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- [00:01]
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- [00:58]
Podcast Host Isabel King
She's gone down in history as the tragic Nine Days Queen, but what do we really know about Lady Jane Grey? In this episode of the History Extra podcast, Isabel King is joined by historian Nicola Tallis to explore the remarkable life and death of this often misunderstood Tudor monarch.
- [01:18]
Hello Nicola, thanks for joining me today. We're here to talk about the life of a key but often misunderstood Tudor figure, Lady Jane Grey. So to kick us off, when was Lady Jane Grey born and what kind of world was she born into?
- [01:32]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, that's sort of the million dollar question actually. When was she born? Because for such a well known figure, we don't actually know exactly when she was born. There have been various dates purported we now know that the traditional date of birth given for her, which is October 1537, is almost certainly false. And the likelihood is that she was born sometime in either the latter part of 1536 or the first part of 1537. And she was born into a world that was becoming increasingly cultured. She was born at a time when her great uncle Henry VIII was King of England and was awaiting the outcome of the pregnancy of his third wife, Jane Seymour, who in October15 gives birth to the King's longed for male heir, Prince Edward. So it's a really key and pivotal period of history that Jane is born into and a really interesting time actually also for the country because the cogs of the Reformation were really beginning to turn in England at the time of her birth. And this in time would come to have a monumental impact on on Jane's life and her future.
- [02:56]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Now, Bradgate park, her childhood home, has recently been open to the public. What was this Household like was Jane's a happy childhood?
- [03:04]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, again, this is a really tricky question to answer. In some ways, the household at Bradgate certainly would have been lively and thriving. It would have been one of the most sophisticated households in England because Bradgate was actually one of the first stately homes to be built in England that was built for domestic comfort rather than defensive purposes in the same way as the traditional medieval castle. So Jane would have been raised in this household surrounded by all of the trappings of luxury. So I suppose from that perspective it was quite happy. And she also had the company of two younger sisters, Catherine and Mary, who were born in 1540 and 1545. So she wouldn't have lacked for playmates. How happy she was is very difficult to determine because one of the accusations that's laid against Jane's parents is the fact that they were abusive to Jane and that she was forced to endure this really tormented childhood. Now, we don't actually know if that's true. The evidence for this rests on one source and one that we can probably sort of pick a few flaws in. So I think it's fair to say that we have to treat that with a bit of caution. What we can say is that she would have enjoyed a luxurious and very comfortable childhood. But as for happiness, we just don't know.
- [04:33]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Of course, every household shaped the children growing up in it. So if any listeners would like to know more about the lives of ordinary people beyond the Tudor court, the check out our Tudor Life Academy series with Ruth Goodman, available on historyextra.com and the History Extra app. You mentioned her parents there. And of course we don't know the level of potential abuse there may have been towards her, but what we do know is that they would have shaped her upbringing. What were her parents ambitions and how did this affect her upbringing?
- [05:04]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, Jane's parents certainly did have high ambitions for all of their daughters, and particularly Jane, who from a very young age showed a great deal of academic promise. Also, the fact that Jane's parents never had a son really heightened their ambitions and their hopes for their daughters. This was an incredibly cultured world and things were changing where women were concerned. The education of women was considered now to be of the utmost importance, whereas it hadn't necessarily been so in the past. And Jane's parents were really determined to nurture their daughter's scholarly abilities in order to ensure that she was able to make her mark on the world. And we know that Jane's father, Henry Gray in particular was a great academic. He was very very passionate about the education of his daughters, particularly Jane. And I think that her parents really recognized the fact that Jane had royal blood in her veins. They were very conscious of this and they were determined to ensure that she was raised with all of the necessary accoutrements to make a good marriage. So education was something that was really, really important to them in order to do that. And, I mean, who knows, maybe they did harbour ambitions from a young age for Jane to go on and marry Henry VIII's son, Edward VI. That is certainly what happens later on, is that they cherish hopes for this, so. So they certainly have ambitions for Jane to make a name for herself in the world.
