Harriet Martineau: life of the week

Summary

HistoryExtra Podcast — “Harriet Martineau: Life of the Week”

Date: March 24, 2026
Guest: Stuart Hobday (biographer), interviewed by Matt Elton
Episode Theme: A rich exploration of the life, work, and legacy of Harriet Martineau, one of the 19th century’s most radical, wide-ranging, and overlooked thinkers, reformers, and pioneering women writers.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary life and impact of Harriet Martineau (1802–1876), a trailblazing 19th-century writer, thinker, and campaigner. Despite being a celebrity in her time, Martineau’s reputation dimmed after her death, largely due to her radical positions on issues such as atheism, women’s rights, free-market economics, and abolitionism. Stuart Hobday, one of Martineau’s leading biographers, discusses her journey from a sickly and poor young woman in Norwich to a globally influential public intellectual, ahead of her time as a sociologist, journalist, and activist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life, Influences, and Context (03:33–07:18)

• Family & Background: Born in Norwich in 1802, into a Unitarian, nonconformist, free-thinking family. Norwich was “quite a free thinking circle... a bit more freedom for women as well” (Stuart Hobday, 05:12).
• Societal Backdrop: Her father’s business was devastated by the Crash of 1825. His death and the resulting financial hardship forced Martineau into independence and economic self-education.
• Enduring Illness: Deteriorating health and the onset of deafness as a teenager shaped her character and drive. “She was a very indomitable character, very determined... all these things ... did her a favor and she became a reader. She stayed in and read and read and read” (06:18).
• Intellectual Apprenticeship: Influenced by Joseph Priestley and Unitarian ideals of social duty, free-thinking, and humanitarianism—a circle that prefigured associations with figures like the Darwins and Wedgwoods.

Becoming a Writer: Economic Tales and Literary Fame (08:02–12:03)

• Turning Point: Her father’s death forced Martineau to write professionally. “She had to make a living... it became the pressure that suddenly drove that on” (08:24).
• Breakthrough: In 1832, began issuing monthly “Illustrations of Political Economy”—fictional tales used to popularize economic theory for the general public.
  • Notably, “Life in the Wild”, a parable of Adam Smith’s philosophy, was a significant hit.
• Sudden Stardom: “Within a couple of years she was a famous author in London... she was ahead of Dickens” in sales (10:44).
• International Reach: Her work was beloved in America, Russia, and across the British Empire. “She became in demand... politicians wanted her to write a tale about their thing that they wanted to get over” (11:31).
• Notable Praise: Lord Brougham, Chancellor: “There’s a young deaf girl from Norwich who’s doing more than any man in the country for politics” (11:56).

Social Radicalism & Pushback (13:18–14:48)

• Authors like John Stuart Mill offered condescending reviews—her popularity often overcame critical dismissal.
• Her tales sometimes courted controversy, for example criticizing Russia’s treatment of Poles or foreshadowing debates on social welfare.

Core Ideas: Economics, Opportunity & Contradictions (14:48–17:30)

• Economic Views: Radical free-market advocate but always in service of increased equality of opportunity—“this was about greater equality of opportunity and equality across society, that this was the best way of running society” (14:48).
• Championing “Everyone”: Believed “everybody has potential to find their thing or to pursue their thing”—radical in including women and minorities in this vision.
• Notable Character: Wrote about Ella of Gavlock—a tenacious woman overcoming economic collapse—a “favorite of Queen Victoria” (15:22).

The America Tour: Abolitionism & Sociology’s Beginnings (17:44–19:45, 21:30–23:13)

• Abolitionist Witness: Traveled to America (1834–1836) and visited the White House, saw an assassination attempt, and methodically observed slavery in the south.
• Activism: Joined anti-slavery campaigns and made public denunciations despite risk—her statements “were reported in the press and there were threats on her life” (18:37).
• American Legacy: Remembered more in America (e.g., former statue at Wellesley College), especially by abolitionists and feminist scholars.
• Pioneering Sociological Methods: Upon return, wrote Society in America and How to Observe Morals and Manners—“one of the first books to say what’s the valid evidence in measuring a society ... ongoing issue in sociology” (23:13).

Wit & Humor in Writing (24:52–25:23)

• Martineau’s sharp wit and observational humor colored her travelogues (e.g., scathing reviews of a singer on a Mississippi boat).

Ill Health, Mesmerism & Further Radicalization (25:23–27:41)

• Illness: A five-year bedridden period in Tynemouth led her to experiment with mesmerism for healing and write Life in the Sick Room, an early meditation on chronic illness and mortality.
• Atheism & Science: Correspondence with Henry Atkinson published as Letters on the Laws of Man’s Nature (1850), scandalously arguing for a naturalistic, atheistic view of the mind—precursor to Darwinian evolution.

