← HistoryExtra podcast
HistoryExtra podcast
Christmas history: everything you wanted to know
00:51:45
Did Oliver Cromwell ban mince pies? And why does Santa wear red? George Goodwin responds to listener questions on festive history
Loading summary
Transcript56 lines
- [00:01]
Timothee Chalamet
70,000 people are here and Bob Dylan is the reason for it. Inspired by the true story. If anyone is gonna hold your attention on stage, you have to kind of be a freak. Are you a freak? Hope so. And starring Timothee Chalamet as Bob Dylan. He defied everyone. Turn it down. He lied to change everything.
- [00:21]
George Goodwin
Make some noise.
- [00:22]
Timothee Chalamet
BD Timothee Chalamet Edward Norton Elle Fanny Monica Barbaro A complete unknown Only theater's Christmas Day Ricky Darr Under 1790 minute without parrot this episode is brought to you by US Cellular. Some things are worth waiting for, like getting your diploma or finding the right partner. You know what's not worth waiting for? The cable guy. Fortunately, USLLR's home Internet is so simple to install, you can do it yourself and it's just $39.99 per month when bundled with a wireless plan with a three year price lock guarantee. US Cellular Home Internet made simple without the waiting terms apply. Visit uscellular.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you. Choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our Rebel energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros. App for a free medium drink plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink Reward upon registration. 14 day expiration terms apply. See DutchBros.com this episode is brought to you by AWS. Amazon Q Business is the generative AI assistant that can securely understand your business data, summarize results, and streamline tasks. Learn what Amazon Q Business can do for you@aws.com LearnMore.
- [01:50]
Ellie Cawthorn
Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. Did Oliver Cromwell ban mince pies? When did people first give Christmas presents? And why does Santa wear red? Well, in honor of the festive season, today we're bringing you a classic episode from our archive. In it, I speak to George Goodwin, historian and author of Christmas A Celebration of Festive Lore, to answer listener questions all about the history of the festive period. Let's start with a question from Lavimarie, who was one of our Twitter followers who asked, when did people start gathering together for Christmas parties?
- [02:37]
George Goodwin
Well, thank you very much indeed, Ellie. Well, with that one, that takes us straight in to the fact that the celebration for Christmas really stems from the fact that there has long been a and I should say for the secular part of Christmas, there has long been a celebration of the Shortest day of the year, the midwinter celebration. It's the winter solstice. And it goes all the way back to Saturnalia, the Roman festival of Saturnalia, between the 17th and 23rd December. And of course, there were celebrations by the Saxons and the Vikings, and that's where Yule comes from. And as for Christmas, you know, people sort of gathering for celebrations for Christmas. Well, the secular part of Christmas has a lot to do with Saturnalia and Yule. And just to give you an idea of that, I've got a piece by the Roman writer Lucian in the role of the priest of Saturn, a sort of kind of lord of misrule. And this was written as early as the second century ad, and he says, during my week, the seeress is barred, no business allowed, drinking and being drunk, noise and games and dice, appointing of kings and feasting of slaves singing naked, clapping of tremulous hands and occasional ducking of corked faces in icy water. Such are the functions over which I preside. And of course, I mean, Saturn has come down to us in other ways as well. It's old Father Time, less charmingly as the Grim Reaper, and of course, much more happily he gives his name to Saturday. But as far as Yule is concerned, I mean, they had their own sort of traditions for feast. Well, of course it was all about feasting and drinking. But they had, just as with Saturnalia, there was the decoration with greenery to give the idea of spring and the new year and also of light, lots and lots of light again, the idea of the rebirth of the year. And they had a Yule log, which, unlike the sort of the modern chocolate Swiss roll version, was actually a proper log to burn all over the festival. So in terms of sort of answering that, the Christmas parties, it goes back a very, very long time again.
- [05:14]
Ellie Cawthorn
So that leads us on to one of our next questions from Josephine Wong, which is, does Christmas have any pagan origins?
