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- [00:00]
History Daily Host
There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history podcasts@intohristory.com I have. Well, you know, I'll just say I don't really follow sports. I was going to say I have a confession to make, but it's not really a confession, just a fact. A preference. I don't go skydiving either, and that's not a confession. But sometimes admitting you don't like sports, well, that feels a bit more like admitting you don't like television. Or movies. Or puppies. Now, of course, I've watched enough sports to know how the games are played. I think I even understand offsides in both soccer and hockey. But don't ask me player names. Certainly don't expect me to know the coaches. I may not even be aware of entire teams if I'm honest. But that doesn't mean I don't love a good sports story. The movie Hoosiers was fantastic. Rudy the Natural, Bull Durham. All great. I devour drive to survive on Netflix, but I've never once watched an actual F1 race. And I love sports history. Baseball is a fascinating mirror of a changing society and who doesn't love the story of old Teddy Roosevelt meddling in American football? So even though I don't sport much, I am looking forward to bringing you today's Saturday Matinee an episode from the podcast Historically Speaking Sports, which looks back at one of the NBA's brightest and most influential eras and what could have possibly happened to rewrite the history of the game. I hope you enjoy While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow Historically Speaking Sports. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.
- [01:48]
Dana Augusta
Foreign.
- [01:53]
History Daily Host
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- [02:52]
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- [03:16]
Dana Augusta
Maurices this podcast is part of the Sports History Network, your headquarters for the yesteryear of your favorite sport. You can learn more@sportshistorynetwork.com hello once again sports fans and welcome to the podcast that gives you the best of sports from back in the day. And coming to you from the Sports History Network, this is the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast. I'm Dana Augusta along with my co host Charles Combs, and we will go deep in the woods to discuss and possibly debate sports history topics that you didn't know you needed to know. So pull up a chair, sit back and relax and pump up the volume for a dose of sports history info and maybe even a few laughs. So with all that being said, here is the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast, a member of the Sports History Network. Hello sports fans and welcome to this, the latest edition of the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast. I am your host, Dana Augusta, and as long as there have been sports in this country, fans from everywhere have always wondered what could have been. In this episode, I, along with my co host Charles Combs, will discuss three scenarios that would have made the Jordan era of the NBA very, very different and how these teams, instead of the Chicago bulls of the 1990s, would have dominated the decade. That discussion, along with a shout out to the 1986 NBA Draft is coming up after this short break. You are listening to the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast, the place where we give you the best of sports from back in the day right here on the Sports History Network. Ladies and gentlemen, all sports fans, we are back and you're listening to the Historically Speaking Sports Podcast right here on the Sports History Network. I am your host, your co host Dana Augusta, along with Charles Combs. And Charles is joining us once again here on this Sunday night as we're recording. Chuck, how you doing tonight, man?
- [05:40]
Charles Combs
Feeling pretty good. Just like I mentioned before, we just sitting up here just taking some much needed R and R and just ready to rock and roll like always.
- [05:49]
Dana Augusta
Of course, Rocky road as we are. And right now, you know, as you all know, we are in the middle of the NBA playoffs. In fact, last night the Indiana Pacers just punched their ticket to go to the NBA Finals to take on the Oklahoma City Thunder, which was supposed to start this upcoming Thursday. As we're recording this on this Sunday night, but we're going to talk about a little bit of little hypothetical little what ifs. And actually Charles was the one who came up with this idea, came up with this topic. And it is a topic that you have to do with other people, with two very knowledgeable people to kind of bounce ideas off of one another. And I think this is a type of, a perfect type of topic to have both of us talk about since we're both not only NBA fans but NBA historians, but also we grew up in this era. So and I think that the two of us are, you know, kind of come at this from the right direction. So let me introduce like, so Chuck, why don't you tell us what's the, what was the idea that you came up with and how and what brought this on?
- [06:59]
Charles Combs
Just something that I've always wondered. Basically the idea we came up smack dab in the middle of the golden era of the 80s. And then obviously the golden era, the 80s gave way to the Jordan era pretty much. And Jordan is pretty much a consensus that he's the greatest player of all time. And he won a pair, three repeats, six championships in eight years was sandwiched around basically a two year retirement. And I've always wondered now caveat, I don't agree with him being the great the goat. I think Kareem is for me personally, but that's another topic for another day. And I've just always thought about somewhat ifs because early in Jordan's career, before the 90s rolled around, he used to kind of get his butt smacked around a little bit on the regular by, you know, the Celtics and so forth. And then kind of the rise of the Bulls kind of coincided with the decline of the 80s Dynasties, most notably the Celtics and the Lakers. Idea comes into place is that, you know, I feel that with lean bias is a few things that if it would have happened starting with the bias in the Celtics, perhaps their championship window would have been extended. And a couple of other things that may have had a material on the Jordan era in those six championships in eight years. And I always wonder if these things would have took place, which we're going to discuss in a moment. Would he have gotten those six titles?
- [08:36]
Dana Augusta
Yeah. You brought up three scenarios that you brought brought to my attention. And I've always thought that those were very interesting scenarios that you brought up in which we discussed here on this episode here of historically speaking sports. And before we get into that, please, if you haven't done so, please subscribe to the show. And if you have not done so.
- [09:03]
Charles Combs
Already.
- [09:05]
Dana Augusta
Please do that. And as well you could if you have any other story ideas that you may have up floating out there or if you're, you know, just somebody that wants to come on the show with us, hey, you're more than welcome to come on. So you could you can contact us here at Historically speaking sports@history.sports Gmail.com once again at email address historically.speaking.sports Gmail.com and also you could also check us out on Twitter and Instagram and all the social media platforms out there for your daily dose of sports history. So you, like you said, I brought, you had brought up, I should say, three topics or three scenarios. The first scenario was if Lynn Bias and Reggie Lewis had long careers with the Celtics, how history would have been different. Second scenario has everything to do with the Portland Trailblazers in the late 90s, if they would have drafted Arvida Sabonis and he was able to come over to the NBA when he was drafted instead of dealing with the political turmoil that was going on in the Soviet Union and the Eastern bloc countries at the time of the late mid to late 80s. And third, the Houston Rockets, which I've always considered to be that flash in the pan type team that was very good for that one year in 1986, thrown in the Lakers in the conference final, Western conference finals in 86 and then playing facing the Celtics, that dominant Celtic team, in the 19 in 1986, how would that all would have been different if those three, if those things would have like for example, with the Rockets, what if Ralph Sampson never would have gotten hurt that following year in 87, and then the whole drug scandal that rocked the NBA the following year, 1987, that really affected that Rockets team, how all of that would have been different. And that's what we're going to be discussing here on this episode. So we may get into some Debates. We may get into some agreements here. We. Which between you and I, that rarely happens. But anyway. But that's. That's what we. That's what's on deck for us tonight. Let's start off with the Celtics, Okay. Since we, you know, we talked about the 86 Celtics. Let's start there. 1986, the Celtics just won the NBA championship. They had defeated the Houston Rockets. We will talk about later. In six games. And I've always, for whatever reason, I always thought they beat him in five games, but it was actually six games. You had that Celtic team who finished 41 in that regular season, went through the Eastern Conference final, went through the Eastern Conference, you know, went to the finals with, you know, the usual cast of characters. Bird, Paris, Mikhail, Ange, Dennis Johnson. They brought in Bill Walton, you know, they went 41 that regular season at home. They win the NBA title, but believe it or not, the very next year, they have the number two pick in the draft. Okay. Which they use to select Lynn Bias. Now you wondering, okay, how in the world did they get the number two pick the year after they won the title, like a couple months after winning the title as a number two pick overall? Well, I'm gonna tell you, it was the wizardry of Red R Back. That's how it happened. They traded away Gerald Henderson to the Seattle Sonics, the Sonics for the Sonics. Number one pick that ended up that year. The Sonics had a horrible season. They had the number two pick in the draft, which belonged to the Boston Celtics. And with that, they chose Lynn Bias.
- [13:17]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [13:18]
Dana Augusta
Wow.
- [13:19]
Charles Combs
I mean, just the. The. Before we get into this, just the brilliance of Red R Back. I mean, he just always would find a loophole. Like, for example, the dude drafted Larry Bird a year early.
- [13:32]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:34]
Charles Combs
They were like, why are you going to spend your. Your draft pick on somebody that can't even play this year?
- [13:40]
Dana Augusta
He like, right, exactly.
- [13:41]
Charles Combs
You know how short a year is, man.
- [13:43]
Dana Augusta
Exactly. That's. That was a quote. Do you have any idea how short a time a year is?
- [13:48]
Charles Combs
Drafted him a year early. Then, you know, they fleeced them with the draft. That didn't. Wasn't Kevin McHale involved with that business with. I know Parish and Mikhail were involved with the Golden State thing.
- [14:02]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, they traded. Yeah, yeah. Joe Barry Carroll, and I forgot how exactly that worked out, but it was Danny Ainge and Robert Parrish who was with the Golden. Who was with the glorious State. Golden State Warriors. They made it traffic out all the particulars of the trade, but they get those Two in one deal. Okay. They. I think it was. I think they traded Joe Barry Carroll to the warriors to get for Paris. And. And the draft pick. And that draft pick ended up being Kevin McHale.
- [14:38]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [14:40]
Dana Augusta
I mean, highway robbery, basically. Whatever happened to Joe Bear Carroll? I mean, I. I remember Joe Bear Carroll when he was with Purdue. I remember that. But that's the last time anybody heard of him.
- [14:54]
Charles Combs
Golden State was Siberia in those days. Exactly.
- [14:57]
Dana Augusta
You know, the only. The only person that you knew of from Golden State was the coach, Al Adams. That was it, you know.
- [15:04]
Charles Combs
Correct.
- [15:04]
Dana Augusta
That was it, you know, long gone. With Rick Barry and Keith Wilkes and that Clifford Ray and that group. Long. They were long gone, you know, so it was one of those things, man, that. That Red Auerbach once again showed his wizardry, and here it is in 86, he does the same thing. Okay. And then you have the tragic circumstances of Lynn Bias. You know, Bird was MVP in 86. Okay. Bias was the second pick in the NBA draft. He died of cardiac arrhythmia induced by a cocaine overdose. Okay. Now, they kind of reeled from that, but they still reached the finals in 87. Okay. Losing to the Lakers in six games.
- [15:51]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [15:53]
Dana Augusta
So that. So that off season, they draft a kid named Reggie Lewis. Now. Do it now. I remember Reggie Lewis, but I wanted to get into, like, a little bit of history with him. Then this I didn't know. Went to Dunbar High School in Baltimore, which is. Right. Kind of like in your neck of the woods.
- [16:16]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [16:18]
Dana Augusta
You know who his high school teammates were? Mugsy Boats, Mugsy Bones, Reggie Williams and David Wingate.
