History As It Happens — "The Truth at Nuremberg"

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Alex Whiting (International Law Expert, Harvard Law School)
Date: February 13, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode examines the enduring legacy and the contemporary relevance of the Nuremberg Trials, landmark proceedings that established the prosecution of crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity in the aftermath of World War II. Host Martin Di Caro is joined by international law expert Alex Whiting to discuss the historical import of the Nuremberg Trials, their depiction in the recent film "Nuremberg," and the challenges international law faces today as atrocities continue globally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context and Significance of the Nuremberg Trials

• The First of Its Kind:
  The Nuremberg Trials were the first international criminal tribunal to apply international rules of war, prosecute crimes against humanity, and address aggression as a crime (02:44; 20:26).

  "Nuremberg is an incredible accomplishment because it is the first time that an international criminal tribunal applies international rules of war, crimes against humanity, aggression to a conflict. And it is a triumph of law over war."
  — Alex Whiting (02:44)

• Foundation for Modern International Law:
  The trials set legal precedents for how the world addresses large-scale crimes, influencing the creation of later tribunals and the International Criminal Court (ICC).

2. Film Portrayals & Dramatization of Nuremberg

• Discussion of the Recent Film "Nuremberg":
  Both Di Caro and Whiting appreciate the importance of the film but note dramatic liberties, such as subplots about Dr. Kelly, which are not historically accurate (09:34–11:03).

  "I wasn't crazy about the movie. I thought the story with the psychologists didn't work that well. And I found it a little bit overwrought and for me a little bit distracting. But I think it's a movie definitely worth seeing."
  — Alex Whiting (09:34)

• Portrayal of Hermann Goering:
  Russell Crowe’s rendition of Goering effectively captures his central role, charisma, and the tense courtroom dynamic with Justice Jackson (11:53–12:44).
• Use of Historical Footage:
  The film incorporates actual footage of liberated concentration camps, echoing the real trial’s presentation of filmed evidence, which profoundly moved the judges and defendants (17:00–18:08).

3. Nature of the Trials & Legal Innovations

• Limited Witness Testimony:
  The original trial was document-heavy, relying on Nazi records—“mountains” of evidence—rather than extensive live witness testimony (16:58–18:08).
• Crimes Prosecuted:
  • War Crimes: Firmly anchored in existing conventions (Hague 1907, Geneva 1929).
  • Crimes Against Humanity & Aggression: Less solid legal precedents at the time; new legal definitions were created (27:28–30:56).
  • Genocide: The term was not yet formally codified—Raphael Lemkin pressed for its inclusion, but it would only be recognized in the 1948 Genocide Convention (33:03–33:51).
• "Victor's Justice" Criticism:
  Only Axis crimes were prosecuted; Allied atrocities were not in scope, raising questions about tribunal legitimacy (27:28–30:56).

4. Contemporary Relevance & Challenges

• Failures to Apply Nuremberg Precedents Today:
  Despite institutional frameworks (like ICC and regional tribunals), accountability for modern atrocities—Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan—remains elusive (22:01–25:33).
  • Many powerful nations (U.S., Russia, China, Israel) are not parties to the ICC, limiting its jurisdiction (24:04).
  • Political realities frequently obstruct international justice; realpolitik often outweighs legal mechanisms (25:33–26:28).

  "...Are they achieving anything today? Well, that's a different question. And no they're not. At the moment they're being blocked because countries are not supporting those efforts. We're falling back into a world where it's sovereign power, power instead of law."
  — Alex Whiting (25:23)

• Evolution of International Laws:
  • Expansion of Crimes Against Humanity: Now includes acts committed in internal conflicts and against civilian populations by their own governments (38:07–39:18).
  • Genocide’s Limitations: Defined narrowly, does not protect political groups; crimes against humanity provide broader protections (39:52–41:13).

5. Legacies: Precedent, Limitations, and Future Directions

• Setting the Moral and Legal Standard:
  Nuremberg established that individuals, not just states, could be held accountable for atrocities, laying the groundwork for modern expectations of international justice (41:43–43:19).

