Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:01]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba. To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [00:28]
Doug Bradburn
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [00:38]
Interjecting Commentator
I think we'll all agree that there's much in our lives that just has to be chalked up to being in the right place at the right time or the opposite. But let's stay positive. For me, how I got started in podcasting is very much a right place, right time situation. And meeting my wife, that was a huge lucky break. And there are countless stories throughout history of the right person being exactly in the right place at the right time. For instance, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, a Soviet submarine imperiled by American depth charges prepared to launch a nuclear torpedo. And only because flotilla commander Vasily Arkhipov happened to be on board did the launch require his consent. He refused and may have prevented nuclear war. And when a United DC 10 lost all hydraulics in 1989, a failure with no procedure, leaving the plane uncontrollable. One man writing and coach was Denny Fitch, a DC10 instructor who had practiced flying with engine thrust. Alone in a simulator, he took the throttles and helped land the plane, saving 185 lives. Or in 1788, as a young United States of America was reinventing itself with a new constitution, George Washington was there to model integrity and project confidence in an unsettled time. America has had many right people in the right place and time, but Washington is one of the first and important. On today's Saturday matinee, we're sharing an episode from the new podcast In Pursuit that explains why. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow In Pursuit. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.
- [02:22]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [02:49]
Doug Bradburn
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [02:50]
Katy Duke
Hi, I'm Katy Duke and I've been a nurse for over 20 years.
- [02:54]
Grainger Advertiser
Listen, I used to think that I
- [02:56]
Katy Duke
was my most stylish in my 20s, but honestly style and confidence only get better with age, and that is why I love figs. These scrubs are beautiful, comfortable, and they are built to last. They're not those boxy, scratchy uniforms that we all started out in. No, no, no. These fit perfectly. They feel amazing, and the quality is just wow. My favorite color? Burgundy. It's chic, it's timeless, and it's even the same color as my apartment because I'm kind of obsessed with it. And I love adding custom embroidery to make my scrubs as personal as my style. And since I work in telehealth, my embroidered figs even double as my ID badge. It's never too late to reinvent yourself or your scrubs. Get 15% off your first order at wearfigs.com with the code FIGS RX. That's wherefigs.com code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order.
- [03:52]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six? All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [04:19]
Katy Duke
Refreshers contain caffeine Instacart makes grocery shopping easier and just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app, like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved, and lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop. Today
- [04:51]
Doug Bradburn
he warned Americans about coming to see each other as aliens, coming to see each other as not Americans, because you have different political beliefs. The idea that parties would get so hot and so angry that they could lead to a lack of a functioning republic.
- [05:12]
Colleen Shogan
Just before noon on December 23, 1783, General George Washington entered the old Maryland state House, where the Continental Congress was waiting for him. The congressmen did not rise when Washington walked into the room, nor did they remove their hats, as they would have done in the presence of King George iii. They were no longer subjects of the British crown. They were now citizens of a new republic, and Washington was a man who would not be King. Men and women squeezed into the galleries to witness this moment. They sat in silence as they watched Washington resign his commission as commander in chief of the Continental Army. And then, after bowing to Congress and bidding his farewells, George Washington, now a private citizen, went home. As today's guest, Doug Bradburn, argues, Washington set a precedent for those in power to follow. So what might we learn from Washington's willingness to give up power? I'm Colleen Shogan, and this is In Pursuit, a podcast that explores lessons from America's past to write the history of America's future. Episode 1 George Washington surrenders his Sword Doug Bradburn, welcome to In Pursuit.
- [06:42]
Doug Bradburn
I'm delighted to be here, Colleen. Thanks for having me.
- [06:44]
Colleen Shogan
Well, we're here to talk about George Washington today. So let's start at the beginning. In the early parts of his life, George Washington grew up with a deep sense of insecurity. Why was he insecure as a young person?
- [06:58]
Doug Bradburn
That's an interesting way to put it. I mean, I don't know if he was more insecure than any young man who's worried about his future, has those anxieties and tries to fit in. But he had some challenges. His father died when he was 11 years old, and that kind of weakens your ability to plot out your life. He didn't, because of the death of his father, get a formal education. So he wants to be a gentleman in 18th century Virginia. With that comes a certain sense that you're educated and you know how to behave the right way. And both of his older half brothers had had that education, so he would have seen that as a weakness. And in fact, we know throughout his life he always thought his education was wanting, and we could talk a little about that, maybe more. But he was ambitious, too. And I think that ambition was really driving him to try to make a name for himself despite these challenges. So how anxious he was relative to any young man with who doesn't know what's to come, I don't know. But he certainly had some insecurities.
