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- [00:00]
Michael Osborne
There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history podcasts@intohristory.com I love to cook, and that passion was ignited in large part by the chefs and culinary personalities I saw on TV growing up. Martin Yan on Yan Can Cook, Jacques Pepin on Everyday Cooking, James Smith on the Frugal Gourmet, Justin Wilson on Louisiana Cookin, and of course, Julia Child on today's Saturday Matinee. We bring you a recipe for fame, adventure and influence. The life of Julia Child as told by the podcast's Famous and Gravy, a pop culture history show that explores the fascinating lives and legacies of recently deceased celebrities, icons and cultural figures. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to follow Famous and Gravy. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.
- [01:12]
Amit Kapoor
The HBO Original series the Gilded Age.
- [01:15]
Michelle Dollenberg
Is back and so is the official companion podcast. Are you curious about how they brought Gilded Age New York to life? I don't understand. Which bit is not clear? None of it is clear. Want to know where the writers branched off from history?
- [01:31]
Michael Osborne
Well, when you set your mind on a thing, no one can stop you.
- [01:34]
Michelle Dollenberg
I take that as a compliment. Watch or listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast. Wherever you find podcasts.
- [01:42]
Amit Kapoor
You know that person in your life who just can't stand mayo. Call them traumatized. Call them close minded. We get it. They're stuck in their ways. But here's the thing. They just haven't tried Hellman's Flavored Mayo. We're talking bold flavors that will flip even the biggest skeptics. Spicy mayo that adds the perfect kick to your burger. Garlic aioli that transforms ordinary fries into something extraordinary. Chipotle mayo that turns your basic wrap into a smoky sensation. So to all the mayo haters out there, yes, we're looking at you. It's time to eat your words. Because with mayo this flavorful, any hater is just a mayo lover waiting to be convinced. Hellman's Flavored Mayo. Get ready to eat your words.
- [02:28]
Michelle Dollenberg
This is famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us@helloamousengravy.com now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.
- [02:41]
Michael Osborne
This person died 2004, age 91. Her father was a wealthy farm consultant and investor. Her Mother was a housewife wife with a cook and a maid who could not make much more than baking powder, biscuits, codfish balls and Welsh rarebit. Wow, this sounds like a Kellogg heiress.
- [02:59]
Michelle Dollenberg
Or something like that.
- [03:00]
Michael Osborne
Not a Kellogg heiress, but good guess. She attended Smith College at a time when women could be either nurses or teachers, she said. And she had some vague idea of being a novelist or a basketball star.
- [03:13]
Michelle Dollenberg
Well, there were a lot of interesting people at Smith College at that point in time. She must have been tall.
- [03:20]
Michael Osborne
After World War II broke out, she signed up for intelligence work with the Office of Strategic Services, hoping to become a spy, but was sent off as a file clerk.
- [03:29]
Michelle Dollenberg
Ooh. Okay, let me think about this.
- [03:33]
Michael Osborne
I don't know. I don't know. Did she go to law school? She did not go to law school. A self confessed ham, she became a darling of audiences and comedians almost from the moment she made her debut on WGBH in Boston in 1963.
- [03:49]
Michelle Dollenberg
Phyllis Diller.
- [03:50]
Michael Osborne
Not Phyllis Diller. Good guess. All right. She was a towering figure on the culinary front for more than 40 years. Most Americans knew her as the imperturbable host of the long running PBS television series the French Chef. Julia Child.
- [04:05]
Michelle Dollenberg
Julia Child.
- [04:07]
Michael Osborne
Today's dead celebrity is Julia Child.
- [04:11]
Michelle Dollenberg
When you co wrote Mastering the Art.
- [04:12]
Michael Osborne
Of French Cooking, did you see it as a way to introduce Americans to French cuisine?
- [04:20]
Julia Child
Yes, I was tremendously interested in French cuisine because it's the only cuisine that has the real rules on how to cook. Because I had started in quite late. I was in my early 30s when I started cooking. And I found that the recipes in all the books I had were really not adequate. They didn't tell you enough. And I'm for one, I won't do anything unless I'm told why I'm doing it. So I felt that we needed fuller explanations so that if you followed one of those recipes, it should turn out exactly right. My feeling is that once you know everything and have digested it, then it becomes part of you.
- [05:06]
Michael Osborne
Welcome to Famous and Gravy.
- [05:08]
Michelle Dollenberg
I'm Michael Osborne and my name is Michelle Dollenberg.
- [05:11]
Michael Osborne
And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century. And we take a totally different, different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today? Julia Child, died 2004, age 91. All right, so Amit is out today and I've invited my friend Michelle to guest host. Michelle is a producer based in Austin we have worked on a ton of projects together. Right now we're working on a show that Michelle had an idea for called Where Should I Live? Michelle, what's the sort of, like, pitch for Where I live? How would you describe it to people?
- [05:49]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, Where Should I Live is a podcast about how we figure out where we belong. And it started out because I was trying to figure out whether I should stay here in Austin or move somewhere new. That felt more like home to me. And now it's feeling a lot more relevant because there's a lot of people trying to figure out, does this place that we live actually feel safe and welcoming and can I have the kind of life that I want here?
- [06:14]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. Well, and I think that question is really on people's mind. And I like the way you describe it around belonging. Well, the other thing about it, too, is there's kind of relationship between that and for me and food. I mean, part of Where Should I Live is, like, also speaking to a kind of travel lust, which one of the criteria for should I move to this city or this town is, is the food good there?
- [06:34]
Michelle Dollenberg
Right. Does it have the kind of food that I love to eat? So on this podcast, I explore different cities and narrow down a list of places that I think I could live. And then I'm going to go to these cities and have someone local there give me a tour as a potential future resident. So I'm going to imagine what it might be like to live there. Where would I go get coffee? What restaurants would I go to, where my daughter go to school? Could I have this life? And it's not that different, actually, from some of the themes of famous and gravy. Like, what? I want this life Totally.
- [07:02]
Michael Osborne
Well. And I like that you're going to be dating cities. It's like Tinder for life. Okay, cool. All right. Well, let's get just right into it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Julia Child, who turned the art of French cooking into primetime television entertainment and brought cassoulet to a casserole culture in the two volumes of her monumental Mastering the Art of French Cooking, died yesterday at her home in Santa Barbara, California, two days before her 92nd birthday. Michelle, your reactions?
- [07:38]
Michelle Dollenberg
So my gut reaction to this was, yeah, pretty good.
- [07:40]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. I think it's like, somewhere between good and great.
- [07:43]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, I agree.
- [07:44]
Michael Osborne
So what stood out to you?
- [07:46]
Michelle Dollenberg
Well, the turn of phrase cassoulet to a casserole culture. And I liked the way no one else can see you, but you kind of had this flair when you Said it that felt a little fancy, like cassoulet. I wonder, do you guys ever talk about the people who write these? Because I wonder if the guy or the gal who wrote this was like, oh, wait, wait, listen to this one I came up with.
- [08:06]
Michael Osborne
I 100% agree. No. Whoever wrote this was little bit proud of themselves, but I'm kind of good with it. Right. There is charm to that turn of phrase. Cassoulet to a casserole culture. It's got the alliteration, obviously, but it's interesting what it means. Cassoulet. I don't think I've ever had cassoulet.
- [08:22]
Michelle Dollenberg
I don't know what cassoulet is.
- [08:23]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, I don't think I know what it is either. But casserole culture. I don't know what casserole culture is, but it sounds bland.
- [08:30]
Michelle Dollenberg
I actually do know what casserole culture is. Sometimes when people say, where are you from? I say, I am from the land of tuna fish casserole because I'm from Nebraska.
