Cleopatra’s bloody rise to power

Summary

HistoryExtra Podcast: Cleopatra’s Bloody Rise to Power

Date: May 30, 2026
Host: [Name not specified, “Immediate”]
Guest: Dr. Islam Issa (Professor of Public Humanities, Birmingham City University; author of books including Alexandria, the City that Changed the World)

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Overview

This compelling episode explores the tumultuous ascent of Cleopatra VII to the Egyptian throne, against a backdrop of turbulent dynastic politics, Roman intervention, and bloody family rivalries. Dr. Islam Issa brings a fresh, research-informed perspective to Cleopatra’s character, intelligence, and the extraordinary challenges she navigated in her youth—from familial betrayals to strategic alliances with history-shaping figures like Julius Caesar. The episode seeks to move beyond the stereotypes and myths to reveal Cleopatra’s pragmatic decision-making and enduring legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wider Historical and Political Context

• Rome’s Interest in Egypt (03:28–06:31):

  • Egypt, under the Ptolemies, was a key breadbasket for Rome.
  • Rome’s involvement began to increase, particularly through financial support to Ptolemy X and XII.
  • Inheritance Crisis: Ptolemy X, denied rulership by his mother Cleopatra III, sought Roman support and in his will, bequeathed Egypt to Rome in the absence of a legitimate heir.
  • This will gave Rome future “legitimacy” to intervene, even though it was not immediately enacted.
  • The Ptolemaic dynasty’s tradition of sibling marriage was challenged as non-royal blood was introduced, further complicating questions of legitimacy.

  “The Romans... have made it clear that they don't want a woman to be in charge alone. So that's an interesting development because Cleopatra, as we'll see, is going to want to defy that idea of a woman ruling alone.” – Islam Issa (04:13)

2. Cleopatra’s Early Power and Family Dynamics

• Co-Regency with Brother Ptolemy XIII (06:31–08:39):

  • Cleopatra became co-regent with her much younger brother at age 17-18; he was around 10-11.
  • Early official documents bore only Cleopatra’s name, signifying her dominance.
  • Host notes the political tensions: “The relationship broke down between the siblings almost immediately.” (07:54)
  • Dr. Issa attributes the disruption to Ptolemy’s tutors and adult advisors seeking power through him, rather than direct sibling rivalry.

  “It's very much about what his tutors are telling him... I wouldn't imagine that her brother is actually the one causing the issues... but rather the people around him.” – Islam Issa (08:16)

3. Exile, Return, and Military Gambits

• Cleopatra Driven Into Exile & Army-Building (08:56–10:58):

  • With her brother’s faction in control, Cleopatra fled to Syria; Egyptian dynastic politics had a history of lethal outcomes.
  • In Syria, Cleopatra mustered support and returned with troops to challenge her brother’s regime.

  “She does flee for her life... but also to try to create an army that can come back and take control.” – Islam Issa (09:32)

• Unique Ambition and Competence:

  • Dr. Issa highlights her exceptional intellect, linguistic ability (learned Egyptian and Macedonian), and political instinct, arguing her decisiveness was outsize for her youth.

  “I think she's ahead of her age. And I also believe that she really is an ambitious individual. Some people are just wired differently, let's say.” – Islam Issa (10:26)

4. Historical Sources and Understanding Cleopatra (11:47–13:49)

• Dr. Issa discusses the creative detective work required to reconstruct Cleopatra’s psyche, including atmospheric research (engaging with Alexandrian locals for modern echoes of her legend).

• Alternative Narratives: He draws on medieval Arabic sources which focus on her intellect rather than beauty—contrasting with Roman portrayals.

  “There's absolutely no mention of how she looked and a lot of mention about how she was an intellectual, which I found refreshing and different.” – Islam Issa (12:54)

5. Julius Caesar’s Arrival and the Roman Factor

• Pompey’s Murder and Caesar’s Intervention (14:22–17:30):

  • Pompey, Caesar’s rival, sought refuge in Egypt but was killed by Ptolemy XIII’s advisors to curry favor with Caesar.
  • Caesar arrived with his army, allegedly furious about the murder, and took residence in Alexandria’s palace, consolidating control.