Autobiography & Legacy (29:20–30:50)

• Wrote her autobiography in 1855 thinking she would soon die; it was so radical and scathing that it only published posthumously in 1876.
• Martineau returned caustic judgments of her contemporaries and lampooned the establishment (“boorish drunks” in politics).

The First Female Journalist (31:09–32:45)

• Authored over 1,600 leaders for the Daily News (opposing The Times), making her arguably the first modern campaigning journalist—often anonymously. “They were the very model of a modern campaigning journalist. And she should be famous for those alone” (31:09).
• Provided near-contemporaneous coverage of the run-up to the US Civil War, Lincoln’s election, and the abolition debate from an informed, connected outsider’s perspective.

Later Collaborations & Feminist Campaigns (32:45–35:14)

• With Florence Nightingale: Encouraged and promoted Nightingale’s work on hospital reform and nurse training post-Crimea.
• With Josephine Butler: Backed the first feminist campaign against the punitive laws targeting women in garrison towns, helping repeal sexist legislation.

Personal Life, Sexuality & Domesticity (35:14–36:46)

• Never married, speculated by some scholars to be a lesbian, but no firm evidence exists. Martineau was fiercely independent and prioritized her work.
• Designed and ran a model sustainable farm at Ambleside, writing practical articles (“Our Farm of Two Acres”) that foreshadowed the “good life” genre.

Literary Mentorship & Fiction (36:57–38:12)

• Engaged and mentored literary figures such as George Eliot, Charlotte Brontë, and Elizabeth Gaskell—considered a “literary grandmother.”
• Wrote a dystopian science fiction novel about unchecked urbanization—destroyed after publisher rejection.

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Memorable Quotes

• On her radicalism and neglect:
  “She was almost too radical. So much so that she was sort of forgotten, really. And the establishment wrote her out of the 19th century narrative. She became known as a sort of notorious atheist.”
  — Stuart Hobday (02:48)

• On overcoming adversity:
  “If nothing else, she’s very representative of the power of writing through her life. And she definitely wrote about deafness in a very modern way ... you must be determined, not let it hold you back and to not be sitting around feeling sorry for yourself.”
  — Stuart Hobday (06:18)

• On the breadth of her impact:
  “There’s a young deaf girl from Norwich who’s doing more than any man in the country for politics.”
  — Lord Brougham, quoted by Hobday (11:56)

• On Martineau’s vision of society:
  “Everybody has potential, everybody has potential to find their thing or to pursue their thing … Her writing can be quite inspiring and she definitely included everybody in that.”
  — Stuart Hobday (16:44)

• On her legacy as a journalist:
  “They were the very model of a modern campaigning journalist. And she should be famous for those alone.”
  — Stuart Hobday (31:09)

• On working with Nightingale:
  “Florence Nightingale looked up to Harriet … a formidable partnership, publicizing the need for better hospitals and nurse training.”
  — Stuart Hobday (33:02)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Martineau’s background & radical roots: 03:33–07:18
• First literary success—‘Illustrations of Political Economy’: 09:07–12:03
• Martineau’s social philosophy & economic beliefs: 13:30–17:30
• Martineau in America & abolitionist work: 17:44–19:45
• International recognition vs UK neglect: 21:30–22:57
• Foundational work in sociology: 23:07–24:51
• Humor in Martineau's writing: 24:51–25:23
• Mesmerism and “Life in the Sick Room”: 25:23–27:41
• Atheism & influence on free thought: 27:41–29:20
• Autobiography & candid opinions: 29:20–30:50
• Trailblazing journalism at Daily News: 31:09–32:45
• Feminist campaigns and partnerships: 32:45–35:14
• Speculation about Martineau’s sexuality & domestic writings: 35:14–36:46
• Literary mentorship and the lost dystopian novel: 36:57–38:12
• Modern commemoration efforts & closing remarks: 38:12–39:18

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Closing Notes: Martineau’s Revival and Legacy

Stuart Hobday highlights ongoing efforts to recover Martineau’s legacy through public lectures, the Martineau Society, and history festivals in Norwich. As both a catalyst and chronicler of her age, Harriet Martineau remains a pivotal yet under-acknowledged architect of modern social thought.

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For further reading:

• Stuart Hobday, "Encounters with Harriet Martineau: A Victorian Living Ahead of Her Time"
• Society in America and How to Observe Morals and Manners by Harriet Martineau

Explore more:
Norwich History Festival | Martineau Society online resources

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Summary prepared by HistoryExtra Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

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[Narrator]

Thinker, feminist, sociologist, campaigner. 19th century writer Harriet Martineau was a pioneer and a radical across a huge range of areas, but it's very likely that you've never heard of her. In this episode of the History Extra Podcast, Stuart Hobday tells Matt Elton about a figure who played a key role in shaping the modern world and wasn't afraid to ruffle some feathers along the way.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Stuart, thank you so much for being with us on the History Extra Podcast.