- [07:53]
Colleen Shogan
George Washington, as you said, his father died when he was quite young. His mother, Mary Ball Washington, was influential in his life. Tell us about her.
- [08:04]
Doug Bradburn
Yeah, I think she's an extraordinary figure and hard to get at. I mean, a lot of women in the 18th century, as you know, well, it's hard to get at them unless they left a lot of letters behind. And Mary Ball did not leave us a lot. It's led to a lot of speculation about what her relationship with George Washington was over the time. But it's clear to me that she was a woman of some grit, she had some strength. Typically a woman of her class would have remarried. She had a lot of property to manage. It was very difficult to do that in the 18th century environment. But she did it on her own. She managed, you know, a few thousand acres. A number of enslaved people, raised George Washington a number of children. Washington was her eldest son. He was only 11 years old. And so she had to serve as regent to his property. And I think she had a big impact on his reading. I think she read a lot to him, particularly from the Bible, from different spiritual lessons. But it's hard to know exactly what their relationship is. There's like three letters that exist, and I don't think people want their relationship to their kids to be known by three letters that randomly survive, some of which are not that flattering towards her. It's not clear that she was a big supporter of the American Revolution. It looks like she had a lot of loyalist tendencies.
- [09:12]
Colleen Shogan
That's interesting. Even when George Washington is the general.
- [09:15]
Doug Bradburn
Yeah, you know, it's sort of like, you know, she's. She's critical of her son. Like, you know, you're not really doing it right, you know. And he's frustrated by her because there's times when she's basically impoverished or threatened with poverty during the war. She reaches out for a gift from the Commonwealth of Virginia. This embarrasses him. He's the commander in chief of the army at the time. And he's like, we will supply you, mother. Stop asking for help. He encourages her not to come live at Mount Vernon. At one point in her life, he says, it's like a well resorted tavern, mom, you wouldn't like it. You'd have to get dressed every night. We have dinners every night with all these random people. You know, you'd be on a stage. So those kind of letters convinced some historians that they didn't have a good relationship. But in fact, she's critical to him, I think. And it's interesting the way historians have treated her over American history in the 19th century. She's the greatest example of womanhood because
- [10:05]
Colleen Shogan
she raised Republican motherhood.
- [10:07]
Doug Bradburn
Republican motherhood. She raised the greatest citizen of America. So the women are going to raise the male citizens. We're going to be in the public sphere. And so Mary Washington was this saintly woman. It's nice that she had the name Mary as well. So Protestant Americans could have their own Mary to worship. The first national memorial to a woman was to Mary Ball Washington, a monument in Fredericksburg with an obelisk, the whole deal. In the early 20th century, she became this uneducated shrew that Washington hated. Has a little bit to do with the way Freud talked about men who were raised by strong mothers, made them not quite manly enough. And so that kind of dominates some of the historiography interpretations in the 20th century. And people point much more towards Lawrence, his older half brother, as the father figure in his life. But more recently, really, in the last 15 years, there've been a number of great new books on Mary Ball Washington, which really make her a much more fully fledged human being, clearly a strong woman. And George Washington didn't suffer fools. And I think he gets that from his mother. It's clear she didn't suffer fools either.
- [11:11]
Colleen Shogan
You mentioned that Washington didn't have a lot of formal education, but one thing we know he did do was copy these rules of civility and decent behavior. George Bush, who has written the essay on George Washington for In Pursuit, writes about this in his essay. So tell us about the rules of civility. How did Washington come across them? What were they, and how were they influential as part of his education?
