Was Elizabeth Báthory really a serial killer?

Summary

HistoryExtra Podcast: Was Elizabeth Báthory really a serial killer?
Date: July 12, 2026 | Host: Isabel King | Guest: Shelley Puhak, author of "The Blood Countess"

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates the notorious legend of Elizabeth Báthory, the Hungarian countess accused of being history’s most prolific female serial killer—allegedly bathing in the blood of virgins and responsible for over 600 deaths. Host Isabel King and historian Shelley Puhak draw upon new research and historical context to dismantle Báthory's bloody reputation, examining the socio-political environment, biased sources, gender expectations, and how myths and propaganda shaped her infamy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Báthory Legend: Origins and Allegations

• Shelley Puhak summarizes the legend:

  “Elizabeth Bathory is the 17th century Hungarian countess and accused serial killer... has a reported body count of over 600. You may know her as the noblewoman who is said to have bathed in the blood of virgins.” (01:35)

• Accused in 1610 of witchcraft, cannibalism, murder, and torture, Bathory was said to run a finishing school for young noblewomen who would mysteriously vanish. The king supposedly ordered an investigation after noble families complained about their missing daughters.
• The legend claims Bathory was caught red-handed by investigators and placed in solitary confinement (01:35–02:49).

2. Challenging the Narrative: The Historical Record

• Puhak emphasizes the lack of universally impartial sources, relying instead on depositions, letters, and confessions from tortured servants:

  “…each of these has their own angle… we need to just be very transparent and open about what the motives and angles of the people creating these sources or this documentation might be.” (03:14)

• Most testimonies are rumors, not firsthand evidence, and many confessions were extracted under duress or torture.

3. Elizabeth’s Status and Socio-Political Context

• Bathory belonged to one of the most powerful aristocratic families, rivaling the Habsburgs and Medicis, with deep ties throughout Central Europe (04:18–05:14).
• While her influence as a wealthy widow was unusual, women sometimes held estates and seats in parliament during protracted wars with the Ottoman Empire (05:21).
• Hungary was fragmented: the Habsburgs controlled Royal Hungary, while Transylvania was a semi-autonomous principality (06:27).
• Elizabeth’s family split political loyalties exacerbated suspicions against her (08:17–08:52).

4. Rebellion, Propaganda, and the Spread of Rumors

• The Bathorys' connections to both sides in the Boxai Rebellion—for and against the Habsburgs—fuelled mistrust, and Elizabeth was pressured to declare loyalty (09:02–10:06).
• A specific incident with a German servant, involving a “log baby,” illustrates how cultural and political tensions became personalized and then distorted into stories of cruelty (10:13–12:49).

5. The “Investigation” by George Turzo

• George Turzo, described as “new money” and politically ambitious, instigated the investigation without royal mandate, possibly to remove a rival and curry favor with the Habsburgs (16:14).
• Turzo sent notaries to collect depositions, but gathered little direct evidence—mainly local rumors (18:31).

6. The Red-Handed Arrest: A Convenient Fiction

• The famous story of Turzo catching Bathory in the act does not survive scrutiny:

  “…it’s very convenient, sort of after the fact editing of events, to say, well, I was allowed to go in there because I saw this thing on the doorstep and that’s why I had to go in.” (19:44)

• Turzo’s own correspondence fails to mention a dramatic arrest; details only appear in later retellings (18:44–20:48).

7. Interrogation and Evidence under Torture

• Bathory’s servants gave wildly inconsistent confessions under torture. They could not provide victim names or details, only vague descriptions such as “the tall girl” or “a girl from the Slovak border region.”
• This treatment was not standard for murder cases at that time, which usually documented specifics (21:08).

8. The Absence of a Fair Trial

• Elizabeth pleaded for trial, wrote many letters, and nearly gained bail, but the case never went to court (23:10–23:47).
• Imprisoned at Čachtice Castle, she was in house arrest, not “walled up” as legend claims; she had visitors and maintained correspondence (23:51).

9. Role of Gender and Superstition

• Gendered accusations were common: female relatives and associates accused of witchcraft; torture focused on extracting names of supposed female accomplices (25:12).
• Puhak observes:

  “It’s much easier to admit that she’s a witch… if she exerts any sort of political power, she’s doing so through supernatural means.” (25:12)

• Bathory’s reputation as a fierce advocate for women made her a target, and her anger was sensationalized as monstrous (27:01–29:16).

10. Witchcraft, Supernatural Food, and Mythical Details

• Testimonies included tales of enchanted pretzels with mirrors for spying and cakes intended to poison her political enemies (29:35). None were substantiated, and the king—alleged target of a poison cake—was never present at such a dinner.