[Matt Elton]

Today.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

We are here to talk about someone

[Matt Elton]

who, and this is a bit of a confession right at the top from me, despite me having studied sociology for a fair number of years, I had not heard about until fairly recently.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you just, in a very brief

[Matt Elton]

nutshell, talk about who we're gonna be covering today?

[Stuart Hobday]

We're talking about Harriet Martineau. I've written a couple of books about Harriet Martineau in the last few years, and there is a growth of interest in. She was a radical writer in the 19th century and she was almost too radical. So much so that she was sort of forgotten, really. And the establishment wrote her out of the 19th century narrative. She became known as a sort of notorious atheist. And of course, that didn't go down too well in the 1850s. And from that point onwards she wasn't super well remembered. But there's a growth of interest in her. She's regarded as a founder of sociology, as you said, but also for economic writing and the secular thought as well. She was a lifelong anti slavery campaigner. So there's a whole range of reasons why she's come back into vogue.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

It's really interesting.

[Matt Elton]

Her life intersects with, and she's a driving force behind so many different ideas that we associate with the period in which she lived. And we'll unpack those as we go through the conversation. Just to rewind right at the start. What are the ideas and what are the social forces that we need to understand to make sense of the world into which Harriet was born, both in terms of her family life and in terms of the wider state of society in which she lived?

[Stuart Hobday]

She was born in 1802 in Norwich. Her father was a textiles manufacturer and she, as a young woman, witnessed the crash of 1825 that led to his death. To be honest, he became very depressed and died. And she became interested in economics. And she was one of the first people to write in a popular way about economics. There was a real gap then between the general public that were affected by economics and the sort of upper class that ran the country. And she was pretty radical from the start. As a woman writing about economics, that was unheard of, really. Well, not totally unheard of because there was Jane Marseille as well, the French economic writer, who inspired Martineau. And we're talking the 1830s, when these economic writings became very popular straight away. And this was a time of. They called it the radical 30s in. In London. She moved to London from Norwich and became a notorious radical person, really, in

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

order to make sense of the radical

[Matt Elton]

thinker and writer that she became in the 1830s.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Are there any factors that we need

[Matt Elton]

to trace backwards from that point?

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Was the ancestry of her parents an important factor, was their particular religious faith an important factor in shaping her radicalism.

[Stuart Hobday]

Norwich has become known for a very dissenting circle in the late 18th century, early 19th century and a lot of non conformist thoughts. And her family, the Martineau family, were Unitarians at the Octagon in Norwich. And Norwich became known as this quite a free thinking circle of people. There's also quite an unusual thing in that we see the rise of Elizabeth Fry at the same time from Norwich, who became famous prison reformer, and Amelia Opie who's another anti slavery campaigner. So between them that's quite an unusual threesome. So that somehow there was this a bit more freedom for women as well. And because it was a time of stricture for women. So that's one thing Norwich was known for. But also this is the start of the Industrial Revolution really beginning in earnest in the early 19th century. And as I say, watching the crash of 1825 had a big influence on Martineau's life and thinking.

[Matt Elton]

One other recurring theme, sadly, was that of illness. At what point during her childhood, during her early life, did she first encounter bouts of ill health?

[Stuart Hobday]

She wrote later. She wrote an autobiography later and she described her childhood as being quite unhappy and she was ill for a lot of the time. She also became deaf as a teenager. She had no sense of taste or smell. And so she, right from the start she was overcoming these difficulties. In some ways it's typical of Martineau. If you read the autobiography, she was a very indomitable character, very determined. She was quite an inspiring figure. If you go back and look at her life, because she said all these things were did her a favor and she became a reader. She stayed in and read and read and read. And then she became a writer. And she's very much, if nothing else, she's very representative of the power of writing through her life. And she definitely wrote about deafness in a very modern way, in a way that you must be determined, not let it hold you back and to not be sitting around feeling sorry for yourself.

[Matt Elton]

You mentioned there that during her teenage years she read and read and read.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Do we have a sense of what

[Matt Elton]

sort of things she was reading?

[Stuart Hobday]

She very much became a disciple of Joseph Priestley, who was a scientist, but he was also a powerful Unitarian writer and that was to do with freedom of conscience. And the Unitarians very much had a sense of you must do a duty in society. And they were less interested in the dogma of Church of England or the Catholic Church and more about it was a free thinking, humanitarian approach. And that itself was quite a powerful thing because the talk more about the influence with Darwin. But the Darwin family were Unitarians as well. And they were part of a circle, really, with the Wedgwoods that became very free thinking and humanitarian and wanted to improve the world.

