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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:13]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
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- [01:18]
Professor Helen Bond
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- [01:26]
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- [01:31]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
If, like me, you lived through the early 2000s and weren't a small child, you'd have found it hard to escape the Da Vinci Code. At the heart of Dan Brown's bestselling novel and its subsequent film adaptation is the theory that Jesus Christ fathered children whose descendants have secretly lived among us until the present day. The Da Vinci Code is fiction, but others have claimed this theory as fact. So what's the truth? Could Jesus have a hidden lineage? Welcome to series three of history's greatest conspiracy theories. From History Extra, I'm Rob Attar, and in today's episode I'm joined by Helen Bond, professor of Christian origins at the University of Edinburgh, to delve into the mystery of Jesus bloodline. What are our main sources for the life of Jesus?
- [02:20]
Professor Helen Bond
Well, nearly every entirely, I would say the the gospels, the four canonical gospels in the New Testament are the most historical. You get a few little bits and pieces in the letters of the Apostle Paul, but not very much and a a tiny little bit in the work of a Jewish historian called Josephus. But his notice about Jesus, unfortunately, has been edited by later Christian scribes. So although we can probably reconstruct a bit of a kernel of what he actually said. The actual thing probably is, but luckily, I mean, it pretty much agrees with what we've got in the Gospels.
- [02:57]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
And how consistent are those four canonical gospels in what they tell us about Jesus?
- [03:01]
Professor Helen Bond
They're fairly consistent, actually. I mean, you know, you get the impression that he's. He's from a rural context, he's from Galilee, a small town, a small village in Galilee. He's a prophetic figure, he's announcing the end of the world. He's linked in some way to John the Baptist who came before him. He gathers a group of disciples around him, he goes to Jerusalem, and there he gets into trouble with the aristocratic Jewish leadership and mainly the Roman governor. And the Roman governor puts him on a cross. And that, to some extent, is the end of the matter. Though the gospels again all agree, as does Josephus and Paul, that his disciples all thought that he'd come back again after the crucifixion, that he'd been raised to life. And the story of the resurrection is again common to all of them.
- [03:47]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
What, if anything, do these sources tell us about Jesus's family life in terms of whether he had a wife, whether he had any children, anything like that?
- [03:54]
Professor Helen Bond
Well, they tell us nothing at all. No reference to a wife, certainly no reference to children either in one of the Gospels. In Mark's gospel, it suggests that there's some strained relationship between Jesus and his parents and his brothers and sisters too. But they say nothing at all about a wife of any kind.
- [04:14]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Do they then also specifically say that Jesus lived a chaste life, that he was unmarried, or is it just sort of left unknown?
- [04:20]
Professor Helen Bond
Yeah, no, you're right. They don't say that he was unmarried and they don't say that he lived a chaste life. So, yeah, they just don't go there at all.
- [04:28]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
But is it fair to say that had Jesus been married and had he had children, that would have been presumably covered in these things?
- [04:33]
Professor Helen Bond
Well, I expect so, yeah. I mean, it's really difficult to know. You know, there's nothing there. So what, what do we make of that? I mean, yes. I mean, there's no shame in being married. In fact, quite the opposite. You know, it's a biblical command, be fruitful, multiply. So in some ways it's a little bit strange to find a man around about 30 or so who's not married. But I mean, I think there are plenty of reasons that might be the case in the case of Jesus. So I think had there been A wife, they would have said so. And certainly if there had been a wife amongst that group of women who seem to have followed him from Galilee, there's no particular reason why they wouldn't have said that.
- [05:14]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
A lot of the conspiracy theories surrounding this idea of Jesus's bloodline focus on the idea that Jesus had descendants and that the mother of them was Mary Magdalene. What do these biblical sources tell us about her?