- [08:40]
Michael Osborne
Right. And also the rise of processed foods. One thing that's so interesting that I didn't really think about before getting ready for this episode is how much the rise of Julia Child is very different from the rise of a certain American diet post World War II. And that one of the things she's doing is countering a very prominent trend where it was all about convenience and about efficiency and a little bit tasteless and. And she comes in and, like, reintroduces a love of cooking in the kitchen. And I didn't quite understand those opposing forces.
- [09:13]
Michelle Dollenberg
I don't think I did either. And I want to talk about this more later, but it's this idea that not only cooking could be something fun and interesting and enjoyable, but eating itself could be enjoyable. That that's a huge contradiction. Because casserole, I mean, they're fine. It's like comfort food, but it's not. I mean, it's not sexy.
- [09:34]
Michael Osborne
Let's go with that.
- [09:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
The cassoulet is like the steak, and the casserole is like Hamburger Helper.
- [09:38]
Michael Osborne
Right. Okay, let's talk about the rest of it. I mean, I actually think the art of French cooking, that phrase had to be in here. I love that they got both the TV show and the book. I mean, I think that they needed Mastering the Art of French Cooking, Very famous book. And her primetime television entertainment. And I even like the word monumental. I read volumes of monumental. Yeah, there is something monumental about Julia Child.
- [10:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, yeah. Her voice, her personality, her gravitas. She's monumental. I mean, so what do you think.
- [10:09]
Michael Osborne
Is, like, an omission here? What's missing?
- [10:11]
Michelle Dollenberg
The only thing, if anything, it could say just a tiny bit more about her exuberant personality and her voice. But maybe Monumental is doing the work there.
- [10:21]
Michael Osborne
I think Monumental is more in reference to the book. I don't know if it captures, like, her Persona. And I think you're right that she is such a unique personality and figure. There's not a whole lot of references to that side of her or to. To who she was. The way when you see the word Cass, you do kind of want to do a Julia Child impersonation. We'll save that for later. You know, what was actually missing for me is that they didn't mention public broadcasting or pbs. She's such a, like, figure of public broadcasting that I kind of wanted, not just prime time television entertainment. I wanted, like, public broadcasting. Television entertainment or something. Even though she goes on to do commercial work with Good Morning America and so forth, she's up there with Fred Rogers and reading Rainbow. I mean, she's such a, like, PBS figure for me.
- [11:08]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, yeah.
- [11:09]
Michael Osborne
I think for a lot of people that I kind of wanted allusion to that.
- [11:11]
Michelle Dollenberg
I didn't even think about that. But you are so right. That's exactly how she started. She was on a book club show basically, like, where they talked about books, and she came on to talk about her book, and then she makes an omelette on tv and it blows everyone's minds. Which sounds hilarious to say this today. It's like you made an omelette and that changed the world. But it did.
- [11:31]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's true. And otherwise, I think this is very strong. So I don't know. Let's go ahead and give our grade. What would you give this, Michelle?
- [11:39]
Michelle Dollenberg
I would say I'm gonna give it an 8.5.
- [11:42]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, you can't. There's no points. You gotta either go eight or there's no rounding in this.
- [11:45]
Michelle Dollenberg
I'll give it. I can't decide do I want to go up or down.
- [11:48]
Michael Osborne
You want me to go for? I'm gonna give it a nine.
- [11:50]
Michelle Dollenberg
I'm gonna give it a nine.
- [11:51]
Michael Osborne
It makes it easier for me.
- [11:52]
Michelle Dollenberg
I think a nine. Yeah. I think line here.
- [11:54]
Michael Osborne
I think this is very, very good. There's a piece or two missing. Maybe. Could have used a little bit more for personality. Kind of would have liked to seen a pbs. But this captures a lot, I think, that turn of phrase here. Castle, to a casserole culture. It's just so Nice to see in the first line of Julia Child's obituary. I'm giving extra marks for that.
- [12:12]
Michelle Dollenberg
I like that too. And I, yeah, I, I high five whoever wrote this in the obit writers room. Good job.
- [12:19]
Michael Osborne
Okay, nine out of nine, category two five things I love about you here. Michelle and I will develop a list of five things that different angle on who this person was and how they lived. Would you be okay if I let off? I've got one thing that I'm sort of itching to say.
- [12:33]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, go for it.
- [12:34]
Michael Osborne
Late bloomer. This has come up a bunch on famous and gravy. The more a figure becomes famous late in life, the more drawn to them I am and the more I feel I learned something important. So Julia Child was 32 before she ever cooked. She was a wealthy growing up and had people cook for her and had no experience in the kitchen. She was 34 when she married. And this is at a time when a lot of women and men were getting married at much younger ages. She was 39 when she finished at the Cordon Bleu, which is where she trained as a cook and as a chef. And then she's 49, almost 50 when the cookbook that she co wrote is published. She was on nobody's radar for the first 50 years of her life. There was nothing before age 50 that would have said she will one day be a household name. Not only is that unusual for people, that's unusual for women. And that's especially unusual for women who are not like bombshells on tv. It's such an unlikely story and I love how late in life it is. Her fame, what we know her for, all happened after the age of 51, 52. And even then, it wasn't until she's like in her late 50s that French chef really takes off. I need to be reminded of that I am 46. Coming up on 47. Sometimes I feel like the ship has sailed. It's not even that I want to be famous. It's just that I want my successes to be in the future. You know, the things I'm hoping for myself, I need to hold space that they may still happen. I think this is remarked upon with Julia Child in a way. But after all the research and after thinking about this like it's my favorite thing about her story. So maybe a little generic, but late bloomer.
- [14:14]
Michelle Dollenberg
No, I love that. I am also almost 47. And I thought about that too. Like, what if there's more to do? Maybe this isn't all there is. Maybe don't think I'm going to become famous, nor do I want to be, but there's more to look forward to. Like, that's really, really exciting to think about. And I love that she was doing this work up until she died, basically. Like, she did a TV show into her 80s. Amazing.
- [14:38]
Michael Osborne
There's a kind of patience with it, too. The fact that she had never stepped into a kitchen. Nothing in her story that would have suggested she had this innate talent. It's almost like somebody who's like a musical prodigy who doesn't pick up a guitar until they're in their 30s or something. Yeah, that's such a hopeful quality. So, yeah, late bloomer. That's my thing. Number one.
- [14:58]
Michelle Dollenberg
I love that.
- [14:59]
Michael Osborne
All right, what do you got for number two?
- [15:00]
Michelle Dollenberg
She was a promoter of pleasure.
- [15:03]
Michael Osborne
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:05]
Michelle Dollenberg
So we talked about this a little bit, the obit line. But she was such a huge contradiction to this time. You know, this time in the 50s. Like, we were saying she wasn't making more casseroles. She was saying, you deserve pleasure. You deserve beautiful food. And I'm actually gonna argue that she was a pleasure activist.
- [15:27]
Michael Osborne
Oh, I like that. Pleasure activist.
- [15:28]
Michelle Dollenberg
You know that term?
- [15:29]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, no, I've never heard that before.
- [15:31]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, yeah. So that term was coined by Adrienne Maree Brown. She's a queer black American writer, organizer, facilitator, and she wrote a book called Pleasure Activism. And it's being talked about a lot right now because people are protesting and doing a lot of activism. And the idea is that centering pleasure is a political act, not suffering, not just work, work, work, work, work. The. The idea of taking time to breathe, taking time to have pleasure, all of that stuff is actually a resistance act. I think Julia realized this, that having pleasure, taking pleasure in food, not just. You know, sometimes people think pleasure activism is about eroticism or sex, but it's also about food and cooking and anything that we take joy in. And so I think Julia really. That opened up for her when she first went to France, and she tries this food for the first time, and.
- [16:23]
Michael Osborne
She'S Has a sensory experience.