[Matt Elton]

I'm always really interested in figures like this when you're tracing their story. The moment when they pivot almost from being an avid reader into becoming a writer. And you've written that it was during the 1820s that Harriet realized her calling is the phrase you use.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Was there a moment when this happened, or was it a coalescing of lots

[Matt Elton]

of different factors and forces?

[Stuart Hobday]

I think definitely the death of her father was a turning point because she suddenly had to make a living. And in the autobiography, she sort of said they were basically left with nothing. They had no income at all. And she was living with a mother and a sister at the time. And again in the autobiography, there's quite a famous passage where she sort of says this was a time for action. It was galvanizing. And she had already started writing and there was interest in her writing. But it sort of almost that she had to make a living from. It became the pressure that suddenly drove that on. She was also a good needle worker, so she did needlework as well on the side. But the writing really caught on and galvanised her to move forward with that.

[Matt Elton]

So 1832 was a really big year for her in that she did make this pivot. She'd made this pivot from reading to writing.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

And this was the first time at

[Matt Elton]

which she wrote for a general audience. A series of works that I think are perhaps slightly unusual to modern sensibilities.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you talk about the form they

[Matt Elton]

took and the impact they had?

[Stuart Hobday]

I suppose 1832 was an interesting year because that's the great Reform Act, a time of great political change in this country and greater democracy. And so she was entering this world and she started writing these tales. They were fictional tales that were issued monthly. The first one was called Life in the Wild. It was an illustration of Adam Smith's philosophy. And it was quite an interesting tale because it was about a group of people that get stranded on a desert island and what happens? And it was a really good portrayal of Adam Smith's what would happen in that situation? What do a group of human beings do to survive? And they all find their own skill and their own particular contribution to society. And that was a big hit. And she had accepted a publishing deal that was a Bit risky. It was dependent on her selling 500 copies for it to be successful and. And to keep them going. And actually, pretty soon she was selling thousands of copies. And within a couple of years she was a famous author in London, writing these monthly illustrations of economics. And they were, you know, very much the hit of the day, really. And as I say, she has been lauded as the first person to write in that way.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Is it right to say that she at one point was outselling Dickens?

[Stuart Hobday]

Definitely. In the early 1830s she was ahead of Dickens. So this is pre Dickens becoming a hit writer and he became a popular writer in the same sort of way, issuing things monthly. So it was a bit of a thing of the time to. To do that. There was also a growth in literacy in, in the 1820s and 1830s, so it chimed with the public wanting more of this type of thing. So they were a hit and she became famous. The other thing was, this was a time when Britain was very closely tied with the Empire still. So they were widely read in America, they were widely read around the Empire. They were actually. The French courts started issuing her tales. And in Russia, she was widely read in Russia. So she was actually became famous almost overnight, really, having been an unhappy young, deaf young young lady in Norwich, she moved to London and became famous almost overnight. And she talked about being lionised in London and a lot of people coalesced around her as well. Her house was visited by politicians who wanted her to write a tale about their thing that they wanted to get over. So she actually became in demand. And I think it was Lord Broram who became Chancellor, who said, there's a young deaf girl from Norwich who's doing more than any man in the country for politics.

[Matt Elton]

Two questions off the back of that.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Do we get a sense of what

[Matt Elton]

she made of this fame?

[Stuart Hobday]

She did play it down and she wrote a piece about being lionized, where she said it wasn't really what she wanted. But on the other hand, I think she also wrote in her autobiography that it was a turning point, moving to London, and that people accepted her deafness straight away because that's how she arrived. She had a routine of writing every morning. She'd get up and write every morning and then she'd have visitors in the afternoon. She would host soirees with people like Carlisle, Thomas Carlisle and the Darwins became a real circle in London in the 80s, 1830s.

[Matt Elton]

And you mentioned Darwin there. I think I'm right in saying that in May 1834, Darwin's sisters sent him a letter explaining to him how big a deal she had become.

[Stuart Hobday]

Yeah. And she sent him copies of these tales and said every. Everybody is reading them and. Yeah, so certainly there's quite a lot of evidence that Darwin read quite a lot of what she wrote in the 1830s and had quite an influence on. On him. But then in 1834 she's also took the radical decision to visit America. I think she'd become interested in slavery and wanted slavery in action.

[Matt Elton]

Let's just pause there before we head into America. Cause the second point that I want to pick up with you is you

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

mentioned the fact that some of the

[Matt Elton]

commentary she received was that she was doing more than any man was in the field she was working.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Was there any pushback from I suppose

[Matt Elton]

the male dominated establishment to her work?

