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Dana Schwartz (2:24)

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Dana Schwartz (2:42)

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Lizzie Logan (3:13)

Folks.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (3:14)

It's a hoax outcome.

Lizzie Logan (3:17)

No one ever seems to believe me.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (3:20)

When I swear I never was.

Lizzie Logan (3:22)

To see this, I'm left wondering.

Dana Schwartz (3:28)

Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the.

Lizzie Logan (3:30)

Lies we wish were true and truths that sound like lies.

Dana Schwartz (3:33)

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

Lizzie Logan (3:34)

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzy Logan. Welcome to the show. Now, Dana, I think there's been a bit of confusion about our podcast.

Dana Schwartz (3:44)

Oh, is there?

Lizzie Logan (3:45)

And I think that this episode might open the door to even more confusion.

Dana Schwartz (3:51)

Oh, no.

Lizzie Logan (3:52)

About what exactly is a hoax versus a scam versus a con versus a grift versus just a very effectively marketed.

Lizzie Logan (4:06)

Series, let's say.

Dana Schwartz (4:07)

Like a publicity stunt.

Lizzie Logan (4:08)

Exactly.

Dana Schwartz (4:10)

I kind of feel like it's like overlapping Venn diagram circles. Yes.

Lizzie Logan (4:13)

And I. And I just want to say for the record, the way that you can tell something is a hoax is if we want to cover it on the.

Dana Schwartz (4:24)

Podcast, if we find it interesting enough to want to talk about. If one of us decides that it's worth talking about.

Lizzie Logan (4:30)

Ultimately that is the deciding criterion.

Dana Schwartz (4:33)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (4:35)

That we just want to talk about it on the podcast. So don't overthink it.

Dana Schwartz (4:38)

I will also say for me, in my mind, there has to be a public facing aspect to it.

Lizzie Logan (4:43)

Yeah. I mean, there are.

Dana Schwartz (4:44)

Like, we, like, we kind of have an internal logic.

Lizzie Logan (4:48)

Yes. Like there are actual criteria. Like, yeah, you have to dupe the public. And it has to have an element of whimsy and like this, that and the other. But like, really what this podcast is about, it's about things that we want to talk about on the podcast.

Dana Schwartz (5:00)

Rabbit holes that we find interesting. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (5:04)

And one of those today is The Saga of Lonelygirl 15.

Dana Schwartz (5:10)

Interesting. And I actually, I'm vaguely aware of this. I do fully think this is a hoax. My relationship to lonelygirl15 was I had zero understanding or interaction with this. And then when I sort of heard the news stories about it that this thing kind of was a hoax. Was a scam, I guess. Not a scam, really, but was a hoax. I felt the fundamental discomfort of realizing that there was a thing happening that I had no involvement in. Like, when I find out that something is like, big on TikTok and I haven't interacted with it at all, or when they're like, oh, this musical artist is the. You know, sells millions of. No one's selling records, gets millions of streams and I've never heard of them. That, like, anxiety. This is one of the first moments when I realized, like, oh, this is just a. Like, YouTube things is something I'm not involved in. So my understanding of it is that there was a sort of direct to camera vlogger who went by lonelygirl15, who was purporting to sort of be giving Slice of Life updates. And it turns out she was an actress and it wasn't real.

Lizzie Logan (6:21)

Maybe, maybe not.

Dana Schwartz (6:22)

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. But that sentence is kind of all I know. Like, but I didn't like the feeling that this lonelygirl15 was like a phenomenon. And I was like, how have I not even heard of this?

Lizzie Logan (6:33)

Yeah, yeah. Well, now you're gonna hear it. I know you're gonna get all caught up. I can't wait 100%. Finally, you're gonna get all caught up. So lonelygirl15, I'll just take you through it and then I'll take you through, like, what it means.

Dana Schwartz (6:46)

Yeah. Are we on YouTube?

Lizzie Logan (6:47)

We are on YouTube. We're actually. We're right at the start of YouTube. YouTube launched Valentine's Day 2005.

Dana Schwartz (6:55)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (6:56)

And lonelygirl15, aka Bri, she posts a few videos prior to this, but her first, like, like, like face reveal, like, direct to camera address from her bedroom is uploaded on June 16, 2006. So very early in YouTube's existence.

Dana Schwartz (7:19)

Yeah, a year after YouTube comes, comes.

Lizzie Logan (7:21)

On a year and change after YouTube comes online. And she introduces herself as Bri. She says she's 16, she lives in a small town, and she's homeschooled. If I had to describe Bri in three words, I would say she's smart, she's pretty, and she's sheltered.

Dana Schwartz (7:34)

Okay. I mean, sounds like someone sounds like a girl that the public is going to love.

Lizzie Logan (7:40)

She likes. She's like a young 16. Yeah. She still plays with stuffed animals, but she's very smart. She likes science a lot. She explains SC scientific concepts in some of her videos, which I found, like, pretty engaging. And she. Her videos are like one to Three minutes long. And she uploads pretty often, like, every two to three days.

Dana Schwartz (8:00)

Oh, very short. Are they just supposed to be like, this is my life, or is she sending a mess? Like, what. What are her videos? I've never watched her video.

Lizzie Logan (8:07)

Yeah, her videos are like, she's bored, so she's like, today I'm gonna explain to you this funny concept, or today I'm gonna show you my different stuffed animals. So it's like, slice of life. But her life is very limited.

Dana Schwartz (8:26)

Okay?

Lizzie Logan (8:26)

And she has basically one friend, this guy Daniel, who's 18, and he goes to a regular public school, and he very obviously has a crush on her, but they're both pretending that this isn't happening. And most of the videos are just of them hanging out. And he sort of, like, just hangs out and reads magazines on her bed and is like, oh, Brie, I don't want to be in your videos.

Dana Schwartz (8:50)

That's cute. Did you find the videos engaging.