  “Julius Caesar at this stage is a massive celebrity, hugely respected and feared. He arrives in Alexandria... and immediately makes himself at home in the royal palace.” – Islam Issa (15:23)

• Egyptian Response:

  • The Alexandrian populace resented Roman intrusion; Dr. Issa notes economic and cultural pushback against Rome, such as increased Greco-Egyptian fusion in art and religion.

• Caesar Forces a Resolution (17:51–18:52):

  • Caesar arrested Ptolemy XIII and forced the siblings (Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII) to co-rule, assigning Cyprus to their siblings Arsinoe and Ptolemy XIV—an arrangement pleasing to none.

6. Downfall of Ptolemy XIII and Cleopatra’s Ascendancy

• Siege of Alexandria and Civil War (20:33–22:47):

  • Ptolemy XIII and sister Arsinoe led a rebellion, besieging Cleopatra and Caesar in the palace for months.
  • With arrival of Roman reinforcements, the Alexandrian army was routed, and Ptolemy XIII drowned in the Nile while fleeing.

• Pragmatism, Loyalty, and Identity:

  • Cleopatra’s alliance with Caesar was a calculated maneuver, likely motivated by survival of the dynasty over local loyalty.
  • Host: “So she's making a pragmatic decision to ensure the future at the expense of sacrificing some of her past.” (23:34)

  “She's recognized that Rome will either way, be victorious eventually... It was founded by her forefathers, so it's an adaptive process.” – Islam Issa (22:58)

7. Cleopatra and Julius Caesar: Realism vs. Myth

• Nature of Their Alliance (24:00–25:18):
  • Dr. Issa dismisses romanticized stories (e.g., Cleopatra arriving “wrapped in a carpet”), tracing this legend to Plutarch and later mythmaking.
  • He contends Cleopatra could have negotiated/bribed her way to Caesar without theatrics.

  “I don't think that Cleopatra needed to sneak into the palace. I think she could have talked her way in. If we're told that she's charismatic by Plutarch as well, and that she's diplomatic, I think she could have talked her way in, bribed her way in.” – Islam Issa (25:48)

8. The Birth of Caesarion and Its Implications

• The “Superchild” of Cairo and Rome (27:05–29:03):

  • Cleopatra’s son—nicknamed Caesarion (Little Caesar)—became an instant symbol, combining Egyptian and Roman heritage.
  • Despite Cleopatra’s open proclamations, Caesar denied paternity (likely for political reasons), creating a sensitive diplomatic challenge.

  “She's making no secret of who Caesarion's father is. She's telling everybody that this is Caesar's child. And she begins building a grand temple, the grand temple for the baby.” – Islam Issa (28:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Egyptian Political Intrigue:

  “The family now has a history, doesn't it, of killing one another?” – Podcast Host (09:04)

• On Historical Perception:

  “Trying to understand what's in her head, trying to piece things together from the city in which she was raised, from the dynasty, from her parents, from her character, so that we can build a slightly more accurate picture of this individual who's obviously had such. Such a lasting legacy.” – Islam Issa (11:25)

• On Cleopatra's Adaptability:

  “I think she's adapting, that's the way I'd put it. She's recognized that Rome will either way, be victorious eventually…It's an adaptive process.” – Islam Issa (22:58)

• On Source Critique:

  “Plutarch is relatively problematic because A, he's a century later, but B, it's anti Cleopatra, more pro Roman propaganda.” – Islam Issa (25:29)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:26–06:31] Setting the scene: Rome, Egypt, and Ptolemaic family intrigue
• [06:31–10:58] Cleopatra’s co-regency, early power struggles, and exile
• [11:47–13:49] Piecing together Cleopatra’s psyche; sources and methods
• [14:22–18:52] Julius Caesar and Roman intervention in Egypt
• [20:33–22:47] Siege of Alexandria; death of Ptolemy XIII
• [24:00–25:18] The Caesar-Cleopatra dynamic; reality vs. myth
• [27:05–29:03] Birth of Caesarion and the dynastic stakes

