Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:01]
Commercial Narrator
Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in Traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway, wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Best book direct and save@bestwestern.com this episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips? That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online@statefarm.com like a good neighbor, State Farm
- [00:56]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
is there Morning decisions How about a
- [00:59]
Commercial Narrator
Creamy Mocha Frappuccino drink?
- [01:01]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Or sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe?
- [01:04]
Commercial Narrator
Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
- [01:14]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Springfest means more sun, more fun and more free at Lowes. Keep your yard in line with an additional free EGO 56 volt battery when you buy a select Ego mower trimmer or blower. Plus, keep landscaping fresh with stay green 1 cubic foot garden soil 5 bags for $10. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 4. A wall supplies last selection varies by location. Soil offered excludes Alaska and Hawaii.
- [01:46]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Misses beaton is a name synonymous with 19th century domesticity, thanks largely to her best selling book of household management. But who was the real woman behind the brand? In this episode of the History Extra podcast, I spoke to author, historian and biographer Catherine Hughes to uncover the life of Isabella Beaton, an industrious editorial innovator whose influence is still felt today far beyond her own lifetime. It's a real pleasure to have you here today to talk all about the life of Mrs. Beaton. First, I've got to ask you, why should we know about her?
- [02:25]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, I think there's something extraordinary about the fact that virtually everybody in Britain, Canada and around the sort of former Commonwealth has heard of the name. We all know Mrs. Beaton. We hear the name all the time. Oh, I'm no Mrs. Beaton. Or, you know, my mum was a real Mrs. Beaton. We don't know any more than that, so it's really strange. I was very interested in how you had this name that everybody recognized and in fact nobody knew anything about her. And of course, she's famous for a certain sort of kind of domesticity, cooking in particular, the idea that she knew absolutely everything about either how to have a dinner party for 24 people or how just to put together a nice picnic lunch. And that she also had all these tips about, you know, what order she used your saucepans in, or even expanding into things like in her original format, what to pay your second footman. That was a very popular thing. So she's this amazing sort of compendium of domestic knowledge, sort of the first domestic goddess, if you like. But we know so little about her. That's what really interested me.
- [03:32]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
So hopefully we are going to right that wrong today. So first, I've got to ask you, I want to go back to her earliest life. Could you tell us about her family life, her background?
- [03:42]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Okay, so she was born in 1836, so just a matter of months before Queen Victoria came to the throne. So technically, she's not a Victorian, but she sort of is. She corresponds with the beginning of the Victorian era. Her father ran a cotton warehouse in the city of London, and her mother was the offspring of people from quite a humble stock, agricultural stock, in Chichester. So this is not a grand family at all. Her father made a reasonable living, but unfortunately he died when she was 4, which, I mean, in terms of, like, early Victorian period, that's a disaster that can sort of send you straight into poverty, especially because by this time she already had three younger siblings. So her mother was left with this kind of appalling situation and sent little Isabella to live in the north, in Cumbria with her grandfather, who was a very elderly clergyman. And she was eventually brought back to London once her mother remarried. So Isabella's mother married a man called Henry Dorling, and we know that name again from the sort of publishing company, Dorling and Kindersley. He also. He was a widower. He had four children, so that's immediately a family of eight. And then together, Mr. And the new Mrs. Dorling go on and have 13 more. So Isabella is one of 21 children, which is extraordinary. I've got this theory that it might explain why when you look at her recipes in her book, the numbers are so huge. So she's often kind of suggesting what you might have for dinner if you've got 18 people round for dinner, and most of us don't have that. But she was really used to those very big numbers from the start. I think it's also worth saying that she also knew the importance of being thrifty because you've got 21 little mouths, you've got to know how to use your leftovers, basically. So it's a kind of precarious start in life.
- [05:36]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
So her family, her upbringing, all gave her maybe the training behind this domestic management.
- [05:42]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, yes, but at the same time it was quite rackety. So her stepfather, Henry Dorling, ran the racecourse in Epsom where they have the Derby each year. They went to live in Epsom, but because there were so many children, 21 children, Isabella, who was the oldest girl of this huge flock, was expected to take some of the younger children and go and live in the grandstand when it wasn't being used, camp out there, literally on camp beds and sort of make snacks as best she could. It was seen as just a very good way of kind of what you would do with all these extra children. So again, that's quite precarious. That's not the sort of domestic idea that we're used to thinking about with Isabella Beaton. There's something a little bit sort of ramshackled and make it up as you go along. And I think that was very interesting as well. She's not growing up in a kind of very well ordered household. It's all a little bit kind of slapdash.
