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- [00:00]
Dr. Unknown
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- [01:58]
Matt Elton
Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. The UK is currently marking South Asian Heritage Month with a particular focus this year on journeys, migration and movement. But what's the value of such themed months? And are there stories from South Asia that are still being overlooked? Matt Elton assembled a panel of three expert historians, Shalina Patel, Sumita Mukherjee and Shravani Basu to find out.
- [02:35]
Unknown Host
We are currently marking South Asian Heritage Month and I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by a really excellent panel today to discuss some of the issues and some of the histories related to this. So before we go any further, if you could all introduce yourself.
- [02:49]
Shalina Patel
Hi, I'm Shalina Patel. I am a history Teacher by day in a secondary school in North West London and I'm also the author of the History Lessons.
- [02:58]
Sumita Mukherjee
I'm Sumita Mikherjee. I'm professor of Modern History at the University of Bristol. I work on the histories of South Asian migration to Britain.
- [03:06]
Shravani Basu
Hi, I'm Shrabani Basu. I'm a journalist and an author and I like to write about the hidden stories between India and Britain.
- [03:15]
Unknown Host
It's really nice for you all to be here. Thank you so much for joining me today. I wanted to first of all talk a little bit about what you think the value is of marking South Asian Heritage Month. Do you think this kind of specific history month is generally a good thing? Do you think it comes with any problems?
- [03:31]
Shalina Patel
So I think, I think one of the key things really is when we think about a history, a dedicated month to a certain type of history, I think we all think about Black History Month, right? And I think it's really important to remember that Black History Month was started in the UK certainly in 1987. And it was kind of created at a time when there was a real huge absence of understanding about black history. And so that was kind of the point of the month then, to kind of really raise awareness for that. And now when you think kind of fast forward, you know, 30 plus years later, you've got groups that I work with, for example, like the Black curriculum, who are now advocating for Black History365. Right. So for this idea that actually black history shouldn't be, as they see, kind of relegated to a month, but it should be something that's integrated all year round. And so if we think about that journey that Black History Month has gone on, that's why I think South Asian Heritage Heritage Month is actually really important, because I think we have to start somewhere. And I do think that there is a real kind of absence of understanding of South Asia and the kind of the diversity within South Asian culture and communities and history. So I think whilst, you know, there are those kind of risks, I suppose, which is, you know, is this the only time of the year that people will talk about it, etc. But I think actually we're starting from a place where there's so little, in a way, there are so few conversations potentially that happen on a really public scale that I think that's why marking South Asian Heritage Month is really, really. And I hope that, you know, we will get to a point where, you know, actually we won't need any more because actually it will, it will be something that's really integrated into people's understanding. But I think where we are at the moment, I think it is really, really important to market.
- [05:04]
Sumita Mukherjee
Yeah, just. Just to agree that it's really important at this moment to increase the diversity of history that is being told around South Asia. I would say there's an issue, though, with the timing of South Asian Heritage Month as it stands across July and August, especially for schools, and especially when we bring this, this month into school curriculum, because most schools are closed over July and August, as are universities, as lots of people just on holiday, just generally in the uk. So the timing is one of the big issues around the month at the moment, that's true.
- [05:36]
Shravani Basu
But it is a point that you can focus on. I think that's the important thing, like all anniversaries or months. I think that's the key thing. You can start with that and then focus on all the issues. I mean, it's not just the understanding of history, its heritage, it's just so many things that we can cover in that, which is important. I think the important thing is to also make it inclusive and it shouldn't just be South Asians just going and, you know, having some curries and watching some dances and things. The point is to make it a national festival where everybody looks forward to something and you, you know, you. You mark it up as something that people look forward to, a summer of festival. I know it's the holiday season, so go for that. You know, make it something that. That excites people. I think the danger of all these things is that they lose momentum. So the point is to keep it and make it every year, raise the bar, make it exciting, make people want to see what's on the agenda this year and sort of take it forward that way.
