Abigail Adams: life of the week

Summary

HistoryExtra Podcast: Abigail Adams – Life of the Week

Release Date: June 29, 2026
Host: Eleanor Evans
Guest: Laura Kamoy (historian and co-author of "A Founding Mother")

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Episode Overview

This episode of HistoryExtra’s “Life of the Week” takes an in-depth look at Abigail Adams, wife of John Adams and mother of John Quincy Adams, exploring her multifaceted role in early American history. Host Eleanor Evans speaks with historian and writer Laura Kamoy about Abigail's influence, her proto-feminist legacy, political partnership, entrepreneurial spirit, and family life. Together, they challenge familiar narratives, offering a nuanced portrait of a woman at the heart of America’s founding era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write About Abigail Adams? (02:26–07:10)

• Laura Kamoy describes being inspired by Abigail Adams, long on her “short list” of women with untold stories.
• The challenge: finding a fresh perspective, given Abigail’s iconic portrayal (e.g., Laura Linney in HBO’s "John Adams").
• Unique storytelling angle: much of John and Abigail’s marriage was spent apart (>10 years)—What was Abigail doing during these years?
• Contextual fit: The book’s release coincides with the 250th anniversary of American independence, and Abigail’s voice resonates for this pivotal moment.
• Abigail’s Massachusetts roots and maturity (already a wife and mother during the Revolution) offer a distinct vantage point compared to other women of the era.

“While Abigail's a huge part of his [John's] story, he's not always part of her story.” — Laura Kamoy (04:00)

2. John and Abigail’s Partnership (07:23–14:13)

• Early relationship: Met as teenagers, initially friction due to strong personalities. Grew to mutual respect and affection.
• Abigail was the daughter of a parson in rural Massachusetts, self-educated and advocating for women’s education stemming from her insecurities.
• John encouraged Abigail’s intellect; their bond centered around reading, debate, and mutual advice.
• As John’s political career advanced, Abigail managed their farm, handled epidemics (dysentery and smallpox), and started entrepreneurial ventures (selling pins and goods for profit).
• She became John’s primary political advisor, especially when trust in his cabinet was compromised by rivalries (notably with Alexander Hamilton).

“By the time he gets to the White House, she really becomes not only his friend and confidant in more private areas, but also his primary political advisor.” — Laura Kamoy (13:16)

3. Abigail Adams as Proto-Feminist – "Remember the Ladies" (15:43–19:29)

• Their extensive correspondence provides insight into Abigail’s mindset.
• The iconic 1776 letter: Abigail asks John to “remember the Ladies” in the new government.
• Kamoy reads the full letter, highlighting its radical tone for the era—not just about including women in new laws but warning of rebellion if rights are denied.
• Abigail was influenced by and mirrored contemporary feminist thinkers (e.g., Mary Wollstonecraft).
• While not uniformly “liberal” by modern standards, Abigail advocated women’s rights, education, and opposed slavery—ahead of her time.

“If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.” — Abigail Adams (quoted by Laura Kamoy, 16:38)

4. Abigail’s Stance on Slavery (19:29–22:26)

• Abigail’s personal actions and family background reflect her anti-slavery beliefs.
• Her father owned slaves; Abigail advocated for and secured the freedom of Phoebe Abdi, who became a maternal figure.
• Details her hospitality and friendship with Phoebe, as well as discomfort with Jefferson’s slave ownership—cited as a cause of estrangement with Jefferson.
• Abigail was disturbed by the use of enslaved labor in constructing Washington D.C.

“John Adams and his son, John Quincy Adams, were the only two of the first 12 presidents who neither owned people nor supported the institution of slavery.” — Laura Kamoy (22:13)

5. Changing What She Could (22:26–23:46)

• Abigail was pragmatic, affecting change where she could, especially in her family and community.
• Her legacy: Do what is possible on a personal and local level.
• Kamoy emphasizes the inspirational nature of this approach for modern listeners.

“Local change is important change, personal change is important change. And so I think she leaves that legacy to us to do what it is you can do.” — Laura Kamoy (23:08)

6. Shaping the Role of First Lady (23:46–28:08)

• Abigail’s experiences in Europe shaped her approach to status and influence in America.
• She found European court life superficial; used this to help mold a more republican, meaningful social sphere in the U.S.
• Played a central role in devising “parlor politics”—networking and influence through social gatherings rather than rigid hierarchies or calling cards.
• Was sometimes called "Mrs. President" due to her sway; credits Abigail as foundational, though Dolley Madison often gets historical recognition.

