Did Churchill save the monarchy?

Summary

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HistoryExtra Podcast: Did Churchill Save the Monarchy?

Episode Date: July 26, 2026
Host: John Baucam
Guest: Ted Powell, historian and author of "Churchill and the Crown"

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Winston Churchill’s complex and often contradictory relationship with the British monarchy. Historian Ted Powell joins John Baucam to discuss Churchill’s interactions with successive monarchs—from his family’s deep royalist roots and turbulent relations with George V, through his controversial support for Edward VIII during the abdication crisis, to his crucial partnership with George VI during World War II and his mentorship of the young Queen Elizabeth II. The conversation investigates whether Churchill can be credited with "saving" the monarchy and the monarchy's role in modern Britain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Churchill’s Royal Connections?

[03:36]

• Ted Powell: There’s a surprising gap in the scholarship regarding Churchill’s interaction with the monarchy, despite abundant archival material. The subject is particularly topical given recent debates about the royal family's place in society.

“You would have thought that there would be a full-length study on the relationship between Churchill and the monarchy…To me, it just seemed like a subject that was really, you know, calling out for a book to be written.”
— Ted Powell [03:49]

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2. Churchill’s Royalist Heritage

[05:10]

• The Churchill family’s loyalty to the Crown dates to the English Civil War, with Churchill’s ancestors suffering for their royalist alignment. His mother, Jenny, was closely connected to Edward VII, influencing Churchill’s career from the start.

“A stunning beauty who takes Britain by storm…It does seem as though in the 1880s that Jenny was indeed Bertie’s mistress.”
— Ted Powell [06:46]

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3. Early Political Career & Relations With Edward VII

[07:55]

• Churchill, an ambitious war hero and radical, enters Parliament as a young man, quickly ruffling feathers with his party-shifting and bold positions.
• Edward VII, while personally affectionate, found Churchill’s radicalism difficult and tried to steer him towards moderation.

“Churchill is certainly, I think, ruffling feathers is a bit of an understatement…He certainly does irritate Edward VII.”
— Ted Powell [08:23]

• Contradiction Highlighted: Churchill is deeply monarchist but insists on strict constitutional limits for the Crown.

“He is throughout his career an ardent monarchist…But that does not indicate that he allows the monarch any power at all.”
— Ted Powell [09:37]

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4. A Difficult Partnership: Churchill and George V

[10:22]

• Churchill and George V clashed repeatedly; George V considered Churchill rash and unreliable, especially after the Dardanelles crisis, which forced Churchill from power.

“George V is the monarch with whom Churchill gets on the worst. They are chalk and cheese.”
— Ted Powell [10:22]

“At that point in…1915, he’s very pleased to see the back of Churchill.”
— Ted Powell [12:31]

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5. Interwar Years: A Shift to Conservatism

[15:33]

• The trauma of World War I and the fall of European crowned heads dramatically altered Churchill’s world view, pushing him to the right.
• Churchill is now more sympathetic to monarchy, seeing it as a bulwark against Bolshevism and instability.

“He goes back to a much more conservative posture. And of course, in a sense, therefore, he’s a great deal more sympathetic to George V after the First World War.”
— Ted Powell [15:33]

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6. Churchill and Edward VIII: Loyalty During Crisis

[17:21]

• Churchill became a mentor and supporter of Edward VIII, notably during the abdication crisis of 1936.
• Powell disputes claims Churchill’s motivations were purely personal or political; he genuinely believed in Edward’s potential as king.

“He is really…actively in Parliament and publicly campaigning to retain Edward…He genuinely had a strong affection and respect for Edward.”
— Ted Powell [19:31]

• Churchill was shouted down in Parliament over his stance, marking the nadir of his career.

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7. Abdication Fallout, Nazi Germany, and Churchill’s Calculus

[21:31]

• Edward VIII’s 1937 visit to Nazi Germany, while now infamous, was not universally condemned at the time, due to strong pacifist sentiment in Britain.
• Churchill was sympathetic, even congratulatory, regarding the visit at the time.

“Although at this time…he is not particularly critical of Edward at all for the visit. He congratulates him on the success of the visit…”
— Ted Powell [21:31]

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8. George VI and Churchill: War Partners

[23:42]

• Initially distrusted by George VI (who preferred Halifax as PM), Churchill eventually won him over, especially through his oratory and fortitude during WWII.

