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History That Doesn't Suck
166: A Conversation on Negro Leagues Baseball History with Bob Kendrick
00:52:58
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- [00:01]
Greg Jackson
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- [00:54]
Riley Neubauer
Available November 20, 2024. Game catalog varies by region and over time.
- [00:58]
Greg Jackson
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Riley Neubauer
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Greg Jackson
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- [01:18]
Riley Neubauer
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- [01:20]
Greg Jackson
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- [01:22]
Riley Neubauer
You know, technically they're a form of self care.
- [01:25]
Greg Jackson
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- [01:51]
Riley Neubauer
Hello my friends and welcome to a bonus episode of History that Doesn't Suck. We're following up on our golden age of sports, the last narrative episode being 165 and this is just in time for the start of the postseason of baseball.
- [02:03]
Bob Kendrick
Well, the 2024 postseason baseball for all of you listening out there in the.
- [02:07]
Riley Neubauer
Future, yes, thank you. It is important to timestamp this episode for listeners and acknowledge we're talking about the US because baseball, just like this podcast, is a timeless international pastime.
- [02:18]
Bob Kendrick
I see what you did there.
- [02:19]
Riley Neubauer
Well, thank you and a shout out here for everyone. To all our domestic and Internet international listeners, the voice you just heard is Riley Neubauer, one of the hardworking writer researchers here at htds. It's great to have her co hosting with me today because admittedly, as much as it hurts me to admit, in fact, Riley does in fact know perhaps love baseball even more than I do. Though I grew up rooting for the Dodgers, still care for the Dodgers, but developed a deep and abiding love for the Red Sox while living in Boston a little while back, you gotta be.
- [02:51]
Bob Kendrick
Careful with that Red Sox one.
- [02:53]
Riley Neubauer
Well, forgive me, New Yorker you just got to deal with.
- [02:55]
Bob Kendrick
Well, I will say, even though I am a New Yorker, I am a Philadelphia Phillies fan. I'm sorry, New Yorkers also.
- [03:02]
Riley Neubauer
You're the one who's got to be careful then. Riley, you've admitted this now publicly. I knew there was a reason I liked you though, New Yorker who has turned her back on the pinstripes now that I've upset everyone in the New York area. We'll move on from that digression. Point being today, Riley and I are pleased to share an interview with Bob Kendrick, who is the President of the Negro League's Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri. Founded in 1990, the NLBM is the world's only museum dedicated to preserving and celebrating the rich history of African American baseball and its profound impact on the social advancement of America. Bob has been associated with the museum in one way or another since its founding. He was first a volunteer during his 10 year newspaper career with the Kansas City Star. Today he's the president, and while he doesn't fashion himself to be a historian, Bob has become one of the leading authorities on the topic of Negro League's baseball history. This was my first time meeting Bob virtually, that is. I do hope to meet him in person though and visit the museum when our live show heads out to his area in October 2024.
- [04:03]
Bob Kendrick
I like the way you're getting that plug in there.
- [04:05]
Riley Neubauer
Well, thank you. And our producer would not be happy with me if I didn't.
- [04:08]
Bob Kendrick
So then I should tell listeners that tour dates and ticket information for the History that Doesn't Suck Live show is available in the episode notes and also@htdspodcast.com.
- [04:21]
Riley Neubauer
Tour you should, Riley, and it's almost like we planned on you doing that. So yes, htdspodcast.com tor for new live show tour dates. But again, enough with the digressions. Riley, you have met Bob in person. Why don't you go ahead and tell everyone how that went down?
- [04:36]
Bob Kendrick
Of course, I met Bob back in 2015 when I was a kid reporter for Sports Illustrated Kids and I was traveling to Kansas City with my dad to cover a postseason baseball game and to visit the nlbm. And I received a wonderful tour of the museum by a former museum curator and I got to meet Bob, who as we will all hear later on, is a fantastic storyteller. And he and I walked around what might be one of my favorite museum exhibits of all time, which is a mock infield set up with Life sized statues of famous Negro leagues baseball players. And Bob had so many incredible tidbits and stories about the players that I hadn't seen in any of my research kind of coming up to the museum. And I was so grateful and am so grateful that he took the time to meet with a young female sports reporter and that I'm so honored that he's coming back to speak with us today. And today is the perfect time to present this history of the Negro Leagues because this year Major League baseball has finally incorporated the Statistics of over 2000 Negro leagues players from 1920 to 1948 into the official record books. And the statistics are now a permanent part of American professional baseball history, which is incredibly exciting.
- [05:57]
Riley Neubauer
It is. And let's get on to this conversation. Riley and I are pleased to bring you our informative chit chat with Mr. Bob Kendrick. Bob, it's a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you so much for making the time and joining Riley and I here. So diving on in, we know that in 1887 the main minor league, the International League, banned the signing of black players. And by the 1890s, black players were limited to exhibition games on all black teams in the barnstorming circuit. What do you think it meant for the country as a whole to shift from integrated baseball to segregated play?