“She not only began to shape what the first lady role could be, but both friends and critics sometimes referred to her as Mrs. President because she was so influential.” — Laura Kamoy (27:04)

7. Abigail as Mother (28:08–33:13)

• Known for her prolific letters and for being the wife of one president, mother of another (John Quincy Adams).
• Four of six children survived to adulthood; affectionate but could be stern.
• Valued education for her children, especially for her daughter Nabby, sending her for advanced learning despite personal sacrifice.
• Made tough choices—sent sons abroad despite wartime risks to broaden their experience.
• Her relationship with her children was close and integral, advising even as they grew older, and supporting through hardships (e.g., Nabby’s cancer).

“She was a very active mother. She could be stern sometimes, but mostly she was quite loving. And this is why we called the novel a Founding Mother, because she raises both these children and the new nation at the same time through these very challenging circumstances.” — Laura Kamoy (32:36)

8. Abigail’s Pragmatism, Business Acumen & Lasting Legacy (33:33–36:39)

• Kamoy and co-author Stephanie Dray were surprised by the extent of Abigail’s entrepreneurship—making investments, handling finances, and purchasing land through male proxies.
• Her financial independence after the Revolution was due to Abigail’s shrewdness, not John’s earnings.
• At her death, she left her amassed wealth to the women in her life, believing financial independence was key to true autonomy for women.
• Abigail changed what she could within her legal and social constraints—her story is both inspirational and aspirational.

“She wrote a will and she left that money to the other women in her life with the belief that you couldn't be truly independent unless you had financial independence, which is such a modern thought, and I think something that women will absolutely resonate with.” — Laura Kamoy (35:15)

9. Closing Thoughts (36:52–end)

• Kamoy stresses the importance of active participation in society and government, echoing Abigail’s life lessons.
• The “more perfect union” is an ongoing, communal effort—everyone can make a difference, however small.

“...they need our active participation. And I think that's what a lot of these ladies that we've written books about, and especially Abigail Adams, remind us that we have a role to play to make our world better...” — Laura Kamoy (36:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On partnership:
  “...she advised him on all different parts of his life. So he came to, you know, think of her as his partner, as an equal in their relationship...”
  — Laura Kamoy (09:46)

• On “remember the ladies”:
  “Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could.”
  — Abigail Adams (letter, read by Laura Kamoy, 16:38)

• On change:
  “Abigail Adams makes a habit out of affecting the change that she is capable of affecting. And I find this extremely inspirational and hopeful...”
  — Laura Kamoy (22:33)

• On financial independence:
  “She wrote a will and she left that money to the other women in her life with the belief that you couldn't be truly independent unless you had financial independence…”
  — Laura Kamoy (35:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:26] Why write about Abigail Adams?
• [07:23] John & Abigail’s early relationship and partnership
• [09:46] Abigail’s role as partner and entrepreneurial leader
• [15:43] The “Remember the Ladies” letter and feminism
• [19:29] Abigail’s anti-slavery stance
• [22:26] Making change where she could
• [23:46] Shaping the office of First Lady
• [28:08] Abigail as mother and family matriarch
• [33:33] Discovering Abigail’s entrepreneurship
• [36:52] Closing thoughts and legacy

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Summary & Takeaway

This episode offers an illuminating, nuanced portrait of Abigail Adams—not just as the wife of a founding father, but as a proto-feminist, political partner, community leader, mother, and entrepreneur. Through Laura Kamoy’s research and storytelling, listeners gain a fresh perspective on how Abigail’s personal convictions, actions, and intellect shaped not only her family’s legacy but also the young American republic. Her story is portrayed as both historically significant and powerfully relevant, reminding us of the value in doing what we can, where we are, with the opportunities available to us.