Dana Schwartz (8:55)

By.

Lizzie Logan (8:56)

The standards of, like, today? No, but sure, they go down easy. They go down easy.

Dana Schwartz (9:05)

It's like 2006. So we haven't been, like, poisoned by the TikTok algorithm of needing, like, constant zooms and cuts.

Lizzie Logan (9:14)

Here's what I'll say. Captions. I would much rather be a little bit bored than a little bit annoyed. So I would rather be under engaged than over engaged. Too many YouTubers, content makers, whatever, are yelling at you, and too many cuts and too many clicks and too much going on. And that really turns me off. This is the opposite, where I'm like, okay, they're kind of boring, but I'd rather that than the opposite. So I was fine watching this for a little bit like that.

Dana Schwartz (9:47)

It. It.

Lizzie Logan (9:48)

It didn't bother me.

Dana Schwartz (9:49)

It's like Hangout YouTube.

Lizzie Logan (9:51)

It's really Hangout YouTube. And Bri is, like, quite engaging.

Dana Schwartz (9:57)

I mean, there is something to be said for entertainment like podcasts. Like, a lot of. I would say a lot of. For me, like, cooking YouTube, where I just kind of want to throw it on in the background.

Lizzie Logan (10:08)

Daniel also has his own YouTube channel.

Dana Schwartz (10:10)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (10:10)

And sometimes there will be sort of, like, back and forths between their channels where Bri will mention something, and then Daniel will make his own video, being like, oh, I just saw Brie's video. Like, I'm so annoyed. And then Bri will be like, daniel, why did you post that? And then they'll film themselves, like, hashing it out.

Dana Schwartz (10:27)

Okay. Cute crossover episodes.

Lizzie Logan (10:30)

Yes, crossover episodes. And as the summer goes on, a few of her videos, like, take off she gets, like, a fan base. And they notice two things. Number one is that Bri belongs to some sort of religion that is strict that she doesn't want to open up about. Because previously when she's opened up about it, she says that she's, like, been bullied and people haven't been understanding.

Dana Schwartz (10:55)

I guess she's homeschooled. So you're like, all right, part of a religion.

Lizzie Logan (10:59)

Sure. She has a picture of Aleister Crawley, who's like a big figure in mid century occultism on her wall. And she talks about that she went to a summer camp for her religion and her family has moved around a lot. She mentions different countries that they've lived in.

Dana Schwartz (11:18)

Interesting.

Lizzie Logan (11:19)

And that she at one point lived on a commune and that she had to drop out of public school. And it sort of sounds like Christian fundamentalism, but also she's really into science, so it kind of doesn't square with that.

Dana Schwartz (11:30)

And Aleister Crowley, that's like, not Christian fundamentalism. No.

Lizzie Logan (11:34)

And, like, it sounds like Scientology, but it also doesn't sound like Scientology. So this is like, like cracking what group she's part of becomes sort of an interesting, almost like, game for her viewers. And the other thing that people start to notice is that this seems very fake. Really?

Dana Schwartz (11:52)

They note they could tell.

Lizzie Logan (11:53)

Yeah, it seems fake because why would you film yourself fighting with your friend and then post it on the Internet? Like, that seems fake.

Dana Schwartz (12:00)

Yeah. And now, of course, we're like, no, you're just making content. But back then it's.

Lizzie Logan (12:06)

Yeah, yeah. And like, people sort of debate. They're like, well, okay, she's homeschooled. Maybe she doesn't know social cues. Yeah. And like, you know, things can be fake and real at the same time. Like, you know, Laguna Beach. Like, yeah, they were doing. They were having scripted fights at prom, but that was their real prom.

Dana Schwartz (12:27)

And so maybe it's like she and Daniel are purposefully fighting in a video because they think it'll be a funny video. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (12:33)

But that doesn't mean that they're not really friends.

Dana Schwartz (12:35)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (12:36)

Like, that doesn't mean that her name isn't really Brie and his name isn't really Daniel. So figuring out what, like, even if part of it is fake, what part of it is fake? Like, these are the two sort of, I would guess, mysteries that people are trying to suss out not to bring.

Dana Schwartz (12:50)

Everything back to Taylor Swift.

Dana Schwartz (12:54)

But I will say, I think something that has contributed to Taylor Swift's longevity and fan base is, is that people listen to her songs and try to parse out how much is autobiographical and also want to parse out, you know, details of her life that aren't otherwise made clear. And so I think that inadvertently, lonelygirl15 has tapped into something that does create a very engaged fan base, which is people trying to get at a deeper truth beyond the surface and also parse out what level of reality they can glean from something that obviously is profound, formed.

Lizzie Logan (13:32)

Yes. So these are the things that the viewers are, like, discussing on message boards and discussing in the comments section. And that is becoming. I guess now we'd call it parasocial, but, like, becoming the interactive part of this. But let's set that aside for a sec, and I'm just going to tell you what you would have seen happen in Bree's life if you were just a viewer passively watching her videos and Daniel's videos in 2006.

Dana Schwartz (14:06)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (14:07)

In September, Brie reveals that she has been selected for a ceremony.

Dana Schwartz (14:12)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (14:14)

She has to go on a pretty extreme diet and learn a new language in preparation. She doesn't know when the ceremony is or what it entails. And because of this, Daniel thinks it's very shady and she should back out. And they get in a big fight, and then they make up. They sneak out of the house to go to a party. And Brie does the thing where she, like, makes the bed with her pillows under the. But she makes a video about it. Yeah. So she, like. One of the ongoing things is that, like, her parents don't know how the Internet works or, like, what a webcam is. So all of this, they're never gonna see.

Dana Schwartz (14:48)

Oh, fun.

Lizzie Logan (14:48)

But she, like, does the thing where she makes the bed with the pillows underneath the blanket to, like, make it look like she's sleeping.

Dana Schwartz (14:53)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (14:54)

Dana, did you. We never did. We never snuck out.