- [06:42]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Is there any indication from contemporary accounts of whether Jane herself was ambitious? What was her character like?
- [06:49]
Historian Nicola Tallis
We know that she was definitely academically ambitious. I think that her relationship with education is probably one of the most important relationships of her life, because we know that as soon as she began her earliest lessons, her love of learning really began to flourish. We know that she thoroughly enjoyed reading. We know that she was particularly skilled at languages. So we know that she definitely. She wanted to be seen, she wanted to be noticed. And this becomes apparent when she hit her teenage years and we begin to get better glimpses of her personality. We begin to see her striking up correspondences, we begin to see her being talked about in contemporary accounts. And I think that this is something really unusual at a time when a young girl who is living far away from the court in London, in rural Leicestershire, people are talking about her not only in England, but also abroad in Europe. And this is something that really strikes me about Jane because it suggests that she did really, really want to be noticed. So I think that we can say that she harboured ambitions in an academic respect, in that she knew that she was skilled when it came to her scholarly abilities and she wanted other people to recognise this and notice her as well.
- [08:15]
Podcast Host Isabel King
I love that she wasn't afraid to hide, that she was smart and she wanted people to know that she could be a powerful woman. So I'd just like to talk a little bit more about how Jane came to the Tudor court. When did she first enter its orbit and how did this environment shape her?
- [08:31]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Further, it seems possible that Jane would have visited the court during the reign of her great uncle, Henry viii. We don't actually have any official records of that, but we know certainly that she would have visited the court of her cousin, Edward VI, when he became king in 1547. She's not a courtier as such, so we have to Remember that she's a very similar age to young Edward vi, probably just a few months older or no more than a year, certainly. But when Edward VI became King, Jane became the ward of his uncle, Thomas Seymour. And that definitely brings her closer to the world at court, because suddenly Jane is catapulted from living this very quiet country life at Bradgate park to living at Seymour Place in London. And although she wouldn't have attended the court necessarily on a regular basis, she would certainly have been more au fait with people around the court. She would have heard more news of the King, she would have heard more news of the goings on, the comings and goings. So I think that this is kind of quite a turning point in her life, because suddenly her importance catapults, and we can see that by the way, in which the King's uncle is suddenly taking an interest in her and acquiring her wardship. But also it does suddenly transport her from this life of quiet, dignified, country existence to someone who is very, very close to the heart of events at court.
- [10:05]
Podcast Host Isabel King
And why was she brought into the household of Thomas Seymour?
- [10:08]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, as soon as Edward VI became King, the King is nine years old, he's unmarried at this time, and the government of the country is headed by a Regency council, at the head of which is Edward's uncle, Edward Seymour, brother of Thomas Seymour. Thomas needs a project of his own. I suppose you could say he has ambitions and he recognized Jane's status. He recognised that she was the King's cousin. He was acutely conscious of her royal blood in the same way that her parents were. And he spied an opportunity in Jane. He thought that he could engineer a marital arrangement between Jane and Edward vi. And so it's for this reason that he is able to acquire Jane's wardship from her parents. So he offers them a huge amount of money for this because he recognized that they were perpetually in debt. They lived this very luxurious lifestyle spoken about at Bradgate. They enjoyed gambling, they were always short of money. So this was very, very tempting to the Greys. And they in turn recognised Thomas Seymour's position as the King's uncle. Surely there could be nobody better placed than he to arrange a marriage between the King and their daughter. So it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, or so it seemed to be, anyway. And Thomas really sees Jane as, I suppose, his pawn in a far bigger game to help him win the King's favour and ultimately to gain control of the young King as well.
- [11:55]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Do we know if Jane herself knew that she was a pawn in this game. Did she have any agency at this time or as a child? Was it just that these things happened to her and she had no choice?
