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HISTORY This Week
The Forgotten Life & Tragic Death of President James Garfield | A Conversation with ‘Death by Lightning’ Creator Mike Makowsky
00:36:10
How a forgotten president’s fight against corruption was overshadowed by his shocking assassination.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:01]
Ray Winstone
The History Channel original podcast history this.
- [01:06]
Sally Helm
Week, November 3rd, 1880 I'm Sally Helm. Early morning on a 160 acre farm in Mentor, Ohio. The farmhouse has a picturesque red roof and a wraparound porch. And inside it this morning, Congressman James Garfield wakes up with a sense of unease. Last night, Garfield hardly slept. He went to bed around 3am when it was clear that the presidential election was still too close to call. But now, in light of day, Garfield gets an update. He is going to be the 20th of President of the United States. One reporter notes that the congressman is, quote, the coolest man in the room when he hears the news. Because James Garfield is, in fact, not all that happy. He never planned to be president. He never campaigned to be on the ticket. And yet a few months back, he was chosen in a surprise upswell of delegate support to be the Republican nominee for president. And the public has gotten on board in a big way. Voters were excited by his commitment to civil rights and to stamping out government corruption. And now they've put him in the White House even if he'd rather stay on the farm. Garfield writes to a friend, there is a tone of sadness running through this triumph, which I can hardly explain. He has become a reluctant president.
- [02:55]
History This Week Host
And.
- [02:55]
Sally Helm
Today he's a relatively unknown president. Because despite the fact that Garfield lands in the White House with a strong mandate for reform, he doesn't get to do much. Four months after his inauguration, he's shot by A man with delusions of grandeur who had once been Garfield's biggest fan. President Garfield dies and ends up in the dustbin of history. But screenwriter Mike Makowski says Garfield's story deserves another look, which is why he's spent the last six years bringing the 20th president's story to life.
- [03:37]
Mike Makowski
It's incredibly tragic and sad. And the fact that James Garfield is just one more footnote, one more obscure bearded face on a wall sans context like, is a tragedy because had he been able to deliver on his ambitions and hopes for our country, might have affected real positive change and gone down as one of our greatest presidents. But he never got the chance. He was shot in the back. About 100 days into his presidency.
- [04:11]
Sally Helm
Today, a conversation with Mike Makowski, executive producer and showrunner of the new series Death by Lightning. What was so exciting about this president that we now barely remember? And what is there to learn from his story's tragic end?
- [04:36]
History This Week Host
Mike Makowski, welcome to history this week.
- [04:39]
Mike Makowski
Thank you so much for having me.
- [04:41]
History This Week Host
So you are the EP and the showrunner for this new show that's coming out on Netflix that is called Death by Lightning. So tell us just very briefly to start, what is this show about?
- [04:51]
Mike Makowski
It is a four episode limited series about the assassination of our 20th president, James Garfield, in 1881.
- [05:00]
History This Week Host
The assassination of James Garfield. It's not a prominent assassination. It's not one people tend to know about.
- [05:09]
Mike Makowski
Yeah. I have to confess that I did not personally know a ton about James Garfield prior to picking up Candace Millard's book Destiny of the Republic at my local Barnes and Noble at a buy two get one free table.
- [05:22]
History This Week Host
Oh, my gosh. Was it the buy two get one free that got you, or how did you get drawn to that particular book?
- [05:27]
Mike Makowski
You know what? I was familiar with Candace's work a little bit. I'd read another book of hers and I looked at the back cover and I realized that I didn't know much, if anything, about James Garfield or his unfortunate assassination. And I would like to be on Jeopardy one day perhaps. And I thought I better educate myself. And I ended up reading the book in one sitting. I was completely blown away by it and just floored that this story had actually happened. And I knew next to nothing about it going in. I kept going on Wikipedia because it just sounded way too crazy to be true. Like, I would have heard about this, right? And it was never my ambition to want to adapt history specifically, but after I finished the book, I knew I had to try because the story was just way, way Way too insane to be believed.
- [06:21]
History This Week Host
We're going to get into some of the insanity, some of what goes on in this story. I'll say. My association with James Garfield was.
- [06:29]
Sally Helm
When I was growing up, we had.