- [16:25]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah. She's like, oh, my gosh, what have I been. Yeah. What have I been missing out on? So this idea that it's our birth right to have pleasure and to get pleasure from food. And I feel like I don't think she would have ever called herself this in her lifetime, and that term didn't exist then. But if we think about the way that she. I mean, she has this TV show, she has this Platform. She has these books that sell 3.5 million copies, and she's promoting this idea of pleasure and joy through food. Again, that was this time that we maybe don't even remember realize that this was a time of opening a can of peas for your vegetable and not having fresh foods and not having beautiful food.
- [17:01]
Michael Osborne
You're of the school that says you should really enjoy your food rather than having to eat a certain balanced diet. Tell us about that.
- [17:11]
Julia Child
I belong to the American Institute of Wine and Food, and our logo is of moderation, small helpings, and a little bit of everything, because you don't know what you might be missing. And above all, have a good time.
- [17:25]
Michael Osborne
So you're not pushing away the butter and the cream.
- [17:28]
Julia Child
No, absolutely not. You should have something of everything, and you should thoroughly enjoy it. Cause if you don't, you won't digest well.
- [17:36]
Michelle Dollenberg
So I love that. I. When I started thinking that way, I really. It just opened something up for me.
- [17:41]
Michael Osborne
No, I mean, the thing is, like, some of why we love Julia Child, I think is obvious that she does make an emphatic case over the course of the second half of her life that food is a pleasure and it's part of living and it's joyous and it's sensory experiences should be indexed high in anybody's life. But I guess I'm curious to learn more about this idea of it as a political act. But it's a really helpful framing for sort of encapsulating her legacy. I love that Pleasure activist. Okay, I'll take number three, I guess. I mean, I feel like we have to talk about the secret agent lady, the fact that she worked for the oss. I guess a lot of people who know Julia Child's story knew this part of it. She was never exactly a spy. When I first learned that she worked for the OSS, which was the precursor to the CIA. This is how she spent World War II. This is how she met her husband Paul, who we'll talk more about later. I had really hoped that she was like, deep undercover in Russia or something.
- [18:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
I was, too. I was disappointed or, you know, behind.
- [18:38]
Michael Osborne
The lines in Nazi Germany. And that was not the case. But she was working with senior leadership and what became the CIA. And more than anything, she was like the keeper of secrets. She knew where the agents were. And in as much as intelligence work is about trading information, she knew who had what information. It's. It's just really cool to imagine Julia Child as a spy. She kind of like, at times downplays this and Says, oh, I was more of a file clerk, but then the agents are like, no, no, no. She had an unbelievably important role and she was mostly in Asia. So she was in Sri Lanka. She was in China.
- [19:14]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [19:14]
Michael Osborne
And in D.C. for a while. Anyway, a cool part of her story I had no idea about that. I loved.
- [19:19]
Michelle Dollenberg
Did you dive into the shark repellent recipe?
- [19:22]
Michael Osborne
Oh, right, I forgot about that. Why don't you explain what that is?
- [19:25]
Michelle Dollenberg
Okay, so this kind of made into a joke sometimes in her biography, but people will say, oh, her first recipe was actually that she helped create shark repellent for the Navy. And so I guess during that time there would be Navy men who would get attacked by sharks as they were coming down from the plains or whatever. Yeah.
- [19:46]
Michael Osborne
I think it was also like setting under underwater bombs and they're also under.
- [19:49]
Michelle Dollenberg
I heard different stories, I read different. I even went to the CIA.gov website to see if I could find out more information. And they kind of hilariously. And maybe it's because it's a public facing site, but they're kind of like, isn't this cool? Like, even the CIA itself is like, isn't this neat?
- [20:05]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, yeah, but it. But so it's like some chemical concoction that repels sharks and keeps them away from the subs and the bombs.
- [20:12]
Michelle Dollenberg
Right. But in. Some of the information about Julia was declassified apparently over the last however many. And evidently in the reports, it says that it had a mild deterrent effect. So it didn't work super well. But what it did do was it helped the military folks. It. It's helped them psychologically. And then I. I read that Julia would say in interviews, oh, it's still being used today by NASA when things come down into the ocean or whatever. And the CIA says they cannot confirm that they don't know.
- [20:45]
Michael Osborne
Oh, interesting. This has been redacted.
- [20:47]
Michelle Dollenberg
Like the CIA doesn't know. Who. Who's gonna know then? I don't know.
- [20:50]
Michael Osborne
I. They may know and just are not telling me.
- [20:52]
Michelle Dollenberg
Maybe. Yeah.
- [20:53]
Michael Osborne
Okay. Secret agent lady. That was my number three.
- [20:56]
Michelle Dollenberg
Love it.
- [20:57]
Michael Osborne
What do you got for number four?
- [20:58]
Michelle Dollenberg
I want to talk about her AIDS activism and Planned Parenthood activism.
- [21:03]
Michael Osborne
Yeah.
- [21:04]
Michelle Dollenberg
And also her willingness to admit she was wrong because evidently she was, in retrospect, rather homophobic. Yeah.
- [21:13]
Michael Osborne
I saw this a lot. She came up of an age where I think that that was the cultural norm, obviously.
- [21:19]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah. But yet she had a lot of gay friends. And I read, you probably read this too, that she wouldn't even realize that they were gay because they had girlfriends. And she would say, oh, I wonder when they're gonna get married. And people, you know, do the side like Julia?
- [21:33]
Michael Osborne
Really? Yeah, totally get married.
- [21:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
Or maybe they will, but. And so then her close friend Bob Johnson is gay, and he succumbs to AIDS in 1986. And this just galvanizes her. She wakes up, she apologizes for the way that she just talked about homosexuality, gay people, and sexuality. And in the wake of his death, she pours herself into hosting benefits and raising money to fight aids. And I think that's amazing to be able to publicly say I was wrong. And I said some things that I shouldn't have said. Not only am I going to apologize for that, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is, and I'm going to raise money to help.
- [22:12]
Michael Osborne
It's especially unusual for somebody in their 70s. Yeah, I hate to be, like, ageist about it. Right. But the older we get, the more rigid we get in our thinking often. And. And you mentioned Planned Parenthood. I mean, I didn't realize quite what an outspoken Planned Parenthood advocate she was. She was like, you know, figure number one for that organization, and she took.
- [22:33]
Michelle Dollenberg
Heed for it and people. And she was such a public figure at that time. It's the 80s. She's hosting benefits to fundraise. She's making statements that were considered risky. She gets backlash, and she does not care. She writes in her articles, and she. She just stands up. She doesn't care if people stop watching her, because that's that important to her.
- [22:52]
Michael Osborne
The other thing that I felt was interesting about her political activism is that her father and her upbringing is completely on the other side. Yeah, he is, like, extraordinarily conservative. And her mom dies at a fairly young age, and she's the oldest, and her father is, like, kind of looms large. That she came to her own politics, like, sort of independently is something I admired about her journey. There was definitely, like, an independent woman emerging as she grew.
- [23:18]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Michael Osborne
Okay, I'm gonna take number five, if that's okay. I've got one thing I love her violence. Whenever, like, okay, so I had not watched a lot of Julia Child growing up. That was not on my tv. Nobody in my family was watching it. When I went back and watched the clips, the way she'll, like, take and start beating something else, it's like, oh, my God, you know, like, she's got these, like, hands where she's, like, really rubbing her hand and she's, you know, beating the Heck, out of food.
- [23:42]
Julia Child
Cold and hard, as it should be, and you want to beat it. This is not an actual rolling pin. It's one that my husband made for me out of an old garage broom handle. And if you cut it right in the right place, if you go through.
- [23:59]
Michelle Dollenberg
The.
- [24:02]
Julia Child
Cartilaginous part of the vertebrae, you can cut it right through, and you don't have to use a saw.
- [24:08]
Michael Osborne
There's something violent about her in the kitchen that I really kind of like. It's like, it's a take control kind of thing. I'm not a great chef, but when I do cook and I'm getting into it, I like it more. The older I get, the more I actually enjoy the experience. I can be very timid in the kitchen. And one thing, she's sort of famously kind of clumsy in a way, but she's also violent. So maybe it's boldness in the kitchen that I'm really speaking to, but it's such a. Like, it's aggro and it's kind of awesome. And I think it's part of what makes her so compelling as a TV figure.