- [16:26]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [16:28]
Dana Augusta
I mean, if you. If you are basketball junkies like you and I are, that's a really. That's. That must have been an awesome, awesome high school basketball team. So awesome. In fact, in Reggie Lewis's junior year, Dunbar went 29 0. That was his junior year. His senior year, they go 31 0. So in two years, they go 500 in two years, and they're the number one team in the country in 1983. So that's. That's. That's crazy. You know, Now, I went to a high school in Louisiana that was known for basketball. The highest we ever got in the USA Today top 25 nationally, I think, was number 20. We never won state because we always lost a team from New Orleans, you know, but we always lost a team like. We always lost to, like, Saint Aug or Jesuit or somebody like that, you know? But anyway, in 1987, Reggie Lewis, with the 22nd overall pick by the Celtics. Okay, he didn't really play much his first year, but the second year on the new head coach Jimmy Rogers average 30 minutes and average 18 and a half points per game in the 1990, 1991, had a career high against Miami with 42 points. But then on April 29, 1993, in game one of the Eastern Conference first round against the Charlotte Hornets, he collapsed and he ended up passing away like about a month later. I believe it was, you know, actually a couple, couple of months later, July 27, 1993, he passed away playing, you know, working out at Brandeis University, suffering a cardiac arrest. He was only 27 years old. Now, in your opinion, if you would have had Lynn Baez and Reggie Lewis together, what do you think the Celtics main strengths would have been? In your opinion?
- [18:43]
Charles Combs
Think the main strengths would have been, you know, despite how good they were throughout the Mikhail Parish and Mikhail era, they were predominantly an inside team, although Ainge, Scott Whitman and Bird obviously could give you some outside shooting. But they were, if you got them in the open court, even though they were a running team. But if they tried to run against certain teams, most notably the Showtime Lakers, they were at a significant disadvantage. And then later in the era that was kind of like a similar problem with Isaiah and the Pistons, Chuck Daly and those guys as well. That would have been one of the main, that would have shored up a key weakness in terms of foot speed, athleticism that would have enabled them to play more up and more up and down, first of all. And then also we know with limb bias, he's pretty good defensive player. Now you're not going to stop Big game James, but they gave him another option to kind of at least combat him. You know, give, give big, give somebody that could give Big game James some problems defensively, but then also offensively from an, from a, from an athleticism standpoint, because obviously Kevin McHale is a full load, you know, torture chamber down low. But you know, in terms of making James work on the perimeter sometimes, you know, especially with the addition of Michael Thompson, that was specifically to help combat Kevin McHale, to absolve worthy of that responsibility. So I think that would have been a strength. It would allow them to play more up, they would have allowed them to play more up and down, give them some much needed athleticism, and also give them a guy that could play three and four in terms of Reggie Lewis and give you some, some rebounding, possibly even some shot blocking. And then also Reggie Lewis could probably guard twos and threes too. The kind of help on Magic as well.
- [20:48]
Dana Augusta
Well, they would have gotten, no doubt about it. They would have gotten like a one fell swoop. Way more athletic. Yes, they would have been way more athletic than what they were. This is a team that was, you know, that could run if they really wanted to, but that was not really there. Forte, they were more of a half court type of team. With the addition of Reggie Lewis and the addition of Liam Baez, they definitely would have been able to run the floor more effectively. They would have, you know, it would have made them considerably younger. That's for one thing. It would have made them considerably younger. But as far as them being more athletic, that definitely. Which is something that they really needed because by the time the late 80s came around in 89, Bird missed most of the season, if you remember.
- [21:42]
Charles Combs
Correct. Six games.
- [21:44]
Dana Augusta
Yeah. Birdman's most of the season in 87. In 89. So if you would have had Bias, Reggie Lewis and then you had other guys that would. That was coming up, you know, you had the younger guys that were fading away. Danny ain't was traded in the late 80s, early 90s. I remember you going. He went to Portland, which we'll talk about later. He ends up going to Portland. Dennis Johnson is a little bit older, you know, and you start to have new guys come in. Kenny Gamble, I think was. Was part of that. Then you had Ed Pinkney to be running with them. So I think a lot of people think that Bird would have played a little bit longer, which is possible. Mikhail would have played a little longer because they wouldn't have been as long in the tooth, so to speak, with Mikhail. With, you know, with Mikhail there, he would, you know, Bias and Lewis would have been able to spell some of those older guys some time while they figured them things out. But I don't think right away they would have been able to contend with the up and coming Pistons at least.
- [23:01]
Charles Combs
Right.
- [23:02]
Dana Augusta
At least in the beginning, you know, because they. Because the Celtics had lost to the Pistons in 88 in the 88 Eastern finals. I don't think they would have been able to deal with that Pistons team at least then. But with the experience and everything. 90, 91, maybe. Well, 90, 91, they probably would have been back in the finals in my opinion. Now would they have been able to win it all? Who knows? But in my opinion, with that team and with that, with that team together and the experience that they had, they might have made the finals. I think might. But you know, they wouldn't have been able to get past the Pistons in 88.
- [23:46]
Charles Combs
I agree with that wholeheartedly. And then you also got to remember that, you know, in addition to 88, they were, they, they were dead. Pistons had him dead the rights in 87.
- [24:00]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [24:00]
Charles Combs
When Isaiah, you know, bird steals the volume, the marvel Neil classic call and you know, then, you know, dj, the DJ Lay literally steal game five. You know, literally still game five. Because they would have lost that year because the Pistons basically had the game sign sealed and delivered to go up 3, 2, going back to the Pontiac in Game 6 to close the series out.
- [24:25]
Dana Augusta
So now here's something else to consider too. And I just thought about this. In 88, do you remember who the Celtics played the series before and what happened?
- [24:41]
Charles Combs
They played the Hawk. They played the Doc Rivers. Yeah, Doc Rivers went Doc Rivers on us, you know. You know, even as a player they was up 3, 2 going back to Atlanta and they somehow some way couldn't close the deal. And then they went back in seven and they were cooked.
- [24:58]
Dana Augusta
You know, you know, that was the famous game seven. That was that famous Bird versus Dominique.
- [25:04]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [25:05]
Dana Augusta
Duel. Do you think that would have happened? Because to be honest, Kevin McHale would they had Kevin McHale guarding Dominique. Do you think it would have been different had it been Lynn Bias guarding?
- [25:21]
Charles Combs
I totally agree with your assessment a few moments ago that in terms of Liam bias arrival in 86 and Reggie Lewis in 87, it wouldn't have had a material impact from a frontline standpoint like 87 in 88. I think what would have happened still would have happened there because you know, they would have been pups went around the ears and you're not gonna just, you know, they would have gotten minutes. They would have helped more. So from a standpoint of athleticism and depth, you know, like to your point, instead of playing Darren Day and remember his name, Brad Morehouse.
- [26:05]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, of course.
- [26:08]
Charles Combs
Patreon Roberts.
- [26:12]
Dana Augusta
You talk about stiff. That was a stiff Red Roberts boom.
- [26:17]
Charles Combs
You know what I mean? Instead of them, they would have helped give them more depth, more athleticism, more bench production and kind of would have lessened the burden of a bit from Bird, Harrison, McHale carrying the, carrying the load all the time. But in terms of a material impact, like you know, a rookie, you know a rookie or a second year play on Dominique in game seven. That's when, that's when Dominique still had the S curl flat top. No, Casey Jones is not that stupid. He wouldn't have done that because. Right. You know, he's far too inexperienced to have combated Dominique in at that Time. And then with those stakes, you know, that's how you lose a series. No, so I don't think it would have had a material impact at that time.
- [27:03]
Dana Augusta
Okay. You know, another person that was on the 88, 89 team that was. And he was a rookie then who had a very long NBA career that, that I have to mention is Brian Shaw.
- [27:16]
Charles Combs
I mean, not to be a jerk, but your point is.
- [27:23]
Dana Augusta
I just thought it was, I just brought it up because I thought it was interesting, that's all. I'm not trying to make any kind of grand pronouncements or anything. I just thought it was interesting. Interesting.
- [27:34]
Charles Combs
You know, like in terms of, you know, perhaps he would have put gas in the car or wash the windshield, but that's about it. You're not going to count. And he was a solid player, a smart player and all of that. And he was a player that, you know, especially later in his career as a veteran was essential, you know, especially with those Laker teams. But at that time, you know, he, he, he didn't really move the needle, you know, maybe, you know, whatever. You can have Sam Vincent too, you know.
- [28:06]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, right. Yeah. But one thing, another thing is that I want to touch on is, is that not only you had to deal with the Eastern Conference would have been like crazy loaded. You know, you had the Celtics, you had to, you had the, the Pistons, who was on, you know, who is up there. Then you had the up and coming Chicago, bu. You know, which we all know what they did later on. And I think it would have been interesting to see what kind of matchups they would have had between the Bulls and the Celtics with a. Reggie Lewis with a, With Lynn Bias, you know, because for those of you who don't really know, I don't really remember Lynn Bias, he kind. I mean, it's hard for me to do. If you had to compare Lynn Bias to somebody now, who would it be? You think?
- [29:03]
Charles Combs
Oh, look at that.
- [29:05]
Dana Augusta
I think, I think, I think LeBron, since they played the same position at the same height. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's like LeBron, you know, LeBron's just a special case. But as far as just, you know, somebody that you think that is most like, like, like a limb bias. I'm, I'm tempted to say, from what I remember of him, I'm tempted to say Kevin Durant, I'm tempted to say that, you know, but he didn't have the height as Kevin Durant, but he had the athleticism and the outside shot. And the one thing that he had that Kevin Durant didn't have was just the interior toughness, the. The rebounding toughness. You know, he was a tenacious rebound. He was 6, 8, 69 from Maryland, played in the ACC. You know, he was, I think, the ACC player the year 1986. So it was, you know, and he was like the. The last great Maryland player during the Lefty Drazelle era in Maryland. So, I mean, it was, you know, it was like. It was. He was so athletic for his size, and he was somewhat of a, I guess you can say, quote, unquote, freak athletically for whatever you could call that in the mid-1980s. You know, he was that, in my opinion.
- [30:33]
Charles Combs
Because he was. You really couldn't pencil him. Because the hard part is you never really got to saw him with his game fully developed.
- [30:45]
Dana Augusta
Right. He was still kind of raw. He was this college player who was raw.
- [30:50]
Charles Combs
So from what I saw of him, because I still remember I woke up, we had just gotten out of school, and I woke up one morning. I want to say it was like the. It was like the summer after fifth grade. I remember I woke up and he was just everywhere that he had passed.
- [31:06]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [31:07]
Charles Combs
And, you know, and it was like, you know, you would hear people would say, he passed, he passed, he passed. In those days, you know, if the story happened too late, it wouldn't be in the paper to the next day. Right. And it wasn't. The news cycles weren't like you could find out instantly now. But anyway, on to your question. At that time, he was kind of like, weird because he had some elements of James Worthy around the basket and ability to finish. To your point, he had some abilities of Kevin Durant with the outside shot. Not quite the handle at that point.
- [31:39]
Dana Augusta
Right.
- [31:39]
Charles Combs
But I think under the tute of Bird, Mikhail, Red R back. I think Casey. Casey Jones, he would have stayed. He wouldn't have left had he not died. You know, I mean, I think he would have stayed on, obviously. I don't think. I think he has some elements of Sean. I saw some Sean Kemp. Not quite as big as Sean Kemp. No, but some. Some elements of Sean Camp.
