The Forgotten Mentor Who Inspired Louis Armstrong

Summary

HISTORY This Week: The Forgotten Mentor Who Inspired Louis Armstrong

Episode Release Date: June 23, 2025
Host: The HISTORY® Channel | Back Pocket Studios
Guest: Ricky Riccardi, Director of Research Collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum

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Introduction to Louis Armstrong and Joe "King" Oliver

In this episode of HISTORY This Week, host Sally Helm welcomes producer Ben Dickstein and distinguished guest Ricky Riccardi to delve into the profound relationship between jazz legend Louis Armstrong and his mentor, Joe "King" Oliver. This mentorship not only propelled Armstrong to stardom but also fundamentally transformed the landscape of jazz music.

Louis Armstrong's Early Years in New Orleans

Ricky Riccardi begins by painting a vivid picture of a young Louis Armstrong in New Orleans around 1915. At just 14 years old, Armstrong is seen outside Pete Lalla's Cafe in Storyville, a notorious neighborhood known for its vibrant yet tumultuous nightlife.

• Ricky Riccardi ([05:21]): "Louis Armstrong is 14 or 15 years old, delivering coal for the Karnovsky family to various illicit businesses in Storyville."

Despite the challenges of the era—marked by racial segregation and limited opportunities for African Americans—Armstrong's passion for music begins to take root.

The Fateful Encounter with Joe "King" Oliver

One pivotal night, while delivering coal, Armstrong overhears Joe Oliver, one of New Orleans' premier cornet players. This encounter ignites a spark that would shape Armstrong’s future.

• Ricky Riccardi ([06:48]): "Joe Oliver was like a father to him. And like any father-son relationship, there was a lot of love but also some tension."

Armstrong, initially not a serious musician and not in high demand, sees in Oliver a pathway to a better life through music.

Moving to Chicago: A New Beginning

In the summer of 1918, seeking better opportunities and escaping the rampant racism of the South, Joe Oliver relocates to Chicago. Shortly after, Armstrong receives a life-changing telegram from Oliver inviting him to join his band.

• Ricky Riccardi ([13:23]): "Lil and Louis eventually get married and she issues an ultimatum... This was the crossroads moment for Armstrong."

The move to Chicago marks the beginning of Armstrong's rise in the jazz scene, performing on riverboats and gaining popularity despite initial setbacks.

The Dynamic Relationship Between Armstrong and Oliver

Back in Chicago, Armstrong's talent begins to shine. However, the dynamics between mentor and mentee become complex as Armstrong grows more confident and musically independent.

• Ricky Riccardi ([21:37]): "Louis Armstrong still loves his mentor, but Hardin can see something he can't."

Lil Hardin, a classically trained pianist and Armstrong's wife, plays a crucial role in navigating this relationship. She recognizes Armstrong's potential and challenges the existing power dynamics, leading to pivotal changes in his career trajectory.

The Birth of a Jazz Icon: "West End Blues"

The episode culminates with the recording of "West End Blues" on June 28, 1928. Initially composed by Joe Oliver, Armstrong adds his unique touch, creating what is often hailed as "the most important 12 seconds in the history of jazz."

• Ricky Riccardi ([31:10]): "The opening of the record is an unaccompanied improvised trumpet cadenza... It's high art up there with Mozart and Bach."

This masterpiece not only cemented Armstrong's status as a jazz icon but also signified the shift from ensemble-based jazz to solo performances, revolutionizing the genre.

Legacy and Lasting Impact

Despite the eventual estrangement between Armstrong and Oliver, their relationship left an indelible mark on jazz history. Armstrong continued to honor Oliver throughout his life, both personally and professionally.

• Ricky Riccardi ([35:09]): "Louis Armstrong made sure to credit his mentor for his role in his success."

Armstrong’s later performances, especially at the Savoy Ballroom, showcased the profound influence of Oliver, with audiences celebrating Armstrong as a conquering hero of jazz.