- [06:34]
Unknown Host
So it sounds like you're saying it does have value as a springboard for these kinds of conversations, but also as a way of connecting history to wider culture and to wider society and to wider people. Is that fair?
- [06:46]
Shravani Basu
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's too little known about, as Shalita, I'm sure will say, as a history teacher, she would know this, that far too little is known about Indian history, South Asian history, I mean, we say Indian history. It is the history of undivided India to some extent, and our cultures from all these countries that make up South Asia, so little is known about them. It is amazing. And that's the point. It should be inclusive. More and more people, South Asians know very little. That's one problem. They, we ourselves don't know much and Then we need to open it up to the others, you know, just make it happen.
- [07:22]
Shalina Patel
I totally agree with what Shrabani just said, especially because I think not only is South Asian Heritage Month an important springboard to have conversations with people outside of the community, but actually it's really key that it's also a really important opportunity to unlock those conversations within the community itself. Because I don't think as a community, and I know that, you know, in both of your works you've probably found this as well, that, you know, we as a community are not necessarily great at talking about our history partly because of the, the types of things that have happened in, you know, within the kind of memory of our, of our grandparents, for example, and great grandparents. So I think that's also why South Asian Heritage Month is important because actually it's about having those internal family conversations. Right. As well as having those conversations on more of a public scale. So I think there's, there's two sides to that I think are really, really important.
- [08:13]
Sumita Mukherjee
I just want to raise some of the concerns maybe around the month as well. I would mention the timing. I think like this idea of inclusion and celebration is a great thing, but sometimes, and we see this with Black History Month as well and other history months that the focus on kind of role models or celebrations and celebrating certain figures and kind of palatable histories without looking at the dark side, I guess, of history and the, the bad side of history, and just celebrating South Asians only and not also criticizing South Asians and their roles in history. I think that's an issue. And also getting, in terms of the inclusiveness of South Asian History Month, a lot of the focus is basically on India, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the Indian subcontinent as it was on the British Empire and now with India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. But actually South Asia is a much broader region and inclusiveness has not yet. I know South Asian heritage is a relatively new endeavor, but that inclusiveness has not yet come through in the kind of events and celebratory kind of elements that I've seen so far.
- [09:21]
Shravani Basu
Absolutely. I mean, within South Asia, I mean, Sri Lanka is another country. Very few people in North India know anything about Sri Lanka. You know, it's. It's just that the whole region is so vast and so varied that we ourselves don't know. And you know, as Sumita said, we have a very dark history and a very between us. You know, taking partition, taking the riots, taking everything that's happened. It's. It's also a very war torn area with a lot of dark, dark patches for which many of which, you know, all the countries involved are to blame. It's not just looking at outside forces. So, yeah, there's a lot of questioning that could come out and discussion that would be great. But at the same time, it shouldn't probably get too dark. I think, I think it would just be nicer to celebrate and bring together all these divisive countries, really.
- [10:10]
Shalina Patel
And actually, I think related to what you both just said, I think in lots of ways, I guess South Asian Heritage Month is a really good opportunity, I think, to celebrate that diversity and I think also to really, really push the idea that, you know, South Asians are not a monolith in any way. And I think that sometimes that can be, you know, I think sometimes, you know, I certainly put myself under a category of kind of British South Asian. But what does that mean? There's so many, so many different types of people and different experiences within that. So I think, I guess that's why in a way, South Asian Heritage Month, in a way you've kind of got a problem, which is that that encapsulates so many types of people. But then I suppose the answer to that would be it's an opportunity to really engage in all of those, in all those differences as well, which I think even, like we've already said, even within the communities themselves is maybe not something that is necessarily kind of understood. So I think there's a real opportunity. And like you guys have said, South Asian Heritage Month is still relatively new. And so I think hopefully what we will see is more and more of that diversity and those, those different types of stories coming through. Throughout the times it's celebrated.
