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- [00:00]
Host
There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history podcasts@intohristory.com Today I'm going to tell you how valuable ideas are. The sparks of inspiration and ingenuity that lead to big leaps and better, better lives. They are worthless. Ideas are cheap. Execution is everything. I don't know who coined that maxim, but I found it to be true over and over. And I'm a big ideas guy. I love ideas. I have lots of them. But that just proves my point. For instance, I've been thinking about a new podcast for years now in which a buddy and I, maybe with some invited celebrity guests, rewatch a classic war movie, then discuss the true history and the artistic license, what they got right and what they fudged on. Maybe we'd also laugh at the bad accents or worn out tropes while applauding true efforts of verisimilitude. It'd be enjoyable, fun to produce and to listen to. It's a great idea, but it's still worthless because I didn't execute on it. Someone else did. And on today's Saturday matinee, we're introducing you to that someone else. War Movie Theater and the episode we're sharing today is a rewatch of the 1962 D Day Mega epic the Longest Day, whose star studded cast includes John Wayne, Robert Mitchum, Richard Burton, Henry Fonda and Sean Connery. But even if it is a classic, is it historically accurate? Is it even good? Stay tuned to find out and I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow War Movie Theater. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.
- [01:55]
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- [02:30]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [03:30]
Rob Hutton
We have returned. For weeks and months, we have recorded podcasts on other subjects. On newspapers, on politics, on macroeconomic policy. But now we are going to be podcasting on our own soil. For reasons of operational security and because of bad weather in the channel, we have changed our codename. We are no longer a pod too far. From here on, we will be known as War Movie Theater. But our orders remain the same. To watch the films that shaped our childhoods, that told us who we were and who we were supposed to be. And there are only two kinds of war movie in this podcast. Those we've talked about and those we're going to talk about. That's right, we're marking this year's 80th anniversary of D Day by watching the granddaddy of all war movies, the Longest Day. My name's Rob Hutton, and my orders are to hold this podcast until relieved. Just after landing, I've stumbled across a lowly paratrooper separated from his unit and missing his weapon, running around hopelessly confused about where the action is. Perhaps before the episode is over, he will have shot some prisoners. Hello, Duncan. Weldon.
- [04:57]
Al Murray
It's nice to be back, Rob.
- [04:59]
Rob Hutton
Joining us in a gratuitous bit of audience pleasing casting is a man with a good claim to be Britain's leading war chatter pub landlord, military historian, and perhaps the finest audiobook narrator of his generation, it's Al Murray.
- [05:14]
Duncan Weldon
Hello, gents.
- [05:15]
Rob Hutton
Hello.
- [05:16]
Duncan Weldon
I can't find my clicker. Normally there's a clicker on my desk and I would be chirping away like. Like an enthusiastic American paratrooper. But Tragically, it is. It is lost. I mean, actually, not tragically. They're the most annoying thing on the planet. And I thoroughly recommend anyone who sees a child with one to steal it from the child bin.
- [05:37]
Rob Hutton
It will just go for thunder and flash.
- [05:40]
Duncan Weldon
Yes, exactly. Thunder and flash. Or Ham and jam. Yes.
- [05:42]
Rob Hutton
Yeah. Al, you once wrote a book called Watching War Films with My Dad. What's it about?
- [05:51]
Duncan Weldon
Well, I think it's about your life as much as it's about my life. You know, there's a. I think there's a slab of us who did exactly that, you know, and my father took me. I remember him taking me very clearly. Him taking me to see a bridge too far and I was probably too young, and him sitting there and shaking his fist at it because it was the wrong Panzers and the. You know, and he knew people who'd been there and it wasn't quite right and all that sort of stuff. So, yes, that. That's what that book's about. Having had that experience, I. I think.
- [06:21]
Rob Hutton
Our operating argument, especially for sort of. For listeners joining us in this new series for the first time, is that there is something particularly sort of British about the war movies of, well, sort of 1945 to about 1980. And that then sort of endlessly sort of played out. It felt to me like every Sunday afternoon on BBC2, you know, Michael Caine would be getting shot. And these are telling us something about ourselves. I mean, my dad claims now that he never watched any of these, but I distinctly remember watching them with him.
- [06:53]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, of course. Of course he did. Yes. I mean, I think that we watched them tells us. Also says something about us. You know, it's a sort of Mobius strip, really, isn't it? It comes back on itself. Why did we like these films? What were these films trying to tell us? What were we telling ourselves about these films? I was. I was once on a tour bus after a show. I play in a band occasionally that was called T34. It's not called that anymore. Thanks to. Thanks to Russian aggression in Ukraine. We decided maybe. Maybe let's change the name of the band. And we didn't update it. We're not T80, you know, or any of that sort of stuff. But we'd put a bridge too far on. On the tour bus coming back from this gig because we're all feeling, you know, fun to watch because. Because it isn't. It is fun to watch, which is like a strange thing. And one of the bands, what the. The wife or partner of the guitar player. Said, why are you watching this? What are you getting from this? Do you wish you were one of these men? What does this say about you and your masculinity? Right? All this sort of thing. And I had to admit, I had never run that through my software up to that point. And I couldn't give her an answer. And I felt sort of embarrassed and discombobulated by being asked, you know, just as the PIA was being brought up at Devon.
- [08:09]
Al Murray
No one should ever feel discombobulated as the PIET is brought up.
- [08:12]
Duncan Weldon
No, of course not. Of course not. No. But it was where these films sit. And I did go through a period in my life where I was trying to sort of, like, not be beguiled by all this and to put it all away and be interested in other things, you know, because the world is a gigantic and interesting place. Maybe the Second World War films had to have had their run of me, but. But, you know, more full me, you know.
- [08:34]
Rob Hutton
Well, when. When I published my last book in 2018, a TV executive said to me, the thing is, people aren't really interested in World War II anymore.
