Shaving Russia

Summary

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HISTORY This Week

Episode Title: Shaving Russia
Date: September 1, 2025
Host: Sally Helm
Guest Expert: Professor Lynn Hartnett

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Overview

This episode explores a transformative moment in Russian history: Tsar Peter the Great’s dramatic campaign to modernize Russia, symbolized by the forcible shaving of noblemen’s beards in 1698. Through vivid storytelling and insights from Professor Lynn Hartnett, the episode examines Peter’s motivations, his Westernization reforms, and their profound, lasting impact on Russian society, identity, and state power—even tracing echoes to the present day.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Shaving of 1698

• [02:01] Sally Helm recounts the morning when Peter the Great returned to Moscow from his European tour and, in a shocking display, personally shaved the beards of his elite supporters.
  • Beards were deeply tied to Russian Orthodox identity and masculinity. To shave them was seen as a sin; Ivan the Terrible said, “to shave the beard is a sin that the blood of all the martyrs cannot cleanse.”
  • Only the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church was spared, reflecting the beard’s religious significance.

2. Why It Mattered: Identity and Power

• [04:39] Prof. Lynn Hartnett explains Peter’s intent: “What this was was creating a clean fleet to introduce something new. Peter realized that in order to transform Russia, you had to get rid of these old traditions and superstitions. And doing so required something which to us in the 21st century seems to be rather silly. But for Russians, it was fundamental and it was tied to identity.”
• The beard-shaving was not superficial; it marked a forced cultural pivot towards Western Europe.

3. Russia Before Peter: Isolation and Tradition

• [08:54] Russia was huge but underpopulated, with most people living as serfs bound to land and noble elites dominating urban life.
• The Orthodox Church was a parallel authority. Russian elites thought of their country as the heir to Byzantium—the “Third Rome”—but politically, technologically, and culturally, it lagged behind Europe because it was essentially landlocked and isolated.

4. Peter’s Upbringing: Outsider to Reformer

• [12:13] Peter’s early life in the cosmopolitan ‘Foreign Quarter’ of Moscow exposed him to European ideas.
• His father’s death and ensuing palace intrigues gave him an unusual level of freedom for a royal, letting him indulge in “All Drunken All Jesting Assembly” antics and foster obsessions with military games and especially naval power.

5. The Great Embassy: Peter’s European Tour

• [17:49] Peter set out in 1697 with a massive entourage (about 250 people) in the “Great Embassy,” traveling in disguise as “Peter Mikhailov.”
  • In the Netherlands, he worked as a ship carpenter. In England, he studied the navy, attended Parliament, and observed industry and culture.
  • Peter was struck by Western fashion and the prevalence of clean-shaven faces: “When he looks at the men who are clean shaven, he thought they just looked so much more modern.” (Hartnett, [21:08])

6. Revolutionizing Russian Society (Beard Shaving and Beyond)

• [23:44] Upon his return (rushed by reports of rebellion), Peter’s first major act was to publicly shave the beards of the Russian elite. This was both literal and symbolic violence against tradition, meant to shock the nobility into modernity.
  • Quote: “To a Russian man their beard was part of their identity.” (Hartnett, [24:07])

Other Reforms:

• Introduction of a “beard tax”—peasants and clergy could keep their beards if they paid a fee ([26:03]).
• Creation of Russia’s first universities, newspapers, and printing presses ([26:38]).
• Reforms to social life: Nobles required to meet and socialize regularly; easing of marriage customs to allow courtship and chooseability ([26:45], [26:57]).
• Switched Russia’s calendar to the Julian system to align more closely with Europe ([27:13]).
• Restructured society to subordinate the church under the state ([27:57]) and curbed noble power.

7. Building a Modern State and Military

• Peter’s reforms enabled Russia to develop a modern army and navy.
• Victory over Sweden secured access to warm water ports and turned Russia into a major European power ([28:34]).

