When Nazis Killed Nazis in the Middle of America - HISTORY This Week

Summary

HISTORY This Week: When Nazis Killed Nazis in the Middle of America

Episode Release Date: August 4, 2025
Host: Alana Casanova Burgess
Guest: William Giraud, Author of Murder, Retribution and the Forgotten Story of Nazi POWs in America

1. Introduction

In this gripping episode of HISTORY This Week, Alana Casanova Burgess delves into a lesser-known chapter of World War II history: the experiences of Nazi prisoners of war (POWs) in the United States. Through detailed narration and insights from author William Giraud, the episode explores the complexities of American justice meted out to Nazi POWs and the internal conflicts that arose within the camps.

2. The Battle and Capture of U-615

The story begins on August 7th, 1943, with the sinking of the German U-boat U-615 off the coast of Venezuela. This event marks a pivotal moment as it leads to the capture of Nazi sailors who would become POWs in America.

William Giraud [01:48]: "Dawn is breaking over the Caribbean Sea and it's finally quiet. For the last week, an intense battle has been raging here between air and sea."

The Allies' relentless pursuit culminates in the crippling of U-615, resulting in the capture of 43 survivors who are transported to the United States, joining the ranks of nearly 400,000 German POWs housed across the country during the war.

3. Arrival of Nazi POWs in America

Upon their arrival, these POWs were met with a stark contrast to the brutal conditions they had endured. The American adherence to the Geneva Convention ensured that the prisoners received humane treatment, leading to an unexpected dynamic between captors and captives.

William Giraud [09:10]: "We were expecting these mighty ferocious looking characters. But once they got there, it was like, this is the master race. These forlorn, exhausted looking guys are Hitler's great warriors."

The POWs were provided with adequate food, comfortable living conditions, and opportunities to engage with American families, challenging their preconceived notions fueled by Nazi propaganda.

4. The Geneva Convention and American Treatment of POWs

The United States' commitment to the Geneva Convention was pivotal in shaping the treatment of Nazi POWs. This approach aimed to reciprocate humane treatment, fostering an environment where enemy soldiers could observe American values firsthand.

William Giraud [11:03]: "See, the United States, and Germany for that matter, had signed on to a little treaty called the Geneva Convention back in 1929. It requires prisoners of war to be kept under similar living conditions to a country's own soldiers."

However, this policy was not uniformly applied, as evidenced by the disparate treatment of German POWs compared to African American soldiers and Japanese Americans in internment camps.

5. Leon Jaworski's Assignment

Enter Leon Jaworski, a Texas-born attorney with a personal history shaped by witnessing anti-immigrant bigotry and violence during World War I. Despite being exempt from the draft, Jaworski joins the Judge Advocate General's (JAG) Corps in 1943, driven by a sense of duty to prosecute crimes within the POW camps.

William Giraud [08:27]: "He wanted to join particularly the JAG Corps, the Judge Advocate General's office, the legal arm. He wanted to be an army prosecutor."

Jaworski's role becomes crucial as tensions within the POW camps escalate, leading to internal conflicts and violent confrontations among the Nazi prisoners.

6. Internal Nazi Conflicts and Murders

The episode highlights two significant incidents of murder within the POW camps:

Camp Concordia, Kansas
The death of Captain Felix Tropschu under mysterious circumstances raises suspicions of extrajudicial executions orchestrated by Nazi leaders within the camp.

William Giraud [18:33]: "But something's off."

Investigations reveal that Tropschu was forced to commit suicide by Colonel Alfred Kester for dissenting against Nazi ideology, as evidenced by his diary.
Camp Tonkawa, Oklahoma
The brutal murder of Corporal Johan Kunze for allegedly attempting to betray Nazi secrets to Americans underscores the depth of internal strife and fanaticism among the POWs.

William Giraud [22:23]: "He was a strong guy, and he fought them off. But eventually, you had a mob of dozens of guys just swarming over him and hurled him against the concrete base of a building until they cracked his skull."

These incidents expose the volatile environment within the camps, where extremist factions enforced brutal justice against perceived traitors.

7. The Trial and Execution of Nazi POWs

Jaworski faces the daunting task of prosecuting these murders within the constraints of American law. The challenge lies in attributing individual responsibility within mob actions, often relying on scant confessions obtained under duress.

William Giraud [24:09]: "The problem was that when you have a killing by a mob, you can't just charge a bunch of people and say, this mob killed him. You have to attach individual people to individual acts."

Despite limited evidence, Jaworski secures convictions against five prisoners from Camp Tonkawa, leading to their execution. This case sets a precedent for holding Nazi POWs accountable for internal camp violence.

William Giraud [25:01]: "In the end, Jaworski only gets five prisoners to admit they played small parts in the murder of Johann Kunze."

However, these trials also spark international controversy, particularly with Nazi Germany demanding transparency, leading to strained diplomatic relations.

8. Reciprocal Executions by Nazis in Germany

In retaliation for the executions of their own prisoners, Nazi Germany initiates a series of reciprocal executions against American POWs. This tit-for-tat violence escalates the moral and legal complexities of wartime justice.

William Giraud [32:04]: "The Geneva Convention requires the US to give Germany the details of the convictions before they can execute prisoners of war."

