Was Ethel Rosenberg A Spy?

Summary

HISTORY This Week: "Was Ethel Rosenberg A Spy?"

Episode Release Date: March 24, 2025
Host: The HISTORY® Channel | Back Pocket Studios

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Introduction to the Rosenberg Trial

The episode "Was Ethel Rosenberg A Spy?" delves deep into one of the most controversial espionage cases in American history. Hosted by Sally Helm, the podcast explores whether Ethel Rosenberg, the only woman executed for espionage in U.S. history, was genuinely involved in spying activities or unjustly convicted.

Background on Ethel and Julius Rosenberg

Ethel Rosenberg, born Ethel Greenglass on the Lower East Side of New York City, grew up in extreme poverty. Her early life was marked by hardship, including her family's tenement living conditions and the Great Depression's impact, which shaped her political awakening. Ethel's father hailed from Minsk, Belarus, and the family's struggles fostered a belief in communism as a solution to capitalism's failures.

In 1939, Ethel married Julius Rosenberg, a committed communist and civilian engineer in the U.S. Army. Their union was not just personal but also political, bound by their shared ideologies and activism against fascism. Together, they engaged in various communist causes, including fundraising to oppose Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

The Espionage Accusations

By the early 1940s, as global tensions escalated into World War II and subsequently the Cold War, Julius Rosenberg became involved in espionage, passing atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. Ethel's role, however, remained ambiguous. While Julius actively recruited spies, including Ethel's brother, David Greenglass, evidence suggested varying degrees of her involvement.

Notable Quote:
Anne Seba (Author of Ethel: An American Tragedy):
"I wanted to extrapolate Ethel. I wanted to tell the story of a woman's life that was so brutally cut short."
— [08:58]

The Trial and Key Testimonies

In 1950, amidst the burgeoning Cold War, the Rosenbergs were arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit espionage. The prosecution, led by U.S. Attorney Irving Saypol and his deputy Roy Cohn, aimed to portray both Ethel and Julius as equal conspirators. The case was heavily reliant on the testimony of David Greenglass, Ethel's brother, who implicated Julius and, by extension, Ethel.

David's testimony was pivotal yet contentious. Initially cooperating with prosecutors to receive a reduced sentence, David later recanted some of his statements, revealing that parts of his testimony, especially concerning Ethel's involvement, were fabricated.

Notable Quote:
Roy Cohn:
"Every man knew somebody in his family who was a typist. If you couldn't trust the typist in your life, who could you trust?"
— [26:12]

Verdict and Execution

After a highly publicized trial, the jury found both Ethel and Julius Rosenberg guilty of espionage on November 1, 1951. Despite significant doubts about the strength of the evidence against Ethel, the couple was sentenced to death. Their executions took place on June 19, 1953, solidifying their legacy as controversial figures in American history.

Venona Project and Later Revelations

Years later, the release of the Venona cables—decrypted Soviet intelligence messages—cast new light on the Rosenberg case. While these documents referenced Julius extensively under the codename "Liberal" and briefly mentioned Ethel, interpretations of her involvement remained divided. Some experts argue that the cables indicate minimal involvement from Ethel, suggesting she was more a supportive spouse than an active participant in espionage.

Notable Quote:
Anne Seba:
"The two men who decrypted these cables added a memo in which they add, 'does not work' means that she's not involved in spying."
— [32:55]

Perspectives from the Rosenberg Children

The personal toll of the trial is poignantly captured through interviews with Ethel and Julius's sons, Robert and Michael Meeropol. As children during their parents' imprisonment and execution, they offer a contrasting view to the vilified image portrayed in the media and by prosecutors. Their reflections emphasize their parents' humanity, love, and the complexities of their legacy.

Notable Quote:
Michael Meeropol:
"The idea that they are a unit and that they are inseparable... they were a unit fighting back together."
— [41:54]

Conclusion: Ethel Rosenberg's Legacy

The episode concludes by challenging the simplistic narrative of Ethel Rosenberg as merely a traitor. Instead, it portrays her as a multifaceted individual— a mother, wife, and a woman caught in the tumultuous political climates of her time. The ongoing debate about her true involvement in espionage reflects broader discussions about justice, loyalty, and the complexities of historical narrative.