- [11:35]
Doug Bradburn
The rules of civility that Washington copied out when he was probably around the age 14 or 15 years old are 110 rules that are different aphorisms about how to behave. So never show anything to your friends that may affright them, and don't wipe your sleeve on your mouth at the table. Partly they are manner books. Also they have some moral implications to them as well. They also are setting up a young man of how to live in a hierarchical society. So bow to your betters, you make way on the street to the people that are higher class than you, take your hat off, that sort of thing. So they are, in essence, a rule book of how to show that you know how to behave. Now, where did they come from? We know that the original lists are very similar to lists that were produced earlier in European manners and. And literature. So these date to a Jesuit book from the 16th century. How did Washington get his version? It looks like probably a tutor that he would have had along the way had had him copy these out. But I think what's telling about them for him is he kept these with his papers the rest of his life. And actually the book that he copied these out in, he also copied out, you know, mathematical problems that he was solving. He copied out examples of different types of contracts that he would need as a businessman in Virginia. So a useful book for him that show him not only how to behave, but how to do business in the world that he was trying to enter into. And finally, I'll say that, you know, these rules, which are, you know, they're rules about how to behave in a polite way, but they're also tinctured with this very strong sense of ethics throughout them, that you want to behave in a way that represents your reputation at the highest level. You know, don't dress for flattery, don't follow the latest fashions, don't surround yourself by fools. These are things that actually he's going to go on to write to his step grandchildren and nephews and nieces when they're young, basically his own version of these rules. So I do think they had an impact on him and the way he thought about how to behave in this very regulated world that he's entering into.
- [13:38]
Colleen Shogan
As Washington becomes a young adult, he's interested in a career in the military. Why do you think he gravitates towards military service?
- [13:46]
Doug Bradburn
That's a great question. We know little exactly about his innermost thinking when he's young, but it's clear his brother had a military career. He actually had a commission from the king, had served in what's known as the War of Jenkins Ear, which was the British Empire fighting against the Spanish Empire, really over control of the Caribbean and access to their markets. And so his brother, Lawrence Washington, who's about 13 years older than George Washington, half brother, goes on this expedition and he serves with a guy named Edward Vernon and comes back to Virginia and names his estate after Sir Edward Vernon, and it becomes Mount Vernon today. So that's an interesting note. So Lawrence Washington had this role in the Virginia colony as the adjutant general of Virginia militia. And that was a role that put him in a place where he was kind of the leading military figure in the colony, involved in military decisions, and so encouraged his brother George to follow in those footsteps. And I think it was appealing to George Washington as well. On the other hand, Lawrence also recommended that George Washington become a midshipman in the British Navy, which would have changed history if he did that. And it was his mother, Mary Ball Washington, who asking her uncle, who lived in England, if this was a good idea. And he said, you'd better be apprenticed to a tinker than serve in the Royal Navy. And so she stopped George Washington from running off to sea, as so many young men did in the 18th century, whose prospects were limited. I mean, I think that's a critical thing to understand about George Washington. He didn't have a huge estate that he controlled the prospects for getting more was difficult unless he could find a way to do that. And so through Lawrence and through Lawrence's father in law, William Fairfax, and also Thomas Lord Fairfax, they really helped George Washington see a path for himself. Become a surveyor first and then take opportunities as military opportunities opened up.
- [15:37]
Colleen Shogan
So the military opportunities do open up, and George Washington finds himself actually very close to where I grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania in 1754. So tell us about the stories of Fort Necessity and Jumonville Glenn. And what kind of hard lessons does Washington actually learn that summer?
- [15:57]
Doug Bradburn
It's a great question because it's astonishing to people who don't know George Washington's story well to know he launched the first shots that launched the Seven Years War of the French and Indian War.
- [16:06]
Colleen Shogan
Now do we know that?
- [16:07]
Doug Bradburn
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the latest scholarship says that he.
- [16:11]
Interjecting Commentator
He.