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Conclusion

This episode vividly brings to life the overlapping personal, political, and imperial dramas of Cleopatra’s rise. Dr. Issa and the host consistently focus on the complexity of Cleopatra as an individual—shrewd, intellectual, ambitious, and above all, pragmatic. By interrogating the sources—both ancient and alternative—this discussion challenges myths and reframes Cleopatra as not just a legendary beauty, but as a shaper of history at the crossroads of two worlds.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. It's the second episode today of our four part Sunday series exploring the world of Cleopatra. And I'm delighted to say that I'm joined once, once again by Islam Issa, professor of Public Humanities at Birmingham City University and author of books including Alexandria, the City that Changed the World. In today's instalment, we're going to be exploring the shifting sands that Cleopatra had to navigate to reach power from mighty overseas leaders to bloody family politics, Islam. Thank you so much for being back with us to discuss the life and times of Cleopatra. In this episode, we, we're gonna be focusing on her rise to power and some of the challenges that she faced when we left her at the end of the previous episode. Her father had just announced her co Regency in 52 BC. Before we get onto what happened next, I'd like to rewind just a bit to explore some of the wider context. Can you tell us about the relationship between Rome and Egypt and how the story of a man called Ptolemy X is important?

[Islam Issa]

Well, we're back with lots of Ptolemies.

[Podcast Host]

So many Ptolemies. Yes.

[Islam Issa]

And just to put it into context, Ptolemy XII is her father. So we're talk about Ptolemy X. I guess Egypt at this stage is a kind of breadbasket for Rome. Rome has got a huge population that needs bread and Egypt is able to provide that. At the same time, there's an increased Roman influence on Egypt. There's some danger as well to the Ptolemaic dynasty from the East. So the Romans are sort of de facto protecting Egypt as well. When it comes to Ptolemy X, there's a sort of context that we probably should think about. The Romans, as they're protecting Egypt, have made it clear that they don't want a woman to be in charge alone. So that's an interesting development because Cleopatra, as we'll see, is going to want to defy that idea of a woman ruling alone. So Cleopatra III at the time, is forced, so to speak, to pick a co regent. And she has two sons to pick from Ptolemy the 9th and Ptolemy the 10th. And she picks the 9th and exiles the 10th to Cyprus or gives him Cyprus to rule. Ptolemy X is not happy, so he seeks further support from Rome. And he wants military support, he wants financial support. But in return, and this is really key, he has in his will that should Egypt not have a legitimate heir, then it gets bequeathed to Rome. Now, we can only speculate as to why he'd make such an odd promise to Rome. My sense is that the collateral was just so large that he had to do something of the sort. And actually those loans are what give Rome the inclination that they can really control Egypt going forward. They don't act on that will immediately, but it's certainly something that we know Julius Caesar was aware of and will come on to Julius Caesar, no doubt. So even though they don't act on that will, it gives them the legitimacy, let's say, to intervene in Egypt. So Ptolemy X does something else because this sibling marriage that the Ptolemies have was intended to cement their power. And one thing that he does is, is that he introduces non royal blood into the family. So despite these massive attempts to keep the power within the family, he introduces illegitimate children into the mix and so does Ptolemy ix. And one of those is Cleopatra's father, who is known throughout his dynasty as Ptolemy the illegitimate. So there's a few developments there. The fact that Rome is intervening, the fact that they have a right to Egypt, if it's without a legitimate heir, Ptolemy XII will be an illegitimate heir. The fact they don't want a woman to rule alone. There's lots happening here and it's really

[Podcast Host]

interesting the ways in which this inter family dynamic is playing out across this massive sweep of history and geography. And I'm sure we'll explore some of those repercussions as we go. Coming back to our story of our Cleopatra, if you like, she became co regent with her brother ptolemy XIII in 51 BC. Can you talk a bit about their relationship? Do we know for instance if they married?

[Islam Issa]

So they very likely did marry, but we have to bear in mind that he was still a kid, so it's very much sort of on paper that he's co ruling.

[Podcast Host]

Do we know how old they are at this point in the story?