11. Inflating the Victim Count

• Initial possible victims were six girls who died of illness; under torture, estimates ballooned to 50, then hundreds, then the mythical 600+, as rumors ran unchecked:

  “Then you have a servant girl who comes in and seems to like the attention and says she’s heard a rumor that it’s over 600 and for some reason that is the number that has stuck.” (31:53)

12. Aftermath: Punishment and Legacy

• Bathory died under house arrest. No mention of her supposed crimes appears in contemporary popular literature during the true crime craze—no illustrated pamphlets, little attention after her death.
• A century later, a local priest revives the story, adding the blood-bathing detail amid the rise of vampire lore (33:20–35:13).
• The Báthory family line swiftly died out; rivals benefitted by seizing their lands (36:50).

13. Modern Echoes: Dark Tourism and Historical Responsibility

• The legend continues to fuel dark tourism, but Puhak cautions:

  “…when we keep amplifying it, it’s like we’re doing their own work for them, you know, 400 years later.” (37:50)

• She urges historians to treat Bathory’s case as a warning, not mere entertainment:

  “The question becomes not just… were they riding on brooms or were they killing cows with spells… [but] how did it happen, and could it happen again?... and I would say yes, absolutely, and it still is.” (39:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Source Reliability:

  “We have quite a lot of sources, but… each of these has their own angle.” (03:14 – Puhak)

• On her powerful status:

  “[The Bathorys] are arriving to the Habsburgs, the Medicis… an incredibly influential family…” (04:18 – Puhak)

• On torture and confessions:

  “They can't get the names of any victims from these servants… they give very vague descriptions. Like the tall girl. Yes, we killed a tall girl.” (21:08 – Puhak)

• On gendered political attacks:

  “It’s very difficult to admit that a woman is your political rival. No one wants to admit that. So it’s much easier to admit that she’s a witch.” (25:12 – Puhak)

• On the roots of the 600 victims claim:

  “Then you have a servant girl… says she’s heard a rumor that it’s over 600 and for some reason that is the number that has stuck.” (31:53 – Puhak)

• On Bathory’s “punishment”:

  “…as far as we know, Elizabeth is under a glorified house arrest… she’s not completely cut off from the outside world.” (23:51 – Puhak)

• On the legend’s legacy:

  “I think it’s also really important to acknowledge it’s the fever dream of some religious fundamentalists and… political operatives. When we keep amplifying it, it’s like we’re doing their own work for them…” (37:50 – Puhak)

• On historical lessons:

  “How did it happen, and could it happen again?... and I would say yes, absolutely, and it still is.” (39:05 – Puhak)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Elizabeth Báthory legend & accusations – 01:35–02:49
• Assessing historical evidence and source bias – 03:14
• Political context & fragmentation of Hungary – 04:18–06:27
• Boxai Rebellion & family suspicions – 08:52–10:06
• Rumor-mongering: the log baby incident – 10:13–12:49
• Turzo’s investigation & motivations – 16:14–18:31
• Myth of Bathory caught “in the act” – 18:44–20:48
• Tortured confessions & lack of evidence – 21:08–22:44
• No trial, house arrest at Čachtice Castle – 23:47
• Gender, witchcraft accusations & political dispossession – 25:12–27:01; 36:50
• Witchcraft accoutrements: enchanted pretzels, cakes – 29:35–31:14
• Victim count inflation – 31:53
• Aftermath, forgotten, vampire legend emerges – 33:20–35:13
• Dark tourism & historical responsibility – 37:50–39:55

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Conclusion

Shelley Puhak’s research compellingly argues that Elizabeth Báthory was not the sadistic murderer of legend, but the victim of a politically motivated smear campaign, compounded by misogyny and superstition. The enduring myth, inflamed by salacious details and vampire lore, illustrates how easily the reputations of powerful women could be destroyed, and how such stories still shape culture and tourism today. Puhak calls for responsible storytelling: to ask not just “did she do it?” but “how did the myth emerge—and could such injustice happen again?”

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Further Reading:

• The Blood Countess: Murder, Betrayal and the Making of a Monster by Shelley Puhak

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Transcript

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[Isabel King]

Was Hungarian noblewoman Elizabeth Bathory really a serial killer who bathed in the blood of virgins in the late 16th and early 17th century? In this episode of the History Extra podcast, Shelley Puhak speaks to Isabel King about the lack of evidence surrounding Bathory's case and reveals the truth behind the grisly legend. Hello Shelley, thank you so much for joining us on the History Extra podcast. Today. We're here to discuss your book, the Blood Countess. But before we get into the depths of this history, can you give us a summary of the legend of Elizabeth Bathory and the allegations against her?