Conclusion: A Tribute to a Mentor

The episode concludes by highlighting the enduring legacy of both Armstrong and Oliver. While Armstrong became a beloved American icon, Oliver’s contributions, though less widely recognized, were foundational in shaping one of jazz's greatest talents.

• Ricky Riccardi ([35:53]): "These two men have moved beyond musical rivalry. The final phase of their relationship is actually quite touching."

Armstrong’s heartfelt tribute to Oliver, encapsulated in his personal collages and continual acknowledgment of Oliver’s mentorship, underscores the deep respect and gratitude he felt towards his forgotten mentor.

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Notable Quotes

• Ricky Riccardi ([05:21]): "Louis Armstrong is 14 or 15 years old, delivering coal for the Karnovsky family to various illicit businesses in Storyville."

• Ricky Riccardi ([13:23]): "Lil and Louis eventually get married and she issues an ultimatum... This was the crossroads moment for Armstrong."

• Ricky Riccardi ([31:10]): "The opening of the record is an unaccompanied improvised trumpet cadenza... It's high art up there with Mozart and Bach."

• Ricky Riccardi ([35:09]): "Louis Armstrong made sure to credit his mentor for his role in his success."

---

Special Thanks:
A heartfelt thank you to our guest, Ricky Riccardi, author and Grammy Award winner, for providing invaluable insights into the early years of Louis Armstrong.

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Transcript

[Ben Dickstein]

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[Sally Helm]

History this week, June 28, 1928 Sally I'm Sally Helm. Today we have producer Ben Dickstein in the studio. Hello Ben.

[Ben Dickstein]

Hi Sally. And yes, today I'm gonna start by playing you a very famous recording. It was recorded on June 28, 1928 in Chicago in a studio that was owned by a company named OK Records. And they're ready to put out their next hit single. This one is called West End Blues. And the very first notes of this song, some people call it the most important 12 seconds in the history of jazz.

[Sally Helm]

Okay, well, sounds like we gotta hear it, then.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Let's do it.

[Sally Helm]

Wow, beautiful. It's like a sort of virtuosic trumpeter.

[Ben Dickstein]

Yeah, it's sort of like this jazzy fanfare. It grabs your attention. And that is the famous jazz trumpeter Louis Armstrong.

[Sally Helm]

Louis Armstrong, Okay. I've also heard Louis.

[Ben Dickstein]

Yeah, he called himself Louis, so we're gonna go with that. And when he records West End Blues.

[Ricky Riccardi]

He'S at the top of his game.

[Ben Dickstein]

It's the late 20s. He's already been on the scene for a while. But this recording is not just a watershed moment for him and his career. It's a big moment in the history of jazz. You could argue it kind of invents the jazz solo.

[Sally Helm]

It's funny to think of that being invented. I guess I kind of just thought it was always around.

[Ben Dickstein]

Yeah, that makes sense. But before this, jazz was kind of about the ensemble, the collective. But West End Blues changes things. It launches Louis Armstrong forward, it makes him a star, and it totally changes the entire genre. Now individual musicians start to become respected artists, not just an anonymous member of a band. But this recording, which is all about Louis Armstrong, it actually has quite a.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Crazy backstory because, yeah, we all talk.

[Ben Dickstein]

About those first 12 seconds, that opening cadenza, and that is all Lewis.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But the.

[Ben Dickstein]

The rest of the song was actually recorded as a favor to his much less famous mentor, a guy named Joe King Oliver. Their relationship is really the foundation of Armstrong's career. Oliver was like a father to him. And like any father son relationship, there.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Was a lot of love.

[Ben Dickstein]

But sometimes there was some tension, too, and some hard times. And I don't think you can really understand Louis Armstrong, arguably America's first black pop star, without understanding how his relationship with King Oliver really defined his career.

[Sally Helm]

All right, Ben. And that is the story that you have for us in this episode. Take it away.

[Ricky Riccardi]

All right, today, the story of Louis.

[Ben Dickstein]

Armstrong before hello Dolly or what a Wonderful World.