- [24:38]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, absolutely. And I was what popped into my head as you were saying. That is chaos. Muppet.
- [24:42]
Michael Osborne
Yeah.
- [24:43]
Michelle Dollenberg
Because she. She's bold, and she's like, I'm gonna chop this thing. I'm gonna do this. And if it ends up on the floor, who cares? She didn't really drop a chicken on the floor. That is not true. She dropped a pancake, I guess, and it wasn't on the floor. It was onto the stove. But people remember her. Oh, she lets things fall on the floor, and she just picks them right back up.
- [25:01]
Michael Osborne
There's urban myths around some of this. But she does talk about it also as, like, it's okay to fail. That's part of the idea. There is a real forgivingness to, like, fear of failure, and that only that has to be exist with a kind of gusto that she brings to like, well, let's beat the hell out of whatever it is we're making now.
- [25:17]
Julia Child
One thing I think a lot of people are just so scared of, any rustic they see that says sugar syrup or caramel. No, I won't do anything like that. And that is this awful American syndrome of fear of failure. And if you're going to have a sense of fear of failure, you're just never going to learn how to cook, because cooking is lots of. It is one failure after another. And that's how you finally learn.
- [25:44]
Michael Osborne
Okay, let's recap then. So number one, I said late bloomer. Number two, you said pleasure activist. Is that how you put it? I love that. Pleasure activist. Number three, I said secret agent lady.
- [25:56]
Michelle Dollenberg
Number four, you went with AIDS and Planned Parenthood activism.
- [26:00]
Michael Osborne
And number five, I said violence in the kitchen. I like cast Muppet. Let's go. Chaos Muppet. Okay, awesome list. Let's take a break.
- [26:09]
Michelle Dollenberg
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- [26:47]
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- [27:18]
Michael Osborne
Mathis Holmes Category 3 One Love in this category, Michelle and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the family life data. So she married Paul, who is the love of her life, in 1946. They met during the war. Julia was 34 when they married. Paul died in 1994. She never married again. So they were married for about 48 years. They had no children. So Julia Child was childless. The other relevant info I put down here was that Paul's mom was named Bertha. So her name was Bertha Child.
- [27:58]
Michelle Dollenberg
I don't know.
- [28:00]
Michael Osborne
That struck me as funny. Yeah, her mother in law was Bertha Child. I guess the other thing that is maybe noteworthy, it does sound like she did want to have kids and the ship sailed. I think Paul was less interested in children. It's hard to know what to make of the Julia and Julia movie, the Meryl Streep and Amy Adams movie, the way it's portrayed in that it was Something she grieved and was sad about. And a couple of times she makes reference to like, I would have liked to have children at the same time, you know, she's such a teacher that I feel like whatever parenting instincts she has find their expression in her public life and in her professional life.
- [28:38]
Michelle Dollenberg
And she also has a bunch of nieces and nephews. And they all describe how she was like a parental figure to them. She was very loving and caring and in fact her grand nephew ends up co writing her autobiography with her.
- [28:51]
Michael Osborne
Well, and I think before we share our word or phrase, I think it's worth saying another beat here about Paul. So they met during the war. He was in the State Department. He's the reason they are overseas. And it's sort of his work that leads them to Europe, Paris and then later, I think they're in Marseilles and then Oslo or they fall in love slowly. It sort of begins really as a friendship during the war and then as the war comes to a conclusion and they're separated, they realize that, you know, much, much deeper feelings when they go to Paris. I mean that feels like the real, not just honeymoon, but honeymoon phase of their marriage. Right. That's when she takes an interest in cooking and ends up going to the Cardon Bleu and so forth. His politics are very left and he ends up being a bit of a target for McCarthyism in the late 50s. And that happens to coincide with her deciding to co write this cookbook and so forth. I have more to say on that, but why don't I pause here? What did you have for. For word or phrase?
- [29:47]
Michelle Dollenberg
For my word. Well, I was really, I don't want to say obsessed. That's. But I absolutely loved their love. I read a bunch about it. I loved the way it's talked about in the documentary. I love that she wrote co wrote this entire book called My Life in Paris. All about that time. Their letters back and forth, just all of it.
- [30:08]
Michael Osborne
It was just very endearing and very sincere. Ruth Bader Ginsburg had a similar sort of relationship. It kind of reminded me of that one. Yeah, I, I agree. It's the thing that like sort of pops out when you get into her story is what a sort of unusual pair in a way, but also like committed, loving, sustained love, relationship.
- [30:26]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah. So yeah, my word was nested spoons. Like big spoon, little spoon.
- [30:34]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
- [30:36]
Michelle Dollenberg
And I think he was the big spoon to her little spoon. Even though he's. She's actually bigger than him. She's 6ft 2. And he's a little.
- [30:43]
Michael Osborne
I was gonna say, who gets the larger spoon here? Michelle. Yeah.
- [30:45]
Michelle Dollenberg
Well, physically. But emotionally, he's the big spoon. She talks about this. We had a happy marriage because we were together all the time. They talk about how they were better together than apart. And there's this quote from her where she says, paul Child, the man who is always there, porter, dishwasher, official photographer, mushroom dicer and onion chopper editor, fish illustrator, manager, taster, idea man, resident poet and husband.
- [31:11]
Michael Osborne
Yeah.
- [31:12]
Michelle Dollenberg
This guy. In a time where men dominated women and women were just relegated to do the household chores, he is her supporter, and he lets her career eclipse his. And he just unconditionally supports her. And I was amazed.
- [31:27]
Michael Osborne
It's very ahead of its time, this relationship. And I love that you said nested spoon because it's gonna just be so tempting to use a lot of cooking.
- [31:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
I had to do metaphors.
- [31:36]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. And I was looking for one, and I didn't quite come up with something as clever. I'll tell you what I had. I wrote it because it's very aligned and very similar in a way. I just wrote Headroom. And there is a literal part of this. When they move in together and buy a home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, one of the things that Paul is proactive about is making sure that the ceilings are a little bit higher because Julia is so tall that she's bumping her head on all kinds of things. And they designed her kitchen so that there would be literal headroom. But the bigger point here is the metaphorical headroom. That it is sort of incredible how not just supportive, but, like, easy it seems to be for him to say, your career is heading somewhere. You're becoming a figure with stature. It is my job as your husband to love and support and allow for that space because this journey you're on has a momentum all of its own. For me, one of the most hard things about marriage sometimes is allowing your partner to grow. Like is giving them the space to become a different person. That can be uncomfortable. Right. Make a vow and a commitment at a young age when you're still midstream in life and we're all growing and evolving into different people. And the whole dance of a healthy marriage, in some sense, is allowing extra space so that you can go where you need to go while still having a relationship. Headroom is basically what that is all about. And Paul creates that. He does not sound like a barrel of laughs, by the way.
- [33:07]
Michelle Dollenberg
No.
- [33:08]
Michael Osborne
Kind of strikes me as a little stiff. I don't know that I'd want to hang out with Paul, but that doesn't matter.
- [33:12]
Michelle Dollenberg
But Julia did. It's one of those things where you look at them and you're like, huh? It's like when you're. It reminded me of when your friend dates someone that you don't really get, like, huh.
- [33:20]
Michael Osborne
Yes.
- [33:21]
Michelle Dollenberg
Then you see them together and you're like, oh, okay. You guys get each other. It doesn't matter if I understand him. You understand each other and that's all that matters. And I have to say this really inspired me as a single. So I'm divorced. I am a single person.
- [33:35]
Michael Osborne
Yeah.
- [33:36]
Michelle Dollenberg
And I frequently feel, I don't want to say cynical about love, but I don't feel, I don't know, I feel differently than I did when I was in my 20s. You know, I feel like.