[Shelley Puhak]

Sure. So Elizabeth bathory is the 17th century Hungarian countess and accused serial killer. Has a reported body count of over 600. And you may know her as the noblewoman who is said to have bathed in the blood of virgins. So, quick snippet. In 1610, she's accused of witchcraft, attempting to assassinate the king and the prosecutor, cannibalism and torturing and murdering young girls. And the story goes something like this, that she's been running a finishing school on her estate where all of like, you know, young ladies kind of jockey for the opportunity to serve at her court. But what she's really doing is disposing of them. And finally, enough noble families complain that their daughters have been disappearing, that the king is forced to open an investigation. The prosecutor goes to investigate. He supposedly finds her in the act of murdering a girl, catches her red handed, and to spare her family the shame of a public trial, she's going to be walled up in a tower for the rest of her life. And she's gonna end up in the Guinness Book of World Records until very recently with the title of world's most prolific female serial killer.

[Isabel King]

But you argue that Elizabeth was not the serial killer that she has been made out to be, but instead was the victim of a complex campaign of disinformation. You do acknowledge at the start of your book that there were no universally acknowledged impartial sources of information at the time of the case. Did this make it difficult to reconstruct this period reliably? And how does it affect the way that we understand Elizabeth's case?

[Shelley Puhak]

That's a great question. And I think to answer it, I'll just mention some of the evidence that we do have. So we have five sets of depositions that are taken, testimony of people in the area. We have letters that are written by fundamentalist pastors from one another. We have the process, correspondence with his wife and the king, and we have some of Elizabeth's own letters, but mostly we have people talking about her. And then in addition to that, we have the confession of four servants that were given under extreme duress while they were being tortured. So I think it's important to go into this to acknowledge that we have quite a lot of sources, but in order to look at them holistically, we have to acknowledge that each of these has their own angle. And, and we need to just be very transparent and open about what the motives and angles of the people who are creating these sources or this documentation might be.

[Isabel King]

We'll get more into those kind of sources and testimonies and things later. But before we do, can you give us some socio political context for the period and how Bathory's family fits into it?

[Shelley Puhak]

Absolutely. So Elizabeth Bathory, at the time that she falls under suspicion, is one of the most prominent widows in the kingdom of Hungary. And the Bathory family is arriving to the Habsburgs, the Medicis. This is an incredibly well established aristocratic family. She is the niece of the King of Poland. She's been the cousin and then now the aunt of several, you know, princes of Transylvania. She's related to Roman Catholic cardinals. So this is an incredibly influential family, you know, that wields quite a lot of power throughout not just Central Europe, but all of Europe. And at the time that Elizabeth's story starts, she's an incredibly wealthy widow trying to manage estates that border what is now between modern day Austria and Hungary, but also has estates that sort of arc all the way across Central Europe.

[Isabel King]

So she was a woman with immense power. Was this unusual for the time, or were there other women who held these positions?

[Shelley Puhak]

So it's not incredibly common but it's not entirely unusual. Some important context is that Hungary has been at war with the Ottoman Empire. Most of Europe has been for quite some time. So they are considered like the last bastion of Christianity against the infidel threat. But what that means is that most of the men have been away campaigning for quite some time. So even women who are not widows have gotten used to taking command of the estates, running family businesses. We have women who are acting as printers, for example, or bakers. And so we don't have as many aristocratic women wielding the amount of power that Elizabeth does. But it's not unheard of. When she becomes a widow, for example, she's going to take on her husband's seat in parliament. And there are two other women who are also doing that. So why it's not the majority. It's not unheard of for the time.

[Isabel King]

You mentioned before that the Bathory family were rivaling the Habsburgs and the Medicis. What were their connection to the Habsburgs and how did that shape the environment that Elizabeth was living in?

[Shelley Puhak]

Great question. So right now, Hungary has been split into three. I think it's important maybe to take a step back and mention, like, the sort of power that the Kingdom of Hungary had at one point in time. They were considered the shining star of Europe and they were the first place north of the Alps that the Renaissance spread. Hungary is the first place to secure printing presses, right before England or before the Netherlands or any other places that we typically think of them spreading. And they're just really kind of the center point of trade and of innovation. But since they've been invaded by the Turks, they've lost a third of their lands to the Ottomans in the south. And then the rest of the kingdom has been divided into Royal Hungary and Transylvania. And Royal Hungary is being occupied and administered by the Habsburgs, whereas in the east, Transylvania is being run as a principality with a Hungarian leader. And so we have this tension between the native Hungarians and the Hungarian aristocracy. And the Habsburgs that have come in and the Habsburgs claim to kind of keep themselves in power is we're all that's standing between you and the Ottoman Turk threat. So you need us to protect you. But there's also this upswell of, we might say, kind of like patriotic supporter people who say, we want a Hungarian leader, we to restore the prominence of the Hungarian aristocracy. So there's a lot of tension right now between the Habsburgs, which are seen as this foreign German force, and the Hungarian aristocracy, which is trying to guard its privileges and its power and position.