- [06:30]
History This Week Host
A placemat of the US Presidents, like at the dinner table. And we would look through it. In the beginning, it's like Washington, Jefferson, of course, of course. Adams, of course, of course. And then partway through line two, you get to like James Garfield, Chester A. Arthur, and you're just like, who? And you know nothing about them.
- [06:48]
Mike Makowski
No, I think to most Americans they're very much just anonymous portraits on a wall that, you know, devoid of any real context. And it was a real privilege to be able to tell their story. And I believe it's eminently worth telling.
- [07:12]
History This Week Host
Well, let's do it. I mean, let's start with Garfield himself. I want to meet him a little bit as a person. The series, it picks up as he is rising to the presidency, which is an insane story of its own. But let's start before that. I mean, tell me, who was he?
- [07:26]
Sally Helm
How did he grow up?
- [07:27]
History This Week Host
What kind of man was he?
- [07:28]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, James Garfield was born in Ohio, abject poverty. He was working as a canal boy on a riverboat. Nearly died of malaria as a kid. But he was brilliant. I mean, he, he would invent math theorems in his spare time. He was a polyglot. He attended his local university and worked as a knight custodian in order to pay his tuition and really kind of worked his way up the ladder through grit and determination. He served in the Civil War as a Union soldier. He rose to the rank of major general. He fought at Shiloh and Middle Creek and a bunch of really important battles. And he was a congressman from Ohio at the time of the 1880 Republican National Convention.
- [08:19]
History This Week Host
I often ask historians when I interview them, like, what would this person have been like to be in a room with? And for someone like you, I mean, you literally had to conjure Garfield, put him as an actor in a room. So how would you answer that question? Like, what was his energy like?
- [08:35]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, my sense is, at least at first blush, that this was like a true lawful good. Like he was a very, very noble, kind hearted, empathetic man. He had five kids, or, sorry, he'd had seven. Unfortunately, two died at a young age. But, yeah, very much like a family man on his farm in Mentor, Ohio. And, you know, he engages with important issues of his day and is not afraid to have unpopular opinions. I think there are limits to that, unfortunately. Still, a man of his era. But, yeah, by and large, sure. Kind of guy you'd want to grab a beer with.
- [09:16]
History This Week Host
Okay, so I'm getting the sense this pure, lawful, good, kind of like, I don't know, outdoorsy guy hanging out on riverboats. He fought in the war. Like, seems like a gentle soul. What are Garfield's politics like? Like, what does he believe in?
- [09:31]
Mike Makowski
He's incredibly progressive, uncommonly so for his era. A big proponent of civil rights and of civil service reform was his. One of his main major causes. He believed in tamping out the spoils system. Patronage had sort of taken hold of Washington. People were getting jobs who were not necessarily qualified just based on the strength of their relationships with people in power.
- [09:59]
History This Week Host
And this was a new thing or a bigger thing at this time.
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Mike Makowski
It was sort of the height of machine politics in our country. And he was a big proponent of the meritocracy, I guess you'd call it. I think that the shadow of the Civil War and Southern secession really loomed large. Even still, it had only been about 15 years since the war had ended and Lincoln's assassination a week after the war ended. And I think in large part as a country, we were kind of grasping at straws trying to define who we were. And yeah, I mean, in terms of patronage and spoils specifically, machine politics had really kind of taken hold both in Washington and New York. And, you know, the kind of stuff that you would see in movies like Gangs of New York. It's not too far off from what Garfield was experiencing during his day. You know, our. Our government was unfortunately rife with a lot of grift and corruption.
- [11:02]
History This Week Host
And Grant was president, so he's this war hero. But had he gotten caught up in this corruption? President Ulysses S. Grant.
- [11:08]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, you know, I think Grant himself was not necessarily a corrupt individual, but his administration was marred by a lot of corruption. A number of his cabinet secretaries, I believe, had been caught up in some crazy financial scandals and schemes. And while he was this obviously very impressive war hero, I think he had a mixed record. And I think a lot of that was due to his adherence to spoils and patronage. And then between him, there was one term of Rutherford Hayes, our 19th president, another portrait on the wall. And after Hayes elected not to run for a second term, in part because he just didn't have the support of his party, Grant's sort of grudgingly raised his hand again and said, I'm ready to serve again if my nation calls upon me.