- [05:21]
George Goodwin
Well, on the face of it, it would look as if. It certainly does in the way that it kind of clicks together with, you know, our Christmas and as we mentioned before, you know, the Midwinter festival.
- [05:38]
Timothee Chalamet
And.
- [05:38]
George Goodwin
And it would also sort of look as if as soon as the Christians decided, or the church decided that the Christmas Day was definitely the birth of Christ, was definitely on the 25th of December, that all they did was, okay, what we're going to do is we're going to do a takeover of the pagan festival. Not at all. I mean, there was no decision actually on the. On the day of Christ's birth until 354 was the day that the Church decided that he was born on Christmas Day. And from that point they fought very, very hard against the idea that the festival of Christmas, which was actually called Christmas later on. But we'll come back to that. But the festival would not be linked with the pagan version. And this was the case right up to when St Augustine came over to England in the 579. And at that stage he came with a omission from Pope Gregory the Great, which is, well, now that our festival is well established, let's bring in the heathen pagans by letting them have some of their sort of festival festivities. But at the same time, why don't we have a mass celebration, a proper religious celebration, by baptizing thousands, which is basically what happened. But the reason why 25 December was chosen originally was because the important date actually was the spring equinox, when the Church believed that was the date on which God created the world. So, of course, the creation of Jesus at the Annunciation, 25th of March, beginning of a new world, if you like. And of course, the 25th of March is exactly nine months before the 25th of December.
- [07:55]
Ellie Cawthorn
So now we've spoken a bit about the origins of Christmas. A lot of the questions that we had in were to do with traditions. So Siobhan O'Farrell on Facebook asked, are there any strange Christmas traditions that have been discontinued? And we also had another question from Emily M725 who said that she is studying Tudor Christmas at school. Can you tell us about some of the traditions from Tudor Christmas?
- [08:22]
George Goodwin
Well, taking the sort of the disappearing traditions. Well, and these would have been ones during the Tudor period. Well, let's take mumming. Mumming was when people would arrive at your door and they would be in all kinds of strange costumes. The key thing is that you wouldn't actually be able to tell who they were. And bumming, obviously they didn't talk to identify themselves. They would just sort of point in various directions and you would have to guess who they were. Well, as you can imagine, this was an absolutely brilliant way of acting in a criminal fashion. So the fact that that one has gone is probably quite good.
- [09:13]
Ellie Cawthorn
Sounds a bit like trick or treating.
- [09:15]
George Goodwin
It is definitely like trick or treating. And the problem was that it was more likely to be trick than treating. And there was another one on a similar level, wassailing. This is an old tradition again, going way, way back where. It was based on the idea of pouring wassail, sort of cider or beer onto fruit trees. This was kind of the origin of it to encourage their growth for the next year. But it developed into the creation of a drink which would be brought to your door and there would be sort of the wassail song would accompany it. And again, this could be a bit dodgy because people would sort of turn up at your door and say, well, have a drink and we'll do a little song for you and can we have some money, please? And of course, the drink could have been absolutely disgusting. So that's another one which has gone. But a rather sort of a nice one to deal with this potential criminal activity was the waits. Now, the waits were, if you like, the local village's security group who would come around Christmas time and they would play their musical instruments and they would sing to you. And that was a rather nicer way of doing it. Now, to come to the Tudor Christmas point, I'm going to sort of deal with the later period, the Elizabethan period, into that of James I. And we can identify the elements of Christmas which were enjoyed by sort of well to do families because they were listed in a court Christmas masque at the court of James I and vi. And it was the first appearance of Father Christmas as a kind of personified figure. He hadn't really been given this sort of personality before. Anyway, he comes on stage and it was a pretty wonderful stage because it was put together by Inigo Jones and Ben Johnson did the play and Christmas. His mass listed the various elements of Christmas which were under threat from the Puritans. And these were misrule, where you had the sort of the world turned upside down, rather on the sort of. On the lines that I said before with ancient Rome, when the slaves became the masters. And the other way round, Carol mince pie, gambol post and pear, which was a card game and New Year's gift. And then of course at the end we have mumming wassail offering, which is giving an offering and baby cake, which was a predecessor of our Christmas cake today. And the Puritans were basically against all celebration at this time because they regarded it as frivolous and it was a throwback, as they saw it, as to the Catholicism of Rome, which they absolutely abhorred.