- [32:01]
Dana Augusta
That's a good one. That's a good one right there.
- [32:03]
Charles Combs
And then also some elements of. Of some Tracy. Some Tracy McGrady elements.
- [32:09]
Dana Augusta
Right, right, right.
- [32:10]
Charles Combs
He was like a combination of, like he would. I felt he'd have been a combination of like Tracy McGrady, Sean Kemp, James Worthy. Because to your point about Kevin Durant, Even though he had a bias, had an outside shot at that point, he wasn't as fluid and comfortable in the, you know, he could dribble and stuff, but not like KD could. But conversely, he was much stronger on the boards and much, much stronger back to the basket. And then, you know, he would have been a guy that would have been too fast for fours, too big for threes. Like, you know, you, you try to put a four on him.
- [32:48]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, he was, he was a miss. He was a walking mismatch for any kind of defense at the time of the NBA during the late 80s. He was a walking mismatch because just like you said, he was too big for your typical three to guard him, a typical small forward to guard. He was just too big. Okay, but you couldn't, you could put a four, a power forward on it because power forwards back then were basically known for rebounding and inside play. You know, there wasn't like stepping out behind the arc or stepping out from 15 or 18ft out and just draining just open mid range jump shots, which Lynn Bias was very adept of doing. You know, he did that at Maryland, like with ease. You step out, you know, toward like maybe 18, 20ft away and just drop jump shots on you all day long. And then whenever somebody tried to come and check him, guard him on the outside, he could just easily put it on the floor and drive right by you, you know, and that was something brand new in the late 80s that you never really saw before. Another player that I really thought of that kind of reminded me of him in a way that we saw later in college basketball is Chris Weber when he was at Michigan.
- [33:59]
Charles Combs
Yeah, I agree with that. Much more explosive than Chris was. Yeah, much more explosive and much smarter in key moments than Chris now.
- [34:11]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know. I saw that in person.
- [34:16]
History Daily Host
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- [35:22]
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- [35:52]
Charles Combs
And to your point about matchups immediately, like you said, that was kind of like a new combination immediately coming to mind. The only defender that would have been able to match up with him would have been Detroit Pistons Dennis Rodman.
- [36:10]
Dana Augusta
Right.
- [36:10]
Charles Combs
Because he had the ability to, you know, you could switch him out on twos and threes. He could move his feet laterally and really guard the dribble really well. But then at the same time he could hold, he could hold his own on the boards obviously and also in post defense as well. He, he kind of had the all around elements at that time. Defensive guy other than that, you know, like your Michael Coopers, they could go at the perimeter really well. Couldn't put him on bias. Way too strong, you know.
- [36:35]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [36:37]
Charles Combs
And other guys, you know, they like a John Sally, for instance, be a lame beer type. He's just going to bring him out the 17, 18ft and face and face him up and pull that jumper or put that, put that around again, put.
- [36:50]
Dana Augusta
It on the floor and go right past him. Correct. Now with this Celtic team, with him and Reggie Lewis together now, we talked just a lot about lame bias. Let's give little shout out to Reggie Lewis. Reggie Lewis was a, was basically a two guard. Okay. He was a two guard. They put him at point for he could play the point, but he was more comfortable as a two even or maybe even a three. You know, if I had to compare him to somebody, from what I remember, and this is getting a little bit more nowadays, it's a little bit more contemporary. He kind of reminds me of Tyrese Halliburton. If you really. He reminds me a lot of Tyrese Halliburton. And you talk about recency bias. I'm guilty of that right here. He's a. He was a guard that was a great shooter, could put it on the floor. He wasn't like a explosive dunker or anything like that, but he was just one of these professional scorers. That's what I would call. He was a professional scorer, somebody that could put it on the floor. He's one of those guys that if you watch him play in the third quarter, the announcer says, Reggie Lewis, that is point number 24 for him. And you're like, when did he score 24 points? Is it like a quiet scorer? You know?
- [38:16]
Charles Combs
Correct.
- [38:16]
Dana Augusta
And, you know, he's kind of like a Tyrese Halliburton, like another person that come to mind. When I think of him as Michael Reddit from. From the Milwaukee Bucks in the early 2000s, that's what he kind of reminds me of.
- [38:28]
Charles Combs
Correct. He always gave me elements of. He always kind of reminded me of a better version of Alan Houston.
- [38:39]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [38:39]
Charles Combs
Okay. He was like a. Like. Like a two guard that. On defense, he could guard twos and threes. As you noted before, he wasn't the most explosive player, but he wasn't a terrible. He wasn't a terrible athlete either. He could defend two positions. He was also a guy. He was kind of like a. To me, like a combination of Alan Houston in the original point forward. Paul Press it. You know, he was kind of like.
- [39:04]
Dana Augusta
A combination that's a blast from the past.
- [39:08]
Charles Combs
He was kind of like a combination of those two guys where, you know, he had a better. He had a better handle. And Alan Houston probably could. Was a slightly better peer shooter. Slightly. But in terms of handles and. And able to score efficiently. And then as far as. As far as being able to create offense for others and make the people around him better, he was light years ahead of Alan Houston in that regard. And that. That's where the Paul Pressy reference comes in at. Because he had those Paul Pressy elements in terms of. From a defense as well as a playmaking for his supporting cast. Standpoint.
- [39:50]
Dana Augusta
Right. Do you. Let me ask you this, okay. The other elephant in the room is the Chicago Bulls. How would you think with them matching up with the O with the Bulls of the early. And I'm not talking about the late 90s. We're talking about the early 90s with BJ Armstrong and John Paxton. How would they. That Celtic team with. Armed with bias and Reggie Lewis, how you think they would have been able to match up with those guys?
- [40:22]
Charles Combs
To your point, as in 1987, 88 up in there, the Pistons, that would have been a bit too early, starting about 91, 92 up in there. That would have really been the sweet spot for those guys, you know what I mean? And I think, I think they would have really given the Bulls a hard time. I mean really, they probably, you know, you know, it would have been quite interesting. It would have been probably seven game series. And even if Jordan gets by, you know, he kind of would have faced the similar fate that Bird and Doc used to face in the early 80s, you know what I mean? You know, after they get through, they have the battle. They would have the battle. Teams like the Milwaukee Bucks in the, in that semifinal round and then they tear each other to shreds in the conference finals and then whatever is what's left of them, they drag out to the west coast for the Lakers, who've been sitting up chilling. Yes, you know what I mean?
- [41:23]
Dana Augusta
You know, playing pretty much playing whoever, you know. You know, you know, and that's, and that's the way the east was. I mean, like, you know, I mean, they can look back at the early 90s, 90, 91 in the eastern Conference. You, you would have had the Celtics, let's just put them in there just for the sake of argument, okay? With Bias and Reggie Lewis. Then you would have had the Chicago Bulls, the up and coming Chicago young Chicago Bulls. Michael Jordan, Scotty, Pippen, John Paxton, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant. You know, then you would have had the up and coming New York Knicks with Patrick Ewing, you know, and his crew. You know, I, I, I, I, I'm afraid to mention his name because it may dry ir, but Charles Smith.
- [42:11]
Charles Combs
Oh God, that freaking dude, man. You know what I mean? But my thing is they would, they would have certainly, to me not to cut you off, they certainly would have been better than the Knicks, for sure. Yeah, you know, for sure, because they just had too many, the Knicks had too many deficiencies and hit too many scoring droughts.
- [42:29]
Dana Augusta
Right. Another team is the Cleveland Cavaliers. Brad Daugherty, Mark Price, Craig Elo, Larry Nance, John Hot Rod Williams, Gerald Wilkins. That was another team that I think would have been, you know, that really made the east deep back in the early mid tonight, you know, coached by Lenny Wilkins. You know, that is another team that made the Easter conference race really deep and people. And I think that that team has been lost to history of how good that Cleveland Cavaliers team really was.
- [43:01]
Charles Combs
Yeah, they were, they were really good. But they would always, Lenny Wilkins would just always make the most absurd Calls at the worst times because, you know, I still remember vividly remember Ron Harper saying that when they, when their final play in game five, you know, the iconic. When Jordan hung in the alba Craig elo to bang it and seal it in game five, when he said as soon as Lenny Wilkins was like, he wanted to guard Jordan for that final possession, when he was like, well, now we're going to put elo on him, he was like, game is over. In his head he was already like, the game is already over. It would have been quite interesting with the Celtics had certainly beaten the Bulls. I'm not sure about that because it would have depended on, I think, Lynn Bias. It would have depended on then Bias's ceiling because like in, in, in college, he was every bit of Jordan's equal. Yeah, but nobody, nobody, even the most ardent Tar Heel fan foresaw with Jordan. No, nobody thought everybody knew Jordan would be good. Right. But nobody foresaw what he wound up doing. Nobody saw that coming. Nobody.
- [44:23]
Dana Augusta
I mean, I mean, who could have. I mean, when he first joined the Bulls, he was Mike Jordan instead of Mike. He was Mike Jordan.
- [44:31]
Charles Combs
Yeah. And to even put it worse than this, at the end of the games at first, this a blast from the past. He was, he was deferring to the fake big old Orlando Warriors. You know, Orlando warriors was a baller though. But you can' got a big old like he Oscar Robinson or somebody. You know what I mean? So it wasn't depending on limb biases, ceiling, a combination of that as well as how much tread Bird, Parish and Mikhail would have had. My hypothesis was always that it would have extended the window. It would have extended the effectiveness of Bird, Parish, Mikhail. Because you just, just look at it. I did a little research, right?
- [45:15]
Dana Augusta
Okay.
- [45:16]
Charles Combs
In 87 they lost to the Lakers, obviously. In 88 they lost in six to the, to the Pistons. 1989, Jimmy Rogers first year. I'm presuming if Lynn Bias lived, Casey Jones wouldn't have went to the supersonics. He would have stayed with the Celtics. Right. So they got swept by the, they got swept by the pistons in the first round. Bird only played six games a year. Yeah, and Reggie Lewis average 18 and a half. 1990, they lost in five to Stu Jackson, Patrick Ewan and the Knicks with Maury's cheeks at point guard. I mean Maury's cheeks, not mo cheeks. I mean ancient Maury's cheeks. That's a fireable offense. But Bird and Mikhail, they went 52 and 30. They. Bird and Mikhail each averaged over 20 parish average 15 and Lewis average 17. And the kicker is this right? 1991, they went 56 and 26. Now at this point, Bird had the bad back, he had the double heel surgery. Kevin McHale, he never quite recovered from the ankle, the foot problems. In 88, they went 56 and 26, lost to the Pistons in the conference semites. In six, they took, they took the two time defending world champions six in the conference semis. And Bird averaged 19, Lewis averaged 17, Mikhail average 18. And Robert Parish at age 37 average 15 and 11. So I'm thinking you, you have bias still in there. These are pretty effective numbers. They would have been even more effective because they wouldn't have had to. They wouldn't have had as much burden nor responsibility. Which is my, my hypothesis would have been they would have been pretty formidable for the Bulls. Would it, Would it have been a certainty? Absolutely not. Because, you know, Air Jordan, especially when he had hair on his head. God damn. You know, you're right. He had hair on his head, man. That dude. You know what I mean? You know, and you know me, I don't like Jordan at all. But I, I, you gotta get, you.