- [12:04]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Yeah. I mean, we don't know exactly what she felt about the idea of being Thomas Seymour's ward. We do know that she seems to have been quite fond of him. One of her surviving letters is written to Thomas Seymour and she talks about him as being a kind father towards her. So clearly there is some kind of warmth of feeling in terms of the relationship there. But whether Jane actually recognised what Seymour's ambitions were in regards to her, we don't know. It's possible that she may have had some idea of what was afoot, but, no, at this time, she was largely occupied with continuing with her lessons, developing on her academic skills in Seymour's household. So probably all other matters may not have been of much interest to her at this time.
- [12:55]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Now, Thomas was not the only person in this household who would have had influence over Jane, because in 1547, he married Catherine Parr, Henry VIII's final wife and widow. What was the relationship between Catherine and Jane like and how did this shape her?
- [13:11]
Historian Nicola Tallis
We don't actually know how much time Jane and Catherine came to spend with one, but I think that this relationship has probably been very much underestimated. I think it was probably one of the key relationships of Jane's life, because certainly in Catherine there was plenty for Jane to admire. Catherine, like Jane, was an adherent of the reformed faith that we would later term Protestantism. And I think that this would have had a huge impact on shaping Jane and her religious beliefs. She was an authoress of several books which Jane would have known about as well. And I think that none of this would have been lost on Jane. I think that this was a real moment in Jane's life when she was given the opportunity to define herself in terms of her religious beliefs, in terms of her academic shaping, I think Catherine would have been a hugely positive influence on her. And we do know that Jane accompanied Catherine and Thomas Seymour when they left London in the summer 1548 and travelled to Soothey Castle in Gloucestershire, where they were going to await the outcome of Catherine's first pregnancy. And I think at this time, Jane would have had some very precious and valuable time to spend with Catherine. And course, we can only speculate on exactly what they would have spoken about and what would have happened during this time, but I can quite easily imagine them sat perusing and discussing books with one another and, you know, perhaps looking at the translation of the Bible. So I think that this was probably one of the happiest summers of Jane's childhood, and I think that it was certainly monumental in terms of shaping who she would go on to become.
- [15:06]
Podcast Host Isabel King
It definitely provides quite a striking image, doesn't it, the imagining them there together. So you mentioned there a lot about Jane's faith. How central was Protestantism to her identity and how did her beliefs compare to those of Edward vi?
- [15:23]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Jane's religious beliefs, I think, are very much at the core of her whole identity. And we have to remember that she was raised as a Protestant her whole life, and she was surrounded by men and women, actually, who held similar beliefs. And this was really fertile ground for a young and impressionable girl. And I think that we can really trace Jane's relationship with her faith through her letters, through the books that we know that she read. We know that this really was a very core and integral part of her. And I don't think you can really look at Jane without also looking at her religious faith. It clearly was something that ultimately, in the end, she was prepared to die for. And I think that that says a great deal about her strength of character and also about the strength of her. Her belief. And I suppose in many ways she was definitely on a par with, with Edward VI in terms of her religious fervor, if not even stronger. And I think that, again, we can only speculate, but Edward, he does spend the entirety of his reign imposing Protestantism on England. And I think that had Jane been given the opportunity, we would have seen her go very much the same way. But I think that ultimately, had they ended up being married, it would have been a match made in heaven in many ways, because I think that we do see their faith really matching one another. It was something that was very, very vehemently instilled in both of these youngsters, if not more so with Jane, as I say. But definitely, I think it is something that really serves to bind these two youngsters together.
- [17:12]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Edward spent majority of his reign imposing Protestantism across England. And I'm sure most people listening to this will be aware that throughout the Tudor period, religion was extremely important, especially following Henry VIII's reformation. And it also played a major role in the succession after Edward. Which leads me onto my next question, which is, what was the device for the succession and how did it affect those in line for the throne?