8. Peter’s Legacy: Autocracy and Modern Russia

• The long-term impacts:

  • Set the precedent for a powerful, interventionist ruler shaping every aspect of Russian society ([29:04]).
    • Quote: “A strong authoritarian ruler, a strong autocrat who was able to intervene in people's lives in the most seemingly minute ways. Whether that was forcing a man to shave his beard, wear a French style coat, or...decreeing that the whole Russian Orthodox Church was going to be transformed.” (Hartnett, [29:04])
  • Shaped not only Russia’s emergence as a global power, but also the enduring Russian ideal of the ‘strongman leader.’
  • Contemporary echoes: Putin references Peter’s legacy to validate Russia’s uninterrupted historical “greatness” and his own autocratic style ([29:42]).

• Hypothetical speculations: No Peter, possibly no defeat of the Nazis, no space race, no template for rulers like Stalin and Putin ([29:59]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Peter’s beard-shaving as existential threat:

  • “To shave the beard is a sin that the blood of all the martyrs cannot cleanse.” (Historical context, quoted around [03:25])
  • “This is just a superficial thing… but it was something so much more than that.” (Hartnett, [24:18])

• On Peter’s vision:

  • “Peter believed that the Russian people were just stuck in the past, that superstitions held them back. And beards were part of that… if you put aside superstitions, then you can open your mind to the future.” (Hartnett, [24:34])

• From Russian isolation to power:

  • “It allows Russia to become a global power. And that global power just gains over the course of the 18th century.” (Hartnett, [28:34])

• On legacy and Putin:

  • “It’s hard to imagine today's Russia had there not been a Peter the Great. Putin, in speech after speech, has alluded to the fact that… [Russia's] history goes back a thousand years.” (Hartnett, [29:42])
  • “This is something that Putin identifies with. He understands this idea of a strong man who will not tolerate any opposition…” (Hartnett, [30:25])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:01 - The beard-shaving event described
• 04:39 - Peter’s motives and cultural significance (Hartnett)
• 08:54-11:28 - Russian society and isolation pre-Peter
• 12:13-16:53 - Peter’s childhood, family dynamics, and youth
• 17:49-21:23 - The Great Embassy: Peter’s European tour and its influence
• 23:44 - The public beard-shaving and aftermath
• 24:34 - Religious significance and challenge to tradition (Hartnett)
• 26:03 - Beard tax and segregation of elites/peasants
• 26:38-27:13 - Broader reforms: education, marriage, calendar
• 27:57-28:34 - Peter subordinates church, builds power, military reforms
• 29:04 - The birth of Russian autocracy (“strongman” tradition)
• 29:42-30:49 - Peter’s legacy, links to modern Russia and Putin

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Tone & Style

The episode blends dramatic historical narrative with engrossing expert commentary, combining vivid anecdotes (“the Drunken All Jesting assembly,” Peter’s disastrous rental in London) with clear, accessible analysis of why these cultural ruptures mattered. The tone is lively and inquisitive, balancing humor about Peter’s outlandish style with sober explanations of his authoritarian legacy.

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Conclusion

“Shaving Russia” illustrates how one ruler’s dramatic choices—sometimes seeming bizarre, often brutal—helped wrench an isolated, conservative power onto the global stage. The podcast makes clear that Peter the Great’s razor was about far more than facial hair: it was about forging a new national identity, recasting the state, and creating enduring models of Russian power that shape the world to this day.

Transcript

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The History Channel Original Podcast.

[Sally Helm]

History this week, September 5th, 1698 I'm Sally Helm. The first man to lose his beard is the commander of the army. Next up, a childhood friend of the Tsar. And then all of the noblemen assembled, one after the other, get their beards chopped off by none other than the Tsar himself. The men had come out this morning just to welcome their leader home. Peter the Great has returned to Moscow after a year long tour of Europe. He got in last night and so his friends and supporters showed up today to pay their respects. Many of them are boyars, the most Important and wealthy members of the Russian elite. Some are religious officials or royal advisors. None of them are expecting Peter to pull out a barber's razor and hold it to their throats. This is intimidating. The Tsar is very tall, six foot seven. He towers over the assembled bearded boyars. Peter himself is clean shaven, which is the fashion in Europe. And in fact, that's why he's doing this. He thinks that the long beards all around him represent the old Russia. He wants to ring in the new. And so this morning, thanks to Peter's razor, long beards are falling into the street as the confused noblemen look around and see new faces emerging from beneath collective decades of beard. Peter does stop short of shaving a few faces. The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church is there and he gets a pass. Beards have a religious significance in Russia, a serious one. They're tied to piety and self respect. The apostles wore beards. In many depictions, God himself is shown with a beard. Tsar Ivan the Terrible put it this to shave the beard is a sin that the blood of all the martyrs cannot cleanse. So as they walk away with their freshly shaved faces, these men know that something deadly serious has occurred.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

