The forgotten JFK assassination plot

Summary

History Extra Podcast: The Forgotten JFK Assassination Plot

Episode: The Forgotten JFK Assassination Plot
Release Date: February 10, 2025
Host/Author: Immediate Media

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Introduction to the Forgotten Plot

In the compelling episode titled "The Forgotten JFK Assassination Plot," hosts Josh Mensch and Brad Meltzer delve into a lesser-known chapter of American history—the attempted assassination of President-elect John F. Kennedy in December 1960. Drawing insights from their book, JFK Conspiracy, the duo uncovers the intricate details of a plot that nearly altered the course of history before Kennedy even took office.

The Assassination Attempt Unveiled

Brad Meltzer sets the stage by recounting the harrowing events of December 11, 1960:

"[03:22]...John F. Kennedy has just been elected President of the United States...Richard Pavlik is determined to kill him. Pavlik loads his car with dynamite, positioning himself about 20 yards away from Kennedy's Palm Beach estate. At 10:00 AM church time, Pavlik plans to detonate the bomb as Kennedy steps into his car, effectively ending the Democrats' presidency before it begins."

This chilling narrative introduces listeners to Richard Pavlik, a disgruntled postal worker whose deep-seated prejudices fuel his lethal intentions.

Richard Pavlik: A Portrait of Extremism

Josh Mensch provides a deeper understanding of Pavlik's motivations and background:

"[06:19]...Richard Pavlik, a retired postal worker from Belma, New Hampshire, harbored intense anti-Catholic sentiments. A World War I veteran, Pavlik's earlier attempts to establish a Protestant-only veterans group highlight his entrenched bigotry. The election of a Catholic president, especially amid the fervent civil rights movements and anti-immigration sentiments fueled by groups like the Ku Klux Klan, became a catalyst for Pavlik's drastic actions."

Pavlik's obsession with Kennedy exemplifies the dangerous intersection of personal vendettas and societal prejudices.

1960 Election: A Nation Divided

The episode contextualizes the turbulent political landscape of 1960:

"[Josh Mensch]...1960 was one of the most bitterly fought elections in American history. The nation was deeply divided over issues like civil rights, with Kennedy pushing for progress despite internal party resistance. Anti-Catholicism and anti-immigration sentiments further polarized the electorate, creating a volatile environment that ultimately set the stage for assassination attempts like Pavlik's."

This divisiveness mirrors contemporary political tensions, underscoring the episode's relevance today.

JFK's Charismatic Persona

Brad Meltzer explores Kennedy's magnetic personality and its impact:

"[09:05]...Kennedy's charisma was unparalleled. Described by Secret Service agents as someone who commanded attention effortlessly, his charm was both a political asset and a personal vulnerability. This magnetic presence not only endeared him to the public but also made him a target for adversaries like Pavlik."

Kennedy's ability to captivate audiences contributed to both his popularity and the envy it incited.

The Role of the Secret Service and Clint Hill

Introducing key figures from the Kennedy administration, the hosts highlight the crucial role of the Secret Service:

"[17:05]...Clint Hill, a young Secret Service agent on Jacqueline Kennedy's detail, provides a unique perspective on the assassination attempts. Initially disillusioned with his assignment, Hill grows to deeply respect and protect the First Lady, becoming an integral part of the narrative surrounding Kennedy's safety."

Hill's firsthand accounts offer invaluable insights into the measures taken to protect the president-elect.

Why This Story Remains Obscure

Brad Meltzer addresses the obscurity of this assassination attempt:

"[24:20]...The assassination plot didn't make headlines because, just as the story was about to break, a catastrophic plane crash overshadowed it. With limited media outlets compared to today's digital landscape, Pavlik's plot faded into obscurity, becoming a mere footnote in history rather than a widely recognized event."

The convergence of tragic events and the era's media limitations contributed to the plot's obscurity.

Jacqueline Kennedy: Crafting a Legacy

The episode delves into Jacqueline Kennedy's pivotal role in shaping JFK's enduring legacy:

"[33:22]...Jackie Kennedy masterfully crafted the 'Camelot' myth, transforming the Kennedy presidency into a symbol of hope and idealism. Through strategic narratives and her own grace under pressure, she ensured that the Kennedys would be remembered as a paragon of American excellence, even amidst personal and political turmoil."

Jackie's adept handling of public perception solidified the Kennedys' iconic status in American history.