- [17:38]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, this is, I think, one of the most important and extraordinary documents in English history. It is a will, to all intents and purposes, that was drawn up in Edward VI's own hand. And in this will, he attempted to overturn the provisions for the succession that had been put in place by his father, Henry viii, with Edward's device. Religion is really at the heart of it, because we talked about the fact that Edward was an ardent Protestant. He didn't want his Catholic half sister, Mary, to be given the opportunity to reverse all of his good work in the cause of religion. However, Edward realised that he couldn't exclude one half sister without also excluding the other. And so he bars both Mary and his younger half sister, Elizabeth, from the succession by reason of their illegitimacy, which had been enforced by law during the reign of their father, Henry viii. And instead we see Jane Grey, Edward's Protestant cousin, who had been third in line to the throne by the terms of Henry VIII's will, catapulted to first in line to the throne. So this is a huge, huge turnaround and nobody really saw it coming, least of all Lady Jane Grey. And it is completely illegal because he writes this will, this device for the succession, and is unable to pass it through Parliament, which would have made it legal, because unfortunately, it becomes clear that he is not going to live long enough to be able to do that.
- [19:22]
Podcast Host Isabel King
So you said there that Jane was third in line for the throne and then was catapulted to first in line. In your opinion, based on the political context at the time, do you think she was legitimately the strongest contender for Edward's throne?
- [19:38]
Historian Nicola Tallis
No, she wasn't legitimately the strongest at all because the divorce was completely illegal. The succession should have passed to Mary and then Elizabeth and then Jane if neither of them produced children of their own. So, no, Jane's claim to the throne was nowhere near as strong as Mary and Elizabeth, and everybody in England knew it.
- [20:05]
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- [20:39]
Historian Nicola Tallis
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- [21:30]
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- [22:56]
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- [23:25]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Now, in the same year as the device for the succession, Jane married Guildford Dudley. What were the political motivations behind this marriage?
- [23:34]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Wow. There were certainly plenty from the Dudley family's perspective, because at the time of this marriage, John Dudley, the Duke of northumberland, was Edward VI's chief advisor. He was the one who was really in charge of everything in England and running the country. And when Edward made his device, he realised that the support of his counsel, chief among them, John Dudley, was going to be essential in order to see the terms of the device carried through. And John Dudley was more than willing to go along with this, but he needed some kind of motivation as well. And the way to ensure his compliance in this plan, if you like, was to ensure that there was an advantageous marriage on the table. And that marriage materialised in the form of his fourth son, Guildford Dudley. I mean, what could be more appealing to him than marriage for his son with the future Queen of England? So it's a great deal where John Dudley is concerned and the Dudley family are thrilled about the idea of this marriage. Jane, not so much. However, her family, her supporters, realised that if she were to have a smooth succession, which everybody, you know, who was adhering to Edward's device hoped would be the case, then John Dudley's support was going to be essential and this was the price that would have to be paid.
- [25:09]
Podcast Host Isabel King
So we have discussed the importance of the device for the succession and its implications. This then came to fruition when Edward died at the age of 15. Do we know how Jane reacted to Edward's death and the fact that she would now be Queen?
- [25:24]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, we do. We know that she was taken to Sion park on the outskirts of London, which was John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland's townhouse at that time. And it was here, traditionally in the long gallery, that she was told that Edward VI had died and that she was now Queen of England. And she was absolutely distraught. She broke down in hysterical tears, sobbing for the loss of the cousin whom she had loved, but also for the hand that fate had dealt her, because she had no wish or desire to be Queen whatsoever. But this was an impossible situation for Jane because she was, I suppose, implored is a gentle way of putting it. She was pressurised really, into accepting the throne by her father in law, by members of Edward VI's former council who had gathered at Sion and told that this was her duty. So very, very reluctantly, Jane accepted that which she couldn't change, and she was now Queen of England.
- [26:37]
Podcast Host Isabel King
I just wonder there. You said that she reluctantly accepted. If she had gone with her own wishes and refused and been in a position to be able to do that, who would the throne have gone to in that instance?