- [12:38]
Timothee Chalamet
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their US based restoration specialist will fix it guaranteed or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with Lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Imagine a world class graduate education that's accessible, flexible and designed for career impact. That's Harvard Extension School. Build actionable knowledge and skills in challenging online classes taught by Harvard faculty and industry experts. Explore new opportunities and expand your network with high achieving professionals from around the world part time learning real world impact. This is Harvard on your terms. Learn more at extension harvard.edu Spotify Moving.
- [14:01]
Ellie Cawthorn
On from traditions to some of the most familiar aspects of Christmas so AgroBiodiverse asked, what is the earliest depiction that we know of of the Nativity scene?
- [14:15]
George Goodwin
Well, that was by St. Francis, no less, in Greccio in Lazio in 1223. But the Nativity scene was also acted out. So you get the Nativity scene and the first Nativity play all in one go.
- [14:34]
Ellie Cawthorn
It's amazing that there's a record of that. Another what's the oldest question that we had was from Jessica Roberts on Facebook, who asked, what's the oldest known Christmas song or carol?
- [14:46]
George Goodwin
Well, the word carol, of course, is derived from the Greek choros, which is basically a circle dance with singing. Now, the first English carol is completely secular and it's in Norman French, so please forgive my Norman French on this. It was entitled Seignior Hor Entende, and it dates all the way back to the early 13th century in the time of King John. And it exhorts everyone to keep open house and to be ready to ply a neighbour with drink until he nods his head and sleeps by day. And as I said, it's written in Norman French until the final Anglo Saxon call of wassail, which I mentioned, and its response of drink ale. Now, the first religious carol, as before, that's down to Francis of Assisi, because he very much supported this form. But it was an unknown English Franciscan who wrote, a child is born amongst man. And that was at some point before 1350. And of course, if we go back to the secular, I mean one of the and also to the previous question, I mean one of the favorite sort of carols of medieval and in fact, early modern England was 1 in 50 from 30, 15, 21. The boar's head Carol. With its great line, the boar's head, as I understand, is the rarest dish in this land.
- [16:31]
Ellie Cawthorn
Well, that is the perfect link to my next set of questions because as has already become apparent, one of the obsessions of Christmas is of course, food and drink. And we've discussed this already, but a lot of people have asked quite specifically to, for us to talk about Christmas food. So Anna Lillyhook on Facebook said, can you please tell us about Christmas food through the ages?
- [16:55]
George Goodwin
Well, I suppose that does lead in because, I mean, the Boar's head, that was kind of top of the range in medieval England. It was an extremely laborious process, which I won't go into. But basically you could either roast it or if you were very, very rich, you would cook it in where you would pull the bits out and you would marinate them in red wine and then you would, then you would reform the head and you would cook it all in red wine for hours and hours and hours. Actually, Lucy Worsley did a Tudor Christmas and they recreated it for her and she tried a piece and she announced that she thought it was not very nice.
- [17:39]
Ellie Cawthorn
Have the main themes of Christmas food generally been that it's rich and it's luxurious?
- [17:43]
George Goodwin
Oh, well, yes. I mean, if you could afford it, I mean, if you were a poor peasant, I mean, it would just be sort of a few scraps of meat and bacon that you would have saved up. But as time sort of progressed, I mean, as we moved into the sort of the 18th and the 19th century, again sort of dwelling on the English side of Christmas. The key dishes, of course, for Christmas and all great celebratory occasions were roast beef and plum pudding. And of course this, or rather I should say plum porridge in its original creation, and this was, if you like, it could be sort of described as beef and more beef because the porridge was made with meat stock. It's all actually a bit stomach churning, but I mean, I can give you the recipe if you'd like.