[Islam Issa]

So Cleopatra is co regent at 17, she's about 18 at this stage. Her brother will be 10, 11, not yet a teenager. The documents, actually the official documents from the time only have Cleopatra's name on them as sole ruler. So I don't think she was taking her brother seriously at that time. What's interesting is her father dies in March 51 BC. The Roman Senate only finds out about this several months later. So to me that's a suggestion that she doesn't want Rome to be in control. She's not bound to Rome immediately, she's trying to rule on her own terms because she knows that Rome will want her to be a co ruler with her brother. So she probably doesn't give them that information as quickly as she ought to

[Podcast Host]

do so she's doing it for external reasons. And the relationship broke down between the siblings almost immediately. Do we get a sense of what, given their massively young age, the dynamic was like between them?

[Islam Issa]

I think Cleopatra was ahead of her age. I think she was making decisions and I think she knew what her ambitions were. Her father had already taken her under his wing. As for her brother Ptolemy xiii, I think it's very much about what his tutors are telling him so. His tutors, his advisors, they think that they can wield some power from the situation. So I wouldn't imagine that her brother is actually the one causing the issues at this stage, but rather the people around him. But that's just my sense of the situation.

[Podcast Host]

So it's a bit of a red herring, you think, to focus on their relationship when actually there's other people who've got vested interests controlling what happens or trying to control what happens.

[Islam Issa]

Certainly the little brother's tutors and certainly, as we've said, this really influential republic, the Roman Republic.

[Podcast Host]

It's fascinating how interrelated this story is. And as we sort of alluded to, the relationship between these brother and sister breaks down almost entirely and Cleopatra is forced to flee to Syria. Can you tell us a bit about what happened then and I suppose what forced her to make that decision?

[Islam Issa]

Yeah, again, the sense is that her brother's tutors start to have some real power, that they are perhaps negotiating with Romans, they're certainly negotiating with the Egyptian priests, who still have some influence over the Egyptian population, and that eventually her brother is announced ruler and at that stage she is forced to flee. The family now has a history, doesn't it, of killing one another? So I think she does flee for her life in a way, but also to try to create an army that can come back and take control. So she goes to Syria, where her younger sister resides, and she spends some time there, where she rallies troops and she returns with those troops and her brother's army is waiting.

[Podcast Host]

I know I said just then that these are massively young people. Cleopatra already, at this point, sounds like someone who's making really smart and really big decisions. Do you think that says something about her personality? And does it tell us about the time that she was forced into be making these really big audacious moves?

[Islam Issa]

I get the sense that Cleopatra was trained from a young age by her father to take control of the dynasty at a time when he was struggling. And also that there's some personal elements there, like her personality, the fact that she learnt Egyptian, the fact that she learned the language of her ancestors, the Macedonian, her intelligence and ambition that are clear from the earlier years of her life. So, yes, she's young, but I think she's ahead of her age. And I also believe that she really is an ambitious individual. Some people are just wired differently, let's say. I believe she was an ambitious individual from a young age and it's really refreshing.

[Podcast Host]

And we'll return to this idea later in the series, it's really refreshing to focus on her intellect and her skills at managing a really complex and difficult political situation. Do you think we ought to give her more credit for these sorts of decisions?

[Islam Issa]

I believe it's really important to look beyond the headlines and to look at the psychology and just try to get into that character. And hopefully that's something we're doing in this series, because we've heard the Cleopatra story over and over again. Just thinking about her from a slightly different perspective, trying to understand what's in her head, trying to piece things together from the city in which she was raised, from the dynasty, from her parents, from her character, so that we can build a slightly more accurate picture of this individual who's obviously had such. Such a lasting legacy.

[Podcast Host]

Given the vastly long time ago in which these events were playing out, is it difficult to do that? Are there challenges that you need to overcome in order to try to get into her psyche?

[Islam Issa]

I mean, when I was writing a history of Alexandria, I really tried to get into the psyche of the key figures like Cleopatra and some of her ancestors. And in a way, I was disappointed when I returned to the present. That's how much I was really trying to get into their psyches. And I think it's like a puzzle. It's not easy, but it's doable because we have all these different aspects. Yes, we have the sources, the archival sources, we have the papyri, some interesting slabs, and then we also have the things we can piece together from the environment in which she was raised and the culture of the time.

[Podcast Host]

So you got to do some proper detective work of piecing these things together. Are there any particular sources or things that you drew on that you thought, oh, this is amazing?