- [47:33]
Dana Augusta
Gotta, you gotta, you gotta defer, bruh. You have to defer. You have to defer to him. You know, you have to. Especially with Jordan with hair on his head.
- [47:43]
Charles Combs
They would have gave him a pretty good darn run.
- [47:46]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [47:46]
Charles Combs
You know what I mean? Because, you know, they definitely would have still had. Between the, the, the trio of Bird, Parish and Mikhail, as well as Casey Jones, who I would assume would have still been there.
- [47:59]
Dana Augusta
Right.
- [47:59]
Charles Combs
They certainly would have had the, the edge and experience for sure.
- [48:03]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [48:03]
Charles Combs
You know, and, you know, and it would have been pretty formidable. And I think it would have came down to probably a. As long as the Celtics don't blow a game that they were supposed to win or they had in the back, which they typically did not do. They never really beat themselves a lot. I think it would have came down to seven games and they probably would have gotten by at least once. They'd have gotten by them probably once.
- [48:31]
Dana Augusta
Yeah. You know, and then plus playing home playoff games in the Garden, which is probably another five points in their favor every now and then, you know, paying the left a little leprechaun down in the basement, a few shekels, you know, the winds are getting gains or whatever.
- [48:46]
Charles Combs
You know, and then also red with a. In in late May. In late May when it starts to get hot in Boston. The, the Garden that used to have any AC or anything but already crack up the heat. He had turned the heat on and crank up the heat.
- [49:08]
Dana Augusta
That's right. That's right. You know. You know, for whatever reason that it just so happens that the windows don't, you know, they couldn't put the windows up in the room or something like that, you know, but it was always something. It was always something with red, you.
- [49:22]
Charles Combs
Know, but before you mow it, I think it would have affected them because even had they gotten through the series with Boston, you know, they would, they would have gotten through the series with Boston. What would always benefit them was once they played the Western champion, you know, it will kind of be. They weren't as rough as tough and tumble. All right. And all of that or they never were extended to seven games in the conference finals. So these would have been seven. They would have. They would have had to come in with some nicks and bruises, which would have possibly made them ripe for the picking for the next team we're going to talk about.
- [50:01]
Dana Augusta
Right, exactly. And I was just about to mention that the number, number two scenario. What if Arvida Sabonis from Lithuania would have came to the Blazers in 86 instead of waiting over a decade to join them after two knee surgeries and gaining like 30 pounds, you know, to play for the Blazers. What if he would have joined the Blazers in 1986 and they also in that draft was a young man from Croatia named Drazin Petrovic. What we could have seen from that squad in the late, in the late 80s and early 90s, teaming up with Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter and Jerome Kersey. What we could have seen from that squad.
- [50:52]
Charles Combs
Well, first of all, we wouldn't have seen Jerome Kersey had I been the coach, you know. But. Okay, but I'm just saying, like in terms of. You just think about it. From, from 89 to 93, Portland average 57 and a half wins.
- [51:12]
Dana Augusta
Okay.
- [51:12]
Charles Combs
From 80. And this is with, you know, they had in the three year period they lost. They lost to the Lakers in the conference finals in 1990, which was, I.
- [51:22]
Dana Augusta
Think their best team. Which was their best team.
- [51:25]
Charles Combs
Correct. They won like 63 games that year.
- [51:27]
Dana Augusta
63 games in 1990. 91. He was. They went 63 and 19 in 1990 when they went to the NBA Finals, they went 59 and 23 in 1990 and in 92 when he lost to the Bulls, they were 57 and 25. But that 1991 team, 1990, when they went 63 and 19. And I will never forgive Cliff Robinson for blowing Adlay up against the Lakers. I will never blame, I will never absolve him of that sin. Because they was on a fast break late in the game and it would have given to Portland the lead and he blew a wide open layup. And the Lakers went down, scored again, got the lead back and they never recovered.
- [52:09]
Charles Combs
And you still remember the image of Magic threw the ball down the court as the help as the time expired. Liv Robinson in the background looking at what happened. What the hell you mean what happened? You. You blew the, you blew the layup. But I think that loss was two finals appearances and losses were sandwiched around that. You have to think about this right? From I'm a back into this, right? He didn't appear for a decade. He didn't come to Portland until age 31. Two knee surgeries and an Achilles tear later.
- [52:45]
Dana Augusta
Wow. Yeah.
- [52:46]
Charles Combs
You know, the man, first year, age 31, he averaged 14 and he averaged 14 and 8 the first year, second year and one block, you know, then second year, 13, 13 and 8. Third year, age 33, the man averaged 16 and 10, you know, age 34, the band averaged third. I mean 12 and 8. Now the man is washed up. Clearly passed his best and. And put. Put up those numbers. Now let's transpose these against Duckworth numbers during from 89 to 93. Duckworth 89. They lost to the Pistons in the finals. He was good for 16 and 6. Pretty good. But old, washed up. Old, washed up Sabonus, that's comparable. Even him washed up is giving you Duckworth production. 1990, Duckworth was just what, in his third year?
- [53:46]
Dana Augusta
Second, third, third, fourth year in the.
- [53:48]
Charles Combs
League, you know, one most improved player. But a lot of times in order to be improved, you had to been bad at some point, right? You know, whatever.
- [53:57]
Dana Augusta
Right.
- [53:58]
Charles Combs
Not, not that hate on the man. But I'm don't speak il of the dead. 91, when they lost to the Bulls, he averaged 10.7 points and six rebounds a game. And then 92, he averaged 95. Now, in none of these seasons did he average over a block a game. He was never a shot blocker.
- [54:15]
Dana Augusta
No, he wasn't.
- [54:16]
Charles Combs
All of these years, Sabonis was washed up. He gave you comparable product, even better production. And he was able. He wasn't a turnover machine. And he could. And he, he could give you a block of games. So imagine if Sabonus, as we mentioned a couple of years ago when we were Talking about the NBA top 75 discussion, he's the man that's like, like all of the dream teams, all of the stuff putting people put, putting, putting, putting people to bed in the Olympics, in the gold medal game, all of the. Kobe closed out the Olympics. All of that. Why is all of that happening? Sabonus is the genesis of all of those things.
- [54:56]
Dana Augusta
Exactly.
- [54:57]
Charles Combs
He's the genesis of all of that. So imagine if you take off, if you take off, Duckworth put Sabonis on the Bulls in 92. They beat Portland in six. But if you remember game six in Chicago Stadium, they needed Phil Jackson put the scrubs in because the Blazers were out like 15 going into the fourth in the, in the combination of Bobby Hansen, Scott Williams, Stacy Key, they made a run to get them back in distance because, you know, Rick Adamant is going to do Rick Adam and stuff, right? Yeah, you. I mean, and then that guy Jordan. Jordan got his mojo and then brought it home. So imagine they should have went seven with Portland that year had they not blown game six with Duck work right now.
- [55:44]
Dana Augusta
And Duckworth's defense. Okay, now you're talking to somebody who was a Portland Trailblazer fan during that time. Because my all time, you know, all my all time favorite players, Clyde Drexler has always been Clyde Drexler of all time favorite player. Kevin Duckworth was not drafted by the Blazers. He came to the Blazers in the middle of the 1986 season. He was drafted by the. By the San Antonio Spurs.
- [56:11]
Charles Combs
By the Spurs.
- [56:12]
Dana Augusta
He was drafted by the spurs but came over middle of the season for. I forgot the, the starting center was Kenny Carr. That was the starting center for the, you know, for the, for the Portland Trailblazers under head coach Mike Schuler. If Sabonas was there, Duckworth would never. Would have been a Blazer. Never. I could not imagine them still making a deal to get Kevin Duckworth. Now, can you imagine this starting five? This would have been like in 90. In the 1990 series. Terry Porter at point, who is one of the most underrated point guards ever. You know, Clyde Drexler, one of the greatest players of all time. Then you would have had. At center, you would have had Sabonis, okay? Then you would have had Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams. And then you would have had guys like Drozen Petrovich, which we'll get into in a second because that's absolutely criminal. You said yourself a few minutes ago that Rick Adelman was going to do Rick Adelman things, and he did with Dren Petrovich, okay? You had other guys. Walter Barry was on that team. You had Other guys, Clifford Robertson, who we talked about just a bit. You had Wayne Cooper at center, which was another stiff, but good backup though.
- [57:45]
Charles Combs
He was a good backup.
- [57:47]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, you know, he was, he was kind of a stiff, but he was decent, you know. You know he was.
- [57:54]
Charles Combs
He laid wood though.
- [57:58]
Dana Augusta
You know. But yeah, that was the, that was the 90 trailblazers. And you know, Buck Williams that came over from New Jersey, you know, which was one of the, one of the most under underrated free agency pickups. I think it was, you know, I think it was a free agent, if I'm not mistaken.
- [58:14]
Charles Combs
He was. And he was, he was a little past his best in terms of his ability, but he fit right in with that team.
- [58:21]
Dana Augusta
He was. He fit right in with what he could do with that squad.
- [58:24]
Charles Combs
Hard hat. Yes, sir. Certified hard hat.
- [58:26]
Dana Augusta
Yes, right, exactly. So for those who though, if you had to compare, and I like to do this, you know, compare and contrast between today's players in a player that we're talking about. When I see our Vita Sabona, I'm talking about the young Arvida Sabonis when he was at Lithuania and played on the Russian national team.
- [58:49]
Charles Combs
I know where you're going. Slide right in.
- [58:52]
Dana Augusta
Go ahead.
- [58:52]
Charles Combs
Who you think he's Jokic on steroids?
- [58:55]
Dana Augusta
Thank you, thank you.
- [58:58]
Charles Combs
He's basically an athletic. He's basically an athletic shot blocking finish around the rim. You know, physical freak version. He had all the skills. He had all of the skills that Jokic had, but he had like.
- [59:19]
Dana Augusta
He was athletic. He was athletic.
- [59:22]
Charles Combs
Yeah, Shaq size, Shaq athleticism, but could do everything that Jokic could do.
- [59:28]
Dana Augusta
And at Dirk Nowitzki shot. Correct Ed Dirk. Now fade away. Jump shot. This dude was a walking cheat code in the 1980s. And just like you said, he was the reason why the Dream Team came about. He was the reason because that Russian national team with him on, along with Saruna's Marcelonus, you know. Exactly, exactly. For those of you who don't know. So Runa's Marshall onus is. It was. Was a Russian version of John Stockton, you know, that could shoot. He was a Russian John Stockton.
- [60:12]
Charles Combs
And another thing. Oh, not to cut you off to give the man his flowers. He is the originator of the Euro Step.
- [60:21]
Dana Augusta
Yep, the original. Exactly. He was the one who started it. He was the one who started it.
- [60:26]
Charles Combs
He's the originator of the Euro Step.
- [60:30]
Dana Augusta
See, you learn stuff every day on this show, folks. You really do.