Notable Quote:
Robert Meeropol:
"I would much rather be the child of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg now than the child of David and Ruth Greenglass."
— [41:11]

Final Reflections

"Was Ethel Rosenberg A Spy?" offers a nuanced exploration of a tragic chapter in American history. By intertwining historical facts, personal testimonies, and later revelations, the podcast invites listeners to reconsider preconceived notions and understand the human stories behind the headlines.

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Credits:
Special Thanks to Anne Seba, author of Ethel: An American Tragedy, and Michael and Robert Meeropol, sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
Produced by Ben Dickstein, Sound Design by Dan Rosado, Story Editing by Mary Knoff, and additional production by Julie McGruder, Julia Press, Emma Fredericks, McCamey Lynn, and Jesse Katz.

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Stay Connected:
Visit historythisweekpodcast.com and email [e-mail] for more information and to engage with the podcast community.

Transcript

[Ben]

Hey History this week listeners, your producer Ben here. We talk a lot about time on this show. History moves pretty fast. Maybe sometimes you feel like you don't have time to treat yourself like go out and get a gourmet meal. Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor arrives fresh and fully prepared, perfect for any active, busy lifestyle. And you can pick meals that match up with your dietary preferences like Calorie Smart, Protein plus or Keto. I really liked their garlic butter chicken, which tasted like it came straight from my favorite restaurant. Reach your goals this year with ingredients you can trust and convenience that can't be beat. Eat smart with Factor get [e-mail] FactorPodcast and use code FactorPodcast to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's Code Factor Podcast at FactorMeals.com FactorPodcast to get 50% OFF plus free shipping on your first box. Hey history this week listeners, it's your producer Ben here. Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. Making financial decisions shouldn't feel like trying to pick a place to eat out with friends. Too many choices. Everybody's got a different budget and a million opinions on what's worth spending on. One person says buy crypto, another says go all in on gold doubloons. Meanwhile, you're just trying to figure out if your credit card's annual fee is ever going to pay off. That's where the nerds come in. NerdWallet's finance journalists do the research so you don't have to breaking down the fine print, cutting through misinformation and giving you real fact based insights so you can make the smart financial moves without the group chat chaos. NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast can help you get smarter about when refinancing actually saves you money and when it doesn't. The real difference between ETFs and mutual funds without the jargon which insurance policies actually protect your wealth and which ones are just extra costs. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast on your favorite podcast app, the History Channel.

[Sally Helm]

Original Podcast history this week, March 29th, 1951. I'm Sally Helm. It's after midnight and the jury still doesn't have an answer. They've been deliberating for hours in the courthouse at Foley Square in lower Manhattan and their verdict will be big news because this trial has been a sensation. Ethel and Julius Rosenberg are accused of conspiracy to commit espionage. The prosecution has tried to make the case that Julius helped recruit a network of spies to send atomic secrets to the Soviet Union. They say Ethel was a part of it too, that she was just as guilty as her husband. She's facing the same punishment as Julius. They could both be sentenced to death, leaving their two children orphaned. That's why one of the jurors is still a holdout. James Gibbons is an accountant. He lives in the Bronx with his wife and two kids, and he can't help but fixate on Ethel and how convicting her would destroy a family. Journalist Ted Morgan later tracks down this juror and others for a 1975 piece in Esquire magazine. In it, Gibbons explains, it was the thought of those two small children. Finally, after hours of discussion, the jury decides they need to sleep on it. The court scrambles to find them 12 rooms together at a hotel, all on the same floor, so officials can keep an eye on them. Meanwhile, Ethel and Julius are both taken to separate jail cells beneath the courthouse. As they await the verdict, their fates tied together, the jurors wake up at 7:30. They eat a quick breakfast, then go back to the courthouse. And there it doesn't take long for the last holdout to change his mind. He later says in that Esquire story, I was made to understand that it wasn't the jury's job to even think about the sentence that's going to be decided later. Several of the jurors have been arguing that capital punishment isn't likely anyway. And so at 11:01am the jury comes back into the courtroom and declares the Rosenbergs guilty. A week later, that judge sentences both of the Rosenbergs to death. And that is how they've been remembered throughout history as the Rosenbergs. Even though the stories of Julius and Ethel as individuals are actually quite different. Today, we pull apart the Rosenbergs. Who was Ethel, the only woman executed for espionage in US History? And why is her guilt still a topic of debate today?