- [16:11]
Doug Bradburn
Well, certainly he was in command when the first shots were shot. And it's possible that he himself was actually shooting when those first shots went off. But at any rate, the Colony of Virginia was obsessed with getting control of the Ohio Valley because that was where the future fortunes would be made. The land there was fertile. It was claimed by Virginia, going back to their earliest charters, and it was an area that they wanted to control. But it was contested first of all. The French had claims to it, pretty extraordinary claims as well. But it was actually controlled by Native Americans. This is Indian country, but also claimed by the Iroquois Confederation, who doesn't really live there either. So you have these three competing polities, Iroquois, the Haudenosaunee, and then you have the French, and then you have the British in Virginia reaching into that area. And you probably had Pennsylvania claims as well. But at any rate, George Washington brings word actually, as an envoy to that region, to the colony in Williamsburg, that the French were moving into the valley. And Williamsburg mobilizes this troop of men, the Virginia Provincial Regiment, to go seize that area before the French can get there. So Washington is marching out towards what's now Pittsburgh, towards what at the time was the forks of the Ohio and the Allegheny Rivers. And he has Native American allies with him. He runs into a scouting group or some kind of group coming from the French at Jumonville's Glen. It's called Jumonville's Glen because the young officer leading the French is Jumonville. And they end up having a skirmish. In fact, it's more like an ambush where the Virginians and their Indian allies ambush Jumonville and his French soldiers and essentially kill most of them. It's a bloody battle. It's a victory. From George Washington's sense, in the sense that they defeat these French, they take some prisoners. But it's also a terrible learning lesson for Washington because he can't control his native American allies. They end up killing some of the captives, which was not what the Virginian was there to do, including, brutally, Jumonville,
- [18:08]
Colleen Shogan
who's murdered, who has some connections, it
- [18:10]
Doug Bradburn
turns out, exactly who's connected. Absolutely. His brother is in command of a much larger group. And this is an interesting moment because it leads directly to Fort necessity, which we should talk about. But I'll say quickly about Jumonville's. Glenn. You know, George Washington writes a letter to his brother during that skirmish in which he says, I heard the bullets whistle, and let me tell you, there's something charming in the sound. Now, famously, that letter, it gets circulated in England. In fact, George ii, having heard of it, says, if this young officer had heard more bullets whistle, he wouldn't think they're so charming. And that's an important story because George Washington, still at Jamalville's gun, you get the. You know, he's 21 years old. He's a young man. He still has a romantic idea about war. He sees it as about glory, adventure, honor for himself and opportunity for himself. And that's something that will change over the course of a lifetime that becomes dedicated to military service. And that first lesson comes at Fort Necessity.
- [19:06]
Colleen Shogan
Yeah. What happens at Fort Necessity? Tell us about that.
- [19:09]
Doug Bradburn
Yeah. So there is Washington marching out there in Pennsylvania, defeats Jumonville, gets word that a larger French group are coming at him. He tries to retreat and finds a patch of ground on great meadows in Pennsylvania. And he decides to build a little fort he called Fort necessity because he knows it's not a great place. In fact, it's a terrible place. It's sort of at a low portion of a piece of ground. It can be attacked from all sides, and in fact, it could be shot at from the woods so enemy can be undercover and attacking into this fort. So built quickly as a way to protect his troops, the native Americans he's with. Once he gets surrounded by the French and their native allies, they flee because they know this is untenable. And he gets out of there, and then there's a battle in Washington. You know, they get rained on the whole time, and it's a disaster. He loses a lot of men, ultimately has to surrender, loses his army, essentially. And in that surrender, he doesn't speak French, and he uses a translator. And he admits to assassinating poor juanville in the French, which is going to go on and become important later as the French are trying to argue that the British are savages and out of control, and they started this war. But for his own purposes, it's remarkable that Washington has a later career because it's a disaster, a kind of disaster he would never have again. But also, I think the reality of soldiering in the 18th century, that really comes to roost for him there, that no amount of valor is going to beat good tactical and strategic approaches. It really is a learning episode for him.
- [20:40]
Colleen Shogan
How does the lessons that he learns in 1754 and beyond, how does that affect his leadership of the continental army during the revolutionary war?
- [20:50]
Doug Bradburn
First of all, he never loses an army in the American revolutionary war. And he makes some crazy escapes, as we know. He escapes in the face of the British in long island. And he's very good at retreating, you know, avoiding to lose. Yeah. So don't lose your army is one big thing. But the other thing, you know, in the aftermath of fort necessity, he goes on to have a long career in the French and Indian war, multiple years training the Virginia regiment, defending the frontier, building up the kind of officer corps and training of the soldiers that he needed, Constantly getting the supply in place. So one of the things he's really advocating for is when he becomes general of the United States army army for the first time. Preparation, practice, training, reading. It takes more than the title to make the officer you need to know your business. You know, this isn't just like, oh, I'm in charge now, and I'm out here doing things. You actually have to know how to manage an army in the field and take care of your logistics, take care of your men, Be concerned about their training, their discipline. And that's a critical thing he does because he builds the American army, its culture and character from scratch when he becomes the commander in Chief in 1775.
- [22:01]
McDonald's Advertiser
All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the strawberry watermelon refresher and the mango pineapple refresher with popping boba to crafted sodas like the sprite berry blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [22:28]
Doug Bradburn
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [22:30]
Grainger Advertiser
Grainger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [23:02]
Colleen Shogan
We Fast forward into 1783 and Washington after the Revolutionary War has concluded, and Washington enters Annapolis and is going to resign his commission as the general of the Continental Army. Tell us what happens at Annapolis, and also, why is this considered one of the most important moments in American history?