[Stuart Hobday]

There was pushback and someone like John Stuart Mill, he wrote a review of the illustrations and actually he wasn't taking them seriously at all. He was quite. It was a really condescending review of what she was coming up with. So there were powerful people who weren't accepting of it and she sort of almost conquered it by the popularity. You know, they were selling like hotcakes. So that's one example. But also just some of the tales I mentioned that she was popular in Russia and it was slightly typical of Martineau that once she found this out and the next tale she wrote was actually criticizing Russia for their treatment of Polish people. A lot of these tales are really fascinating for the fact that the content is still relevant today. So something like Cousin Marshall was a tale she wrote about how people shouldn't rely on the poor law, that it would encourage people to live off, in effect living off benefits. So that's obviously still something that's current today. Anticipating the welfare state, I wanted to

[Matt Elton]

just pause a little bit and unpick some of the ideas that she was espousing because they're interesting and they are relevant and sometimes there is talk about there being contradictions between how she saw things. So let's just have a think about these ideas. What would you say generally was her view of the way in which society should operate?

[Stuart Hobday]

She was very much a free marketeer. She was an advocate of Adam Smith, but she was also pretty clear, a bit similar to Adam Smith himself, that this was about greater equality of opportunity and equality across society, that this was the best way of running society. I don't think either of them could have anticipated the extent of inequality that would come about from free markets. You know, sweet. But that in itself is fascinating, isn't it? Because Free markets has become a powerful idea in the 20th century. There's no two ways about that. And so she was an advocate of free markets. And as I say, she was a manufacturer's daughter. She's very much about responsible manufacturers, responsible managers looking after their staff. But she was also a fan of cooperatives. They were quite feminist. The original economic tale. So there was a character she wrote about twice called Ella of Gavloch, who was a favorite of Queen Victoria. And Ella of Gavlock basically overcomes huge difficulty. Again, it's a collapse of a business where a woman is left looking after young children and she turns the situation around through sheer hard work and determination. And that was the typical Martineau tale, was the Ella of Gaviloc tales. So it was very much get off your backside and turn it around type attitude allied to a free market. As I say, they're loaded subjects these days. But you have to take yourself back to the 1830s, when really there was a big gap between the poor and downtrodden and people making something of themselves. Moving upwards was quite a new thing, really.

[Matt Elton]

And was there any tension between her economic view and her belief every person deserves the chance to lift themselves up? Or is that explained by the fact that she did believe that everyone had the power to be able to pick up members of a society and of the economy?

[Stuart Hobday]

Yeah, I mean, that was a strain that ran through her writing throughout her life because her writing does evolve from these early economic tales into more sophisticated positions. But actually a strain through all her life was that everybody has potential, everybody has potential to find their thing or to pursue their thing. And that's what I mean. Her writing can be quite inspiring and she definitely included everybody in that. So again, it was radical at the time to include women in that. And she wrote a biography of Toussaint l' Ouverture to champion the fact that. Look at this guy who led the revolution in Haiti and became their leader. So she was pretty radical from the start in advocating that everybody should give it a go.

[Matt Elton]

So let's get into the trip to America you mentioned previously, which she set off on in 1834. It lasted almost two years. When she came back to London, she produced a typically outspoken analysis of what she'd encountered.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you talk about where she went, what she experienced and I suppose what her analysis was?

[Stuart Hobday]

Yes. So she arrived in New York in 1834 as a well known author, so doors were open to her and one of the first places she went was the White House, where she was welcomed by the vice President Van Buren and President Andrew Jackson. And she actually witnessed, she'd only been there about three weeks and she witnessed an assassination attempt on the President. And they also painted a portrait of her at Congress as well. And then she, she set off. She did have a female companion and they set off. I think her main mission was to go and this was very typical of her, to go and observe slavery in person. And that became the dominant theme of the tour and her subsequent writing about it because she started set off traveling down the south south slave states to meet slaveholders and observe it in action. And she pretty much kept a low profile in terms of being anti slavery while she did that. And she went full circle, ended up back in Boston a year later and at the meeting of women's anti slavery meeting, she made a short speech saying slavery was an abomination. And this was reported in the press and there were threats on her life. This was a time of mob behavior, the 1830s and the anti slavery abolitionists were regarded almost like a terrorist group really back then. And it was still a radical position to take. She got to know the leader of the abolitionist, William Garrison very well and his circle. And they lauded her because she was the famous author joining them who was going to write about it. And that's what she did. Subsequently, she did have to go into sort of hiding for about six weeks she stayed with prominent Americans, almost keeping a low profile before she could actually travel back. So it was very much an intrepid tour.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

And if you want to find out

[Matt Elton]

more stories of radical and pioneering women, there's plenty more to discover on the History Extra website. I've put a link to that in the description of this episode.

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[Matt Elton]

bit at the start of our conversation about the fact that she's surprisingly little known in the uk, but my understanding from what you've written is that actually in the States she's much more of a well known figure. Is this because of the things she did when she was in America?