- [06:37]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Would you say that this upbringing was typical for somebody of her place in society?
- [06:43]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
No, I don't think most of us or most sort of girls from sort of commercial middle classes grew up in a racecourse in a grand. No, it's completely unique and I think it's so interesting and it possibly explains a lot of how she developed later on where she was a very practical person. She was also a person, and we'll talk about this, not actually very interested in domesticity. Ironically, she learned her skills really kind of troubleshooting, just making sure that all these little siblings that she was responsible for went to bed kind of reasonably well fed. So again, it's not really that very kind of luxurious kind of way of living that we might have expected. I have to say that when she's in her teens, she and her sisters are sent to school in Germany, boarding school in Germany for a couple of years in Heidelberg. Beautiful, beautiful university city. But what's so interesting is that in Germany it was quite normal for middle class girls to learn how to bake. And Isabella learns German cookery out there. So it's a sort of finishing school, I suppose, but not that fancy. And it's very much sort of focused on German pastry goods. So she gets very good at bakery before she then comes back at 19 to start her adult life.
- [08:05]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
And around the sort of mid-1850s, she begins a relationship, doesn't she, with somebody that would later become her husband.
- [08:12]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
That's right. So in the street in the city of London, Milk street, very near St. Paul's where she had been born and where she grew up for a while, where her father had had this cotton warehouse, there's a pub called the Dolphin Pub, and that is run by a family called the Beatons. And she and Sam Beaton, who's a couple of years older than her, have known each other forever. The families are friends. And indeed, when she goes out to Heidelberg to school, some of the Beaton sisters go as well. So this is very much starting a relationship with the boy next door, which is how it tended to work, I have to say, in the 1850s. They get sort of engaged when she's 18 and he's a little bit older. Her family are furious because they don't think Sam is really very suitable. He's a bit raffish. He works in the City of London as a paper merchant and a publisher. And he's a little bit of a wide boy. He's made quite a bit of money, but there's always a feeling that he could lose it at any point. So by and large, it's not. And Henry Dorling often says that Sam Beason should not be allowed to write to Isabella. He's not that keen about it at all. So this is a question of sort of young love kind of winning through.
- [09:29]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Do we get an insight into their relationship in any way at all?
- [09:32]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, I've seen the love letters that they exchanged over this period of about 18 months. And they're. They're very sweet. They are all the things you might write in text form now if you were 18, I think. So there's a lot of excitement about the marriage, a lot of. In which she is a lot more interested than he is. So she's forever saying, what should the bridesmaids wear? What would your sisters like to. You know. And Sam always forgets to answer that. He's not really interested in wedding business. There's a lot of that. There's also because it's a sort of what we might call an epistolary relationship at this point. They're writing to each other. They only see each other out once every three weeks. There's a lot of scope for sort of tiffs and misunderstandings in her letters. There's often lines like, I don't think you should have smiled at Me when we said goodbye, or, you know, not sure that you really like me. So it's very young and it's very modern in a way, and you can tell a lot about their personalities because her letters are nicely written and dated. His never are. So he often just puts things like Tuesday at the top or not even that at all. So you begin to get a sense of this, a sensible, slightly anxious girl wanting to marry this older boy who's kind of a little bit of a lad, but is sort of might be all right as a husband. Fingers crossed.
- [10:51]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
It's something you almost feel could translate across the centuries.
- [10:55]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
It's so could. It's so could, yeah.
- [10:57]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Now, how did this marriage affect Isabella's future, her prospects? What path did it take her on?