- [23:26]
Doug Bradburn
The surrender of his commission, the retirement of his sword after the end of the American revolutionary world was considered one of the greatest acts of the age. And it was something that he'd been promising to do since the very beginning. When he took his commission, he said, I will give this back when the job is done. He thought the job would be done, I think a lot quicker than years. But, you know, it is remarkable because this does not happen. Military leaders who win great victories in the European context are rewarded. They certainly don't go back home and, you know, into retirement. His whole idea was he would never be involved in public service or take public gratitude and certainly wouldn't take control of this new country as a military dictator, which has happened so many times in world history. But before and after him, I mean, in the English context, at the end of the English Civil War, Oliver Cromwell marches into parliament and says, you have sat too long here and rules with his army for the next 10 years as the Lord Protector, I mean, overthrows this parliamentary regime. And that was the English tradition. And then, of course, we see what Napoleon does at the end of the French Revolution, declaring himself emperor. Other revolutionary leaders like Stalin goes on to become dictators. We see it in the Castros. There's so many others revolutionary leaders who become military dictators because they feel like they're the only ones who can secure the revolution. Washington rejects all that, and in doing so, he's reenacting this incredible story from ancient times. Virtuous Roman generals in the Roman Republic who would step out from their farm, save the republic, and then go back to the plow. And that's why George Washington is called Cincinnatus. Who's this Roman figure? Basically partly mythical, partly real. And I think one of the telling stories of this is George III's reaction. His great enemy who asked Benjamin west, who was a painter, painting Queen Charlotte at the time. American boy born. You know, what will Mr. Washington do if the United States Gained their independency. And he says, well, I think he's going to retire to a private situation, your highness. And the king says, if he does that, he'll be the greatest man of the age. So Washington, when he shows up in Annapolis, everybody knew what he was going to do. It had been reported in the papers. He's on his way to Annapolis, where he will return his commission and become like cincinnatus. It's in the news, so it's an incredible event. When he gets there, everybody's nervous. The congress is nervous. They stay seated. When he comes in, rather than standing to show the civilian authority over military rule, he takes off his hat, he delivers a short speech and returns his commission. And after that, he rides 60 miles and gets back to Mount Vernon on Christmas Eve, 1783. It's a remarkable thing, and it's the first story Americans would tell about themselves as to what makes us different. Americans have often thought of ourselves as an exceptional people and why the American system's different. The first story that we told that made us distinct from European monarchies is that George Washington resigned. He wouldn't become a king. We would have a country based on the rule of law and not on men.
- [26:29]
Colleen Shogan
It's one of the most interesting lessons in history that Washington actually, by rejecting power, gains more authority and legitimacy.
- [26:38]
Doug Bradburn
It's extraordinary, right? It's this idea of walking away from power, makes it more powerful than ever. And what he gains, you know, is this very valuable commodity that politicians crave, which is trust, the trust of the people. You know, in a country that's going to be based on popular opinion, trust is one of the most valuable things that politicians should be gathering. And in your study of all these precedents, you're going to see, I think, this question of trust, where they get it and how they marshal it and where they lose it. In this case, Washington gains incredible cross, because what other way to show that you can be trusted with power than by, you know, giving up power that you had? And so that's going to be critical to him when he helps rally the nation back to reform the articles of confederation, to ultimately write a new constitution and get it ratified. Certainly one of the greatest political achievements in American history. To put a whole new government into place without a shot being fired, without blood being spilled, that completely overthrows the national federal regime, a regime that had actually won the war. The new constitution is really remarkable. It never could have happened in Philadelphia in 1787 without George Washington's presence there because of how much he was trusted. And Americans don't trust a lot of people. They worry about conspiracies, they worry about ulterior motives. But without Washington and Philadelphia, that would have been very difficult. And then the ratification itself only was guaranteed because George Washington put his imprimatur on it. And then ultimately, because he was going to be the first president. So we've created this new powerful office, or potentially powerful office. Why will it be okay? Well, because George Washington will be the first.
- [28:16]
Colleen Shogan
Certainly. At the National Archives, there are notes from the Constitutional Convention and George Washington's annotation, as that debate is ongoing in front of him. He doesn't say very much during the convention, but he's annotating some of the notes along the way. But at Mount Vernon, you have an extraordinary document as well, from a little later in 1789, after he becomes president. Tell us about that document.