- [33:45]
Michael Osborne
Right. The whole happily ever after fairy tale is a little bit like there's been some water thrown on that.
- [33:50]
Michelle Dollenberg
No, but I, this, I will say this gave me hope. It made me feel like it's worth waiting for your spoon or whatever.
- [33:56]
Michael Osborne
Great. All right. Nested spoon and headroom. Good words. All right, let's move on. Category four, net worth. In this category, Michelle and I will each write down our numbers ahead of time. We're going to take talk a little bit about our reasoning and then we will look up the net worth number in real time to see whose guess is closest. Finally, we'll place Julia Child on the net worth leaderboard. I'll walk you through my thinking really quick because I wonder if it's very different from yours. So she's from a fairly well to do family. She's in Pasadena, California. Her father's investor and landholder. Pretty clear. She's doing pretty well. She doesn't have any dependents, which I think it can lead to fairly high accumulated wealth. Wealth. It didn't sound like she was making a lot of money from pbs and I don't think PBS pays that well.
- [34:38]
Michelle Dollenberg
I think they said $50 a show for.
- [34:41]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. It was like nothing. Yeah. But her cookbooks are crazy successful. So what else did you factor in if anything? Or is that pretty much it?
- [34:49]
Michelle Dollenberg
It's similar. I also noted that she donated a lot of money, so that's something. But what I did was I actually looked up the net worth of other famous female cookbook writers and TV show hosts like Cookie.
- [35:03]
Michael Osborne
Oh, so you went for some comps for. So like Rachael Ray.
- [35:06]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yes. So I looked up Paula Deen, Mary Berry, Ina Garden and Rachael Ray. So Paula deen is worth 14 million. Mary Berry from the Great British Bake off, she's worth 25 million. Ina Garden is worth 60 million, and Rachael Ray is 100 million.
- [35:23]
Michael Osborne
That doesn't surprise me at all, actually. I think that it's sort of like looking at basketball stars in the 60s compared to basketball stars in the 80s. Like, this becomes a big money making venturous time.
- [35:33]
Michelle Dollenberg
Exactly. So I kind of. I was thinking about her, and I thought, I think she's more than Paula Dean and more than Mary Berry, but less than Rachel Ray.
- [35:42]
Michael Osborne
Okay, I like that you went the comp route. I thought about this, and then I just didn't bother to look it up. Okay, so let's reveal. Michelle Dollenberg wrote down 60 million, and.
- [35:52]
Michelle Dollenberg
Michael Osborne wrote $11 million.
- [35:55]
Michael Osborne
Julia Child's actual net worth, 38 million. All right, so that's like, almost right in between.
- [36:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, that's pretty good.
- [36:04]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. I'm gonna say I was way off and you were way closer. You did better work on this. I. Okay. 38 million. Gosh, that's a lot of money for somebody who is PBS famous. It is a lot of cookbooks. I was way off. Saying I was way off. Nicely done, Michelle.
- [36:20]
Michelle Dollenberg
Thank you.
- [36:21]
Michael Osborne
So there is nobody else at the 38 million mark. This will place her at the 30th position on the famous engraving net worth leaderboard. Just above her at 40 million. Include Peter Fonda, Zsa Gabor, Bob Dole, Nora Efron, Wes Craven, and Patrick Swayze. Just below her At 35 million, George Romero, Philip Seymour Hoffman. That's nice positioning.
- [36:44]
Michelle Dollenberg
It seems like she could have a great dinner party with those folks.
- [36:48]
Michael Osborne
What would she cook for George Romero, Josh Akabor, and Philip Seymour Hoffman. I'd love to know. The meal should.
- [36:53]
Michelle Dollenberg
I would love to know.
- [36:54]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. Excellent. Okay, let's move on. Category 5, Little Lebowski Urban Achievers. They're the Little Lebowski Urban Achievers. Yeah. The Achievers.
- [37:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yes. And proud we are of all of.
- [37:04]
Michael Osborne
Them in this category, we each choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. Why don't you lead off here?
- [37:15]
Michelle Dollenberg
Okay. Well, I thought about going with the kitchen. Right this. So she donates her kitchen to the Smithsonian, which we can talk about, but I feel like a lot of people know that.
- [37:25]
Michael Osborne
That her kitchen's in the Smithsonian. It's so funny. Like, there's like, a very active fan base for Julia Child. Right. There are devotees of Julia Child that you'll encounter.
- [37:34]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, yeah. In fact, I found this Reddit thread on the Food Network that said, is it just, am I the asshole or I'm just a little over Julia Child? And then there's this edit, Yes, I am the asshole. Everyone loves Julia Child.
- [37:49]
Michael Osborne
Like, piled on. You cannot say that in the comments on any Reddit.
- [37:53]
Michelle Dollenberg
People are like, like, dude, you can't say that she is mother.
- [37:59]
Michael Osborne
That's fantastic. All right, so what did you. So you didn't go with the Smithsonian?
- [38:02]
Michelle Dollenberg
So I did a. It was, it was just mentioned in a little line in the New York Times obituary. There is an opera that was inspired by Julia Child's show and it's only 18 minutes long. It's called the Chamber Opera. Because it's a small opera. It's called Bon Appetit. So it originally, when they did the first production of it, it featured Gene Stapleton. And then many, many people have performed it since. I found a whole bunch of videos of mezzo sopranos performing this.
- [38:30]
Michael Osborne
Oh, so you can watch this online.
- [38:32]
Michelle Dollenberg
I watched it, yes. And I listened to it because it's only 18 minutes long. Right. Basically, it says it's a light hearted musical monologue that tells the listener how to make a chocolate cake in a roundabout way. I'm going to have a rainbow between the unlined copper ball and the machine. We're almost there. And that's all for today. Bon appetit. And the way this was created was the librettist, Mark Schulges. His partner was Lee Hoiby, who's a contemporary 20th century composer.
- [39:14]
Michael Osborne
And I have no idea who these people are.
- [39:16]
Michelle Dollenberg
Well, I think you might know that I have a background in music, so I have a degree in vocal performance, actually. And Lee hoiby, the composer, I had a couple of his songs on my senior recital, so I knew this composer a little bit.
- [39:29]
Michael Osborne
Okay, so these are known people to. You got it.
- [39:31]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah. So I was really interested in this. Right. Because of my singing background. So basically Mark creates the text for this by combining the transcripts from two episodes of the French Chef. And then his partner Lee Hoi B puts it to music. And it's so fun. And what the singer is asked to do is create a kitchen on stage and she's actually really making a chocolate cake while she's singing. And I obviously love.
- [39:58]
Michael Osborne
I would so see, I would so go to this. Yeah, like, this actually sounds like such a fun performance.
- [40:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
It's so fun. And so it was often used to open for maybe another show, I guess. He wrote another chamber opera that sometimes they would be performed together, but it's super fun. And I think her. I don't know if you want to talk about her voice now, but we might as well.
- [40:18]
Michael Osborne
I mean.
- [40:19]
Michelle Dollenberg
So I think in retrospect, it's obvious to turn her into an opera because her voice is already so operatic.
- [40:29]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. Oh, man, that's a good call.
- [40:31]
Michelle Dollenberg
I mean, this is why it's so fun to do a Julia Child impression, because it feels so good in our bodies to do that.
- [40:37]
Michael Osborne
That's what I was gonna say. Michelle, I think it's time. Let's hear your Julia Child impression.
- [40:42]
Michelle Dollenberg
All right. Well, do you want to hear how you do a Julia Child impression or just.
- [40:45]
Michael Osborne
Sure, yeah. Let's get into the mechanics of it. You're a voice person, so let' hear this.
- [40:49]
Michelle Dollenberg
Okay. Did you try to do a Julia Child impression?