“By the end of 1940, Churchill has fully won over the King. And he says he doesn’t know how the country could manage without Churchill.”
— Ted Powell [25:34]

• The King became Churchill’s “sounding board” and, in Powell’s words, almost a “therapist,” offering crucial support through Britain’s darkest hours.

“Churchill comes to rely on these meetings with the King quite as much as the King does…”
— Ted Powell [25:39]

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9. Defender of European Monarchies

[27:12]

• Churchill’s monarchism wasn’t limited to Britain; he worked to support royal families exiled during WWII, hosting them in London and helping establish new monarchies (e.g., Jordan, Iraq) after WWI.

“…he is the monarchist number one, and he believes essentially that any monarch is better than no monarch…”
— Ted Powell [27:12]

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10. Correspondence With the Kaiser

[29:02]

• Churchill’s affinity for monarchy extended to the House of Hohenzollern; he maintained correspondence with Kaiser Wilhelm II and opposed efforts to prosecute him post-WWI.

“He always has a very sort of benign and sympathetic attitude to the Kaiser…he, you know, literally he thought that any monarch was better than no monarch.”
— Ted Powell [29:02]

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11. Churchill’s Final Act: Service to Elizabeth II

[31:20]

• Churchill’s last term as PM overlapped with Queen Elizabeth II’s early reign. Their relationship was warm and even “besotted,” but focused less on serious state business and more on personal rapport and lighter topics.

“He is really rather besotted with the Queen…They have a great deal in common with interest in horse racing.”
— Ted Powell [34:10]

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12. The End of an Era: Legacy and Final Judgments

[35:18]

• Churchill’s state funeral in 1965 marked the fading of Britain’s imperial golden age—a poignant and symbolic moment.

“…he was born in a palace, Blenheim Palace, and was given a funeral worthy of a king…marking…the sunset of an era and the decline of the British Empire…”
— Ted Powell [35:26]

• Did Churchill save the monarchy? Powell thinks he provided crucial ideological defense rather than being a solitary savior.

“Certainly he provided a very good ideological basis for the continuity and the relevance of monarchy…But…I think because of the two world wars, there was a natural coming together of the nation behind the royal family…”
— Ted Powell [36:46]

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Notable Quotes

• On Churchill’s approach to monarchy:
  “He is throughout his career an ardent monarchist…But that does not indicate that he allows the monarch any power at all.” — Ted Powell [09:37]

• On the 1936 abdication crisis:
  “He is literally shouted down in the Commons. It’s probably the worst moment of his entire political career.” — Ted Powell [20:48]

• On the George VI–Churchill relationship:
  “The King has a very important role to play, as you say, as a sympathetic listener, as a sounding board and almost as a therapist…” — Ted Powell [25:39]

• On Churchill’s legacy:
  “It can be said of Churchill that he was born in a palace…and was given a funeral worthy of a king.” — Ted Powell [35:26]

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Key Timestamps

• [03:49] Why study Churchill’s relationship with the monarchy?
• [06:46] Jenny Churchill’s connections and influence
• [08:23] Early parliamentary career and radicalism
• [10:22] Difficulties with George V
• [15:33] Churchill’s conservative shift post-WWI
• [17:37] Support for Edward VIII and the abdication
• [21:31] Edward VIII’s Nazi Germany visit
• [23:42] Formation of bond with George VI during WWII
• [27:12] Churchill as defender of European monarchy
• [29:02] Correspondence with the Kaiser
• [31:20] Churchill’s relationship with young Elizabeth II
• [35:26] Churchill’s state funeral and symbolism
• [36:46] Final verdict on Churchill’s impact on the monarchy

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Conclusion

The discussion reveals a nuanced portrait of Churchill—not only as a constitutional monarchist and political survivor but as a key ideological defender of monarchy during a century of unprecedented upheaval. While he may not have “saved” the monarchy singlehandedly, his role in sustaining and modernizing its image, especially in turbulent times, is undeniable. Powell’s insights offer a fresh look at both Churchill’s evolving attitudes and the resilience of the royal institution he so often championed.