- [05:26]
Professor Helen Bond
Actually, far less than you would imagine. Mary really comes into her own at the story of the Cross. She's one of the women who we find out have followed Jesus from Galilee, and she's there at the empty tomb as well. And in fact, in. In Matthew's Gospel and John's Gospel, she has a vision of the resurrected Jesus. In Luke's Gospel, we find out that she had seven demons and Jesus exorcised them from her. But that's pretty much all we have of Mary. The interesting thing about her, though, is that whereas all of the gospels have slightly different lists of women, Mary Magdalene is common to all of them. And she's always the first one mentioned. And that does give you the impression that she's actually, you know, the most important of these women. Maybe, you know, given the patriarchal nature of the times, maybe she is kind of the leader of a mission to women in the same way that Peter later becomes sort of the leader of the mission to the men. I mean, this is a society where Peter and. And the male disciples couldn't just go into somebody's home and touching women, baptizing them, anointing them, healing them. So you would have needed women. And we do know too, that from very early on, Christian missionaries go around as one man, one woman. So again, you know, you get the impression that Mary is the important person here. We may also be able to tell a little bit from her name. She's called Mary Magdalene, which traditionally has been thought to mean she's from the fishing town of Magdala on the west side of the Sea of Tiberius. That's possible, but it's also possible that it comes from the Aramaic migdal, and it's actually a nickname meaning something like Tower, Tower Lady. And we do know that Jesus, of course, gave other disciples nicknames. He calls Simon Peter the Rock. He gives other people nicknames too. So it wouldn't be too surprising if Mary has had this nickname given to her, the Tower Woman. So the kind of the little clues that we get in the gospels suggest that she's actually quite a big deal in her time. Although the gospel writers you know, they're telling us the story of Jesus and they don't really go into Mary's prominence too much.
- [07:40]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Many listeners to this podcast will have heard this idea that Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute. From what you're saying, this didn't appear, I'm assuming, in the canonical gospels. Where does this idea originate from?
- [07:51]
Professor Helen Bond
It originates because of a strange thing, that Mary is by far the most common name in first century Israel. So you get lots and lots of Marys around. As you can tell just by reading the Gospels. You know every other person is called Mary. And so you get this kind of conflation of Mary's. So Mary Magdalene gets linked up with Mary of Bethany, who seems to be a completely separate woman. But Mary of Bethany anoints Jesus and then these two Marys get linked up again by an unknown sinful woman from the city in Luke's Gospel, who also anoints Jesus. So you get a sort of conflation of what are originally three characters, victors, all sort of being bunged together. And people think, ah, this is Mary Magdalene, she was a prostitute and she came to Jesus and he forgave her. So it's not there in the Gospels at all. But you see it sort of coming into being in the sort of early church and it really gets nailed down by Pope Gregory the great in the 6th century. He gives his great Easter address on Mary Magdalene, the penitent prostitute. And. And from then on it's. It's a favorite of art and sermons that the fallen who repented and. And so she has a. She has a job to do in terms of providing that role, but it's absolutely not there in the New Testament.
- [09:15]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
So these conspiracy theories that allege that Jesus had a relationship with Mary Magdalene and they had children, what's the earliest point we could trace them back to?
- [09:23]
Professor Helen Bond
I think the first glimmerings are from what's known as Gnostic literature. So the Gnostics were a sort of a philosophical movement from the 2nd century or so onwards. And they were Platonic, Platonist philosophers. They thought in terms of dualism. Everything is good or bad, light or darkness. And some of these Gnostics were Christians and they were very interested in secret knowledge and they produced their own gospels. So from the 4th 5th century or so onwards, we get these Gnostic gospels. Now, some of them, not all by any means, but some of them also have Mary Magdalene as quite a significant character. So the Gospel of Philip, for example, talks about Mary Magdalene as Jesus's companion. And he says that Jesus used to kiss her on her. And unfortunately, the bit of the manuscript is missing that would tell us. But in any case, you know, we're clearly in the world of a very close relationship between Jesus and Mary. And they seem to be kind of expanding the story in John's Gospel where Mary is there alone at the tomb. Jesus comes along and they have this dialogue. And so they're very interested in dialogues from the risen Jesus because they. They don't like anything fleshy because they're Platonists. So they like the idea of the risen Jesus is now talking to Mary. And although she's not described as a wife in these texts, she is a companion and there is this close relationship. But the problem is it's so difficult to know what to do about these texts. Generally speaking, Gnostics do not like women. Women are part of this sort of lesser creation, unlike men, who of course are part of the higher species. It's just very difficult to know.
- [11:09]
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- [11:10]
Professor Helen Bond
They definitely don't seem to be working with historical references. Some of these gospels are completely wacky. This is not the world of kind of, you know, eyewitness and. And history. So difficult to know what to do with, with those texts. But they certainly give Mary this sort of prominent role. But I very much doubt that it's going back to any historical reminiscence.
- [11:33]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
And those theories that developed, some of them posit this idea that Mary Magdalene then went to what is now France and took her children or was pregnant when she went there and then raised her children in France again. Where does this idea come from? Is there any evidence from the biblical era of Mary Magdalene going to France?