- [08:45]
Duncan Weldon
Well, I made a show 20 years ago called Road to Berlin, right, for the Discovery Channel, which was tremendous fun. And I got to drive a jeep, theoretically. Theoretically, drive a jeep from Normandy to Berlin, although, you know, we more of a roundabout route than that due to scheduling and the jeep blowing up. There's a great scene of we're in Paris, liberating Paris, and I'm actually on a low loader, which is why the perspectives are all wrong as we drive around Place Le Concorde, because the jeep had conked out. Anyway, we had a new broom problem at that broadcaster. So suddenly you got someone different in. We said, we want to do Road to Rome because we think, you know, Sicily all the way up the spine of Rome Casino. The story's amazing, you know, happy ending, Rome, Rome delivered to the Allies, undestroyed and all that sort of stuff. She said, well, I think the thing is, is that, you know, the party's over for the Second World War. She said that 20 years ago.
- [09:37]
Rob Hutton
Yes. Well, we have Waze launches in 2019. Does it?
- [09:41]
Duncan Weldon
Yes, we. We started in, I think, May of 2019. And we're one of those things where the pandemic is the thing that actually was the making of us. So we, you know, in that sense, we had a good war, but, yeah, I mean, we've been doing it for. For. For five years nearly. I mean, we ought to finish next August, really.
- [10:00]
Rob Hutton
Well, you know, it depends when you think World War II started. You can make an argument.
- [10:03]
Al Murray
Yeah, go for the 37 argument. It's fine, it's fine.
- [10:05]
Duncan Weldon
I'd go back further. I think. Manchuko. Japanese aggression in Manchuria. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I, I think we, we've. We've plenty to talk about. And the, the actual thing as we go further into it, into the podcast, the more we talk about, the more I realize I know a vanishingly tiny amount about it, actually, because it's just such a gigantic thing.
- [10:31]
Rob Hutton
Talking of vastly complicated subjects that you could study endlessly. Let's turn to D Day and. Well, I have no idea when I first saw the Longest Day. At some level, I feel like it may have been playing on a loop in my. Sort of. In the television in the corner of our room from about 1982 to about 1988. Any. Any idea, any of you, when you first saw it?
- [10:58]
Duncan Weldon
Well, I can't. Well, I can't echolocate it because we had a black and white telly for a very long time. My father, my father, you know, wasn't going to go, didn't see the point television, so we weren't going to ever get a color telly. So who knows when I saw it because everything was in black and white at that point. So maybe. I don't know. I do. I mean, I do remember it was one of those films where my sort of spider sense tingled about things not being so that it's the, the thing with the clicker with the dump where he. The gun and he shoots him twice. Right. Without re. Cocking the gun.
- [11:32]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [11:33]
Duncan Weldon
So it's all that click clack, click clack, click clack, click, clap, bang, bang, click clack. And you're like. But that doesn't. And even as a small boy, I'm like, nah. So I remember it for that. But also, I mean, I couldn't tell you when I first saw it.
- [11:49]
Al Murray
Yeah, I mean, me neither. I'm very like both you that. Yeah. It seems to have been permanently on at some level.
- [11:55]
Rob Hutton
It's also because it's incredibly. I mean, it's. I don't even. Episodic is quite the way. It's a. It's a mosaic. It's a patchwork.
- [12:02]
Duncan Weldon
Well, you know what? I watched it last night. I watched it again last night and I really loved it for that on this viewing because when you read about D Day, that's what it's like because it's obviously, it's impossible narratively to, you know, unless you A Mike Figures film. You've got five strands all happening at once on the. On the screen together with all the action. That's what reading about D Day is like. So for a film to be like that, I thought was actually. Is actually fine. And I actually found it convincing kind of the storytelling in that regard.
- [12:31]
Rob Hutton
Absolutely. I like that about it. I suppose it does make it hard to think about when you saw it because in a sense you don't quite. You remember individual. I remember the guy hanging from the church tower. I remember. I remember your man getting shot with his clicker and this kind of thing. But you could have sat down and watched one of these and then been summoned away, if you see what I mean.
- [12:49]
Al Murray
And yeah, I don't know if episodic's the word. I mean, it feels more. I mean, it feels more docudrama than straightforward film, the way it's done well.
- [12:57]
Duncan Weldon
And a lot of the action is like that. Sort of the sequences on Omaha beach at the end where they're sort of going forward and they're getting ammo and he's. And they're arguing about what to do and debating, you know. And it wasn't Cota that said, you know, there's two kinds of people on this beach. Those are dead and those are about to die. Someone else said that. I think a guy called Taylor said that really, which is I. You know, again, spider sense. But the interesting thing about that is the action in that completely conveys suddenly a bloke next he's killed out of nowhere, seemingly. That the random nature of it and a lot of the sort of tedium of dragging boxes up a hill and stuffing them in a. You know, like it's. It's sort of. The action is sort of, in a weird way prosaic and some of it's strangely mundane and that feels to me really, really convincing. And also, I mean, the other thing is the debt of honor of Saving Private Ryan to so much of it. The point duoc sequence is essentially the same. What does bitter mean? They play that same scene out in Saving Private Ryan and everyone's going, oh, Saving Private is the most gritty war and horrific war film ever made because they shoot the. They shoot the people surrendering. Well, I mean, we. We had it in the Longest Day.
- [14:05]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [14:06]
Duncan Weldon
And that, I think part of that tone, I think is really, really interesting in it too.
- [14:10]
Rob Hutton
I think that this might have been. I watched it the other night and I sat down and watched it from beginning to end, despite it being a three hour film and it being a family evening. So it's one of those things where at various points children would wander in and actually, unusually, the teenagers would sort of sit down and go, okay, what's going on? You know.