Recommended for listeners interested in:

• American Revolution and early republic
• Women’s history and proto-feminism
• Family lives of political figures
• The making of American social and political roles

Book mentioned:
A Founding Mother, co-authored by Laura Kamoy and Stephanie Dray

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Transcript

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[Podcast Host Eleanor Evans]

Remember the ladies so wrote Abigail Adams to her husband, John Adams in 1776 as he helped to frame the laws of a new independent United States of America. Women, she famously reminded him, should be included in the nation building too. As the wife of a founding father in early American history, Abigail was able to push beyond the restrictions of many of her sex in the 18th century, influencing policy and advocating for those in society who often didn't have a voice. These actions have sometimes seen her remembered as a proto feminist in the story of the US but how true is this reputation? And what other strides was she able to make? In this Life of the Week episode of the History Extra podcast, we're joined by historian and writer Laura Kamoy to consider the life of Abigail, the subject of Laura's new historical novel, co authored with Stephanie Dray, a founding mother, she was speaking to Eleanor Evans.

[Interviewer]

Laura, thank you so much for joining us on the History Extra podcast today. It's a real pleasure to be chatting to you this spring and especially in such a momentous for U.S. history. You've written with your co author Stephanie Dray about Thomas Jefferson's daughter Patsy and Eliza Hamilton, the wife of Alexander. Can you tell me what led you next to Abigail and how you've approached her story together?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Well, Abigail Adams has long been a huge inspiration to me personally. When writing our novels, we're always coming across interesting people with great stories. So we have sort of a short list of ladies about whom we might write, and Abigail's been on it. However, we were a little intimidated by Abigail Adams, not only for who she was and how much we admire her, but also because Stephanie and I are both great admirers of an HBO miniseries about John Adams. And in that the actress Laura Linney plays an absolutely fantastic Abigail Adams. We love her portrayal, and we worried whether or not we could write something that would offer a new interpretation or a new perspective on Abigail Adams. But one of the things that becomes apparent in that miniseries, and especially when you study her life, is just how much time that John and Abigail had to spend apart. It was a cumulative of over 10 years of their marriage. They spent apart because of John's various wartime and nation building commitments and appointments. And so we asked, well, what was Abigail doing during that time? And the answer was quite a lot. And so that was the first thing that made us think, okay, there's something unique we can say here because of course, the miniseries focused on John, and while Abigail's a huge part of his story, he's not always part of her story. During those years, then when we thought about the fact that the book would be coming out in 2026, which is the 250th anniversary of America's declar of independence, we thought, well, who better really to speak to us about what that anniversary means to Americans, to the world, especially because Abigail speaks in such an astonishingly modern way. We really felt her voice would be perfect for this year. And then our third consideration for why we decided to write next about Abigail is that when we're thinking about who to write about, since we have written about Thomas Jefferson's eldest daughter and Alexander Hamilton's wife, who next would allow us to tell a substantively different story about the American Revolutionary era and experience? We're writing about basically the same cast of characters. All of these people are running in the same circles. And so who will allow us to say something new about the experience of the revolution and the era as a whole? And Abigail really fit that for a number of reasons. One was that she was older than the other two ladies. So by the time the military conflict erupted, she was already a wife and a mother. And that made her experience different and unique. And then where she was from was also a Real deciding factor, because Massachusetts has a number of superlatives in American revolutionary history. First of all, it's where the American Revolution began. Colony of Massachusetts was responsible for the earliest and the most radical resistance to British rule. And as a result, that colony experienced the most and the most severe punishment from the British for that resistance. Particularly when the colonists in Massachusetts engaged in throwing a little bit of tea into the British harbor. A lot of interests in Britain really disliked that. And the colony as a whole lost all kinds of self governance rights. And the lush, like the first battles of the American Revolution took place in the colony of Massachusetts. And that colony contributed the most soldiers to the Continental army. So all of that military history happening right around Abigail, who was alone with her little family, really made our opportunity to offer a unique story, especially strong. So for all of those reasons, it made sense to tell Abigail Adams story and to put her front and center.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So her life offers a new lens, a different way in to look at this revolutionary history, this nation building history. And many of our listeners will know her as the wife of John Adams. They met when she was 15, is that correct?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

That's right. They were young people and initially they were not at all impressed with one another. They're both very strong willed people and they really liked to irritate each other. Initially they were not at all fond with one another. But eventually Abigail really grew to admire John for his ambition, his intelligence, his quick wit, his forthrightness and directness and the way that he also encouraged all of those things in her. So they really ended up having a true love match. And I think it's a little known, but great American love story.