- [06:34]
Greg Jackson
Well, it was a sign of the times, you know, segregation was becoming even more prevalent than it had been and it was affecting our so called national pastime. And so as you alluded, Greg, there were black professional baseball players who had made their way onto what would be considered white professional baseball teams, but they just simply could not stick and stay. Here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, we tell the story of Moses Fleetwood Walker, who was one of those early African American pioneers who played in what would be considered a major league as early as 1883. Moses Fleetwood Walker was a bare handed catcher. Yeah, it didn't last long before guys like Adrian. Cap Anson.
- [07:23]
Bob Kendrick
Cap Anson, who was a white player.
- [07:25]
Greg Jackson
And others would form, quote unquote, a gentleman's agreement that would ban blacks from playing on what would be considered white major league baseball teams. That ban was upheld for six decades before Jackie Robinson would re break essentially the color barrier. But the thing that strikes me is that there was no written doctrine of any kind. This was just a verbalized agreement that essentially said if you allow a black to play with you, you can't play with us. Well, Cap Anson, who kind of initiated this, well, he was one heck of a baseball player. He was an outstanding ballplayer. He is in the National Baseball hall of Fame. And as you can well imagine, there were a coalition of followers who shared that same sentiment because it was pretty easy for him to build that coalition of followers. And then that would ban blacks for the next six decades until Jackie Robinson again re breaks the color barrier.
- [08:27]
Riley Neubauer
As you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, our regular HTS listeners, they are undoubtedly connecting the dots. As you said, the era, they're thinking through the Jim Crow laws. Right. The black codes that are spreading across the country, all the holes that are just being punched through the Reconstruction Amendments and federal legislation building us to Plessy v. Ferguson and doing that separate but equal. I have to say, it's baffling to imagine without documentation, these other things they did with legislation. Right?
- [08:55]
Greg Jackson
Yes.
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Riley Neubauer
Yeah. And so this is all just verbal.
- [08:58]
Greg Jackson
It was just verbal. And again, they upheld this for six decades, even as the movement was being made for integration. And of course, when we get to World War II and we're now coming out of World War II, and as I oftentimes remind my visitors here at the NIC Leagues Baseball Museum, if you were going to point to one single event that helped usher in integration in Major League Baseball, it would have been World War II. Because you have the irony of young black soldiers dying, fighting essentially the same racism in another country that we were being asked to accept here at home. And I think that started the groundswell of sentiment that essentially said, if they can die fighting for their country, why can't they play baseball in this country? And I guess you could say that that would give Branch Rickey, again, pun intended, the ammunition to go try and bring Jackie Robinson into the major Leagues. But when you go back and you look at how integration played out, the Major League owners then would be quick to tell you that there was no rule governing blacks out of Major League Baseball if they could find the right one. Now, the way that they had looked at the right one was rather extremist. You know, the right one had to be of high moral standards. They had to be an upstanding citizen along with a great baseball player, had to be highly educated. There had to be everything that the majority of the Major League Baseball workforce wasn't.
- [10:40]
Riley Neubauer
Right.
- [10:41]
Greg Jackson
Yeah. And so that was their way of just trying to keep those black players out of Major League Baseball. And it took, really, the wit of Branch Rickey, who essentially outsmarted them, that would ultimately open up the door for the color barrier to fall in Major League Baseball.
- [11:03]
Riley Neubauer
You know, it strikes me the lack of documentation and that's of course, incredibly different from the way that the Jim Crow laws are working. And yet I'm seeing a parallel in that. In enforcing Jim Crow, so often police officers, state officials, they would always avoid actually charging black Americans under the Jim Crow law. Right. They'd charge them with vagrancy or some other way that wouldn't threaten that law, actually having to experience scrutiny in the court system. And that just comes to mind, as you're telling me, right, that on paper, oh, sure, sure, we'll allow black player.
- [11:40]
Greg Jackson
Yeah. But the reality is, and I think that's a very interesting parallel there, and I dare to think that there was some similarity, for sure, in terms of how this rule was being interpreted. But I think, for me, and I think this is certainly true, most folks who are racist don't want you to know that they're racist. They don't want you to know.
- [12:02]
Riley Neubauer
Right.
- [12:02]
Greg Jackson
And the major league owners didn't want to give the appearance that they were excluding anyone. They didn't want people to look at them and say, oh, they're racist, no. And so they could hide behind Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis, who was in some ways maybe even their fall guy, because he was doing what I think he thought they wanted him to do with this exclusionary practice that was put in place. But they didn't want to be seen in that light. And so they would. They would just say that kind of, you know, idiotic kind of statement. Well, you know, there's nothing that governs them out if we can find the right one. And you've got talent surrounding you around every corner with tremendous black baseball talent. And this notion that the athletes in the Negro leagues weren't smart enough to play in the major leagues, that was also very prevalent. And as I tell my guests, first and foremost, I don't know when you had to be a Rhodes scholar to play baseball, but there was this kind of underlying mindset that the players in the Negro leagues, as it was stated in a letter written by Larry MacPhail, lacked the faculties to play in the major leagues.