Dana Schwartz (14:57)

I was such a good girl, obviously.

Lizzie Logan (14:59)

But did you ever have a weird friend or, like, was there, like, a kid at your school who was part of, like, the Weird Religion?

Dana Schwartz (15:07)

There wasn't. No, not really. I mean, I guess I'm, like, aware of the trope of the weird kid.

Lizzie Logan (15:13)

Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (15:13)

And that's. I guess. Is that what you're saying she was, or is that what Daniel was.

Lizzie Logan (15:17)

No, that's what she was just watching this. That's what I was thinking of. Like, as I was watching all these videos, I was like, oh, I kind of remember a couple people I knew growing up where I was like, are you sure you can't come out tonight? Like, trying to figure out if they had strict Parents or like, weird parents.

Dana Schwartz (15:35)

Yeah. You know, what is your vibe?

Lizzie Logan (15:37)

Of course.

Dana Schwartz (15:37)

Yeah. There were definitely kids like that at my school. I was the one. I mean, I had a strict mom, but I was self strict. Yeah. I was just a nerd. But I will say good for. I mean, Brie is sneaking out.

Lizzie Logan (15:50)

Yeah, Brie's sneaking out and she sort of comes to the con. It's like a good, like, coming of age moment where she's like, I can still be part of my religion, but also go to parties. Like, these are not. She's like, daniel's friends are cool. And I had fun at this party.

Dana Schwartz (16:03)

I wasn't fundamentalist. And you know what happened when a boyfriend texted me on my Motorola razor and asked me to sneak out one night. You didn't do it. Are you kidding me? I'm in bed. No.

Lizzie Logan (16:17)

In mid September, Bri and Daniel kiss on the webcam. No. They just talk about it. They're like, we kissed last night.

Lizzie Logan (16:25)

But Bri is still preparing for the ceremony. And in some of the videos, she has a piece of gauze taped to her arm.

Dana Schwartz (16:32)

Worrisome.

Lizzie Logan (16:33)

And she says that her dad is giving her injections and she won't say what the injections are. Like, he won't tell her. And she's still learning the language. And she shows some of the letters of the language, and people in the comments figure out that it's Enochian.

Dana Schwartz (16:49)

What is Enochian?

Lizzie Logan (16:51)

Enochian is again, it's like a real fake language, which is. It's never been, like, spoken by any peoples.

Dana Schwartz (17:00)

It's an invented language?

Lizzie Logan (17:01)

Well, yes, it's invented or it's like a received language. I think it's from the Middle Ages.

Dana Schwartz (17:06)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (17:07)

It was these people who they say they got it from God to talk to angels.

Dana Schwartz (17:13)

Sure.

Lizzie Logan (17:14)

So it exists. It was not, you know, Bree didn't make it up, but it's not like a language that any culture on earth speaks.

Dana Schwartz (17:25)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (17:26)

And I also see.

Dana Schwartz (17:27)

I understand why people would be really engaged in these videos because not only are you like, oh, this cute couple is. They're kissing for the first. They have crushes on each other. But you're like, what is going to happen with Bri in this weird language? Like, what is her religion? What is this ceremony?

Lizzie Logan (17:42)

Right.

Dana Schwartz (17:42)

I want to know what's going to happen.

Lizzie Logan (17:44)

And there's a lot of details that I'm skipping over where there's, like, you know, references to weird temples and this, that, and the other. Bree gets a quote unquote helper named Lucy, who you like, see in the background sometimes, who's always wearing, like, a dark suit and sunglasses, who's, like, helping her prepare for the ceremony.

Dana Schwartz (18:00)

Again, I know this is a hoax, and I'm like, what are these, injections?

Lizzie Logan (18:06)

Daniel starts, like, following Bri around in, like, kind of a creepy way, and Brie's like, back off. And Daniel won't. Brie and Daniel stop speaking. Daniel follows Brie to, like, a hilltop in the middle of the night. Night. And, like, sees this, like, creepy ceremony with all these people in robes. But then it turns out that that was, like, a fake ceremony, like, meant to throw him off the scent. And Daniel breaks into Lucy's apartment and, like, finds all these weird maps, and he finds pictures on Lucy's computer of Daniel watching the fake ceremony. So, like, they're watching him while he's watching them. It's very creepy.

Dana Schwartz (18:43)

There's plot happening.

Lizzie Logan (18:44)

There's a lot. Um, and then finally, Bri tells her parents that she doesn't want to do the ceremony.

Dana Schwartz (18:49)

Good for Bri.

Lizzie Logan (18:50)

And they're like, okay, you don't have to. Why don't you go spend the night at Daniel's? And then when Daniel drives Bri back to her house, she sees her parents being, like, led out of the house by deacons from her religion and, like, being put in a car and driven away. And she goes into her house, and she finds a note that her parents left her in, like, a secret spot that only she would think to look in. And they're basically like, here's some money. Run away. Stay with Daniel. Don't trust anybody. And so she and Daniel, like, hit the road. Oh, and you finally find out the reason that they never go to the police is that there's, like, police in her religion. Which, by the way, is called the Order, of course.

Dana Schwartz (19:31)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (19:31)

And, like, she's, like, seen, like, judges from their town at, like, meetings of the religion. So she's like, I don't trust anybody. So she and Daniel take off. They're, like, living in the car, living.

Dana Schwartz (19:42)

Out of motels, still making little videos.

Lizzie Logan (19:45)

Still making little videos. And this is the other thing is, like, they're still teenagers, so, like, they're still, like, just, like, being cute and talking about science. Aw. Another channel pops up by this woman named Gemma, who, like, also used to be part of the Order. She's, like, maybe a year or two older than Bri, and she and Bri, like, crossed paths way back, like, when Bri was living with her family in England. And Gemma is, like, giving them advice on her YouTube channel. And she just, like, reveals some more information about the order and is also, like, talking about the issues that she's having with her flatmate in London.