[Ricky Riccardi]

How did he get his start following.

[Ben Dickstein]

King Oliver around in New Orleans? And how did this complicated, sometimes fractured relationship give rise to an American icon?

[Ricky Riccardi]

New Orleans, around 1915. Louis Armstrong is 14 or 15 years old, and he's standing outside a bar, a honky tonk named Pete Lalla's Cafe. It's in the heart of a New Orleans neighborhood called Storyville, where white patrons.

[Ben Dickstein]

Go to gamble, visit prostitutes and drink black men like Armstrong or are allowed to work there and play music there.

[Unknown]

But it was not open for African Americans. They could not just Hang out there. No way. You needed to have a job or a reason to be there.

[Ricky Riccardi]

That's Ricky Riccardi, author and director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum in Queens, New York. And he says Armstrong has a good reason to be standing outside Pete Lalla's cafe that night. He works for the Karnovskys, a Jewish family who lives in the neighborhood, delivering coal to all these illicit businesses in Storyville.

[Unknown]

Morris Karnofsky would be on the coal cart, and there would be Armstrong, and he would have to deliver coal to the prostitutes. But he would hear this music, and who is it? But it's Joe Oliver.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Joe Oliver. Standing outside the cafe, Armstrong overhears Oliver, one of New Orleans top musicians at the time. He plays cornet very similar to a trumpet.

[Unknown]

Armstrong was mystified. And he would be just staring at Oliver and soaking in these sounds to the point where the prostitutes would catch him and say, hey, what are you doing there? And so they would kind of wake him up out of his stupor. But once he heard that music, I think he realized, yeah, I don't think he thought that he'd ever be the world's greatest trumpet player and there'd be a museum named after me one day or anything like that. But I think he thought that that's something that I would love to do.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Armstrong had actually been playing the cornet himself since he was young, but not super seriously.

[Unknown]

He was not an in demand musician. He was not a child prodigy by any measurement.

[Ricky Riccardi]

And Armstrong has to make money. He's supporting his mother, his younger sister, and eventually one of his nephews, too. But he thinks, maybe if I hitch myself to Joe Oliver, music could be the way out. If you've ever been to New Orleans, or even if you haven't, you probably know that parades are a big part of the culture.

[Unknown]

They never need an excuse to have a parade. There's always a parade. There's always a brass band. And Oliver would play in the onward brass band and would march through Armstrong's Third Ward neighborhood, and Lewis would follow the parade in the second line.

[Ricky Riccardi]

He's basically following his musical idol Oliver around like a lost puppy.

[Unknown]

He began asking Oliver if he could hold this cornet. And so they're out in the hot sun, and Oliver would finish the tune. He would need a little break, and he would give the cornet to this little kid. And Armstrong said that it was almost like the cornet had magic powers, because usually the police would run him away from these parades if he's in the Wrong part of town or ever get away here. But then all of a sudden, he was holding Joe Oliver's cornet and the police would let him march with the parade.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Soon he starts working for Oliver, running errands for him and his wife.

[Unknown]

He said Stella Oliver would fix them red beans and rice and she would put out three little buckets. He said, look like the three little bears. And he would eat over at the house.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Armstrong loved red beans and rice. So much so that later in life he'd sign letters, red beans and ricely yours. But he's getting more than beans and rice out of this relationship. He's getting musical training from Joe Oliver.

[Unknown]

You know, you're dividing it wrong and this is how you play him. Oliver always had that kind of sensibility about him that, you know, this is a music to be shared. And I think there was something about little Louis. I mean, you hate to get all misty eyed, but it's like, you know, Oliver never had a son and Louis barely knew his father. And so there was something there. That relationship between Armstrong and Oliver, it was special.

[Ben Dickstein]

Eventually, Oliver decides Armstrong is ready. He should play inside that cafe that he used to stand outside of Pete Lalla's.