[Ben]

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[Greg Jackson]

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[Ben]

Original music and immersive sound design accompany us on our storytelling journey, and every episode is painstakingly researched and rooted in fact. The promise is in the title. History that Doesn't Suck. Hey everyone, this is your producer Ben. Or should I say Yosoi Ben Hamin, Because I'm here to tell you how you can learn naturally and speak confidently with Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone helps you absorb a language the way you learned your first language through real world context and conversation. No memorization, just practical skills you can use right away. Rosetta Stone is the leading language learning program. It's available on your desktop computer or mobile device and is designed to immerse you in your chosen language to make the learning process as natural. I think you'll be surprised with how quickly you can pick this up. Fast enough to maybe prep for that far away vacation you always wanted to take. Someplace where you can really blend into the town. Hang out with locals. Rosetta Stone can help make that happen. It's an intuitive learning process. You start with words, then phrases all the way to full sentences and it's a great value. A lifetime membership to Rosetta Stone gets you access to all 25 languages, so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. History this week, listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com history to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com history and start learning today.

[Sally Helm]

Ethel Rosenberg grew up on the Lower east side of New York City and that's where the writer and journalist Anne Seba was decades ago when she first started wondering about this story.

[Anne Seba]

Yes, that's exactly where the seed was planted for me. We lived in. In the shadow of the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn Heights. We often used to walk over the Brooklyn Bridge, my husband and I, and baby in a stroller on a Sunday morning, and end up eating bagels on the Lower east side.

[Sally Helm]

Seppa knew about the Rosenbergs, which is how they're usually described.

[Anne Seba]

If you even look on Wikipedia. It's the story of the Rosenbergs.

[Sally Helm]

But decades after those New York City walks after Seba has already written several biographies of important women in history, she decides, forget the Rosenbergs.

[Anne Seba]

I wanted to extrapolate Ethel. I wanted to tell the story of a woman's life that was so brutally cut short.

[Sally Helm]

Because Ethel's life was so short, and because it's so defined in history by her trial and execution, Seba had to do some digging to understand her. The research took her lots of places. To Minsk in Belarus, where Ethel's father's.

[Anne Seba]

Family, the Greenglasses, came from.

[Sally Helm]

To Los Alamos, New Mexico, where the US Built its first nuclear bomb and.

[Anne Seba]

Saw the places where the Manhattan Project.

[Sally Helm]

Was based, to Sing Sing Prison, where Ethel would spend the last years of her life.

[Anne Seba]

I saw the cell where Ethel was kept. It's now a carpentry shop.

[Sally Helm]

And of course, back to New York City, where it all started for Seba and for Ethel herself.

[Anne Seba]

She was born in a tenement on the Lower East Side, 64 Sheriff St.

[Sally Helm]

The greenglasses lived above the family candy store in a small apartment. No hot water, little ventilation.

[Anne Seba]

Imagine the cold and the damp and the smells. You don't even have a window. In the bathtub was the same tub that vegetables were peeled in. It was extreme poverty.

[Sally Helm]

Ethel isn't permitted to attend college, even though she wants to. It's the Depression. Her parents need financial help.

[Anne Seba]

They didn't think that, or particularly her mother. Tessie did not think there was any point in a girl being educated, so she had to leave school at 15.

[Sally Helm]

Meanwhile, Seba says that Ethel's mother always made it clear that her favorite child was Ethel's younger brother, David.

[Anne Seba]

David was not nearly as clever as Ethel, but he was the child that all the love was poured into.

[Sally Helm]

Still, Ethel makes her own way. She's always been interested in performance and singing. She has a high, untrained soprano voice. As a teenager, she auditions for a prestigious choir called Scola Cantorum, which performed at Carnegie Hall.

[Anne Seba]

This tells me so much about Ethel. She didn't just decide to sing in any old Lower east side choir. She aimed high and of course Scola Cantorum turned her down because she couldn't sing sightseeing. And most teenagers would just go home and say, oh, well, I tried, never mind. But Ethel, she found a piano because it was the Depression and people were throwing furniture out onto the street.

[Sally Helm]

She gets that piano, teaches herself to sight read and auditions again.

[Anne Seba]

And Scola Cantorum took her on at the second audition. She was the youngest they ever had.

[Sally Helm]

But she only stays a year, I.