- [11:04]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, Sam, by this point, had started the first mass market women's magazine in Britain. It was called the English Women's Domestic Magazine. Now, there'd been lots of posh, expensive magazines before for upper class women, very concerned with fashion and society gossip and that kind of thing. This is really the first magazine for middle class women. We sort of recognize a lot of the kind of slots today. There's a bit of fiction, there's something called, which Sam writes, called Cupid's Love Bag. He's an agony uncle, and readers write into him and say things like, you know, my young man hasn't written to me for three weeks. Should I be bothered to. Which he offered right back, things like, yes, he's not interested in you find another young man. Or people write in and say, you know, I hate my elder sister, I want to actually kill her. And he'll write back and say, well, don't actually kill her because that's against the law, but try and get on. So it's a very lively kind of publication, and what they also have is cookery. And it's okay at the start, but what happens is that one day the cookery editor goes awol, really, with a crate of sherry or something. Nobody ever sees her again. And so Sam suggests to his bride, Isabella, you could do that. I mean, it doesn't matter that you've never actually cooked much apart from German bread. You could do that. And I have to say, before I was an academic, before I was a university teacher, I worked on glossy magazines for a while. And I know exactly what that's like, where the cookery editor goes missing and somebody comes in and goes, you've got some books there, you can cobble it together. And that's exactly what Isabella did. So she started to write recipes which she took from other cookbooks. And we know she wasn't very good because the very first recipe she wrote was for Victoria's Sponge and she forgot that it needed eggs, so she left them out. And in the intervening month, readers wrote in, slightly puzzled, saying, you know, my Victoria's Sponge didn't come out very well. They had to write a sort of erratum and say, I'm sorry, we should have said that. Eggs go in victorious Sponge. So, you know, she doesn't start in a blaze of glory. It's very cobbled together. All recipes are lifted from older cookery books and it's these recipes that then go into the Beaton's Book of Household Management because the recipes become very popular. And Sam, who's got a very good business mind, thinks, I think we should sort of spin this off into, into another project. And he suggests writing something called Beaton's Book of Household Management. So it's not Mrs. Beaton's book, it's Beaton's Book of Household Management. It's branded by his publishing company. He's already done things like Beaton's Book of History, Beaton's Book of Pets, and it's what we a part work. So it comes out every month in little kind of pamphlets and then you collect it over 24 months and it comes together and it's a sort of encyclopedia. And that is what Isabella starts writing. And that is the Book of Household Management that we sort of know today. And it was finally published in book form in 1861 where she was still only. I have to get this right. I think she's still only 22 when it comes out. This is a very, very young woman, I mean, maybe 24. And what I think is very interesting is that she adopts this voice in her cookery recipes and in the book, which is very authoritative. So if you read it, you think, oh, this is a 50 year old woman who is used to kind of cooking and has probably got a team of maidservants. So she's ventriloquizing a voice that is much more authoritative than the one that she actually has. And I think that's why when I was writing my biography of her a long time ago now, and they'd say, oh, was she a bit of an old dragon? And I'd say, well, no, she wrote the book when she was 24. She was actually, you know, spoiler alert. She was dead by the time she was 28. And people were very, very shocked because everybody has this idea that she is some sort of doughty housekeeper or a very kind of experienced woman looking after a substantial household. And she's not at all.
- [15:11]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
So we've got a real dichotomy here between who she was and how she presented herself. Why do you think she chose to take on that Persona?
- [15:19]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
I think she's a bright woman. As I say, she becomes a very accomplished journalist. I think she knows that that is what is wanted. It is true that if you look at all the cookbooks and recipe books from the past that she will have been reading, they are always written by senior chefs in private households, royal chefs, or people who can say, I've worked in a gentleman's household for 30 years and this is the kind of fruit of my wisdom. So a lot of that sort of throat clearing goes on in the introduction. And I think she guessed quite rightly that that is the sort of Persona you need to adopt. And so without actually saying anything, without actually passing herself off as somebody she wasn't, she managed to let people think that she was, which I think is clever.
- [16:05]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
That's very clever.