[Interviewer]

It's a formidable partnership for sure. If we can look a little bit at their sort of, I guess their origin story a bit more closely. So John is a lawyer at this point. She's from a family in, is it fair to say, rural Massachusetts in the mid 18th century. What does life look like for her there?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

She was the daughter of a parson. She and her sisters did not have any sort of formal education, so they spent a lot of time sneaking up to the library in the parsonage and reading all the books there and debating what they learned and teaching each other things. And that really did offer a. A pretty fantastic education. Though she would spend her life a little bit insecure about not being formally educated. And it's one of the things that led her to become a real advocate for women's education. Rural Massachusetts was very much centered around both the town meeting, which is where you had your civic and political rights and the church, which is where a lot of your social life and, of course, your religious and spiritual life were centered. She met John because John was very good friends with a man named Richard Cranch, who was interested in her sister Mary. And so I think when Richard came around to visit with Mary, he would often bring his good friend John along, and that was part of how they got to know one another.

[Interviewer]

So, as readers might find in your book, there's a bit of friction there to start off with. But as we know, they soon fall into this very impressive partnership in lots of ways. Can we go into a little bit about how that began to form, how he began to rely on Abigail?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

So it all really starts with the fact that Abigail was looking for someone who would accept her for who she was. Part of it might be John nurturing her to be comfortable, speaking out and voicing her opinions, but part of it, I think it was just her nature. And so she was looking for someone who would accept her for that. And in John Adams, she found someone who believed in and accepted that women could be intelligent. And he encouraged her to voice her opinions, and that became very much part and parcel of the kind of relationship they had. They loved to debate the ideas of the day. They would read books together and discuss books, and she advised him on all different parts of his life. So he came to, you know, think of her as his partner, as an equal in their relationship and in, you know, helping to run the farm. And she was very much someone who was willing to pull up her sleeves and do what needed to be done. And, of course, in farm life, that's very much needed. And as he began to move more into his political career, she was left alone to do all kinds of things, not just the things you would expect that a woman would be doing, taking care of the children in the household, but she had to manage the farm, which meant also managing the tenants and guiding the farm workers, which was not always easy, because they didn't always want to take direction from a woman. It meant figuring out how to feed her children in the middle of a war. It meant taking care of the surrounding community. It meant getting her family through two different epidemics. First dysentery and later smallpox, for which, without telling John, she had herself and her children inoculated, which was not something that was entirely safe in that era. And then she ultimately ends up creating businesses. Her entrepreneurial spirit was really something to behold, because it was not as common during that time. But she started asking John to send her various goods, particular pins, which was confusing at first because why so many pins? But she could sell them for like 10 times what she bought them for. And she started making quite and she didn't necessarily tell John initially about this money that she was making. It was her pin money, if you've heard that phrase, this is where it comes from. And then she ultimately expanded that to cloth and gloves and scarves, other things that ladies might need, and ended up having quite a little savings that helped her and her children get through the war. So by the time they get to reunite, among all of John's commitments, Abigail is a quite self assured, independent, independent person and he recognizes that in her and appreciates it. And then by the time he gets to the White House, she really becomes not only his friend and confidant in more private areas, but also his primary political advisor. And the reason for that was because he couldn't trust anyone in his own cabinet. Now the reason why that happened is because he thought it might be important for continuity of government purposes to keep on all of President Washington's cabinet officers. The problem with that was that they were not loyal to John Adams, they were loyal to Alexander Hamilton. So John quickly came to realize that anything that he discussed or debated with his cabinet officers was going to get back to Hamilton. And we've written a whole book about Alexander Hamilton. We're fans of the musical. But in the Adams eyes, Alexander Hamilton was often a complete menace and did a lot to thwart things that John wanted to do or was working for and the like. So he couldn't trust his cabinet. So he turned to Abigail Adams.

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[Interviewer]

NA John and Abigail, they left such a rich trove of correspondence behind them, which is part of the reason why we're able to know so much about her and your novel's able to explore so much of it in her thoughts. And there's a particular letter I wanted to pick up on which is perhaps one of the most famous. When she writes to him in 1776 to remember the Ladies, which is often invoked as sort of creating Abigail as a bit of a proto feminist. I want to explore this a little bit more with you. Do you think that's fair to see her in this way? How do you think of it?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