[Stuart Hobday]

Yeah, very much so, because she continued to have those links as well. So throughout the rest of her life she corresponded with particularly the abolitionists, but there were other prominent Americans that she corresponded with. So she had an inside track with American politics throughout the rest of her life and writing. And yes, she's definitely lauded probably in two main ways, I would say the anti slavery. So there was a statue of Harriet Martineau who was raised at Wellesley College, the all female Wellesley College. It sadly burnt down, but it was there for about 40 years and there is still a remnant of the statue at Wellesley College that I've seen. And yeah, when I went to America to research Harriet Martineau, it was a turning point for me because everywhere you went, people knew about her, the libraries, the museums, and somehow she was better remembered in America than over here. She's also now being well remembered by things like gender studies and contemporary studies in sociology in America, four being first wave feminists. So somehow, yeah, I think there's been about 10 biographies of Martineau and I think seven or eight of them were written by Americans.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

And though the work she published of

[Matt Elton]

her time in America is a classic example of the way in which she was one of the pioneering voices in sociological methods.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you explain to us the kind

[Matt Elton]

of methods that she used and how they had an impact on later studies in that field?

[Stuart Hobday]

There's two texts that arrive when she comes back from America. One of them is called Society in America and that's generally now regarded as one of the first books to take an analytical view of a society in a country. And it was. She was basically comparing the current America to its original ideals, the original Constitution. And that is still a book that if you read it now, it's quite an attacking book. And she was scathing really, that America had built its society on slavery and that was the basis of the society there. But she also wrote a chapter in that book called the Political Non Existence of Women, which again was pretty amazing at the time. The other book she was invited to write was called how to Observe Morals and Manners and that was going to be part of a series, but it almost became the main production in that series and it was an analytical book of methods of how to analyze society and. And again that's been lauded in modern times as one of the first books to say what's the valid evidence in measuring a society and measuring what people do? Which has obviously been an ongoing issue in sociology and social sciences generally. So. So there are two books that were the late 1830s, quite radical. She also wrote a thing called Retrospect of Western Travel, which was much more travelogue and has got some of the funniest stories in it. So she had these two things running almost like a book that was more witty and easy to read and a travelogue, whilst definitely looking to analyze society and particularly America.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you give us a sense of

[Matt Elton]

some of that humour, some of that wit?

[Stuart Hobday]

She could be fairly scathing. She witnessed a singer, she was on the Mississippi on the boat and somebody gave a performance and she reviewed it by saying something like. Her only measure of quality was her own taste, hinting that she was a terrible singer, this woman. And there were things like that. In the autobiography there's quite a lot of casual asides. So this was written later. But some of the asides are worth reading, they're very cutting, you know, I think we could see that she might run into trouble with that sort of thing.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

And then we hit the 1840s, which

[Matt Elton]

is a period in which the ill health she'd experienced through her life resurfaced while she was in Venice and then she returned to be near her brother in law who was a doctor close to Newcastle. Can you tell talk us through the next five years in which she was ill and her use of mesmerism and how that went down.

[Stuart Hobday]

Martineau's life definitely divides between these distinct periods where she grew up in Norwich, then was in London for 10 years, including the visit to America. And then as you say, she was taken ill in Venice on a tour of Europe and ended up in Tynemouth, near Newcastle because her sisters husband lived there and he was a doctor. And she only went there for a short break, but she ended up in a sick bed for five years. The doctor, the brother in law doctor did administer what were the normal techniques for the time, but I guess she got frustrated with it. You know, she was quite unable to move much and after a couple of years she became interested in this mesmerism, which was a bit of a fad going around at the time. But then she typically, she started writing about that and helped popularize it and she felt that it did help her recover. She also made this connection with a guy called Henry Atkinson who was an advocate in London of mesmerism. And she went on to write a fairly radical book about nature with Henry Atkinson, which we'll come on to. But yeah, there's not a great time for her. And she did fall out with the brother in law doctor who said the mesmerism was no great scientific background to it. And she did recover after five years in Time Math. But she carried on writing while she was in Time Math. The output wasn't quite as much and she wrote four children's tales, so that's probably a sign of where she was. But she also wrote a book called Life in the Sick Room which is regarded as quite a radical text in itself because it was an analysis of what it's like to be sick, what it's like to be ill and long term and dealing with the idea that you're going to die. So it's quite a meditation on death in Life in the Sick Room.

[Matt Elton]

You mentioned Henry Atkinson there and he is a key figure in understanding, I suppose, her views on religion and on atheism throughout the 1850s. How did these views evolve and what would you characterise them as being?