What this was was creating a clean fleet to introduce something new. Peter realized that in order to transform Russia, you had to get rid of these old traditions and superstitions. And doing so required something which to us in the 21st century seems to be rather silly. But for Russians, it was fundamental and it was tied to identity.

[Sally Helm]

Today, Peter the Great essentially holds a razor to the throat of Russia and says westernize or else. How did Peter almost single handedly drag his country onto the world stage? And how did these beard shaving theatrics help lead to the Russia that we know today?

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[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

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[Sally Helm]

Professor Lynn Hartnett has been interested in Russia since she was a kid.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

I blame the nuns at my Catholic school. The nuns were Polish, so we used to pray for the liberation of the Poles from the Soviets all the time. And I think I'm just an inherently dramatic person. So I just loved the idea of what was happening in the Soviet Union. And it's big and it's bold and it's dramatic.

[Sally Helm]

Russia has had a number of rulers, big and bold and dramatic enough to earn a special moniker. There was Nicholas the Bloodstained, Ivan the Terrible, and of course, Peter the Great. Russia in the centuries before Peter's reign was vast, cold, and largely undeveloped.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

So in the mid 17th century, Russia was one of the biggest countries in the world, but it was also one of the least populated.

[Sally Helm]

I'm picturing like people in fur hats, like farming on vast tracts of isolated land. Do I have it right? What should we be seeing in our mind's eye?

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

You have it exactly right. That's exactly what it was. People live in these isolated ways. Peasants lived in these huts. They would have the stove in the center of the the room, and that was the great place for people to sleep. So grandma and grandpa would often get the spot right by the stove to keep it warm. Conditions were terrible. It was a grueling life.

[Sally Helm]

Many of these people were serfs, peasants who were bound to the land where they worked. The nobles who owned that land, meanwhile, lived in the cities. The richest and most powerful nobles lived in the capital, Moscow. That was where the Tsar and his family were in the Kremlin, surrounded by the boyars and various top military and civic leaders. Now, at this time, the Russian Church rivals the royal family as a major power in the country. They also have a big presence in the capital.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

If you go to the Moscow Kremlin today, what you're struck by the first time you go are all these beautiful domed cathedrals. They blend the style that that you would see in Byzantium, but with a very Russian flavor.

[Sally Helm]

Byzantium. The Russians think of themselves as inheritors of the great legacy of the Byzantine Empire. They call themselves the Third Rome. The second was Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, and the first was Rome. Russia thinks of itself as this elite sort of chosen nation, but at the same time, they aren't participating much on the world stage.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Even though Russia is enormous and extends across what's now 11 time zones, they were essentially landlocked.

[Sally Helm]

Sweden in the northwest, blocks their access to the Baltic Sea. The Ottoman Empire in the southwest, cuts off the Black Sea.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

And then to the north, their working port is only usable for three months out of the year. Other than that, it was iced over.

[Sally Helm]

No water access means no navy, which in terms of military power, really cuts them off at the knees. And partly because of their isolation, Russia also misses out on some of the cultural and technological changes that are happening in Europe.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

They don't take part in the Renaissance, they don't take part in the scientific revolution. And so they are, in many ways, living on this enormous landlocked island, thinking themselves better than the foreigners who have a military and economic advantage over them.