- [11:18]
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- [12:14]
Dr. Unknown
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- [12:44]
Unknown Host
I wanted to get into this, more this idea because one of the themes of this year's South Asian Heritage Month is migration and movement. How do you think these histories are told and explored in Britain today? And is there anything that needs to happen to make this process work better or to foster to research across these different communities?
- [13:03]
Shalina Patel
I obviously teach in a secondary school in north West London and I've been a teacher for, I hate to say it, 15 years now. Makes me feel so old and I, I have been very lucky to be in a school that is, it's very, very diverse in northwest London. I know it's very near where Shivani lives actually. And you know, because we have such diverse, diverse community, my school is so positive about, you know, making sure that we share histories that are relevant to our students. So in my school certainly there huge amount of South Asian history that is explored. And what I would say is there's been a real journey with that because I would say that, you know, 10 years ago it was kind of just me and my department sort of doing that on our own, having to research all of these things on our own because there wasn't really kind of, there weren't the resources out there. But now I'm really proud to say that I've helped write textbooks about a lot of these issues. So literally just last week I had a textbook that's just been published called Asian Empires in the Silk Roads where I wrote the chapter about Mughal India, for example. And I've written a textbook that is, that helped write a textbook as well about the British Empire. So I think things are definitely changing and there are much more resources out there now for schools to be able to use. I think really the problem is that it's up to individual schools. So it's completely up to individual schools whether they are teaching the British Empire at all. It's entirely up to schools whether, if they do teach the British Empire, whether kind of India is part of that story. But also for me, it's so important that, you know, I don't just teach the British Raj as part of South Asian history. I teach the Mughals because a. The students love learning about the Mughals because they are fascinating and dramatic and although much more interesting than the Tudors, I would say. But I also think, you know, I also teach my students about South Asian migration as well and stories of kind of more modern, kind of South Asian people as well. Whether that's obviously one of my favorite people from history or, you know, Safiya Daleep Singh, et cetera as well. And we've really integrated. We've really integrated their stories into the curriculum. But I think really the big problem, I suppose, is that there's. Which goes back to what Shobani said earlier, actually. There's still not really an understanding of how much shared history there is between Britain and the subcontinent. I think that's one of the real issues. And I think, you know, if you are a parent who has children who are in school, I think, you know, if your kids are not learning about, you know, that your kids are learning about World War I and World War II in school, they are. But if they're not learning about the contribution of Indian soldiers, then that is a problem because that is not telling the full story. That's not telling our full war story. So I think that for me is where the issue lies, I think is that if the South Asian contributions to the world wars is not even being acknowledged within the education system, then we've not got really, you know, then actually that absence of empire is. Is. It then kind of extends to so much more. And I think you can't teach British history without teaching the empire, but yet it happens. So that, like I said, that's why I've helped to write textbooks and things like that, to help teachers, because obviously I totally get it that teachers don't have a huge amount of time. We're under a huge amount of pressure. And also it's about subject knowledge. So many of us didn't learn any of this stuff when we were at school, so we don't know a lot of this stuff. So, yeah, I think that's really the key thing. And I will say what my students learn, it could not be more different to what I learned when I was at school. And so it just proves, you know, my students are proof that you can learn about the English Civil War and about the British Charaj and about the Battle of Hastings, and you can learn about all of those things and get a really, full, well rounded picture of British history.
- [16:36]
Shravani Basu
I've written about this, written about Noori nad Khan, written about Indian soldiers in The First World War. And I just feel there is still no knowledge, you know, apart from a few people. It is increasing, but across the bay it is not known even. I mean, we recently, we just saw the VE Day celebrations and it was just a. You know, there were the parades and then there was just a little mention of how many Indian. You know, yes, there's the contingent and the Indian soldiers played a part and that's it. It was gone. I do understand that you have very limited time in a commentary, but a few more lines, a little more emphasis would have been greater. Then you had the. The fannies who were right in front of the, you know, of the procession. This is the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry, these women who sent out secret agents in the Second World War. So the fannies were marching and it was mentioned that there were secret agents. I would have loved to hear that. These secret agents came from all parts of the world. I mean, there was Noor Inayat Khan, she was half Indian. There was Christina Scarbeck, she was from Poland. So, you know these stories that all these people came here and they did help fight this war, that it was fought on the shoulders of the people of the Empire. I think that point should have been raised more. And sorry if I carry on, but this is something I just feel strongly about. And even at the concert, somebody told me I hadn't seen the concert, but somebody came back and they had a grudge. Lots of people carried this and they said there was no mention of the Indians, 2.5 million, the biggest volunteer army at this concert, not a single mention. So it does tell you that this narrative is still not there. It's lost, still, despite everything. And it needs to be told, it needs to be taught in the schools and that is the only way forward.