I think it is mostly fair to see her in this light. I think that in terms of 18th century thought, the idea of remembering the ladies in creating the laws and the governance of a new nation was a progressive idea. And in fact, when she writes this to John, she's disseminated, which is partly dismissive and partly teasing, as if she had been telling a joke, which she had not. But I think the other thing to recognize is that the idea that her admonishment to remember the ladies was not all that she said. And I want to read the entire quote because a lot of people don't realize just how forward thinking what she said to him was. So she continued to warn John, do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation. So in that quote, there's a couple of things I think. First of all, she's not at all holding back her thoughts on the position of women if they find themselves under the control of men who either don't allow rights and privileges and freedoms and the like, or are outright abusive. She's also clearly quite voiced in the language of the day because she's using what the Founding fathers are saying to justify breaking free from Britain and throwing it right back in John's face about the relationship that women find themselves in vis a vis men. It's also quite clear that she is reading what other women of the era are writing. And in particular, she was basically in the same era, thinking the same thoughts, espousing the same thoughts as people like. Like Mary Wollstonecraft. And so she's operating in this new, ish, emerging arena of women and some men who are starting to advocate to remember the ladies, to consider the ladies in creating these new governments. And I think that can be fairly described as sort of early feminism. Now, Abigail wasn't universally liberal in the way that we might think of that today. She was a very religious lady, and she did have conservative ideas about family and motherhood and being a wife and the like. But for her time to be an advocate for women's rights, women's education, to be against the institution of slavery, these were progressive opinions for her time, for sure.

[Interviewer]

Can we just stay on the idea of her being opposed to slavery as well? In what ways do we see this during her lifetime?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

One of the biggest ways was a very personal way, and that was that her father was a slave owner. And there's a woman named Phoebe Abdi, who really is something of a mother figure to Abigail and her sisters, and they advocate for her freedom from her father. Many and ultimately Abigail takes Phoebe in when she goes abroad to Europe with John. She leaves Phoebe in charge of her house as a free person. And she at one point hosts Phoebe's wedding in her home, something that was a little consternating to some of the white folks who were there weren't entirely comfortable with the sort of mixed gathering. And at the end of Phoebe's life, she cares for her as Phoebe is dying, and mourned her as if she had been her mother because they had become so close. And Phoebe, in many ways, had become a real mentor to Abigail. Abroad, she received Thomas Jefferson's second daughter, Polly, when she comes to London on her way to France. And Polly traveled with another young woman named Sally Hemings. And before their relationship totally fell apart due to politics. The one real sticking point in the friendship between Abigail Adams and Thomas Jefferson was that he owned slaves. This was probably the biggest thing before that dissolution of their friendship that she thought was a failing of his. And so she really was uncomfortable with. With that. When they got to Washington City, they were the first presidential couple to live in Washington, new capital of Washington City, and to live in what's now called the White House, what was then called the President's Mansion. She was very uncomfortable with the use of enslaved labor to build the buildings of the Capitol of what was supposed to be a free republic. And she writes about these things. So there are a lot of instances when she comments on this and also when she does things in her personal life to try to, you know, assist people and change their lives for the better, to at least affect the kind of change that she herself could. And of course, this statistic just blows us away. John Adams and his son, John Quincy Adams, were the only two of the first 12 presidents who neither owned people nor. Or supported the institution of slavery.

[Interviewer]

So she's using her influence then, in all the ways that she can to support for what she believes in, in the times that she's living in.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Exactly. And that's basically the theme of her life. You know, she might not be able to affect change writ large in all the ways that she would like or on all the issues that concern her. But Abigail Adams makes a habit out of affecting the change that she is capable of affecting. And I find this extremely inspirational and hopeful because I think a lot of us in modern life, there are things that we wish could be different. There are changes that we wish we could see, but we're just one person. What can we possibly do? Well, we may not be able to fix those things or. Or make those big impacts, but there is something that we can do. We can do it in our families, in our communities, on the local scale. And local change is important change, personal change is important change. And so I think she leaves that legacy to us to do what it is you can do.

[Interviewer]

What a lovely way of putting it. Thank you for that. And she works alongside Martha Washington as well. So Martha Washington is. I know we don't use this term then, but the First Lady. And Abigail becomes the second Lady.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

How does she work to both in that position, the second, and then eventually first, how does she shape this unofficial office? What sort of legacy do we see from her?