  "So Nuremberg has an enduring legacy as a precedent. It is at the foundation of the new tribunals. And these new tribunals are creating new precedents..."
  — Alex Whiting (41:51)

• Ongoing Necessity of International Law:
  Without legal norms, the alternative is global chaos—a situation increasingly visible in today's international relations. The hosts argue for the urgent need to reinvigorate international institutions and accountability (43:19–45:17).

  "An absence of law internationally is not sustainable. And I think the world will soon return to recognizing that."
  — Alex Whiting (44:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• [02:44] Alex Whiting:
  "Nuremberg is an incredible accomplishment because it is the first time that an international criminal tribunal applies international rules of war, crimes against humanity, aggression to a conflict. And it is a triumph of law over war."
• [09:34] Alex Whiting on the Film:
  "I wasn't crazy about the movie. I thought the story with the psychologists didn't work that well. And I found it a little bit overwrought and for me a little bit distracting. But I think it's a movie definitely worth seeing."
• [18:08] Alex Whiting on Evidence:
  "...the Nazis had meticulously written down both their plans and their purposes, but also what they actually did. And mountains of that evidence came in at the trial."
• [20:26] Alex Whiting:
  "Nuremberg is an incredible accomplishment because it is the first time that an international criminal tribunal applies international rules of war... and it is a triumph of law over war."
• [22:01] Alex Whiting on Contemporary Context:
  "Nuremberg was the triumph of international institutions and international law that followed the catastrophe of World War II. Today, we're facing the dismantling of international laws and international norms, international institutions."
• [25:23] Alex Whiting on International Law Today:
  "...Are they achieving anything today? Well, that's a different question. And no they're not. At the moment they're being blocked because countries are not supporting those efforts. We're falling back into a world where it's sovereign power, power instead of law."
• [30:56] Alex Whiting (on legal innovations):
  "So there's a long history of war crimes being prosecuted by states. During World War I, there were prosecutions in the United States, there were war crimes prosecutions in the 19th century. So that is on solid footing. Then things get more complicated..."
• [33:03] Alex Whiting on Lemkin and Genocide:
  "Raphael Lemkin is the person who coined the term, invented the crime and advocated for it, and as you say, tried to get the tribunal to adopt it. ... But the Americans did not embrace this as a concept and the judges did not either."
• [39:52] Alex Whiting on Definitions:
  "...crimes against humanity is more broadly defined, and that covers any widespread or systematic crimes committed against a civilian population...So crimes against humanity sometimes doesn't get enough attention. It is a powerful, important crime which is much broader in application and genocide and covers many of the kinds of crimes that we see going on around the world today that we would equate with genocide."
• [41:43] Alex Whiting on Legacy:
  "So Nuremberg has an enduring legacy as a precedent. It is at the foundation of the new tribunals. And these new tribunals are creating new precedents, which I think even though we're in a low moment right now for international law, we're going to return..."
• [44:34] Alex Whiting on the Need for Law:
  "An absence of law internationally is not sustainable. And I think the world will soon return to recognizing that. The challenges we face as a planet today, whether it's climate, immigration, economic AI, are things that require international solutions and international approaches. And we will have to if we do not want to destroy the world... we're going to have to return to international approaches, international law, international institutions."

Key Segments by Timestamp

• Opening & Introduction of Nuremberg Themes: [01:34–03:06]
• Film Portrayal & Goering’s Cross-Examination: [09:34–14:08]
• Discussion of Historical Evidence: [16:58–18:41]
• Modern International Law Mechanisms: [22:01–26:28]
• Detailed Legal Foundations of Nuremberg: [27:28–32:23]
• Defining Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity: [33:03–41:13]
• Legacy and Contemporary Value of Nuremberg: [41:43–46:28]

Final Thoughts: The Enduring Importance of Nuremberg

The episode underscores the paradox of Nuremberg’s legacy: it was both a product of its time (a “victor’s justice” that enshrined new legal norms) and an enduring foundation for modern conceptions of international justice. Even amid ongoing atrocities and limitations in holding states or individuals accountable today, Nuremberg remains a touchstone—a vital reminder that law, not mere power, must govern the affairs of nations.

"An absence of law internationally is not sustainable." — Alex Whiting (44:34)

For further exploration, listen to the full episode or consult contemporary works by scholars such as Dirk Moses on genocide and the evolution of international criminal law.