Lessons for Today: Parallels and Reflections

Wrapping up, the hosts draw parallels between the 1960s and the present day:

"[28:21]...The episode emphasizes how political divisions and prejudices can incite violence, much like the forces that led to Pavlik's attempt. The resurgence of divisive rhetoric in contemporary politics serves as a stark reminder of the dangers of unchecked bigotry and the importance of fostering unity."

This reflection invites listeners to consider the enduring impact of historical events on current societal dynamics.

Conclusion: A Pivotal 'What If'

In closing, Josh Mensch reflects on the significance of exploring this forgotten plot:

"[30:26]...Understanding this assassination attempt provides a nuanced view of Kennedy's presidency and the fragile nature of political stability. It underscores the importance of vigilance against extremist ideologies that can threaten democratic institutions."

The episode leaves listeners contemplating the fragile intersections of personal motives and historical trajectories, highlighting the profound "what ifs" that shape our understanding of the past.

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For a deeper exploration of this topic, listeners are encouraged to read Brad Meltzer and Josh Mensch's book, JFK Conspiracy. Discover more compelling historical narratives by subscribing to the History Extra podcast and staying informed with gripping stories from the annals of history.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the History Extra podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. In December 1960, as President elect John F. Kennedy made his way to church in Florida, a would be assassin waited nearby, preparing to detonate a bomb that would end the Democrats presidency before it even began. Brad Meltzer and Josh Mensch discussed this little known plot in their new book, the JFK Conspiracy. In today's podcast, they tell Eleanor Evans more about the episode and dive deeper into the reasons why Kennedy's election victory was fraught with tension.

[Carvana Representative]

I'm really pleased to welcome Josh Mench and Brad Meltzer back to the podcast. They have been previous guests on our podcast before talking about presidents and political assassination attempts. And we are talking about another one today. It's a little known attempt to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Brad, I hope we can start with you first and you can situate us in the story. Where do we meet Kennedy in this account?

[Friend 3]

Well, we really meet him in World War II. We see the hero that he is in World War II truly putting his own men on his back when his boat is sent to smithereens and they're drowning in the water. And they find themselves on various islands in the Solomon Islands, his PT109, a Japanese mine, destroys it. The crew is just decimated. Some of them are unconscious and so can't swim. Obviously they can all swim there, but, you know, you have a guy who's barely conscious and Kennedy truly puts him on his back and swims with him. One of those things if you saw in a movie, you'd be like, that's too ridiculous to be the person who becomes the President one day. But it sets the tone of this. You know, what Kennedy is, is this perfect guy. That's what he's sold as, right? He's got the perfect hair and he's got the perfect teeth, and he's got the perfect smile and he's got the perfect tan. He's got the perfect wife and she's got all the perfect clothes and the perfect taste. And boy, isn't Camelot wonderful. And of course, Camelot is a bit of a fraud. And that's not at all what the reality is. And we picked that part very consciously at the start, but the real beginning of where the book opens. It opens on December 11, 1960. And when you see a disgruntled postal worker named Richard Pavlik who's in his car. John F. Kennedy has just been elected the President of the United States. He hasn't been sworn in yet. He's at his estate in Palm Beach, Florida, and Pavlick is determined to kill him. And what he does is he loads his car up with dynamite, about 10 sticks of dynamite. He's got a switch, and all he has to do is hit the switch and the car will explode. He's about 20 yards away from Kennedy across the street. He knows what time Kennedy comes out every morning to go to church. 10:00am he's got to make 10:00am Church. So show up at that time. Secret Service will be there. Kennedy will get in the car. All this guy Richard Pavlik has to do is hit the gas, hit the gas, hit the switch, and boom goes the dynamite. And that would be the death of Kennedy. I will not ruin the JFK conspiracy by telling you why he doesn't thwarts that attempt in that moment, but when you see what does thwart it, it's one of the great ironies and amazing moments in history of what could have been. I just ruined chapter one of the JFK conspiracy for you. But that is truly chapter one is that moment right when he's about to hit the dynamite. And that's where we begin. And then we flash backwards to see him in World War II and see the person from that moment. We go backwards and then bring it to the present day.

[Carvana Representative]

Right. Well, it's an incredibly tense moment that we join you in. You just brought it to life a bit for us there. And as you say, we won't spoil anything, but we are going to unpack a little bit of it in our chat today. Josh, I wonder if I can come to you and you would mind giving us a bit more historical context for the tensions that are happening at this time in 1960 and why Pavlik might have been motivated to do something like this or be looking to do something like this.