- [12:07]
History This Week Host
So here we find ourselves then at the Republican Convention of 1880. In Chicago, James Garfield shows up. Tell me what happens. I mean, it's the centerpiece of the first episode, and it's this crazy story. So what goes on?
- [12:21]
Mike Makowski
Ulysses Grant was widely considered the frontrunner for obvious reasons. So Garfield is there to nominate a spoiler candidate, John Sherman, who is William Tecumseh Sherman's brother. He was the Secretary of Treasury at the time. No one on Earth thought that Sherman was getting that nomination. He was there just to speak for the other side and offer a differing vision. Grant's campaign was run by a man named Roscoe Conkling, who was the senator from New York. And Conkling goes up and he gives a rousing speech in support of Grant. Not much of a political platform, really, just sort of coasting on the currency of Grant's previous glories. So I don't think that there's any reason that Garfield would have ever believed that he could even cause a ripple in that pond. But he gets up on stage in front of 10,000 delegates and onlookers, and he delivers a really passionate oratory, a speech that presents a really potent vision for the future of our country. While acknowledging the trauma of our past, he speaks very eloquently about the need for civil rights. Rights actions. And people are so inspired. You know, initially, just one guy, allegedly up in the rafter, shouts, we want Garfield.
- [13:49]
History This Week Host
Hmm. After this speech. But he's not running.
- [13:51]
Mike Makowski
He's not running. So everything kind of stops for a moment, and he kind of wraps up his speech. And it's sort of awkward, right, because he's there to give a speech for John Sherman. It felt very much like in Obama in 2004, the DNC moment, where it's just like, well, who is this guy? And there was a lot of political logjam among the various different nominees. There was Grant, and there was a guy named James Blaine, who was the leader of his own faction within the Republican Party. And then there was John Sherman. Then there were a handful of others. And after the first vote, the delegates couldn't reach a consensus. And lo and behold, we get to, like, vote 35. The delegates are there for days on end, and it's very clear that Grant is not going to win a majority of these delegates. Neither can any of the others. There's a lot of personal vendettas and egos at play, and there's a lot of weird gamesmanship going on in the hallways of the convention center. And all of a sudden, the dam bursts, but it bursts for a guy who's was never on the ballot to.
- [15:02]
History This Week Host
Begin with, and delegates just start voting for Garfield.
- [15:05]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, it's like a weird sort of almost religious zeal about them. They all just start transferring their votes over to Garfield. Not all of them. You know, Grant still has a sizable contingent that doesn't waver from him. But even the delegates from New York, people within Roscoe Conkling's own faction start to transfer their votes over to Garfield. They're sick of being in this convention hall for hours and days on end. And Garfield has sort of put himself forth by giving this speech. Like, everyone just starts thinking, well, what about that guy? That guy seems pretty great. And though he insists he will not accept the nomination, he ends up winning a majority of the votes.
- [15:47]
History This Week Host
He becomes the nominee, the Republican nominee for president in 1880.
- [15:51]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, it's a sort of crazy. You know, I think his story really was emblematic of the best of America, you know, coming up from nothing and working your way up and fighting for what you believe in. And he. He seemed pretty great on paper. And I think that the delegates were faced with a lot of flawed candidates, and Garfield was the shiny new object.
- [16:18]
History This Week Host
It really does seem in the series like. Like he is torn.
- [16:24]
Sally Helm
Like, he really does come across as.
- [16:25]
History This Week Host
A man who honestly didn't want this truly, as you say, is a lawful good, is just like, going for what's best for the country. Like, he didn't mean for this to happen. And yet, you know, there's like, a little question in the series of, like, well, do you give a speech like that and you're really not going for it at all? What's your take? Like, do you think that he really did kind of just like, blunder into this? Or did part of him want the power, the glory, or the presidency?
- [16:54]
Mike Makowski
I think it's a little bit of a facile interpretation to just assume that he had absolutely zero designs on anything greater than his current station. Because I don't think you go up and you give a speech like that if you don't crave it just slightly. And not saying that he ever in a million years thought that he was going to be nominated for president off of that speech. But I think he wanted to be seen, you know, I think he wanted to be heard. There was definitely a part of him that relished the opportunity of standing in front of those 10,000 onlookers and saying something that resonated with people and being the one to say it.