- [18:23]
Sumita Mukherjee
As Shravani and Shalini have already mentioned. There's so many just even the World War histories, there's so much to say about South Asian migration. I mean, British history itself is South Asian history. It's not just about the history of the Empire. Just like domestic British history is about South Asians. So South Asians have been in Britain since the 17th century. And migration is not just a contemporary phenomenon. Looking back to the 19th century, there were South Asians of all ilks and in Britain, affecting culture, the working classes had South Asians in them. The port cities, Britain itself is populated by so many South Asians. And also, like South Asian migration, history is a. Is a global history. It's not just about South Asia to Britain, it's South Asians who went to Mauritius, who went to Malaysia, who went to Uganda, who went to South Africa, who went to Guyana, who went to Jamaica. And so it's such a vibrant, interesting history that I think anyone who's interested in any kind of sense of history, culture, there's so many different things that people can pick up on. But as I was saying before, I think there's also, again, I just want to bring about this challenge of a kind of centrism around, like, North India and kind of Punjab, Bengal, Up Sindh, kind of Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, some of these stories. And so much to also say about Burma and Sri Lanka and Afghanistan and all the other Nepal and all the other parts within the South Asian region, which we should really try to bring in. Especially we talk about migration as a theme this year.
- [19:59]
Shravani Basu
I would just love to see oral histories being recorded from, you know, the earlier generations. I feel not enough has been done. And whenever you see these clips, I think the BBC used to do them. There was a little documentary that used to come. They were recording the people who just moved in in the 60s. And it was so interesting seeing their lifestyles, how they were so formally dressed in those days, you know, when they would come, because they would dress their best at all times. And you compare it to now, everyone is so casual, you know, even the new immigrants who've come in, they're casual. And this, you know, these stories tell us so much about how they came here. So I feel more and more as we lose that generation, we. We really need to know their stories. So I wish this would actively be, you know, recorded and kept there for us in film, on film, and basically audio as well, as much as possible.
- [20:49]
Shalina Patel
You've just reminded me, actually, when you were talking about the Indian diaspora in other parts of the world, is that there are also some kind of unusual connections that you can. That you can make with South Asian history as well. So one of the things I only started doing in the last couple of years is after I teach the transatlantic slave trade to my students, I then teach about indentured labor because there's a cause and consequence there. Because actually the. The cause of all of those millions of Indians going to places like Mauritius, for example, is directly related to the fact that slavery was abolished. And so there's a connection there. Even with, you know, hit the history of the Caribbean and with the history of South Asia and with Britain, it's kind of a. There's a tripartite there, almost, isn't there, of the history of all of those countries, of all those places. Together. So I think that's also really interesting to kind of think about actually how does the history of South Asia actually kind of intersect not just with Britain, but also with Britain's other connections with other parts of the world. So, yeah, you just reminded me, Samita.
- [21:48]
Sumita Mukherjee
When you said that, and you just reminded me, Shalina, about the history of Windrush. Right. And history of Windrush, which is relatively well known and taught in schools and within British kind of culture. And that is also about Indo Caribbeans who came over with the Windrush generation. So it's all connected, some of these histories. And I guess it goes back to that first question about do we need these months? And how we do need some of these months to highlight these stories and histories, but also we don't lose these connections between Women's History Month and Disability History Month and Black History Month and South Asian and Asian History Month, and all the connections that these histories actually have with each other.