[Josh Mensch]

Sure. Well, 1960 was an election year, and it was one of the most bitterly fought elections in American history. And the country was very divided at that moment on a lot of issues. And jfk, John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon were the two candidates. And the country was just full of anger and rage. And the divisions were very stark. And a lot of it was civil rights. The Civil rights movement was picking up at the time. The Democratic Party, with JFK at the head, was trying to move in a direction of civil rights, although it was hard because even within their own party there was resistance to it. Nixon and the Republicans were kind of on the other side of it. So there was a lot of tension about that. And John F. Kennedy is the second Catholic American candidate to be for president of a major party in the history of the United States, and the only one before him. Back in the 20s, a candidate named Al Smith got completely trounced, largely because of his Catholicism. So JFK is trying to break that prejudice against Catholic Americans running for president. And as we get into in the book, it's not just the kind of theological things like, oh, the Protestants disagree with the Catholics about theology. Catholicism at the time was very linked to immigration. All the great waves of immigration in the early part of the 20th century into the United States were largely Catholic. And so the anti immigration sentiment was very focused on Catholicism. And the group that was most anti Catholic was the Ku Klux Klan. And of course, we associate the KKK with racism at the end of the Civil War, being against the end of slavery and committing horrible acts of violence against black Americans. But in the 1920s and through the 20th century, immigration was their new enemy. And all that hatred they had towards black people, they also focused that on the Jewish Americans and immigrants coming from all over the world, many or most of whom were Catholic. And so this anti Catholicism was very linked to other forms of prejudice in the country. And that was the backdrop of this election in 1960. And the big question was, could a Catholic American actually be elected? And Kennedy was the one who was gonna test it. And there was a lot of anger, a lot of rage on this issue. And that's kind of the setting for our.

[Carvana Representative]

It's so interesting to see the juxtaposition, isn't it, between the heroism that you mentioned, Brad, and Kennedy's story of what he did in the South Pacific with this sort of the bigotry that was against him. It's no spoiler to say that he wins the election. But I wonder if we can turn to you, Brad, and you could take us into Kennedy's charisma, his personal presence, because I think this is a really big part of the story to pull out.

[Friend 3]

Yeah, and I appreciate that. It is one of the most staggering to me. You know, I'm not old enough that I. I lived when Kennedy was around, but, you know, I hear the stories of how charismatic he was. I certainly can see the pictures. We've all seen that. But then you hear the inside story, and they're staggering. You have this man who, you know, the best way I can say it is, is Eisenhower. His Predecessor represents the 1950s, right? A very kind of mom and dad said, guy comes home from work and mom is in the kitchen and you're going to have dinner on the table. And it's a very old conservative view of the world, the how America worked back then. And here comes Kennedy. In Eisenhower's time, when you were the president, he didn't talk to the Secret Service. He was a guy, you know, he was all business. Secret Service just stays in the background. Eisenhower comes off the plane and that's the job. You just watch him, make sure he's safe. And here comes jfk, and JFK gets, you know, elected. And one of my favorite scenes in the whole book, as he comes off the plane in Florida for the first time, and he's supposed to just get to the car, just go walk down the steps and walk in the car, just like Eisenhower did. But he sees that there's all these people waiting at the fence, all these people cheering for him. So we're used to it today, right? All politicians today, they gotta go running for their crowds. But he looks at that crowd and beelines for it. And the Secret Service are going, oh, my gosh, what do we do here? Not only do they not realize that Pavlick is one of the people in the crowd, we find that out later. But when Kennedy takes them to his house, they're in Florida. They're all wearing suits and ties. They're in Florida, so they're sweating. And JFK looks at him and says, hey, what size shirts you guys? Then goes into his house, comes out with new clothing, his own clothes, and they puts it on the Secret Service. And, you know, they barely know this guy an hour, and they're already wearing his clothes. And I tell you that story because what all of his Secret Service agents say about him in the firsthand accounts is everyone, you know, they say, oh, he's just supposed to be the boss, but they can't take their eyes off him. There's something about him that attracts people, and it makes you feel like you're the only person not just in the room, but in the universe. And that is a. An incredible thing that he uses as a weapon. He really does. He almost weaponizes it to bring people in. And the other people that he brings in, you know, I think that. I personally think the people that have that. That thing that need to charm, they also have a hole that they can't fill. Right? That's why you do it. And Kennedy certainly has the same thing. I'm sure we'll get into this. But, you know, his need to cheat on his wife, his need for validation from other women, we go very deeply into the book to talk about that and show you that that charm is something. It's not just that, you know, he's turned it on and people come running, but he has a need for attention and for, you know, whatever. Whatever those needs are, he is using it at all times for great things, you know, as being president and for horrible things, being a terrible husband.