- [26:49]
Historian Nicola Tallis
I think in that instance there would have been no option but to adhere to the terms of Henry VIII's will. And for Mary to have become queen, I can't see any other way around it, unless there had been a way to try and manipulate Elizabeth into the firing line or the line succession as front runner instead. But I think that Elizabeth would have had a similar reaction to Jane, actually. So I think Mary would have been the only viable alternative.
- [27:18]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Of course, that didn't happen. But after so much debate leading up to Edward's death, how was Jane's succession received initially by those outside of the Council?
- [27:29]
Historian Nicola Tallis
It was greeted with great hostility. Jane was publicly proclaimed Queen at the Tower of London on 10 July, four days after Edward VI. And the reception that came with the announcement was chilly to say the least. And when I think about it now, I don't think that that's a great surprise because we've spoken about the fact that Jane was never raised as any kind of figurehead. She wasn't ever raised as an heir to the throne. She was just this great niece of Henry viii who had been living in the countryside. She had none of the popularity of Henry VIII's daughters, Mary and Elizabeth. And there were people alive in 1553 who still remembered Henry VIII's separation from Catherine of Aragon and the way in which Mary had been treated at that time. And nobody wanted to see Mary deprived of her birthright again. So I think the idea of this girl, who nobody had heard of, suddenly usurping her place to all effects, is met with a huge amount of antipathy. And I think that that's actually completely understandable.
- [28:45]
Podcast Host Isabel King
How did this antipathy present itself? Were there protests? Were there riots in the street? What kind of things happening? Paint a picture for us.
- [28:54]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Okay, well, really, I think one of the most graphic, I suppose, examples that we see is the following day after the announcement of Jane's accession, there is a young man called Gilbert Pott who's put in the pillory for uttering seditious words against Queen Jane. And, I mean, that's really probably the most graphic example we have of someone who is protesting. But we do see these Spanish ambassadors, who were Mary's great supporters, writing in their reports about how nobody wanted Jane to be queen, that Lady Mary was very greatly loved throughout the realm, and that there were a lot of utterings and whisperings in London against her. And I mean, in some ways, I suppose that's to be expected because the Spanish ambassadors are Mary's supporters. They're never gonna say anything particularly nice about Jane. But I think actually in this instance it's quite accurate and it does sort of portray the mutterings and the whisperings that were taking place in the streets of London at this time as news began to spread that Jane had become Queen. But yes, certainly Gilbert Pott is one of the few that we know who was punished for uttering his words louder than he should.
- [30:09]
Podcast Host Isabel King
I just want to take a moment to zoom out a little bit and talk about how historians have interpreted the moment of Jane's accession to the throne. Some historians argue that she was never officially a queen and she should not be included in our list of monarchs. Do you agree with this and why or why not?
- [30:29]
Historian Nicola Tallis
I don't agree with it, but I can see why people think that because we talked about the fact that Edward VI's device was illegal. So technically, if you're taking that line of thought, then no, Jane should never have become Queen in the first place. And no, we shouldn't classify her as a queen. However, what I would argue is that she was accepted as Queen by Edward VI council. And for me, that is why I would argue that actually the governing body of the country had approved of and accepted Jane's queenship. And so therefore we should classify her as a queen. And I think that it's very clear as well that Jane herself viewed herself as a queen, albeit one who was unwilling, because we do see in documents from this time that she very clearly signs her name as Jane McQueen. So clearly she herself, whatever misgivings she may have had about the role that fate had thrown her way and about the legality of Edward's device, is clear that that is the way in which she viewed herself, that she had accepted herself as a Queen. So I think, how can we really argue with that either?
- [31:44]
Podcast Host Isabel King
And of course she's gone down in history as the Nine Days Queen. Was there suggestion with her signing her name as the Queen and things like that, that she definitely did not foresee her reign being so short?
