McDonald’s Before McDonald’s

Summary

Podcast Summary: HISTORY This Week – "McDonald’s Before McDonald’s"

Episode Information:

• Title: HISTORY This Week
• Host: Sally Helm
• Episode: McDonald’s Before McDonald’s
• Release Date: May 12, 2025
• Produced by: Back Pocket Studios in partnership with the HISTORY® Channel

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Introduction to McDonald's Origins

In the episode titled "McDonald’s Before McDonald’s," host Sally Helm delves into the early days of the McDonald brothers, Dick and Mac McDonald, and the inception of what would become the world's largest fast-food empire. Set against the backdrop of 1940s America, the episode explores how the brothers' innovative approach to restaurant management laid the foundation for the modern fast-food industry.

The Birth of McDonald's Famous Barbecue

Setting the Scene: The story begins on May 15, 1940, in San Bernardino, California, a modest working-class city known for its orange groves and as a pivotal stop along Route 66. The McDonald brothers unveil their new venture, an octagon-shaped wooden building with a distinctive overhanging roof adorned with signs like "Red Hots," "Giant Malts," and "Hamburgers." The neon sign proudly announces McDonald's Famous Barbecue, marking the opening day of what was intended to offer good food and quick service to American drivers.

Service Innovation: Customers pull their cars into the restaurant, which features a unique layout where cars fan out like spokes from the octagon. Waitresses, known as carhops, approach customers at their windows to take orders. The diverse menu includes barbecued beef, ham, pork, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and the "aristocratic hamburger," all served with fries.

Early Success: Mac McDonald reflects on the opening day, noting, "It went relatively smoothly... they're off to a good start" ([00:09:31]). The restaurant quickly becomes popular, attracting a steady stream of customers, particularly teenagers. However, underlying issues begin to surface, hinting at the challenges the brothers would face in scaling their business.

Challenges and Pivot Towards Efficiency

Interpersonal Dynamics and Operational Inefficiencies: As the restaurant gains popularity, especially among teenage boys, interpersonal dramas emerge. Fry cooks and carhops develop tensions that affect service speed and efficiency. Additionally, the expansive 25-item menu proves to be unwieldy, leading to inconsistent quality and operational bottlenecks.

Marcia Chatlin, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, explains, "The pre McDonald's world was slower... but the brothers noticed inefficiencies that needed addressing" ([05:23]).

Decision to Restructure: In response to these challenges, the McDonald brothers make a pivotal decision in 1948 to shut down their successful restaurant temporarily. This bold move is driven by their obsession with efficiency and the desire to streamline operations. As Adam Chandler, journalist and author of Drive Thru: A Journey through the Heart of America's Fast Food Kingdom, notes, "They were logistics guys... obsessed with efficiency" ([10:24]).

Innovations and the Speedy System

Menu Simplification: The brothers reduce their menu from 25 items to nine, focusing on high-demand items like hamburgers and fries. This simplification allows for faster service and greater consistency. Marcia Chatlin highlights, "They realized 80% of their sales were hamburgers, so they focused on perfecting that" ([17:12]).

Kitchen Overhaul: To support their streamlined menu, Dick and Mac engineer a new kitchen designed for maximum efficiency. Innovations include:

• Custom Grill: A larger grill to handle increased volume.
• Lazy Susan: Facilitates quick assembly of burgers without wasting space or time.
• Automated Fry Chopper: Speeds up the preparation of french fries.
• Condiment Dispenser: Inspired by candy machines, this ensures consistent portioning of ketchup and mustard ([19:07]).

Speedy System and Mascot: The brothers develop the "Speedy System," estimating their ability to grill 40 patties every 110 seconds and serve 900 portions of fries hourly. They introduce Speedy, a mascot with a giant hamburger bun head, to appeal to children and rebrand the restaurant's image towards families.

Marcia Chatlin remarks, "Speedy appeals to kids and helps shift the clientele from teen hangouts to family-friendly establishments" ([21:05]).

Expansion Efforts and Ray Kroc’s Introduction

Initial Franchising Attempts: Embracing their success, the McDonald brothers begin franchising, allowing other restaurateurs to adopt their model. However, the lack of a robust royalty system leads to inconsistent quality and minimal financial returns for the brothers.