[Sally Helm]

So huge, isolated, and a few steps behind the rest of Europe. This is the Russia into which Peter the Great is born. He spends his childhood in Moscow. He's the son of the second wife of the Tsar, and he has several older half brothers and half sisters. So he's not first in line to take over as ruler.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

His father died relatively early, and so Peter's oldest half brother became the Tsar. His name was Fyodor and Fyodor was smart, but he was only 14 years old.

[Sally Helm]

So Fyodor's mother's family steps in to advise him. Remember, they're half brothers. This isn't Peter's mom.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

So when that happens, Peter and his mother, Natalia, are kind of pushed aside. They move to the outskirts of the city, ironically to this place called the Foreign Quarter, where many foreigners lived.

[Sally Helm]

Peter's mother, Natalia, was raised in a very pro Western household, and he spends part of his childhood in a rare section of Russia that has a ton of forest foreign influence.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Meanwhile, Fyodor was actually not in good health, so he ruled for six years, and then he died. Well, what should happen then is that his next brother, Ivan, should take over.

[Sally Helm]

But Ivan suffers from physical and mental disabilities. So in 1682, the powers that be decide that Peter will take over instead. Not everyone in the family is thrilled.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Peter had an older sister by the name of Sophia, and Sophia was not very happy about the situation. Sophia wanted to have power herself. And what we believe happened is that she started spreading rumors. There were these personal bodyguards to the Tsar who were called Streltsi. And what seems to have happened is someone started to spread spread rumors among the Streltsi that Peter and Peter's family had murdered his older half brother, Ivan.

[Sally Helm]

Ivan is, in fact, alive. But people get suspicious on this one.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Day, these angry crowds go down to the Kremlin demanding to see the young boys, the heirs to the throne. And they'll come, and they're killing people on the way. They get to the Kremlin, and Peter's mother, Natalia, who's still relatively young herself, in an effort to try to appease the crowd, brings both Peter and Ivan out onto the balcony. And the people, they start to calm down, but not before they grab Peter's uncle and they murder him. And then this, who was one of the closest advisors, who was actually standing right next to Peter, his brother Ivan and Natalia on this balcony, and they grab this man, they throw him over the balcony, and he is impaled on the Streltzi spears below.

[Sally Helm]

Peter is just 10 years old. A lot of scholars think that this moment, plus his upbringing in the Foreign Quarter, have a huge impact on the way that he will rule Russia in the years to come.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

But first, what happens in the aftermath of this is that there's a decision that Ivan and Peter will rule as Khazars, with Ivan being the senior czar, Peter being the junior czar.

[Sally Helm]

Their sister Sophia steps in as regent for the time being. And so young Peter isn't that involved in the day to day business of being a czar.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He was the co czar and so he had every material advantage you could ever want. But he also had this degree of freedom that doesn't normally happen.

[Sally Helm]

That freedom allows him to get into some exploits.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Oh, Peter was something else. Peter liked to have fun, and a little bit too much fun. He formed his friends into a group called the All Drunken All Jesting assembly. And they just raised havoc. By all accounts, they drank copious amounts of alcohol and it was not uncommon for people to just pass out left and right. At some of his gatherings with his.

[Sally Helm]

Friends, Peter also has a chance to indulge his interests. He becomes obsessed with boats and the navy. He teaches himself to sail, not a common skill in a landlocked country. And he's obsessed with military might. With his friends, he'd play these games.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He would form them into mock military units. They have mock battles and literally fight to the death.

[Sally Helm]

Literally to the death. It wasn't like Peter was running around killing his friends intentionally. But these rowdy teenage games got very out of hand. When Peter becomes tsar, that rowdiness will give way to cruelty. He eventually has his own son killed for treason, but that's a different story. He rises to power in 1696 when his brother Ivan dies. Peter's in his mid-20s and he's finally able to pursue his obsession with military expansion. Peter really wants a Russian navy, but he's facing down two tough opponents, the Ottoman Turks and the Swedes. At the time, both are among the greatest military powers in the world. So Peter will need some help if he wants to make his naval dreams come true.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

What he decides to do is to go to Europe to find and recruit allies. And in addition, he believes that while he's there, he's going to bring people with him to learn some of the trades, crafts and skills that Western Europeans seem to be so proficient at, and also to recruit some Western experts to come back to Russia.