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Transcript

[Mike Suiter]

What can we learn from history's most powerful people? Join me Mike Suiter, author of NextGen CEO, in History Extra's new podcast series, History's Greatest Leaders. To find out, listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Mike Suiter]

Winston Churchill was a passionate defender of Britain's monarchy, but that didn't mean he always saw eye to eye with the royals themselves. In this episode of the History Extra Podcast, John Baucam talks to Ted Powell about Churchill's complex relationship with the crown, from his clashes with George V and controversial support for Edward VIII to his role in guiding the young Elizabeth II through the early years of her reign. And to hear more about Winston Churchill's skills as pm, don't miss the latest episode of our new series, History's Greatest Leaders, in which entrepreneur Mike Soutar talks to Taylor Downing about Churchill's dynamism and difficult. You can find all the details of that in the description to this episode, but for now, it's over to John and Ted.

[John Baucam]

Ted, welcome to the History Extra podcast.

[Ted Powell]

Thank you very much, John.

[John Baucam]

Winston Churchill is one of the most widely studied figures in British history. There's no shortage of books or films and documentaries about his life and, of course, his wartime leadership. Why write this book and why now?

[Ted Powell]

It's surprising, given the thousands of books that have been written on Churchill and the thousands of books written on the royal family, you would have thought that there would be a full length study on the relationship between Churchill and the monarchy in Britain and abroad. But curiously enough, when I was getting into my reading after my first biography, the Study of Edward VIII and America, I found that there wasn't actually a good full length treatment of this relationship. There's a real gap in the literature. And if you go to the archives, if you look at the wonderful Churchill archive at Churchill College, the Royal archives in Windsor, there's no shortage, there's an abundance of material on this subject. So to me, it just seemed like a subject that was really, you know, calling out for a book to be written. And I felt that, you know, now is the time to write that particularly topical with the fortunes of the royal family, that now is the time to write it.

[John Baucam]

Excellent, Ted. That's a great summary. And before we go into Churchill's later political career, I actually just want to talk about his early life and in fact, his ancestry, because the story of the Churchill family is inextricably linked to that of the royals, isn't it?

[Ted Powell]

It really is. The Churchills were always royalist, and that tradition goes right back to the English Civil war in the 17th century, because the first Sir Winston, the first Sir Winston Churchill, who was the father of John, Duke of Marlborough, was an ardent royalist and fought for the King's cause in the Civil War and suffered as a result under the Protectorate. And he even wrote a book on the divine right of kings, extolling the excellence of kingship and its superiority over the Commonwealth. And of course, I mean, John Churchill, the great Duke of Marlborough, made his fortune and enjoyed enormous military successes as the servant of the Stuart monarchy. So it starts right back then and goes right forward into the 19th and then the 20th century, of course.

[John Baucam]

And Churchill's father has a political career too, or at least until his premature death in 1895.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, that's right. It comes to a rather premature halt when he resigns as Chancellor of the Exchequer under Lord Salisbury and never quite recovers that position. And of course, as you say, he dies Young in the 1890s, when Churchill is still really a very young man just coming out of Sandhurst.

[John Baucam]

So do you think that he feels the weight of history on his shoulders then?

[Ted Powell]

Very much so. And angling it on a more positive light? I think he sees himself as a man of destiny and always destined to do great things.

[John Baucam]

Now, what about Churchill's mother, Jenny? I mean, she's an American born socialite. Her connections to the Crown are rather more intimate, let's say.

[Ted Powell]

Indeed, yes. A stunning beauty who takes Britain by storm when she comes over in the 1870s. And she does of course have a very close relationship with Bertie, the future Edward vii, who is the, the Prince of Wales and the Churchills are, are good friends of his. And it does seem as though in the 1880s that Jenny was indeed Bertie's mistress. That relationship seems to have cooled by the time that Churchill is a young man. But they, they do remain very good. And one of the interesting features which I cover in the book is the correspondence between Jenny and bertie in the 1890s, just as Winston's career is getting going. And she's obviously very keen to enlist the Prince of Wales, then Edward vii in promoting Winston's career as he steps out into a military and then a political career.

[John Baucam]

Cause in the 1890s, the young Churchill, as you say, he's establishing himself as, well, something of a war hero. And he's a celebrated writer too.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, that's right. And he's a young man in a hurry and he's very anxious to make his name, as you say, he becomes a war hero during the Boer War and on the back of that he enters Parliament and gains a seat in 1900, in the very last year of Queen Victoria's reign, of course.