- [31:59]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Yeah, I think that's very much the case because I think that there is this myth, if you like, that from the moment Jane became Queen, her reign was doomed to failure. And as you say, we do know her as the Nine Day Queen. But actually this couldn't be further from the truth because to begin with, the odds did seem to be very much stacked in Jane's favor to begin with. Even Mary's supporters were urging her to flee abroad for her safety because they were convinced that Jane's reign was going to be secure. So I think that it's very interesting the way that we view things afterwards, with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how the story. But I think that Jane probably felt maybe as though those around her had all of the tools that were needed in order to make her reign secure. And unfortunately it doesn't transpire in that way. There are mistakes made and it just goes to show that her grip on power, the grip of the council on power, was far more fragile than any of them had.
- [33:12]
Podcast Host Isabel King
So you say there that it wasn't inevitable. But what were the key turning points that led to her swift downfall?
- [33:19]
Historian Nicola Tallis
For starters, Mary herself. I don't think anybody had banked on Mary's courage. The Duke of Northumberland, John Dudley, expected Mary to just roll over and accept that Jane was going to be queen. And I suppose in many respects that would have been the easiest thing for her to do. But we spoke about the fact that Mary had been deprived of her birthright once before, and I think it's full credit to her that she was determined to make sure that that didn't happen again. So she shows a huge amount of courage in standing up and trying to fight for the throne. And I think that many people made a huge error in terms of underestimating Mary's popularity, chief among them, John Dudley. And Mary really played her hand very well from the start because she fled into East Anglia, where she was very, very popular and where she was also a very wealthy landowner. And from there she was able to really rally her troops and build up a really strong network of support. And that really, really worked in her favour, because day by day, more and more men were flocking to Mary's banner at Framlingham Castle and eventually, so says one of the sources, to the tune of 20,000 men. So clearly Mary had the ability to raise and rally an army. So that was one thing. But I think that also there was a big mistake made on Jane's part or on the parts of those around her, and that was that she allowed her father in law, John Dudley, to leave London in order to apprehend Mary. Because this proved to be a mistake on two fronts, actually, because first of all, John Dudley was not popular in East Anglia. So the further into that part of the country he marched, more and more men began to desert from him. And to flock to Mary instead. And also back in London, with no key, strong figurehead to really bind James supporters together, her authority very, very quickly fell apart, because, unfortunately, although she did her best to try and assert her authority, there were very few men among the council who had any respect for that. And her father, Henry Grey, who'd been left normally in charge, was very weak and very few had any kind of respect for him either. And so, unfortunately, support for Jane begins to melt away very, very rapidly.
- [35:56]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Now, how do we get from this point where we've got supporters on both sides, but obviously many more on Mary's fighting it out for the succession and Jane rapidly losing her authority, how do we get from that point to ultimately Mary ordering Jane's execution?
- [36:14]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Well, it was by no means a done deal. That's the first important thing to say, because ultimately, Mary succeeds to the throne on the 19th of July, and Jane is deposed and is incarcerated in prison quarters in the Tower of London, as is her husband, Guildford Dudley. And to begin with, Mary made it very, very clear that she intended to save both of their lives. She did recognize, however, that some form of justice needed to be seen to be done. So both Jane and her husband were made to stand trial in November 1553, and they were both found guilty of treason and condemned. And even at that point, they both returned to imprisonment in the Tower. So it was by no means a done deal that they were going to die. It was a formality, a show trial, if you like. But unfortunately for Jane, masses spiral out of her control, because at the beginning of 1554, a rebellion begins in Kent under the auspices of Thomas Wyatt. And it is a rebellion which aims to protest against Mary's intended Spanish marriage to Philip of Spain and to topple Mary in the process and replace her with her half sister, Elizabeth. So what has any of this got to do with Jane? Absolutely nothing at all. However, there is one key, huge point, and that is that Jane's father, Henry Grey, is one of the key conspirators in this plot. We don't know exactly why, apart from sheer stupidity on his side, but unfortunately, his involvement seals Jane's fate. The Wyatt rebellion is crushed and with that, there are cries for James Blood. And Mary ultimately recognized that whilst Jane was alive, she was always going to provide a figurehead for dissenters against her rule. And so, although Jane had been in no way, shape or form involved in the plot, Mary did reluctantly give orders for her execution. And I think that that's probably one of the greatest tragedies of Jane's life is that her fate was decided by her father's negative and poor judgment.