[Stuart Hobday]

The book with Henry Atkinson that appeared was actually a compilation of their letters. I think they had decided they were going to publish these letters. They are a discussion about nature. They were called Letters on the Laws of Man's Nature. And they came out, as you say, in about 1850 and it did scandalize people because they basically argued that the mind, the human mind, is under nature. The broad argument of their letters was that the discovery of this changes everything and that there's nothing special about the human mind. And they rejected the idea that there was anything special about human beings generally. So it was a sort of almost a precursor. You know, this is 10 years before the Origin of Species, before Darwin enters his period of controversy. And so it was a precursor of evolutionary ideas. And it's totally fascinating text. It's quite hard to find. It was never republished and it scandalized the literary circle that she was a part of as well. I think Darwin's aunt called them two criminals. It caused a scandal, but it was part of the way she was going she'd also written a book called Eastern Life by then as well, where she visited the Middle east. And again, typical Martineau, she was interested in what was happening in what we now call the Middle East. And she went and she taught it with a group of people and subsequently wrote about what she found about the different religions. She was basically saying that people need to accept science, people need to move on from all these religions. So it was quite a radical stance in 1850.

[Matt Elton]

You've mentioned a few times through our conversation, the autobiography that she wrote, which she wrote in 1855, which was during a period of particularly poor health, at which I think I'm right in saying that she was convinced that she was going to die.

[Stuart Hobday]

She convinced she was going to die, and she sets out and writing an autobiography. And this was 1855. It was a very modern text. I reread it recently. I slightly had the feeling that she was settling some scores for the autobiography in the negative reaction she had had to the Atkinson letters and some of that circle that had turned their back on her, because there's definitely some fairly scathing portraits of people. But the other thing, when you talk about the humor, there's some funny descriptions of the politicians being drunk all the time, and she was really dismissive of the behavior of the men that were engaged government at the time, when she knew them in 1830s, and that they were boorish drunks, a lot of them. So that's quite fascinating in itself of the picture she creates of the people that she came across in the 1830s. It was a bit of a shame that it didn't come out when she wrote it in 1855, because that actually would have scandalized society even more than the Atkinson letters, because it's quite atheistic as well. She's fairly dismissive of people living, as she regarded by then, in the Dark ages of religious belief. So. But then she lived for another 20 years, so it didn't come out. It didn't come out until she died in 1876.

[Matt Elton]

And so, as you say, she went on to live for another two decades. And it's during this time that she became quite an important voice in Britain through her regular leader articles that she had in the Daily News, which might not be a publication that people have heard much about.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Can you talk us through the.

[Matt Elton]

And how important this work that she did was.

[Stuart Hobday]

So she survives this health crisis, as you say. And then, by then, she had been starting writing for the Daily News. It was a newspaper that was set up in opposition to the Times Really? And that totally chimed with Martineau. She regarded the Times as the establishment and she wanted to put across an alternative point of view. And you're absolutely right. All of the articles that she wrote about 1600 leaders over the next 10 years for the Daily News are regarded as being the first retained female journalist. And they were the very model of a modern campaigning journalist. And she should be famous for those alone. But of course, they were all written anonymously. That was the way things were done back then. They didn't put a name to the article in the newspaper, and so that was a real shame. But she did have these contacts in America. So definitely throughout the journalism of the Daily News journalism, fairly regularly, there are updates on what's happening in America that she's obviously getting direct from her contacts in America. And this is the lead up to the American Civil War. And in the late 1850s, we've got the election of Lincoln, which she wrote directly about, and she called it America's Manifest Destiny. She anticipated the Civil War and she anticipated that Lincoln was the leader that was needed. And I mean, what we know now about Lincoln and the compromises he had to make, she could be quite scathing about Lincoln's original positions about slavery, that he was hedging his bets all the time. So again, if you re read what she wrote about Lincoln, that's fascinating in itself in the lead up to the American Civil War. But, yeah, the journalism is fascinating. It's some of the most easily readable. It's most direct writing.

[Matt Elton]

And then in the 1860s, she formed what you've described as formidable partnerships with Florence Nightingale and Josephine Butler. I mean, Florence Nightingale's name will probably be familiar to most listeners.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Josephine Butler may not be. Can you talk about those women and the relationships they had with Harriet?

[Stuart Hobday]

Harriet Martineau was still famous at that time, and certainly Florence Nightingale was like a lot of these characters. They were a bit younger than Martineau. So Florence Nightingale looked up to Harriet. And definitely this coincides with Florence Nightingale coming back from the Crimea War and wanting to write. And Harriet Martineau really encouraged her to do her own writing and helped her. She read early versions and helped her get published. So they did form quite a formidable partnership, publicizing the need for better hospitals and nurse training. And it's often forgotten because I think people remember the sort of heroic deeds of Nightingale in the Crimea. But almost her most important work came afterwards with advocating better hospitals and nurse training and training for doctors as well. And Martineau was very much side by side with her through a period of about five years of publishing and writing newspaper articles and several daily news articles about the work that Nightingale was doing. So it was quite a formidable partnership. And then the campaign with Josephine Butler was a bit later in the 1860s, but that's generally regarded as the first feminist campaign and was to do with prostitution in garrison towns, where the spread of sexual disease was blamed on the women. And Harriet Martineau backed up Josephine Butler in saying this might have something to do with the soldiers because the law was passed, essentially blaming the women, and their campaign was to get that law changed. And they did. It was a successful campaign. Basically, Martineau was in the background writing newspaper articles about Josephine Butler's campaign. She also was one of the first signatories on her petition to Parliament about it. It's a fascinating era and again, one that people sometimes forget. But these were quite important, historically significant campaigns. And it was typical of Martineau that she liked to write to make a real difference. So, you know, she was interested in people, real people. She didn't want to just write theoretical things, and she was always looking out for something that would make a difference.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