Ray Kroc’s Entry: Ray Kroc, a seasoned restaurant salesman, becomes intrigued by the McDonald brothers' efficient operation. By 1954, Kroc, then selling milkshake machines, visits McDonald's Famous Barbecue out of curiosity. Impressed by the speed and quality, he pitches an expansion vision to the brothers, envisioning McDonald's at every community hub like schools and churches.

Quote from Ray Kroc: "I've never waited in line for a hamburger my whole life... it's ready so quickly" ([29:35]).

Transition of Control: Despite initial resistance due to differing visions—Kroc's ambition vs. the brothers' preference for a local operation—eventual tensions lead to the brothers selling the business. In 1961, Kroc acquires full control of McDonald’s Corporation for $2.7 million, ensuring the preservation of the brand name while sidelining the original San Bernardino location by opening a new restaurant across the street.

Legacy and Impact

Global Expansion: Under Ray Kroc's leadership, McDonald's transforms into the iconic global brand known today, boasting over 40,000 locations and $25 billion in annual revenue as of 2025. The brothers, content with their initial success and legacy, live out their lives enjoying the American dream without further expansion.

Reflections on Founding Contributions: Marcia Chatlin reflects on the brothers' inability to foresee the empire they created: "They couldn't have predicted the scale and technology that McDonald's would achieve" ([34:20]). Adam Chandler emphasizes the shared founding credit between the brothers and Kroc, noting the brothers established the foundational model, while Kroc scaled it to unprecedented heights.

Preserving the Name: The enduring legacy of the McDonald brothers is cemented through the brand name, as Adam Chandler states, "If it had been called Kroc's Hamburgers, nobody would be as interested in it." ([35:23]).

Conclusion

The episode "McDonald’s Before McDonald’s" provides a comprehensive look into the entrepreneurial spirit of Dick and Mac McDonald, their innovative approaches to efficiency, and the eventual takeover by Ray Kroc that propelled McDonald's into a global powerhouse. Through expert interviews and historical insights, the podcast underscores the importance of adaptability, innovation, and strategic vision in business success.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mac McDonald: "Opening day went relatively smoothly... they're off to a good start" ([09:31]).
• Marcia Chatlin: "The pre McDonald's world was slower... but the brothers noticed inefficiencies that needed addressing" ([05:23]).
• Ray Kroc: "I've never waited in line for a hamburger my whole life... it's ready so quickly" ([29:35]).
• Adam Chandler: "They were logistics guys... obsessed with efficiency" ([10:24]).
• Adam Chandler: "If it had been called Kroc's Hamburgers, nobody would be as interested in it." ([35:23]).

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Further Reading:

• Drive Thru: A Journey through the Heart of America's Fast Food Kingdom by Adam Chandler
• The Golden Arches in Black America by Marcia Chatlin
• Ray and Joan: The Man Who Made the McDonald's Fortune and the Woman Who Gave It All Away by Lisa Napoli
• McDonald's Behind the Arches by John F. Love

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Production Credits:

• Produced and Sound Designed by: Ben Dickstein
• Produced by: Sally Helm for Back Pocket Studios
• Executive Producers: Eli Lehrer and Liv Fitler from the History Channel

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Stay Connected:

• Website: historythisweekpodcast.com
• Email: [e-mail]
• Follow: Rate and review "History This Week" on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Sally Helm]

The History Channel Original Podcast history this week May 15, 1940 I'm Sally Helm, San Bernardino, a working class city 60 miles east of Los Angeles. It's known for its orange groves and as a rest stop for weary drivers making their way across the Mojave desert on Route 66 and today there's a new stop on that. A strange looking octagon shaped wooden building. It has a huge overhanging roof trimmed with signs. Red Hots, Giant malts, Hamburgers. And a neon sign announcing the name McDonald's famous barbecue. This restaurant is opening today and it caters to a new kind of American consumer drivers. The owners are two brothers, Dick and Mac McDonald. They want to give people good food and quick service right at their cars. Those cars pull in head first, fanning out from the octagon like spokes on a wheel. And the waitresses or carhops come right up to your window. The menu is varied. You can get the featured items. Barbecued beef, ham or pork. There's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, or what's called an aristocratic hamburger. All of it served with a side of fries. Mac McDonald later says that opening day went relatively smoothly. There's still a lot to figure out. But he and his brother are off to a good start, better than they know, because they had no real plans of launching the biggest fast food chain in the world. But that's exactly what McDonald's famous barbecue would become today. The McDonald brothers open McDonald's. How did Dick and Mac engineer a system that would be replicated in thousands of locations across the world, across the globe? And why don't they get the credit they deserve? The McDonald brothers aren't the guys you might have picked to revolutionize food in America, making it faster, cheaper, more portable. The restaurant reflection of the post war world.