[John Baucam]

So yes, as you say, enters Parliament in 1900 as the MP for Oldham. And is it fair to say that he ruffles a few feathers in the comments during this time?

[Ted Powell]

Well, in his early days, of course, he is a bit of a firebrand and certainly certainly has a reputation as a Liberal radical. He's notorious for shifting parties. He starts off as a Tory and then very soon moves to the Liberal Party under Campbell Bannerman. And he becomes a young minister in the great Liberal government after 1906. And he's very much on the radical wing, a great supporter of Lloyd George. And the two of them are somewhat enfant terrible at the time. And Churchill is certainly, I think, ruffling feathers is a bit of an understatement at that point. And he certainly does irritate Edward vii, who is a very conservative figure. And despite his affection for Winston as the son of one of his former mistresses, he's constantly trying to educate Winston into becoming a responsible government minister rather than sort of constantly going with the most radical causes.

[John Baucam]

Yeah, it's something of a contradiction, isn't it? Because Churchill, on the one hand is this ardent monarchist, but then he's often rebuked for showing a lack of deference to the monarch. At the same time, it's a very

[Ted Powell]

distinctive view of monarchy. And as you say, he is throughout his career an ardent monarchist and believes that there is nothing like, nothing superior to a constitutional monarchy. But that does not indicate that he allows the monarch any power at all. So any idea that the monarch has a sort of an independent, independent prerogative of making decisions is anathema to Churchill and he never allows them the least leeway. It's an odd mixture of Tory and Whig attitudes, if you like.

[John Baucam]

Yeah, quite. And Edward VII's reign is actually quite short. He dies in 1910. He is replaced by his son George V. And it's fair to say that that is quite a change for Churchill, isn't it? And their relationship is even more testy.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, I think probably George V is the monarch with whom Churchill gets on the worst. They are chalk and cheese. And George is an extremely conventional, almost say reactionary figure, rather a humorless man. He does not take kindly to Churchill's ebullience, his ambition, his sort of naked sort of self regard. And Churchill, I think, for his part, delights in teasing George and twisting his tail. There's a rather nice example when Churchill was first Lord of the Admiralty and were new battleships being built and he suggested the name Oliver Cromwell for one of the New battleships, which was naturally not something to George's liking and George was really rather upset about it. But even there, Churchill argued the toss and saying, we know what an important figure Cromwell was in the foundation of the Royal Navy. So he is a bit mischievous at this point and still in his radical phase. Of course, he's an advocate of the reduction of the power of the House of Lords and so on.

[John Baucam]

Yes. And Ted, can you just give us a little summary of where Churchill is in terms of his titles by this point? Because he's had this rapid rise to the top of government. I think he's First Lord of the Admiralty, isn't he?

[Ted Powell]

That's right. Well, immediately before the First World War. So between, you know, 1911 and 1914. Before that he's Home Secretary. I mean, he's the youngest Home Secretary since Sweden, Robert Peel. And before that he's had other posts. So he's astonishingly young and he has this meteoric career in the Liberal administration under Campbell Bannerman and then Asquith, leading up to the First World War. And then, of course, as we all know, there is the catastrophe of the Dardanelles, the fiasco, the attempt to force the Dardanelles Straits, which he carries the can for and which really sets his career back for a very long time.

[John Baucam]

Yeah, so that's the Dardanelles Crisis, that's in 1915. And yes, George V is very keen to get rid of him and personally blames him.

[Ted Powell]

He is indeed, yes. I mean, he really has no time for Churchill at this point, regards him as a sort of dangerous and rash politician who makes stupid decisions. And at that point in, as you say, 1915, he's very pleased to see the back of Churchill. And there is, I think, this assumption that forms in Buckingham palace at this time that Churchill is an unreliable maverick figure who is not to be trusted and who is rather suspect for the Royal Family.

[John Baucam]

Indeed. And he enters something of a political wilderness at this point. I mean, he goes to the Western Front, doesn't he?

[Ted Powell]

He does briefly, and serves very briefly on the Western Front. But of course, Churchill is an epicenter man. As Roy Jenkins said, he hates to be away from the centre of power. He wants to be in the room where it happens. So he's soon back at Westminster making blood curdling speech and supporting the coalition which emerges. And the premiership of Lloyd George, who succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.