- [18:41]
Ellie Cawthorn
Yes, please. A lot of people do search online if you type in historical Christmas for recipes. So I think a stomach churning beef based fruit porridge is exactly what we're after right now.
- [18:54]
George Goodwin
Well, I actually, quite amusingly, I read this out to the people at Ham House. They were the volunteers and I read it out and I said, it really is pretty disgusting, isn't it? And they said, no, no, we've tried it ourselves, we think it's absolutely delicious, but I think we'll let the listeners decide. Here we are. Take a leg and shin of beef to 10 gallons of water. Boil it very tender and when the broth is strong, drain it out. Wipe the pot and put in the broth again. Slice six penny loaves, thin, cutting off the top and bottom. Put some of the liquor to it, cover it up and let it boil a quarter of an hour and then put it in your pot, let it boil a quarter of an hour. Then in five pounds of currants, let them boil a little, not a boiling here, as you can tell. And put in 5 pounds of raisins and 2 pounds of prunes and let them boil till they swell. Then put in three quarters of an ounce of mace, half an ounce of cloves, two nutmegs, all of them beat fine and mix it with little liquor, cold and put them in a very little while. Then take off the pot and put in three pounds of sugar, a little salt, a quart of sack, two pints of sweet, which are two pints of sweet sherry, a quart of carrot and the juice of two or three lemons. There's no joy about it. You may thicken with sago instead of bread, if you please. Pour them into earthen pans and keep them for use. What do you think, Ellie? Do you fancy that?
- [20:27]
Ellie Cawthorn
I don't think it's for me, not on my Christmas table, I don't think.
- [20:31]
George Goodwin
Well, I don't think you're alone because there was a Swiss visitor called Cesar de saussure who in 1720. The soup is called Christmas porridge and is a dish few foreigners find to their taste. I must describe it to you for it will amuse you. You must stew dried raisins, plums and spice in broth. Rich people add wine and others beer and is a great treat for English people, but I assure you, not for me.
- [20:59]
Ellie Cawthorn
So that is an amazing entry, isn't it? I think I'd be with him. I mean, a lot of listeners will have in their freezers at the moment the all important turkey. So that is something that people have asked about. And Uncle Juma, which is a brilliant name on Instagram, asks, did the tradition of eating turkey originate in Britain or North America?
- [21:24]
George Goodwin
Well, the Americans have one great advantage, of course, which is that turkeys come from North America. And of course the thought is that they must have had turkey at the original Thanksgiving in 1621. But actually there is no proof that they had turkey. I mean, they were turkeys around. I think ducks and geese are mentioned, but there's no mention of turkey at all. So when Thanksgiving started was officially in 1863 by Abraham Lincoln. And it caught on during the late 19th century in America. And as time went on things, Thanksgiving became more and more the thing, and turkey became more and more part of Thanksgiving. Now here. Well, of course, we know that in Dickens A Christmas Carol that poor Bob Cratchit has got a very, very meager goose to provide for his family. But Scrooge, when he's seen the light and decided that he's going to become nice Scrooge to Bob Cratchit, is he takes along a large turkey dinner for the Cratchits. And turkey really came to the fore in the 1840s with a lot of our common current traditions, as no doubt we'll chat about in a bit. But it was a luxury food. I mean, it really didn't become the fallback position for. For Christmas, which I have not been allowed to have because my children sacked me from cooking Christmas lunch some time ago. But as far as England is concerned, it was really the 1950s and refrigeration, the ability to refrigerate these birds, which actually made turkey much more popular.
- [23:28]
Ellie Cawthorn
Yeah. Doesn't go back as far as you think. And while we're talking about food, there is one more thing I wanted to ask you you about. I was in Aldi this week buying mincemeat so I could make my own mince pies. And the guy behind the till said to me, oh, I'm from Poland. And I just never understood why you British want to have mincemeat inside a sweet pie. And then I'd realized that it's actually fruit. So I think mince pies are a slightly strange food. What do we know about the history of them?