Dana Schwartz (20:23)

I'm just like, I'm flabbergasted. This is so not what I thought that these videos were about. I thought these videos were where, like, a girl being like, oh, math class. And I have a boy with a crush, you know, boy I have a crush on. And, like, talking about friends. Just like, high school vlogs. I did not know that there was, like, a science fiction subplot to them.

Lizzie Logan (20:44)

Yeah, it takes a turn, and we'll get into how that turn was taken. Yeah, we're gonna get to all of it.

Dana Schwartz (20:51)

So Gemma. Gemma's sort of making her side videos.

Lizzie Logan (20:53)

Gemma's making her side videos, and she also does, like, commentary on Bri and Daniel's videos. And she's like, do you guys not notice in the background of your videos, there's people in black suits? Like, you're being followed. Yeah. And they're like, oh, shit. Like, you're right. So, like, there's, like, things in the background of their videos that they hadn't even noticed. So there's these people called the Watchers, who've, like, been following them.

Dana Schwartz (21:17)

M. Night Shyamalan produced the Watchers. Maybe a reference that I guess no one understands because no one saw that movie.

Lizzie Logan (21:23)

His daughter.

Dana Schwartz (21:24)

His daughter directed a movie.

Lizzie Logan (21:25)

The one who played the pop star in Trap.

Dana Schwartz (21:27)

The other one.

Lizzie Logan (21:27)

The other one. Okay. All of these YouTubers do have the same editing style, but also they're all fans of each other. Why wouldn't they edit their videos the same way? And they're all YouTube's a year old. There's kind of only one editing style, and they're all the same age. Maybe it's still real.

Dana Schwartz (21:45)

I will honestly say that doesn't convince me because all editing style is imitations of things that people see. Like, Emma Chamberlain had her own editing.

Lizzie Logan (21:53)

Style, and then everyone just copied her.

Dana Schwartz (21:54)

Everyone just copied that. If you go on TikTok and just scroll, like, everyone's videos have the same cadence like that. That doesn't raise my flags.

Lizzie Logan (22:03)

Absolutely.

Dana Schwartz (22:04)

That's an idiom, right? Raise my hackles.

Lizzie Logan (22:07)

Yeah, but that's not what that means. Like, raise my hackles means, like, get me annoyed.

Dana Schwartz (22:11)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (22:11)

The videos start to have, like, a little tag on the end that's like, explore the brainiverse. And, like, go to LG.com and they're. The people involved in this are like, okay, we're gonna be on the forum at such and such a time so that like anyone who knows about the order can like talk to us on these like online forums and stuff and like, give us information, help us solve like these clues and these puzzles and stuff. And then this guy Jonas starts posting videos and he's like, hey, like, I've just been really inspired by Bri and Daniel and also my, he's like 20 or 19 or something. He's like, my parents died in this like crazy sailboat accident a year ago. So I'm kind of like a rich orphan with a big house. Do you guys want to come move in?

Dana Schwartz (22:58)

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Lizzie Logan (23:04)

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Lizzie Logan (27:24)

So slightly removing myself from the narrative just to give a little bit More context in 2025 Me Lizzie hi, I am watching all of these videos in order in a Handy Dandy playlist. Yeah, in 2006, part of the experience of watching these videos would be like hunting for the new channels and figuring out which ones were going to be relevant and which ones were just fans making up their own stuff.

Dana Schwartz (27:55)

Yeah, because I'm sure random people were just making their own response videos. Yes.

Lizzie Logan (28:00)

Because also the YouTube interface and algorithm were different. That it was very easy to get your own video to be, like, recommended as the next video to whatever thing you were commenting on.

Dana Schwartz (28:13)

That also, I think, kind of articulates what I found a little unsettling hearing this lonely girl thing where it was, to me, the awareness that monoculture doesn't exist, where I'm like, so someone's just making this video and it's like, quote unquote, real. Like, I have to watch it real. Not in that it's real or fake, but that it's legitimate in some way. But that's the thing about democratized Internet. Nothing is inherently more or less legitimate. And so that's, I think, what I found unsettling where I'm just like, wait, there's just like a random YouTube video that matters in the culture.

Lizzie Logan (28:44)

But I think that was also really fun for people is like, you might not know for the first four videos if Jonas is ever going to interact with Brie.

Dana Schwartz (28:55)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (28:56)

So do you watch his videos? Do you invest in Jonas?

Dana Schwartz (29:00)

And I guess you do in this case because I assume he becomes relevant.

Lizzie Logan (29:04)

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm not gonna mention anybody who doesn't become part of the thing. He's on the play. So, yeah, they have a big fight. Daniel does not trust Jonas and Bree does. So finally, Daniel thinks that there's a tracker in his car. So they leave his car on the side of the road. Bri and Daniel are basically homeless. They're on foot. They're, like, squatting in a warehouse. And Bree's like, screw this, I'm going to live with Jonas. And she's, like, so depressed, and she just won't come out of her room. And Jonas is like, begging Daniel in videos. He's like. And basically everyone's like, jonas is trying to sleep with Brie. But Jonas is like, no, like, Daniel, please come to my house. Like, please come to my house. You're the only one who can cheer Brie up. And so then on Christmas morning, Brie comes out of her room and sees that Daniel arrived overnight and they have a reunion. Daniel and Jonas don't really trust each other. It's like a little bit of a love triangle thing. But, like, whatever. They're all at the house. So, like, at least, like, there's like, that measure of safety. Bri is, like, doing all these things. She's, like, trying to call anyone who ever knew her parents, like, just trying to get information.