[Marcia Chatlin]

I think a world before McDonald's is increasingly harder to imagine.

[Sally Helm]

Marcia Chaplin, professor at the University of Pennsylvania and author of a book on the history of McDonald's. She told us the pre McDonald's world was slower. Travelers could sit down at a truck stop or a small diner to order some eggs or a sandwich or a hamburger. Though in the early 1900s, they had a bad rap.

[Marcia Chatlin]

Most Americans thought of hamburger as a low quality, kind of cast off, kind of, kind of food. Food that was consumed late at night after people maybe enjoyed a night of drinking or consumed by workers who were taking breaks on construction sites.

[Sally Helm]

But that starts to change. White castle opens in 1921, and they actually start to shift Americans towards hamburgers. But Dick and Mac McDonald, when they were growing up, they wouldn't have tried White Castle because there weren't any in their home state of New Hampshire in the 1920s. In fact, there still aren't any there today. But there are, at the time of this recording, 62 McDonald's. The two brothers are seven years apart. Mac is older, Dick is younger. And the Great Depression hits their family hard. After the stock market crash in 1929, their dad loses his job at a shoe factory. He'd been working there for 42 years. It's brutal. No pension, no thanks. The brothers vow this will not be their fate. In fact, they set a goal. They want to make a million dollars by the time they turn 50. Job prospects in New Hampshire aren't great.

[Adam Chandler]

So like many before them, Dick and Mac McDonald head west with the idea of breaking into Hollywood and having this glamorous American career.

[Sally Helm]

That's Adam Chandler, journalist and author of a book on the history of fast food. And when the McDonald brothers get to sunny, glitzy California, they do get jobs, but they don't make it big. They're basically hired hands on Hollywood backlots. They'd push around sets and work the lights on silent movies. Dick later said they were just a couple of flunkies, but they want to be millionaires. So they decide to try another time. Honored American entrepreneurship. The McDonald brothers take over a movie theater. But it's still the Depression. People can't really afford that kind of luxury. The movie theater is barely scraping by. So the brothers are like, what else can we do? And they notice that one type of business in town seems to be doing all right. Food. Cheap food.

[Adam Chandler]

Food that is affordable and not stuffy.

[Sally Helm]

There's a root beer stand that seems to be making a killing. So Dick and Mac open up a roadside stand next to a nearby airport. It specializes in the odd combination of hot dogs and orange juice. This is, after all, orange grove country. And they strike a deal with a supplier to get 20 dozen oranges for a quarter. Their stand is in a wooden octagonal building. You step up to the window, order your food, and eat at one of the stools that lines the building's eight sides. The brothers do great. They make enough money that they can actually bring their parents from New Hampshire to California. But they can see that stools are not the future. The future is cars. So they set their sights on a new location. San Bernardino.

[Marcia Chatlin]

We have Route 66 passing through San Bernardino. It's a place that is being populated by a lot of military personnel. Because of the growth of military bases in the area, the brothers are betting.

[Sally Helm]

That this town will continue to grow. They dismantle their original hot dog and juice stand. They actually pay a company to slice it in half and reassemble it at their new location on 14th and E Street. On May 15, 1940, McDonald's famous barbecue opens its doors. They've expanded their menu. They're now serving a lot more than hot dogs and orange juice.

[Marcia Chatlin]

They're doing way too much. There's peanut butter and jelly. There's barbecue, there's tamales, and of course, hamburgers.

[Sally Helm]

Following the trend started by White Castle, the McDonald brothers are looking to create something informal, approachable, and catered towards drivers. They hire 20 carhopswaitresses who come out and meet you at your car to take your order.

[Marcia Chatlin]

Carhops were usually women, and they're on roller skates. And it's kind of an experience that you would see in a movie about the 1950s.

[Sally Helm]

The drivers seem to love it. Within a few years, McDonald's famous barbecue is hitting a groove. The parking lot is often full, and it can fit 125 cars at a time. Revenues at just this one location are topping $200,000 a year. So they're not millionaires yet, but they're on their way.