[Sally Helm]

The tour is called the Great Embassy. Peter will travel around with a big entourage of about 250 people. They'll be gone for a year and a half. He is the first Tsar ever to take this kind of peacetime trip to Europe just to travel and learn. And he decides that he wants to fly under the radar.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He goes in disguise because he believes that he'll be able to dispense with formality this way. So when monarchs would travel, there was a lot of pageantry that was associated with it. And although there were times that Peter wanted those to take place, and he does. In trying to secure allies, there are other points that he just doesn't want to have to deal with it. And so he goes not as Zod, Peter the Great of Russia, he goes as Peter Mikhailov, along with 250 of his closest friends. The big question oftentimes was which member of this 250 member retinue was actually Peter the Great?

[Sally Helm]

Okay, so he's not in disguise, like wearing a fake mustache or something. He's like, like has a different name and identity that he's assumed and he's in this big group of people so he can kind of like pass unnoticed is the idea. That's exactly it.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Yep.

[Sally Helm]

It doesn't always work because he's 6 foot 7, but he tries. He travels through Sweden, Germany, then the Netherlands.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He spent four months there living as a carpenter, learning how to build ships. And by all accounts, it was one of the best periods of his life.

[Sally Helm]

Then he goes to England, attends a session of Parliament, tours the Greenwich Observatory, trashes a rental house on the Thames with his friends. And through all this, Peter is learning about advancements in military and navy technology, in science, in the arts. He also meets with foreign leaders and goes to fancy parties.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

When Peter was at one of his first balls in the Germanies, the first woman he danced with, he was taken aback by what she felt like. And she later said that it was funny because he didn't know what to make of her corset, which were made out of whale bones. She said she wondered if he was curious if Western European women were built differently than Russian women were.

[Sally Helm]

In general, Peter is noticing that people in Europe dress differently from the people at home.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

In Russia, men and women dressed for the elements. So they'd have these long half down coats, they'd have leather boots and almost tunics, right?

[Sally Helm]

The European elites aren't quite so practical.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

So they'd have patent leather shoes and lace collars and short jackets. And it just looks so much crisper.

[Sally Helm]

At least that's Peter's take. And he zeroes in, particularly on the beards, or really on the lack of beards.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

When he looks at the men who are clean shaven, he thought they just looked so much more modern. And it's his idea that if Russia wants to be more European, if they want to be more modern, they have to look more modern.

[Sally Helm]

In 1698, Peter's trip ends in a hurry. There are rumors of a rebellion back home. So he goes back to Moscow and immediately he sharpens his razors.

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[Sally Helm]

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[Sally Helm]

The day after Peter returns from his great embassy, his first major public act is to shave off the beards of the Russian elites. Remember, he is doing this himself with a dry razor. It leaves scrapes and cuts in some places. These men have had their beards for a long time and they are taken.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Aback because to a Russian man their beard was part of their identity.

[Sally Helm]

This is more than a haircut and everyone knows.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Seems like this is just a superficial thing and it is silly and almost kitschy. But it was something so much more than that because it's what it represented.

[Sally Helm]

Particularly because shaving is a sin. Beards are religiously Important.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

But Peter believed that the Russian people were just stuck in the past, that superstitions held them back. And beards were part of that. This idea that you had to maintain this long beard to be in the image of God, to have salvation. And so this is the first, because if you put aside superstitions, then you can open your mind to the future.

[Sally Helm]

After that first public beard shaving, Peter goes even further. A few days later, at a banquet celebrating Moscow's New Year, the court jester weaves his way among the guests, shaving off any beards in sight. If someone refuses, he boxes their ears. One observer wrote, quote, between mirth and the wine cup, many were admonished by this insane ridicule to abandon their old guys. This new fashion is happening among the elites, but it doesn't really reach the common people, which just creates a wider gap between the haves and the have nots.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

The peasants, those who worked the lambs, which, if we remember, were 90% of the population and priests, were permitted to keep their beards. But as time went on, if anyone decided to travel to town, even if they were a member of the peasantry class and were coming to town, if they had a beard, they had to pay what was called a beard tax.