- [38:39]
Podcast Host Isabel King
That is extremely sad, isn't it? I mean, circumstances were already out of her control, but the fact that it was definitely not a done deal and then she is essentially collateral damage and the victim of somebody else's circumstances is really sad.
- [38:55]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Yeah.
- [38:56]
Podcast Host Isabel King
So when did Jane die?
- [38:58]
Historian Nicola Tallis
On 12th February, 1554, Jane was executed inside the confines of the Tower of London. So Jane had been granted the privilege of what you would call a private execution, although, again, there are probably hundreds of people in attendance there on that day. And she made a very, very brave and courageous end, particularly I think, given that she had had to watch her husband, Guildford, being led out of the Tower for his execution on Tower Hill first. So she had seen him leave and then minutes later, she saw the cart carrying his broken body returned to the Tower. And to me, I think that that's. It's utterly extraordinary that she managed to put one foot in front of the other and managed to find a way to blank this from her mind and walk the short distance from her rooms to the scaffold which had been erected close to the White Tower in the Tower of London. And she stood on the scaffold and she made a very short speech where she began. Good people, I am come hither to die, and by a law I am condemned to the same. So it's extraordinary to me the courage that she was able to show at this moment, when she was probably no more than 17 years old. And as we said, her fate was decided through the stupid actions of others. And, you know, the fact that shortly before her death, Mary had attempted to convince Jane to convert to Catholicism in an attempt to save her soul, and she had refused to do that, knowing that she was going to die. I think it's a huge testament to her strength of character and who she was as a person. The fact that she was able to go out and carry herself so bravely. I think that it's quite incredible and it tells us a lot about who she was and how she wanted to be remembered.
- [41:04]
Podcast Host Isabel King
What you said there, she died as a Protestant martyr. How was her death received by Protestants at home and abroad?
- [41:13]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Sadly, in some ways, actually, Jane and her death were really little more than a footnote in ambassadors reports. And it was only really those who knew her who really went to great efforts to highlight the fact that she had died as a young woman who was so steadfast in her religious beliefs that she was prepared to die for it. And it was really thanks to them that we begin to see the shaping of the narrative that we have today as Jane, who was a tragic victim of the actions of others, who was a Protestant martyr. And I think really, we have this idea of Jane as being a Protestant martyr partly as a result of her own words as well, which I think she was also eager to see circulated after her death. So I think that tells us something about her and the fact that she did want to create a legacy, she did want to be remembered for her religious zeal, and, I mean, in that respect, at least, she succeeded, because that is how we do remember her today.
- [42:22]
Podcast Host Isabel King
How do you think historians today assess her beliefs and her political significance and her impact on the Tudor period?
- [42:31]
Historian Nicola Tallis
I think people are now starting to recognise her importance and her impact in a greater capacity than perhaps has been the case in the past, which is very, very welcome and very much needed. And I think it's quite interesting in many respects, because Jane is perhaps one of the better known characters of the Tudor period, but I would also argue one of the most misunderstood. And often people tend to think of her through an emotional lens. They tend to think of her as this very sad young woman who is a real victim, who died young, who was treated badly by her parents. And we can't escape from the facts and the circumstances surrounding Jane's death. But what we can do, I think, is to really celebrate the other sides of her personality and her queenship that we know more about. So, you know, her religious zeal, her intelligence, her determination to make the best of a bad situation. And I think that there are a lot of historians in the modern era who are really trying to wave the flag for that part of Jane's life and that side of her story and bring that to the fore more. Because leading on from this in the future, when people hear the name of Lady Jane Grey, I would really love for the automatic reaction not to be, oh, that's so sad, poor girl. I would love for it to be, wow, she was superhero of her time and she really had a voice and she wasn't afraid to speak her truth. So I think that we are starting to move a bit further in that direction and that is very much the way that I would love to see Jane's story continue absolutely, as it should
- [44:25]
Podcast Host Isabel King
be, making sure people are aware of her agency and that she doesn't just become a victim of the timeline, I suppose, and remembering her as a person with agency and power. What does this reveal about the intersection of gender, power and religion in the mid 16th century.