- [11:51]
Professor Helen Bond
No, definitely not. I mean, what we see, though, throughout the medieval period is every country wants its own saints. You know, they want a bit of the action in Britain, too. So we have the story of Joseph of Arimathea, makes his way to Glastonbury or Cornwall or both of them, you know, so we have our saint, and Joseph of Arimathea was very useful for the English, particularly in medieval times, as being, you know, their link with the disciples. And you get St. Andrew, of course, comes to Scotland, you have Thomas goes to India. Every country has its own thing and it's all about relics and, you know, legitimacy. You have James going to Spain and all the rest of it. So Mary Magdalene going to France is just part. Part of this normal kind of medieval thing about claiming your saint. So there are all kinds of stories about Mary and maybe with Lazarus, maybe with Martha and Mary sailing off to France and They land in Provence and this is sort of where their legend is particularly strong. So in these early stories, though, there is absolutely no suggestion that Mary was the wife of Jesus or is bringing children. But there's a strange thing linked to the Cathars, this sort of 13th century heretical group. And we know very little about the Cathars and why they were actually persecuted. But some of their opponents do suggest that they believe that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. I don't know whether they're supposed to have had children or not, but certainly that's supposedly one of the things that they said. So these early stories, even though they have Mary Magdalene going to France, they still don't have any bloodlines. It's only really when you get to the modern period, 19th, 20th century, particularly the 20th century, that people kind of go wild with this idea that, oh, you know, we can connect all of these dots and then add some more and have Mary Magdalene coming to France, married to Jesus, she brings sort of the bloodline to France. And then you get, you know, the stories that, that we know so well from the Da Vinci Code and, and elsewhere.
- [14:04]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Do we in reality know anything about what did happen to Mary Magdalene following Jesus's death? Do the biblical sources say much about that?
- [14:11]
Professor Helen Bond
No. It's such a shame because the book of Acts, of course, tells us what happens after the crucifixion and it tells the story for the next 30 years or so until the message has got to Rome. So you would expect to have maybe a little bit about Mary Magdalene in that. But strangely, she's not mentioned at all. Now that might be because she didn't do very much or she stayed around Jerusalem. It's also possible, I think, quite probable, in fact, that the author of Acts is. He's much more interested in telling sort of the male story, you know, so he kind of follows male missionaries. He tells us about what Peter and John did, he tells us about what Stephen did, and then he tells us about what Paul did, St. Paul. And he's very much following this kind of male disciple line. If Mary was mainly sort of going to women, a much more sort of domestic ministry perhaps, then I think he just wouldn't have thought it was worth mentioning. You know, it's what the men are doing that he wants to be telling us about. So no, unfortunately she just sort of drops out of history completely.
- [15:22]
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- [15:53]
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- [16:36]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
So if we don't really have any contemporary biblical sources to back up any of these theories, what kind of sources are the modern day writers drawing on?
- [16:47]
Professor Helen Bond
Well, they're just finding these tiny little details. So a major thing is the fact that the Gnostic text texts mention Mary in this sort of close relationship with Jesus. So, you know, that's something very good to go on. And then the Cathar heresy, you know, is what's behind that. In the book Holy Blood and Holy Grail by Beijing Leon Lincoln, they then argue that Holy Grail is not a vessel, you know, a chalice or something used at the Last Supper as is traditionally thought, but it actually refers to Sangreal, the, the hol blood, and it's the holy blood of Jesus. But not even that because, I mean, even in medieval times there are stories that Joseph of Arimathea collected the blood of Jesus and brought it to England actually. But what they say is that it's not actually Jesus's blood as such, but Jesus's bloodline. And so that then becomes Mary bearing the child. And. And I mean they bring in every conspiracy that possibly could be. So Jesus's children are then united with the Merovingian rulers of Lankish kingdom. The Cathars get involved later on, the Priory of Sion kind of becomes part of this, keeping the COVID up. And of course, if what you're saying is there's been this massive big cover up throughout history. Then of course there's no evidence. And in a way the lack of evidence is proof of the COVID up. So yeah, these stories just kind of feed off each other.
- [18:23]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
I think it's fairly clear that there aren't really any strong sources to back up this theory. Are there any sources or any arguments that clearly debunk the idea of Jesus having had this bloodline?