- [17:37]
Sally Helm
When we return, James Garfield wins the 1880 election by a hair. But his victory in spite of inspires an unlikely admirer, Charles Guiteau, his future assassin.
- [17:56]
Ray Winstone
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
- [18:27]
History This Week Host
Let's turn now to the other main character in this series, Garfield's assassin, Charles Guiteau. And we know from the beginning that these two men are gonna intersect. But let's go back a bit. We where does Guiteau come from? Like, what's his story? How has he come to be in the place he finds himself?
- [18:46]
Mike Makowski
Guiteau was kind of a man from nowhere and everywhere. He had lived in a handful of states, trying his hand at a number of different careers, including being an attorney. He started his own speaking tour. He lived for a time among the Oneidas, America's first free love commune in upstate New York. And he was essentially, to reduce it to these terms, the one guy at the sex commune who couldn't get laid because he refused to do the manual labor that was required of him. On this commune, he. He was born with these sort of delusions of grandeur and believed that he was destined for greatness and had a kind of haughty air about him. And eventually he sort of left the commune and he was in and out of debtors prisons over the years and sort of living in the cracks of the system and had always had political aspirations of his own. And when he first heard about Garfield and Garfield's improbable rise from security to fame, I think he was inspired. He saw a lot of himself in this man.
- [19:59]
History This Week Host
Yeah, no, it seems like he was really inspired by Garfield.
- [20:03]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, no, no, no, he was incredibly inspired and started campaigning the streets for him. And he actually secured a very, very minor speaking spot at a rally for Garfield in New York.
- [20:18]
History This Week Host
And in fact, there are a bunch of times where he like, shakes Garfield's.
- [20:21]
Sally Helm
Hand, sneaks into a party, talks to.
- [20:23]
History This Week Host
His wife, shows up at the campaign headquarters, talks to people working on the campaign. Did those show up in the historical record at all? Like, is there evidence that their paths actually did keep crossing during this time?
- [20:34]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, for sure. There's maybe one or two inventions there, but yeah, I mean, he would just sort of break into places or show up at the campaign headquarters. He was very, very, very persistent to the point of annoying a lot of people in Garfield's inner circle and whether Garfield really ever processed that this man exists. Guiteau was able to secure one meeting with Garfield after Garfield became president. At the time, presidents basically conducted open office hours from 10 to 1 every day and any constituent and seek favor with his president. The president was just thought to be an emissary of the people, was not believed to need his own security. There was no secret service at the time. In fact, when his wife Lucretia suggested, hey, maybe we should pay for some private security, some sort of protection detail for you. You are the President of the United States. And who knows who could walk through the door of this place. He replied, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Assassination could be no more guarded against than death by lightning. And so Guiteau was one of these many seekers who would show up day in and day out in the waiting room of what was then called the Executive Mansion and was able to at one point speak with Garfield for just a very brief period of time during which he did not get the job placements that he believed that he was owed for helping get Garfield elected.
- [22:05]
History This Week Host
Hmm. So that's kind of his goal. He's looking for some patronage himself, some spoils?
- [22:10]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, no, he believes that his proper place would be a consulship in Paris or perhaps Vienna.
- [22:17]
History This Week Host
I mean, it's interesting. He does seem like a person who has, as you say, delusions of grandeur, like maybe some mental illness of some kind going on.
- [22:27]
Mike Makowski
Yeah.
- [22:28]
History This Week Host
I mean, did it seem like a sort of recognizable kind of insanity or.
- [22:33]
Sally Helm
Delusion to you that he had?
- [22:35]
History This Week Host
Like, how do people describe that side of him at the time? Like, is he sort of seen as odd and off by the people around him?
- [22:42]
Mike Makowski
Yeah, I think he is very much out of step with his society and exhibits, let's say, a fervor or a passion that alienates him from his fellow men. I think people find him weird, off putting, disorienting by today's standards. I believe he would be classified as mentally ill. And this is a man who's just been beaten down and ignored and believes that he deserves to be hurt. And for better or worse, nobody in Garfield's orbit listens to him or hears him or engages with him. And in fact, they begin actively rebuffing him as he continues to persist.