[Unknown]

Oliver sends in the 16 year old kid who needs to borrow a pair of long pants, probably doesn't even have a pair of shoes. And his first night does not go well. Pete Lalla tells him, do not come back the next night.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Soon enough, he gets another gig at a notorious honky tonk with a back room for gambling. And Oliver sometimes stops by to watch.

[Unknown]

Every night there's gunfights and bullets whizzing past his head and pimps and prostitutes and gamblers and hustlers. And it is like a dangerous scene for those nights playing this rough and tumble honky tonk from say, midnight till four in the morning with Joe Oliver by his side. That's really when he becomes a musician.

[Ricky Riccardi]

In the summer of 1918, New Orleans Police raid a club while Oliver is performing. He's thrown in jail just for being there.

[Unknown]

Oliver was just so disrespected. He was disgusted with the city. Never stepped foot in New Orleans again.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Oliver was sick of the south, sick of the city's racism and segregation.

[Unknown]

And this is the time of the great migration. Thousands of African Americans are going up north and a lot of New Orleans musicians had been going up to Chicago and kind of wiring back and saying, hey, you got to come up here. You know, it's a whole different vibe, a whole different lifestyle. They love our music. And they treat us like human beings.

[Ricky Riccardi]

So Joe Oliver goes to Chicago. According to legend, he's an instant hit.

[Unknown]

Apparently on his first night, he's crowned king. You know, he does a blues, he plays with the mute, and everybody goes crazy and they call him King Oliver. For the first time.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Louis Armstrong leaves New Orleans too. He finds himself on a riverboat, traveling up and down the Mississippi, playing waltzes and rumbas and foxtrots for white audiences in cities all across the Midwest.

[Unknown]

And sometimes they had never seen an all black band wearing tuxedos, reading sheet music arrangements, playing in the style of music, with this drive, with this swing, with this energy. Sometimes the first night would be rough, you know, racial epithets and all this kind of stuff. But he said by the second night, he said they loved us. And he stressed it in his writing. He said they loved us. And I think it was a big moment for spreading the sounds of jazz into the Midwest of America.

[Ricky Riccardi]

During this time on the riverboat, Armstrong catches a cold and his voice gets hoarse. Apparently, it stays that way for the rest of his life. And after a while, he moves back to New Orleans. His career is thriving.

[Unknown]

He is an in demand musician. He's a full time musician. He's playing parades, he's playing with brass bands. He's really doing well as a musician.

[Ricky Riccardi]

In July of 1922, Armstrong is playing in one of these brass bands. At a local funeral when he gets a message, a telegram from King Oliver. He says, louis, come to Chicago, join my band.

[Ben Dickstein]

The other musicians say, don't do it.

[Ricky Riccardi]

They might have just been jealous.

[Unknown]

And Armstrong said, listen, whatever Joe Oliver wants to do, I want to do it too. This was the moment he had been waiting for. Armstrong was asked for the rest of his life, you know, what was the highlight of your life? What was your greatest gig? What was the best moment? And every time, he always answered the same way. Getting that telegram, boarding that train and joining Oliver in Chicago, that was the climax.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Louis Armstrong knows what he has to do. He gets on a train bound for Chicago's Illinois Central Station.

[Unknown]

He had never been on a train ride this long. So he's like a 25 hour train ride, gets off in Chicago, and he's immediately lost.

[Ben Dickstein]

Armstrong is all alone in the big city. Oliver was supposed to meet him, but he came in on a later train and now he's lost. He has no idea where to go. And he starts to think maybe this.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Was all a very bad idea.

[Sally Helm]

History this week is now in its sixth season. Kind of crazy. And we love bringing you these stories. All of our work is supported by the ads you hear on the show, but if you don't want to hear those ads, we're now introducing history this week plus available exclusively on Apple Podcasts for just $2.99 per month. You'll get all of our new episodes without any of the ads, and we'll be adding ad free versions of our older episodes too. So subscribe now and get your first week free History this Week plus Exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

[Ben Dickstein]

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[Ricky Riccardi]

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[Ben Dickstein]

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[Ricky Riccardi]

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[Unknown]

He hears the music from outside and he becomes so overwhelmed that he doesn't even want to go in. And I think he's almost starting to regret the whole thing, like I might not be good enough for this.