[Islam Issa]

Well, there was a surprising source, which is the medieval Arabic writers, who present her very differently to how the Romans presented her. And they don't really, unless Oldie's an example. There's absolutely no mention of how she looked and a lot of mention about how she was an intellectual, which I found refreshing and different. And actually, those medieval Arabic sources are very much omitted from Western Egyptology, let's say. And the other interesting source was a kind of popular cultural source, but not the popular culture necessarily of the west, but the popular culture of the city in which she was raised, the city in which she ruled and died. So just being around Alexandria, yes, I went to the archives and did all that kind of research, but I did another kind of research that I call atmospheric research, which is basically sitting in cafes and talking to people, but just getting a sense of her presence in the city as a kind of popular cultural icon and the way in which that can help me understand who she is.

[Podcast Host]

That is so interesting. And we'll return to that idea in our fourth episode. For now, there's another character emerging who you've already alluded to, and that's Julius Caesar, and we should try to get into his psyche. It's unlikely that anyone watching this or listening to this has not heard of him. But for the sake of just introducing him onto the stage at this point in the story, can you tell us about what was happening with Julius Caesar? I think we're talking about 48 BC here. What was the political background that he was experiencing and how did that force him into making quite a big move?

[Islam Issa]

Well, Pompey is a figure that keeps coming up.

[Podcast Host]

Can you remind us who Pompey is?

[Islam Issa]

So Pompey's an influential figure in Rome who by this stage, is on the wrong side of Caesar, and they have slightly different opinions about how to progress the Roman Republic. But Pompey had hosted Cleopatra's father in Rome for the three years that Cleopatra spent there in her childhood, just as she was turning teenager. Now Pompey decides to seek refuge with Ptolemy xiii, in other words, Cleopatra's brother, because he thinks, well, Cleopatra's brother will know that I was friends with his father. And so when he arrives in Alexandria, actually Ptolemy XIII's advisors decide to kill him because they think that that will make Julius Caesar happy. Biographers say that Julius Caesar wasn't happy. You never know what he wants. But Caesar's essentially following Pompey to Alexandria. He also knows that Rome has a right to Egypt, so to speak, or allegedly, let's say, if there's no legitimate ruler. And he thinks that that's already happened with Cleopatra's father, Ptolemy, the illegitimate. So he arrives in Alexandria with an army. Julius Caesar. Julius Caesar at this stage is a massive celebrity, hugely respected and feared. He arrives in Alexandria and I'd say he probably wanted the money that was owed to him by the Ptolemies. And he arrives with an army, but immediately makes himself at home in the royal palace. And suddenly both Cleopatra and her brother are no longer in the palace.

[Podcast Host]

What sort of reception did he get, do we know?

[Islam Issa]

Well, it's never a good idea to arrive with an army. And the Alexandrians were known to quickly mobilize, protest, have mobs. There's all sorts of stories among the Alexandrians at the time about Julius Caesar being a disrespectful leader about how he doesn't respect the library of Alexandria. There's a story about how he jumps off a ship because he's so cowardly. So I don't think he's very popular in Egypt. The Romans generally not very popular. In fact, in Alexandria today, when you look at some of the Ptolemaic tombs from that kind of period, we see that they have lots of Egyptian motifs. So a way of countering the Roman influence was by really emphasizing that the Greco Egyptian cultures were combining. And I think that's fascinating to know that there was a kind of anti Roman sentiment through saying no, Greeks and Egyptians love each other. You know, we have a shared God in Serapis. This is our Alexandrian culture. So Caesar's not amazingly popular. There are interesting stories as well about how some pirates capture him and apparently he gets really annoyed about how little they ask for ransom because he thinks they should be asking for more. There's also the sense that he actually loves Alexander the Great and he goes to his mausoleum and that he wants to be like him. There's a story that he weeps at the mausoleum of Alexander the Great because he can't believe how much more Alexander the Great achieved compared to him.

[Podcast Host]

We get a real sense of his personality from all of this.

[Islam Issa]

Yeah. And he also has an autobiography, you know, which is written in the third person. Caesar did this and Caesar did that. So if I ever write a memoir I might try that out.