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[Ted Powell]

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[John Baucam]

Now, Ted, tell me about Churchill in the 1920s, because he rejoins the Conservatives, doesn't he? And in fact he becomes Chancellor. Does this lead to a drastic change in his relationship with George V?

[Ted Powell]

Well, of course, to look at the 1920s, of course you have to think about the end of the First World War and the catastrophic collapse of the great European empires that takes place. Obviously the Russian Revolution 1917, and then the collapse of the German, Austrian and Ottoman empires in 1918, what Churchill called the Holocaust of crowns. And for Churchill, this is undoubtedly a terribly traumatic event. And of course it is a world shattering moment when these great empires that have been there for hundred, even thousands of years suddenly disappear. The map of Europe is completely redrawn and all sorts of uncertainties emerge. And particularly for Churchill, the rise of the Bolshevik threat in Russia, which horrifies Churchill because the Bolshevik regime represents everything that he absolutely abhors. And the threat to his beloved constitutional monarchy and system of government in Britain that he feels the Churchills over the centuries have helped to build. So it does very much transform his attitude. He's no longer the radical of 1910. He goes back to a much more conservative posture. And of course, in a sense, therefore, he's a great deal more sympathetic to George V after the First World War, in that George hasn't really changed. He's still the conservative reactionary figure that he's always been. But Churchill has moved quite a their way to the right in response to the events of the First World War

[John Baucam]

and its aftermath, and during this period as well. So throughout the 1920s and the early 1930s, he's fostering a good partnership with the young Prince of Wales, isn't he, who will, of course, become Edward VIII in 1936. Tell me about that friendship.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, this is an interesting one. And whereas George V, he's never got on with. He forms really, I think, quite a close relationship with Edward VIII as he became, which started way back in the very early years of George V's reign, when he takes part as Home Secretary in the inauguration of Edward as Prince of Wales at Carnarvon. And, well, of course, Edward then is a very young man, but after the First World War, Churchill is quite important in mentoring Edward in his early steps in public life, and they continue to have a warm relationship. And perhaps most notably, as you hinted at the time of the abdication crisis in 1936, at the end of that year, Churchill is one of the few leading politicians who provides active support and sustenance to Edward as he struggles to decide whether to retain his throne or to marry his beloved Wallis Simpson.

[John Baucam]

Yeah, and it's important to point out, I think, to your listeners of just how popular the Prince of Wales had been with the public throughout these years.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, he was a golden boy and a hugely admired figure, not just in Britain, but throughout the British Empire at the time. He embarked on a series of very lengthy tours of the Commonwealth and Empire and he was a huge hit in America. He was absolutely adored and idolized like the Hollywood film star in the States. And so, of course, the shock of his abdication was all the greater as a result, you know, his downfall, so sudden and so abrupt, was a terrible shock. And there's a feeling perhaps at the time that the monarchy might be in doubt as a result.

[John Baucam]

So just talk me through, then, Churchill's role in the abdication crisis.

[Ted Powell]

Well, he really rather puts himself out on a limb for Edward and his, undoubtedly his political career suffers as a result because he is really, he's the only figure who is actively, actively in Parliament and publicly campaigning to retain Edward. And there was arguments at the time that this was being. You know, Churchill was doing this purely out of personal ambition and hostility to Stanley Baldwin, the Prime Minister, as his political adversary. But I think it wasn't as simple as that. I think Churchill genuinely had a strong affection and respect for Edward. He believed, rightly or wrongly, that he would make a great king. And he felt also that Edward had been very shabbily treated by the politicians, by Baldwin, and that he should have had more time and opportunity to reflect on the situation and to come to a decision. And as far as Churchill was concerned, for Wallis Simpson to quietly bow out of the picture, which of course did not happen.

[John Baucam]

And in the short term, would you say that this damages Churchill's political career? Because there's quite an outburst in the Commons, isn't there, when this is happening?

[Ted Powell]

Yes, he is literally shouted down in the Commons. It's probably the worst moment of his entire political career. And I suppose his political career at that point is right at its very lowest point between 36 and then the Munich crisis of 38, when of course, his. His predictions and his warnings are all seen now to be coming true in relation to the rise of Nazi Germany.