- [23:27]
History This Week Host
So as Charles Couteau is kind of like around the edges of the administration, Garfield is trying to do stuff like his first months in office, he's trying to clean things up. And one person standing in his way kind of is his vice president.
- [23:41]
Mike Makowski
Correct.
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History This Week Host
Chester A. Arthur. Who is this, like. I mean, and he. I really want to paint a picture of him in part because he's maybe like, my most on the placemat of presidents. Like, who is Chester A. Arthur? Like, what a name. So who is he? Who is this guy? What was his deal?
- [23:58]
Mike Makowski
Chester A. Arthur had never held any elected office prior to being nominated on the ticket alongside Garfield. He was a customs collector, the chief customs collector for the Port of New York, basically a crony for the New York political machine. Ended up being nominated for vice president almost by accident. And I don't think anyone ever sincerely believed that he would have to do anything, because at the time, a vice president didn't really have very many responsibilities. It was really the secretary of state's purview to help the president run the country. And the vice president was really just sort of glorified political appointee. And Arthur, kind of over the course of the story, I think, in part because of his interactions with a man like Garfield, kind of becomes convinced of his better angels and sees the light for the first time in a very, very long time.
- [25:05]
History This Week Host
So, I mean, that arc is getting off the ground with Garfield in these first months of his administration. He's really doing what he came to do. He's trying to clean things up. He's encountering this opposition. The machine politics are obviously strong. He's trying to get his agenda passed. And it feels like he's kind of just starting to achieve liftoff.
- [25:25]
Mike Makowski
Sure.
- [25:26]
History This Week Host
When, of course, he and Guiteau, their paths do cross in a train station.
- [25:32]
Mike Makowski
Spoiler alert.
- [25:33]
History This Week Host
Yeah. And things go south.
- [25:38]
Sally Helm
Up next, a dark end for James Garfield and how things might have been different.
- [25:55]
History This Week Host
I am curious. This is obviously the key scene of the series. You said, spoiler alert. Like, we do all know what's coming the whole time. And I'm curious, what was it like to stage that scene, to sort of really watch this moment when history takes a sudden turn?
- [26:12]
Mike Makowski
It was a really, really strange day on set, you know, to restage this assassination. It was very meaningful, but it was also just like a very, very dark and sad day. It felt weighty in its own way. And I think everyone on set, the crew, the cast, like, it felt like we were. Yeah. Just bringing this really, really sad, tragic moment back to life.
- [26:38]
Sally Helm
Yeah.
- [26:38]
History This Week Host
What do you make of it? I guess now, to take yourself out of the moment of being on set to now like, it's such a senseless act by a person who does seem to have been pretty delusional. Like, the whole time you're like, no, this didn't have to happen. It just really feels like it didn't have to happen. And it feels, in that way, kind of meaningless. Like, what meaning do you make of it? Like, how do you see it as important?
- [27:03]
Mike Makowski
Obviously, political violence is never the answer, clearly, and never affects the change that the assassin thinks it's going to. But I think Guiteau genuinely believed that by killing Garfield, he would save the country, because he had been rebuffed so many times that the only conclusion that he could possibly draw was, was that Garfield had campaigned on false promises and that he wasn't here to save America, he was here to destroy it. And felt so betrayed by this man that he felt that he had to essentially remove him from the gene pool and that he would be celebrated for doing so. He believed that once Chester Arthur, who was a political opponent of Garfield's prior to becoming his vice president, once Chester Arthur had ascended to presidents, he would pardon Guiteau, in fact, celebrate him. Couteau believed in the moment that he shot Garfield that this was his own pathway to becoming president one day, which obviously is delusional and, you know, speaks to his illness.
- [28:13]
History This Week Host
One of the really frustrating things about your series, Mike, is that you have to sort of take us through this just excruciating period after he's shot where it's like, he could have been okay. Like, he could have been okay.
- [28:26]
Mike Makowski
He would have lived and.
- [28:27]
History This Week Host
Yeah, he would have lived. And so, I mean, tell me about how the sort of medical system of the time comes in here at this key moment.