- [16:09]
Commercial Narrator
Whenever I switch my closet from my bulkier winter wardrobe to my spring and summer set of clothes, I like to take that as a moment to kind of reset. And this is a great time to pare my closet down to the essentials. But that means that each of those pieces have to live up to the wear. And that's where Quince comes in, because they make beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% linen, organic cotton and super soft denim with styles starting around $50. Their spring pieces are lightweight, breathable and effortless. And that same focus on materials carries over into their accessories. I just got a beautiful leather bag made from 100% woven Italian leather that looks like a splurge, but luckily did not feel like one. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for the quality and not brand markup. So refresh your spring wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comhistoryextra for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to quinchiextra for free shipping and 365 day returns.quince.com starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times. Your to do list may feel endless with new tasks, and lists can easily begin to overrun your life. So finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything as a built in business partner can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark, Rare Beauty and Heinz to brands just getting started, Shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates that can help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style and you can tackle all the important tasks in one place from inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. And if people haven't heard about your brand, you can get the word out. Like you have a marketing team behind you with easy to run email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling or strolling. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com realm go to shopify.com realm that's Shopify.
- [18:44]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
K Pop Demon Hunters Saja Boys Breakfast meal and Hunt Trick's meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take
- [18:56]
Commercial Narrator
breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.
- [18:58]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
It is an honor to share.
- [19:00]
Commercial Narrator
No, it's our honor.
- [19:02]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
It is our larger honor.
- [19:04]
Commercial Narrator
No, really, stop.
- [19:06]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.
- [19:12]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Participating McDonald's while supplies last.
- [19:15]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Now, one thing that you mentioned earlier was that she is more a compiler than a writer of recipes. Well, particularly when it comes to the cooking, I think that's been a bit of a point of criticism of her. Do you think that critique is fair?
- [19:28]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
I don't think it's fair. So there's 2,000 recipes in the book and I managed to find a historic source for every single one. Some of them going back to cookbooks in the Civil War. Really, really old. And she often lifts them just sort of verbatim. But I think this is a really important thing. She adds value in really important ways. Now what she does is she is the first person to put the ingredients at the top of the recipe. A woman who was writing slightly before her, Eliza Acton, had put the recipes at the end. She was the first person ever to do that. Before that, you just met, you met an ingredient as you were reading the recipe. So what Beason was able to do was to sort of turn the recipe into a culinary lesson. So it says make sure you've got these things. Make sure you've got some lemons and some chicken and some milk. Make sure they're on the table in front of you before you start, otherwise you're going to have this very unpleasant thing, you'll get halfway through the recipe and you won't have the important thing. So I think that's very, very important. The other thing she does, again building on Eliza act, and she gives very qu. Precise times for cooking. And again, that might sound so blinking obvious to us, but prior to this, often recipes, they often said things like heat until cooked because obviously there are no temperature controlled cooking or put to a smart fire, you know, I mean, so vague. So what Beason does, which I think is very helpful, is 30 to 40 minutes. She's always got her in mind, an inexperienced cook, someone rather like her, someone who actually hasn't run a big household, someone who is starting from scratch and perhaps doesn't live near her mother or her sister and so doesn't know who to ask. So I think she adds a lot of value like that. The other thing I think she does, which is incredibly useful, is that at the front of the original book of Household Management, there's pages and pages of an index, an alphabetical index. So if you want to look up chicken and then it'll be roast, boiled, fricasseed, it's a bit like a search engine. Now, in other words, it allows you to locate the information you want very, very quickly in a book, which is absolutely huge. And that again is a very, very user friendly thing to do. And that is very, very modern and interesting that the index comes at the front of the book, book at the back. So again, she's got a very, very clear sense of how the book is going to be used. She knows it's going to be dipped into. She doesn't actually have a fantasy that people are going to read it all the way through. It's a kind of compendium.
- [22:11]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
So we're actually talking about someone quite innovative with this format here.
- [22:16]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Yeah, she's incredibly innovative. So she gets, I think, a lot of stick. I think certainly after I wrote my book and could explain that every recipe had been lifted and then there was a lot of sort of huffing in the press about she's a fraud. She's really not. First of all, there wasn't copyright in the way that we understand it now. So that sense of recycling older material is not something that would have you up in the high court, which perhaps it would today. And also she Is, as I say, adding value, doing something with the material that's very, very innovative and actually has been copied by virtually every cookbook writer ever since.
- [22:53]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
So I think so often when we talk about Mrs. Beaton, it's in reference to the recipes and the cooking. How much of the work is about cooking and how much of it is really about running a household.