Lizzie Logan (30:22)

And she remembers that her dad used to, like, teach her codes from Nancy Drew books. They've also been doing all this off camera shit that I didn't really understand with this girl Tachyon, who was, like, teaching them survival skills. I don't know. I think it was happening in the forums, which I couldn't really be bothered to look up. I was just all about the videos, basically. Long complicated thing, codes. Bri, New Year's Day, steals Jonas's car and credit card and takes off. And then Jonas and Daniel have to crack the code to figure out where Bri went.

Dana Schwartz (30:59)

They have to crack a code.

Lizzie Logan (31:00)

They have to do the code to figure out where Bri went. And they find her, and she's talking to her dad, and her dad reveals that he's not actually her dad. So this is. They work for the Order. What the Order does.

Dana Schwartz (31:12)

Her dad is not actually her dad. He works for the Order.

Lizzie Logan (31:15)

Yeah. And her mom's not actually her mom.

Dana Schwartz (31:17)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (31:18)

What the Order does is they find girls at birth who test positive for this trait, this, like, genetic mutation. And they take those girls and put them with, like, Order families so that they can, when they're like 15 or 16, like, harvest their DNA for some experiment or something. And the. But her dad's actually. Or her like, adoptive dad is actually, like, kind of a good guy.

Dana Schwartz (31:49)

He does want to harvest her DNA.

Lizzie Logan (31:51)

Right. Because the injections that he was giving her were a serum that was trying to get rid of the trait so that she wouldn't have to go through with the ceremony.

Dana Schwartz (32:00)

Oh.

Lizzie Logan (32:01)

But then, right in front of, like, as Jonas and Daniel are there, these, like, creepy people come up and there's like a scuffle and they shoot Bree's dad and they kill him.

Dana Schwartz (32:12)

Oh, my God.

Lizzie Logan (32:13)

I know.

Dana Schwartz (32:14)

This is a full YA novel.

Lizzie Logan (32:16)

And then Jonas and Daniel get Brie back, and she's, like, really freaked out because she just found out that her dad's not her dad, but the man that she thought was her dad has been killed. Something very cute does happen at this point, though, which is that Jonas and Daniel become bros. They play a lot of foosball together. I do like that, like, Walbre is just, like, recuperating.

Dana Schwartz (32:35)

Yeah. While she's just dealing with the seeing the shooting of the man she believed to be her lifelong father. Yes.

Lizzie Logan (32:43)

I mean, like, understandably she just, like, needs a lot of alone time.

Dana Schwartz (32:46)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (32:47)

And so they just bro out. But Daniel is drinking very heavily, and one night he goes into town. He goes to the bowling alley to, like, try to hit on some chicks, but he just drink. He just gets blackout drunk. And Jonas gets a phone call. Some girl calling on Daniel's phone being like, hey, like, come get your bro. So they go into town, Bri comes with. They meet up with this girl, and she doesn't say her name. So I guess it's not technically breaking the immersion, because anybody could be at a bowling alley.

Dana Schwartz (33:16)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (33:16)

But the girl is Katherine McPhee.

Dana Schwartz (33:19)

What?

Lizzie Logan (33:20)

Who had just placed fifth on American Idol.

Dana Schwartz (33:23)

Technically, Katherine McPhee can be at a bowling alley.

Lizzie Logan (33:26)

So this is where I will drop the ruse that this could possibly be real. Dana, would you believe this has been a web series? The whole time this has been a web series.

Dana Schwartz (33:37)

Katherine McPhee is on it. And she's not even the lead.

Lizzie Logan (33:41)

She's not even the lead. She's making a one episode guest appearance because they also use her song in this episode.

Dana Schwartz (33:47)

Oh, my God. But no one knew. Or people did know.

Lizzie Logan (33:51)

No. It was, like, two days before. It was like Katherine McPhee to guest star on Lonelygirl 15.

Dana Schwartz (33:56)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (33:57)

But once Katherine McPhee shows up arbitrarily, I've decided that's where I'm like, this can't be real. So, yeah, the show, and it is a show, I think it's aimed at a pretty young audience, and it is fake. So do you have any questions? If not, I will run through very quickly the rest of the plot, and then we can discuss the storytelling, and then I'll tell you how it all came to be.

Dana Schwartz (34:25)

Well, I'm mostly curious, like, people watching this, did they know it was fake at the time?

Lizzie Logan (34:33)

Yes and no. So some people knew, some people guessed from the beginning. So a large part of the intrigue around it was people from the beginning trying to figure out if it was real or fake and what was real or fake.

Dana Schwartz (34:50)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (34:51)

The creators came forward in September and revealed that it was fake.

Dana Schwartz (34:58)

How long? September. How long has it been going on? At this point?

Lizzie Logan (35:02)

Like, three months. Okay, so that is when they leave Brie's bedroom.

Dana Schwartz (35:08)

Okay. So by the time.

Lizzie Logan (35:09)

So that's where it, like, really takes a turn narratively.

Dana Schwartz (35:12)

By the time we're on the run.

Lizzie Logan (35:14)

From the order, that is exactly.

Dana Schwartz (35:15)

When that happens, the creators come forward.

Lizzie Logan (35:17)

Right. Because they're no longer trying to dupe anyone. So that's when it becomes cuckoo. Bananas. Because they're like, okay, if we don't need to trick people anymore, we can make this just more entertaining. Watch. And Catherine McPhee can appear, and Katherine McPhee can appear. But also there are people who I think just, like, miss the memo and are still just, like. You know, if you're whatever, in middle school and you like watching YouTube and you don't read the news, I think there are some people who are still watching who, like, don't know that it's fake, even after it is exposed as fake.

Dana Schwartz (35:51)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (35:52)

I tried to read the comments on videos throughout, and it's unclear. It's unclear. I don't think anyone, like, truly, truly, truly believed all the way to the end. But I think there are people who were, like, playing along pretty far into it.

Dana Schwartz (36:14)

Okay. They wanted to believe.

Lizzie Logan (36:17)

They wanted to believe.