- [60:36]
Charles Combs
He's the originator. Yes.
- [60:38]
Dana Augusta
You know that, that Russian national team that just dismantled the USA Olympic team in 1988. That was, you know, that was the creation of the Dream Team. Because they realized with that team that, that the Europe, that European basketball had indeed caught up. They didn't caught up, they caught up. You know, in all of these years of USA Basketball and stuff like that, sending college kids to play against grown men, this, us, this, this Russian national team in 1988 was all grown ass men, period. They were grown men playing in this game. And with Sabonus, Sabonas was what, seven, three.
- [61:23]
Charles Combs
You're seven three, approximately 300 pounds. And he could jump through the building. He could dribble. He could dribble like a guard. He could shoot. To your point, basically, when he crosses, you know, anywhere from 28 in, 30 in, he's in range for a shot. And to your point about his dominance in 88, he went up. Now, how does this front line sound to you? The Admiral, David Robinson, Alonzo Morning, Danny Manning. You would take that front line, wouldn't you?
- [61:55]
Dana Augusta
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [61:58]
Charles Combs
He throttled them like they were a bunch of children.
- [62:01]
Dana Augusta
Yes.
- [62:02]
Charles Combs
By himself.
- [62:03]
Dana Augusta
Literally by him. You're right. Literally he was by himself. And it, that was like what, the metal round? It was in the middle round. It was like the semi finals that they played. That they played Soviet Union and they ended up getting the bronze because they lost that game, ended up winning the bronze medal game, you know, and they.
- [62:22]
Charles Combs
Couldn'T do anything with that guy. And to touch upon his impact on the Blazers, okay, we know about the scoring and the rebounding and the ability to run the floor, but could you imagine what he would have been able to do with his playmaking ability with, with. I mean, Clyde was a very good shooter. To your point, the underrated terror order was a deadly. A truck was a sniper.
- [62:55]
Dana Augusta
Was it from three point range? Absolutely.
- [62:58]
Charles Combs
And then even Draza Petrovich, had you given the minutes, and even Jerome Curtsy and Book Williams, they were tremendous slashers and finishes around the bucket basket. Could you imagine the chaos he would have caused with his playmaking ability? Just finding those guys, finding those open shots, hitting those cutters, slashers, man, it just would have, it would have been unfair almost. You know, even with Rick Adamant as the coach, it would have been unfair.
- [63:29]
Dana Augusta
You know, looking at that Blazers team the way you should describe it, you know, enough. And I always thinking about the. Who would have given them the most competition in the Western Conference at that time? You had the Lakers, who was on the down, who was on the downside of their dynasty, you know, they were still making the finals mostly because they really had no real competition in the West. You know, you're playing against Denver and then Dallas and then Phoenix and then, you know, teams of that nature who were west who basically was just a sacrificial lamb of the, of the Lakers during the late 80s and early 90s. But then you had the. Then you had this Blazers team with that lineup. You know, Kareem at was pretty much done. You know, they weren't gonna put Kareem out there on a Vita Saponis. I mean, let's just be real. That have been. That have been elder abuse, honestly.
- [64:30]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [64:32]
Dana Augusta
You know, Michael Thompson, AC Green going up against. No, no, that's, that's no too small.
- [64:39]
Charles Combs
Just way too small. Right.
- [64:41]
Dana Augusta
Then you would have had the young and up and coming Utah Jazz with Karl Malone. They were up and coming. They were pretty much where the team they had arrived because they had given the Lakers all kind of hell in the years in the playoffs before you had an up and coming Sonics team with Gary, a young Gary Payton, you know, but they, but nothing. But none of them would have been able to handle. Yeah, San Antonio, you know, with a, with a young David Robinson and Sean Elliott, you know, they couldn't have. They couldn't have handled that. So this Blazer team, even without some bonus, what winning 50 was winning 55, 60 games a year, adding the bonus, they might have hit 70.
- [65:29]
Charles Combs
It would have been tough. And the only team I can think of that would have given them some trouble. Just for one year. For one year, though. Well, not had they come across them, obviously. Well, they didn't hit.
- [65:46]
Dana Augusta
They.
- [65:46]
Charles Combs
Never mind. I was, I was going to say because kind of similarly to what we discussed with the Celtics, he would have came in in 86, 87. They wouldn't. Obviously it usually takes a couple of years to get your feet on dlu. So I would would say to your point probably that 88, 89 season right up in there, they probably would have arrived a year early because at first what I was going to say was 87, the SuperSonics when they had the trio of Xavier McDonald, Dale Ellis, that comment. But they wouldn't have been in contention at that time. No way. And caveat on Dale Lis, man. He the only guy that, that they could shoot in the net. Don't even move. I mean you're right man. The net. I mean the ball go technically nothing but net, but sometimes the net wouldn't even move. That's how. That's how cold D. Lis was, man, you know, so, so they would have been, man, in the early 90s, they would have been hell, man, because I still think the Jazz, although, you know, you can't.
- [66:58]
Dana Augusta
You have to. You know, I was also going to say Phoenix also with Kevin Johnson, Jeff Hornisek, Mark west. This was. This Eddie Johnson. You know, I don't think they would have had. I don't think they would have had enough. Tom Chambers, I don't think they would have had enough in, well, like that, like 89, 90, 91.
- [67:24]
Charles Combs
Two names, right? Well, one of my favorite coaches, Cotton Fitness Evans, you know, but two names would derail their chances big time. You mentioned one Mark West. Mark west, yeah. And then when they, he, he, he pick up. I've, I've seen him pick up his first two files in the game before the first TV timeout, but, you know, I've seen him do it constantly. And then they would come in with another Andrew Lang, man. Come on.
- [67:53]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about Andrew Lang. I did forget about him.
- [67:59]
Charles Combs
Just, just know Kevin, Kevin. KJ Chambers and Hornisek would have still gotten their numbers, but they weren't exactly elite defensive players either way.
- [68:11]
Dana Augusta
So Phoenix has never really been a defensive team. Never. I mean, going all the way back, I mean, going back to the 80s, they were never with KJ and, and, and, and Jeff Hornisek. They were never a defensive team ever, Ever, ever.
- [68:28]
Charles Combs
Dan. They had Dan Marley, but he wasn't.
- [68:30]
Dana Augusta
In the league yet. He didn't get into the league until like 88. Till, I think, 90. He didn't get into the league. 1991. He didn't get into the league.
- [68:40]
Charles Combs
Because I know he was on that. Because I know for sure he was on that 88 team. Yeah, that Olympic team.
- [68:45]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, he was on the Olympic team, but he might have still been in college then.
- [68:48]
Charles Combs
Yeah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, so it would have been. And then you, you, you. I mean, that combined with the fact that they had absolutely nobody to guard Clyde and I mean, nobody. You know, it just, it just, it, you know, it would have been entertaining for sure, but they, they wouldn't have really mounted a serious challenge now in 92.
- [69:11]
Dana Augusta
The Blazers in 92. I know this really didn't really add much to it, but the 92 Blazers added in free agency, Danny Ainge came in from the Celtics. They had veteran leadership. You also had a young Robert Pack, which is. If you had to compare him to somebody today, it'd probably be John Moran coming off the bench as a Rookie Robert Pack. He was a guy that was an undersized player who could. I remember him dunking over Sean Kemp once.
- [69:44]
Charles Combs
He was good. And then you also got to remember a guy perhaps that was a little bit before his time, but he was a certified sniper in his own right. I, I never cared too much for him as a player, but he was a very good shooter. And I'm speaking of Tracy Murray. He didn't really.
- [70:06]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [70:07]
Charles Combs
And I mean with Sabonas and with the type of mismatches they would have had, and his ability to stroke that outside shot in that three ball, that would have, that, that would have really given him some, you know, some things too, man. And you know, that would have given him. That would have given them another dimension as well.
- [70:26]
Dana Augusta
Right. And we can't leave off the Blazers without talking about this other part, and that's Draws and Petrovich.
- [70:33]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [70:33]
Dana Augusta
Drozen Petrovich was basically the original, one of the original Steph Curry's. You know, I, I've had, I've always said that Steph Curry. We've seen Steph Curry before. We've seen it Andra Petrovic and we've seen it in Mahmoud Abdul Rauf, AKA Chris Jackson. That's who. We've seen Steph Curry. We've seen Steph Curry before. But one of them definitely is Drozy Petrovich from Croatia, unfortunately, tragically died in a car accident. But he was one of the absolute deadliest snipers the NBA has ever seen. He was, he was a European assassin, is what I used to call him, the European Assassin, because this guy would pull up from anywhere. Now he got a lot of play and became very famous when he joined the New Jersey Nets along with Kenny Anderson and Derek Coleman. Coleman, yeah, in, in New Jersey. But he was part of that Blazers team. And Rick Adelman really didn't play him that much, you know, which I thought was, was a shame. And even then, even at that time in the early 90s, I remember seeing him play, it seemed like every time he shoot the ball and he, it would go in like, why don't you play this guy more? But I think that the reason why Adelman really didn't play him because he might have been a liability on defense. He wasn't really a good defensive player, at least until he got to New Jersey and under the tutelage of Chuck Daley was there.
- [72:13]
Charles Combs
Yes.
- [72:15]
Dana Augusta
You know, but Dr. Petrovich was like one of the great, great shooters this, the NBA had ever seen.
- [72:23]
Charles Combs
Correct. And I often refer to him as the Jackie Robinson of Europe.
- [72:30]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [72:30]
Charles Combs
You know, because, you know, before. And I know you mentioned about the Olympic team. I'm. I'm referring to within the context of the NBA. Within the context of the NBA. It was. It was always this stigma that most of the European players at that time, especially the bigs, they were either too robotic or they couldn't handle the physicality. And then overall, even though you had. You had some moments like Marceloness, but soon as Marcelo got going, he hurt his knee, and then he was really never the same. And it was the stigma that the European players, they couldn't play. They were vastly inferior and so forth. Whereas Drazen, he was kind of the first European player to. Kill that noise. He was kind of the first European player that came over, and the NBA players was like, oh, damn. Okay, this guy can play. This guy can play a little bit. He actually can play. And he was a tremendous player. And I always enjoyed watching him because he was tremendous to watch. But then just his sheer joy for the game, like his three celebrations, he was celebrating like he just won the French Open, like he just won the French Open or something. And Jesse. And then, you know, it's just tragic because we, in our couple years ago, you and I, the little brother Mark. Shout out to Mark. Shout out to Mark, by the way, the little brother Mark, we had the discussion about who would have been top 75 if not. If not for extenuating circumstances and driving as well as Sabonis would have certainly been top 75. And that would have given the Blazers three top 75 players, along with Clyde Drexler.
- [74:19]
Dana Augusta
Yep. You know, I always think, whenever I think of tries and Petrovich, I always think of him crossing Jordan when he put. When he put a crossover on Michael Jordan and made him look foolish, you know, And I like when he did that. He was like forever in my heart. Forever. You're like this. This guy. And. And you know, and you wonder, you know, why the New York. Why the New Jersey Nets never really won as much as they did, if you listen. I mean, you had Derrick Coleman, you had Kenny Anderson, Andran, you know, and. Well, and I've always figured that that was like, sort of like a missed opportunity for that franchise.