- [40:52]
Michael Osborne
I tried in my car. Okay. I was driving around like, Julia Child. There's a. There's a. It's like, I hear it up here where she's talking about a beef bourguignon. The way it kind of is like, high, high, high, low is all I was able to do. But then I also realized how awful I sound trying to do this. I do not have a voice that lends itself to a Julia Child impersonation. So I think you. You just got my best effort there.
- [41:18]
Michelle Dollenberg
No, that was great. That was good. So you're right. It's this. Do you know the hard palate sort.
- [41:22]
Michael Osborne
Of like high in the head.
- [41:23]
Michelle Dollenberg
High in the head. So your hard. There's your hard palate inside your mouth, and then your soft palate is behind it. So you have to lift that up, like, to get. To get to it. Right. And then I was looking up, like, where did her voice come from? And people were saying that they think that no one really knows why she speaks this way. Someone wrote. And I thought this was really interesting. She's super tall. She's kind of a manly figure. And they wondered if she might have taken on this voice to sound a little more feminine.
- [41:51]
Michael Osborne
That's interesting. It does feel like it's all, like, upper half of the body and mostly in the head. Like, it's not the whole trunk. Right. It's not torso. It's all here. And every now and then goes down.
- [42:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
So people are also saying that she may have been influenced by the transatlantic accent. Do you know that?
- [42:09]
Michael Osborne
What is that?
- [42:10]
Michelle Dollenberg
So think Katharine Hepburn, the way that people used to talk in this very. You know, I can't really do it. But this heightened way.
- [42:17]
Michael Osborne
The time to make up your mind about people as never.
- [42:24]
Michelle Dollenberg
And I think that's Julia Child. So here's my impression. Ready?
- [42:28]
Michael Osborne
Okay.
- [42:29]
Michelle Dollenberg
Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Julia Child. Biographies from a different point of view. I need to work on that.
- [42:44]
Michael Osborne
That's really good, Michelle. Oh, shit. Yeah, it's good. We're gonna have to start doing that at the top of the episode. This is seam gravy.
- [42:53]
Michelle Dollenberg
Imagine if your show was in the 1950s on PBS.
- [42:58]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, exactly. We'd be talking about Albert Einstein today on the show. All right, let me give you my little Bowski Urban Achiever. This probably should have come out by now, but I went with kind of the easy route. The dan Aykroyd impersonation, 1978 or 79. I was a big fan of early SNL. They would show it on reruns at Nick and Knight when I was growing up. And I. I think this was actually the first time I learned who Julia Child was. So. So people probably know this moment. It's Dan Aykroyd playing Julia Child. He accidentally cuts his finger. And then it becomes. It's kind of my point about violence in a way. All of a sudden, blood is spurting everywhere, and he's talking about, like, feeling a little bit of fate. Now I've done it. I've cut the dickens out of my finger. Well, I'm glad in a way, this happened.
- [43:45]
Michelle Dollenberg
You know, accidents do come time to.
- [43:47]
Michael Osborne
Time in the kitchen.
- [43:48]
Michelle Dollenberg
We never really discussed what to do.
- [43:52]
Michael Osborne
The best way with direct pressure on the apron, like, so here's why I love it. It's not just the impersonation. She's one of these figures where everybody wants to do an impersonation. What I loved about this one was how much she loved it. She kept a tape of it, and when people would come over, she'd say, check this out. I got to show you Dan Aykroyd impersonating me and blood spurting all over the place. And isn't this the most hilarious thing you've ever seen? I love the humility of that because I've always thought it's gotta be an interesting thing to be so famous to be impersonated. Was your relationship to the impersonation. I feel like people on SNL have had to kind of, like, make peace with it. But this actually sounds like she delighted in it a little bit. The same way James Lipton and Alex Trebek liked watching Will Ferrell impersonate them.
- [44:37]
Michelle Dollenberg
It must be so fun. And I think that, that, that speaks to something that we haven't talked about yet as much, but her sense of humor. She's so freaking funny. Well, in the opening quiz, isn't there a line about how she's a ham?
- [44:50]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, a self confessed ham.
- [44:52]
Michelle Dollenberg
So she's, she's a self professed ham. Right. So I think she knows, I think she knows she's funny, I think.
- [44:58]
Michael Osborne
Well, and she's also at times described as a flirt.
- [45:00]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, yes, I read about that. Yeah, she's a flirt.
- [45:03]
Michael Osborne
And you see that in some of her public appearances that she's, she's flirting.
- [45:07]
Michelle Dollenberg
She loves, she loves to tease them, she loves to get close to them as she's an older woman, she's an elder, and she's flirting with these, these hosts of like Good Morning America or whatever. It's just awesome.
- [45:19]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. Okay, let's pause for another break.
- [45:23]
Michelle Dollenberg
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Michael Osborne
Category 6 Words to Live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them. Actually, before we do this, I wanted to call out a listener, Mary, who, who sent an email the other day. She was talking about the Roger Moore episode. One of the things we said we loved about Roger Moore was charm. And she said her grandmother used to say, charm will get you anywhere. Manners will keep you there, which I loved. And I was like, oh, Mary, I'm gonna say that on the show. I thought this would be a good moment for it. Because Julia Child has good manners and she's charming. Yeah. So thank you, Mary, for writing in. Okay. What did you have for words to live by here, Michelle?
- [47:20]
Michelle Dollenberg
I had the sky can fall. Omelettes can go all over the stove. I'm going to learn. I shall overcome.
- [47:29]
Michael Osborne
Wow.
- [47:30]
Michelle Dollenberg
It's from her cooking show. It's. I have the video and she's. It's a longer clip where she's talking about failure, which you referenced earlier. She's saying, who cares if the omelet goes all over the stove? Pull some more eggs out and do it again. Learn, overcome. And I think it also speaks to what you were saying earlier about doing things later in life. Like maybe it's not as easy to do this or that or. Or whatever. It speaks to so many things in life, not just cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, to mess things up.
- [47:59]
Michael Osborne
I love that, Michelle. And I gotta say, you just sparked something for me. I've really been on a few episodes recently, I've been talking about this, how much I really struggle with patience. Most of the time when I'm telling myself, like, self instruction, Michael, be patient. What I'm really saying is repress your emotions, suck it up, and try not to be self centered. But I really like the idea that part of what patience is, is allowing fail. Failure and is allowing self forgiveness. Right. That being patient is also about learning, which I'd never quite put together in my head before just now. And I think she's an excellent example of that.
- [48:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
And maybe there's patience for other. You know, if you're trying to cultivate patience, it's like patience for yourself that you don't. You're not always patient. I'm learning to be patient, but also patience for other people. Like, I think of my young daughter and you have young children too. It's like you have to have so much patience with kids sometimes, and you.
- [48:52]
Michael Osborne
Have to allow them to fail too. I mean, these ideas really go together. Yeah. Wow, that's really good, Michelle. I love that one. Okay. I'll tell you what I had. I had. Drama is very important in life. You have to come on with a bang. You never want to go out with a whimper. Everything can have drama if it's done right. Even a pancake. I think my favorite part of that was the last line, even the pancake, because it sounds so grandiose. But I mean, she understood as an entertainer that, like, we have to make cooking dramatic. You have to come on with a bang. You never want to go out with a whimper. Everything can have drama if it's done right. There is a balance that we have to strike in life between making sure it's interesting that the story of our lives have ups and downs that have some drama to them without being drama queens. Right. So I really like the last part of this quote. Everything can have drama if it's done right. Night. Even a pancake.
- [49:47]
Michelle Dollenberg
I want to see the episode where she makes a dramatic pancake.
- [49:51]
Michael Osborne
I've made. Oh, I've made dramatic pancakes before.
- [49:53]
Michelle Dollenberg
I have to ask you, when you were researching Julia Child, did you get hungry?