- [23:58]
George Goodwin
Well, let's go back to our Swiss friend, Cesar d'estelle. Sure. On that one. Because he talked about Christmas pies and he says everyone likes them. And he said they are made with chopped meat, currants, beef, suet and other good things. You never taste these dishes except for two or three days before and after Christmas, and I cannot tell you the reason why. But he did like them. He did like the mince piece. Again, it was in the 19th century when, just as with the plum pudding, that over the century, the meat disappeared and the lovely sweet elements which were in there before basically took over and became the complete mince pie. Now, of course, the mince pie, quite controversial. I mean, as we've seen it was one of the things that the Puritans didn't like. And one reason they didn't like them was because of the shape they were made in the shape of the manger in Catholic England. And they had a representation of baby Jesus. Now, I'm not quite sure whether he appeared in pastry on top of the pie or he appeared in pastry in the pie. I think probably in the pie, maybe with a bit of pastry folded over so that, you know, you could see his head. But it was regarded as completely idolatrous by the Puritans. And of course, lots of people have said, you know, did Oliver Cromwell, did he ban the mince pie? Well, he certainly didn't ban the mince pie, though, of course. I mean, the Puritans did close down Christmas, particularly when it fell. This is after they'd taken over. I mean, although Cromwell wasn't in Parliament, he was away with the army when in 1643, when the Scots joined the English in fighting Charles I. One of the parts that the Scots absolutely insisted on was that there should be a fast day on the last Wednesday of each month. Now, in 1647, the Wednesday, last Wednesday of the month was actually Christmas Day. And they did sort of say, oh, right, you know, fasting today, people weren't even allowed to go to church. So that's where the idea that they banned Christmas came from. But this whole idea of him banning the mince pie, no, it didn't happen.
- [26:37]
Ellie Cawthorn
So if we are moving on from the dining table to the Christmas tree and the presents underneath it, mattclement97 asks, when did gift giving first become associated with Christmas?
- [26:51]
George Goodwin
Well, certainly, you know, we've discovered, again, talking about the Puritans, that New Year's gift was around in late Tudor England. But in fact, the idea of gift giving. And if we talk again about Christmas as a winter festival and again go back to ancient Rome, this time we'll have a quote from the first century and the poet Marshall who said, I hate the crafty and mischievous arts of presence. That is, you know, the idea you had to give gifts according to your station. So, you know, to keep in with people above you socially, you had to give them gifts, but obviously not too rich a gift, because then they would think, oh, you're pushing it a bit, you know, that's. It doesn't really fit your station. And of course, you'd also expect to have gifts given to you and you would give a sweetener to people who you believed were below you in station. And it chimes With Jonathan swift in the 18th century, he wrote, I shall be undone here with Christmas boxes. Again, it was on the same principle of giving out gifts and it was really mainly for adults. It was kind of like an adult festival. I mean, children really didn't come into this properly until the 19th century.
- [28:18]
Ellie Cawthorn
Of course, in the UK we have Christmas Day and then on the 26th of December we have boxing Day. Traditionally, I don't know, I spend it lying on the sofa watching films. But Sarah Soldnik asks, please explain boxing to this American listener. What do we know about the history of this day?
- [28:36]
George Goodwin
Yeah, I mean, in terms of one's first thought, I mean, is it the time when half the nation comes out and fights the other half of the nation with boxing gloves that they've been given in their Christmas stockings? Fortunately not. I mean, it does refer back to this idea of Christmas boxes. Now it's the present giving has sort of moved from New Year to this Boxing Day. And there is a sort of a predecessor in St. Stephen's Day was the 26th. He was the first Christian martyr, when the country squire would expect his tenants to come along and enjoy some mince pies with him. And of course they would expect a gift. Rather, on the Roman tradition, he would give them gifts, but he expected a very big gift from them. And that was the approach.
- [29:32]
Ellie Cawthorn
If we're looking at what people were searching for online, about the history of Christmas, we've got a lot of different. Just queries about different aspects of Christmas traditions and practices. So I wonder if I could fire a few of those at you. So, first up, what is the history of Christmas trees?