- [75:01]
Charles Combs
Well, not to dwell on that too long, because I know it's not the topic. Right. Me being the Knicks fan at the time, you remember dry. That happened with drives in the summer of 93.
- [75:14]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [75:14]
Charles Combs
Then Barry Coleman, you know, he's another player. Ability wise. Ability wise. He should be up There with, with the loans and the Barclays, talent wise.
- [75:27]
Dana Augusta
But yes, he never, it never panned out.
- [75:29]
Charles Combs
He didn't like, you know, he didn't love basketball that much. He, he was just, he just happened to be good at it. And then for Kenny Anderson, if you remember correctly, he was really fine in his stride. He had become like an all star level guard. But then he got cheap shoted by John Starks and broke his shooting wrist and he was never the same. He was never the same after that either. And then, you know, back to the blazers. Just imagine three top 75 players. That would have been very, very hard to overcome. And I think unlike, unlike what we said, Boston, we wasn't sure right with them. I'm sure, I'm sure that they would have, they would have beaten the Bulls at least twice. Not Jordan. And Jordan, I'm not going to sit here like my premise, my original premise was would he have six? I'm not going to turn around and say, well, he wouldn't have any. Because even though I don't even know.
- [76:30]
Dana Augusta
Because we're talking about, because we're talking about the mid, the early 90s. What happened in the late 90s. That's a totally different answer. That's a totally different thing. You know, most of the things that we're talking about is the early 1990s, okay? And speaking of moving on to the early 1990s or back to the mid-80s, the 86 Rockets, that team was the next in line for the Los Angeles Lakers. In my opinion, they were the next team up in the west because you had not only Akim Olajuwon who was playing power forward, which was one of the most athletic centers we had ever seen, okay? Along with him you had the other twin tower in Ralph Sampson, 7 foot 4, who could put it on the ground, very athletic, was in the eight. He was in a dunk contest, for crying out loud, at 7:4, which looked ridiculous by the way, but he was in it. You know, and then you had others like John Lucas, you know, and Rodney McCray, you know, and that team was really good. Craig Elo was on that team. A young Craig Elo before he went to Cleveland, Robert Reed, the grizzled veteran. You know, we're going to talk about Mitchell Wiggins and Lewis Lloyd in a bit. And also your personal favorite, the icon himself, Granville Waiters.
- [77:56]
Charles Combs
The icon, George Jeon.
- [78:00]
Dana Augusta
You know, and one thing about him that I'm, I'm going say this, we're gonna leave him alone. I did not realize that he just joined the league in 1984. Yeah, I thought he was in the league since like the mid early 70s. The way he looked, you know, he was young. He was a young guy, you know, and he had that, he had that reverse fade, you know, it's not like I could talk, but still.
- [78:29]
Charles Combs
It was like he had to.
- [78:30]
Dana Augusta
He had, he had this balding head and he looked like Ming the Merciless from, from Flash Gordon. And it was like, this guy is. I thought he was like in his 40s, but no, he had only been in. He joined. He came in NBA from Ohio State, 1984. And I'm like, this is a old looking dude, like a gray golden.
- [78:55]
Charles Combs
You know, my dad used to call him Granddad Waiter.
- [79:03]
Dana Augusta
You know, but. Yeah, I mean, but you look at that lineup, the 86 Rock is. Of course, we all know what happened. The 86 rock is the upset the Lakers on a miracle shot by. By Ralph Sampson at the buzzer to claim the. The winning game five, you know, which was one. My best friend David Beshay says that he refuses to watch that game because he grew up a Laker fan. And he, remember, he said that's the only time in his life he ever rooted for the Celtics was in that finals. He hates the Celtics, but he hated the Rockets even more. Now, of course. I now of course put this in the, in the, in the, in the category of irony, he's now is. He's a ticket holder of the Houston Rockets. But anyway, that's another story. But, but you talk about this, this team, the ultimate. In my opinion, the ultimate flash in the pan team, the Houston Rockets.
- [79:57]
Charles Combs
Now speaking of elder abuse, Kareem had won Finals MVP the year before at age 38 in 85 over the Celtics, which meant he was 39 for the 86 season and had to go up.
- [80:12]
Dana Augusta
Against Ralph Sander and Akeem Olajuwon by.
- [80:14]
Charles Combs
Himself with only his only help was Kurt Rabbit. And I mean an ancient Maurice Lucas. I mean, I mean not, you know, an ancient. I mean, and they just, they just tag team on him. Like they tag team on him. I don't know. You. You don't like, you don't like wrestling. But like they used to have a big team called the Skyscrapers. They were, they were dangerous. Dan Spivey in, in seeing dishes. They both. And that's how they were tag teaming on old man Kareem at that time, man.
- [80:50]
Dana Augusta
You know, and that was the thing. They, they basically destroyed Kareem in that fight in that, in that series. You Know, they could not handle no one on the. Really nobody on the Lakers could have handled a key Milajuan, just a king by himself. Not, not to mention Ralph Sampson at 7:4. You know, and that team was supposed to be the next team up. And I think that the biggest. Is it the biggest thing with that team, the reason why they couldn't. They couldn't put it all together, had a lot of extenuating circumstances outside of their own control. You know, like the Celtics, they didn't have to deal with death, but they had to deal with suspensions. You know, of a team that was on the verge of becoming a great team. But unfortunately for them, injuries and bad decision making led to their demise.
- [81:50]
Charles Combs
You know, and just before we get into that, just look at this for. For com. For, for sake. The 86 season, Kareem, I mean, he was Akeem at the time. He would become Hakeem a few years later. Yeah, he, he was still, you know, 23 years old. He was damn good, but he wasn't nowhere near polished to what he would ultimately become. Right. This is still the havoc he caused. The man was good for 23 1/2 points a game, 11 1/2 rebounds, 3.4 blocks, 2 assists, and 2 steals a game. Working in tandem with Ralph Sampson, who was 25 years old. Average 18.9 points a game, 11.1 boards a game, 3.6 assists a game, 1.3 steals a game, and 1.6 blocks a game. So between the two of them, that's five blocks a game. And that's not even factoring in all of the altered shots that they would generate.
- [82:53]
Dana Augusta
Exactly.
- [82:54]
Charles Combs
Just. And I mean, that's just incredible production. And it's just sad how like you mentioned, when they lost in six to the Celtics, they, it was like, okay, it's okay. They're obviously the next guys up. And then just as quickly as it came together, it fell apart just as quick. You know, the next season lost, they went 42 and 40. Lost to the Sonics in the first round and second round and six. I think Sampson played 43 games due to injuries. And then as you mentioned before, Mitchell Wiggins and Louis Lloyd played 32 games apiece. Because in the middle of that year, they both got nailed with. I've always thought that they were lifetime suspensions.
- [83:35]
Dana Augusta
This is two and a half years.
- [83:36]
Charles Combs
They were two and a half half year suspensions. So that's three. That's three. That, that's two starters. Yeah, and three guys total of your vital rotation.
- [83:48]
Dana Augusta
Right. And Mitchell Wiggins was a vital part of that cog of that, that Rockets team because he was a solid bench player who came off the bench and gave them quality minutes. And one thing that you have to consider also with that Rockets team, and you just mentioned it, their ages. Akeem was what, 23.
- [84:08]
Charles Combs
He was 23.
- [84:09]
Dana Augusta
Ralph was 12, 25. So they were just getting into their careers, you know, and you had John Lucas, who was a veteran, who kept all of that together, who was, who had dealt with his own drug issues, you know.
- [84:27]
Charles Combs
Yeah, he loved the book of Sugar at that time, you know, for sure.
- [84:30]
Dana Augusta
Rodney McCray, which is another solid player for, for a long time in the NBA, mostly for the Rockets, you know, in the late 80s, that are the liners coming out of Louisville and Alan Level, Robert Reed, they were some really good. Jim Peterson, backup center, hard hat, you know, you know, they were that. That was a team that was set up. They were set up. Coached by Bill Fitch. Now there's something to be said about Bill Fitch really quick, wherever he goes, as successful as that man has ever been in the NBA coaching. Going all the way back to his days with Cleveland in the mid, in the Miracle at Richfield, to winning a championship with the Celtics in 81. He wears out his welcome very quickly. He's one of the all time greatest coaches in the history of the NBA. But he coached in so many different places. And the reason why was because of his very abrasive coaching style. And I think one of the things that kind of, I think that would have dealt Houston a bad hand had that team stayed together was his coaching style. Because if you're so abrasive that it makes Larry Bird say, no, you're too rough, then that's saying something about Larry. That's saying something about Bill Fitch.
- [85:55]
Charles Combs
They quit on them in 83. Semis. In the semis against the books. They. Excuse me, they quit on them in 83 and got swept by the books, which led to his departure. And just to go back to the ages, man, like the elder statesmans of this team were John Lucas, age 32, Robert Reed was 30. Rodney. Rodney McCray was 24. Both Wiggins and Lloyd were 26 and Alan Level was 28. You know, so they were really set up. But to your point, Bill Fitch was very abrasive. And you know, we've all been round guys like that. My dad was an avid hearts racing fan. He would hate, he would literally like, you know, you know, I know in horse racing, you see the stretch, down the stretch, they come in the Horse digging, digging as deep as he can, but the jockey steady, whipping him across the butt, and he's giving him everything. And sometimes, depending on the personality of the horse, you hit the horse one too many times, the horses say, you know what? Forget it, right? I quit. You know what I mean? And it appeared that Bill Fitch kind of had that grinding. He grinds you down to enough that, you know, no matter how hard you play, how dedicated you are, it's never enough. And he just kind of over time, just mentally and physically grinds you down to a nut.
- [87:16]
Dana Augusta
Right? You know, what they have dealt. Would they. You know, they would have been right at the top of their prime right around the time of Venus of bonus would have been with the Blazers. That might have been. Instead of we talking about the rivalry between the Bulls and Pistons at that time, it would have been. We might have been talking about the Blazers Rockets rivalry of the early 90s, you know, late 80s, early 90s of them knocking hands in a. In the. In the Western Conference finals every year. You know, I mean, Ralph Sampson, a healthy Ralph Sampson going up against Arvida Sabonis. Can you imagine that?
- [87:56]
Charles Combs
That would have been. That would have been Michael Miles versus Jason Voorhees. And I mean, yeah, carnage just would have been. And I mean, Cornice just would have been everywhere, man, and it would have been wonderful to see. I mean, it just. And we just got deprived of that due to extenuating circumstances. And I mean, because, just imagine, because I mean, even like Elijah one, man, you know, you know, it's a lot of things you may do, but you're not gonna. Elijah 1. And then to speak of Elijah 1, as far as Bill Fitch is concerned, you know, he, you know, everybody remembered his mild mannered and introspective and reflective guy once he rededicated himself to Islam later in his career at this time.