- [22:25]
Shravani Basu
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [22:27]
Unknown Host
I want to go on in a minute to talk about some of the things we should be celebrating. Before we do, just one more question on this sort of theme. Do you think that recent tensions, such as we saw between India and Pakistan in May, do they present challenges, challenges for research into the region's histories, do you think?
- [22:43]
Shravani Basu
Oh, absolutely, Because I think the first thing you. You have when you have a situation of conflict is that visas get canceled, and so researchers can't go, academics can't travel, and India canceled visas for people from Pakistani origin, British Pakistanis, everything. So it is very difficult for Pakistanis to travel to India, and the same probably for Indians to travel to Pakistan. So British Asians of Indian or Pakistani origin living here who want to research will find it difficult to go access archives, do any sort of research. So that's the first. I mean, that's literally the first practical block that happens, and that is in, you know, with regard to research. And of course, it then spreads to filmmaking and cultural life as well. So the minute you have conflict, these barriers come down. And unfortunately, in it's. Well, it's everybody who suffers, really, the ordinary people, because we can't research, filmmakers can't travel, musicians can't travel. And. Yeah, it doesn't help anybody.
- [23:49]
Sumita Mukherjee
Yeah, I mean, it's been very difficult over the last few years anyway with the geopolitical tensions in the region for people with Indian passports to research in Pakistan and vice versa. So this has only escalated things. It's hard. And I guess there's also. All of us in this conversation are kind of Interested in history, right. And understand the role of history and understanding contemporary conflicts. But it's also, it's important, right, to note that these kind of conflicts are, although they're rooted in present day issues, they also have long standing historical reasons for these conflicts. So there's an opportunity to reiterate and understand the long standing history behind, especially with Kashmir, why there's so much conflict over that region.
- [24:40]
Shravani Basu
I mean, I don't think people actually know the real history of what happened during Partition in Kashmir. It's just lost in just this. You know, everybody knows there's been wars over Kashmir, but nobody knows what actually happened, how this line of partition was drawn, how the maharaja, the Hindu maharaja went over to India, how the invasion happened, why this conflict started in the first place. I don't think anybody, you know, across the board, I mean, of people who know, know, but largely people don't know and they just know it as conflict over Kashmir and you know, barriers coming down, wars, which it is, of course, but it is, as you say, it's so important to know why and take it from there.
- [25:21]
Sumita Mukherjee
I think it's also coupled with geographical literacy, so understanding the geography of the region, understanding where Kashmir is located, understanding the environmental reason, the water kind of lines and everything else. So like understanding these histories is related to actually understanding the geographies of the world and also South Asia. It's really important.
- [25:42]
Shalina Patel
Yeah, I definitely agree and I was asked to talk about this on the radio quite a lot when the tensions started flaring up. And I made it very clear that I wanted to talk about the history because I think exactly like you've both said, I think there's a real, again, a real absence of understanding of, of the Partition story of how these borders were drawn. And again, I, I always make the point that this is also a shared history with Britain. The story of Partition is a British story as well as a South Asian story. And yet it is so woefully misunderstood. So I think, you know, there's also a lot of kind of unraveling that you have to do with these kinds of histories. Because, you know, this kind of history shouldn't be contentious, but it is because of the way in which it was kind of kind of portrayed at the time. But also, of course, because going back to what we said before about, there's also been an absence of kind of personal stories about, about this history as well, because of all of the, you know, horrific things that happened at that time as well. So I think there's, so that's Kind of the. The personal, the political, the geographical, as Samitas just said, there's so many things that I think factor into why this is such a misunderstood history. But again, exactly like what everyone's just said, why it's so important that we tackle those things. Because understanding that what has happened in the past is, you know, obviously this is such a history teacher thing to say, but, you know, you have to, you know, in order to understand our present, you do have to go back to the past and, you know, and understand how these things came to be. And so, yeah, I totally agree that. I think it's so important that we go back to understanding how this all happened.