- [29:52]
George Goodwin
Ah, now the. They did come from Germany, now, that is agreed. But they didn't, as is thought, they didn't originate with Prince Albert. He definitely popularised them. There was a very, very large piece in the Illustrated London News of 1848, where massive, massive, great sort of feature with the Royal family spending Christmas at Windsor with enormous Christmas trees and lots and lots and lots of presents. And this really sort of took off, as you can imagine. Everybody wanted to be like the Royal Family and Christmas trees became very, very fashionable. But he was not the first royal to introduce a Christmas tree. It was actually Queen Charlotte, George III's queen, who was the first one to bring the Christmas tree over from Germany.
- [30:51]
Ellie Cawthorn
That's a good amendment to, I think, what is a common misconception about Prince Albert bringing over the Christmas tree. And next up we have what's the history of Christmas stockings?
- [31:03]
George Goodwin
Well, Christmas stockings actually goes a long way back that goes back to St Nicholas, who. St Nicholas is the patron saint, if you like, of Christmas. He became the Dutch Saint Nicholas. Sinterklaas is the Dutch for Saint Nicholas. And of course Sinterklaas became Santa Claus. And one of these stories about St. Nicholas is that there were three women who were very, very poor. They didn't have any money, they didn't have dowries to give to get married. And he actually gave them each a stocking of gold. And that's where the Christmas stocking comes from originally. And of course this was taken up by the Dutch with the celebration of St Nicholas's Day. And that actually was the 6th of December. But of course it's Farrar Santa Claus, it moved to the 25th. And Santa Claus is actually very much an American invention.
- [32:09]
Ellie Cawthorn
Ah, how so?
- [32:11]
George Goodwin
Well, Santa Claus was, it was created by Washington Irving, was sort of the original seed for it. Because in around, about sort of 1809, 1810, New York was a new sort of metropolis, a growing metropolis. And the citizens, those prominent citizens or some of them as part of the New York Historical Society, wanted to create all kinds of traditions for this city. And I mean create. So Washington Irving rather ridiculed them by saying that St. Nicholas had in his wagon which normally was used to drop presents for children on the Dutch principle. Because of course New York was New Amsterdam before. And he pointed the way to these settlers to say this is the place pointing down, this is the place where you should settle. So that's how New York came about, according to him. And of course this rather caught on this idea of this flying St. Nicholas. And through various sort of creations we ended up with Santa Claus. And Santa Claus was definitely on the march because it tied in with the early, the sort of the 1840s onwards, present giving tradition. And of course you have Santa Claus, this great present giving figure, you have Father Christmas who sort of gave a few little bits and pieces and basically was a takeover. But clever, clever Brits we thought. Right, okay, okay. Well, this figure may be Santa Claus, but we'll call him Father Christmas. So in fact, Father Christmas is Santa Claus. Santa Claus is Father Christmas. The two are one. So I think both sides are happy. And of course this has happened around the world. I mean, per Noel in France and the Vinocs man in Germany, they're all Christmas figures. And in fact actually in Italy they had a rather sad sort of Christmassy figure, La Befana, but she's been overtaken by Babo Natale. So literally Daddy Christmas has become sort of the Italian favourite these days.
- [34:34]
Ellie Cawthorn
And La Befana. Am I right in thinking she was some kind of witch?
- [34:38]
George Goodwin
Yes, she basically was. Again, a little bit on the. The Sinterklaas approach, that good children would get something but naughty children would get a whacking. So, in fact, going back to the Dutch Sinterklaas, I mean, that was very much the case, that good children were left sweets and the bad children were left a broom for their parents to beat them with. But as you can imagine, I mean, in modern Holland, they tend to give four sweets. I mean, there's not a lot of beating going on. I'm delighted to. But actually, I mean, I've been told by Dutch friends that even in the Netherlands, Christmas is becoming more and more prominent. But I mean, obviously the two have been kept, because if you're a child, it's pretty good to have two lots of presents rather than one.