- [13:20]
Riley Neubauer
Wow.
- [13:21]
Greg Jackson
But here's the interesting twist to that story. Over 40% of the athletes that played in the Negro leagues had some level of college education. Less than 5% of those who played in the major leagues at the same time had any college education for the simple reason. Then the major leagues didn't want you to go to college. They got you right out of high school if you went to high school, put you into their farm system, and then you would eventually work your way to the big leagues, well, the Negro Leagues didn't have that kind of sophisticated farm system. So what did they do? They trained on the campuses of historically black colleges and universities. They would then play the black college baseball teams. And they recruited a great deal of their workforce from those HBCUs. So in actuality, they had a disproportionate number of college educated athletes in comparison to those who were playing in the major leagues at the same time. Jackie Robinson walked into a clubhouse, y'all, where he was likely the most intellectual being in that clubhouse, because, as you know, he had gone to Pasadena, City College and ucla. I'm not sure another Dodger had stepped foot on a college campus. And so none of that actually made any sense. And, you know, we kind of shed light on what was really driving this exclusion, particularly as it related to when the Negro Leagues became formalized. And now the Negro Leagues are actually making money for Major League Baseball. You know, as I tell my guests all the time, anytime they say it ain't about the money, it's always about the money. Always about the money. I go back to a letter that we acquired several years ago, and this was a significant acquisition. I can't remember what we paid, but we're probably still paying for it.
- [15:33]
Riley Neubauer
You know, one of those letters.
- [15:35]
Greg Jackson
Okay, yeah, no, it's hard for us to go out and buy the artifacts because the private collectors are basically gobbling them all up. They can control the market, they have unlimited wealth, and we have very limited budgets to go out and compete against them. But this piece was something that I knew we had to have, and I told my then curator that we needed to go get it. And this piece was a letter that I had referenced earlier that was written by Larry MacPhail. Larry MacPhail was then the managing partner of the New York Yankees. And this letter was written near the end of 1945. New York City Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, who.
- [16:16]
Bob Kendrick
Was in office both during the Great Depression and World War II, both topics.
- [16:20]
Riley Neubauer
We'Ll be covering shortly on HTDS.
- [16:22]
Greg Jackson
Same person at the airport is named for today. He and others were really pushing the charge for integration in Major League Baseball. And the mayor had put together a commission to examine integration. Larry MacPhail was on that commission, and he writes what was called the MacPhail memorandum. And as I mentioned, we acquired this letter several years ago. And what I find so intriguing about the letter is that throughout the body of the letter, MacPhail, who is outlining why integration is such a bad idea, he actually offers up some points of validity. For instance, he would say, if we sign Negro League players, we will put the Negro Leagues out of business. He's absolutely right. That was going to be the byproduct of integration. He would also go on to say, you know, we can't just go take their players away from them because they are bound by legal contract. Well, again, he's absolutely right. Now, Branch Ricky didn't think so. Branch Ricky didn't think that the contract in Negro Leagues were worth a piece of paper that they were written on. And contrary to popular belief, he did not sign Jackie Robinson to the Brooklyn Dodgers. Guys. He took Jackie Robinson away from the Kansas City Monarchs. He never paid the Kansas City Monarchs. As my mother would say. My late mother would say not one red cent for a ball player who was under contract. J.L. wilkinson never got compensated.
- [18:08]
Riley Neubauer
That is wild.
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Greg Jackson
Uh huh. Which is a whole nother story. In his own way.
- [18:12]
Riley Neubauer
Right.
- [18:14]
Greg Jackson
But then he made the outlandish statement that they lacked the faculties to play in that league, which of course we know was just hogwash.
- [18:23]
Riley Neubauer
Sure.
- [18:24]
Greg Jackson
But then he finally gets to the crux of the matter. By the time that letter was written in 1945, the New York Yankees had made nearly $100,000 off the Negro Leagues. They were renting Yankee Stadium, they were renting Rupert Stadium across the river in Newark, and they were renting Blues Stadium here in Kansas City. Their minor league affiliates, they were in no hurry to see integration because they did not want to lose that source of revenue. It is no small wonder that the Yankees were at the tail end of integration.
- [19:02]
Bob Kendrick
That's both fascinating and disappointing, especially as New Yorker.
- [19:06]
Riley Neubauer
Yes, and as you said, Bob, it's always about the money.
- [19:09]
Greg Jackson
Now you can make a legitimate argument that the Yankees didn't need a black player. They had good teams. Historically, they always had good teams. But $100,000 guys, is a lot of money today.
- [19:23]
Riley Neubauer
Right?