- [27:16]
Shravani Basu
And the other problem is that it then comes back here to, you know, to Britain because you, when the conflict broke, you had ugly scenes outside the India High Commission and the Pakistan High Commission did something you absolutely do not need. You know, the South Asian community here should be united rather than divided. And yet, you know, there were arrests and there was conflict. So it then comes onto these shores, which is another. It becomes a law and order problem as well.
- [27:41]
Sumita Mukherjee
So.
- [27:42]
Shravani Basu
And divisive, very divisive to move on.
- [27:46]
Unknown Host
To shining a spotlight on some of the research that's going on currently, some of the thinking that's going on currently about these histories. What are some of the developments or directions in terms of historical research that you'd like to highlight for listeners?
- [27:59]
Sumita Mukherjee
So I'll talk about my own work. That's okay. First of all, I am working on the history of children, South Asian children and then migration to Britain. And this is part of a growing field of looking at children in history not just as kind of distant young people who just kind of in the background, but actually as historical actors themselves. And the role that young people actually had in engaging with history and changing history, changing society, changing politics themselves, and really trying to bring them into the history that we tell. There's also some really good work that my. I have colleagues who are working on the kind of informal labor of women, women who are involved in housework and homework, as in homeworking, so maybe sewing, child minding, all the kind of things that people, that women often do at home, which isn't recorded either by kind of formal economies, but also in kind of formal economic histories, and to really understand the contribution that South Asian women have had to the economy in Britain, especially women of Pakistani origin in northern England. So my colleague, Leela Dunn has been doing some excellent work around there. So there's lots of. There's still lots of areas of history and kind of approaches to history that are still being developed, and lots to say about South Asian histories of Britain as well, of course, of the region itself.
- [29:29]
Shalina Patel
I'm so excited to find out more about all your work you're doing on children in South Asia. I can't wait to read about this and to integrate it into my lessons as well. So I guess talking from, like, the personal down to other things, obviously, with my book, the history lessons, I've really tried to show how the classic things that you learn at school, how actually South Asian history is so interwoven and connected with all of those things. So my book kind of goes through, you know, medieval to modern and goes through all those familiar, you know, times and people and events in history. But I've kind of sewn in lots of South Asian history to show that we can't look at South Asian history in a silo. That actually there are so many connections that you can make with South Asian history and with things that are so familiar to us already. I think one of the greats in terms of who's doing so many brilliant things for South Asian history is definitely Kavita Puri, especially her work that she's done recently on the Bengal famine. We talked about. Shivana. You talked about oral histories, obviously, just now. And I think Kavita's done such important work in managing to interview people who were there during the Bengal famine before they passed. And obviously, she did something very similar with Partition voices as well. So I think her way of looking at these histories through the real personal stories, I think that is so important. And I know that that's really inspired me. Whenever I talk to young people and whenever I kind of talk to audiences, I always try to encourage them to record their family histories as well and to talk to their, you know, their grandparents, if they. If they still have them around to, you know, to really record those migration stories. And I did the same with my granddad. There are so many things I didn't know about his migration story that I now know because. Because Kavita made me talk to him about his story. So I think that's really important. And then I wanted to talk actually about a kind of more of a grassroots kind of route through talking about South Asian history. And it's a friend of mine, actually, Anisha Palmer, who's a jeweler, and she has been organizing events for South Asian women where she invites South Asian women to come to her events and to use some of their family jewelry as a way to explore their heritage and their history. And it has been so incredible to go to some of these events and just to see young South Asian people really kind of delve into their identity and heritage through the medium of jewelry and gold jewelry in particular. So I think that's such a fascinating way of tackling these kinds of histories because, you know, when we think about South Asian items in museums, often we are thinking about jewelry, right? We're thinking about these beautiful, ornate pieces that, you know, worn by maharajas and royalty, et cetera. But I think it's so interesting that she's made that personal. And we've all got, you know, I've got my grandma's bangles on right now, for example. So, you know, I think we can all really relate to that. And I think it's such an interesting way of exploring history. So, yeah, I think those kinds of projects are really, really brilliant.