- [28:38]
Doug Bradburn
Well, this is a book which we own, that we call the Acts of Congress for short. But what it is, it's all the laws passed by the first session of Congress under the Constitution. They meet in March of 1789. Washington is inaugurated president in April of 1789. Their session, that first session, lasts from March to September. So that session of Congress takes the Constitution and turns it into a working government. They pass the first lighthouse bills, they pass the first customs laws, the first tariffs. Right. They create the judiciary, they create the executive branch. And then, of course, at the end of that session, they pass the resolutions that are ultimately going to become known as the Bill of Rights. Washington signs all these things. He's president at the time. And the Congress, they print all these laws, they publish them, they give this book to George Washington. So we have his actual copy of all those laws, but what it has in the front of it is a copy of the Constitution. And when he's sitting down in January of 1790 to give the first State of the Union address, we think of President's State of the Union address. He gives the first. He rereads the Constitution, and he rereads that whole session to see what they did. And he marks up the Constitution in the margins, which is incredible because he was at the Constitution Convention. He's been president for 10 months, but here he is reading it again to make sure that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. And so in those areas of the constitution, in Article 1, where the legislative branch has to mix powers with the executive branch, he puts little brackets in the margins that say president, like the veto power president. Article two, all about the presidential Power. He writes president right next to the top. It gets down to where it says President Powers. He writes President Powers. And then it says the next one. The laws shall be faithfully executed. He writes, required. So an extraordinary moment because this is a man using a highlighter pen. This is a mind in focus, not a commentary on the Constitution, but really making sure that he knows what his job is. He's creating the presidency. It's the first time doing it. It's really a remarkable piece that we were able to acquire at Mount Vernon. And I think it's an incredible way to look at Washington. The leader.
- [30:45]
Colleen Shogan
Do you think he understood the precedents that he was setting would last? I mean, they would have these ramifications, I guarantee it.
- [30:52]
Doug Bradburn
He wrote about that many times that the challenges they were facing was making precedence for the ages, not just for their time. And particularly actually writes an incredible letter to Catherine McCauley, great English historian. The same day he's writing in this book, on January 9, 1790, writes an incredible editor in which he says, I walk on untrodden ground. Everything I do is subject to two interpretations, which every president complains about. But he also writes, everything I do is making a precedent. You know, that sense that he is not just trying to execute the laws passed by Congress, but every aspect of this role would have ramifications in the extreme. And he writes great letters in which he asks for advice in them, saying we have to be very careful because the things we're creating now will magnify in the future. He's really looking at the generational news cycle, not the 24 hour news cycle or the 15 minute news cycle, which is what we have in 2026. And I think we're the beneficiaries of that. Because when you are looking at the longer term, you're able to find compromises. You're able to use prudence and not act sometimes. You're able to be firm when you think it's very critical, but it allows you perspective, I think. And I'd love to see more leaders thinking about the longer term and not the next election cycle.
- [32:10]
Grainger Advertiser
Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, Easy reordering and 24. 7 support call 1-800GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it.
- [32:42]
Colleen Shogan
Did Washington at the end of his life, did he have any sources of regret?
- [32:46]
Doug Bradburn
He was a slave owner his whole life and we know that he writes that, you know, he has one unavoidable source of regret when he's referring to slavery before the American Revolution. George Washington doesn't express any real concern about slavery as the moral institution. He was frustrated with some of the economics of slavery in the context of the way the British Empire worked, but it really had to do more with the tobacco trade, specifically after the war. His attitude is clearly different after the war. In the 1780s, you know, you do see him expressing concerns about slavery both economically and as a moral institution. He writes by the 1780s that he wants it ended in Virginia, but he thinks it needs to be ended by legislation. In this case, he's referencing the Commonwealth of Virginia. He thinks that's the way to orderly end slavery in Virginia, kind of like the way Pennsylvania had with a, a gradual manumission bill. And so these states in north of Virginia are starting to try to figure out ways to end slavery gradually. He thinks that's what should happen and will happen in Virginia. The Constitution changes the political dynamic because the Constitution becomes a compromise with slave states and these rising non slave states. And as President of the United States, he fears that he can't himself do inaction freeing slaves. That would create a political maelstrom at a time when the Union was very fragile. That's my sense of it at least. But it's clear by 1793 he's trying to figure out how to end slavery at Mount Vernon. He's got these schemes that never pan out. It's clear one of his major challenges is the fact that the people enslaved at Mount Vernon, some of them are owned legally by him, some of them are owned by the estate of Martha Washington. So not even by Martha Washington, but her children and her heirs, because the estate of her former husband, that's the law. George Washington can't do anything about that property. But he starts trying to negotiate with some of those heirs in 1796 when he's leaving the presidency. And that never works out. So ultimately he does free the people he owns at Mount Vernon in his will, but he's not able to free the ones owned by Martha Washington's estate. And the tragedy there, of course, is that many of those families had intermarried. There's a human cost beyond the great tragedy of slavery itself. And so I Think that's a critical aspect of Washington's, you know, living in a world where you couldn't figure out a route to get out of a system. To us, it looks like perhaps a moral cowardice, but we live in the 21st century and very different constraints upon us. I think it speaks to the limit of even the greatest political leaders in this country to achieve all the things that they thought needed to be achieved.