[Ben Dickstein]

But he works up the courage and heads inside. The theater is huge.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Just the lobby, he said, felt like.

[Ben Dickstein]

It was as long as a city block. Then he goes backstage and reconnects with his mentor who's thrilled to see his protege.

[Unknown]

But King Oliver said he looked greasy. You know, he had out of date suit and, you know, he was not. He was a country boy. There's no other way around it. He's a country boy now in the big city. But all the musicians, they were so happy to see him.

[Ricky Riccardi]

It turns out Chicago's not so unfriendly. There are a lot of people here that Armstrong knows from New Orleans. He watches the show and he's blown away by Oliver's band. The next day, Armstrong goes out exploring.

[Unknown]

We're talking south side of Chicago. We're talking 1922. It's a thriving black neighborhood. He goes to the musicians union and people he hadn't seen in years. And that's when he realized kind of the effects of the great migration, that all of a sudden, you know, he was so afraid of being a fish out of water, being in a place he wasn't going to know anybody. Everybody had the same story as him. You know, they were bonded by this experience. They had grown up in the south, some in New Orleans, some in Alabama, some Mississippi. Mississippi, whatever. But now they were all together and they were, you know, black businesses and everyone well dressed, everything else. And so all of a sudden he. He really kind of falls in love with Chicago.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Soon enough, Armstrong does what he came to Chicago to do. He starts performing with King Oliver.

[Unknown]

And from that first moment on, they started playing duets together. They could kind of read each other's minds. And Oliver had secret ways of signaling Armstrong what he was about to play. Man, the place would just. The walls would tumble down, people screaming and cheering. And like I said, this was the climax of Armstrong's life.

[Ben Dickstein]

The band starts recording together too. Tracks like the one you just heard, Dippermouth Blues. Dippermouth was one of Armstrong's many nicknames. And other tracks like Snake Rag.

[Unknown]

Snake Rag is probably my favorite example. But there's a bunch where you hear the magic play out, where the band is just, you know, wailing and wailing and wailing. Then all of a sudden, boom, there's just Armstrong and King Oliver.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But at this time, we're still not.

[Ben Dickstein]

Really hearing jazz solos as we know them.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Now.

[Unknown]

Most people think of a jazz musician today, they probably have this image of the soloist expressing themselves, using their voice, telling a story. And that wasn't really what the music was about in the early days. You know, early on, it was mostly ensemble based music.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But nevertheless, Armstrong is starting to shine. In 1923, after the band lays down some tracks, they have A playback. They listen to the record together.

[Unknown]

When they listen to the record, all you heard was Armstrong. His tone, his natural tone was so golden and so strong and so much bigger than Oliver that he, he overwhelmed the, the band.

[Ricky Riccardi]

That's partly because of the recording style at the time. There were no microphones yet, just a bunch of horns like from old timey phonographs sticking out of the wal.

[Unknown]

So they ended up putting Armstrong about 15ft away from the recording horn. And Armstrong was pretty sad about them.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But someone else in the band takes notice. Lil Hardin, the piano player in King Oliver's group.

[Unknown]

That's when Lil, she said, that's when she had her lightbulb moment.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Lil Hardin is a classically trained pianist and she'd been one of the first people Armstrong noticed in King Oliver's group.

[Unknown]

The first time she met Louis Armstrong, Armstrong was giving her the eye and she had no desire. She had just gotten married.

[Ricky Riccardi]

She said, uh, well, you know how these things go.

[Unknown]

Eventually, Lil's marriage falls apart. She starts dating Armstrong.

[Ben Dickstein]

Their relationship really starts after she notices during that recording session that Armstrong could be a star. They get together soon after that, and Lil starts making some changes ever so.