[Isabel King]

And where did Elizabeth Bathory sit within all of this? She was herself a Hungarian aristocrat, but her family did back the Habsburg contender for the throne at one point. Where does she sit when she starts to be accused?

[Shelley Puhak]

So what's so fascinating is the Bathorys are such a sprawling and influential family that she has family members on both sides of this divide. Her husband has backed the Habsburg candidate, but she has quite a lot of other family who have backed the Hungarian and the Transylvanians. At the moment, she has been declaring her loyalty to the Habsburg emperor, but she's under suspicion because a lot of her family members are part of the resistance to the Habsburgs. So, you know, she's variously accused of treason or under suspicion for quite a lot of her adult life.

[Isabel King]

Now, a large part of this resistance was the Box Eye Rebellion. How did this rebellion play into suspicions around the Bathory family and Elizabeth in particular?

[Shelley Puhak]

So this rebellion is going to be an uprising of Hungarian aristocrats against the Habsburgs, and they're going to be sweeping west into Habsburg territory. And really, they are, you know, incredibly successful, if we want to look at rebellions. And they managed to get quite a lot of concessions from the Habsburgs, but there's absolute terror that this is going to be the end of Habsburg rule in royal Hungary. And first of all, like Elizabeth is related to the rebel leader through ties of kinship. And then she has her brother, who's the chief justice of Hungary, siding with the rebels, which is huge. And people demand over and over that she declare, you know, which side are you on? And she keeps trying to declare that she's neutral, but she has generals under threat of force who are sacking some of her estates, setting them fire, demanding that she come right out and say, and even when she says, I am siding with the Habsburgs, you know, I'm not going to join the rebellion. No one believes her, particularly as more and more members of her family joined with the rebels.

[Isabel King]

So there's all these suspicions around her. How does this become rumors of her being a murderer?

[Shelley Puhak]

So there's this propaganda campaign. The Hungarian nobility has quite a lot of sympathy among other aristocrats in Europe because they're saying, look, we have this foreign crown that's impeding on our ancestral rights. And also they've said, we have been guaranteed certain rights of due process, and Habsburgs are not honoring this. And so they have been appealing to all of Europe to say, you know, what we're doing is right in the eyes of God. It is morally justified. And so, you know, the Habsburgs launch their own propaganda campaign and start saying, it's not us who are oppressing the Hungarians, it's the Hungarians who are oppressing the Germans. And in this very kind of heated environment, we have a situation where Elizabeth has a German servant named Ms. Bodolf who says that she can't participate in serving dinner. And at the time it was customary for only unmarried young girls to serve at the ladies table. And apparently Elizabeth is short staffed and so she is calling other people into service. And Ms. Modal says, I can't serve. I have a young son, you know, and talks about her responsibilities to her baby. So this is a political act, right? We have a German servant who's saying, I'm not going to participate in these, you know, in these festivities. And so the story goes that one of the creative public humiliations is that Elizabeth says, well, if you're so busy with this baby, she gives her a log baby and commands her to walk around nursing this log right in front of everyone to sort of showcase, this has been a defiant servant. This is what will happen to you if you're defiant to me. Although we don't quite know if the log baby is true. At the same time, we have so many log baby stories in folklore familiar with the story of Pinocchio, but there are a lot of other stories that are circulating at the time about childless couples who take a log and they nurse it and they carry it until it becomes a real live boy. So we don't know if that punishment is inspired or influenced by this folklore or if it's just something that gets kind of added into the story. But these stories quickly spiral out of control. And we'll see versions of the story later that Elizabeth has murdered the servant and then she has cannibalized the servant and she has subjected her to all kinds of, like, horrific torture. And each story is kind of bigger and more fantastical than the last one. But it seems to start with this tension between this German pro Habsburg camp and the Hungarian nobility.

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[Shelley Puhak]

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[Isabel King]

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[Isabel King]

So all of these accusations were built on rumor, essentially. Who was George Turzo and how did he start investigating Elizabeth for these crimes?