- [35:19]
Colleen Shogan
And one of the richest and wealthiest men in the young United States still isn't able to get out from under the institution or structure that slavery's power.
- [35:29]
Doug Bradburn
That's right. And actually a lot of his wealth was actually in enslaved people and certainly in land as well. He wasn't able to find a way. But, yeah, that was certainly a regret to him and an expressed regret to him, a critical one. But I do think, you know, his moral leadership in the 18th century context was important in the way Americans rethought what political leadership should be in our context. I think his advocacy for religious freedom and tolerance across the board is not as well known. His letter to the Turo Synagogue, you know, an aspirational idea that we all should have freedom of conscience and be able to worship as we please before the First Amendment. Before that, all the establishments have been broken in the states. A really revolutionary idea about what the American republic could stand for when it came to personal liberty. And something that I think has played out.
- [36:18]
Colleen Shogan
Our last question, which might be a hard one, particularly for George Washington, as you know, in pursuit is trying to locate and identify relevant lessons about our past for our present situation and our future. What can we learn from George Washington? And it might be hard to narrow down given everything that we've talked about.
- [36:37]
Doug Bradburn
Well, true. And I can go on and on, so I'll try to be succinct. First of all, he gave us advice in his farewell address that we should be listening to. So in that address to the American people, he warned Americans about coming to see each other as aliens, coming to see each other as non Americans because you have different political beliefs. The idea that parties would get so hot and so angry that they could lead to a lack of a functioning republic, or you could have the administration clogged and not actually governing, where people would start to identify each other as enemies to the project. He saw that in his own cabinet. He saw it in his own lifetime. So he wouldn't be surprised at what he sees throughout American history. But it is a lesson we could learn from, I would say, beyond that, for leaders. Look, I mean, he led with humility, which is a hard value to lead from, but it's a recognition that you have to listen. You have to listen to other people who might know more than you about a subject. Particularly when you have the power to make decisions that can lead to life and death, that can affect people's lives, you need to be willing to recognize that you might not have the right answer. It's actually a very powerful way to lead from because if you say in the opening, this is very hard, but we'll do our best and we'll try to get it done, then if it fails, you can say, I said it was going to be really hard. I mean, that's when he took his commission in the Revolutionary War. He's like, I don't think I can do this, but I'll give it my.
- [38:06]
Colleen Shogan
You know, Washington always kind of did that, though. I mean, he had kind of a way of doing that.
- [38:10]
Doug Bradburn
Exactly. You do that and then he got it done. But I think you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You're not supposed to be. You're the leader. You're the one to bring people together. And I think, you know, his insecurity about his own education, his failures, his early military failures, his recognition that he had sent men to their death in war, these are humbling experiences and gave him a lot of strength as a leader to listen, to think about the long term, you know, and to recognize that sometimes you have to conciliate with people that don't agree with you. So I would want to see our leaders taking that lesson to heart. The human beings have not changed in 250 years. So those lessons of leading people in this system, I think still matter.
- [38:52]
Colleen Shogan
Doug Bradburn, thank you for joining us on In Pursuit.
- [38:55]
Doug Bradburn
I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Colleen.
- [38:59]
Colleen Shogan
To read President George Bush's essay on George Washington and to enjoy other great In Pursuit essays and podcasts, visit inpursuit.org In Pursuit with Colleen Shogun is a podcast by More Perfect. The series is written and produced by Jim Ambuskey. Our theme music is Cleos by Charlie Ryan, audio mixing by Kurt Dahl of CD Squared. Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app and tell us which Americans inspire you.