[Unknown]

Slowly, you know, first updating his wardrobe and then second, asking him about his money because Joe Oliver was pretty much acting as Armstrong's bank. You know, he would save his money and give it to him as needed. And Lil's like, nope, not anymore. You're going to get your own money now.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Louis Armstrong still loves his mentor, but Hardin can see something he can't.

[Unknown]

There's no two ways around it. Oliver starts holding Armstrong back. Oliver knew that Armstrong was in such awe of him and had so much respect for him that he wasn't going to try to show him up or anything. And he knew that Armstrong could play louder than Oliver, he could play higher than Oliver, he could play faster than Oliver. But Oliver would say, you know, as long as little Louis stays with me, I'll always be the King.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Lil and Louis eventually get married and she issues an ultimatum.

[Unknown]

Listen, I didn't marry no second cornet players. So either you're going to quit King Oliver or this marriage is not going to go anywhere. And that's really the crossroads moment for Armstrong.

[Ricky Riccardi]

He chooses Lil and his own musical future. He hands in his notice to Oliver. It's an actual piece of paper. Lil helps him write it. According to Armstrong, Oliver just sits there in silence.

[Unknown]

The funny part is Lil doesn't put in her notice. And so Oliver's like, you didn't Hand in your notice. And she's like, well, I'm not quitting.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Lil stays in Chicago, and Louis needs a new opportunity. He finds it in New York City.

[Unknown]

At first, the New York musicians who all kind of fancied themselves as intellectuals, they kind of laugh at him. They look down at him. They make fun of his suit, they make fun of his shoes, the way he talked, the whole thing. Then they heard him play. I was like, oh, okay.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Armstrong joins Fletcher Henderson's orchestra. Henderson is the piano player and bandleader. And this tune Armstrong records with them.

[Unknown]

Is Shanghai Shuffle, which kind of sounds like every 1920s dance band. It's this kind of quasi exotic arrangement. But then Lua solos, and for 30 seconds, it's like the sunshine coming through the clouds. And then it goes right back to the. The kind of corny sound at that.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Time, the jazz solo. It's still an emerging concept. And Armstrong does record some tracks that help make his name, but he's not getting the credit he feels he deserves.

[Unknown]

During those 13 months, Armstrong is not happy. His name is not in any of the advertisements. He's making all these records, and nobody knows his name. He's not happy. Lil's not happy. And she delivers the second big ultimatum that you know, now you have to quit Fletcher Henderson and joined my band back in Chicago.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Lil has since quit King Oliver's group and started her own act. Now it's going to feature her husband.

[Unknown]

She calls the owner of the Dreamland Cafe and says, listen, I want to bring my band here, and I want you to hire my husband. You're going to pay him $75 a week, even though he's making 55 in New York. And you're going to bill him as the world's greatest jazz cornetist. And the manager of the Dreamland is like, what? You know, no one's ever heard of your husband before. What are you talking about? She goes, trust me, it'll be great. And so she reports this back to Lewis. And at first, Louis thinks she's crazy. But sure enough, first day on the job, there's a big sign out there. Come hear the world's greatest jazz cornetist. And Louis, he is embarrassed by that. You know, he is not the type to go out bragging, but he can't deny the power of marketing.

[Ricky Riccardi]

The group is a hit. They sell out the Dreamland Theater and start recording, too. Louis Armstrong and his Hot 5. He records a song with them called Heebie Jeebies that puts scat singing on the map.

[Unknown]

It's not the first example of scat singing. People always have to point that out. But it was the first time it was marketed that way. Again, the power of marketing. And it became Armstrong's first hit.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Then there's Cornet Chop Suey, which Riccardi says is named after Armstrong's love of Chinese food and features the kind of melodic solo you might find in later jazz in the 30s and 40s. He's moving things forward.

[Unknown]

Once they heard Cornet Chop Suey, they said, well, that's a whole new way of soloing. And nearly 100 years later, we're still dealing with those records.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But soon things between Lewis and Lil become less than harmonious.