- [19:24]
Greg Jackson
But a hundred thousand dollars in 1945, that's a fortune. Exactly. And you didn't have to work for that money. All you had to do was sign on the dotted line. They were in no hurry to lose that source of revenue. And they weren't alone. Clark Griffith there in Washington D.C. he owned the Washington Senators. He was watching Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson tear up the ballpark there. And Leonard was ripping line drives all over the stadium, making dazzling plays at first base. Josh Gibson was hitting balls where no mere mortal had ever hit him. But on the flip side of the ledger, he was also watching all these black folks fill up his ballpark there at Griffith Stadium, they were out drawing the Washington Senators. And he was torn. He wanted to sign Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson well before Branch Rickey made the move to go get Jackie Robinson. Now, two things are in play here. Number one, he knows he's going to be ostracized by his peers. This was going to create a fight. And maybe the timing wasn't quite as right, because now we're in the early 1940s, and so we're still in the midst of World War II. And so the timing may not have been right, but the other thing that he's grappling against was what I said earlier. He's watching black folks fill up his ballpark, and he's getting a percentage of the gate and likely all of the concessions.
- [20:59]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah, he doesn't want to interrupt that flow. He's feeling great about that.
- [21:02]
Greg Jackson
No, you don't want to interrupt this. And that's why I say anytime they say it ain't about the money, it is. It's always about the money.
- [21:10]
Riley Neubauer
Wow. Okay. You know, I was thinking to myself and wanted to drill a little deeper on why integration would hold off more in baseball as opposed to other spaces. I think you just answered that question for me, though, Bob.
- [21:24]
Greg Jackson
You know what I find so interesting?
- [21:26]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah, go ahead.
- [21:26]
Greg Jackson
Is that Major League Baseball has really been the only one of the major sports that has always been challenged by its racist past. People forget the NFL and the NBA didn't let blacks play either. But baseball seems to be the one that has always been questioned about its racist past. But baseball has also led the way in basically acknowledging and honoring the Negro Leagues, the league that was created because of his racist past. And perhaps it's because baseball is considered still our national pastime, but the other sports have not had to address the fact that they were exclusionary in their own processes as well. Fritz Pollard becomes the first black to play in what would be considered the national football league in 1920, the same year that the Negro Leagues were being established here in Kansas City. Well, Fritz Pollard and several other brothers were exiled from the NFL the same way that Moses Fleetwood Walker was exiled from Major League Baseball. And then in 1946, Jackie Robinson's UCLA backfield teammate Kenny Washington would re break the color barrier in the National Football League.
- [22:50]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah, you know, I get two thoughts as you say that one, think spot on baseball being our national pastime, even if that's more of an emotional thing these days. Right. With how popular football has become in basketball. But baseball, it's still kind of the the sport that's the soul of America in some sort of way. It makes me wonder if baseball actually making any sort of effort to acknowledge that past. Ironically, the other sports get a pass by basically by ignoring it.
- [23:18]
Greg Jackson
I think so, yeah. I think there's some merit to that. Which again leads you to question They've never really had to address what took place in those leagues. Now, there's been some acknowledgement over recent times more trivial than nature, but baseball has always seemingly was held accountable for its sins. But baseball has also been the one that has more frequently addressed those issues. And you can see what has happened over recent times as they've paid recognition to the Negro Leagues, they came to grips with the errors of their ways. And this long overdue recognition that we've been seeing there as it relates to certain milestones in Negro League's history is something that none of the other sports have even remotely been asked to do. And you can't help but commend baseball for addressing and dealing and enlightening people along the way.
- [24:22]
Riley Neubauer
We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, Bob's going to tell us about how the Negro Leagues embodied the American spirit and led the way on the international stage. History that Doesn't Suck is sponsored by BetterHelp. One of the most haunting scream portrayals of the vampire legend is from the 1922 German silent film Nosferatu. We talked about this film in this year's Halloween special. Staring at the ghostly black and white image of the pointy eared gargoyle like Count Orlok still sends a shiver down the spine. While writing that episode, I was reminded of how fear is such a powerful emotion. Fear isn't just something we experience while watching a scary movie. There are a lot of things in life that can frighten us, but sometimes we've got to face and overcome our fear to move forward. That can be tough to do. And that's when therapy could help. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Overcome your fears with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com htds today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com htds hey history.
- [25:40]
D
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- [26:24]
Riley Neubauer
From Fort Sumter to the Battle of Gettysburg, from the Emancipation Proclamation to Appomattox Courthouse, from the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Compromise of 1877, from Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman to Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, the Civil War and Reconstruction was a pivotal era in American history. I'm Rich and I'm Tracy and we're the hosts of a podcast that takes a deep dive into that era when a war was fought to save the Union and to free the slaves, and when the work to rebuild the nation after that war was over turned into a struggle to guarantee liberty and justice for all Americans. Look for the Civil War and Reconstruction wherever you find your podcasts.