- [32:23]
Shravani Basu
Yeah. Well, speaking for myself, I have written about some of the unknown stories from history. Victoria and Abdul was about, you know, Victoria's relationship with this Indian man, Abdul Karim, and just brought out little nuggets like Victoria learn to read and write in Urdu, which people just didn't know. And, you know, these were things I was discovering myself as I was researching, which was all fun. But apart from my books, I want to talk about some of the new research that's happening. And I've always been passionate, as you heard, about Indian soldiers in both the First World War and Second World War. And I do help the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with some of the reports they do. And there was a report on how many of the names from India and Africa were not commemorated despite, you know, this pledge that every soldier who died would be commemorated with a headstone. So some years back, that report was published. And now post that report, there is a project to get those names out and actually commemorate them. So it's been going on for two or three years. I'm helping with that. And some fantastic work has been done by Greenwich University and the UK Punjab Heritage Trust, uk pha. They have found the names of. It's called the Punjab Register of Names, which were buried in the museum in Lahore of over, I think, 300,000 soldiers from the Punjab in the First World War, with detailed regiments when they joined, if they died. So just these ledgers are there. And so often I get emails and so do lots of others saying, we had a grandfather, we've heard of him, he went to the war, don't know where he went, don't know his regiment. How do you trace it? So if he was from the Punjab and they at least know his name, maybe his regiment. They will actually be able to trace these. And then there is the project to commemorate them in further if they were not commemorated. So I find that quite exciting. And it's a way of making right, you know, something that was wrong because they didn't really commemorate. 50,000 Indian names were lost. They were just mentioned as a group. And it's just like 50,000, as if the number and the names don't matter. Whereas here in every village, everybody is there by name. So these little wrongs, you know, if they can be righted, they can never be righted completely. But it's just a move. And I think it's a beautiful gesture because it brings the two countries together. Britain knows that, you know, this contribution came from India. I speak of undivided India and, you know, they know their role in it. It. So, yeah, it just gives some respect. It gives. It gives those whose ancestors went, who live in this country as well, you know, a feeling of ownership that we too contributed in this. So I think there's a lot to be gained by just getting these names out there and showing them their respect.
- [35:17]
Sumita Mukherjee
I've also been involved in a project which is a really great project called Salvation Britain. And we're launching a website in July of this year in conjunction with South Asian Heritage Month, where we have created a website which contains over 800 pages around different South Asian people, organizations and events in the United Kingdom. And one of the great things it does is we look at. We don't just look at England, we look at Northern Ireland. So I think the history of South Asian migration to the whole United Kingdom is very England, South England centric, London centric. But we have new oral histories for people who migrated to Northern Ireland, people who worked in Scotland and Hebrides in Wales, in Cornwall. And I think there's some really interesting research which is really trying to stretch our understanding of South Asian contributions to the whole United Kingdom going on as well.
- [36:09]
Shravani Basu
Were they forced to come? I mean, like, we know the indentured labor that went to Mauritius and the Caribbean. Was there something like that got to the uk? I mean, apart from the wars, I mean.
- [36:21]
Sumita Mukherjee
Yeah, I mean, you had domestic servants who came over with families in the 19th century. I don't know, they're kind of forced in some way. So you may be aware of the story of ayahs, so nursemaids who came with families and were abandoned in the uk. Aruna Madata has written a great book, came out last year about this, which is amazing about yeah, these. So these nursemaids who came over with British families who. Who had had. Whose children were born in India, they came over to the UK with the children to accompany them on their ship journeys. And then once they arrived in the United Kingdom, the families would discard the nannies because they no longer wanted brown nannies in the United Kingdom. And these destitute women would find themselves. Often they would be abandoned across the whole United Kingdom and they'd find their way to London, where there was an eyes home run by the London City Mission, who would help. Help get their fares to return back to the subcontinent. So you had also male servants who in similar ways brought over with families even in the 18th century and then often abandoned. So the whole history of runaway servants of both black and South Asian heritage in the 18th and 19th century.