[Carvana Representative]

It's clear It's a complex picture from what you're saying, and your book certainly proves that as well. You've given us a sense of this rising tide of bigotry in the States. And you've got this young president elect with a bit of a target on his back because of this bigotry. Can we bring in Pavlik a bit more here? You've mentioned him a little, but I wonder if you can flesh him out a bit for listeners. Who is Pavlik in this story?

[Josh Mensch]

So Richard Pavlak is a person that very, very, very few people have heard of, but he was a retired postal worker living in a small town in New Hampshire called Belma. And he was someone who subscribed to this anti Catholicism and this bigotry. We don't know a whole lot about him or his views, but earlier in his life, he had actually tried to start a veterans group. He was a veteran of World War I. He tried to start a veterans group that forbid Catholics and Jews from participating was to be a Protestant only veterans group. So that gives you a little sense of what he was all about. And his name had come up. A few people who were sort of following prejudice and hate groups had learned about him, so he was on the radar. But, you know, other than that, he was a completely unknown person who just lived this life in a small town. But the election of Kennedy really got him quite aggravated and his prejudices were inflamed. There was a lot of animosity towards Kennedy from a lot of different directions. And Pavlik just sort of soaked it up and he was just furious about the election. It was a bitterly fought, very close election. The true result wasn't known until the next day. And so there was just a lot of tension around it, and he just was not having it. And he just wouldn't accept the result. And it sent him over the edge. And he goes and I don't want to give too much away, but he embarks on this quest to kind of pursue and follow the new president elect, John F. Kennedy. And maybe I'll let Brad give a few more details, but his intentions are not good, we'll put it that way.

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[Friend 3]

Restrictions may apply then the key thing about Pavlick is, you know, when you talk to Secret Service agents, and I've studied the assassins who have killed presidents, one of the things you find is that they split potential assassins into two groups. There's hunters and there's howlers. And a howler is someone who makes a lot of noise and who says, I'm going to kill that person. I hate that person. I'm going to come get him. He's the worst. And you know, make a lot of noise, beat their chest, but they rarely do anything. But hunters are very different. They make almost no noise and they get the job done. And if you look at the four presidents that have been killed in the United States history, from Abraham Lincoln all the way to jfk, all four of them are hunters. They're not howlers. The interesting part about Pavlick is he really is. When you look at him, he really does, for the most part resemble a hunter, except he can't keep his mouth shut. And of course I won't ruin the ending of it, but it is, you know, while he's going south, he starts heading south from New Hampshire and starts going down to Hyannis Port, starts seeing Kennedy in Massachusetts, then makes his way to Washington, D.C. and then, of course, winds up in Florida. Wherever Kennedy is, he's going to try and find the best spot to do him in. The one mistake that Pavlova keeps making is he starts writing letters to people in a weird way, almost telegraphing what he's about to do. And of course, that is not as helpful to his cause as I think he would ever wish it to be.

[Carvana Representative]

Okay, well, let's pause Pavlik's story there then, because we do want to leave the ending of this episode for people to discover. I wonder if we can turn to somebody else in your book whose name I admit I've never heard, but I've seen footage of him. Clint Hill is a man who really comes to the fore in your account and is the other side of the coin from Pavlik. Josh, can you introduce us to Clint?

[Josh Mensch]

Sure. Well, the Secret Service is an important component of our book. In some ways. We tell the story or parts of the story through the viewpoint of Secret Service agents. And one of those agents that we focus on is named Clint Hill. And he was not the President's Secret Service agent. He was on the First Lady's detail. He was Jacqueline Kennedy's secretary, Secret Service agent. And you know, what's sort of amusing in the book that we cover is that when Clint Hill, who's, you know, he's in his late 20s, he's a young guy, and he had been on Eisenhower's detail, when he first learns his assignment in the new administration, he's really disappointed. He wanted to be around the President. You know, that's where his buddies were. And there was, you know, he was a macho guy, and he wanted to be where the action one is.

[Carvana Representative]

He.