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

It is quite a significant legacy. And interestingly, a lot of what she comes to believe and influence, she came to solidify her thinking about while in Europe, because for five years she lived with John in France, the Netherlands and England, and she observed a lot there that helped her figure out what she thought about the way things were developing back in America and what things maybe could be borrowed, what things should be outright rejected. And so she was very surprised and shocked by the disparity in wealth between the richest and the poorest. She was, frankly pretty disgusted by what she saw as some of the lewd manners and outright hedonism of the French aristocracy. She saw some pretty shocking things happening right out in public by some of the aristocrats. And we recounted some of those in the book. And we always like to say that the crazier something is, the more likely it is to be true. And that is absolutely the case in these scenes. She was initially completely confused and then amused by the British lady's habit of using calling cards. Because, you know, someone would visit you, and you would maybe not be home or you wouldn't be able to receive, so they would leave a card. And now you were beholden to return that visit, but you might go there, and they might not be home and they might not be receiving. So now you leave the car. And she was like, when does it end? You just keep going in circles.

[Interviewer]

Just the cycle of calling cards.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

The cycle of calling cards. You're just buried under this avalanche of cards. And so, you know, she made a lot of observations about her time. She found court life to be very rigid and formal, very hierarchical. And therefore, she felt like it was also very superficial. It wasn't a way to be able to really get to know people or have meaningful conversations. So she took all of those observations back to the United States with her. And as the second lady, she did advise Lady Washington on what might be the kind of social life that would serve the politics of the early republic. And ultimately, historians refer to this as parlor politics. Right? The social side, where the networking and the influence and the backroom deals and the like are all going to happen. And one of the things that she advises on is, is instead of this calling card situation, and there was still some of that, but that they should hold levies where Mrs. Washington and herself and some of the other ladies in the cabinet would hold parties, basically on different nights, and then all of society could come to them. And Abigail really enjoyed, during her time as the second lady, the bit of ceremony that came from getting to sit on the dais with Mrs. Washington. And there was a moment when another lady had sat in Abigail's chair, and Abigail was absolutely tickled because President Washington came and he escorted that lady away and reminded her that that was Mrs. Adams chair. So she did like that little bit of, you know, prestige Prestige that she got from the role, but she guided what became the parlor politics with her role as President Adams's primary political advisor. She not only began to shape what the first lady role could be, but both friends and critics sometimes referred to her as Mrs. President because she was so influential. And in American history, we often tend to think of James Madison's wife, Dolley Madison, being the lady who really fashions what the first lady role becomes. And I think that's true. But I do think it starts with Abigail Adams.

[Interviewer]

I hope our listeners are getting a sense here of just what a big life this is. She's obviously moved from being an entrepreneurial woman living alone on the home front while her husband is doing the business of war. She becomes a diplomat's wife and negotiator's wife. She's making all these moves herself, moving into the highest offices in the land. We haven't yet talked about her role as a mother and how she feels about motherhood. I wonder if we can bring this in a little. And also, obviously, she's mother of another president. So can we talk about this side of Abigail's life?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Well, the two things that she's best known for are all those letters that you mentioned a moment ago and the fact that she was the wife of one president and the mother of another. Had a total of six children. Four lived to adulthood. Her oldest was another Abigail, whom they nicknamed Nabby. And then she had three sons, John Quincy, who went on to become president, Charles and Thomas. And she could sometimes be a stern mother in sort of the no nonsense New England Yankee way. But mostly she was a quite, quite loving and affectionate mother. She referred in her letters to her children as her little flock and her little charmers. And she was a mother in a really challenging time. There were all these illnesses going around. The war was literally refugees and soldiers and injured soldiers and the like were going right past her home on the daily. And she would was taking in injured soldiers while trying to keep her children safe. And she's also responsible for their education. And this was something that really concerned her because not only was it difficult in a time of war to do this for her boys, but it was especially difficult to do this for her daughter. And she was very concerned that her daughter have more educational opportunities than she herself have. And so she had a very good friend, another patriot lady from Massachusetts named, named Mercy Otis Warren, who is sometimes known as the voice or the conscience of the revolution because she wrote quite a lot. She was also one of America's first, historians and historians, particularly of the American Revolution. She was quite a learned lady and Abigail really looked up to her and admired her. And she asked her if she could take Nabby in to give her an education in history and politics and literature and things that Abigail worried that maybe she wasn't equipped to give Nabby herself. And so, you know, at really a pretty big sacrifice to herself, she sends Nabby away. Nabby is the oldest of her children and therefore the most capable of helping out around the farm or helping with the younger children. But Abigail really believes that this education is more important. And then with the boys, Abigail makes quite a bold and courageous decision that for part of their education, she agrees to send them across, at least two of them across this war torn sea with their father to begin a diplomatic and political career and to become immersed in language and culture by sending them overseas. And if their ship had been captured by the British, John at a minimum would have been arrested and maybe hanged for his treason against the British. And then what would have happened to these little boys? But as she thought about the alternative, keeping them, you know, tied to her apron strings, she writes that this is the world that they're going to have to live in. And to not allow them the opportunity would be to fashion a padlock upon the mind. And that was not something that she was willing to do. And so she lets them go. And it's extremely difficult for her to do so. She remains quite close to her children, although they all go through difficult times that, you know, strain and stress the relationship. As happens in life, she ends up seeing Nabi through a terrible, not only diagnosis of breast cancer, but Nabi undergoes, in their own home, one of the first ever mastectomy surgeries in U.S. history. For the rest of Abigail's life, she is a regular advisor to her son John Quincy, whose rising star she can already see and is trying to guide him along the way. So she was a very active mother. She could be stern sometimes, but mostly she was quite loving. And this is why we called the novel a Founding Mother, because she raises both these children and the new nation at the same time through these very challenging circumstances.