[Adam Chandler]

They're so successful, they're buying a new cabin Cadillac every single year.

[Sally Helm]

The brothers share the profits. They also share a house, a 25 room mansion on top of a hill overlooking the restaurant.

[Marcia Chatlin]

They're happy if they can have the fanciest house in San Bernardino and this business that makes some good returns. Like they're living the American dream.

[Sally Helm]

And yet, as businessmen, they're a little bored because it turns out the McDonald brothers love running a restaurant. They love making service quick, and they want to find ways to make it even quicker.

[Adam Chandler]

The McDonald's brothers are wizards. They are obsessed with efficiency, and they're.

[Sally Helm]

Seeing some obvious inefficiencies. First, those car hops.

[Marcia Chatlin]

There's concern that the young women are a distraction to the young men who work there, and they really just want to focus on getting people and fast.

[Sally Helm]

Yeah, there's been some interpersonal drama developing at the restaurant. Apparently the fry cooks would ask out the carhops, and when the carhops inevitably said no thanks, the fry cooks would cook their orders slower. Plus, McDonald's famous barbecue was really popular with teens, and a lot of the boys wanted to hang out with the carhops, too.

[Adam Chandler]

The reality that they had these carhops that were attracting younger teens to hang out at the restaurant and perhaps cause mischief and flirt or hang around too long made it less efficient than they wanted it to be.

[Sally Helm]

Also, the restaurant is using dishes and silverware, and the brothers are pretty sure that the teens are stealing it. Plus, they realize that their menu is a little crazy. Like, why are we selling tamales and ham and baked beans. And so in 1948, Dick and Mac McDonald make a huge decision.

[Adam Chandler]

In a wild turn, they decide to shutter their very successful restaurant.

[Sally Helm]

History this Week is now in its sixth season. Kind of crazy and we love bringing you these stories. All of our work is supported by the ads you hear on the show. But if you don't want to hear those ads, we're now introducing history this week plus available exclusively on Apple Podcasts for just $2.99 per month. You'll get all of our new episodes without any of the ads and we'll be adding ad free versions of our older episodes too. So subscribe now and get your first week free. History this Week plus exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

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[G]

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[Sally Helm]

There was disbelief and pride and life changing.

[G]

My name is Nicole Carroll and I'm a member of the Pulitzer Board and host of Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes. In each episode, winners reveal how much labor and risk, heart and imagination go into creating their prize winning work. We'll talk with novelists and reporters.

[Sally Helm]

We found stuff that no one had.

[Nicole Carroll]

Heard before or found out.

[Sally Helm]

It was exciting.

[G]

Critics and playwrights I do not want to live in a world where we don't go on a stage and tell the truth about who we are. And columnists who've risked their lives to speak truth to power.

[Sally Helm]

What moral right would I have to call on my fellow Russian citizens to stand up to the Putin dictatorship if I didn't do it myself?

[G]

The second season of Pulitzer on the Road premiered March 10. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Sally Helm]

Fall 1948 Dick and Mac McDonald have decided to close their very successful restaurant and redesign it from the ground up. Not something everyone would want to do. But the McDonald brothers aren't everyone.

[Adam Chandler]

They were logistics guys. They were fascinated with getting everything they could out of every square inch, every ingredient, every employee.

[Sally Helm]

They hole up in their 25 room mansion to rethink every aspect of the business, starting with the food, which at the time is largely barbecue. But barbecue is kind of slow.

[Marcia Chatlin]

They realized that, you know, having to kind of preside over a smoker and have to worry about an open pit wasn't a really viable business move.

[Sally Helm]

Plus, when they look at the data, they see something interesting. 80% of their sales are actually hamburgers. That's what the people seem to really want. So their 25 item menu gets cut down to nine, starring hamburgers and fries. There's also potato chips, a slice of pie, milk coffee and three different flavors of soda. This streamlined menu means that they can streamline everything else.

[Marcia Chatlin]

They get rid of plates to get rid of knives and forks.

[Sally Helm]

Yeah, no need for silverware. It's getting stolen anyway. And if you're just serving burgers and fries, they can be wrapped up in paper. The drinks will come in paper cups with plastic straws. And you know what customers you can get out of your car and come up to the window and grab the food yourself. No more car hops and so no more leather jacket clad teens loitering in the parking lot hoping for a date. It's going to be quick, simple, no frills.