- [49:57]
Michael Osborne
Yes. Not only that, I also was like, all right, you know what? I'm gonna add some recipes. I'm gonna expand my repertoire, because I've got, you know, I've got a handful of things I do very, very well, and I've gotten a little stagnant. I came away inspired, and I think I wanna. I've never really dug into the mastering the art of French cooking. I think I'd really like. We've. Allison and I have done a few recip. And loves to. I mean, she won't cook it without doing her beef bourguignon impersonation. But having researched this, like, she is infectious that way. She is somebody who makes you want to, like, spend some hours in the kitchen absorbing the aromas and hearing the sounds. And like I said, I didn't grow up with her, but I came away inspired to be a better cook. That's her superpower.
- [50:41]
Michelle Dollenberg
Absolutely. I am in such a rut with food, and I'm so busy right now that I feel like food is just. Just, like, a box I have to check off, and I hate that. I really want to enjoy food. So.
- [50:52]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. You're succumbing to casserole culture.
- [50:54]
Michelle Dollenberg
I am in casserole culture, and I want to be in cassoulet culture.
- [50:59]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. Well, you know what? We should add a cassoulet recipe to the show notes.
- [51:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yes.
- [51:03]
Michael Osborne
We'll make sure it gets in there. Okay, let's move on. Category 7, man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self confidence, sense verse, self judgment. I went back and forth a little bit on this one. How'd you reason this one out?
- [51:21]
Michelle Dollenberg
My gut reaction was, yes, absolutely. And then I dug a little more into it, and I looked at, you know, things she'd said about herself or other people had said about her, and it's very difficult to find a lot of places where she is very open to talking about how she feels about herself. I didn't find a lot of that.
- [51:40]
Michael Osborne
And her physique in particular.
- [51:41]
Michelle Dollenberg
And her physique, yeah. But I did find, remember I mentioned her grand nephew who co wrote her autobiography and he said before she met Paul and lived in France, she considered herself too tall, too loud, too unsophisticated.
- [51:55]
Michael Osborne
I saw that too. I think before she finds Paul, there's a lot of self doubt and she is 6:2. She is, you know, kind of awkward.
- [52:04]
Michelle Dollenberg
I saw the word gawky. That's the beginning. But then she meets Paul and he absolutely adores her. And these letters back and forth between the two of them are just to die for. They're just.
- [52:14]
Michael Osborne
And also sounds like, especially in France, but really throughout that there's allusions to a very healthy sex life. Absolutely right. That makes sense. This is, you know, a woman who is building a career and is a. A voice of sensory pleasure.
- [52:29]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [52:29]
Michael Osborne
So I kind of was happy to see that and expected. But it does sound like a quality that was discovered.
- [52:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yes. And now she loves to be up in front of people. She's so confident. She loves. We just talked about the. You know, she's showing this video where she's mocked for her voice and her appearance and she loves it. I think the only place I read where she doubted her appearance is after she has breast cancer. So it's in the 60s and she has a mastectomy. And in her recovery period she tells Paul, how can you ever love me like this? And he has this great quote that you probably saw too where he says, I didn't marry you for your breasts, I married you for your legs. Which is like the perfect thing to say.
- [53:07]
Michael Osborne
It is. I saw that one and I had the same reaction. Action.
- [53:11]
Michelle Dollenberg
So, okay, so did I think that she did. I think that she was someone who was proud of herself. She was a great businesswoman. She had so much success. I don't think she. If she didn't feel good about herself, I don't think she would have kept going on television into her 80s. And I agree.
- [53:28]
Michael Osborne
That's where I landed too. And I basically had the same journey. I think ultimately she likes her reflection in the mirror and. And is at peace with it.
- [53:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
And I have to say that is so refreshing. And I was telling you this offline, you know that it's just such a contradiction to the times we're living in right now to be able to study and learn about such an exuberant, happy, grounded person and like Body positive too.
- [53:52]
Michael Osborne
I mean, one thing, she comes into criticism a lot for cream and butter and a high fat diet. And she talks about dieting and all things in moderation. And something else I love about her, which we haven't really talked about, but I love her relationship with food. Not just like how pleasurable it can be, but she has a sense of nutrition as well. She has a sense of variety. And everybody has a complicated relationship with how they eat. In as much as there is an ideal, I actually think she embodies that ideal.
- [54:23]
Michelle Dollenberg
And she has this great quote. She says, if you don't feel comfortable with butter, use cream.
- [54:27]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, they care.
- [54:29]
Michelle Dollenberg
She said, stop doing this to yourself. You can enjoy food in moderation. You don't have to eat heavy meals for every meal, but enjoy things. Try the desserts.
- [54:39]
Michael Osborne
Totally. Okay, next category. Coffee cocktail or cannabis? This is where we ask, which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity? I'll kick us off here. Is it too obvious to say a glass of wine in the kitchen? So I made this sort of more public on the show. I don't drink anymore. I'm retired from drugs and alcohol.
- [54:56]
Michelle Dollenberg
Same.
- [54:57]
Michael Osborne
But I do have very fond memories of drinking while cooking and having a glass of wine while working on. One of my favorite things to make is a chili. And I will reduce it for hours and hours. Any kind of reduction recipe where you're kind of like checking in on it periodically and. But you're seeing it bubbling on the stove that. With like a glass of wine and Julia Child. That sounds like such a delight for full afternoon to me. Maybe that's obvious, but that's the scene I want. And I will say, in as much as this category is about questions I would like to pose to her, I don't know, it's probably the thing that we were just talking about, relationship with food. I mean, I, I do think that this is such a hard question. Our food environment, especially in America, is filled with junk food. It's filled with variety. It's filled with all kinds of complicating psychological factors of how do we eat? How do we eat better? What should we eat? This is like a central conflict in everybody's life. Life. And somebody who says, well, let's start with pleasure. Let's be a pleasure activist, to use your phrase. And then let's go from there. I almost like want to write that down. I almost want, want to capture that. So I don't know that I have anything. I really want to like poke and prod her on in terms of her life story more. What I want to do is sort of absorb the wisdom and the attitude, and anytime I'm asking myself, should I eat this or should I eat that? I should ask myself, what would Julia Child say? Say. So I'd like to have that conversation with a glass of wine and some kind of, you know, reduction recipe.
- [56:25]
Michelle Dollenberg
Maybe we could get you a little one of those bracelets made that's like wwjcd.
- [56:35]
Michael Osborne
As long as. As long as we're clear on who the JC is in this context. I think it's a great idea. It's a great idea. You know, maybe I will get that bracelet and then if anybody asks about it, I'll say Julia Child. That's what I mean.
- [56:50]
Michelle Dollenberg
That's great.
- [56:52]
Michael Osborne
So, all right. So what did you go with for coffee cocktail? Cannabis.
- [56:55]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, man. I had a really similar reaction. And I started with the glass of wine, but I also don't drink. So in. So I'll paint this picture of the scene here. So we're in her kitchen, just like you were, and she has just shown me how to make a chocolate cake. And it's in the oven and we're having coffee and we're sitting at her table. We. We can smell the cake and there's dishes around because Paul's gonna do em later probably, right. Because he's the assistant. Right. And we're sitting at her table and she's showing me pictures from Paris. And we've got them on the table. Oh, this is this. And this reminds her of this story. And she's just telling me stories. And I. I think what I'm wanting to get out of this is inspiration about love and life. Because I think that's what I need right now. Tell me that I can have. Have this beautiful life. Because, you know, life can feel like a grind sometimes, and I don't want it to feel like a grind. So tell me, contradict the grind for me. Help me, inspire me.
- [57:49]
Michael Osborne
I need reassurance. I need a gratitude list. I need to direct my attention to the things that are available to me that I can experience and that. That bring me joy and pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. So coffee. Coffee and cake.
- [58:03]
Michelle Dollenberg
Coffee and cake.