- [27:28]
Bob Kendrick
I just recently I was watching the Giants Cardinals game at Rick Wood Field and I saw you come on screen to do some of the interviews, talking about what it means to have the Negro Leagues and their legacy honored in such a way with a Major League Baseball game at Rickwood Field. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it was like to be in that environment and to be experiencing a Major League game in what used to be a Negro League stadium.
- [27:54]
Greg Jackson
I've been trying to summarize what that experience has been, and the one word that keeps coming back to me is magical. It was one of the most magical events, and particularly baseball events that I've ever been involved with. It was just an amazing experience. From the moment that I stepped on the premises there at Rick Woodfield, you felt like you had been transported back in time and I never got to experience a Negro Leagues game. But having heard so many folks talk about the excitement of what it was like to be at a Negro Leagues game, I could only imagine that we were very fortunate to capture that spirit there at Rick Wood Field, and I commend my friends over at Major League Baseball and the City of Birmingham for what they were able to do. And it was just a tremendously proud moment. I think not Just for me. But our staff here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum and all of those who were stewards of this story, to see that epic event unfold. The only diminishing aspect of this was the passing of Mr. Mays. Willie Mays, the legendary Willie Mays, who we lost still too early. Even at 93, we lost him too early. And. But in its own poetic way, his passing drew even more eyeballs to this major, epic, national televised game. And it was just so profound to see those Negro league players who had gathered there. And obviously this was done in the spirit of Mr. Mays. And everyone was hopeful that he, too, would be back there at a place that started and launched his professional baseball career, where he was 17 years old, patrolling center field for the Birmingham Black Barons.
- [29:56]
Riley Neubauer
Wow.
- [29:56]
Greg Jackson
And he would not have wanted the spotlight to be just on him. He would have wanted his other colleagues to get their shine as well.
- [30:07]
Riley Neubauer
Right.
- [30:08]
Greg Jackson
And that's exactly what happened. But it was a tremendous celebration. I still can't believe that my friends over at Fox Sport gave me essentially 30 minutes of national TV airtime to tell stories. And. But I am thrilled that so many baseball fans enjoyed the stories that I was sharing. And they took the opportunity to send messages and other notes via social media just about how much they enjoyed that experience as well. But to be there, you just felt that spirit.
- [30:41]
Bob Kendrick
I mean, even watching on tv, I could feel some of that spirit, especially from the stories you were telling. I've noticed in, like, in those interviews and in those stories, you've talked about how the style of play and the attitude that Negro league baseball players had was very different from white major league baseball. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that with us.
- [31:01]
Greg Jackson
Well, Major league baseball in that era, before Jackie Robinson breaks the color barrier, was essentially a base to base kind of game. Nothing wrong with that. The guys would get up, set the table, get on base, they move that guy over into scoring position, and then the big hitters came in and drove them in again. Nothing wrong with that. But the pace of play in the Negro leagues was fast, aggressive, daring. They bunt their way home, they'd steal second, they would steal third, and guys, if you weren't too smart, they were stealing home. And so it was indeed a far more exciting brand of baseball. As my friend, the late, great Buck O'Neill would say, you couldn't go to the concession stands because you might miss something that you ain't never seen before, you know, and the major leaguers back then would accuse the Negro League players of showboating. So if a guy dove in the hole, flipped it behind his back and started to double play, they would say, oh, he's showboating. Well, today that is a celebrated top 10 sports highlight virtually every day of the week when those things happen. But as my friend Buck O'Neill would say, and this is so poignant, number one, if you got something to show, show it. Yeah. Don't be afraid to show it. And number two is only showboating when you can't do it.
- [32:35]
Riley Neubauer
I love it. Oh, that is good. Let's expand. What some listeners might understand is who's playing in the Negro Leagues? Yes, it's interesting. I think we're worth talking about that the Negro Leagues really accepted, well, anyone who wasn't able to play in the white leagues.
- [32:54]
Greg Jackson
Right. That's the beauty of the Negro Leagues, because the Negro Leagues, they just refused to succumb to treating others the way that they were being treated.
- [33:04]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah.
- [33:04]
Greg Jackson
The Negro Leagues didn't care what color you were. They didn't care what gender you were. Can you play? Do you have something to offer? That's the way it is supposed to be. And that's why I say that the Negro Leagues embodies the American spirit unlike any story in the annals of American history. It is everything that America prides itself in being. It's not there yet.
- [33:30]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah, but America's best like the idea, right?