[Unknown]

Well, In April of 1926, Armstrong and Lil, they start fighting. The marriage is starting to run out of gas, and the whole concept of him being a sideman at his wife's band, the other musicians are making fun of him. They're calling him henpecked and all that stuff. So he quits Lil's band, and he.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Decides to go back to what he knows best. He agrees to rejoin King Oliver.

[Unknown]

And the Chicago Defender newspaper actually reported that Louis Armstrong is going to rejoin King Oliver. But then one day, Armstrong's walking down the street to rehearse with King Oliver, and here comes the piano player, Earl Father Hines.

[Ben Dickstein]

Hines is one of the most influential jazz pianists in history, and he and Armstrong had become recent friends.

[Unknown]

And Heinz says, hey, where are you going? And Armstrong goes, oh, I'm going to rehearse with King Oliver. And Hines goes, oh, you don't want to play with those old men. Why don't you come join us and play with some youngsters? And for whatever reason, Armstrong says, okay. And he leaves King Oliver in the lurch.

[Ben Dickstein]

We don't know exactly why Armstrong jumps ship. He could have made maybe the more comfortable choice and gone back with Oliver.

[Unknown]

And I do wonder how the history would have changed at that point, because would they have fallen into their old dynamic? You know, would Oliver have said, hey, remember, I'm the king? You know, you play your second parts. Maybe I'll feature you here and there.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But Armstrong joins the younger band instead. Their theater, the Sunset Cafe, is right across the street from King Oliver's theater, the Plantation Cafe.

[Unknown]

And even though they're cordial to each other, they're rivals at this point.

[Ricky Riccardi]

You could kind of call them frenemies. They're competing for crowds. But they also do respect each other. And soon, Armstrong takes over as the bandleader. He's a sensation.

[Unknown]

By the spring of 1920, 7. Armstrong is now the king of this block of 35th and Calumet in the south side of Chicago. And he admitted later on he said he felt really bad taking King Oliver's crowds away.

[Ben Dickstein]

King Oliver, no longer the King of Chicago, heads to New York to try to reestablish his domain. He does okay at the Savoy Ballroom, but then wants too much money. He's in. Engagements fall through, plus he's having trouble with his teeth, which makes it extremely difficult to play a brass instrument.

[Unknown]

And by 1928, not only is Armstrong becoming a budding superstar, but King Oliver could barely put a cornet up to his lips. And it looks like it's the end of old Joe Oliver. He's attempting to make records, and the records are almost getting unanimously rejected. But he's still in the game.

[Ricky Riccardi]

And in the summer of 1928, he writes a little song called West End Blues, one that will go on to be extremely famous, just not the way that King Oliver has written it.

[Unknown]

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[Ricky Riccardi]

It's the summer of 1928 and Louis Armstrong is riding high in the Chicago jazz scene. His mentor, King Oliver, is trying to scrape by in New York and he writes this song, West End Blues.

[Unknown]

He actually records it before Louis Armstrong. Oliver sounds pretty good on it, but it's a sleepy little blues. You wouldn't say, wow, that changed jazz history or whatever, it's just a fine little blues.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But Oliver is proud of his composition and shares it with his old pupil.

[Unknown]

Oliver handed him the sheet music for his new composition and said, hey, you know, if you ever have a recording date, maybe you could record my tune. Knowing he'd get some royalties, he'd get some extra money.

[Ricky Riccardi]

On June 28, 1928, Armstrong is recording. And maybe as a favor to Oliver, he decides to play West End Blues. He just adds a little something extra at the top.

[Unknown]

The opening of the record is an unaccompanied improvised trumpet cadenza. It's been called the most famous 12 seconds in jazz. And where Armstrong came up with this, when he came up with this, why he came up with this, it's all conjecture. Everybody has different theories. Lil says he got it from some of the classical studies. Zuri Singleton said, oh, yeah, they rehearsed that at his house house before the record date. Lewis, he kind of just said I needed to make an introduction. That's the introduction I played. So it's. It's this murky thing, but it came from him. It didn't come from King Oliver. That was something inside that he had to get out and damned if I saved myself. It is high art. It is high art up there with Mozart and Bach and anything that's come before it. And when he ends it, I love it because Zuri Singleton is. He clops down his hand cymbals and to me, it always sounds like he's kind of closing a time capsule. Like what we just accomplished right now will be talked about till the end of time. So let's just remember this moment.