[Adam Chandler]

You're going to have hamburgers served to you within a minute or so. And you take it with you either to eat in the parking lot or to hit the road and go.

[Sally Helm]

They're going for cheap food and high volume. The goal is to make a good, affordable hamburger as efficiently as humanly possible. And the kind of kitchen you really need to do that, it doesn't exist. So the McDonald brothers build it.

[Adam Chandler]

They create the grill that they want that is bigger than any grill that exists. They create a lazy Susan so you can dress all of the burgers and all of the buns quickly enough without any waste of space or time.

[Sally Helm]

They commission a special french fry chopper machine.

[Marcia Chatlin]

You just do one potato and one crank and then you've got all of these french fries to make one of.

[Sally Helm]

The other machines, Dick McDonald even does a bit of espionage. He remembered as a kid, he'd eaten these peppermint patty candies and he wanted to know, how did they make sure that each peppermint patty had the same exact amount of peppermint filling? So he contacts a candy company in.

[Adam Chandler]

Los Angeles, pretending to be a journalist, and goes to a candy factory, essentially where they are pumping out peppermint patties out of a dispenser with a lever.

[Sally Helm]

It's kind of a cone shaped dispenser. And each time the button is pressed, it the same amount of peppermint goo comes out. Dick McDonald says, thank you very much. This will be great for my story. Then he goes to his designer and says, here's the idea. Make something like this for our condiments. And sure enough, they create a dispenser which is the forerunner of the one that's still in use at McDonald's today.

[Marcia Chatlin]

You press it and then it presses out like the perfect portion of ketchup and mustard.

[Adam Chandler]

This is a small item that kind of speaks to the entire ethos of the McDonald's brothers.

[Sally Helm]

Their new kitchen is going to be the site of a complex dance. They want people grilling patties and serving fries and bringing meals to customers. It's going to take Coordination. They actually go out to their home tennis court and plot the whole thing out in chalk, imagining all the choreography. A rainstorm washes it away overnight, so they have to draw it again. But when all is said and done, they estimate that they'll be able to grill 40 patties every 110 seconds and serve 900 portions of fries every hour. They call it the Speedy system. And they even have a mascot named Speedy.

[Marcia Chatlin]

Speedy has a giant head made out of a hamburger bun and like a little tiny body, it's, you know, fast, it's friendly. And also in creating the character of Speedy, it's appealing to kids.

[Sally Helm]

Yeah. The McDonald brothers are trying to change their clientele. They don't want to be a teen hangout anymore. They want to attract a different, very valuable group of customers. Families. And the way to get the families, get the kids.

[Adam Chandler]

The menu itself appeals to kids. You know, even today, going to a fast food restaurant, part of the fun is, is that you're kind of eating kids food.

[Sally Helm]

And they get off to a good start. The McDonald's reopened their restaurant in December of 1948. It's now called McDonald's Famous Hamburgers. Their first customer is a nine year old girl. She orders a bag of burgers for her family. The restaurant building itself is also attractive to kids. For one thing, the brothers let the customers look right into the kitchen and watch the food being made. Kids find that cool. And it also helps build trust among adults who might think this food is really fast and really cheap. What's going on back there? So the brothers show them.

[Adam Chandler]

You can see them making this food in the kitchen in front of you and see how quickly it all comes together. And it's kind of a moment marvel in and of itself. It feels futuristic. Somebody's dressing the hamburgers, somebody's grilling the hamburgers. The milkshake machines are churning out all of these different flavors of milkshakes at once. It was this very intricate dance and it moved so quickly that people would wonder if the food had been pre prepared. But it really wasn't.

[Sally Helm]

This new McDonald's is the future, and not everyone is ready for it. Customers will sometimes pull their cars up to the restaurant and flash their headlights, honk their horns, expecting a car hop to come up to their window and take their order. But those days are gone. In the first few months after the reopening, it doesn't seem like it's going to work. Customers are annoyed and revenues are down by 20%. But as word spreads and more and more families start Coming to the new McDonald's, things pick back up pretty soon. Profits double. And yet the brothers aren't satisfied. They keep refining, for example, their famous fries.

