also with the political reaction against the $1.8 billion slush fund which Trump's government agreed to set up for Trump to give to people who broke the law for Trump on January 6th. If enough of Trump's supporters see the connection between his corruption and their pain economically, that will lead Republicans to withdraw their support of him just for their own survival within their party. We cannot count on the Republican Party electing people with enough integrity to hold Trump accountable because enough of the congressional seats in the Senate are held by people from red states that only have to worry about being primaried by somebody who's a bigger Trump supporter or from gerrymandered congressional districts where they're basically just hatchery fish who are in this protective habitat where they only have to worry about being defeated in primary challenges by people who are Trump supporters, because the energy in the party is behind Trump. Until that changes, America is in great danger of losing what our ancestors fought for and preserved for 250 years. So we always have the opportunity to make America a more perfect union. We always have the opportunity to fulfill the, what we call the ideals, but I think of as the principles of the founders, which are to hold people in power accountable. That is the genius of our system. We can hold the government accountable and make it our servant, and that is what makes us free. And we can't ever give up on that, even though, as we are seeing right now, it is often in grave danger.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, because this is what I'm afraid of going forward. If there's a Democrat president who conducts himself in this way that Democratic members of Congress won't want to do anything about it. Well, we know that a future Republican president conducts himself like Trump. This current generation, current crop of Republican lawmakers isn't going to do anything about it because they're not doing anything about it now. So I spend a lot of time on my show, Ken, talking about Trump's policies, foreign policy, immigration. But in my view, his priorities in his second term is to make money and to punish his opponents. And that's not what the president's supposed to be doing. He should be impeached and convicted. Should have been already. Sorry to be so preachy here.

[Ken Hughes]

There's nothing to be sorry about. He should have been impeached and convicted. And in his second term, he has given Congress more than enough grounds to impeach and convict him again. But I think there's always reason to continue to struggle for what is right. There's no reason ever to quit. The lessons of history do not counsel defeatism, even when people have the deck stacked against them in a thousand ways. Like African Americans during the 1950s, during the last gasps of Jim Crow, when it looked more or less invulnerable, they were able from a position of great disadvantage to secure their rights. We're nowhere near that badly off today, though. You know, the recent decisions on the Voting Rights act have undone a lot of the great legislation that earlier courageous and principled generations of political activists and workers and politicians even were able to achieve.

[Martin DeCaro]

Yeah, well, we need a new politics and we need a new doj has to be rebuilt to investigate all this self dealing once Trump is out of there. But we need a new politics. As I mentioned before, it can't be only that when the other party is in power. I'll be willing to investigate it, but when my guy's in office, I won't do it. That's not the legacy of Watergate.

[Ken Hughes]

That is not the legacy of Watergate. And it is. It is kind of the legacy of a lot of the worst developments in 21st century American politics. The lack of accountability for our foreign policy establishment regarding the Iraq War. The lack of accountability for our foreign policy establishment regarding the attempt to build a nation in Afghanistan. Utterly futile effort that collapsed around our ears when Trump negotiated an exit and Biden administered or what Trump negotiated. The lack of accountability for the corruption that led to the Great Recession. We need to restore, to recover the genius of the American constitutional system, which is to hold people in power accountable, to make sure that the government is the servant of the people and not the servant of the ruling class.

[Martin DeCaro]

America250 that's a great message to end on. Of all the things the American Revolution accomplished and stood for, one was the rejection of monarchy.

[Ken Hughes]

Monarchs are not accountable and presidents must be. Otherwise we have betrayed our own heritage.

[Unknown Historian or Narrator]

What I had hoped to do in this conversation was to have the President tell me we had to end the matter now. Accordingly, I gave considerable thought to how I would present this situation to the President and try to make as dramatic a presentation as I could to tell him how serious I thought the situation was that the COVID up Continue. I began by telling the President that there was a cancer growing on the presidency and if the cancer was not removed, the President himself would be killed by it. I also told him that it was important that this cancer be removed immediately because it was growing more deadly every day.

[Richard Nixon]

The central question at this point is simply put, what did the President know and when did he know it?

[Martin DeCaro]

On the next episode of History As It Happens, It's June. That means it's time for our next D Day episode. Have you seen the new movie Pressure with Brendan Fraser playing Dwight Eisenhower? It's about the meteorologist who saved D Day, James Stagg. Historian William Hitchcock will join us to talk about the movie and D Day again. That is next as we report History as it Happens. Make sure to sign up for my free newsletter. Just go to Substack and search for the name of this podcast.

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

This week at Safeway and Albertsons. Six to 16 ounce selected varieties of strawberries, raspberries or blackberries are $1.99 each. Limit to limit three member price with coupon and extra meaty pork back ribs or St. Louis style spare ribs bone in, previously frozen are $2.99 per pound limit four member price with coupon plus medium avocados, colored bell peppers or English cucumbers sold by the each or tomatoes on the vine or sweet onions sold by the pound are $0.99 member price. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and ways to save.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible, overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing a SOFI personal loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stunt to learn more loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.