- [14:31]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [14:31]
Rob Hutton
And you say, d day's going on, son. And. And actually my wife joined me for the last hour and I. She pretended to be looking at her phone, but I. I knew really that she was sort of. She wanted to know whether they take Wistroom or not. Yeah. So it actually does, I think, again, in a weird way, because you don't need to know who these people are. You can kind of. It's quite a nice film to just come into and it's like, oh, well, you know, who's this guy? It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, darling. They're on the beach, they're trying to get off the beach. That's all you need to know. So it comes from the Cornelius Ryan book, which I haven't read, but which I actually really want to read, having watched this. But the book comes out, it's a huge success. It's almost immediately optioned. The producer, Daryl Zanuck, is really. It's his passion project. Apparently his son is worried it's costing too much. I mean, a forerunner of today's teenagers. Wondering why I have this big pile of Blu Rays next. Because it cost $10 million, which is 100 million today, you know, which again, you know, compared to the average Marvel film, to be honest. But that makes it the most expensive black and white film until 1993, when Schindler's List comes out. Yeah. And. Well, you can imagine that it would have been expensive. And they try to save money by. This is one of the interesting sort of choices, having three different directors all filming at the same time.
- [16:02]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Rob Hutton
So you've got a German director, and in fact, there may have been two German directors. This is slightly disputed by different accounts. And. And a British and French director and American director. And I, in my head again, when I was preparing to watch this, I thought, oh, that's why you can see all the joins. And then I watched it and I thought, you can't.
- [16:21]
Duncan Weldon
No, you can't. Now you're telling me this, and this is a revelation. I didn't know that. Right. You can see why you might have done that. But it doesn't cut. It doesn't read in the film at all.
- [16:33]
Rob Hutton
No, I think Tora. Tora Tora does this as well. And in Tora. Tora Toro, you kind of. You kind of can.
- [16:37]
Duncan Weldon
You can Smell it.
- [16:38]
Rob Hutton
Yeah. And it's a. It's. It's All Star. It's so all starry.
- [16:43]
Al Murray
Did they all get their full fee? Because, I mean, lots of them are just in for, you know, let's talk about the fees. Oh, God. Because if anything, it is the only film I'm aware of which is more All Star than A Bridge Too Far.
- [16:59]
Rob Hutton
It's very All Star and everyone is signed up on a flat fee of $25,000, with the possible exception there is a story that's may or may not be true, that Richard Burton and Roddy McDowell, who are stuck in Rome filming Cleopatra where they're not being used and they're very bored, and they phone Zan up and say, look, just. Just let us come and do something. And. And they fly themselves up and film their bits for no fee. Just. Just to be. I don't know whether I believe that.
- [17:30]
Duncan Weldon
But that is magnificent, given that Burton gets to bookend the film. That's very strong.
- [17:35]
Rob Hutton
Well, that's why. That's why I'm not quite sure I believe it. On the other hand, that you never see him flying or anything, but maybe you do. No, you don't. You never see him flying.
- [17:42]
Duncan Weldon
I don't never see him flying.
- [17:44]
Rob Hutton
So.
- [17:44]
Al Murray
Yeah, but if you're the director or one of multiple directors and Richard Burt.
- [17:48]
Rob Hutton
Well, absolutely.
- [17:48]
Al Murray
I believe that I'm available. I don't want to be paid. I mean, you need.
- [17:52]
Rob Hutton
I. I believe that if you were offered him, you take him. But, but.
- [17:57]
Duncan Weldon
Well, and it does look like two days. That there's the. Yes, he was only on two days. Now, you say that you can see that you can. In fact, you can bust it all up into the days they were on, can't you?
- [18:09]
Rob Hutton
And the other. The. Pretty confident this is true, because I've seen in several places it's. Everyone gets a flat fee for 25, 000, except John Wayne, who has a grudge against Zanuck because he'd been rude about the Alamo and. And he demands to do it for $250,000, despite the fact. And it's. This is the weirdest bit of casting, because he's playing Vandevoel. He is 20. He's 55 years old. Vandervoort. Do you want to know how Vanderbilt was on D Day?
- [18:41]
Al Murray
Close enough.
- [18:41]
Duncan Weldon
He's 31 or so.
- [18:43]
Rob Hutton
Yeah, I believe he was about 27. No, they thought about Charlton Heston, but. But John Wayne was willing to do it, obviously. He's such a big star.
- [18:51]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, well, you'd go and see that, wouldn't you?
- [18:54]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [18:54]
Duncan Weldon
Regardless, at the time it is a.
- [18:56]
Rob Hutton
Bit sort of Tom Cruise offering to be in your film. It's like, okay, okay, we will, we will have you. Even with your your lunatic demand that you get to ride a motorbike off the cliff. You know, there are endless facts. 2000 active soldiers are hired by it. There's rows about they've got American soldiers and then there's a crisis. The Berlin crisis is happening. And so there's questions in Congress about whether whether these guys should be off filming a film in France.
- [19:21]
Duncan Weldon
Amazing.
- [19:23]
Rob Hutton
Anyway, you could do a three hour film about the making of this three hour film. Duncan yes, Rob? Do you know what would help me to get off this beach?
- [19:33]
Al Murray
What would help me get off this beach, Rob?
- [19:35]
Rob Hutton
What would help me get off this beach is if our listeners were to like subscribe and give war movie theater a five star review.
- [19:41]
Al Murray
There are only two types of people on this beach, Rob. People giving us a five star review and those who are going to die.
- [19:50]
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- [20:55]
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- [21:48]
Rob Hutton
Let's go to the after action report. And I say, quick, dad, they're on the cable cart. When do you want to be called in?
- [21:56]
Duncan Weldon
It's Pegasus Bridge. Yeah, right. Or it's taking a casino. But the thing about Pegasus Bridge, right, no one believes anymore that they did that because it's unbelievable, isn't it?
- [22:12]
Rob Hutton
There was a guy, I only discovered this after he died. There was a guy in my church who was on that. In one of the gliders, died a couple of years ago. And it's one of those things where you think, well, I wish someone had said that to me before he died.
- [22:27]
Duncan Weldon
No, I think it's that because they did that is simply incredible. And obviously, you know, it also has the virtue of having gone exactly according to plan because the, because they weren't expecting that to work. The expectation was that would fail. So, yes, all right, it is Pegasus Bridge. You can keep that great long tracking shot.