[Adam Chandler]

They leave the potatoes out so they could cure in the. In the desert air so that they will be that much more crispy. This is some real Taipei, fastidious kind of restauranting here, and it's something that's.

[Sally Helm]

Hard to replicate, but people decide to try. The brothers are getting some attention. Other restaurant owners want to know, how are you getting so many burgers out the door? And Dick and Mac start sharing what they've learned.

[Marcia Chatlin]

People can come and look at their operations and see how they arrange the fryers and the grills and the milkshake machines. And they're being featured in restaurant industry publications for what they've created.

[Sally Helm]

The brothers could be keeping this all secret. That would have been the better business move. But they're proud of what they've done and happy to share. Dick McDonald said they figured everyone can see into the kitchen anyway. He recalled giving tours to lots of other restaurateurs. They would come in with paper and pens and copy the layout, and my brother and I would laugh. Soon enough, copycat stores start popping up. Dozens of them in California alone. Counter service burgers at low prices. All done the McDonald's way.

[Adam Chandler]

If the McDonald's brothers had had someone hanging upside down manning the grill, they would have done the same thing. Because whatever was happening at McDonald's was working well enough that they would have copied anything ruthlessly.

[Sally Helm]

Keith Kramer and Matthew Burns take the idea to Florida. They add a flame broiler to the concept. Their restaurant is called Burger King. One regular customer, Glenn Bell, opens up his own fast food joint. Years later, based on the speedy system, he applies it to Mexican food and names the restaurant after himself. Taco Bell. As this kind of copycatting first takes off, the brothers belatedly try to take control of the situation. They license their name and branding to some local franchisees, nine of them in total. But the quality is really inconsistent, and the brothers aren't getting much money out of all this. There's no royalty system in place, just an upfront fee of about $1,000. The brothers are clearly good at running the business. Expanding it, not so much. But they are about to meet someone who will take this local hamburger stand and make it bigger than the McDonald brothers could have dreamed. Enter Ray Kroc.

[Ray Kroc]

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[Sally Helm]

Ray Kroc has been in the restaurant business for decades. He played piano for diners. He sold paper cups. By 1954, he's selling milkshake machines, and the McDonald brothers are some of his best customers. In fact, he has no idea how they're going through so many machines. What's going on over there? They're making an insane number of milkshakes. He decides to fly to California and see for himself. He shows up at the Octagonal building in San Bernardino.

[Marcia Chatlin]

He sees so many people coming in and out. He doesn't just see long lines, he sees people moving through the lines quickly.

[Sally Helm]

He gets in line with the other customers and decides to do a little test. He blurts out, I've never waited in line for a hamburger my whole life. The regulars tell him, don't worry, it moves fast and it's worth it. Kroc later says he doesn't remember what he ordered. Probably a burger. There aren't many options. And he is stunned by how fast his food is ready.

[Adam Chandler]

He's blown away by it because it's so counterintuitive that your food would be ready that quickly that they would hand it to you in a paper bag, everything wrapped up, ready to go, there's no place to sit. And it happens so quickly that you turn around and you're done.

[Sally Helm]

The brothers are both working that day like they do every day. Croc waits for the lunch rush to die down. Before approaching them, he invites them to dinner that night. They accept. Over that meal, he learns about their entire operation. And he knows, I've got to get in on this.

[Adam Chandler]

He immediately has a vision for it. Every place that has a school and a church should also have a McDonald's. And he makes that pitch over and over again until the McDonald's brothers let him take a shot at it.

[Sally Helm]

Ray Kroc becomes McDonald's exclusive franchising agent. He'll be in charge of expanding the operation. And he sees it could be huge.

[Adam Chandler]

He's done everything in restaurants his entire life. And all of a sudden he sees this model that makes him realize this is the future. And he's absolutely right.

[Sally Helm]

But the McDonald brothers don't exactly share his big vision for their business. They just see the world differently. Like Ray Kroc is this jet setting salesman. The brothers, they never take airplanes. They like their local life in San Bernardino.

[Marcia Chatlin]

They were probably thinking, we could probably do business with this guy, make a little extra money, maybe he'll take us, you know, as far as Los Angeles, maybe down to San Diego.

[Sally Helm]

But Ray Kroc, he's gone way beyond San Diego.