- [23:04]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, I think the cookery is still its beating heart, as it were. That is still, I think, why you go to Mrs. Beaton for the recipes. But, well, I don't know, maybe half of it is about running a household. There are as I say, some very funny chapters on what to pay your second footman, which again would be completely ludicrous for most of her readers who would probably have a maid of all work. But there's a sort of pleasure in reading about these kind of ridiculous things. It's a bit like watching Downton Abbey, I think in that sense. You know, that experience of that slightly aspirational. If I had a second footman, I must remember this is what I would pay him. But there's also lots of very useful information about how to treat your maid of all work, which is much more kind of likely. Do remember to be kind, don't overburden her, remember she's young, that kind of thing. There's very interesting chapters written by doctors actually not written by Isabella, about childhood illnesses, looking after your animals, how to get stones out of horses hooves. And then there's some very, very good social etiquette stuff. And again, this sounds slightly pompous, but it's very sensible. How to conduct a morning call, for instance. Now that sounds quite grad, but it really wasn't. Lots of very ordinary suburban housewives would call on each other. It says things like don't take your children, don't take your children, don't take your dog because not everybody likes dogs. Quite simple. And how long to stay, don't whitter on for an hour and a half. So these things are actually again, quite helpful, quite useful. If you haven't got a clue about how to do this new kind of married life thing, it's quite helpful.
- [24:47]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Some advice there, I think I'd certainly like to seek out. Do you have an. Any favourite tips and tricks that you particularly enjoy or actually you find are still relevant today?
- [24:57]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, I do think don't take your children along to a grown up event is quite sensible. There's some really funny ones. There's one which says it's explaining to people how to behave at a sort of Fairly posh dinner and it says very important, don't gargle at the table. And I've done many things at a dinner party but I've never felt the need to gargle and I don't know where that comes from, why people, people thought that would be a kind of fun thing to do. She's also very good, I mean, getting onto slightly delicate subjects. She does say that if you have a sort of slightly tricky digestive system and are prone to indigestion, don't eat a lot of. There's certain vegetables that basically might cause wind is what she's saying. But she's got a slightly polite way of phrasing it, but again, quite sensible. You know, you don't want to be eating lots of indigestible stuff if you've got like a dicky tummy. And so again, quite useful.
- [25:53]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Fantastic. What do you think this work can reveal about values, gender roles, social hierarchy, attitudes towards that at this time?
- [26:04]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Well, I think the thing to say is that what we think of Beaton's household management comes out in 1861 and thereafter right up to the present day, it is constantly being rewritten to keep it up to date. Okay, so when people talk about, people often say, oh yes, my mum had a Mrs. Beason and I think I'm often thinking in my mind, I expect she probably had a sort of 1910 edition or, you know, a 1940 edition. It's probably not the original book, not least because those are very valuable now. So the 1861 tells us all sorts of things about mid Victorian Britain. It explains that middle class women were no longer working outside the home at this point. It was considered genteel now to stay home. But you've got a lot of bright women who clearly don't just want to sit home and do nothing, nor do they just want to pay morning calls. And so Mrs. Beaton suggests, I mean, she refers to the mistress of the household as the commander of an army and says this is your army and it's your job to run it carefully, fairly economically and to make it a place where family like to be interesting. She also has a little thing about it's very important to run your home nicely if you want to make sure that your husband comes home on time and doesn't hang around pubs in the West End. So again, that does tell us something about what we have now is called the separate spheres. This is the sort of academic term. Men and women are living very different lives, they're coming together in the home There is a constant worry that men outside the house are getting up to no good at all. And there's a sort of anxiety with women about getting them back to the household as quickly as possible before they can get up to any mistreatment. So the first book tells you interestingly about that. What happens once you start looking at the edition from 1890 and even into the Edwardian period. These are books that Mrs. Beath and herself had nothing to do with, but you see different things reflected. So in the 1890s, it's quite extravagant, it's quite fast, a lot more money around, the recipes are a lot more kind of fancy. And then by the time you get to the Edwardian period, it's so fancy and bloated that there's things like how to fold your napkins so they look like swans. That sense of absolute sort of display, which you don't get so much in the original book. And then by the time we get to the 1930s, it's about how to run a household when there's a servant problem and you can't get proper domestic staff. And then by the 1970s, we have microwaving with Mrs. Beason. So it's a book that constantly and very interestingly reflects its time. It's always updated and it's always called Beaton or more regularly, Mrs. Beaton's book of House of Management by now. So it sort of gives the idea that Mrs. Beaton is still alive and well at 110 and overseeing these new additions, which of course she isn't. But it's all down to Isabella to create this kind of extraordinary first kind of creation which is sort of endlessly generative, which can be endlessly kind of realistic, adapted and spun off, made into new things.