Despite initial reluctance, the U.S. government agrees to a prisoner exchange, but the rapid advancement of Allied forces disrupts the negotiations, rendering the deal ineffective as the war concludes.

9. Negotiations and Trade of Prisoners

Amidst the chaos of a collapsing Nazi regime, the U.S. engages in delicate negotiations to address the reciprocal executions. However, the deteriorating situation in Germany hampers effective communication and resolution, leaving many executions to proceed unchecked.

William Giraud [35:08]: "They're weighing the safety of the 85,000 American POWs still in German custody, who could all be condemned to death by an erratic and desperate enemy with a penchant for mass murder."

Ultimately, the U.S. proceeds with the execution of convicted Nazi POWs, despite international and ethical repercussions, concluding a dark chapter of wartime justice.

10. Aftermath and Jaworski’s Career

The harrowing experiences of prosecuting Nazi POWs leave an indelible mark on Leon Jaworski. Despite his significant contributions during the war, Jaworski opts out of participating in the Nuremberg Trials, redirecting his focus to high-profile legal battles in the United States, including his role in the Warren Commission and the investigation into President John F. Kennedy's assassination.

William Giraud [40:38]: "The experience prosecuting Nazis left a permanent imprint on Jaworski. He became intimately familiar with these prisoners, these soldiers, later forcing him to conclude that, 'all Germans of ordinary intelligence knew that Hitler's course was evil and wrong.'"

Conclusion

"When Nazis Killed Nazis in the Middle of America" offers a profound exploration of the moral ambiguities and legal challenges faced by the United States during World War II. Through meticulous research and compelling narration, the episode sheds light on a forgotten aspect of history, emphasizing the enduring lessons on justice, humanity, and the complexities of wartime ethics.

Leon Jaworski [40:32]: "I believe at the time to be the best interest of the nation."

Notable Quotes

William Giraud [01:48]: "For the last week, an intense battle has been raging here between air and sea."
William Giraud [09:10]: "These men who they had expected to be great warriors, but once they got there, it was like, this is the master race."
William Giraud [18:33]: "But something's off."
William Giraud [24:09]: "The problem was that when you have a killing by a mob, you can't just charge a bunch of people and say, this mob killed him."
Leon Jaworski [40:32]: "I believe at the time to be the best interest of the nation."

Special Thanks to:
William Giraud for his invaluable insights and contribution to this episode.
Produced by Phoebe Lett and Ben Dickstein.
Soundtrack designed by Dan Rosado.
Executive Producers: Ben Dickstein, Eli Lair, and Liv Fiddler from the History Channel.

Stay updated and engage with us at historythisweekpodcast.com.
For inquiries, email: historythisweek@history.com.

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Transcript

Alana Casanova Burgess (0:00)

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William Giraud (1:15)

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Narrator (1:43)

The History Channel Original Podcast.

William Giraud (1:48)

History this week August 7th, 1943. I'm Alana Casanova Burgess. Dawn is breaking over the Caribbean Sea and it's finally quiet. For the last week, an intense battle has been raging here between air and sea. A Nazi U boat, U615, had been stalking allied tankers off the coast of Venezuela when it torpedoed a Dutch ship carrying crude oil. U boats are submarines, and the Germans are particularly good at building and deploying them, creating chaos on the high seas. Winston Churchill called the U boats the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war. The attack on the Dutch ship catches the attention of allied submarine hunters. And now they're on a relentless search to destroy U615. All week, the Nazi submarine has been on the defensive, diving deep beneath the waves to evade its enemies. But eventually, its luck runs out. The Allies hit just the right spot and U615 takes major damage. Its motors and part of its diving mechanism are destroyed. It's trapped in plain sight, exceedingly exposed above the Caribbean waves. A sitting duck thousands of miles from home and it's taking on water. But these Nazi soldiers have been trained to go down swinging. The crew takes to the deck and starts shooting with anti aircraft guns and a semiautomatic cannon. Desperate, the crew of U615 manages to take down one of the Allies planes and damage two more. But the Allies have the advantage and attack the immobilized submarine again and again. And now U615 is finally sinking. Their commander says goodbye and orders his crew to abandon ship. They shoot up flares and the 43 surviving members of U615 plunge into the Caribbean's shark infested waters. While they pray for rescue, their U boat slips beneath the waves for the last time. The survivors are pulled from the water and onto an Allied ship. They've just survived one of the longest naval battles between a German U boat and enemy aircraft. Nine days in all. And now they're in enemy hands, on their way to the United States where they'll join the ranks of what will total to almost 400,000 prisoners of war, all housed on American soil during World War II. Today, Nazi prisoners of war come to the United States. How did Americans make neighbors out of their most feared enemy? And what does justice for an enemy look like in the middle of a war? It's 1943 and the Allies have a problem. Well, a new problem. World War II has been raging for nearly four years and they're starting to rack up some wins against the Nazis. Great. But that means capturing prisoners. And in May 1943, after the total defeat of Germany's Afrika Korps, suddenly the Allies need some somewhere to put over 170,000 German POWs. At this point, author William Giraud says everyone turns to the U.S. and says, Your turn.