- [18:34]
Professor Helen Bond
Well, again, it's trying to prove a negative, isn't it? I think the best arguments against Jesus having any kind of children at all is that he was clearly a prophet of the end time. He joined John the Baptist movement. John was saying, the end is coming, get ready, God is coming in judgment. Jesus's message is just the same. He's saying, you know, the end is coming. Don't plan for the future because the end is coming soon. And you get references. I mean there's a, there's something in, in Matthew's gospel, Matthew 19, where he says, you know, there are people who are eunuchs by birth, people who are made eunuchs, you know, castrated males, but you should become a eunuch for this, the kingdom. This is a very strange thing to say. But what he seems to be meaning there is that don't get married and have kids because the end of the world is coming. And you get exactly the same thing in the Apostle Paul in his letters too. He says, you know, don't get married. This is a time of course, where marriage and children are all part of the package. He's saying, don't get married, be like me, be single, because the end of the world is coming. And I think if you truly believe that you are the last generation, then what is the point of getting married and having children? And I think the idea that Jesus got married and you know, had children at the same time that he's saying, you know, become eunuchs and the, the end of the world is coming. It just doesn't quite square. But it's strange, I mean, it's strange why people like this idea of Jesus having a child and this whole sort of conspiracy. Anti vasican, I suppose, anti Catholic, to the extent actually that a fragment of papyrus was found just a few years ago in 2012. You know, it was very famous at the time. It was a tiny, tiny little fragment written in Coptic. And in it Jesus talks about Mary Magdalene as his wife. So scholars got very, very excited by this until people did a little bit more work on it and found out that actually it was a forgery. And then of course the Whole thing was kind of dropped. But it did take in a few serious scholars, and the Harvard Theological Review was going to publish it. So clearly somebody thought it was worthwhile spending time forging this. This tiny little document that has Jesus talking about a wife. So it appeals to something in the modern period, I think, this idea that. That Jesus had a wife and. And maybe even a family.
- [21:01]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Do you have any sense of why this theory has become more popular in recent times? Is it purely the success of the Da Vinci Code, or is there something more going on?
- [21:09]
Professor Helen Bond
I think it was already gaining traction before the Da Vinci Code because, you know, the. There's the sort of. The big explanation of all of this does come from Bagent and Lee and Lincoln, their holy blood and Holy Grail. That was back in 1982. So that was quite a while before Dan Brown, who was 2003. So I think there's this idea that, you know, let's make Jesus more normal. You know, people like Jesus, even if they don't like the Church. And, you know, what was Mary Magdalene doing? Once we've sort of accepted the idea that she wasn't a prostitute, then how do we account for her? What's going on? And in a way, you know, we have exactly the same model available as for Robin Hood. You know, it's Robin Hood, Merry Men and Maid Marian, you know, who's there because she's in love with the boss. And this is, you know, a mental picture that we've had for years. And somehow Jesus just gets sort of slotted into this. And I don't know whether it is. Explains Mary to some extent. I certainly think it explains her away. I don't think it's a particularly useful picture for women to have Mary Magdalene going from prostitute one minute to wife of the boss the next minute. It's just a way of dealing with Mary, dealing with awkward women who are where they shouldn't be, perhaps, you know, in amongst a group of male followers. But, yeah, I don't know, more interest perhaps in humanizing Jesus. And also just this love of conspiracies. We love conspiracy, particularly if we can bring in the Vatican. And the Catholic Church hasn't been doing so well in certain areas, particularly to do with family circumstances. So if we can add to that, you know, here's another thing that's been kept secret. I think people just love all of that.
- [22:58]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
On that note, have theologians or people in the Church sought to try and discredit this theory or have they just tried to ignore it?
- [23:05]
Professor Helen Bond
I think generally speaking, they Just kind of roll their eyes and think, oh, here we go again. And. And, you know, I mean, some of these books are making millions. I mean, Dan Brown's book was so successful, you know, making absolute fortunes on the back of what is really historical nonsense. Yeah, I think most of the time they just kind of roll their eyes. I mean, there are. There have been some, you know, particularly people who engage with sort of more popular writing and that kind of thing, who've written books and articles and really discredited it. And I think that's a really useful thing to do because the problem is it's all very, well, academics rolling their eyes because. But, you know, people are not there to see the eye rolls. People need to be told. Actually, it's a nice story, but that's all it is, it's fiction. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever in the early church. And all we know about Jesus would suggest that he's not likely to have been married.
- [23:57]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
And surely another objection to this theory is the fact that if Jesus had had children, we're talking 2,000 years, almost everyone in the world would now be descended from Jesus. Unless the line had died out early in terms of, you know, by the time you go back that many generations, we'd all be descended from Jesus.
- [24:12]
Professor Helen Bond
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think there's sort of like a double problem. One is that mortality rates, particularly amongst the young, were incredibly high in the ancient world. I mean, half of people died before they reached maturity. So actually, although lots of people have lots of children, they don't survive. Most people only have a couple of children that survive. So on one level, if he just had one child, the chance of it surviving are probably fairly slim. But on the other hand, as you say, you know, if these children did survive, given all of these generations, it's quite possible, yeah, that we're all descended. And I just think it doesn't really make much sense.