- [22:45]
Rob Hutton
I mean, right, so the great long tracking shot at restroom is my. That was a jaw on the floor moment for me. I was like, bloody hell, how long are they going to keep this going? You know?
- [22:55]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, that's a boggling piece of cinema. But I think as a moment for like, what the hell is happening? Story wise, did this really happen? It's the gliders at the Concanal. Because it's. Because it just beggars belief that they did that and that it worked and that, you know, you know, I've spoke to a guy called Wally Parr 20 years ago who was on glider number one with the Oxford Bucks and, and he says, well, you know, that's, that's exactly what it was like, mate. And I know I said earlier on, memory gets distorted by the movies because that's exactly what it was like, mate. In we come, you know, crash, bang, out we jump, you know, and I'll, I'll, I'll buy that. And I think that's one of the things this film, this film does do what it can to create verisimilitude, I think, which is really good, you know, especially around something completely mad like that.
- [23:43]
Rob Hutton
It's kind of thing that works because it's such a surprise that you can sort of imagine the defenders even as there's all of this noise, even as it's all the shooting thing. No, hang on, no, we're not the front line. You know, we, we get warned before people shoot at us.
- [23:55]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [23:56]
Rob Hutton
And sort of struggling just mentally to understand what's happening to them?
- [24:01]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, It's. It's extraordinary. And as a coup de man itself, but then as a, you know, as a coup de cinema, it works. It tells the story perfectly.
- [24:11]
Rob Hutton
There is also, pleasingly, Richard Todd, sort of last seen in this podcast, blowing up dams, going off to write letters, very sad about his dog. Richard Todd, who plays Major John Howard hold until relieved. I saw an interview with Howard. Gosh, it must have been about 94, because it would have. Must have been the 50th. Saying, I was not sitting there thinking, hold until relieved. I was not sitting there thinking, but it work. But it works. But he's on. Richard Todd, as a young man is on the Pegasus free trade, and I think they offered him the chance to play himself and he said no. He knew he was a sufficiently successful actor to know which role he ought to be taking.
- [24:55]
Duncan Weldon
Yes, yes, that's right. He was in Seven Power with Pine Coffin. His lieutenant colonel was called Pine Coffin, which I think is just probably one of the greatest British army lieutenant colonel names of all time.
- [25:07]
Al Murray
It's like a character from an Evelyn War novel who stepped into.
- [25:10]
Duncan Weldon
Absolutely.
- [25:11]
Rob Hutton
I'm not sure I'd want to be commanded by Pine Coffin. Well, I don't know.
- [25:14]
Duncan Weldon
I. His nickname was Wooden Box.
- [25:21]
Rob Hutton
How did you come by that Squatty humor?
- [25:24]
Duncan Weldon
Is Enigma wrapped in a mystery? Anyway. Yes. Yeah. So he parachuted in, you know, half an hour later, Todd himself, and then they're the first people to relieve the guys at the Oxen Box. And it's amazing that he's in the film. It's an incredible thing to have done.
- [25:37]
Rob Hutton
I also, I love one of the lines that I just wrote down as just being great is up the Oxen Bucks when he charges. Because I just thought. I tried to imagine American audience that.
- [25:47]
Duncan Weldon
Might mean only steady.
- [25:51]
Rob Hutton
The buffs could have been sort of more. More utterly mysterious.
- [25:58]
Duncan Weldon
Well, and also the oxen bucks being on the American side in a film, I mean, surely, surely that they'd be thinking, hang on a minute, these are the red coats. I mean, it's. It is quite the thing, isn't it?
- [26:10]
Rob Hutton
That.
- [26:10]
Duncan Weldon
That sequence, it's brilliant. You know, you feel like that's a thing they should show in schools.
- [26:16]
Al Murray
Yeah, exactly. No, it's the same moment for me as well, you know, there are three reasons that I've ended up, well, being like this and doing this podcast. One is watching too many of these films with my granddad at the time. Secondly is my granddad is talking about the war and the Third one was a school trip to Normandy when I was about 11 or 12 and we went to Pegasus Bridge on June 6. It was one of the anniversaries. And, you know, this was, you know, about 50 odd years afterwards, so there were a lot of veterans there, just sort of chatting school kids and it was.
- [26:47]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [26:47]
Duncan Weldon
Gosh, how amazing. Wow.
- [26:50]
Rob Hutton
The only other scene that. I mean, the Omaha beach scene is amazing again, as a piece of cinema and so on. But the other one I would just recommend is. I offer is the Richard Burton one. I mean, literally, if you turned on the film and it was finishing and you just saw. Oh, hang on.
- [27:05]
Duncan Weldon
Just.
- [27:05]
Rob Hutton
Just stay here for a second, darling. Richard Burton's about to pop up.
- [27:09]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [27:10]
Rob Hutton
You know, and deliver five lines brilliantly, you know.
- [27:14]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah. Yes. He's extraordinary in it. And you can, you know, anyone who has only ever seen sort of tail end Richard Burton should treat themselves to that scene. It's incredible. Have you ever killed someone close up? No. No, I haven't.
- [27:30]
Rob Hutton
Yes. You get. You get the full kind of. Oh, right. Okay. You're. This is why you are one of, you know, Britain's. Britain's leading actors for. For two decades.
- [27:40]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [27:40]
Duncan Weldon
And in a peculiar way, it's an anti war film suddenly. Yeah. At that point, isn't it?
- [27:45]
Rob Hutton
Is this what war is always like, do you think? You know, it's fantastic. Next. Next section. She's not so dumb. Are there women in this film? We might, I think not for the last time, combine this with the Dam Buster's Dog prize for the most problematic moment. Sort of. Not a lot of problematic moments in this film, but the arrival of Janine on her bicycle. I was a little bit. I don't know where to look.
- [28:16]
Duncan Weldon
Well, isn't. She was having an affair with Zanuck, I believe. How she got the part. So rumor has it. I mean, she's a. She has a pivotal action moment.