[Anne Seba]

Suspect because they went on tour and Ethel couldn't afford to go on tour.

[Sally Helm]

Still a teenager, Ethel was helping support her family, working as a clerk at a shipping company in midtown Manhattan. And it seems to be at this job that Ethel experiences a political awakening. About 10,000 packages come through the New York packing and shipping company every day. By and large, the men move the boxes, the women write receipts. And those women are members of the shipping clerks unit, which in the summer of 1935 goes on strike. Ethel's co workers remember that she was a committed striker, vocal, involved. There's an action where workers try to stop delivery trucks from coming into a garage. Ethel lays down in her raincoat as a barrier. The tactic works. And after the strike finally ends in September, Ethel is fired. She takes her case to the newly formed National Labor Relations Board. They do an eight month investigation and find that, quote, antagonism to Ethel Greenglass undoubtedly arose by virtue of the fact that she was active in organizing the union. That same year, 1936, Ethel Greenglass becomes a communist. And she's not the only one. Between 1934 and 1937, Communist Party membership in America jumped 66%. Like a lot of Americans, Ethel had suffered after the great market crash of 1929.

[Anne Seba]

She'd grown up in poverty. During the Depression, Ethel would have seen people thrown out of their flats, living hand to mouth with almost nothing. People like her believed that the Depression was a clear indication that capitalism had had a chance and had failed.

[Sally Helm]

At the same time, across the Atlantic Ocean, authoritarian leaders are on the rise. People who oppose both communism and democracy. Hitler in Germany, Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain.

[Anne Seba]

The world situation was so dire and joining the Communist Party was seen as a way to oppose Hitler, to oppose all the dictators.

[Sally Helm]

Back on the Lower east side, Ethel engages with communist causes in a way that makes sense for her by singing. She sings at Workers alliance rallies, at fundraisers, raising money to oppose Franco in the Spanish Civil War. But before one rally on New Year's Eve 1936.

[Anne Seba]

Ethel apparently was nervous, nervous to sing.

[Sally Helm]

And someone in particular comes to comfort her. An engineering student three years younger, Julius Rosenberg.

[Anne Seba]

The story goes that he calmed her nerves in a side room before and they became boy and girlfriend ever after.

[Sally Helm]

Julius later said, I have loved her ever since that first night. The couple dates for about two and a half years. And then on June 18, 1939, they marry. But just a couple months later.

[Anne Seba]

But from the plains of Poland came the first accounts of of a new method of warfare. The attack that strikes like lightning. The Nazi blitzkrieg.

[Sally Helm]

World War II begins. And at first, Hitler and the Soviet Union have an alliance. The Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, which means that Communists were now allies with the Nazis.

[Anne Seba]

And so suddenly it was very awkward to be a Communist. And many people left the Communist Party at this point, but Julius and Ethel didn't. And they can be criticized. But on the other hand, they swallowed the party line that this was a necessary device to buy time so that Russia wasn't attacked by Hitler.

[Sally Helm]

But less than two years later, Hitler invades the Soviet Union.

[Anne Seba]

And at that point it was fine to be a Communist again. And so then the American government had to persuade American citizens that actually the.

[Sally Helm]

Communists were good people because the US and the Soviet Union were now close allies. By this point, Julius Rosenberg has joined the US army as a civilian engineer. He and Ethel are still committed Communists, attending meetings and rallies. And at one of these rallies On Labor Day 1942, Julius Rosenberg makes a fateful decision.

[Anne Seba]

Probably that's where Julius made himself known to the Russians. He explained that he was working in a government department as an engineer that many of his friends were also working in in government departments.

[Sally Helm]

Julius doesn't sign up to be a spy immediately, but during his third meeting with the Soviets, he says he's in.

[Anne Seba]

He thought he could help by passing on information because he believed that it was important to support them in any way he could.

[Sally Helm]

The Soviet Union may be an ally, but spying is of course illegal. And Julius has access.

[Anne Seba]

He's an army inspector, so he's inspecting various tools and weapons and travels around the country.

[Sally Helm]

Julius starts sharing military secrets with the Soviet Union. And by late 1944, he's recruiting friends to spy, including Ethel's brother, David Greenglass, and David's wife Ruth. Truth. At the time, David Greenglass worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where the US is developing the atomic bomb. In one exchange with the Soviet Union on Christmas Eve 1944, Julius gives his Soviet handler a short range proximity fuse. Detonator technology used to shoot down enemy aircraft. In exchange, the Soviet handler gives Julius a wristwatch, a crocodile handbag for Ethel and a teddy bear for their one year old son, Michael. Does Ethel know what Julius is up to? And does she participate too?