[Adam Chandler]

No matter what it takes, the McDonald's brothers are keen on making sure that the quality and the standards hold up. And Ray Kroc is a little bit more open to finding compromises to make sure that it scales more easily. And that's part of one, part of the conflict between that sort of erodes their relationship.

[Sally Helm]

They argue about a lot about, for one thing, the famous french fries.

[Adam Chandler]

You can't keep this San Bernardino french fry model in a place like Chicago where you can't leave the potatoes out to cure in the desert air.

[Sally Helm]

It's Chicago and about bigger things like money.

[Adam Chandler]

There's a lot of frustration on both ends. Ray Kroc himself is not doing financially very well in this situation, and he's letting him know that he's unhappy. Even though they're seeing profits, Kroc does expand the business.

[Sally Helm]

There are more and more McDonald's.

[Adam Chandler]

They open a lot of stores, but it's not exactly the McDonald's that we know it to be today, where it's on every corner and it's in every community. It's still trying to find its footing.

[Sally Helm]

And behind the scenes, the tension continues to grow. What happens next depends on who you ask. The brothers say they wanted to sell the business to Kroc.

[Adam Chandler]

The headaches aren't necessarily worth it to them, and they've already amassed a fortune that leads them to be rich for the rest of their lives, many times over, without any question about it.

[Sally Helm]

Kroc later tells a slightly different story, that he's the one who asked them to sell, to name the price that would get them out. That price was $2.7 million, which, after taxes, would net out to a million per brother. No royalties, no continued payments. But they'll get the cool million they set out for back in New Hampshire all those years ago. And at this point, they barely even need it. Kroc gripes about the price tag, but he agrees. He buys the brothers out and takes full control of the McDonald's Corporation in 1961. There is one other condition.

[Adam Chandler]

The McDonald's brothers keep the original McDonald's open. And Ray Kroc, being Ray Kroc, opens one across the street in San Bernardino and puts the original out of business, which is exactly the kind of move that Ray Kroc would do.

[Sally Helm]

McDonald's goes on to be McDonald's. As of 2025, it's the most valuable restaurant brand in the world, with some 40,000 locations and 25 billion in annual revenue. And yet the namesake founders live out their lives seemingly content with their decision. They were happy with a new Cadillac once a year. Marcia Tatlin says there's basically no way the brothers could have predicted what their burger stand would become.

[Marcia Chatlin]

I think the scale of it would be so confusing and confounding to them. And I think the idea of, like, touching a screen and getting your food without talking to someone would probably be bewildering because they lived before the Internet, but they would probably wonder if they could still deliver what they wanted to with these mechanisms.

[Sally Helm]

Ray Kroc, at many points in his life, refers to himself as the founder of McDonald's, which is true in a way, what he did and what the brothers did, they're almost two different businesses.

[Adam Chandler]

They're both founders. What Ray Kroc does with the financing, the building of the franchise model, and not just him, but his lieutenants and the creation of the operations machine that allows fast food to grow does warrant some kind of founder status in its own way. So I punt. I split the difference. I think they all deserve credit.

[Sally Helm]

Kroc does grant the brothers something important when it comes to the history books, their name.

[Adam Chandler]

You know, if it had been called Kroc's Hamburgers, nobody would really be as interested in it. When you HEAR the name McDonald's, you just have this association with it. So I do think the McDonald's brothers in a lot of ways win out because that name, you know, echoes through the generations now.

[Sally Helm]

Foreign thanks for listening to History this week, a Back Pocket Studios production in partnership with the History Channel. To stay updated on all things History this week, sign [e-mail] and if you have any thoughts or questions, send us an [e-mail] Special thanks to our guests Adam Chandler, journalist and author of Drive Thru A Journey through the Heart of America's Fast Food Kingdom, and Marcia Chatlin, professor of Africana Studies at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the Golden Arches in Black America. We also want to shout out two other great books we consulted as we were putting together this Ray and Joan the man who made the McDonald's fortune and the Woman who Gave It All Away by Lisa Napoli and McDonald's behind the arches by John F. Love. Thanks to Napoli and Love for writing those great books. This episode was produced and sound designed by Ben Dickstein. It was also produced by me, Sally Helm for Back Pocket Studios. Our executive producer is Ben Dickstein from the History Channel. Our executive producers are Eli Lehrer and Liv Fitler. Don't forget to follow rate and review History this week, wherever you get your podcasts and we'll see you next week.