[Josh Mensch]

And he was like, oh, the First Lady's detail? This is going to be tea parties and luncheons, and I want nothing to do with that. And he's disappointed. But of course, at that time, people don't quite understand who Jacqueline Kennedy is. And her star is starting to rise. She is becoming an absolute phenomenon in the United States. And he soon learns that being on Jacqueline Kennedy's detail is just about the most unbelievable and fascinating and exciting job that anyone could possibly have. And they end up forming this just unbelievable relationship. And so he's one of those agents who ends up having a kind of front row seat to this assassination attempt because he's with her every step of the way from the moment of the election until the inauguration. And he's also communicating with the members of the service who are on the president's detail, the president elects detail. And so we're getting their perspective as they're getting to know the new president and the new president's wife, and as this assassination attempts comes to all their attention and sort of comes to a climax in Florida when the whole family's down there. So that's Clint Hill. We also focus on another agent named Gerald Blame. But I think there's something about the perspective of the agent who's following Jacqueline Kennedy that is especially fascinating. And we really spend a lot of time there.

[Carvana Representative]

Can we bring in Jacqueline this time? Brad, you've already alluded to Kennedy's flawed legacy, particularly with his womanizing and so on. Can you take us into what's known about this and how it affected Jackie as well?

[Friend 3]

Yeah, you know, and I think for Josh and I, when we were working on the book, we obviously found this, this assassination attempt. And then you say, okay, how do we tell this story? And what we realized is you can't tell this story, especially the ending of it, without understanding the Kennedy marriage, without understanding Camelot itself, without understanding. Of course, Jackie. You know, Jackie is an incredible figure. She's, you know, because the thing about being the president or being the first lady is they tend to be filled by people who love hearing their own voice, who love being the center of attention. But here's Jackie Kennedy, who wants the opposite of that, you know, And I always tell my kids, if you. You want to know who the coolest person is in the room is the person who doesn't care about being cool, they already know they're cool. And I feel like that's the easiest way for me to describe Jackie Kennedy is she doesn't need all this attention. She's happy with her life the way it is. And so she doesn't need to be in front of camera. She doesn't need for everyone to know what she's wearing or doing or how she dresses. And of course, the moment she doesn't need us, she becomes all the more alluring. And now when she says she doesn't want to talk to us, we want to hear more and more and more. And so around the world, there's a beautiful moment in the book where Kennedy goes and travels abroad. I forget exactly where he is. And he gets there and he says, I'd like to introduce myself. I am Jackie Kennedy's husband. Right. I mean, it's an incredible thing that crowds are swarming to see this woman, to see what she's wearing to see the style and to see everything. And the thing that was crushing to me is you also get to see her at the start of her career. She starts as a young news reporter. She's making the rounds in Washington, D.C. writing gossip columns and the man on the street interviews that she's doing. And, you know, she's obviously amazing at it. You see her in the early days of her marriage and she's, you know, she falls in love with this charismatic person. And to me, one of the most heart wrenching scenes in the whole book is this moment where one of Kennedy's friends comes up to her at a party. His friend Ned, I forget his last name, says to her, you know, I just got to be honest with you. I got to tell you that Jack, he loves women. And he basically admits to her, listen, if you marry this guy, he's going to sleep around on you. Now, can you imagine that moment of what she's thinking? What's going, you know, that one of his best friends comes and says, he, you know, that it's going to be infidelity in your marriage. It's just a mathematical fact. That's who this guy is. And she does what I think anyone would do in that situation, especially someone confident and beautiful and at the start of their young life, and thinks, well, I'll be able to fix it. I'll be able to. Not me, it's going to be different with me. But it isn't at all. And we took a, you know, Josh and I, I know it's titillating to tell you, oh, you can read the stuff about Kennedy's affairs, but we felt like it was vital to understanding that marriage and understanding what Jackie's going through. Because you have this couple that is selling, as we spoke, a Camelot to the masses that is saying, here's everything that's perfect. And when you see her in that moment of her ninth month, you know, she's pregnant and she's about to give birth and she hemorrhages and she's bleeding and they rush her to the hospital and she needs emergency surgery. You know where JFK is? Not with her, not home, not even close. He's on a plane headed to Florida and he knows that she's close to giving birth. My wife would kill me if I left that day. But he leaves her alone. And it's important to see that they're selling one thing out there. And all these people know, his neighbors know. And the Kendi kind of apparatus is truly keeping these stories Quiet getting these stories and making sure no one knows about them, trying to keep them out of the press. For us, as we were telling that story, especially as, as Jack had become such an important part of the end of this book, we felt like it was so important to see that she's fighting for her husband and fighting for all this world and this universe of Camelot. But that's not what she's living or experiencing in her day to day life.