[Podcast Host]

Incredible. And do we know how Cleopatra and her family responded to this move by Julius Caesar? What happened next?

[Islam Issa]

Well, I've mentioned the powerful population of Alexandria, that mob, as they were called. And Ptolemy XIII resorts to them very quickly. They're a powerful tool at his disposal and so he tries, I guess to get a sort of a riot underway. But before they can really do so, Caesar has Ptolemy XIII arrested. So her brother is arrested. Alexandria's become so influenced by Rome that it now has like an assembly. So Caesar puts Cleopatra and her brother to that assembly and tells them that their father's wish was for them to be co rulers. And so, you know, you two get along, be co rulers but in reality de facto rulers. And he also gives their other siblings, so Ptolemy XIV and Arsinoe, he gives them Cyprus. So that's quite unsatisfactory for those two siblings because remember there's four of them. And I think it's entirely unsatisfactory for Cleopatra because she doesn't want to co rule with any of her siblings.

[Podcast Host]

So nobody's that happy really.

[Islam Issa]

Maybe Caesar is.

[Podcast Host]

That's true.

[Islam Issa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Islam Issa]

I don't think it's as straightforward as he'd have liked it to be. So maybe nobody.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

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[Islam Issa]

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[Podcast Host]

Can you talk us then through the events that led to Ptolemy XIII's death and to Cleopatra marrying another one of her brothers?

[Islam Issa]

So at this stage we said nobody's really that satisfied. So Ptolemy XIII actually teams up with the other sister, Marsinoe IV. Caesar's arrived with about 4,000 troops, which isn't a lot actually. They think that their 20,000 or so can defeat him. So they go for this decision that they want to fight and they think that Cleopatra has actually been favoured by this decision to co rule and so on. So they besiege the Roman army at the harbour. They think they're doing well, they surround the palace, they try to attack the palace. And what's interesting now is that the palace doesn't only have Julius Caesar inside, it also has Cleopatra and she's made her way in. She's made this decision unbeknownst to them that she's going to side with Caesar. A very interesting decision. And she's in there in the palace with him for months. So Cleopatra and Caesar are blocked Both on land and by sea. They're in there for months and it's seemingly not going their way. But in early 47 BC, so we're talking a good year and a half after this siege begins, Caesar's Roman reinforcements arrive to Alexandria and they force the Alexandrian army, so to speak. And it's odd at this stage to say the Alexandrian army, because Cleopatra is like this Alexandrian symbol and yet she's not on the Alexandrian army's side. And a similar kind of thing comes to mind when the library goes up in flames shortly after this. During these battles, I don't know how she must have been feeling when the library of her city and ancestors is being damaged. Anyway, they chase that army to the Nile. It's there, as they try to escape, that her brother, Ptolemy XIII is drowned. At this stage, she's defeated her brother, so to speak, and Julius Caesar decides that because she's a woman, she has to co rule with her one remaining brother, Ptolemy xiv.

[Podcast Host]

Just to go back on something you mentioned there about her feeling massively conflicted about the events that were unfolding here, does that speak to her having multiple identities in this story?

[Islam Issa]

I think she's adapting, that's the way I'd put it. She's recognized that Rome will either way, be victorious eventually. At this stage, they're too powerful, too determined. Egypt owes them too much money. And it's a decision, really that has to be made about which side to be on. My sense is that she's thinking this could be the end of the Ptolemaic dynasty unless I side with Julius Caesar. So it's not just this could be the end of my own ambitions, but it could be the end of this dynasty. It was founded by her forefathers, so it's an adaptive process.

[Podcast Host]

So she's making a pragmatic decision to ensure the future at the expense of sacrificing some of her past, I suppose, almost, yeah.

[Islam Issa]

And to some extent at the expense of the locals, because at this stage, I would assume that they're supporting the Alexandrian army, not the Roman army. She's kind of gone into hiding and is letting them fight it out, but in reality, she's on Caesar's side by this stage.

[Podcast Host]

You gave us quite a nice sense just now of Julius Caesar's personality in a way that I'd not always thought of it in those terms. Can you tell us a little bit about your take on his relationship with Cleopatra? What's the sense that we get of what their dynamic would have Been like.