- [29:18]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
When did it go from becoming Beaton's book to Mrs. Beaton's book?
- [29:22]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Not immediately. Not for about, I think, 15 years. Because Sam was, you know, quite a proud man. And it was Beaton's Book of House of Manchester for a long time. But what happened? They started having lots of spin offs like sixpenny cookery with Mrs. Beaton or Mrs. Beaton's book of cottage cookery, or Mrs. Beaton's sixpenny cookery. So what Sam is doing is hiving off bits of the. Maybe taking out the expensive illustrations, just putting in black and white ones. So what we call repackaging constantly. And at that point he starts to realize, I think once actually Isabella dies in 1865, just four years after the original book comes out, that actually she is kind of his greatest marketing tool. And at that point he starts to reinstate her. He sort of puts her name into the title and actually manages. I mean, when I say he pretends she hasn't died, I don't mean that he literally pretends that she hasn't died but he doesn't mention it. So it's giving the impression to the readers that she's out there in her kitchen happily dreaming up new recipes.
- [30:26]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
And I'm sure we're going to come on to her early death in a moment but before we do, I'd like to just ask you. We've spoken about her work but I'd like to go back to her day to day, her family life. Does it resemble the perhaps orderly domestic world that she describes in the book?
- [30:44]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
As far as I've been able to tell, no, not at all. Sam and Isabella go to live in Pinner, North London in a brand new build, semi detached. And they pick that part of London because it's as far away from their families as possible. So the wider family life of Isabella and Sam was not happy. Isabella's family were convinced that she married beneath her when she became obesan. They also thought that Sam, as it were, declassed her by making her go out to work regardless of the fact that she really enjoyed it. Both of them. Isabella and Sam go into the city every day. Sam's office is around St. Paul's the old printing quarter of London. Isabella goes with. She starts to become a commuter and it's very, very unusual. I mean we just don't see women commuting to work on a train at this point. But she does, she goes in. Her two eldest children have died very sadly so she hasn't got anything keeping her at home. She goes into town, she works on the English women's domestic magazine. She becomes its editress. The magazine is very successful. They start making trips to Paris to cover the fashions. That's Isabella's real interest is fashion, not food. And buy in luxurious fashion plates to run in the English women's domestic magazine. So she is a very, very modern career woman, completely different from this domestic goddess at home. It's an extraordinary dichotomy. And later when Sam very sadly goes bankrupt, they have to go and live in two rooms over the office in the city of London. So there's certainly not going to be much, you know, giving of dinner parties going on then.
- [32:20]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
I believe she had more than two children. Do we know about her relationship with those?
- [32:24]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
That's right. So after eight years of marriage. She sadly has lost two babies and an awful lot of miscarriages. So, you know, eight years in, she's got no children. Then finally in 1863 she has a boy who survives and then in 1865 she has another boy who sadly she dies giving birth to. So she had very little time for being a mother. Two years. So we really don't know.
- [32:49]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
It's not long at all, is it? She dies very young. Could you tell us about the situation around this?
- [32:54]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Yeah, I mean, she dies of something very common, pupperal fever. So an infection sets in after she gives birth to her second child, Mason Beason. And it's bacterial infection. Typically it's because the doctor hasn't washed his hands enough at this point, obviously there's very little understanding about how bacteria works. There's certainly no antibiotics. And so within a week she dies. That's really very, very sad and not uncommon. And as I say, she's 28, which is just, you know, she packed an extraordinary amount in. I also have a theory which I've been taken to town before, but I think I'm absolutely right. I think it's very likely that Sam contracted syphilis as a young man. It's very common amongst men at the time because middle class marriages tended not to happen until men were about 30. So that gives them, you know, the whole of their twenties, as it were, to sort of control quite natural feelings. It's no wonder that some of them the services of sex workers. And so there's an awful lot of syphilis amongst middle class men and of course, very sadly they tend to give the infection to their wives. This would certainly be account for Isabella's run of stillborn children and miscarriages. So I think that's really very likely. Sam only lives till 47 and appears to be suffering from full blown tertiary syphilis and that seems to be what kills him. It is not the case though that I don't think that Isabella died of syphilis, she died of puperal fever, which just is all the sadder for being so ordinary and for being so easily controllable.