- [24:51]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Are there other similar conspiracy theories about Jesus and his life or is there something particularly distinctive about this one?
- [24:59]
Professor Helen Bond
Yeah, this is the main one. I mean, there's all kinds of stories about, you know, they're mainly sort of supplementary stories, so, you know, stories about what he might have done as a child when he went to Egypt and this kind of thing. And I mean, a lot linked with the tomb. You know, ideas that he didn't really die in the tomb, but he was resuscitated in the cool air and went off to India or somewhere and kind of had a whole new life. So you do get sort of stories at the, the beginning and the end. And these non canonical gospels, later Christian gospels, expand on some of them, although most of the time that they're perfectly orthodox. You know, they're not kind of saying he's being resuscitated in the tomb or anything like that. So I think where you get the stor really, particularly in the modern period, is the bits of the story that we know less about. So, you know, the early years and what happened after the crucifixion, if anything. So I think those are the, those are the sort of the pressure points. But no, I mean, I think it's particularly the marriage, supposed marriage to Mary and this sort of intriguing idea of whether Jesus had any children. That seems to have been quite a modern thing.
- [26:08]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
As an academic yourself and someone who, who tries to work seriously with these kind of sources, how do you feel about things like the Da Vinci Code, which on the one hand popularise inaccurate theories, but on the other hand probably do increase interest in the area you're talking about and that you want to share knowledge of. How do you feel about those kind of things?
- [26:25]
Professor Helen Bond
Yeah, I mean, mainly the latter actually, because, you know, we wouldn't be having this podcast here if it wasn't for stories like this. You know, I wouldn't get the chance to say to all your listeners that, you know, don't believe everything you read in these texts, text. So I think it's certainly the case that they do raise interest in Jesus. I mean, another thing actually that you know, has been very prominent lately is the whole Jesus didn't exist thing. So I mean, I guess aside from Mary Magdalene, that's the biggest conspiracy story, that it's all sort of made up by Paul and then the, the gospel writers. But again, I think, you know, any chance you get to kind of respond to the idea that Jesus didn't exist or Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene gives you a chance to talk about what we do know about Jesus. And actually the historical sources are pretty good for somebody who's a peasant like Jesus. Jesus is a social class from a backwater province, a rural area. We do know a lot about him from a very early time. So our sources for Jesus are pretty good.
- [27:27]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
So actually, I mean, on that point, I've certainly read arguments that Jesus wasn't a historical figure and that because he's predominantly mentioned in the Bible, we can't necessarily trust that. So you would contend that actually the source material supporting Jesus having existed, I mean, not necessarily that he was the Son of God, but that there was a Historical Jesus you think is pretty strong?
- [27:44]
Professor Helen Bond
Oh, yeah, I think extremely strong. I mean, Paul is writing within 20 years of Jesus's crucifixion. He knows Jesus's friends, the disciples. He knows Jesus's family. He mentions them. I think the idea that this is just a made up story, it's such an odd story to make up. I don't think anybody would really imagine that a story of this sort of rural carpenter who gets killed on a Roman cross was likely to take over the world in, in the way that it has. It would be such a strange thing for anybody to make up. And, you know, we, we have good sources about Jesus. I mean, the, the Gospels don't seem to be dependent on Paul. Maybe 40 years between the time of Jesus and the Gospels, but it's not that bad really. And, you know, nobody in antiquity suggests that Jesus didn't exist. Of course, the gospel writers are writing to, to encourage faith, and they're writing with their own agendas. They're not writing strictly historical reports. But the fact that they mention Jesus, you know, as a historical character, I think is significant.
- [28:49]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
So just to summarise, then, real man, but no kids?
- [28:52]
Professor Helen Bond
I would say so, yeah. Yep. Expecting the end of the world to come. And that's why there's no need for kids, because he's the last generation.
- [29:01]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
That was Professor Helen Bond. Helen is the author of, among other things, a Very Brief History, published by spck. She also has her own podcast, Biblical Time Machine, which you can find on Apple and Spotify. And that's all for today, but do join us again next time and we'll be examining the theory that an imposter has been masquerading as Paul McCartney for more than half a century. Plus, head to the History Extra app or your favorite podcast player to binge the previous two seasons of History's Greatest Conspiracy Theories.
- [29:38]
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- [30:09]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
Hello.
- [30:10]
Professor Helen Bond
Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney plus and Hulu we are digital.
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Professor Helen Bond
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- [30:29]
Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
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- [30:31]
Professor Helen Bond
Get Runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney and Hulu. Rated PG 13.
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Podcast Host (Rob Attar)
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