[John Baucam]

And Ted, Edward viii, he abdicates, he's made Duke of Windsor. But listeners will be familiar with this infamous visit he makes in October 1937. Oh, yes, to Nazi Germany. He meets Hitler. How is that received by the public? And also what sort of position does that put Churchill in?

[Ted Powell]

It's interesting cause the spin on that, of course post war is entirely negative. I mean, clearly Edward has been condemned, and rightly so, for his sympathies at this stage towards Hitler's regime. But at the time it was not received anything like as badly as it's subsequently been seen to at this time in Britain, of course, there was a very strong pacifist movement. The horrors of the First World War are still all too vivid and the potential in the possibility of another war is just something which is too dreadful to contemplate. And certainly for Edward, who has been through the First World War, he was there and he saw the carnage, the idea that anything would be better than another war. So it's a different climate and that's reflected in Churchill's own attitudes towards the visit. Because although at this time we're talking about 37, he is very much the advocate of active rearmament and very much the voice crying the threat of Nazi Germany. But he is not particularly critical of Edward at all for the visit. He congratulates him on the success of the visit and of course interestingly, Winston's son Randolph is a correspondent covering the tour in Germany and writes some really quite sympathetic pieces about Edward and the role he's playing inspecting the social housing and so on. Subsequently of course, I mean it is obvious that it's a public relations disaster. Edward has to cancel a proposed visit to America which he had been planning a similar kind of fact finding mission and the idea of hobnobbing with Hitler and Nazi leaders has proved to be fatal for his subsequent reputation.

[John Baucam]

And of course Ted, the abdication means that we see the accession of George VI as monarch, the younger brother of the previous King. And very quickly Churchill has to form a bond with him, doesn't he? Not least in 1940 when he becomes Prime Minister.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, between that, that period between 37 and 1940, Churchill's still regarded very much as the champion of the Duke of Windsor. And he's never paid much attention to George vi. You know, he was the younger brother and obviously not assumed that he would succeed to the throne. So there has to be some pretty rapid repositioning on Churchill's part. And it's well known in 1940 that George VI would have preferred Lord Halifax to succeed Chamberlain instead of Churchill. And that attitude in Buckingham palace that Churchill was an unreliable and rather rash maverick who couldn't be fully trusted with power. It was still there. George had inherited it from his father. But the situation does change very, very rapidly after May 1940, partly the result of the transformation of public opinion in Britain with Churchill's vindication, you know, all the predictions, all the warnings he'd given during the 30s had now come to pass. And of course this magnificent historic series of speeches that Churchill gives in 1940 rally in the country very much fine reson with George too and it's fascinating. One of the great sources that we have for the relationship between Churchill and George are George VI's war diaries which recount very, very frankly his meetings, his regular weekly meetings that they have and relating what they've discussed, talking about Churchill's hopes and fears and worries. So you get a very intimate picture of their relationship and you see how rapidly, by the end of 1940, Churchill has fully won over the King. And he says he doesn't know how the country could manage without Churchill.

[John Baucam]

And in effect the King is almost Winston Churchill's sounding board for a lot of these things.

[Ted Powell]

That's right. The Diaries, I think, reveal something quite special in that Churchill, of course, has the public image with the V sign and the cigar and the set jaw of this indomitable figure who is worried by nothing. He's absolutely convinced of victory and there's never anybody any doubt, but of course, he has in himself. He's under huge, immense pressure, I mean, unbelievable pressure from 1940, particularly right the way through, at least Till El Alamein 1942, when there's a series of disasters, military disasters, that befall the British forces. And in those circumstances, the King has a very important role to play, as you say, as a sympathetic listener, as a sounding board and almost as a therapist, if you like. I think Churchill comes to rely on these meetings with the King quite as much as the King does, because it enables him to sort of unburden himself a bit and actually to tell the King, you know, his own worries and fears. And that's particularly True early in 1942, the disaster in the Far east, the collapse of Singapore. It seems that nothing is going right, and King does help to rally and support him at that time.

[John Baucam]

Indeed. And it's also important to mention, Ted, isn't it, that Churchill's not just interested in saving Britain and preserving the British monarchy. His fight also extends to saving other royal families across Europe and beyond, too.