[Shelley Puhak]

So George Turzo is, we call a new money, relatively recent entry into the aristocracy. And prior to this, he's actually been very envious of Elizabeth and really wanted to, I guess, gain entry into her social circle. He has his wife, like, chasing after her and wanting her to invite her to dinner. And he's very excited when he is included in some of the social events. But as time goes on, George Turzo is determined to rise and he manages to do so. And he's number two in all of royal Hungary. So he's essentially the position of he's Palatine, but we would say that that's equivalent to, like a royal governor of sorts. And so he is responsible for enacting the King's law in royal Hungary. And he's also at odds with Elizabeth's nephew, who happens to be the Prince of Transylvania. So Elizabeth is a political enemy, or we might say a political pawn at this point in time. And it's also someone who. He's a strict Lutheran. He's suspicious some of Elizabeth's religious leanings. So there are also kind of rumors that she's not the right kind of Christian or she's not exactly faithful. And George Turzo, at the same time that he's launching political assassination attempts against other members of Elizabeth's family, he's also going to launch this investigation into Elizabeth and he's going to say that he has been given permission to do so by the king, although that's not true. And we know from all the documentation that that hasn't happened. He's the one initiat initiating it. It's not coming from the Habsburgs, but he's initiating this investigation. And he says it's because he's heard numerous rumors that she has tortured and killed young girls at the finishing school on her estate. He sent two notaries out in two areas and said, collect depositions. At this point, it looks like it's a bit of a fishing expedition. He has two rounds of depositions around two major estates that Elizabeth owns, and they're underwhelming at first, so there's not a lot of evidence or any evidence at all that Elizabeth is committing crimes. But what he is able to gather is some evidence that there may be rumors that people agree. I have heard a rumor.

[Isabel King]

He famously claimed to have caught Bathory in the act of torture. But you state that firsthand evidence contradicted this. Why do you think this dramatic moment has endured despite its shaky foundations?

[Shelley Puhak]

Well, first, it's kind of great fun, right? I mean, to imagine this happening. But when you really look at it, I mean, it's completely improbable. First, we have evidence of George Turzo writing to his wife the night of his arrest of Elizabeth Bathory. He mentions nothing about this and he mentions all sorts of other banal details. So you think if you had just caught a woman in the act of murdering or torturing someone, it might come up, but it does not. This is something that we see emerge in the literature much later. But the other thing that we have to keep in mind is that Elizabeth Bathory, this is the dead of winter, it's December 29th, there are snow drifts on the ground, the weather's terrible, it's night, just past 7pm, and he happens to be in her neck of the woods, 50 miles from his home with his private army. And what he's going to say is that he's riding by and he happens to see see a body in the doorway of her manor home, and that's what gives him permission to enter. And if we just think about the amount of coincidences that that would require, the stars would really have to align, that you would happen to be 50 miles from your home after the holidays at nighttime and happen to view this dead body. And then we also have to wonder about a serial killer who's just leaving bodies at the entrance of their manor home when they have 42 other rooms in which to hide or displ. So it is curious. It is convenient, though, because if you were to enter a noble tome without probable cause, you yourself have committed a crime. So George Turso is going to go into Elizabeth's home without any sort of warrant or following the due process of the kingdom. And this claim that he caught her red handed is what gives him cause to have done so. So it's very convenient, sort of after the fact editing of events, to say, well, I was allowed to go in there because I saw this thing on the doorstep and that's why I had to go in.

[Isabel King]

Yeah, he's really doing a workaround there to cover his own back, isn't he? So we can see from everything you've just said that this was highly improbable to be true. But what evidence was used against Bathory? You mentioned earlier that some of her servants faced torture and confessed under duress. What kind of information came out of this?

[Shelley Puhak]

They do confess but what is fascinating is the confessions don't even agree. So they can't get the names of any victims from these servants, but they will agree. Yes, I guess I did participate in something. Something did happen. But when you read through the testimonies, it's very curious that they can't really nail down victims. And when they are forced to, they give very vague descriptions. Like the tall girl. Yes, we killed a tall girl. We killed a girl from the Slovak border region. They don't agree how many have been killed, in what manner they were killed, when they were killed, where the bodies might be. So all we have are three old women and one teenage boy under extreme and excruciating torture. Say, yes, I guess we have participated in murder and we've done ungodly things. But they have a lot of difficulty describing how these things happen, who they happen to, what they did with the bodies, where and when. And I guess even when I first approached this, I had kind of this assumption. I think a lot of people do like, well, records just, you know, there wasn't that sort of record keeping or this was typical for the era. But when you look at other court cases in comparison to that, from right around the same time, it becomes clear that this is really an aberration. Like this is not typical that usually, particularly in murder cases, people are questioned as to, you know, specific day and time, a specific name of the murder victim, how was the murder, all the things that we might, you know, expect in a more contemporary courtroom.

[Isabel King]

So there's suggestion there that they went in already knowing what they wanted to get out of them, and then recorded it to make it fit.

[Shelley Puhak]

Yeah, we even have some documentation where we have one pastor writing saying, this is what the servants need to be made to confess ahead of time. It's a letter that's delivered before they're tortured, which is unusual and I guess you could say highly suggestive as an aristocrat.

[Isabel King]

Did Elizabeth escape this torture?