- [37:32]
Shravani Basu
Yeah, fascinating. Thanks.
- [37:35]
Shalina Patel
There is now a plaque on the old ayah's home in Hackney, I think, which is amazing. And obviously, Ronnie, you know, obviously, no Anyat Khan obviously has a blue plaque as well. I was present when they unveiled Safa Dalip Singh's plaque a couple of years ago as well. So I think what is really exciting is that there are these kind of movements that are having successes with really highlighting South Asian history in a really mainstream way. And I do think that's important. I do think it's important that people will walk past a building and. And see a South Asian name and understand Smith, I think really relevant to what you said earlier as well, which is understanding that actually South Asian presence has a really long history in the uk. And I think that what's amazing is we are seeing more and more of this kind of public acknowledgement, I suppose, of some of these stories. And I would like to see plenty more, but I think it's great. That is something that's starting. And I do think that there are a lot of young people that really engage in a lot of this work as well. So if I think about now compared to when I was in, you know, when I was much younger, the amount of kind of events that there are throughout the year that celebrate, you know, South Asian history, you know, I've been to events at the vna, for example, where there have been South Asian takeovers and things like that. So I think it's really amazing that actually, you know, the kind of the diaspora is really kind of taking over spaces that have not necessarily been seen to be part of, you know, what belongs to us, I suppose. So I think. Yeah. So I think that is something that's really, really exciting. As well.
- [39:08]
Unknown Host
We Somehow only have 5 minutes left with each other. So to somehow do justice to these enormous themes, we've already talked about a whole lot of them. If you could leave listeners with a thought that you'd like them to take away with them, what would you like that to be?
- [39:22]
Shravani Basu
I mean, I'd love them to. To read, you know, just read about South Asian history and just find out these stories and know why they belonged to, why they came here and why, you know, what they did here, and know that this is a part of British history. I mean, I wouldn't even call it. It's a part of British history as much as it is a part of South Asian history.
- [39:46]
Sumita Mukherjee
So my leaving thought would be to not only think about South Asian history or heritage in just in the half of July and half of August every year, but think about it all through the year and to really think of South Asia in its full geographical expanse and to get familiar with the region, look at the maps. There's such interesting geographical diversity in that region.
- [40:11]
Shalina Patel
For me, I think my takeaway would be to really question the narrative, I think, especially when it comes to our war story. I think so. I think, you know, every day we are bombarded with, you know, documentaries, et cetera, about World War I and World War II. And I think it's really important that people listening to this podcast are clearly interested in history, Right? And so I think, I think to all the listeners out there, the next time you see, you know, something about the world wars and there isn't the mention of the contribution of colonial soldiers, whether that is soldiers from South Asia or from other parts of the world, I think it's really, really important to question how full is this picture that I'm being given, because, you know, we have diaries and photographs and film footage and all sorts of things that evidence, you know, the. The huge, massive contribution that colonial soldiers made to our victories in World War I and World War II. And I think the absence of those stories, I'm still quite amazed that it's 2025 and we're actually still kind of fighting for those stories to be part of this. This history. So, yeah, I think question the narrative. And certainly if your children are at school and not learning about anything to do with, you know, the empire or South Asian history, then please question that, because I don't think that students should be going through Certainly Key Stage 3 history and not learning about some of these histories.
- [41:32]
Matt Elton
That was Shalina Patel, Sumita Mukherjee and Shravani Basu. Shalina is a historian, teacher and author. The paperback of her first book, the History Lessons, is out now published by Icon. Sumita is a professor of modern history at the University of Bristol, and Shraboni is a historian and journalist whose books include 2010's Victoria and and Abdul, which was adapted into a 2017 film of the same name. Together, the panel discussed Kavita Puri's work, and you can read Kavita's regular Hidden Histories column on the History Extra website.