- [35:25]
Ellie Cawthorn
Traditions that we just now take for granted gradually build up layer by layer by layer until there's something almost unrecognisable from their first appearance. Another thing I wanted to ask about very quickly was Christmas crackers.
- [35:40]
George Goodwin
Oh, now, Christmas crackers, one of those wonderful inventions which happen through somebody has a kind of electric light bulb moment, if you like. In this case, it was a cracking log in a fire moment because there was this chap called Tom Smith. I mean, people have. Some people have said it wasn't Tom Smith, it was somebody else. But I believe it was Tom Smith who was a seller of wrapped sugar almonds. Now, he wanted to sell more and more of his wrapped sugar almonds. So he thought, well, can I come up with a gimmick to try and flog these things? So he was sitting by his fire and then it crackled. So he thought, aha. Right, now if I can get one of those new fangled little sort of strippy things which makes a crackling noise when you pull it. Why don't I wrap my sugar almonds and include this little thing that you can pull? And it took off. It took off. And the sugar almonds soon. No, we don't want the sugar almonds. We want the cracker effect. And that's where the crackers come from.
- [36:48]
Ellie Cawthorn
See, I'd quite like some sugared almonds in a cracker. That'd be wonderful.
- [36:53]
Timothee Chalamet
From your fryer to the table, it's a quick trip for crispy fries, but how about a crosstown delivery? McCain's? Sure. Crisp fries are designed to go from fryer to container to carrier to passenger seat across town during rush hour, down A shortcut that wasn't all that short to a doorstep before they hit the table. And that first bite, the crispiness, speaks for itself to the last bite. McCain's sure crisp fries go the distance. See how far our fries can take your business@surecrisp.com delivery@ New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com running.
- [37:53]
Ellie Cawthorn
So, a couple more questions. Many people will, of course, be familiar with the 12 days of Christmas, and that's something that a lot of people have searched for online. What's the history of the twelve days of Christmas?
- [38:05]
George Goodwin
Well, it was again, we go back to the early church who decided that the festival of Christmas, the religious festival of Christmas, as I said before, it would consist of 12 days. So that goes back to the Council of tours of 5, 5, 6, 7, and of course, counting down. The first day is Christmas. It's Christmas Day. I mean, the first day is Christmas Day. Christmas Eve is that. It's Christmas Eve. It's the eve of the festival of Christmas. So people are going to ask me, so how about then, the 12 days of Christmas? So where does that come from? Is there some great meaning to the twelve days of Christ Christmas? Well, actually, I have to disappoint you because all that stuff beginning with a partridge in a pear tree, that was just a children's game, a game of memory and forfeits in a 1780 children's book called Mirth Without Mischief. That's where it comes from. There's no great significance to it at all. Now, there was a Catholic priest called Father Stockart who did actually say that he'd found, going back to the mists of time, I think in the 1970s, the mists of time, that there were indeed there was a meaning to the partridge and the pear tree, etc, etc, and he'd found it in some old Irish Catholic texts. And when he was pressed on it to try and produce them, he said they'd actually been washed away in a flood in a church crypt. So I think that's very good. The dog has eaten my homework on that one. I'm afraid we have to go back to Mirth Without Mischief, and I hope that doesn't insult too many and hurt too many of your listeners. But I'm afraid, yeah, there's no meaning to it at all.
- [40:03]
Ellie Cawthorn
Fancy a Cuppa now, that's their Twitter handle. Spectacular Twitter handle. Asked a question which brought in two elements, really. Partly Prince Albert, who we've covered, but also partly Charles Dickens. But I wanted to just kind of broaden this out, to ask about the way in which our modern Christmas is really shaped by the Victorian era.