[Anne Seba]

I don't believe Ethel knew the details. I am quite sure that Ethel knew Julius was helping the Soviets. Given Ethel's personality, we have to assume that that Ethel approved. There's no evidence of her stepping in to stop Julius.

[Sally Helm]

It's hard to know exactly what the dynamics were between Ethel and Julius at the time. One thing we know for sure about this period though, is that Ethel is busy at home. She and Julius had a second son, Robert, in 1947, and she's hard at work raising the two boys.

[Anne Seba]

She went to mothering classes. She really was determined to teach them music and to get on the floor and play with them and to understand, understand the latest theories in mothering. She wanted her sons to call her Ethel. Other mothers thought she was peculiar, but she was obsessed by being not only a good mother, but a better mother than Tessie had been to her.

[Sally Helm]

But world events are going to upend this domestic scene. The Soviets explode an atomic bomb in 1949. China turns to communism one month later, and in 1950, North Korea invades South Korea. These events precipitate what we know now as the Cold War. America's efforts against communism ramp up abroad and at home, authorities begin to track and clamp down on Soviet spies. The first major spy to be caught.

[Anne Seba]

Was Klaus Fuchs, brilliant physicist living in Cambridge. And he clearly had given the Russians really important, vital information to get a reduced sentence.

[Sally Helm]

He names names.

[Anne Seba]

He named his courier Harry Gold, and Harry Gold named David and Ruth Greenglass.

[Sally Helm]

When Ethel's brother is brought in, David.

[Anne Seba]

Greenglass named one single name. He named Julius Rosenberg. Not Ethel, just Julius. The FBI arrest Julius. They charge him with conspiracy to commit espionage. And he doesn't name names. So they want him to talk because they know that he actually does know other people, but his lips are sealed. So what do they do?

[Sally Helm]

They subpoena his wife, Ethel. Maybe she'll talk. Only she doesn't. On August 7, 1950, she stands before a federal grand jury. And she gives them nothing. No names, no confession, nothing. Four days later, on August 11th, the FBI arrests her.

[Anne Seba]

So Ethel and Julius from then on become the Rosenbergs.

[Sally Helm]

And the Rosenbergs are charged with the exact same conspiracy to commit espionage.

[Anne Seba]

Now, this charge, conspiracy to commit espionage, was very clever because of course, conspiracy is almost impossible to disprove still, the.

[Sally Helm]

Case is not a slam dunk and prosecutors seem to know it. Privately.

[Anne Seba]

They say immediately that the evidence against her was very weak. They know it's shaky at best. But they arrest her in order that she might act as a lever to make Julia's talk.

[Sally Helm]

And if she doesn't talk, the punishment she faces could be life in prison or even death. Prosecutors and authorities are taking a chance. What is Ethel willing to risk in order not to implicate her husband? Apparently her life.

[Anne Seba]

It's quite clear that they were a close, loving couple. I often say that my book is much more of a love story than a spy story. And so Ethel did not name names.

[Sally Helm]

People are shocked that Ethel won't give up Julius or name anyone else. But they don't really know anything about Ethel. They don't know that she laid down in her raincoat to block trucks during a workers strike. That she and Julius formed their bond through their unwavering politics. What they see is a traitorous woman choosing communism over her country and her family.

[Anne Seba]

The authorities can't believe that a young mother with two children wouldn't immediately talk or do whatever she could to allow herself to go free and look after her two boys.

[Sally Helm]

So the legal proceedings begin. Julius and Ethel are prosecuted by U.S. attorney Irving Sapel and his deputy Roy Cohn. Cohn later becomes famous as Senator Joseph McCarthy's right hand man during the Red Scare Senate hearings. The star witness at the trial is Ethel's brother, David Greenglass. Unlike Julius and Ethel, David pleads guilty to the charges against him and he works out a deal with the prosecution. David would end up being sentenced to 15 years in prison, though he'll only serve nine and a half. His wife Ruth would stay home with their children, never charged with a crime. And brokering this deal, 23 year old.