- [28:27]
Rob Hutton
She does later. She does absolutely. Later. The. The sort of the. Her opening arrival. I. That is the only moment in this film that I just vaguely.
- [28:35]
Duncan Weldon
You're supposed to. You're supposed to drop your popcorn and say, crikey, aren't you?
- [28:39]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [28:39]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Rob Hutton
I. I wondered if. If, you know, if the 2024 remake gets quite that scene in quite that way. But the other women in the film are the nuns.
- [28:53]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [28:53]
Rob Hutton
Who are terrific. I mean, which actually that's also a great little sort of just the concern and them, you know, you must leave. And the mother superior saying we.
- [29:03]
Duncan Weldon
But there's something sort of Monty Python about them. March, you know, in phalanx. Coming through the battlefield with things pinging around them and being unharmed. I mean, it's. I mean, in a way, you can see what Python would be drawing on, in a way, for some of their stuff, because it's. Is it. I don't even know if it's melo. Is it melodramatic, them appearing like that?
- [29:22]
Rob Hutton
I don't know.
- [29:22]
Duncan Weldon
I don't know what the. I don't know what the. I mean, they're literally deus exact, aren't they?
- [29:28]
Rob Hutton
Yeah, I. Yeah, no, it's. It is a thing. And it's a thing that provides a. There's a. It's actually. There's all these little moments of comic Relief. Yeah.
- [29:35]
Duncan Weldon
Yes.
- [29:36]
Rob Hutton
That sort of leaven the sort of. The tremendous seriousness of it all. But. And then you've got this, you know, and then. Then you just got this sort of. Then go straight to a proper kind of moment of courage. No, we will stay. You know, we. We are nurses.
- [29:50]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah. Yes, It's. It's beautifully done, that, actually. And there's the. There's. The Frenchman on Omaha Beach's Wife, isn't there? Belongs.
- [29:57]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [29:57]
Duncan Weldon
You know, like, you know, and he's. He's enjoying being shelled, sort of. And, you know, which, when you come to a bridge too far, although it's a different direction, you know, it's coming from a different place. That film, it's like the Old lady where they say, I'm afraid we're going to have to, you know, we're gonna have to take your house, occupy your house. It's got a bit of that flavor.
- [30:17]
Rob Hutton
Rather a war on, you know, the casualty list. I don't have a movie body count, but. Duncan, do you have a D day body count? Yeah.
- [30:28]
Al Murray
So D day body count, 10,000 plus Allied casualties, 4,400 dead. Estimated 4 to 9,000 total German casualties.
- [30:39]
Duncan Weldon
I mean, while you're putting 23, 000, I think it is parachutists down, airborne soldiers down, and then it's something like another hundred coming. Coming onto the beaches and so. And they were expecting 30, something like that casualties. Yeah. So it's, it's. It's not. It's not a bad day for. For the Allies in that. In that regard. I think it's pretty crap if you're a French civilian.
- [31:03]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [31:03]
Duncan Weldon
Because you. Because you've. You've been bombed flat for weeks, haven't you?
- [31:07]
Al Murray
I mean, this is the weird thing about the memory and the films of the period, isn't It. Because there's so much on D Day itself and, you know, D Day itself, you know, by its own terms, very, very successful.
- [31:17]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Al Murray
And it's then the following six weeks in Normandy, which take a lot longer than anyone expected or a lot bloody than anyone expected. Terrible fighting in Normandy rather than D Day itself in the campaign, where, you know, a lot of the. A lot of the, you know, the casualty rate in the six weeks after D Day, you're getting towards First World War levels.
- [31:37]
Duncan Weldon
Yes. I mean, if you're. If you're an infantryman, it's the same, really. Essentially the same. And the thing is, they're all writing home going, still, it's not as bad as it was at the sum for you, dad, you know, which is, I think, quite remarkable. And now I can't remember which American division it is that basically in the next fortnight that comes off Utah beach, takes 100 casualties. Yeah. So they go through everybody.
- [32:00]
Rob Hutton
Well, the, The. The Fonda character, Teddy Roosevelt Jr. Who, you know, they're terribly worried about sending him onto the beach and, you know, and is he gonna go and that kind of thing. And I looked him up because my son is slightly obsessed with American presidents and. And. And he dies a month later. Yes. So. And he's a general. And I feel that generals are not supposed to die in combat.
- [32:20]
Duncan Weldon
They're not really meant to. No. The expectation is they don't. Yeah. He has a heart. I think he died of a heart attack. Yeah.
- [32:27]
Rob Hutton
Oh, right. So. No, not, Not. Not.
- [32:29]
Duncan Weldon
Because he did have a dick. He had a dick. I seem to think so. But then McNair is killed. Lieutenant General. Lieutenant General McNair is killed in the opening phase of Cobra a couple of months later, which is the. The American breakout operation in July by American bombers because he's too far forward or they're. Or they miss their bomb line. So. So it's, It's. Generals are in the body count, which is, I think, in Normandy, in the. In the major main campaign.
- [32:56]
Rob Hutton
I mean, when you go around there, there's. Every town you go to has a. Has an American or British war memorial. It's sort of really quite striking. Yeah, Well, I mean, we have the cooler king for the most gratuitous American character.
- [33:09]
Al Murray
It's John Wayne.
- [33:10]
Rob Hutton
It is John Wayne.
- [33:12]
Al Murray
He's getting it purely by being John Wayne in this film. 20 years too old, paid 10 times as much as anyone else.
- [33:20]
Rob Hutton
Right. Finds John Wayne and introducing who's in this. In a tiny part, who goes on to be a legend. And there's There is an obvious one and then there are two much more interesting, less obvious ones.
- [33:32]
Duncan Weldon
Well, Sean Connery.
- [33:33]
Rob Hutton
Sean Connery is always Bond. Just.
- [33:35]
Al Murray
Just about to be Bond.
- [33:36]
Rob Hutton
Yeah. This is his last film before Bond.
- [33:39]
Duncan Weldon
And he's terrible in it.