What do we know about Harriet's own

[Matt Elton]

sex life, her own sexuality?

[Stuart Hobday]

There has been speculation about her life. She never married. She had a fiance that she was being fixed up with when she was young, but he died suddenly. And there's speculation that he killed himself in a sort of what was described as a mental maelstrom. And she said that was a relief. She didn't want to get married. She didn't want the strictures of marriage. And there have been books that have said she was basically a gay woman and she was attracted to women. But. But I don't think there's any real evidence that she ever acted on this. She certainly had profound relationships with women and became strong companions. She always had a woman companion with her in Ambleside, so the later part of her life was in Ambleside, and she always had a female companion there to live with. So there's definitely speculation, but at the same time, I think she was very much an independent person who didn't want a relationship that would hold her back from doing the work she wanted to do, which was mainly her writing, but in Ambleside as well. It's worth saying that she designed the house, that she had it built on particular, quite scientific method, and then set it up as like, a sustainable farm. So she had a cow and she had pigs, and she actually started writing about that, and they did appear in the Times. She wrote two articles called Our Farm of Two Acres. And they're quite funny articles because she's basically saying to people in London, you could do this if you want, with your. So she's writing about the good life 100 years before the TV series.

[Matt Elton]

I mean, it's extraordinary listening to you talk about her. She's a farmer, a journalist, a campaigner, a sociologist, a writer, a thinker. Are there any aspects of her life that we've not somehow covered already?

[Stuart Hobday]

I think there was an interesting phase as well where she had these interesting interactions with George Eliot, Charlotte Bronte, Elizabeth Gaskell. She definitely was. I think somebody described it as literary grandmother to those three. She wrote a novel called Deerbrook in the late 1830s. We haven't mentioned that, but that's now regarded as quite a groundbreaking novel. So she was also. This world of fiction for women, she had a part in that. And there's another fascinating story, which I'll mention quickly, which was when Charlotte Bronte visited Harriet Martineau in Ambleside and stayed with her for a week. And after it, Charlotte Bronte tried to get her publisher to say, let's get Harriet Martineau to write a work of fiction. And Harriet Martineau wrote this work of fiction that was going to be published by George Smith, and it was essentially a novel of a dystopian future. It was like a science fiction novel. And she wrote it was basically a description of how cities had grown and grown and grown so big and the countryside was laid to waste. And again, fascinating. And George Smith wouldn't publish it. He was horrified by it and he wrote about it like, what the hell is this? And Harriet Martineau was so upset, she burnt it. She burnt the manuscript.

[Matt Elton]

Finally, Stuart, how should we do justice to this extraordinary, somewhat overlooked, fascinatingly complex figure?

[Stuart Hobday]

I'm based in Norwich and I've been doing stuff in Norwich to try and resurrect her memory. So there's now an annual Harriet Martineau lecture, which the first one was done 10 years ago by Ali Smith. That feels like quite a nice memorial to Martineau because it's mainly women writers coming and portraying what they're doing, so that's quite nice. And the next one is coming up with Dr. Rachel Clark. In May, there is a Martineau Society, which I'd urge people to check out. There's a website for that and we have a meeting every year, so we've got a little team of people working to remember her. And I've also founded a new history festival in Norwich, and I have to admit that was quite motivated by the sort of radical history that Norwich has as well, because the theme of the first year was rebels and radicals, and Martin is very much central to that. And planning another Norwich History Festival this July between the 14th and 24th, we're partly celebrating this aspect of Norwich that has got this unusual history of rebels, radical background, quite left field.

[Matt Elton]

Fascinating figure.

[Interviewer (History Extra Podcast)]

Stuart, thank you so much for your time.

[Stuart Hobday]

Cheers.

[Narrator]

That was Stuart Hobday speaking to Matt Elton. For more of Stuart's thoughts on Harriet Martineau, check out his book Encounters with Harriet Martineau, a Victorian Living ahead of her time and you can find out more details about the history festival Stuart mentioned at the end there by heading to norwichhistoryfestival.co.uk.

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