[Shelley Puhak]

She did.

[Isabel King]

But did she face any sort of trial?

[Shelley Puhak]

She advocated the entire time she was under arrest for trial and was on a really extensive letter writing campaign. There were complaints that she was writing so many letters and trying to summon different people and she really believed she would have her day in court. And it does appear from the documentation that there was a point where she almost was released. There was a debate as to whether she should be released on bail to face the charges against her. So there was preparation for a trial, but the trial ultimately was never held.

[Isabel King]

And where was she imprisoned during this time to supposedly Keep other people safe.

[Shelley Puhak]

So she was in Chakica Castle, which is in northwestern Slovakia today. It's the castle that's most associated with her legend, but it was a holiday home, so this wasn't her primary residence for most of her life. As for the idea that she is walled into a tower, that's kind of borrowed from the unfortunate fate of another woman, Anna of Saxony, who's like walled in with just this little slit for food. But as far as we know, Elizabeth is under a glorified house arrest. She's certainly in a castle. She's walled in, she can't leave the premises. But this is an active working castle, so she's not alone. There are other people, servants, soldiers, you know, drilling in the yard. And she seems to have been able to entertain guests and to send letters. So she's not completely cut off from the outside world.

[Isabel King]

A rather comfortable punishment. So I wanted to just talk a little bit more about the role of gender and superstition and how they intersect in shaping accusations like those put to Elizabeth. We've discussed the torture of her servants, three of which obviously were women. And Elizabeth herself being a powerful woman in the spotlight. You mention in the book that she was also not the only Bathory family member to face such accusations. How do you think gender really played into these accusations and society's perception of women?

[Shelley Puhak]

Yeah, I mean, so many women around Elizabeth are going to be accused of witchcraft and similar crimes. Her aunt, she's also her mother in law, she's gonna have two cousins and a niece. So it's a lot of women, as well as two associates of hers who are commoners. And there's this sense too, that when women are accused of witchcraft, they're not acting alone. Right. Because they wouldn't be smart enough to do so. But this idea that there has to be a group of women. So one thing that, you know, inquisitors and investigators are always looking for, you know, who are your accomplices. So that's something that they're very interested in determining. But I also think when we look at the accusations against Elizabeth and against the rest of her family members, we have to see how they dealt with the male members of her family, which was battle or assassination. And then all of the women are subjected to these similar accusations because you can't get rid of a woman in the same way as you can get rid of a male. And it's very difficult to admit that a woman is your political rival. No one wants to admit that. So it's much easier to admit that she's a witch. And if that, you know, if she exerts any sort of political power, she's doing so through supernatural means. We see this with a lot of the English queens as well. I'm just thinking not just of Anne Boleyn, but of Jacquetta Woodville or Elizabeth Woodville. These accusations that if you are a prominent political woman, you're a political advisor, that we can't just deal with you the way we would deal with a man. We can't challenge you to a duel, we can't dispose of you on a battlefield, so we have to accuse you of something else. So we either have to cast aspersions on your virtue or we have to claim that you are a witch.

[Isabel King]

And do you think these are gender tensions is what made these stories and accusations of witchcraft so easy for contemporaries to believe?

[Shelley Puhak]

I do. And I also think. I mean, it's fascinating because Elizabeth Bathory's story is going to be used not just by priests, but by social scientists to sort of, like, illustrate what womanhood is, what women are capable of. They're gonna use her for, like, kind of the emerging field of psychiatry in the 1700s to talk about, well, women can murder, but when they do, it's, you know, they do it this way. And she also becomes, I think, a really convenient way to, let's say, caricature female anger. You know, she was not a shrinking violet. She was a defiant woman. One of my favorite, I guess, bits of Elizabeth's letter is when she tells a noble that has tried to take some of her lands, like, I won't be silent about this. I will have your house torn down around your head. And she issues all kinds of threats, you know, that are the equivalent of. Of, don't you dare mess with me. So she's an angry woman, which is very scary. And she harnesses that anger in the service of a lot of other women, which is also very scary. And it wasn't just for other aristocrats and women in her family, which we could say would be kind of typical, you know, banding together to help a kinswoman. But for commoners who came to her for help, there's this one great instance, for example. I could give you several. But one instance that comes to mind is there's a foster mother in the village who works as a healer, and she's not, you know, is not a wealthy woman. But Elizabeth respects her and calls her a woman scientist because of her healing abilities and reputation. But this woman is being threatened because her adopted daughter has gotten into some sort of extramarital situation. We don't know if it was consensual or not, with a village man who's now threatening to burn down her house and to destroy her, and has been threatening her. And there seems to be a threatening stalking case going on, and Elizabeth intervenes immediately. And this is who the women go to when they're in these sorts of situations to advocate for them. And they discuss, when they appeal to her, they know her reputation, her reputation precedes her, and that she's known to advocate for women's rights. So I do think that part of the punishment is this is what we do with angry women, or we don't know what to do with female rage. So we have to channel it into some sort of spectacle.