- [33:40]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [33:41]
Duncan Weldon
You wouldn't. You wouldn't watch that and go, this man, this. This is the guy we are looking for to be the, you know, iconic, suave. It's ridiculous.
- [33:52]
Rob Hutton
Well, you know who's in it, who Ian Fleming was looking for to be Bond? Richard Todd.
- [33:57]
Al Murray
Really?
- [33:58]
Rob Hutton
Apparently. I mean, again, I can see that. Well, yeah, again, yeah. You know, I mean, sort of fewer, sort of. If you were picking posh English stars at that point, you might well have sort of thought of that.
- [34:09]
Duncan Weldon
You might.
- [34:09]
Rob Hutton
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no. So Sean Connery is going to be Bond, but this film features not one but two Bond villains. Do you know that?
- [34:18]
Al Murray
I did not know that.
- [34:19]
Rob Hutton
Right, so Kurt Jurgens, who plays Gunther, General Gunther Blumentrit. I mean, I couldn't tell you any of the German generals who they are, apart from Rommel, but he will go on to be Carl Stromberg in the Spy who Loved Me, but much more entertainingly. Do you remember the comedy German who is getting shelled, who's always bringing the coffee to the front?
- [34:44]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, it's Goldfinger.
- [34:46]
Rob Hutton
It's Goldfinger. Yeah. Gert Froebe. And in fact. So his character in this is called Sergeant Cafe. Can he see Sergeant Coffee Pot? So nominative determinism. He's the man, the man with the coffee pot.
- [35:06]
Duncan Weldon
Amazing.
- [35:08]
Rob Hutton
All sorts of foreshadowing there.
- [35:10]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, extraordinary.
- [35:12]
Rob Hutton
He's bought it. Sarge, best death. I'm quite tempted by the resistance guy at the start because.
- [35:18]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, that.
- [35:19]
Rob Hutton
Actually, that's the reason why I slightly wondered how many times I'd seen this film from the beginning, because when that happened, I thought, blimey, I don't remember that. And that's, you know.
- [35:27]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [35:27]
Rob Hutton
Proper brutal.
- [35:28]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [35:29]
Duncan Weldon
Yes, I know. I think I'd agree with that. Because there is this film's sort of ability to change tone and maintain tone and all that is, I think, really, really interesting. And that you do have. There is loads of light relief, but also there are deaths that are like. That make it clear what we're actually dealing with here. And I think that's. That's like the. I think that's a sort of calling card, isn't it, that first? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:53]
Rob Hutton
It's a. We're not mocking about. I mean, the other obvious one is the Omaha beach engineer.
- [35:57]
Al Murray
Yes.
- [35:59]
Rob Hutton
Now, Duncan, have you looked it up?
- [36:01]
Al Murray
Yeah. Very hard to get very good details on this one. Promoted by Coto at all.
- [36:07]
Rob Hutton
Yes. Yeah. It starts today as a sergeant who's wife has left him and ends today as a dead, dead lieutenant. Probably with a medal or something, but unclear with job.
- [36:18]
Al Murray
It's the kind of thing Cota would do. It's a very sort of inspiring leader, running around the beach and, you know, 29, let's go and all this.
- [36:27]
Rob Hutton
But we don't. We don't. That's sort of a composite event, as it were.
- [36:31]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, it is the kind of thing that's happening, though, you know, make no mistake. So you could put that in the film without. And it's. It's real enough, isn't it?
- [36:40]
Rob Hutton
Good luck. The best meme I'm sure I have actually used hold until relieved. I. I think during the Brexit wars, I was using that on Twitter quite a lot. But. But the other one I quite like is the soldiers missing each other at night.
- [37:00]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [37:00]
Rob Hutton
When they're passing each other. Because that's actually. That's one of the scenes that stayed with me since childhood.
- [37:06]
Duncan Weldon
I mean, if only that stuff weren't shot, the sound stage, it would just be like. It would be completely believable. I think that those sort of night scenes are all a bit brightly lit and noisy, aren't they, that you can hear they're in it. You can hear they're on a soundstage. And it's a thing in. You know, in Band of Brothers, they did do really, really well. Is that that sort of people wandering around in chaos thing? But yes. Or. I mean, the other one is the. Is the padre, you know, with his clicker.
- [37:33]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [37:33]
Duncan Weldon
God damn it. God damn it, Padre. I just think that's really, really funny. That's like. That's a. That's also a. A good meme moment, isn't it? Shut up. You know, I love that. It's really good. And I like that they use the Vickers for comic Relief.
- [37:48]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [37:48]
Rob Hutton
Yes, yes. And making the point that these guys were dropping too.
- [37:52]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:56]
Rob Hutton
Stiffest upper lip.
- [37:57]
Al Murray
Did we give it to John Howard?
- [37:58]
Rob Hutton
I think. I mean. Yeah.
- [38:03]
Duncan Weldon
Well, I don't know. I think the padre looking for his chasuble or whatever it's called, you know.
- [38:08]
Rob Hutton
Looking for communion kit.
- [38:09]
Duncan Weldon
Communion set. We must now do God's work, dear boy, whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, as you say, they were dropping in as well. So clearly these blokes are. These have hard as nails Vickers which is always a, you know, fascinating contrast, isn't it, that. That. Yeah, they're men of the cloth, but it's extremely tough cloth that they're cut from, so. Yeah, yeah, maybe, or. Yeah. There are many stiff upper lips, though, aren't they?
- [38:33]
Rob Hutton
Yes, yeah. I mean, obviously on Omaha beach, everyone has sort of got a stiff upper lip. I don't know the Americans have ever really quite mastered.
- [38:40]
Al Murray
I always think, so, the stiffest. The stiffest upper lip in the whole operation. And also at Arnhem, I think it's the glider pilot. And that's just, you know, you're flying this rickety machine, you. You're aiming for a crash landing, because it's a crash landing only that's how these things do.
- [38:55]
Rob Hutton
And then once you've crashed it, you're.
- [38:57]
Al Murray
Picking up a rifle and finding it's an infantryman.