- [58:04]
Michael Osborne
All right, we've arrived. Final category. The Vanderbilt, named after James Vanderbeek, who famously said in Varsity Blue Blues, I don't want your life. In that Varsity Blues scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on a single characteristic. So here we form a rebuttal. To anybody skeptical of how Julia Child lived, we found it useful to start with a counter argument. Why would you not want this life? There's not a lot of great reasons. I do think the fact that she never had children is an actual regret.
- [58:35]
Michelle Dollenberg
I had that one.
- [58:36]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. But we can make way too much of that and our society is way too judgmental of about this question in general. Why would you not want this life? What else is in the counter argument category? I mean, is there anything strike you about that?
- [58:48]
Michelle Dollenberg
I wrote down a small list of things, but they are all things that I think are survivable. Like, I wrote down I wouldn't want to have had breast cancer and a mastectomy. But people do. People do all the time and they survive. And it's very common. So, I mean, would I choose to have it? No. But that wouldn't keep me from wanting her life. I wouldn't have wanted her uncaring, conservative father, but that wouldn't keep me from wanting her life.
- [59:13]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, yeah. Right now. And it's mostly things that you don't have a choice around.
- [59:16]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, right.
- [59:17]
Michael Osborne
I mean, a lot of the way the counter argument plays out is did you have a say in the first place? And we don't have a say with cancer, and we don't have a say with who our parents are. We don't have a say in a lot of things. So, I mean, it's sort of how you played the cards. And I guess that's actually how I would start with the argument for why you do want this life. She played the hand of life really, really well. She sort of like. Like it's starting off with such the right ideas, patience, an ability to forgive, authenticity, self determination. It really does sound like it was during the war when her eyes were open to the world, when she was spending time with diplomats and academics, and that she began to be attracted to a life of the mind. That she discovered Chinese food was like, it looked like her first love. There is such a journey that involves the sort of companionship of travel and food.
- [60:11]
Michelle Dollenberg
Adventure and adventure.
- [60:13]
Michael Osborne
Yeah.
- [60:13]
Michelle Dollenberg
She's an adventurer. She was this. In this WASPy upbringing. There was this secret adventure trying to get out. And it's not until she goes with the OSF she becomes a spy or.
- [60:24]
Michael Osborne
Tries to become a spy. Yeah.
- [60:25]
Michelle Dollenberg
She works alongside spies and makes shark repellent. She realizes there's this whole world. There's this quote that I didn't read, but I don't have it right in front of me. But it's basically her saying If I had had to live the life that my family wanted, I would have been playing tennis and I would have become an alcoholic.
- [60:41]
Michael Osborne
Yeah, I saw that.
- [60:41]
Michelle Dollenberg
There's nothing for her there.
- [60:43]
Michael Osborne
This is all about self determination.
- [60:45]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [60:45]
Michael Osborne
Reason number one is, is a self determined life. I'd say reason number two, I can't get over the late bloomer thing.
- [60:51]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [60:51]
Michael Osborne
And maybe that's part of the patience. It's such a hopeful message to me that you keep moving in life and following your passions and if it's going to break your way, it may. That can happen at any time. Time. It's such a lesson for me. What else would you put on this list, Michelle? Why else would you want this life?
- [61:09]
Michelle Dollenberg
I was just thinking about this quote. She says, I don't think about whether people will remember me or not. I've been an okay person. I've learned a lot. I've taught people a thing or two. That's what's important. And here's the part of the quote I really like. Sooner or later the public will forget you. The memory of you will fade. What's important is the individuals you've influenced along the way. And so I think she influenced so many people. So I'm going to say she was, was one of the first influencers before Instagram, before all of that. But in many ways she influenced people in terms of, you know, I use this term pleasure activism. That changed the world. She changed the way women thought about themselves. She influenced. We didn't talk about this, but she influenced so many women to become chefs.
- [61:50]
Michael Osborne
Yes. She helped make being a chef and being a cook reputable, like desirable profession. Yeah. In some ways she even destiny stigmatized.
- [61:58]
Michelle Dollenberg
She destigmatizes it. So I guess I would say she has a lasting legacy.
- [62:03]
Michael Osborne
But you know what I also hear in that, that I think is really resonant. It's if you want to keep it, you got to give it away. Like her whole thing of like identifying as a teacher. First and foremost, I'm a teacher. That's why I wound up on pbs. And that is my mission in life. The more you are generous with your gifts and the more you are empowering other people, the more you open up space in your own heart and soul. Soul to like have meaning and joy in your own life.
- [62:27]
Michelle Dollenberg
I love that.
- [62:28]
Michael Osborne
I think the other thing to add in here is Paul.
- [62:30]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah.
- [62:31]
Michael Osborne
You know, like she's, she's got a soul mate. Right. And, and that this looks like it's kind of what we all want on some level. This is love.
- [62:37]
Michelle Dollenberg
She's this deep, inspiring, beautiful love. She had seems to have had wonderful friends and family. It seems like wherever she went, people loved her.
- [62:46]
Michael Osborne
Relational wealth is the term I would use.
- [62:48]
Michelle Dollenberg
Yeah, absolutely.
- [62:50]
Michael Osborne
Okay, so let's recap these arguments. So number one, we eventually got to self determination. Number two, the late bloomer thing. And hope more than anything else, the way hope is at the center of her story. What did you say for number three?
- [63:02]
Michelle Dollenberg
We were talking about how she was a teacher and I said this is she influenced. She was the first influencer, but she influenced such a positive way.
- [63:09]
Michael Osborne
Yeah. And I understand that as generosity as, as an opening up space in your, in your heart and soul. Number four, we also said Paul and.
- [63:17]
Michelle Dollenberg
I think four was Paul, but also all the wonderful relationships that she had.
- [63:21]
Michael Osborne
Paul and relational wealth. Yeah. So with that James Vanderbig, I'm Julia Child and you want my life. All right, plugs for past shows. Michelle, is there a famous and gravy episode that this Julia Child conversation reminds you of?
- [63:42]
Michelle Dollenberg
Well, it made me think of the Shirley Temple black episode and I went back and re listened to it and, and I wouldn't say that it's so much because they're the same story at all. But it's two great women who might surprise you, especially Shirley Temple. You know, we think of her as this little girl, but there's so much more to her. And she also has this service component to her, this activist component to her that I think will surprise people.
- [64:08]
Michael Osborne
We re released that one. That's number 81, dimpled ambassador. I was gonna go with I think Ruth Baderkins. There's something about the late in life, the love story, the kind of unlikely fame and there's some interesting parallels there. So that was episode 20, notorious dissenter Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So if you enjoyed this episode you might enjoy those. Here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. His American born wife was his business partner and on screen co star.
- [64:40]
Michelle Dollenberg
Oh, okay. So this tells me he's not American.
- [64:45]
Michael Osborne
Otherwise I don't know why we would have said that. Famous engraving listeners, we love hearing from you. If you want to reach out with a comment, question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us@helloamousengravy.com in our show notes we include all kinds of links including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and co hosted by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by Ali Arizola with original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks and see you next time.
- [65:19]
Amit Kapoor
Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect for Patty. That friend was Desiree. Until one day I texted her and.
- [65:29]
Michelle Dollenberg
She was not getting the text. So I went to him. Instagram. She has no Instagram anymore. And Facebook. No Facebook anymore.
- [65:36]
Amit Kapoor
Desiree was gone. And there was one person who knew the answer.
- [65:40]
Michael Osborne
I am a spiritual person, a magical person, a witch.
- [65:45]
Amit Kapoor
A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Kat Torres, but who was hiding a secret from Wondery. Based on my smash hit podcast. From Brazil comes a new series, the Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb.
- [66:02]
Michael Osborne
I'm calling to check on the two.
- [66:04]
Michelle Dollenberg
Missing Brazilian girls, maybe get some undercover crew there.
- [66:08]
Michael Osborne
The family are freaking out. They are lost.
- [66:10]
Amit Kapoor
I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.