Lizzie Logan (36:19)

I think for a lot of people, it kind of doesn't matter. And then, I mean, this is a lot of stuff that I think we should talk about later.

Dana Schwartz (36:27)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (36:28)

But I think for a lot of people, the line between real and fake is unfortunately pretty blurry.

Dana Schwartz (36:35)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (36:36)

All right. So basically, I'm just gonna, like, speedrun the rest of it because there's far too much plot.

Dana Schwartz (36:43)

Great.

Lizzie Logan (36:44)

The whole season one of lonelygirl15, because there are multiple seasons and there are spinoffs, and it all comprises. There's over 500 videos.

Dana Schwartz (36:53)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (36:54)

I only watched about 250 videos.

Dana Schwartz (36:57)

Oh, my God, Lizzie.

Lizzie Logan (36:58)

Which is a longer runtime than it's, like, freaking Godfather trilogy.

Lizzie Logan (37:05)

I watched season one.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (37:07)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (37:08)

Which takes place over the course of, like, a year and change.

Lizzie Logan (37:14)

And Brie lets herself get kidnapped by the Order to try to save this girl who's going to be the next, like, sacrifice. She gets brainwashed, then she gets unbrainwashed. Daniel and Jonas meet up with these girls, Sarah and Taylor, who are just, like, fans from Texas. I'm not a big Sarah and Taylor fan. Honestly, I kind of found them annoying. They find out that Jonas's parents were involved with the Order. They might have been part of the Order, but they might have also been trying to fight the Order. So then they, like, meet up with his aunt Alex, who maybe hooks up with Daniel, and then Alex, like, betrays them, but maybe she had no choice. It's very unclear. Clearly, people didn't like Alex. Like, a lot of negative comments about Alex. Then they meet up with the son of a murdered scientist to try to make more serum. There's a lot more love triangles.

Dana Schwartz (38:17)

So where does this end?

Lizzie Logan (38:19)

It ends with a big fight at the Lab and they fail and Brie dies.

Dana Schwartz (38:24)

No. Yes. Wait, at the end of season. No, this is all the seasons.

Lizzie Logan (38:28)

No, this is the end of season one.

Dana Schwartz (38:29)

Brie dies at the end of season one.

Lizzie Logan (38:30)

Brie dies at the end of season one. And then I guess the other seasons are about, like, trying to rescue other girls and kind of Daniel becomes the lead character or Brie. But yeah, Brie dies.

Dana Schwartz (38:40)

Wow.

Lizzie Logan (38:40)

Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (38:41)

I did not. This is all genuinely surprising to me.

Lizzie Logan (38:46)

Yes. So it really took a turn from the original concept. And the first thing I want to say before we get into how it was made is something, you know, shoot me down. Commenterati. I think on a storytelling level, I was really impressed.

Dana Schwartz (39:05)

I'm also genuinely impressed by YouTube is new that they figured out this kind of immersive, slow burn storytelling that got people engaged in the puzzles and the secrets and the backgrounds of videos.

Lizzie Logan (39:19)

Yes. If you're like a sort of jaded, gen alpha Netflix binge watcher and you were to watch these videos now, I think you would find them kind of corny. But, like, the character development is really well paced. The friendships feel earned.

Dana Schwartz (39:37)

Oh.

Lizzie Logan (39:37)

There's a lot of foreshadowing and clues and mysteries that I did not pick up on. Like I. As an adult.

Dana Schwartz (39:43)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (39:44)

Like a number of times Bri just slips in that she used to know this girl named Cassie, and it's in different contexts over different videos so much that I didn't even clock that she kept using the same name. And then finally I was like, oh, she's setting up that, like, this girl named Cassie is gonna be important.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (40:07)

Ah.

Lizzie Logan (40:08)

There's like framed photos in the backgrounds of things that become important like six episodes later.

Dana Schwartz (40:14)

Storytelling.

Lizzie Logan (40:15)

Sometimes the puzzles and stuff will be that, like, if you watch what looks just like a nonsense video made by the cult, it's like the first word of every sentence then makes a different sentence. That is the culture. And I'm like, that's like as good of a puzzle as you know you're gonna get in a two minute video. Yeah, that's like a solid. That's like a solid ass puzzle.

Dana Schwartz (40:37)

It's also solvable. It's like a fun little Easter egg. You can do it.

Lizzie Logan (40:41)

And I really like that it developed out of that. It wasn't clickbait, that it wasn't like, omg, I was in a cult. And then it takes forever to get to the point. Instead it was slow paced, slow burn.

Dana Schwartz (40:57)

Yeah. You get interested in this girl and her relationship with Daniel and then the story takes off. That's actually what I find most interesting, that people organically were just interested in Brie as a person and, like, hey, I'm homeschooled. This is my life. And then the craziness seeps in slowly. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (41:16)

I think, like, I just made a list, like, Pretty Little Liars, Kyle xy, Dollhouse. There were these YA books called Replica that I read a little bit of, like, Dark Angel, Alias, Roswell. It's all teenagers trying to figure out how to operate in an adult world. At one point, they have to, like, sneak into a hospital. And, like, how do you do that?

Dana Schwartz (41:38)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (41:38)

Then they get kicked out because, like, one of the kid who's dressed up as a doctor, like, steals a donut from the nurse's station, announcing how they catch him. I'm like, there's little. You know, this could have been a CW show.

Dana Schwartz (41:53)

It also sounds to me like a very creative. Obviously, it's visual, but I'm like, this is that sort of interesting structure. I'm like, I want to read a novel that's kind of structured like that. That's like a hidden burn cult novel.

Lizzie Logan (42:07)

It unfolds just like. You could have this be diary entries from different people's diaries.

Dana Schwartz (42:12)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (42:12)

Instead of different people talking to the camera.

Dana Schwartz (42:14)

Interesting. I'm inspired. I want to write a new YA novel.

Lizzie Logan (42:18)

You should. Anyone who hasn't read Dana's, you have three YA novels.