- [33:33]
Greg Jackson
Exactly. The ideal behind it. Yeah, but because it's not there yet doesn't mean it is not the greatest country in the world. It just means that there's still work left to be done. And through the lens of these incredibly courageous and talented athletes, my visitors, I think, gain a greater appreciation for why diversity, equity and inclusion are to be so valued and how they are indeed pillars for building a bridge for tolerance and respect. And so you're right. The Negro League players welcomed anyone. So, yeah, there were Spanish speaking athletes who called the Negro Leagues home. There were a handful of white athletes that called the Negro Leagues home. There were three pioneering women who called the Negro Leagues home. And our game, which is a global game, as you both know, you can look at a major league roster on any given day of the week and you see so many different ethnicities that make up those major league rosters.
- [34:38]
Riley Neubauer
Right.
- [34:39]
Greg Jackson
When you go back and examine the history of the Negro Leagues, you'll find that our game is a global game because of the Negro Leagues. They took this game to all parts of the globe. They would go into Canada, barnstorming their way into Canada. They were oftentimes the first Americans to play in many Spanish speaking countries. It was a touring team of Negro leaguers who would make their way to Japan in 1927. Guys, that's seven years before Babe Ruth and his All Americans would go to Japan, right? Taking this brand of professional baseball. Now, the Japanese had been playing baseball, but they'd not seen this brand of professional American baseball until a team called the Philadelphia Royal Giants go over and play a historic exhibition series, a 24 game series where they go some 23,01 on the tour. The tour was so successful that seven years later, Babe Ruth and his all Americans would make their way to Japan. We have some very rare memorabilia from that tour of Japan. And I had the tremendous honor of showing that memorabilia to our dear friend, former Japanese major league star Ichiro Suzuki. And y'all lit up like a Christmas tree. Yeah, he can only imagine. Oh, man, it was special. He had no idea that these brothers had been to his native homeland as early as 1927. And the memorabilia that we have, it is written in old Japanese, but he was actually able to interpret what was on the COVID of the Game Day magazine. And so when you talk to the older Japanese baseball historian, they credit that tour of 1927 and a subsequent tour by those same Philadelphia Royal Giant team as being the spark that ignited the flame that is now the fire for professional baseball in Japan.
- [36:48]
Bob Kendrick
Oh, wow.
- [36:48]
Riley Neubauer
I mean, it's just fascinating to think about that, you know, the ripple effect across history that the Negro Leagues have on bringing us to what we have today.
- [36:57]
Greg Jackson
That's one of the reasons why Buck O'Neill and Ichiro Suzuki became somewhat kindred spirits. Yeah, because when Ichiro came from Japan over to this country, there were so many naysayers that said, now his kid had put up 3,000 hits there in Japan. And all the naysayers were saying, well, you did that in your league, but you won't do it in our league. Guess what? They said the same thing about the players from the Negro League. You did this in your league, but you won't do it in our league. And what happens, Ichiro comes over here and does the exact same thing. Because a great athlete is a great athlete. I don't care where you come from. And Buck used to hang out at the Cape. So when the opposing teams came into town, Buck didn't just hang out with our Kansas City Royal guys. He would sit around the cage and he'd talk to any and everybody. And Ichiro would go on to say that he admired Buck's style. Buck was this classily dressed gentleman and they just hit it off. And that was a mutual admiration because Buck understood what this kid from Japan was going to have to endure. He was essentially going to have to prove himself because of what the naysayers were saying. Just as he and the other players from the Negro Leagues, once the color barrier is knocked down, those athletes had to prove themselves because the naysayers were plentiful. You won't do this in our league. And guess what? They ripped up that league as well.
- [38:42]
Riley Neubauer
Challenge accepted, right?
- [38:43]
Bob Kendrick
Exactly. It's amazing that they became somewhat of stars and icons for the entirety of America, but also for the world. And I would imagine also more specifically for the local black community. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the Negro League was represented for non baseball players.