[Carvana Representative]

I really do want to come onto Jackie's construction of this legacy in a little while. But before we go much further, I'm sure listeners are wondering you've brought us into how you construct the story, moving around these cast of characters as you reconstruct this assassination attempt by Richard Pablock. But there are these names, Jackie Kennedy, jfk, that are some of the most famous in the world. Yet people might not have heard about this attempt. Brad, what's your take on why?

[Friend 3]

It is the question, right? Why do you not know this story? And the reason is because when it happens, it is a big story. It's about to run on the front page of all these papers. It runs, of course, obviously in Florida where it's happening. But just as the story is about to be reported, reported, there's actually a plane crash. Two planes that hit each other over New York in a terrible story where everyone dies except for one young kid. And that becomes the story that takes the entire country's attention. The sole survivor of this plane crash, will he live? Will he die? What's going to happen? It's an incredible moment that just wipes this story off the front page. And again, I think now in this world we live in, you know, people would be on Instagram, you'd be on Facebook and you'd be on threads and you'd be on all these things that we'd all be typing and saying, look at this, look what happened. But back then there were only X amount of news outlets. So stories that were going to run big, just run it really small and it becomes a footnote to history. And especially of course, what eventually happens to Kennedy, you know, when he really is killed. Then the story of him almost being killed becomes an even smaller footnote at that.

[Carvana Representative]

What brought you both to the story?

[Josh Mensch]

We were both intrigued about writing a JFK book. I think we both felt like that's the era we wanted to cover next. Our books have been sort of chronological. I mean, they have been chronological. We've covered the Revolutionary War of George Washington, we've covered the Civil War and Abraham Lincoln did a World War II related book about FDR and Winston Churchill. And we say, well, what's the next exciting era of American history? And, you know, we were just like, well, jfk, you know, let's dive into that era. But we didn't know what story necessarily we wanted to tell. And we were looking at some other presidencies as well. But once we found this story, it was just that amazing moment of like, I've never heard this story. This presidency almost didn't happen. Jfk, one of the most iconic presidents in American history, one of the most famous names and people in the world. This presidency almost didn't happen. And it was because of this one person who now everyone's forgotten about. And you just think, well, what happened there? What's this story? Why did this person potentially want to kill the president? And how was it stopped? And sure enough, it ends up opening this window into this incredibly fascinating moment in American history when JFK is just elected and the world is changing, the country is changing, and this assassination attempts really could have changed the course of history. And so we both felt like we have to, we have to learn more about this.

[Friend 3]

And I'll also add, Eleanor, you know, all of that, of course, is correct. And I think the thing, Josh, tell me how you feel about this. But I think as we were going, the thing that we, that both jumped out of both of us was just that those parallels with where we are today, Right? I mean, it's a moment where the country is so deeply divided, each side hates the other side. Whatever side you're on, you think the other side are horrible, terrible people. Does that sound familiar to you? That's right. We are. And it's no surprise that Abraham Lincoln is killed at the height of the, you know, as the Civil War is, you know, is ending. You have Kennedy, who's, again, this attempt happens at the height of this division. It's no surprise. You, you know, as President Trump is elected, right, you're seeing these attempts that are on his life. When you have two sides who hate each other, and especially in the JFK case where you have this, you know, the side that is going after jfk, they're just barreling forward with these ideas that all immigrants are bad and he's not going to be true to America, he's going to be true to his religion, he's going to be true to immigrants and not us. When you whip all that hatred up, you can't be surprised when you incite somebody out there. And it's the most dangerous thing of this game that's being played right now in the United States. It really is. And it's a scary one because I can tell you there's someone out there that's really, really mad right now. And the more we whip that up as a culture, the worse it is for our culture.

[Carvana Representative]

Lessons to be learned, for sure. I wonder if we can come to one more detail that I really, really find fascinating about your book. Once the assassination attempt is foiled, what's Kennedy's reaction?