- [34:30]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Now it's a really sad end and also so young as well. I'd like to ask you a little bit about her legacy. At the beginning of this podcast, you spoke about the cultural resonance of Mrs. Beaton. Why do you think Isabella, Mrs. Beaton remains such a powerful cultural symbol in Britain even now, in the centuries since her death?
- [34:53]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
If I'm completely honest, I don't know in the sense it is an extraordinary fluke. I can think of reasons why, and I think it's to do with she created this book, which caused a stir. But then after her death, Sam's very clever marketing of it, of creating many Mrs. Beatons out of the original Mrs. Beaton as it was. So as I said before, the cottage. Mrs. Beaton entertaining with Mrs. Beaton, all these kind of spin offs sort of managed to. He managed to give the effect that she was everywhere in the culture, that she kind of saturated the culture. Interestingly, he then started drafting in people to help him. He had a relationship with a woman. After Isabella's death, she was brought in to be, as it were, Mrs. Beason. She did a lot of the work. She helped him source recipes, find patterns in Paris. And then when Mason Beason, the younger son, got married, obviously his. His wife was known as Mrs. Beason. She then starts updating all the material. And technically she's not telling a lie, because she is Mrs. Beaton. I think it's the first sort of viral brand, really. I think that is why it's so interesting. She's always Mrs. Beaton, but kind of under that umbrella are these kind of extraordinary spin offs which you find everywhere in the culture. I think that must be the reason. I don't think it could ever be reproduced either.
- [36:27]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
As a final question to you, then, if we return to our Mrs. Beaton, the Mrs. Beaton, Isabella Beaton, if she was writing today, if she was compiling tidbits and recipes and tips, what aspects of modern domestic life do you think she would be either fascinated by or utterly horrified by?
- [36:48]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
I think for a start, she and Sam would have Instagram down and TikTok, because what Sam did with the book and the magazine, it was only possible because there were new technological developments in paper making, so paper became very cheap. That's why you could have these sort of mass market publications. So I think in the same way they absolutely would spot new ways of carrying content. I think they'd be on it, they'd be across it. I think she would be doing a lot of tips, quick suppers when you're in a hurry, what to do when the children come in from school and they're very hungry, but it's two hours till supper. I think she'd be very good at spotting points of pressure, inflection points in contemporary living places where things don't quite work. But she can sort of swoop in and say, so your child is always whining for sweets. Okay, but let's look at it. Maybe there's something we could do where this tastes really, really nice, but actually hasn't got that much sugar in it. So I think she would be very, very like that. I don't think she'd be doing the high end stuff. That's just my hunch.
- [37:57]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
It's a great hunch. I feel like that'd be very marketable today, wouldn't it?
- [38:01]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Yeah. Yeah. And she would be all about that.
- [38:05]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
That was Catherine here Hughes, speaking to me. Emily Brifitts Catherine is an author, historian and biographer. Her book on Isabella Beaton is the Short Life and long times of Mrs. Beaton, the first domestic goddess.
- [38:29]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Hey business owners, the NFL season is a big revenue driver driver. Now there's a smarter way to get ready. Everpass is the only authorized commercial platform for NFL Sunday ticket, delivering every live out of market regular season Sunday afternoon game. Lock in the best offer now with up to 40% off saving up to $2,500 for the first time. You can pay over nine months. Get up to six free devices and a free bar kit. Sign up by April 27th. Visit everpass.com Limited time offer terms applied. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront
- [39:21]
Commercial Narrator
payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile.
- [39:31]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [39:40]
Commercial Narrator
Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird.
- [39:43]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
What is this, your first date?
- [39:44]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Oh no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [39:51]
Podcast Host (Emily Briffitts)
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [39:52]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
Anyways, only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [39:56]
Catherine Hughes (Author, Historian, Biographer)
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.