- [39:02]
Greg Jackson
In the African American community. The Negro Leagues were a tremendous source of pride because it was inherently ours. Now it was shared with others, but it was inherently ours and we supported it tremendously. And as I tell folks, there was nothing recreational about a Negro Leagues game. It was the social event of the week. Yeah, Riley, you went to see and you went to be seen. So you go have on, as the guys would say, your fineries when you went to the ballpark. And a lot of times we were leaving church because so many of the Negro League games were held on Sunday when they could get access to the major league ballparks. And so we're leaving church anyway. And Nepo leagues baseball was so popular that black churches would move their service time up an hour so folks could go to the game. Now, as I tell my guests, if you know anything about the black church, you don't mess with service time. 11:00 Sunday, go to meeting. Well, here in Kansas City, when the Kansas City Monarchs were at home, Sunday service would start at 10 o'clock and everybody left going to that Sunday double header dressed to the nines, as they would say, looking good. And so it was a social event that generated so much pride. And at a time when black folks were being treated in such a way, they needed something to hold onto. But that's also why those African American communities were so strong. So what segregation? While segregation was a horrible chapter in this country's history, what segregation did was it forced a very close knit community. And what it did was it forced us to have our own businesses. And when you examine Negro Leagues baseball in a much deeper perspective, the success of the Negro Leagues drove the success of many of those, as I defined them Segregated mandated black owned businesses. So good case in point here at 18th and Vinegar where the Negro League baseball museum operates to this day. 18th and vine, y'all, once upon a time was as recognized street cross section as there was anywhere in the world because you had that intrinsic mixture of jazz and baseball radiating from this one street corner. It was the epicenter of black life in Kansas City, both business and entertainment. Now, 12th and vine had a lot of entertainment, but you also have to remember that in Kansas City, black folks could not live beyond about a 13 block radius. You couldn't go outside those 13 blocks, but within those 13 blocks you had everything you needed and so much of it when it came to entertainment that others were coming in to get some of it. When we go back and examine integration in baseball, which ultimately triggered integration in a broader spectrum in our society, that was the very thing that killed the Negro Leagues. And then the ripple impact was it killed black economy and so on so many levels. This is indeed a bittersweet story because those smaller black owned businesses, once integration occurs, could no longer compete with their mainstream counterparts. But at the same time, we were seeing this transitioning going on in the Negro Leagues where its great black stars were leaving to go to the major leagues. This creates a natural curiosity. Black folks had been waiting and hoping that one day their great black stars would get that opportunity to compete in the major leagues. So what did we do? We left the Negro Leagues to go see Jackie, to go see Larry Doby, to go see Satchel Page, Don Newcomb and the others who would transition in. And ultimately that led to the demise of the Negro leagues and to a larger extent, the demise of black economy.
- [43:55]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah, bittersweet is the only word to describe that, isn't it?
- [43:58]
Greg Jackson
You know, honestly, Greg, I don't know if we truly understood what we were losing when we lost the Negro Leagues. It was a natural inclination to want to see how they would fare if they got the opportunity to play with and against their white counterparts. Now we've watched them play countless exhibition games. You talked about that earlier in the show. And the record books bear out that the Negro League or the black all star teams won the more majority of their head to head matchups against their white counterparts. But this was a natural curiosity to want to see what would happen. And of course, the economy was such that you couldn't support two baseball leagues.
- [44:42]
Riley Neubauer
Sure.
- [44:43]
Greg Jackson
So the Negro leagues died a slow death, but it was a imminent death. It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of when. The Negro Leagues were going to fold. But I don't know if people understood the ripple effect that that was going to have. You see, Negro League baseball was bringing those businesses a built in clientele that led them to their economic heights.
- [45:08]
Riley Neubauer
Speaking of that legacy of what was and wanting to remember that, do you want to talk to us a little bit about the campaign that you mentioned to build.
- [45:17]
Greg Jackson
Well, to understand the origins of this museum is amazing in its own right, guys. We started in a little one room office, a fraction of the size of my office that I'm sitting in now. And guys like Buck O'Neill and other local Negro leaguers who were still with us, who called Kansas City home, they've all passed on now, they literally took turns paying the monthly rent to keep that little office open. And as I like to say with it, our hopes and dreams of one day building a facility that would pay rightful tribute to not just one of the greatest chapters in baseball history. But what now, thousands upon thousands, each and every year discover one of the greatest chapters in American history. Well, In November of 1997, we moved into what we then call our permanent home. And as you can imagine, when you go from a one room office and now you got 10,000 square feet of space, it seemed like an insurmountable amount of space. Matter of fact, you're wondering how in the heck we gonna feel all the stuff.
- [46:13]
Riley Neubauer
I bet it filled up just fine real quick, huh?
- [46:16]
Greg Jackson
It filled up very quick and we've run out of space both from an exhibit standpoint as well as administratively to match all of the interest that has been generated by these things that we've been talking about during this show. And that prompted us to announce last May our plans to build a brand new 30 plus thousand square foot Negro Leagues baseball museum right around the corner from where we operate now, the old Pasale YMCA where the Negro Leagues were established in 1920, in that very building that is going to become the buck O'Neill education and research Center. So we're renovating that historic landmark as we speak and then we will build a brand new Negro Leagues baseball museum attached to the historic landmark where it all began. I guess you could say going full circle to where it all began. Whether the story that we're now charged with preserving was born. And the campaign is called Pitch for the Future. And for those who would be interested, and we hope a lot of you are, we do too interested in supporting this effort of growth for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. You can make a charitable contribution to the campaign online at www.nlbm.com at the donation tab and you can drag down and you'll see the Pitch for the future campaign. We need to raise some $30 million to build this new home. And I am as excited as you can be about the task of having to raise $30 billion. That's the small number, as I tell people, Greg, and this is so true, every buck counts. So that gives us another step closer to that.
- [48:11]
Riley Neubauer
Financial pennies add up.
- [48:14]
Greg Jackson
Absolutely. So there is no number that is too small. And of course there is no dollar number that is too large.
- [48:24]
Riley Neubauer
You know, Bob, I bet you find something good to do with it if you manage to break 30 million, be that much better.