- [88:41]
Dana Augusta
No, he was none of that. None of that aim. Elijah won before he became. Before he got. He reinduced himself to Islam and really became this really thoughtful, you know, intellectual guy that we've all gotten to know and love over the last 30 years or whatever. The early part of his career, I mean, he was demanding traits. He was demanding to be traded out of Houston, if that was. If you could believe that. But that's true. He wanted out of Houston. When all of this started to go sideways in the. Right around the 90s, the early part of the 90s, he wanted out of Houston because they felt like they wasn't building the team around the way that they should. And he Let them know that publicly, you know, and then I know that's kind of hard to believe from what you. For what people know about Aem, but that's exactly what happened, you know, but this, this, this team, you know, just was the ultimate flash in the pan. You know, it would have been fun to see, like, Aem Olaan going head up with. With Buck Williams with the Blazers, you.
- [89:52]
Charles Combs
Know, would that be a slavonaka? You know, to your point, Elijah one was knocking people out because you remember in the game five, you mentioned that they beat the Lakers. He got thrown out of that game because, you know, old Kurt, the. The ultimate unequal trade. Kurt Ravis, roll off of his feathers. And they got into a fight midway through the 4th, and, you know, both of them got throughout. If you're the Lakers, you definitely would take Kurt Rambis for Olajuwon.
- [90:19]
Dana Augusta
Olajuwon.
- [90:20]
Charles Combs
Obviously, you remember in the 86 fight, I want to say that was game four against the Celtics. He split Jerry's eye wide open.
- [90:28]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [90:29]
Charles Combs
With a punch. And didn't even get suspended. And then I know, was that.
- [90:33]
Dana Augusta
Was that Elijah 1 or was that Ralph Sampson?
- [90:39]
Charles Combs
No, Elijah 1 slug somebody in that game. And then I know you heard the story with him and Vernon Maxwell before.
- [90:46]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [90:47]
Charles Combs
When he was in Seattle and he told. They're walking back and Vernon was frustrated and spit on the spitting on the court, and he told him to stop it. And basically Vernon was Mad Max in his typical fashion, like F you. And then when he got to the locker room, he, he, he slapped, he slapped the taste out of Vernon, you know, so he wasn't. He probably. He probably would have spring. Well, Bill Fitz.
- [91:14]
Dana Augusta
Oh, yeah, I think, I think that would have happened. I really do believe that would have happened. The, the old Elijah one. Oh, yeah. You know, it would have been, you know, it would have been the latrell spree round. PJ Carlissimo, but like circa 1988, you know.
- [91:30]
Charles Combs
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, so, you know, but we're.
- [91:35]
Dana Augusta
Gonna, you know, we're gonna take a little quick little break here. And coming up to close out the show, it was something, A discovery that I made while researching this. And we're going to talk about. We're going to stay with the year of 1986, but what we're going to do is we're going to take a look at the draft of 1986 and some very interesting names that was in that draft of 1986. And we're going to close out the show. We're going to send a shout out to the 1986 NBA Draft right here on the Historically Speaking Sports Sports podcast right here on the Sports History Network.
- [92:34]
Charles Combs
Foreign.
- [92:38]
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- [94:14]
Dana Augusta
These historically speaking sports podcast. I'm Dana Augusta along with Charles Combs, my partner in crime, my co pilot on this remarkable podcast here on the Sports History Network. And we're going to close the show out while sending the shout out as we normally do. We're going to send a shout out to the 1986 NBA Draft. So a lot of this show was concentrated around 1986, roughly 96, from 86 onto it to the early part of the 90s. But a lot of the stories generated has its genesis from this 1986 draft and we want to get started and we want to talk about this draft right here. And while researching this, I realized that there was a lot of NBA stars that came out of this draft that Was Became household names. Some of them became, you know, in our eyes, kind of like folk heroes. So. So this is what we have. Okay, we're gonna start reading. Let's just talk about the top. Just. I'm just gonna talk about the top ten first. Okay. The number one pick overall, Brad Daugherty out of unc. Cleveland Cavaliers. The. The centerpiece of that Cleveland Cavaliers team of the 1980s with, you know, coached by Lenny Wilkins, defeated, lost to the Michael Jordan Bulls in dramatic fashion a couple of years in a row. Lynn Bias went number two to Boston. First of all, Chuck. Brad Daugherty. When you think of Brad Daugherty's name, you know, are you in your mind's eye, what do you see?
- [95:56]
Charles Combs
I see a very good player. Not necessarily dominant player. You know, not necessarily a dominant player. And if with the right team, he could help. Like, you know, he had a cast around him at North Carolina, and then he kind of landed. He wound up in the perfect spot because the Sixers, you know, you know, they. They traded him. They traded him to Cleveland for Roy Henson and somebody and then simultaneously traded Moses Malone to the Bullets for Jeff Ruling. And they haven't been any good pretty much ever since. But he was a good player. I. I don't. And I know probably he was number one. Overland Bias, due to. Similar to the NFL when it. At that time, when they. Where the NFL now places emphasis on the quarterback position.
- [96:46]
Dana Augusta
Yeah.
- [96:46]
Charles Combs
You know, at that time they placed more emphasis referring to the NBA. To the center position.
- [96:51]
Dana Augusta
To the big man. Yeah, yeah.
- [96:53]
Charles Combs
So I'm thinking he went ahead of Lynn Bias for that reason. But. But he was a. He was a very. He was a very good player. All star level player. I wouldn't say he was a great center or anything like that, but by today's standards, he would be great. And, you know, career was kind of cut a little short due to back issues and, you know, kind of reinventing himself because I know he does commentary for NASCAR these days.
- [97:20]
Dana Augusta
Actually. He was a NASCAR owner for a time. He owned a nascar. He owned a NASCAR team. I forgot who's the. Who raced for him.
- [97:28]
Charles Combs
I didn't know that.
- [97:29]
Dana Augusta
But he was an owner for a NASCAR team for a long time. In fact, he did. I think he was like part of 43. Was his number. Right. With the Cavaliers. So he had the number 43 car, which of course is famous for. That was Richard Petty. Yeah, that's Richard Petty's car. And so I think he. He was like part owner of that team and ran that team for a while, you know, so that you saw that a lot, you know, with, you know, Joe Gibbs famously left coaching and went to auto raid, went to nascar. Okay. Number two was Lynn Bias is. We talked about him. Number three for the Golden State Warriors, Chris Washburn, you talk about, you know, that's like the Ryan Leaf, Rick Meyer of the NBA was Chris Washburn.
- [98:22]
Charles Combs
Correct. Just a total waste. And you know, as you mentioned before, as we just talked about, they placed the extra emphasis on the big man at the time. And though he had some raw talent and he was a talented player for sure, you know, he never really. He was good in college, but he didn't have, to my recollection, the dominance in college to warrant being picked that high. And then he promptly rewarded them with just two years and out of the league because he had drug issues. And once he got paid, once he got paid, he didn't care either.
- [98:59]
Dana Augusta
You know, first, first three picks came out of the ACC. Brad Daugherty, UNC Lynn Baez, M.D. and Chris Washburn, NC Tennessee State. Number four, the Rifleman. Chuck Person.
- [99:11]
Charles Combs
Yes, sir.
- [99:13]
Dana Augusta
You know, that was like the beginning. That was like Chuck Person was the centerpiece of the pre Reggie Miller Indiana Pacers. You know, he was, he was the centerpiece of that team. Terence Stansberry, I remember, was still on that team at that time. Was he still there?
- [99:32]
Charles Combs
He was still there. And two of my favorite players, man, who did. Vern Fleming.
- [99:37]
Dana Augusta
Vern Fleming from Georgia. From right here in Georgia. That's right.
- [99:42]
Charles Combs
And I'm gonna take you way back. Lasalle Thompson.
- [99:45]
Dana Augusta
That's it. Right. That was, that was the Blazers. That was, that was the place that was. When was it Jack Ramsey the coach.
- [99:55]
Charles Combs
At that time or Pacers?
- [99:57]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, right before then. I think I remember Jack Ramsey was the coach of the paces in the mid-80s. But I, but I'm trying to remember who was the coach at that time.
- [100:08]
Charles Combs
Maybe big Versace, right?
- [100:10]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, it might have been. Dig Versace. Yeah, it might have been. Okay. Number five for the New York Knicks, Kenny Skywalker. The only thing I remember from him is that he won a dunk contest. That was it. And Chuck is just shaking his head back and forth like, oh, oh my God.
- [100:31]
Charles Combs
Just, just, just, just, just bum. You know, he was okay in college, but he just, he was the, he went to Kentucky. He was the proverbial tweener. And at that time, if you were between that three and four spot or that four and five, you. Most of the time you were dead. Tweeners were dead in the water at that time, if you didn't have it. And he was, he was the proverbial. He had small forward size, but with limited power forward skills, you know, so.
- [101:05]
Dana Augusta
Exactly. Number six, that was Phoenix. And they picked William Bedford, who. I have no idea who that is.
- [101:13]
Charles Combs
William Bedford. He played at Memphis State. They made the, Was it the final four in 85?
- [101:24]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, they made the final four in 85.
- [101:26]
Charles Combs
He, he and Keith Lee. He, he was, he's part of that team. He, he was a big man. He was a big man or whatever. He was good in college.
- [101:33]
Dana Augusta
Yeah. Number seven, Roy Tarpley from Dallas. Now I remember Roy Tarpley, baller. Yeah.
- [101:41]
Charles Combs
And also an element of what could have been, you know, because he had drug issues as well.
- [101:47]
Dana Augusta
That Dallas Mavericks team, people remember, people think that Dallas did really become good until like the early 2000s with Avery Johnson at the code. No, in the mid to late 80s, with, along with Roy Tarpley, you had Rolando Blackman, you had Mark Aguirre. And of course he's leaning in close. Chuck is leaning in close. He's waiting for me to say Brad Davis. So I'm gonna say it. Brad Davis, my man.
- [102:15]
Charles Combs
Brad Davis, baby. One of my favorite player. Just scrappy. Yes, always scrappy.
- [102:23]
Dana Augusta
You know, leaning in, wait for me to say Derek Harper. Of course, Derek Harper.
- [102:29]
Charles Combs
I love Brad Davis, man. He come off that and he just scrappy, man, I love Brad Davis.
- [102:35]
Dana Augusta
And of course, you can't, you can't see the Mavericks at that time without dinner bell. Mel Turpin, you know, you know, number eight, Cleveland took Ron Harper, you know, who played forever. Very good player. Very, very good player. You know, Brad Sellers was drafted by the, you know, Ron Harper drafted by the Cleveland Cavaliers, you know, when they had the orange uniforms, remember that? When they were the orange uniforms.
- [103:07]
Charles Combs
Yes, I remember that. And speaking of Brad Sellers, you know.
- [103:11]
Dana Augusta
He went, he went to nature.
- [103:12]
Charles Combs
He went.
- [103:13]
Dana Augusta
Very next pick, Brad Sellers, he went to the Bullets, the very next pick.
- [103:16]
Charles Combs
30 years, probably 30 years ahead of his time. Yeah, he would be perfectly suited. Like the way they play now. He would be perfectly suited because he was kind of like a big, big man that could really shoot it. He was left handed, if I remember. He could really shoot it from outside and all of that. He'll perfectly, be perfectly suited for today's game.