[Josh Mensch]

It's interesting. John F. Kennedy himself thinks very little of it. He's not the kind of person who's going to be freaked out, you know, by some loner from New Hampshire, you know, who threatened to kill him. And the Secret Service agents. And the Secret Service are very upset about this. They're terrified. They take this situation very seriously. They all say after the fact that this was one of the closest assassination attempts they know of. And it could have been an absolute tragedy and an absolute disaster. And they take it very seriously. But he kind of brushes it off. And he's a young guy, he served in World War II. You know, he had near death experiences. He saved an entire platoon from the Japanese. He's not going to be afraid of this loner from New Hampshire, and he just kind of brushes it off. And we don't really know what Jacqueline thought about it because she did never really said anything about it. We imagine that she learned about it, it was in the newspaper, so she must have. And she was always sort of feared for her husband's life, but she never really spoke about it or wrote about it. And Kennedy himself brushed it off. And that also might be a reason why the story got kind of lost, because Kennedy himself didn't take it very seriously. The Secret Service took it very seriously, but he didn't take it seriously. And only really later, once all the Secret Service files became public, do we know what a very close call this was. So again, he kind of brushed it off, didn't take it too seriously. And of course, he was also working on his inauguration speech, literally on the day that this happened. So he had a lot on his mind and he was preparing for the start of his presidency and he quickly forgot about it.

[Carvana Representative]

So it's clearly a very important moment in history, a big what if? And we don't go in for too much counterfactual stuff on this podcast particularly. But I wonder if, when you were writing this, what sort of questions were going through your head? Did you have any moments where you were sort of speculating, like, what if this had happened, Brad?

[Friend 3]

You know, the hardest part about this book personally for me and Josh, you know, every time we go in the book, Josh and I are just so aligned. We see the research and the history so the same. But when you end with the George Washington book, you know, we win the Revolutionary War and you end even when Lincoln, you know, even though he's killed in the end, it's the end of the Civil War. When we do the Nazi conspiracy and we have Winston Churchill, yes, FDR dies, but Winston Church, you know, we. Again, World War II, you know, Hitler dies and we win. But in this one, you know what's coming. And it's not coming that far away, right? It's. It's just barely, you know, it's a little over two and a half years away in real time. And the ending's horrible and it's terrible. And the thing is, is at the beginning of every presidency, you know, they always run the same. They're, you know, the numbers when you come in are just filled with hope. And think of who Kennedy was. He's, you know, one of the youngest, most amazing politicians who've ever lived. He's glamorous in a way that no one has been since. I don't care who you are. He's just selling the world something that we are eating hand over fist. We can't get enough. And the country, you know, feels like this is our guy. Even though it's a deeply divided country, the buy in is there. They're suddenly going on tour of the White House. And the weird part is you never really know what the full outcome is. So if he dies two years earlier, I think you can't help but play what if? I don't like playing that game. But I can't help but play it right. You have to. And the weird thing is, is when we got to the end of this book, we're like, well, then how do we end it? Because it is such a sad ending. And we had to come, of course, to the inaugural address itself, which is one of the most hopeful, amazing, inspiring, breathtaking orations ever given in history. And Josh and I kept saying, do we use this part or do we use this party? We use this party. This part, you know, is the good news or is it the bad news? Like, what's the lesson? And we finally realized, and again, just where we are as a culture. So Kennedy amazing and wonderful and terrific and idealistic, or is he reckless and thoughtless and a horrible husband? Or is he like all of us, a little bit of both. And that's where we kind of net out with him. And so I don't. If he dies two and a half years later, does that change? I don't know. You know, do we lose, obviously, the Bay of Pigs and some other things that happened? Of course. But I think what. What the crushing part of Kennedy's death is is that feeling like what has been killed is idealism itself. And that's the crushing blow, at least for, you know, I can speak on the American side of things. It just feels like that balloon gets popped so viciously.

[Carvana Representative]

And if we can turn, then I promised we would, we can turn to Jackie's role in constructing his legacy for the public, his public image in the wake of his death. Can you take listeners into a bit of what you explored in the book there?

[Josh Mensch]

Well, I'll let Brad tell part of this story, but just to kind of transition from the previous question, you know, I think what the Kennedy presidency represented to such an extent to Americans and in American history was this. This incredible hope and this optimism and this idealism. And that was not an accident that Americans feel that way about the Kennedys, who felt that way and continue to feel that way. It was a myth that was constructed. The glamour and the imagery of that family is just kind of like etched in all of our brains. And I remember growing up as a child and as a teenager, like the Kennedys and JFK and Jacqueline Kennedy were these just idealized, mythic characters. And that was all very carefully constructed. It was part of the plan. And the Kennedys learned that that image meant a lot. And it was part of their power, and it was part of what the public loved about them. And they worked very hard to cultivate it. And even though a lot of it wasn't necessarily true, they weren't a picture perfect family as we get into in the book, but the image was there. And it's that image that ends up being kind of what we end on. And I'll let Brad tell the actual details, but it's all about the construction of the memory and the myth of the Kennedy family.