[Anne Seba]

Roy Cohn, who was determined to make his name in the trial of the century, coaches David and Ruth and does some sort of plea bargain with David and Ruth.

[Sally Helm]

David takes the stand in the courtroom in lower Manhattan in front of the jury and his family members. Until this moment, he's said nothing publicly about Ethel. He's only implicated Julius. And that's the path his testimony takes. At first he discusses in detail how Julius recruited him, how he dealt with a courier to transmit military secrets to the Soviet Union. But when questions arise about his sister, his original story changes.

[Anne Seba]

David is going to say he saw.

[Sally Helm]

His sister typing, specifically typing up notes about the atomic bomb. Then Ruth, David's wife, takes a stand. She says the same thing and she says both Julius and Ethel together recruited David. The prosecution gloms onto this typewriter story and hammers the moral home to the jury.

[Anne Seba]

Every man knew somebody in his family who was a typist. And, you know, if you couldn't trust the typist in your life, who could you trust? And it's a blow against Ethel for subverting what it means to be an American woman. And in his closing speech, Irving Saypole refers to the fact that Ethel had used this typewriter to strike the keys just as she had thousands of times struck blow by blow against her country.

[Sally Helm]

Ethel is also portrayed during the trial as an unfair someone who chose communism over her children.

[Anne Seba]

That's the real irony of this story, is that Ethel wanted nothing more than to be a wife and a mother. But she was portrayed as this wicked witch like character who was not only transgressive and deviant, but didn't smile and didn't dress properly and somehow was threatening the whole notion of American womanhood.

[Sally Helm]

After a night of deliberation, the jury convinces that one holdout and they come out with a verdict for both Julius and Ethel. Guilty of conspiracy to commit espionage. After the verdict is read, Julius and Ethel are taken out of the courtroom. They're brought to separate jail cells to await transport back to their respective prisons. To cheer up Ethel, Julia starts to sing and then Ethel begins to sing too. And aria from the opera Madame Butterfly.

[Ben]

Hey, History. This week, listeners, your producer Ben here. We talk a lot about time on this show. History moves pretty fast. Maybe sometimes you feel like you don't have time to treat yourself like go out and get a gourmet meal. Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor arrives fresh and fully prepared, perfect for any active, busy lifestyle. And you can pick meals that match up with your dietary preferences, like Calorie Smart, Protein plus, or keto. I really liked their garlic butter chicken, which tasted like it came straight from my favorite restaurant. Reach your goals this year with ingredients you can trust and convenience that can't be beat. Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FactorMeals.com FactorPodcast and use code FactorPodcast to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's Code Factor Podcast at FactorMeals.com Factorpodcast to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box.

[Sally Helm]

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[Ben]

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[Sally Helm]

Dietitian for the last six months and it's been life changing. I've lost weight, healed my relationship with food and have way more energy. Working with a dietitian online to create a personalized nutrition plan was so easy. Thanks to Nourish. The best part, I pay $0 out of pocket because Nourish accept hundreds of insurance plans. 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com After Julius and Ethel Rosenberg are found guilty, some people come out strongly against the verdict and the punishment. Many Jewish groups push back against the death sentence specifically, but most are still sure to state that the guilty verdict is justified. They fear an anti Semitic backlash. But the majority of Americans did support the trial's outcome.

[Anne Seba]

The reaction really is that they deserved it. By the end, 70% of Americans believed that they should be electrocuted.

[Sally Helm]

Many argued that if Ethel wanted to save herself for the sake of her children, all she had to do even after the guilty verdict, was name names. But was it that simple? And was Ethel involved enough in the first place to give any names? The authorities were looking for names they didn't already have. These are tough questions. The answers were murky back then, and only slightly less murky now that new information on the case has been made available. In 1995, the NSA decided to release decrypted Soviet intelligence messages that had been tracked and recorded in a decades long counterintelligence program called the Venona Project. Those Venona cables refer a lot to Julius Rosenberg under the codename Liberal. And they do refer to Ethel. But very briefly, a November 1944 document talks about Liberal's wife, Ethel, no code name. It says she, quote, knows about her husband's work and then it says she does not work in view of delicate health, does not work. Now that could mean that Ethel doesn't work in general, but Seba thinks it's about spying in particular, partly because the.

[Anne Seba]

Two men who decrypted these cables added a memo in which they add, does not work means that she's not involved in spying.