- [48:31]
Bob Kendrick
Sure. I'm just going to ask because I know when I visited the museum, my favorite spot and I know that's true of many visitors, is the mock in field you have set up. And so I'm wondering if you're going to be recreating that in the new space.
- [48:43]
Greg Jackson
Oh, I could not rally. If I don't take that field of legends over with me to a new place, they're going to run me out of this town. That space that you're referring to is so iconic and obviously I'm biased, but I think it is one of the most amazing displays in any museum anywhere in the world. And folks, when you walk out on that field and you stand amongst these 10 life size statues of Negro League grace and their cast and position as if they were playing a game, you feel their spirit. You do, you really do. And Riley, I have no doubt the once the dust settles, everybody going home, you know, they throwing the ball around the horn in there.
- [49:31]
Riley Neubauer
Well, you know, Bob, I'm at the disadvantage or unlike Riley, I have not had the privilege of making it there.
- [49:37]
Greg Jackson
Got a comment in man, look.
- [49:39]
Riley Neubauer
Barbecue and the museum. That's it. Done.
- [49:43]
Greg Jackson
That is it. That is it.
- [49:45]
Riley Neubauer
Well, hey, thank you so much for your time today. Anything else that you know, that we haven't touched on that really needs to be spoken to be that, you know, how the Kansas City Royals are doing this season. Season or anything.
- [49:56]
Greg Jackson
Great baseball. It's exciting to see baseball relevant again. In case.
- [50:01]
Riley Neubauer
Yeah.
- [50:01]
Greg Jackson
And the atmosphere is just electric. We're seeing a lot of people come through the turnstiles here at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. You know, we didn't talk about the video game MLB the show and the inclusion of the Negro Leagues in the video game which may be the biggest thing that this museum has ever done. Because guys, we're talking millions upon millions of young people and young adults who are not only learning about the Negro Leagues, but they're falling in love with the Negro Leagues because we brought it to them in a molded medium in which they are accustomed to engaging with. And we have a five year partnership with Sony PlayStation for that inclusion of the Negro Leagues which we debuted in the 23 version of the game. And this is second year in 24. And it's just exciting to see all of these revelations that are happening in and around Negro Leagues baseball history. And it comes at a perfect time, as we mentioned, as we are now dreaming about a new home for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.
- [51:03]
Riley Neubauer
Fantastic. Well, Bob, thank you again and I am looking forward to you and me, man. We're going to get some barbecue and then we're going to hey, you got a deal.
- [51:11]
Greg Jackson
You got a deal. Just let me know where you headed to kc.
- [51:14]
Riley Neubauer
All right, thanks again. You take care.
- [51:17]
Bob Kendrick
Thank you for sharing all of that.
- [51:18]
Riley Neubauer
Well, my friends, that wraps up this bonus episode. If you'd like more, head over to htdspodcast.com and become a Premium member to hear an extra segment from my conversation with Bob Kendrick where we talk about Major League Baseball finally adding player stats from the Negro Leagues into the official record. HTDS Premium members also get every HTDS episode ad free and early. More stories and other member benefits. We'll be back next week right here in your podcast feed with another storytelling episode continuing our narrative through the Roaring Twenties. History that Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Episode Produced by Dawson McCraw with editorial assistance by Riley Neubauer Production by Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Theme music composed by Greg Jackson Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham with airship. Visit htdspodcast.com for more information. HTDS is supported by Premium membership fans. You can join by clicking the link in the episode description. My gratitude to you kind souls providing additional funding to help us keep going and a special thanks to our members whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Andy Thompson, Anthony Pizzullo, Art Lane Beth Chris Jansen, Bob Drazevich, Brian Goodson, Bronwyn Cohen, Carrie Begle, Charles and Shirley Clendendon, Charlie Magus, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman David DeFazio, David Rifkin Denke Durante Spencer Donald Moore Donna Marie Jeffcoat, Ellen Stewart Ernie Lowe George Sherwood, Gerwith Griffin Henry Brunges, Jake Gilbreth, James g. Bledsoe Janie McCreary, Jeff Marks, Jennifer Moots, Jennifer Magnolia, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppick, Joe Dopas John Frugal, Dougal John Boovie, John Keller, John Oliveros, John Ridlevich, John Schaeffer, John Schmidt, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Justin M. Spriggs, Justin May, Kristin Pratt, Karen Bartholomew, Cassie Coneco, Kim R. Kyle Decker, Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham, Mark Ellis, Matthew Mitchell, Matthew Simmons, Melanie Jan, Nick Secender, Nick Caffrell, Noah Hoff, Owen Sedlak, Paul Goeringer, Randy Guthrie, Reese Humphries Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Sarah Traywick, Samuel Lagasse, Sharon Thiessen, Sean Baines, Steve Williams, the Creepy Girl, Tisha Black and Zack Jackson.
- [53:24]
D
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