[Ricky Riccardi]

West End Blues is a smash hit. It's still one of the most important recordings in the history of jazz. Oliver's reaction to the song doesn't seem to be jealousy or anger. It's pride in his little Louis Oliver.

[Unknown]

When he heard Armstrong's recording of West End Blues, he was so touched by it that he wanted to re record West End Blues to get it to sound like Louis Armstrong's version.

[Ben Dickstein]

Oliver, still dealing with his dental issues, hires a different player to take a.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Crack at the introductory solo.

[Ben Dickstein]

Which doesn't.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Sound great, but Riccardi says it's a.

[Ben Dickstein]

Way for Oliver to honor this relationship.

[Unknown]

This was a tribute from one king to another, mentor to mentee, like, you know, like you, I'm really proud of you. And even though Oliver could not even dream of playing anything like that again, he wanted his band to put their name on it. And so it's really kind of a beautiful gesture.

[Ricky Riccardi]

These two men have moved beyond musical rivalry. The final phase of their relationship is actually quite touching. West End Blues becomes a staple of Louis Armstrong's repertoire, including what become legendary performances at the Savoy Ballroom in New York.

[Unknown]

People in the audience would scream. It was like going to see the Beatles. To the point where the patrons of the Savoy, sometimes they would carry him off the stage on their shoulders, just like the conquering heroes.

[Ricky Riccardi]

But the very first night of these performances for Armstrong is the most memorable.

[Unknown]

That first night in the audience, there's King Oliver. Armstrong said that King Oliver had tears in his eyes. He said he could hear the music that they had made together when he was a teenager in New Orleans. He looked right out into the audience and we're talking about a sea of people. But all he cared about was that Joe Oliver was there.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Louis Armstrong goes on to be Louis Armstrong. Beloved American icon Joe King. Oliver isn't known by many people who aren't deep into jazz. He has ups and downs for the rest of his career and dies in relative obscurity in 1938. Armstrong sends him money towards the end of his life and even decades after Oliver's death. Armstrong always made sure to credit his mentor for his role in his success. Ricky Riccardi says you don't have to look farther than one of Armstrong's favorite later in life hobbies, which may be surprising collaging. Yes. Armstrong made these little collages, these art pieces on the boxes of reel to reel audio tapes that he used to document his life.

[Unknown]

We have a collage here in the archives, the Louis Armstrong House Museum. It's a picture of Armstrong playing cornet and it's all people he admired. He cut out little pictures of Bing Crosby and Sid Catlin and Jelly Roll Morton and Duke Ellington and he scotch tapes them all around. But he takes a little tiny King Oliver head and he cut out Oliver's head and he scotch taped it directly in the center of his brain. So just like at all times, he is thinking of King Oliver and King Oliver only.

[Ricky Riccardi]

Thanks for listening to History this Week, a Back Pocket Studios production in partnership with the History Channel. To stay updated on all things history this week, sign [e-mail] and if you have any thoughts or questions, send us an [e-mail] Special thanks to our guest, Ricky Riccardi, director of Research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum in Queens, New York, and author of several books on Armstrong, including his most recent, Stomp off let's the Early Years of Louis Armstrong. Also, congrats to Ricky, who just won his second Grammy Award. This episode was produced and sound designed by me Ben Dickstein. It was also produced and story edited by Sally Helm. Thanks, Sally. For Back Pocket Studios, our executive producer is me, Ben Dickstein from the History Channel. Our executive producers are Eli Lehrer and Liv Fiddler. Don't forget to follow, rate and review History this week, wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next week.