[Sally Helm]

There's one other brief reference to Ethel in the Venona cables, one that some people see as more damning. It has to do with the recruitment of David and Ruth greenglass. There's a September 1944 cable that talks about bringing Ruth into the spy ring and it briefly mentions Ethel. Liberal and his wife recommend her Ruth as an intelligent and clever girl. Some people argue this suggests Ethel was involved in recruiting Ruth and by extension her brother David. But others say it doesn't prove that at all. Maybe Julius just mentioned to a Soviet handler that his wife also thinks Ruth is smart. Ethel was also never given a codename, unlike Julius, David and Ruth, which some people think means she was never officially a spy. But the Venona cables were not introduced as evidence in the 1953 trial. At that time, the FBI didn't want the world to know they could decode Soviet messages. Ethel's name also appears in what are known as the Vasiliev notebooks, a Russian journalist's summaries of secret KGB files from the Rosenbergs era. They didn't come out until the 1990s, so they weren't a part of the trial. The notebooks suggest that Ethel was aware of her husband's activities and that on at least one occasion she provided some logistical support. They also suggest that the Soviets possibly planned to bring Ethel fully into their mission. But the spy ring was uncovered before that came to pass. As far as the trial itself, it comes out years later that some of the key evidence David Greenglass gave against his sister was simply made up. In 2001, Sam Roberts, a New York Times reporter and editor, manages to secure several interviews with Greenglass, the results of which are published in his book the The Untold Story of the Rosenberg case. Roberts spent 13 years tracking him down. Greenglass had been living under an assumed name. During one of these interviews, he admits to Roberts that he hadn't ever seen his sister typing.

[Anne Seba]

He couldn't remember if anybody had done any typing, and if they had, possibly it was his own wife. So this was completely invented testimony.

[Sally Helm]

Greenglass also claimed that Roy Cohn instructed him to lie on the stand, though Cohn had died well before those claims were made in 2001. David also explains in that interview why he chose to sacrifice the life of his sister over that of his wife. My wife is more important to me than my sister or my mother or my father. Okay. And she was the mother of my children. Of course, during all of this, Greenglass was not the only one facing a difficult decision. Ethel was told by authorities that she could talk or face the consequences.

[Anne Seba]

I found the big question that really I've spent hours trying to address is why didn't Ethel do everything within her power to try and save herself? I think she was absolutely trapped because she felt that if I say that my husband is a spy, and so they give me a custodial sentence, by the time I come out, my sons will be teenagers, and they will never forgive me because they'll believe that I killed their father. And I think she concluded that that was something she could not live with. She couldn't do it herself, but she didn't want her sons to have to live with that burden.

[Sally Helm]

This is only Anne Seba's educated guess. We don't know what was running through Ethel's mind. Nobody does. But the closest we can get are her two sons.

[E]

The visits were calm and quiet.

[Sally Helm]

That's Robert Meeropol, a lawyer and civil rights activist. Julius and Ethel were his biological parents. He and his brother Michael, a retired economics professor and political writer, visited their parents at Sing Sing Prison, just north of New York City, where they were held after their guilty verdict, awaiting execution.

[E]

You know, they weren't histrionic, you know, huge outbursts of emotion.

[Sally Helm]

Robert and Michael, who were 4 and 8 years old, respectively, when their parents were found guilty, remember their mother very differently from the way the newspapers and prosecutors at the time portrayed her. Do you remember those visits to prison that Robert is talking about, Michael? Do you remember the feeling of those?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, I remember things about them. I remember we sang songs sometimes. We played a game. Again, you can't make this stuff up. We played a game called Hangman. When the full stick figure is there and dangling from the noose, you've lost the game.

[Sally Helm]

Michael and Robert visit both their parents several times after their conviction. And for the most part, the meetings are calm.

[Greg Jackson]

Except for the last visit, because the last visit I did know the Visit was on the 16th of June. So as I was leaving, I said, and I started wailing, one more day to live one More day to live. Because every other visit, you know, it would be, hey, goodbye, love you, see you next time. This was no next time. I kind of insisted with that wailing that they treat this differently, which they didn't, of course. And in fact, my mother responded with a very heartfelt letter that when I read it later as a teenager and as an adult, it gave me great comfort, and it still does to this day.