- [40:24]
George Goodwin
Very good question. Well, it is completely and utterly shaped by the Victorian era. And we have to. Let's sort of start off with a. If you like, a trio of novelists who basically held each other in the greatest regard. I mean, the first of these was Sir Walter Scott, and he has a few references to Christmas in Marmion, talking about, you know, the traditional Christmas. But Washington Irving, he comes up again. He was a great fan of Sir Walter Scott. He went to visit Sir Walter Scott because he was over here just after the Napoleonic Wars. Washington Irving, and he recreated a traditional English Christmas. He went to go and stay in various country houses and he recreated and in fact, some ways created a Christmas that was traditional. And a great fan of his was Charles Dickens. Now, Irving wrote Christmas at somewhere called Bracebridge hall, and Dickens wrote to Irving and he said how much he admired him and he wanted to be with him on the last coach of Christmas Eve to arrive at Bracebridge Hall. And he echoed him in creating a rural Christmas in the Pickwick Papers, in Christmas at Dingley Dell. But he also created the urban Christmas, you know, a time of great family sort of gathering and a time when children were very much included. They were having Christmas presents. So that was actually first. He first did that in the mid-1830s in one of the sketches by Boz, A Christmas Dinner and of course, most famously in A Christmas Carol. And he really was somebody who helped get across the idea of a family Christmas. But in a sense, he was riding a tide there because, again, with Prince Albert and in America, it was becoming very, very popular. It changed. I mean, Christmas became then a great family occasion and a time really to include children. And in fact, Washington Irving, back in his original creation, he very much included Christmas presents for children as well.
- [43:15]
Ellie Cawthorn
One of the big myths of Christmas. And whether it is true or not, this is something that always comes up when we talk about history of Christmas and people always ask it. So Wendy Arles did the honours this time on Facebook and asked, is it true that Father Christmas's outfit used to be green and then it was changed to red because red was Coca Cola's colour.
- [43:39]
George Goodwin
Now it was quite common for Father Christmas to be green. He could also be purple, he could be brown, he could be blue, he could be all sorts of colours. Now, when did he become red? Well, this is the BBC and this is a. If you like. This is kind of like a reverse advert because it wasn't Coca Cola at all. It was the person who went furthest in creating the sort of depiction of Santa Claus, Father Christmas, as we know today, a great artist called Thomas Nast. And that was way back in the 1870s. But the father Christmas in the sort of complete red suit with the fur trimmings and the proper hat, that was first drawn by actually an Australian artist, though he was based in New York, called Frank Nankivel. And he did that. The first I've been able to see in a Christmas edition of a magazine called Puck was 1902. Now, Coca Cola first took on board the red Father Christmas in their Christmas advertising. That was actually not till 1931, but I have to say, I mean, you know, fantastic art by the two sort of most famous artists, Haddon, Sunblom and then Norman Rockwell, really sort of, if you like, sort of grabbed the brand. So, I'm sorry, Coca Cola, to kind of take the brand recognition away. But you've done such a good job that people will be asking this question for a very long time to come.
- [45:29]
Ellie Cawthorn
And finally, as somebody who's written a book on the history of crime, Christmas and festive traditions, I did just want to throw in one question of my own, which is what's your own personal favourite historical Christmas tradition?
- [45:43]
George Goodwin
My favourite historical Christmas tradition. Now, that's actually a very good question because of course there are so many of them. I actually have to say that I am a real sucker for a Christmas carol. Not so much the sucker as my son who became a kind of Christmas carol junkie. I mean, he would gave one carol service to another. But I do actually like a Christmas carol and I think that that's a very nice note to. Gosh, that's a poor pun. A very nice note to end on.
- [46:21]
Ellie Cawthorn
That was George Goodwin speaking to me, Ellie Cawthorn, back in 2020. You can find out plenty more facts on festive history to amuse your family and friends over the Christmas period on our website historyextra.com.
- [46:40]
Timothee Chalamet
This episode is brought to you by Amazon. The holidays are here. And you know what that means. It's time to get your friends and family the gifts they deserve. Take the stress out of shopping with Amazon's great deals and low prices on a huge range of items from toys to tech and much more. Whoever you're gifting for, Amazon has great prices on everything you need this holiday season. Shop last minute deals now.