[Sally Helm]

A beard tax. You can keep your beard if you pay a fine. Men would wear a little coin around their neck to signify that they've paid the beard dues. The coin had a little beard and mustache imprinted on it. So the Russian elites are starting to look more and more like the European elites. And at the same time, Peter is implementing other big reforms, a major push towards Westernization. He overhauls the Russian economy, trying to stimulate agriculture and industry and commerce.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He creates the first universities, the first newspapers, the first printing presses in Russia.

[Sally Helm]

There are also cultural reforms.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

He stipulates that men and women of the noble classes need to socialize at least twice a week.

[Sally Helm]

He changes marriage. Previously, there had been a lot of arranged marriage.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

Peter instituted a policy whereby betrothals could last up to six weeks, that women and men who were to be married were allowed to see each other before the wedding, and that either side could call off the wedding if they chose.

[Sally Helm]

Peter even changes the way that Russians count the calendar. On the Russian Orthodox calendar, the year had been 7207, but Peter wanted to get on the Julian calendar, which was still a little behind the rest of Europe. They had moved on to the Gregorian calendar, but it was at least much closer. So one day it was no longer 7207. It was January 1, 1700. As he's introducing all these reforms, he's also consolidating power, reducing the power of the noble class, the boyars, and most importantly, wresting power away from the Russian Orthodox Church.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

It's not that he is anti religious, he just believes that the church should be subordinate to the state.

[Sally Helm]

And so he makes that happen. During his reign, he's able to fold the church into his administration. They sit under him now, not alongside him. Peter's Westernization push also changes diplomacy. He gains more allies in Europe. He implements a new military training program, and he's finally able to defeat Sweden and achieve his dream of having warm water ports and therefore a navy.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

It allows Russia to become a global power. And that global power just gains over the course of the 18th century.

[Sally Helm]

So Peter's modernization campaign really brings Russia onto the world stage. They get a seat at the table in Europe and perhaps most importantly, Peter kind of creates the Russian cultural concept of a single strong leader who feels empowered to dictate almost every aspect of life.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

A strong authoritarian ruler, a strong autocrat who was able to intervene in people's lives in the most seemingly minute ways. Whether that was forcing a man to shave his beard, wear a French style coat, or whether it was him decreeing that the whole Russian Orthodox Church was going to be transformed.

[Sally Helm]

After Peter, Russia is no longer this isolated, landlocked nation. And his rule has long lasting consequences.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

It's hard to imagine today's Russia had there not been a Peter the Great. Putin, in speech after speech, has alluded to the fact that that Russia did not begin its history in 1917 or 1991, that it goes back a thousand years.

[Sally Helm]

If Peter the Great hadn't overhauled the Russian military and made allies in Europe, maybe the Russians wouldn't have helped defeat the Nazis. If he hadn't opened the door to technological exchange with the rest of the world, maybe there would have been no space race. And maybe without Peter, we don't get authoritarian rulers like Joseph Stalin and even Vladimir Putin.

[Professor Lynn Hartnett]

This is something that Putin identifies with. He understands this idea of a strong man who will not tolerate any opposition, who in order to protect their prestige on the world stage, needs to push the boundaries, literally and figuratively, by intervening in the politics of neighboring countries and others.

[Sally Helm]

So there's a line to be drawn from the Russia of today, a major player on the world stage, back to that day in 1698 when a 6 foot 7 autocrat with a razor stepped into a crowd of bearded nobles and created by force the new face of of Russia. Thanks for listening to History this Week. For more moments throughout history that are also worth watching. Check your local TV listings to find out what's on History Today. And if you don't have cable, you can sign up for a free trial of history [e-mail] this episode was produced by McKamey Lin. History this Week is also produced by Julie Magruder, Ben Dickstein and me, Sally Helm. Our researcher is Emma Fredricks. Our editor and sound designer is Chris Boniello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz and Ted Butler. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review History this Week wherever you get your podcasts and we will see you next week.