- [103:37]
Dana Augusta
Okay. And number 10, drafted by the San Antonio Spurs, Johnny Dawkins from Duke put.
- [103:44]
Charles Combs
Duke on the map.
- [103:45]
Dana Augusta
Yep. He was the one who actually put Duke on the map. Him and Duke on the map. Him And Tommy Amaker really put them on the map.
- [103:52]
Charles Combs
Yep.
- [103:53]
Dana Augusta
Some others outside the top 10. John Sally went number 11 to Detroit. We talked about him a little bit with the, you know, lsu. John Williams. John Hot Plate Williams.
- [104:06]
Charles Combs
John Hot Plate Williams, baby. That's the alltime best. Is that either John High Plate Williams or Mel Dinner Bell Turpin, who never met a plate he wouldn't eat or, or even. You remember my third nickname? I don't think he was in the draft. University of Houston. Greg Cadillac Anderson and they call him Cadillac. He used to ride everywhere on the bicycle, man, you know.
- [104:30]
Dana Augusta
You know, and another, another nickname. I was doing some research. I want, you know, you had talked about. About John Williams. We was, we had talked on the phone earlier this week. You know, what was another nickname he had? I thought it was funny since he went to lsu. What's another nickname? And it fits the Louisiana Purchase. They probably call it that because he was as big as the Louisiana Purchase.
- [104:56]
Charles Combs
Boy, he could eat. Boy, we have a meal with them Bullets. Boy, he could. Him and Lel. He. He and Lel.
- [105:01]
Dana Augusta
El.
- [105:02]
Charles Combs
Boy, they both. Good Lord.
- [105:05]
Dana Augusta
But you know, one of my all time favorite players, college players, that is was taken number 13 by New Jersey Nets. Pearl Washington out of Syracuse. I loved Pearl Washington.
- [105:19]
Charles Combs
Put the Big east on the map. Like not just he, but they made. He was one of those cast of characters in the Big east at the time, along with Georgetown and the. And St. John's guys that made. Yeah, Biggie's basically what the SEC has been in college football. They were doing that in college basketball back in the 80s.
- [105:38]
Dana Augusta
Exactly. Other name, Walter Berry. We kind of discussed a little bit with. With Portland. He was a rookie in 1986 with the Trailblazers. He was the 14th pick overall. A name today that a lot of people know of today because of his son was drafted number 15, Dale Curry, drafted by the Utah Jazz. The son of Seth and Steph Curry. I mean the father, I mean of. Of Steph Curry, drafted number 15 overall by the Utah Jazz. Other names, Scott Skiles, who holds still holds the record for the most assists in a single game. He was drafted number 22 by the Milwaukee Bucks. And he actually coached them for a while. Correct. He actually coached them for a while. You know, and rounding out the top. Rounding out the first round was before I mentioned our vita Sabonis. Number 24.
- [106:34]
Charles Combs
Correct.
- [106:35]
Dana Augusta
But then again, you get to the top, you get to the second round. Okay. Now the NBA draft back then had seven rounds. You know, that's more than The NFL draft now. So they must, so this was, I mean I, I never imagined that the NBA draft was really this long, but it, you know, it's, it used to be. Yeah, you know, one of my all time favorite players was the first pick of the second round. The Mavericks drafted him man by the name of Mark Price.
- [107:07]
Charles Combs
One and half of the first round. Easy. Yeah, easy baller. Just certified baller, man. And he basically was kind of Steve Nash before Steve Nash a little bit.
- [107:17]
Dana Augusta
Yes, he was, he was, he was, you know, this very small dominion to point guard. He was, he was, you know, he was the one who made Georgia Tech point guard university because he was the beginning of that, that line of point guards that they've had. Kenny, Kenny Anderson, Travis Best, Stefan Marbury. He was the beginning of all of that.
- [107:41]
Charles Combs
Yes, yes, he was.
- [107:42]
Dana Augusta
Number 27 by the Detroit Pistons, Dennis Rodman, the third pick in the second round Southeastern. That was the total Southeastern. Oklahoma State University. Next pick after that, Larry Kristoyak.
- [108:02]
Charles Combs
At least love me some Larry. He was never afraid to mix it up, man.
- [108:09]
Dana Augusta
No, it wasn't. Johnny Newman, another player who played a long time in the NBA, you know, coming out of Richmond, drafted number 29 overall by the Cavaliers, Nate McMillan, which is one of the underrated players in the NBA. Nick McMillan for the Seattle Seahawks. A couple of more that I remember. David Wingate, the teammate of Reggie Lewis and Height, his high school teammate. He was drafted number 44 overall by the Sixers and the rounded out, that's round out the second, the two picks in the last, the last two picks of the second round. Jeff Harnessek from Iowa State talked about him. You know, he had a long career in the NBA as a player and as a coach. And Michael Jackson from Georgetown, not the singer.
- [109:06]
Charles Combs
I just never, I, I, I don't want to get on a tangent, but I just never understood and I understand that perhaps it's due to academic standards, but I never understood why George, why, why John Thompson would get these state of the art big man and then go get these garbage guards. Yeah, you remember him. You remember after Michael Jackson, you know, Joey Brown from New Orleans, then it was, you know, like, you know, and I know he wanted to get players that didn't have any problem deferring to the big man. But how do you have people like Ewing, Mutombo, Morning and one championship that, that's just, it's very difficult to, especially.
- [109:51]
Dana Augusta
In the age of basketball, that big man was the premium. You know, having a big man, an all time great big man was Basically the coin of the rim at the time. And it just didn't work. I mean, you only win one championship, you know, and that was against, you know, and that was like the one championship that a lot of people. You think of the final four of the 80s from, like between 1981 and, say, 1987. Okay, you think back, the championship that the. That the Hoyas won in 84 is the one that nobody talks about.
- [110:31]
Charles Combs
And the only reason why they even got that one is because Clyde Drexler forego this senior year. Yeah, he came back. Had he came back that year, they would have lost that one, too.
- [110:42]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, one more I want to think, and I think this one, I have no idea who he is. I never heard of him before. But I think it's one of the great names I've ever heard for a basketball player. The number 68 pick by the Milwaukee Bucks by a man by the name of Baskerville Holmes.
- [111:08]
Charles Combs
I remember, like, that's like the coolest thing.
- [111:12]
Dana Augusta
He sound like he should be like a detective or something in old England, you know, like, you know, he should be like wearing a. A houndstooth hunting cap or something with a. With a cape, you know. You know, my name is Baskerville Holmes.
- [111:26]
Charles Combs
You know, Baskerville homes. Or with a name like Basker, you think he'll be able to get some basket? You know, I mean, like, man, you get some buckets out here, my man, you know, but.
- [111:40]
Dana Augusta
Yeah, man, but this was a great, great exercise, man, that you. That you came up with, I must admit. You know, like, these. What if these your Nero. What ifs? I think it was just an outstanding, outstanding topic that you came up with. And kudos to you. This was a. This is a great show.
- [111:56]
Charles Combs
I appreciate it. And just to cap it off, where you would set the number of championships for Jordan to have this happened, I.
- [112:06]
Dana Augusta
Think with Jordan, I think he would have won to three.
- [112:14]
Charles Combs
I.
- [112:14]
Dana Augusta
First of all, I don't think, you know, you gotta think about this too. Would he have gone play baseball if he had not won three in a row in the early 90s? Would he have gone play baseball? Well, if he didn't, if you say, I think that he probably would have won maybe in 93. He probably would have got through in 93. You know, I don't think he would have won in 90. I think the Blazers would have got him in 90, in 91. I don't think they would even made to the finals because you would have to deal with the Celtics, you know, if they would have had. But I think that, you know, they would have had bias and in. In Reggie Lewis, but I think he would have won the three Pete, but I think he would have won one, and he would have won the one in 93 when he played the Suns, I think he would have finally got through a 93, and by that time, the Houston Rockets would have been the Houston Rockets with Akeem, but I think he would have won four instead of the six. He would have won four. You know, I don't think, and I still say this to this day, that if you'd have had the Bulls with Jordan and Pippin and the whole crew go against that Rockets team, they wouldn't have beat him. Nobody. The Bullet had nobody to. To contain Akeem Olajuwon. No one, you know, Luke Long. None of. Nobody would have been able to handle Akeem.
- [113:44]
Charles Combs
I agree. I, I would. I would have capped it at 4, 2. And then if you remember, even the second rendition, the Tom Janovich Rockets. Now, this was merely the regular season, so, you know, you can't necessarily say that's a precursor to the playoffs, but case in point, the Rockets were something like 12 and four against them. Yeah, around that time, they used to beat them all of the time due to, you know, due to Elijah one and then the fact that they had all of the. The. A bunch of good complimentary shooters around him and all of that. So.
- [114:20]
Dana Augusta
Oh, yeah, this is, this is, this is great. That's what I think, man. Jordan would probably would have won four, you know, instead of the six that he had. You know, it would have been a lot harder for him to finally get over the hump because you would have had to deal with, you know, the Lynn, the Celtics. And then once you got past the Celtics, then you had. Or Vita Sabonis and the Blazers waiting for him. So our fetus a bonus in his prime, literally. Now, would he have had knee injuries or whatever? That's. Who's to say? But a full strength of vetus of bonus with a Clyde Drexler, with a Terry Porter, that's, you know, you know, pretty formidable. That's, that's. That's really, really a formidable thing to go against.
- [115:06]
Charles Combs
Really.
- [115:06]
Dana Augusta
Truly.
- [115:07]
Charles Combs
I think they would have probably gotten two, and then the Rockets probably would have wound up with about three because they would have got one of the two that they wound up getting, and they probably like two others somewhere along the way, so.
- [115:22]
Dana Augusta
Right. But this is a great exercise, Chuck. I really like that.
- [115:25]
Charles Combs
Yeah, I liked it too, and appreciate you for embracing it and discussing it with me and helping us kind of flesh this thing out. And I hope everyone enjoyed it because I certainly did.
- [115:37]
Dana Augusta
I certainly did. And the research in this and what I found out and what because every time I research something, I learned something new and I learned a lot in this man. But once again, man, thank you for coming on. And I just thank everybody out there listening for taking time out of your busy day to take a listen to us. And you could check us out on different various platforms wherever you get your favorite podcast. And we'll be right back to close out the show right after this. And folks that will do it for this edition of the Historic Speaker Sports Podcast, once again, I'd like to thank Charles Combs, my co host, my trusty co host for joining us once again on this episode. And thank you once again for joining us in this podcast, of course, comes to you from the Bill King Memorial Studio here in the sports wing of TM4 Enterprises, located in suburban Atlanta in the shadow of Stone Mountain. Once again, please don't forget to subscribe to the show to get new episodes whenever they are released. And always tell people about us, man. Tell your friends, tell your co workers, tell your neighbors. Hell, tell a passerby on the street if you leave. You think they like sports history. And once again, thank you for joining us once again and we'll see you next time.
- [117:02]
Charles Combs
Sam.
- [117:28]
Dana Augusta
It.
- [117:55]
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