[Islam Issa]

I think there's something pragmatic about it. As I've mentioned, Cleopatra wants to keep the dynasty going. She wants to fulfill her ambitions as well for power. At this stage, Cleopatra's still very young. She's much younger than Caesar by decades. And Caesar is this massive celebrity, this really influential, powerful person. So I think he's intrigued by her when she appears to him. I don't think she necessarily appears to him, you know, rolling out of a Persian rug, but she appears to him and he can, I would guess, sense her ambition, sense that she's a bit different in the way that she's thinking. She's also young, and we know that Caesar was very sexually active. So it makes sense for him to be attracted to this interesting young woman. From her perspective, she's ambitious, but she must have looked up to Caesar in some way and realized the potential of being an ally with Caesar and changing that dynamic. So it's no longer Egypt that's seeking Rome, but there's a mutual benefit in some way.

[Podcast Host]

Just to pick up there on something you mentioned. There is this common story that's told that Cleopatra arrived to Julius Caesar wrapped up in a carpet. It's your take on this that that's not what happened.

[Islam Issa]

The main source is Plutarch. Plutarch is relatively problematic because A, he's a century later, but B, it's anti Cleopatra, more pro Roman propaganda. My memory of Plutarch is that she is in a bed cloth, something of the sort. So it's not even a carpet or a rug at that stage. And it sort of transforms into that rug with translations of Plutarch, with later art pieces and so on. It's got a kind of sexiness and a kind of Orientalism about it. So I can sort of understand why that's happened. I don't think that Cleopatra needed to sneak into the palace. I think she could have talked her way in. If we're told that she's charismatic by Plutarch as well, and that she's diplomatic, I think she could have talked her way in, bribed her way in. Unless she wanted this sort of sexy entrance in order to get Caesar thinking in that way because of her end goal of having a child with him, potentially something like that could have happened. But, yeah, I think it's a story that's been exaggerated over the years.

[Podcast Host]

And that idea of stories about her being told by the people and being used for propaganda theme we'll return to in the fourth episode.

[Islam Issa]

Yeah, and it's important, I think, to Think of her as a human being to try and understand things about her psyche, and then to think about why the legacy of this famous woman, famous queen, is the way it is. I'm always excited to think about the truth behind Cleopatra.

[Podcast Host]

You mentioned the possibility of Cleopatra having a child with Julius Caesar. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

[Islam Issa]

As far as genius plans go, if she can get on Caesar's side and have a child with him, then you've got a super child. You've got the child of Caesar and Cleopatra. You've got the child of the two great civilizations. I would think that that was on her mind as well.

[Podcast Host]

And then so sometime in 47 BC, she did become pregnant with this superchild. What happened and what were the implications of this?

[Islam Issa]

Well, first of all, he's Caesarian, Little Caesar. And that immediately tells you something. I like to think that she named him, but we'll never know. But that's the first indication that he's got this power, that she's trying to link this Ptolemaic child with Caesar and with Rome. Egyptians refer to him as Little Caesar, but we see in the inscriptions that he's called Pharaoh Caesar, even as a baby. So immediately, she's building him as a pharaoh. She's also this mother figure, like Isis, who has Horus in the Egyptian mythology and theology. What happens as well, though, is that Caesar denies fathering him. So that's a complication maybe she hadn't anticipated. But I think it's complicated for Caesar to say, this is my child, because, of course, he has a Roman wife. She's seen as a foreigner. Alexandria is seen as a place of excess. What was he doing in Alexandria? You know, he was supposed to be doing serious things, not procreating. So that's a complication that takes place. And while he's not very keen on the child, Cleopatra is very keen. She's making no secret of who Caesarion's father is. She's telling everybody that this is Caesar's child. And she begins building a grand temple, the grand temple for the baby.

[Podcast Host]

And we will return to this idea in our next episode when we're going to be exploring what Cleopatra was like as a leader and, I suppose, exploring more of these really smart decisions she was making. But for now, thank you so much again.

[Islam Issa]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

And if you've enjoyed this episode and want to go beyond the podcast, you can visit the History Extra app, where I've curated a list of wider content that explores the life and afterlife of this fascinating figure. You can find a link to that in the episode. Description.

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