[Isabel King]

So, taking it back a little bit again to witchcraft, I just thought we should talk a little bit more about the rumors that circulated in relation to witchcraft accusations. I recall there being something about enchanted cakes and other kind of little things like that around these murders. Could you tell me a little bit more about these?

[Shelley Puhak]

Absolutely. And it's so fascinating how, like, foodstuffs are intertwined with witchcraft. So I think one of the funnest accusations is that she has this supernatural pretzel that she's put a little mirror in, and she uses that to spy on people. And that's how she knows what her enemies are doing, because she can spy on them with her supernatural pretzel, but also cakes. So supposedly they've accused other Bathory family members of trying to assassinate the Habsburgs or, you know, the Habs, Habsburg's allies. But of course, a woman wouldn't do that. So what they've accused her of is baking these supernatural cakes with this bath water and trying to feed them to George Turzo and the King and some other men, and then chickening out after one of the cakes seems to only half do the job, and then not making the second cake. But there are a lot of enchanted cakes as well as, you know, there's some. And there's something to do with the blood of a cat. But the cakes are really fascinating. And I think it's even more fascinating that people are testifying about these cakes that they ate when we can decisively prove that the King was never at her residence for this dinner, because the Habsburgs kept a very detailed social schedule, so we know where they were at all times. But they really believed that she had these enchanted cakes and she was inviting people over and this is how she was going to do away with her enemies.

[Isabel King]

Was there any suggestion that she was using these cakes to kill her servant girl victims or the daughters of nobles? Or was it just towards her enemies to prevent them from finding out that she was a murderer?

[Shelley Puhak]

Yeah, just to her political enemies. So, yep, just the poison cakes for the men. Like the girls got, you know, apparently, like beaten and they died in, you know, just horrific, bloody ways. But the men just had the cakes and a little tummy ache.

[Isabel King]

So there was all these accusations flying around. There was a lot of rumour of witchcraft. People couldn't prove any of this. How did the victim count get so high? Because even if people could believe in the first instance that she may have harmed servants by flogging them and maybe killing them, how do we get into the many hundreds? That's quite a jump.

[Shelley Puhak]

It is, and it's fascinating to trace. If you go back to the roots of it, it seems that there are six girls that potentially could have been victims. Although in those six cases, we have a name, we have a family. The family members don't seem to think they were murdered. There's reliable suggestions that the girls were ill before they died. So we could, though, theoretically, have this body count of six. Right. Like, maybe there are six girls. But what happens is under torture, you know, first we have there's a couple, then that number kind of goes as high as 50. Then, though, there seems to be a pastor that's saying, well, it's hundreds. And of course, if he says it's hundreds, then you have to make the testimony fit what he's saying, because this is a man of God and he would not lie and his, you know, word is infallible. And then people seem to be outdoing one another. You know, when you hear this rumor of like, well, I heard that she had two husbands. Well, I heard she had five husbands. Well, I heard she Had 12 husbands. So we sort of follow a similar pattern where it's, I heard there were, you know, six, I heard there were 10, I heard there were 30. Then we get to 50, then we're at 100, then we're at several hundred, and then we have a servant girl who comes in and seems to like the attention and says she's heard a rumor that it's over 600 and for some reason that is the number that has stuck.

[Isabel King]

It's the rumor mill going really wild, isn't it? So who contributed to Elizabeth's final downfall and how was she punished beyond her house arrest?

[Shelley Puhak]

So she's going to die while under house Arrest, which is unfortunate because we don't know what happens next. A lot of times when we have aristocrats who are imprisoned with these sort of fantastical charges, they're sometimes pardoned, sometimes they're allowed to kind of clear their name with an oath of innocence. So we don't know, you know, she. Whether even she would have one day had her trial, like, how this would have turned out. And about 100 years after her death, we have this village priest who kind of uncovers some of these trial documents. I think it's important to mention that after Elizabeth's death, no one speaks of this. Right. She's going to die, presumably of illness or chronic disease while under house arrest. And we have such. This, like, burgeoning true crime industry where people are making tons of money with these, like, illustrated broadsides of serial killers. There are supposed to be serial killers everywhere. There are women who are serial killing like babies. There are midwives doing it. There are men doing it in the German lands. So this is a big seller, but no one speaks of it. No one mentions it. It's really, really curious. But about 100 years later, we have this priest who's writing, we might say, a kind of legends and lore travel guide of the area. And he includes the story in his book, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna share some salacious details with you all. And he adds in this little tidbit about her bathing in the blood of virgins. And this is a time when the vampire panic is circulating, so people are a little bit bored of witches. They've pretty much decimated the villages and killed as many people as they can. But vampires are the new thing. So there's no mention of Elizabeth as a witch or any of the ties to witchcraft. But he does throw in this vampire detail, and that's something that everybody sort of has latched onto and has really become part of the canonical legend.