Dana Schwartz (42:23)

I do.

Lizzie Logan (42:24)

You have a duology, and then you also have a standalone.

Dana Schwartz (42:26)

Yeah, but the duology is the one I would recommend I read it as an adult.

Lizzie Logan (42:30)

They're excellent.

Dana Schwartz (42:31)

Thank you. Thank you very much, Lizzie.

Lizzie Logan (42:33)

So this is how lonely girl, 15 came to be.

Dana Schwartz (42:35)

Yes. Are there any, like. Are these filmmakers? I mean, we'll get to it, but I want to know who made this and who wrote it.

Lizzie Logan (42:41)

I. Yes. We're going to find out. So a man named Miles Beckett was. See, this is one of those things where, like, people who work in medicine are gonna be screaming in their cars correcting me about when you get the title of doctor. He is a doctor, but he's not a doctor. He has an md, but he's still in his surgery rotation. Like, I don't. I don't know when you get to call yourself a doctor, because I know at some point you graduate from medical school, but you're not a doctor, and then you have to go work at a hospital, and then you do.

Dana Schwartz (43:15)

So he's a junior doctor. Yeah, I guess.

Lizzie Logan (43:18)

I don't know this guy. Miles Beckett. He has an MD and he's in A plastic surgery program at some hospital, but he is not yet a plastic surgeon.

Dana Schwartz (43:29)

Wow. And he had time to do this.

Lizzie Logan (43:31)

Well, he drops out. Okay, okay. He drops out and he moves to Los Angeles and I think he sees like Lazy Sunday on somebody's MySpace.

Dana Schwartz (43:42)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (43:42)

And he sees YouTube and he's like, this YouTube thing is really interesting. And he, he starts seeing like early YouTubers just in their bedrooms talking to the camera at a birthday party. He meets like a friend of a friend of a friend. This guy Mesh Flinders, who is a screenwriter who was homeschooled and lived on a commune and had written, I guess a screenplay or two. He's got this character in his brain who's like a sheltered young girl who disappears and they're like, let's put these two ideas together. And they essentially write out sort of like all the story beats of like the first three months of Lonely Girl 15. And they bring on one other person as a producer because they just want like legal advice. This guy Greg Goodfried, who, who is. I think he's like an entertainment lawyer. He's a lawyer of some kind. And Miles and Greg put together $50,000. So pretty low budget. Low budget through a very well known fundraising system here in LA called Going into Credit card Debt. So they just put it all on credit cards. They don't have any, like backers.

Dana Schwartz (44:55)

Sure.

Lizzie Logan (44:57)

And they put auditions notices up on Craigslist.

Dana Schwartz (45:00)

Classic.

Lizzie Logan (45:01)

Just old school. This is seat of their pants. It is 2005. Yeah. 2006. Young 19 year old actress named Jessica Lee Rose submits herself on Craigslist. She has been on two auditions at this point and she was homeschooled.

Dana Schwartz (45:19)

Look at that.

Lizzie Logan (45:20)

So that helps. And she's from New Zealand, so basically nobody knows her.

Dana Schwartz (45:24)

Wow. But she can do an American accent.

Lizzie Logan (45:26)

Her American accent is flawless. I would say. I would not know. They told the actors that they were auditioning for an indie movie, which isn't quite a lie because the intention was to make some episodes and then sort of like use that almost as a proof of concept to get an indie movie made.

Dana Schwartz (45:47)

The plotting of it sounds like a movie. Yeah, sounds like it becomes sort of like a sci fi horror movie.

Lizzie Logan (45:53)

They also changed the plot. But in any case, once they then extended they cast Jessica, they're like, they fall in love with her immediately. But once they cast her, then they're like, oh, so this is for online. And she's like, okay, cool. This is porn. I do not want to do it. And they have to really talk her down. They're like, no, no, it's legit. She's like, what do you mean you want to film me in a bedroom and put it online?

Lizzie Logan (46:14)

They took down her MySpace because they really want to sell the idea that this is real. And they just get a bunch of stuff from Target and makeover Mesh's bedroom to be Bree's bedroom.

Dana Schwartz (46:28)

Great.

Lizzie Logan (46:28)

So this is truly very low budget.

Dana Schwartz (46:30)

That's his house.

Lizzie Logan (46:31)

No budget. They are very intentional about using, like, growth hacks to go viral. They're, like, replying to every comment. And it works. They gain a lot of subscribers and followers very quickly. They paid for Yousef Abu Talib, who plays Daniel, and for Jessica to quit their jobs. They were both like, waiters so that they wouldn't be, like, spotted out in public because people are immediately trying to, like, hack them. People are really. I mean, it's like, you know, we talk about people being very online. This is 2006. So if you are interested in the goings on on YouTube, you are. You are a computer person.

Dana Schwartz (47:19)

You are a very online person.

Lizzie Logan (47:20)

You are very online now.

Dana Schwartz (47:22)

Everyone is online. But back then, if you were online, you were extremely online.

Lizzie Logan (47:26)

You were OG online.

Dana Schwartz (47:28)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (47:29)

So it is not a stretch to say that these people need zero prompting to be like, I think I'm gonna try to hack lonelygirl15 today. I think that would be a fun afternoon.

Dana Schwartz (47:38)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (47:40)

So everyone's trying to hack them immediately. Everyone's trying to figure it out immediately. There are online forums just, like, debating it and sharing theories. They immediately figure out that, like, like, all of Bree's furniture is, like, from Target. Which, like, again, like, you know, if you're homeschooled, maybe you do buy all your stuff from Target.

Dana Schwartz (47:58)

But again, it is suspicious if it was all, like, purchased from recent Target.

Lizzie Logan (48:01)

Right.

Dana Schwartz (48:02)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (48:03)

A funny side note is that one of the people who's very active in the online forums and one of the last people to accept that Bri might be fake is the YA author, John Green. Really? Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (48:15)

He was online at this time.