[Sally Helm]

Did it answer questions that you had? Like, had you been living with those questions since that visit?

[Greg Jackson]

Well, it explained why they steeled themselves and couldn't cry with me and couldn't make a big deal about, oh my God, we may never see you again, because they didn't want that to be it. They wanted to believe that they would just make it. In fact, I later, when I interviewed my father's sister, one of the many family members that supported him and my mother, she told me, your father would say in every prison visit, sis, I think we'll just make it. And what he meant was that they'd get clemency, they'd have to serve time in prison, but they'd be able to stay alive and fight for their freedom.

[Sally Helm]

Unfortunately, Julius, hope for freedom does not manifest. Both he and Ethel are executed on June 19, 1953, just three days after this final visit with their sons. Robert and Michael are eventually adopted by a couple, Abel and Anne Meeropol, and the brothers take their last name. Now, almost 70 years since Julius and Ethel's execution, they've managed to reach a kind of peace regarding their parents decision to stay silent.

[E]

Basically the deal that they were offered was, you can save your life if you implicate your friends. As I look back on all that time, I think, well, it is true that they were offered a very powerful deal which basically said, cooperate, Julius, you'll be imprisoned, but you won't be killed. And Ethel, you'll be released to stay home and take care of the children. And if they had taken that deal, it might very well have been an easier life for me as a child. But that same deal was offered to the chief prosecution witnesses, David and Ruth Greenglass, and they took the deal. And so they've lived in hiding in shame for the rest of their lives and have this giant family secret hanging over them.

[Sally Helm]

David Greenglass spent nine years in prison for his crimes. And when he was released in 1960, he and Ruth reunited and lived with their children in New York City under fake names until their deaths. When ruth died in 2008, the public didn't know for weeks and When David died in 2014, it took months for an obituary to be published.

[E]

And I keep thinking, you know, I would much rather be the child of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg now than the child of David and ruth greenglass.

[Sally Helm]

In 1972, after years living in anonymity with the Maripoles, the brothers make the difficult decision to go public.

[Greg Jackson]

We ended up getting involved in a campaign to reopen the case, and we ended up writing a book about it. We ended up ultimately, a couple of decades later, publishing all the letters.

[Sally Helm]

And when it comes to their mother, it's important to them that she not disappear into obscurity as one of the two Rosenbergs. To them, she was always her own person. Here's Michael.

[Greg Jackson]

Well, I think that the idea that they are a unit and that they are inseparable, there's some aspect of that that is fair. The fact that they were resisting after they were arrested created a tremendous bond between them. It was love, but it was much more than love. It was a fusing. And so, in effect, they were a unit fighting back together. Even though one might have argued, say a slick lawyer might have said, well, you know, the evidence against Ethel is so much slimmer than the evidence against Julius.

[E]

Yeah. The thing that I would add to that is that the attitude that I've had vis a vis my mother is that everybody says, the Rosenbergs. And you say, well, okay, what did the Rosenbergs do? And the answer always is, what? Julius Rosenberg. So, in effect, that my mother's kind of disappeared into the case as an individual and as a person. And that's one of the things that we are trying to do, is to rehabilitate her as an individual, not someone who disappears into her husband.

[Sally Helm]

Ethel was a singer, a communist, some single, say, a spy. She was a wife who once got a crocodile handbag from a Soviet handler, a mom who wanted her kids to call her by her first name. She was a person, a specific one, and many things about her will always be a mystery foreign. Thanks for listening to history this week. For moments throughout history that are also worth watching, check your local TV listings to find out what's on the History Channel today. If you want to get in touch, please shoot us an email at our email address historythisweekhistory.com or you can leave us a voicemail 212-351041. We are reading and listening, and we really love to hear from you, so please reach out. Special thanks today to our guests Anne Seba, author of Ethel An American Tragedy, and Michael and Robert Meeropol, the Sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Thanks also to Stephen Usten, journalist and author of Engineering How Two Americans Spied for Stalin and Founded the Soviet Silicon Valley. This episode was produced by Ben Dickstein, sound designed by Dan Rosado, and story edited by Mary Knoff. History this week is also Produced by Julie McGruder, Julia Press and me, Sally Helm. Our associate producer is Emma Fredericks, our supervising producer is McCamey Lynn, and our executive producer is Jesse Katz. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review History this week, wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next week.