[Interviewer]

From what you've been saying, what's coming across is a very pragmatic and savvy woman and aware of the influence that she can have within her family, within the world that she's operating in. And I wonder, did you have this sense of her before or is this something that came out as you and Stephanie were writing the book? Is there anything else that came out for you as well.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

I think we had a general sense that this was who Abigail was, but the real breadth and depth of it, particularly with, for example, those entrepreneurial activities, was something that surprised us. While we were working on it, we didn't realize just how many investments that she made. She made investments in securities and purchased land. And because women weren't allowed to do these things, she actually had to survive of involve her cousin, a man to sign the contracts and the like, because she wasn't legally allowed to do this. We did not realize because John's career was as a country lawyer and his travels to build the nation didn't allow him to actually do that job. Abigail is making all this money through her entrepreneurial activities that allows the Addams family to emerge from the Revolutionary War fairly financially stable, when a lot of other major families suffered to some degree or even emerged financially ruined. And so that wasn't because of John, that was because of Abigail. And then at the end of her life, when the cumulative total of all of her entrepreneurial business and investments had accrued interest and the like, she had quite a tidy amount of that pin money. And she did something that was, we thought, really fascinating and again, admirable, which was she wrote a will and she left that money to the other women in her life with the belief that you couldn't be truly independent unless you had financial independence, which is such a modern thought, and I think something that women will absolutely resonate with.

[Interviewer]

With.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

But, you know, this goes back to what I was saying before. She couldn't force women to have rights. She could not make the country provide educational opportunities for women everywhere. But what she could do was make the lives of the women around her, in her community and her family, better and more secure. So basically, the last thing she said, the last thing she does in her life, is leave her wealth to these other women so that they could experience this independence. And so, you know, things like these revelations which came out of the research and weren't things that we knew going in just made her that much more impressive and inspirational because that's the kind of change that we can all potentially affect. And I just thought that was, to me, made her even more of a role model and even more of someone that, you know, I could look up to and I could really learn lessons from what she did in her own life.

[Interviewer]

That's a wonderful sense of Abigail. I think, to leave this episode on that she was a remarkable woman with lots to admire. Laura, is there any closing thought you'd like to leave our listeners with today, as we think of her 250 years

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

old, I would just say that I think certainly in the United States, but in the uk, in lots of places around the world, our society and our government, they need our active participation. And I think that's what a lot of these ladies that we've written books about, and especially Abigail Adams, remind us that we have a role to play to make our world better, to make our countries better, to make our government better, our communities better. And in the United States we have this phrase that comes out of our founding documents to make a more perfect union. And the world, our countries, our communities, they're never gonna be perfect. But what can we do to make them more so wonderful.

[Interviewer]

Laura, thank you so much for your time in talking to us about Abigail Adams today. A reminder that your book is a founding mother and I encourage all of our listeners to go and check it out. Thank you so much.

[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host Eleanor Evans]

That was now as historian and writer Laura Kamoy, speaking to Eleanor Evans, a founding mother co authored by Kamoy and Stephanie Dray, is out now. And for more on the American Revolution, don't miss Eleanor's Sunday series. You can find more details in the episode. Description.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Historian and Writer Laura Kamoy]

Chrome.

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[Podcast Host Eleanor Evans]

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