[Isabel King]

Do you think that is why Bathory has become a fixture of true crime and vampire lore even today, rather than a case study in political character assassination?

[Shelley Puhak]

Yes, and I think there's two other factors that don't get talked about very often. One of those is her family dies out. So there's no one to maintain the family archive. There's no one to sort of advocate. If we look at other kind of victims of witch hunts, or if we look, for example, in, like, Salem, Massachusetts, what we have are surviving family members, even if it's much later going back and advocating for justice. And what we also have is, you know her rivals. Those families are holding power. One of the families that helps Samir Elizabeth Bathory, is going to be ruling well into the 20th century. We even have one of them as Prime Minister of Hungary in the 1930s. So I think that we have this combination of this really salacious legend that kind of plays upon a lot of our fears. We don't have any surviving family members to sort of advocate for clearing their name. Now, I'm not suggesting there's any sort of, like, conspiracy by these families to hide the truth, but I just think there's no incentive. Like, why would you spend time, invest time in clearing the reputation of a family that died out 400 years ago that was an enemy of your family and might make one of your ancestors look bad?

[Isabel King]

So you said there that the Bathory family died out. But what happened in the immediate aftermath of this, after Elizabeth's death? What happened with her other family members? Were they still impacted by these accusations, or did it completely just kind of go away?

[Shelley Puhak]

No, I mean, this seems part and parcel of a larger action against the whole family. So Elizabeth is going to die shortly after one of her imprisoned male cousins will, and after her nephew, the Prince of Transylvania, is assassinated. And then she's going to have three female relatives go on trial for witchcraft and incest. They're going to go on trial, and she's going to have a niece who goes on trial three times and is tortured, despite her aristocratic privilege, to force her to confess that she is a witch. But the ultimate result of that is the Bathory family land, most of it, which was in the hands of women, is going to be turned over to her enemies. Because each time you have a conviction or an accusation, you know that land is seized.

[Isabel King]

Absolutely. So, finally, we've discussed a little bit about Bathory's legacy into the modern day, but how do you think it plays into dark tourism and this persistent story of her being a monster, not a woman?

[Shelley Puhak]

Yeah, it's really weird, and I can see kind of both sides of it. But on the one hand, you know, we're commemorating, you know, political prisoners and victims of religious persecutions like witches and werewolves, you know, with our. With our Halloween costumes and make light of their horrific deaths. So it's a really interesting impulse, and I think if I were a social scientist, you know, I'd want to investigate it more. So, on the one hand, I see the appeal of the legend, you know, but I think it's also really important to acknowledge it's like the fever dream of some religious fundamentalists. And kind of political operatives. And so when we keep amplifying it, it's like we're doing their own work for them, you know, 400 years later. But yeah, you can go on tours of whether it's Bratislava, Vienna, Budapest, and hear Elizabeth Bathory, the canonical legend of the blood bathing and serial killing countess, and sort of like revel in her deeds and make light of them and laugh at her. And so it's, you know, very curious indeed.

[Isabel King]

There's obviously been some progress made with historians such as yourself unveiling the truth behind these legends. But how would you want historians to responsibly present Bathory's story to modern day audiences?

[Shelley Puhak]

So I kind of look to the Salem witch trials here in the States as an example. Right. Where we've had the victims exonerated or pardoned sort of publicly. We still have tourism. But, you know, the question becomes not just like reveling in, you know, were they riding on brooms, you know, or were they, you know, killing cows with spells where we asked the question, how did it happen? And I think buried in that question is the shadow question of could it happen again? And I think in the case of Elizabeth Bathory asking those two questions, you know, how did it happen and could it happen again? And I would say yes, absolutely, and it still is. It can be really instructive to use this as not just like a historical curiosity, you know, but as a modern day warning.

[Isabel King]

Absolutely, I agree. It could definitely happen again. And it's good to be aware of things like that and learn from history's mistakes. Thank you so much for joining me today. This has been fascinating and it's been really good to unveil the truth behind Elizabeth Bathory.

[Shelley Puhak]

Thanks so much for having me, Isabelle. This was a delight.

[Isabel King]

That was Shelley Puhak speaking to Isabel King. Shelley's new book, which delves deeper into Elizabeth Bathory's story is the Blood Murder, Betrayal and the Making of a Monster.

[Shelley Puhak]

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