- [38:59]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [39:00]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [39:01]
Duncan Weldon
Yep.
- [39:01]
Rob Hutton
Yeah, that is. That is quite extraordinary, actually.
- [39:03]
Duncan Weldon
It's a fairly short straw. And they were. And they were volunteers, so, you know, Nastiest Nazi.
- [39:11]
Rob Hutton
It's one of those Were the Germans so bad type films.
- [39:16]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [39:17]
Rob Hutton
Which I guess comes from the book. And the fact that Ryan's interviewed all sides and that their line is, look, this is. This is a military thing and, you know, we were on different sides and now we're, you know, now we're all on the same side in NATO. And. And, yeah, you know, that's sort of the context.
- [39:33]
Duncan Weldon
Yes. There is an absence of nasty Nazis, which is peculiar, isn't it? And all the. Certainly all the people who are generals are going, there's a bit of that. If only. If only the furor would listen about it.
- [39:45]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [39:46]
Duncan Weldon
I always think is a very peculiar thing to dig into, but, yes, there's no one saying, you know, going, kill them.
- [39:57]
Rob Hutton
Yeah. You know, it does completely buy the idea that, yes, it was Hitler's sleeping pill. Was. Was what cost him the war. It's kind of the myth of Rommel and.
- [40:06]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yes, there's a bit of that going on. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
- [40:09]
Rob Hutton
Which is, you know, in. In late 50s, early 60s is absolutely what there was floating about.
- [40:15]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah.
- [40:16]
Rob Hutton
I mean, I struggled a bit on. On Best Lines. I did have some. Hang on. I sort of. It's not a. Not a hugely quotable film. No.
- [40:27]
Al Murray
I mean. I mean, I quite like the Lord Lovett. You know, we have another engagement with the war when they. Time to drink champagne sort of thing. Liberate the town. I quite like. Who is it? James Gavin, 82nd Airborne. Robert Ryan, you know, the one we're In Normandy you'll have two things. God and this. Holding up his rifle.
- [40:46]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [40:47]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, that's good.
- [40:48]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [40:49]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [40:49]
Duncan Weldon
And I suppose Burton saying, you know, there's thing that's worried me about being one of the few as we keep on getting fewer.
- [40:57]
Rob Hutton
Yeah, that is, that was my top line.
- [40:59]
Duncan Weldon
But.
- [41:02]
Al Murray
The film needs more Lord Lovett. It's just, it's just, it's just a wonderful.
- [41:05]
Rob Hutton
Well, bagpipes. Yeah, I just. Not enough bagpipes in combat.
- [41:12]
Duncan Weldon
That is Bill Millen playing Bill Millen, isn't it?
- [41:15]
Al Murray
Oh, is it?
- [41:16]
Rob Hutton
There's, there's some back. No, I, No, I'm not sure it is. I think, I think that it's widely believed to be, but I think in fact it's the Queen's Piper or something. I saw some back and forth on this.
- [41:26]
Duncan Weldon
I was convinced it was okay. Right, well that's, that's interesting.
- [41:29]
Rob Hutton
But we've done Broadsword radio. Completely implausible moments. There aren't. There's sort of, there's bits of this that don't sit quite right. But there is, there is none of it that, that you think.
- [41:41]
Al Murray
Well, I mean, it sort of helps. You know, it's a. It's almost a docudrama style adaption of a non fiction book, isn't it? It's not, you know, there's bits and pieces you can quiver with, but the overall picture, I think is not bad at all.
- [41:53]
Rob Hutton
Judgment at Nuremberg.
- [41:56]
Duncan Weldon
Well, I mean, interestingly there. For, for there being no evil Nazis or bad Nazis in it. The fact that you do see American soldiers kill men who are surrendering.
- [42:06]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Duncan Weldon
Is. Is pretty striking actually.
- [42:08]
Rob Hutton
I wonder what bitter. Bitter means.
- [42:11]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah. And. And it's sort of presented as, you know, tough cheese rather than anything else, I think.
- [42:18]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [42:19]
Duncan Weldon
You know what I mean? It's not present, it's not presented as a war crime, but it is presented as a mistake and, and a heat of battle thing. But it's very. I think that's such an interesting moment to include in a film because I. Because what is the. Why are you making this film? Is it to say we must all pull together when faced with adversity or the war's over now we've, we can all get over it because, because the tone towards the Germans is very much that 60s like, yeah, pals now, you know, let bygones be bygones sort of thing and tales of heroism, you know, it's a peculiar artifact in that respect because it's not saying we must, we must defeat tyranny. Wherever we find it, it's kind of like, well, we've got to do an invasion. Germans are sort of ridiculous. It's very peculiar in that regard. So to have that scene in it, I think is really, really, really interesting. It's interesting. Choice.
- [43:10]
Rob Hutton
Yeah. Well, I mean, so in, in Band of Brothers, there is what we think is a prisoner's execution moment. It's never quite.
- [43:17]
Duncan Weldon
Spears. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:18]
Rob Hutton
It's never quite clear whether that's happened or not. Yeah. And as you say in, in Saving Private Run, and part of this you just think, well, look, it's a combat zone and, you know, you don't. You don't want to sneak up behind a man with a gun, you know, because he'll, He'll. He'll shoot you. Which is sort of how it's presented here. It's not that they, that they're. It's not a deliberate act. It's a kind of bang bang, you know?
- [43:41]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah. But it is, it is the kind of thing. Phil Shiner would have come at you, you know, 10 years ago if a British. You know what I mean? It's the sort of thing now we would, we would go, hold on a minute. Is that not a war crime? Yeah, but it's in a film in the 60s where it's sort of presented as a mishap and with some kind of humor in it. It's a, It's a. It's just that it's depicted at all, I find really, really interesting. But it is, it is a thing that's happened since time immemorial. And after all those blokes in that bunker were up to that point trying to kill you. Yes. You know how you're supposed to uncouple yourself from that? I don't know.