[Ted Powell]

Yes, that's right. And this is where you see his intrinsic monarchism really coming out. Of course, his wife Clementine says that he is the monarchist number one, and he believes essentially that any monarch is better than no monarch, and that a monarchy on the British constitutional model is infinitely the best form of government. And during the war, at the beginning of the war, of course, Britain becomes a refuge for many European monarchs in the wake of the invasions. Queen Willamina of the Netherlands, King Haakon of Norway, they flee to London from their capitals. And then later in the war, of course, you have the Balkan monarchs, you have King George of Greece and King Peter of Yugoslavia. I mean, this is not just sentimentality on Churchill's part, but it's an important element of maintaining a legitimate government in waiting in London, as opposed to the puppet regimes that the Nazis set up in the countries that they conquer. And one might add, I mean, just as a. As a sidelight, of course, in the aftermath of the First World War, with the re figuring of the Middle east after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Churchill is instrumental in establishing the monarchies of Jordan and Iraq. These are the only new monarchies which are set up. And of course, although the Iraqi monarchy has gone Long ago, the Kingdom of Jordan still survives and flourishes, and that was largely Churchill's doing.

[John Baucam]

Another quite controversial connection he has is to the Kaiser. I mean, we've not really spoken about that yet, but he continues to maintain correspondence with him up until the Kaiser's death in 1941.

[Ted Powell]

Yeah, this is quite an extraordinary feature. Of course, Churchill has met the Kaiser a couple of times before the First World War, when he secures an invitation to the German military maneuvers in the summer of 1906 and 1908. And there he meets the Kaiser. The Kaiser entertains him. The name Churchill is still a name to conjure with, with the memories of the great Duke of Marlborough. And Churchill is dazzled. I mean, this time, you know, the power and the charisma of the Kaiser just overwhelms him and he writes these very sort of gushing letters of thanks afterwards. And he always has a very sort of benign and sympathetic attitude to the Kaiser. He's very much against the idea of trying Kaiser Wilhelm for war crimes after the First World War. And many people are calling for a trial and hang the Kaiser. But Churchill is dead against that. And in the 20s and 30s, there is a sort of bit of a. A correspondence between them. And again, Winston's son Randolph goes to interview the Kaiser in his refuge in Holland and Churchill again strikes up a correspondence with him, thanking him. And even to the extent that in the 1930s, with the rise of Hitler, Churchill laments the fact that the Hohenzollern monarchy, Wilhelm's family, have been removed from Germany because he felt that the presence of a monarchy on the British model would restrict and limit the ability of Hitler to assume absolute dictatorial power. Now, that's very much a minority view. There are not many who would have subscribed to that, even in the 1930s, I don't think. But it gives you an indication of what an ardent monarchist Churchill was, that he, you know, literally he thought that any monarch was better than no monarch.

[John Baucam]

And Ted, let's go to 1945. He is standing on the balcony at Buckingham palace on VE Day.

[Ted Powell]

Yes. In the midst of the Royal family.

[John Baucam]

Indeed. But then, of course, loses the 1945 general election to a Labour landslide. He does return to office in 1951. But how does Churchill, the peacetime leader, differ to Churchill, the war leader?

[Ted Powell]

Yes, the second administration, from 51 to 55, is A, you know, it's a bit of a sort of pale imitation of his historic wartime coalition. It's sort of, you know, he's playing all the Old numbers, but they don't quite sound as. As convincing as they used to. And of course, by this time he is a very old man, you know, in his late 70s, and he's also not a well man. His health is quite poor. And indeed he, you know, he does suffer quite a serious stroke, but nonetheless, it does mean that he is in power in the early years of Queen Elizabeth II's reign. So, you know, there is that magic moment when you have the dazzling young queen, you know, beautiful and portending a wonderful future for the country and this wise old senior elder statesman, and it perhaps, you know, conveys an illusion of, you know, Britain's continuing greatness, which is sadly in rapid decline at that point. But, of course, he manages to hang on and hang on, despite some of his colleagues, particularly Anthony Eden, desperately trying to get rid of him. You know, he was past it and they felt that he hung on for much too long. He just about hung onto his 80th birthday and then that was more or less it.