- [44:44]
Historian Nicola Tallis
I think in terms of Jane's gender, many of her contemporaries viewed this as a weakness and thought that that was a way in which they could manipulate her. And I think particularly in the case of her father in law, John Dudley, it shows how much he underestimated her because I think he was very typically someone who thought, young girl, I can manipulate her into whichever way I choose. And actually the fact that Jane really stood her ground and made her voice heard in this male dominated world in which she was expected to be subservient to men, she was expected to do what she was told by those who were deemed to be superior to her. I think that that shows us a great deal about her determination not to be manipulated and her determination not to be a pawn. So why should we kind of remember her in that way when that was not how she allowed herself to be treated? But I think it's very interesting and I think it gave her male contemporaries a real shock because they weren't expecting that kind of behavior from a teenage girl living in the 16th century. So Jane was breaking norms even within her own lifetime. And that's something that perhaps may not necessarily have been commended at the time, but that I think really makes her stand out as being someone who was truly, truly extraordinary and shows us she was somebody who was not afraid to break the norm and especially where her gender was concerned.
- [46:24]
Podcast Host Isabel King
And I have one last question for you which is, is pure speculation, but I feel like I have to ask, and that is, how do you think Jane's story might have unfolded differently if Edward had lived longer, if Mary hadn't had as much support, if her father hadn't been involved in Wyatt's rebellion, if any or all of those things hadn't happened, how do you think her story may have happened differently?
- [46:48]
Historian Nicola Tallis
It's so tantalizing, isn't it? And I mean, I quite enjoy speculating on these kinds of things. Cause we don't know, so we can have a bit of fun with it in some. I think that if Edward had lived longer, I don't think she would have married Edward. I think we would have seen her as one of the great scholars of the Tudor period in the way that somebody like Elizabeth or somebody like Lord Burleigh's wife Mildred goes on to be later on. So I think we would have seen that from her, but perhaps we wouldn't actually have remembered her as anything more than a footnote. Perhaps, perhaps she wouldn't have been anything more remarkable than that, I think, had she been given the opportunity to be queen for longer, then we would have seen some quite extraordinary things from her. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that we may have seen her ending up burning Catholics in the same way that we later see Mary burning Protestants. But I think that what she would have done would have been somebody who would have given a really powerful voice to other young women living in her time. And I think that it would have been really, really wonderful to have had the opportunity to hear and see more of her voice. And we can only speculate on that. I think had Wyatt's rebellion not happened later on, we would have seen Jane either live out the rest of her days in imprisonment in the Tower or perhaps eventually released to live quietly. But ultimately, sadly, I think that from the moment that she was deposed, her fate was sealed, whether it was through Wyatt's rebellion or something else later on. And I think that really shows that royal blood could be a hindrance.
- [48:41]
Podcast Host Isabel King
Well, it's been lovely to look back on Lady Jane Grey's life and really dig deeper into her character with you, Nicola. Thank you so much for joining me today.
- [48:49]
Historian Nicola Tallis
Oh, thank you so much, Isabel. It's been won.
- [48:53]
Podcast Host Isabel King
That was Nicola Tallis speaking to Isabel King. Nicola is a historian and author of multiple books, including Crown of Blood, the Deadly Inheritance of Lady Jane Grey.
- [49:17]
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- [49:41]
Historian Nicola Tallis
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- [49:46]
Podcast Host Isabel King
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