- [44:16]
Rob Hutton
I mean, it's amazing that it ever works at all, actually. You think that a bit in Wistroom, when they all suddenly surrender and it's like you think, well, blimey, you know, if I was surrendering at that point, I wouldn't be completely convinced, given what I've just been doing to these boys, that I was going to live to see the end of the day.
- [44:34]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, exactly. Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups? Probably so they never slip from her hands. Could you imagine?
- [44:48]
Rob Hutton
I'd lose it.
- [44:49]
Duncan Weldon
Luckily, Reese has thought about that. Wonder what else they think about. Probably chocolate and peanut butter.
- [44:57]
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- [45:32]
Rob Hutton
Duncan, is this the operation that changed the course of World War II?
- [45:36]
Al Murray
I mean, it's got a fairer claim than most be spoken about.
- [45:43]
Rob Hutton
I think you can argue.
- [45:46]
Duncan Weldon
Well, although, although I would say it is the operation that is the course of World War II. Yes.
- [45:52]
Rob Hutton
Right. Yeah. I mean, this is slightly the Phillips O'Brien argument, isn't it?
- [45:55]
Duncan Weldon
That it's only going one way and the way it's going. And also, I mean, when you delve into it, there's only one place they were all that s is Normandy. Well, that of course is Normandy. There's nowhere else you can go. You can't fit that many ships into the Pas de Calais. That would be much more difficult. And you need fighter cover. It's obviously, you know, come on, you, you, you know, your coffee potted Germans figure it out. Yes, it's Philip's argument. This is the operation that is the course of the Second World War, but it certainly changes the course of it. There's no doubt about that.
- [46:25]
Rob Hutton
Yes, yes. If you do, if you don't do it, you're going to have to do it.
- [46:30]
Duncan Weldon
Yes, exactly.
- [46:31]
Rob Hutton
Worth dying for. I mean, we love this film, don't we?
- [46:35]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the thing. I, I hadn't watched it in a really long time and I, and I found it, I enjoyed it far more than I thought it. Thought I was going to. I think the end where they, where the, the rousing choral thing of the longest that's like serve its time and ghastly.
- [46:53]
Rob Hutton
Yes.
- [46:53]
Duncan Weldon
And corny. That I think maybe, maybe it's the aftertaste of that rather than the film itself.
- [46:59]
Rob Hutton
There is this weird thing in Hollywood in the late 50s, early 60s where every film has to have a song and, and somebody has to sing the theme, sing some words to the theme tune and. Yes, yes. And I'm very glad that they've stopped doing that.
- [47:13]
Duncan Weldon
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it's great. I think it's well worth it. I think it stands up.
- [47:20]
Al Murray
Yeah, completely. I mean, you know, you won a lot of Oscars, didn't It.
- [47:23]
Rob Hutton
I. Ooh, good question, actually. What did it win? So it wins. It's nominated for best picture. It wins best cinematography. It's nominated for editing and it wins special effects.
- [47:37]
Al Murray
Special effects doesn't really count, does it? But I think, you know, the Academy was right. And nominated for best Picture. It's a very, very good film.
- [47:43]
Rob Hutton
And how the Weestrom assault took eight takes to get it right. There's some suggestion in one of the books I read that several of the directors tried. It's a helicopter they use. I was just sitting there thinking, how are you doing this?
- [47:57]
Duncan Weldon
But it is a helicopter.
- [47:58]
Rob Hutton
Yeah, it's a helicopter. And. And it was the British director who managed to nail it. But.
- [48:04]
Duncan Weldon
Wow.
- [48:04]
Rob Hutton
But yes, you know, because. And that special effects. Because those explosions.
- [48:07]
Al Murray
Yeah.
- [48:07]
Rob Hutton
You know, are not. Not painted on afterwards and so on.
- [48:10]
Duncan Weldon
So. Like, they would be today. Yeah.
- [48:12]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [48:13]
Duncan Weldon
God. Brilliant.
- [48:14]
Rob Hutton
No, so actually, I really. I too, really enjoyed this film probably much more than I thought I would, actually. You're right. That sort of. And I mean, we are, as I say, going to turn to Saving Private Ryan, but I think I would offer this as a D Day movie over Saving Private Ryan, actually.
- [48:30]
Duncan Weldon
Well, if you want to know what happened on D Day. Yes.
- [48:33]
Rob Hutton
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Duncan Weldon
You know, and it's not. There's. There's no scene with Americans sloping around going, that Manny's no good. Who put Manny in charge? You know, there's none. There's none of that weirdly injected stuff because people weren't saying that at the time. And they certainly. And they Weren't saying it 20 years later even, you know, even though Monty by this point had written his memoir and upset Ike. But, you know, it wasn't a. Wasn't a thing. And I think it. It's good. It's good. Refreshing that that's not in it.
- [49:02]
Al Murray
Just mentioning Ike, isn't it? Didn't they ask Ike to be in the film?
- [49:06]
Rob Hutton
They consider getting Ike to play Ike and they realize that they can't. They can't make up ike to look 20 years to look like Ike. A problem that didn't bother them with John Wayne, I think, who. Who is not convincingly playing a man in his late twenties.
- [49:22]
Duncan Weldon
Bounds of reality. Wow. Amazing.
- [49:28]
Rob Hutton
Well, that was the longest day. Thank you, Al.
- [49:32]
Duncan Weldon
My pleasure. Thanks for having me, gents.
- [49:34]
Rob Hutton
And thank you, Duncan.
- [49:35]
Al Murray
Thank you.
- [49:45]
Rob Hutton
That was war movie theatre. Thanks for listening. And join us next week where we'll be stealthy and secretive with Tim Shipman watching where eagles dare@hotels.com.
- [50:07]
Duncan Weldon
We know some travelers crave an ocean breeze. Others don't want to deal with sand.
- [50:11]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
And oftentimes those two people end up together.
- [50:13]
Duncan Weldon
Compare properties side by side to find yourself poolside, oceanside, and still in a relationship. Find your perfect somewhere with hotels dot com.