[John Baucam]

And as you hinted at there, the world that Churchill once knew has all but vanished, hasn't it? We're seeing the collapse of empire, we're seeing decolonisation. How does that affect his own perception of the world and the world order?

[Ted Powell]

It's rather sad in the sense that at the end of his life, he felt he had failed. He was, of course, was an arch imperialist and particularly during the 30s, he fought desperately to prevent India becoming an independent, autonomous country. So, in that sense, you know, clearly he is not on the side of history and he is a sort of an anachronistic and reactionary figure, but also, of course, having identified the Nazi threat and Britain has brought itself to a standstill in the attempt to defeat Hitler. Then after the war, of course, you have the rise of an even greater peril of the Soviet Union and the threat of nuclear war. And I think in his very, very last years, Churchill felt that all that he had been working and fighting for, for his whole career had been for nothing. But that's not, perhaps, a judgment that everybody would make. Although he does remain, as we know, he remains an extremely controversial figure in many respects.

[John Baucam]

Indeed. And just talking about his twilight years, what sort of values do you think he instills within the late Queen Elizabeth ii?

[Ted Powell]

Oh, well, it's difficult to say. And I think the values that she inherited from her father were perhaps most important, that remarkable sense of duty and national service. And I think Churchill's role was perhaps more to introduce her gently to the realities of monarchy. There's no doubt. I mean, he, you know, he's an old man and he is really rather besotted with the Queen. And they have a great deal in common with interest in horse racing. Because Churchill becomes a horse race owner in the 50s. And it seems as though, from what one can tell, there wasn't a huge amount of serious business discussed at their weekly meetings, by contrast with George vi, because Churchill was. I think he probably felt in a rather patronizing way that she was a bit young to be worried with serious matters and the building of an H bomb and the threat of world destruction and so on. So he kept matters on a. On a rather more trivial level, I suspect.

[John Baucam]

And to close Ted, Churchill dies in 1965, and he's given a funeral that's befitting of a king almost. And that's. That's quite apt.

[Ted Powell]

It really is. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. I mean, it can be said of Churchill that he was born in a palace, Blenheim palace, and was given a funeral worthy of a king. And it was, you know, one of the great, great state occasions. And I think it was. Everyone was conscious at the time that in a sense, this was a reflection, you know, this was marking the. The sunset of an era and the decline of the British Empire, one of the last great figures of Britain's imperial age. So it's a very poignant occasion. I remember as a child watching it myself. It was a moving occasion.

[Stitch Fix Announcer]

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[John Baucam]

Truly the end of an era and breaking that continuity with the Victorian age that Churchill.

[Ted Powell]

That Churchill knew very much so. Yeah, that's right. And this is remarkable that his career extended, you know, across six reigns from Victoria to Queen Elizabeth, and he could say to the Queen he had served her great great grandmother, which is remarkable, and a career perhaps only matched in its length by Gladstone's in the 19th century.

[John Baucam]

And to close Ted, this is a slightly controversial question, but do you think that Churchill saved the monarchy?

[Ted Powell]

It's probably going a bit too far to credit Churchill with saving the monarchy. Certainly he provided a very good ideological basis for the continuity and the relevance of monarchy in the middle of the 20th century by formulating this notion of the significance of the monarch as a bulwark against dictatorship and autocracy. The importance of the separation of pageantry from power, that provides very valuable ideological underpinning, if you like. But I think because of the two world wars, there was a natural coming together of the nation behind the royal family as the symbol of the country, which helped to give them a renewed relevance in those Middle years. And that afterglow survived, I think, for quite a long time from, you know, beyond the 50s and 60s. But of course, it seems really to rapidly be fading now, and there is a, perhaps a question in the current environment as to the relevance of the monarchy and what role it might serve to going forward into the future.

[John Baucam]

Ted Powell, thanks very much for your time. Really great to speak with you.

[Ted Powell]

Yeah, great to talk to you, John. Thank you very much.

[Mike Suiter]

That was Ted Powell talking to John Baucam. Ted is a broadcaster, historian and lecturer, and his new book, Churchill and the Crown is out now. And just a reminder to check out our new series, History's Greatest Leaders, which this week features entrepreneur Mike Soutar talking to Taylor downing about the PM's leadership skills. You'll find all the details of that in the description to this episode.

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