[Friend 3]

No, and I agree, Josh and I appreciate that. You know, Josh and I were going back and forth and we were writing the book. I remember, as you know, we always do, where he takes the first pass and then I get the second pass. Then we go back and forth and back and forth and we talk. And I remember thinking. And we were talking to him and just going, when's Camelot up here? When did they get that word Camelot. When did they start selling that word Camelot? Because I thought for sure, you know, it must be right at the start in the inauguration. Is that. Is it in the address? Like, where is it? Come we all associate that word Camelot with the Kennedys. And then we found that it actually comes after JFK's death. The book ends. And again, this is not ruin anything, but we do a real deep dive into. Into the actual true death of jfk. You get to see it from a perspective you probably haven't seen before, which is Jackie's perspective. It's an incredible firsthand account from Clint Hill. And the world is, of course, fractured and destroyed, and it feels like everything is falling apart in that moment. And Life magazine decides that they're going to put together a special issue to deal with Kennedy's actual assassination. But the one voice that's missing, that's never granted an interview is of course, the person who was right there next to him, which is Jackie Kennedy. The person who was literally at one point trying to hold his brains into his head in that famous pink dress with the pillbox hat. And Jackie invites the reporter from Life magazine and says, I'm going to grant you your interview. I want you to come to my house and I'm going to give you that interview. And for a couple hours in the middle of the night, he's there until, I think it's after midnight. He gets the interview of a lifetime to interview First Lady Jackie Kennedy for the first time about the death of her husband. And in that moment, Jackie Kennedy tells the story of how the physical pain her husband used to be in because of back injuries from his old World War II exploits and his thieves that he had on those early days. But when he couldn't sleep, one of the things that he loved was this recording, this song. And he. She reads this line about Camelot. And that's where Camelot enters the lexicon in terms of the Kennedy administration and the Kennedy family. Because in that moment, you know, Jackie Kennedy in her life, she's a part of the press. She starts as a reporter, she's brutalized by the press, she's obsessed over by the press, but she's also a master of the press, and she knows what she's doing. She sits there with that reporter, and they. As he files his story, she sits there, there to make sure that her words are the words she wants that go out there. And in that Life magazine issue that everyone reads, because it's the firsthand account, is where Camelot is put on the Kennedys for the first time, and it's there forever. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this woman did it. She relabeled the whole disaster in one of the most amazing, subtle PR moments I've ever seen. And it's incredible. And it comes from her, which is why I think when people read the JFK conspiracy, when you read the book, you'll see why so much of it is about Jackie. It's why she's so important. And I'm not even telling you the ending of what she does on the assassination attempt.

[Carvana Representative]

So that's the legacy that is sort of handed to the world in late 1963, as your book shows. It could have been very different. It could have been in late 1960 instead. So we will leave listeners to discover the actual ins and outs of what happens then in your book. But, Josh, is there any closing. Thought you'd like to leave our listeners with. With this story?

[Josh Mensch]

I think we covered so much of it, we just hope that readers enjoy, you know, kind of opening the hood and looking at this era in a fresh way as much as we did. It was so interesting. It was fascinating, and we really enjoyed writing this one. I think it's a good moment to reexamine the Kennedy presidency right now. And it all just felt so vital and so interesting and there were so many themes that resonated with today, and we just were excited for. For readers to. To dig into this one.

[Friend 3]

I was just going to say, I do think, you know, every time we do these books, we have, yes, it's a great story to tell and it's an interesting story, but. But what we always want to ask is, why tell this story now? What, you know, history is not interesting just because a cool thing happened in the past. It's only interesting if it informs something today. And I do think when you look at what's being sold to us by our politicians, as you look at how we're being divided rather than united, and the benefits that come from doing such things, and what happens when you target groups of people and say those people, those people are the cause of your pain. That's what makes this story so vital today. And that's what makes JFK's story so vital today more than ever. In an odd way.

[Podcast Host]

That was Brad Meltzer and Josh Mensch. The JFK conspiracy, the secret plot to kill Kennedy and why it failed, is out now. Josh and Brad also joined us on the podcast previously to discuss another little known assassination attempt that could also have had major ripple effects a secret Nazi plot to kill Churchill, Stalin and roosevelt during the 1943 summit in Tehran. Check out the description of this episode episode to find a link to that conversation now. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.