- [28:35]
Mike Makowski
You know, there were a lot of veterans of the Civil War who were walking around in the 1880s with bullets in them still. Just because you were shot and you couldn't get the bullet out, that didn't necessarily mean that you were going to die. But I think once Garfield had been shot, the impetus to remove the bullet at any cost ended up spelling his doom. Right. Like, the bullet did not hit any of his internal organs. It kind of like, nested behind the pancreas. And, yeah, the assassination itself wasn't necessarily going to be the thing that killed him. He would have probably healed his doctors. And specifically, one gem of a man, his actual first name was Doctor. His name is Doctor. Doctor Willard Bliss.
- [29:23]
History This Week Host
Doctor. Doctor. Okay.
- [29:25]
Mike Makowski
Yeah. He actually was one of the physicians who attended to Lincoln after Lincoln was shot. He was Garfield's chief physician during this Time and did not believe in sanitizing his equipment. In fact, he would often root his dirty fingers directly into Garfield's open wound bliss. At the time, did not believe in what he called invisible monsters, AKA germ theory. He found it to be a pseudoscience and basically just went with his tried and true methods of bare hand surgery. And you know, when Guiteau later went to trial, he said, I may have shot him, but I did not kill him. His doctors killed him. And he was right. Garfield didn't have to die. And he lived another two months after being shot. His body tried to fight, but ultimately could not withstand his own treatment.
- [30:27]
History This Week Host
I mean, we have been talking about Garfield as a footnote, who you have now elevated. Like people will get to know him through watching this series. So I mean, I guess make the case for me, Mike, in like the full throated way that this man deserves.
- [30:43]
Mike Makowski
Oh my gosh, what is it about.
- [30:44]
History This Week Host
Him that people should know? What kind of man was he and what kind of president could he have been?
- [30:49]
Mike Makowski
Garfield was one of the most progressive politicians of his era. He was noble, he was kind. He believed in the advancement of civil rights and of reforming our government, stamping out corruption, ending the spoil system once and for all. He was by all accounts just like a really decent human being. And so you can talk about his long term political resonance had he lived, and we can speculate on that, but I think what the show endeavors to portray is a human being who doesn't deserve to see his entire legacy just eradicated by an errant bullet by a Mad Men.
- [31:37]
History This Week Host
I mean, you've been working on this show for, for six years and it happens to be coming out at this moment of really heightened conversation about political violence and assassination. I mean, you and I are talking about two weeks after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. What parts of this story are kind of hitting you freshly now that it's coming out in this moment?
- [31:58]
Mike Makowski
I mean, certainly a lot of the conversation around political violence ends the just utter meaninglessness of it. You know, assassins who believe that, you know, one bullet can change history and, you know, it's perverse and it's upsetting and it's a conversation that was certainly playing out in 1881 in the wake of Garfield's assassination. But it is unfortunately as relevant a topic in 2025 as it was in 1881.
- [32:30]
History This Week Host
Does that. Does having like lived through that history via the series, does it make you think about the future differently? Like, does it make you think about the present differently?
- [32:41]
Mike Makowski
It's hard not to be cynical about the current state of politics. And I think one of the really special things about Garfield is that he, at least on the surface, presented an alternate kind of a politician who didn't necessarily raise their hand up and say, I alone can save the country. I mean, like, there's a lot of ego, I think, that goes into presidential politics in today's day and age. And there was something very refreshing about learning about Garfield, a man who, again, at least on the surface, held that ambition at arm's length and didn't actively court that leadership.
- [33:28]
History This Week Host
Yeah, it does feel so, so far from the types of politicians that we have now.
- [33:34]
Mike Makowski
Yeah. I mean, can you imagine today a James Garfield rising to the political 4 completely like germanely? It seems unfathomable, you know, but it happened. It happened. It was a thing that happened.
- [33:49]
Sally Helm
Mike Makowski is the creator and executive producer of Death by Lightning, a limited series premiering on Netflix November 6th. The series is based on the book Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard. History this Week is a Back Pocket Studios production in partnership with the History Channel. To stay updated on all things History this week, sign up@historythisweekpodcast.com and if you have any thoughts or questions, send us an email@historythisweekhistory.com this episode was produced by Corinne Wallace, produced and sound designed by Ben Dickstein and also produced by me, Sally Helm for Back Pocket Studios. Our executive producer is Ben Dickstein from the History Channel. Our executive producers are Eli Lehrer and Liv Fiddler. Don't forget to follow rate and review History this week, wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next week.