Lizzie Logan (48:17)

Oh, yeah. He's like. He's very online because he's very online now.

Dana Schwartz (48:21)

Yeah, he's just OG online.

Lizzie Logan (48:23)

He's always been online.

Dana Schwartz (48:24)

Wow.

Lizzie Logan (48:24)

He, like, started VidCon. Yeah. Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (48:27)

Wow. John Green cameo.

Lizzie Logan (48:29)

Indeed. The plan was to, I think, just sort of make the In Her Bedroom videos gain enough popularity.

Lizzie Logan (48:42)

Stop, and then produce a movie that was gonna be like, on DVD that was like a Blair Witch style documentary of fans of Bree's looking for Brie.

Dana Schwartz (48:55)

Interesting.

Lizzie Logan (48:56)

So that wouldn't even have Brie in it and that like, maybe it would even like go to Sundance or something.

Dana Schwartz (49:01)

I mean, that's an interesting idea.

Lizzie Logan (49:02)

It is very creatively interesting. But they realized that they were getting views like way more than you would get distributing an indie movie.

Dana Schwartz (49:12)

Yes. They're like, let's keep the YouTube channel going because people are watching the YouTube channel.

Lizzie Logan (49:16)

Yeah. And like it's still true. I mean, you know, it's one of those funny things where like, you know, I've posted TikToks or whatever that get like 10 million views and it's like I could never get 10 million people to watch. You know, that's more than any, I think, episode of Succession has ever. You know, like you can't get 10 million people to watch an episode of television. Those two things aren't comparable because 30 seconds and an episode of television are not the same thing. But if your sole purpose is attention. Yeah, stay on YouTube. Don't make a movie. Yeah, yeah. Cheaper also cheaper, easier, quicker. No gatekeepers. They already have the channel. The entire point of YouTube was to make a website that non computer people could use to upload videos. And they are proof that, well, the.

Dana Schwartz (50:06)

Entire point of YouTube was people. So they could see Janet Jackson's boob after the Super Bowl.

Lizzie Logan (50:10)

Indeed.

Dana Schwartz (50:11)

But other than that, it's also this.

Lizzie Logan (50:13)

Yes.

Lizzie Logan (50:17)

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Dana Schwartz (50:19)

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Dana Schwartz (51:18)

Hello.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (51:18)

I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast Smart talks with IBM I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them? Pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive. Yeah. So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We're happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology. It's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (52:35)

When you own your own business, you own every decision. Catch the red eye or take the.

Lizzie Logan (52:39)

6Am Make a new hire or promote internally.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (52:42)

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Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (54:07)

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Lizzie Logan (54:08)

Who wouldn't?

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (54:09)

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Lizzie Logan (54:38)

They realize that they need to, like, sort of expand the character of Bri. So Greg's wife becomes Bri on email.

Dana Schwartz (54:47)

Okay. And you mean, like, if people are emailing in, she'll respond?

Lizzie Logan (54:52)

Yes, she'll respond as Bri. And, you know, they set up the forums and they are doing all of this to keep the world immersive. People have described this as an arg, which is an alternate reality game.

Dana Schwartz (55:08)

Okay. Because there's, like, puzzles and games in it. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (55:10)

An arg, honestly, can be anything as simple as, like, an app that's also a scavenger hunt.

Dana Schwartz (55:16)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (55:16)

Like Slenderman's kind of an ARG. There's a lot of creepypasta ARGs. I'm gonna give a hot take. I think that's a very internety way of putting it. I think lonelygirl15 is ultimately a web series.

Dana Schwartz (55:32)

Yeah. I completely agree.

Lizzie Logan (55:34)

It organically became an ARG because the fans wanted it so bad and the creators gave them that material and gave them the. The puzzles and then would do, like, in universe shout outs to the people who solved the puzzles.

Dana Schwartz (55:53)

But ultimately, like, it's a web series with fan engagement. Yes.

Lizzie Logan (55:58)

Like, it's not really playable.

Dana Schwartz (56:00)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (56:01)

But I do think it's really smart. Like, I do think it has ARG elements, and I do think it is really smart for someone to say, what if we did an arg? But instead of it being about, like, a creepy demon, it's about a hot girl.

Dana Schwartz (56:14)

Like, oh, the thing that people want to watch, which is a attractive young woman. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (56:22)

Sleuths are converging. So this is how they get caught. And it's funny because there isn't really one way they get caught. It's a lot of different corners. When you catch them in one little lie, that's a clue that triggers people to think of another way to catch them in another little lie.

Dana Schwartz (56:39)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (56:39)

And they knew all along that they'd get caught eventually. They kind of wanted to just see how many views they could get before it happened. And that was really their plan. Yeah. And I will also say, once again, people think they are so much smarter than they are because there were so many people being like, you can tell they're using a professional lighting setup. I work in Hollywood. And you can tell they're using klieg lights. And it's like they were using a very powerful desk lamp that was on top of a bookcase.

Dana Schwartz (57:10)

Yeah, they actually weren't. They were using.

Lizzie Logan (57:11)

They were using natural light, which is the most powerful light. You know what I mean? Like, everyone thinks they're so freaking smart on these Internet. Taylor Swift, Raff, you know, Anyways. But here are. Here is the people who were smarter.

Dana Schwartz (57:25)

Yes.

Lizzie Logan (57:25)

Here is the people who were smart enough. Three fans who just met in a chat room.

Dana Schwartz (57:30)

Fine. That's so cute. That's. I love that.

Lizzie Logan (57:32)

Three fans who met in a chat room decided to do, like, a little sting. So they set up a fake MySpace profile from a fan named, like, Steve. And I guess MySpace had, like, zero security at the time. So they embedded in this MySpace profile like an IP tracker, and they sent an email to, quote, unquote, Bri.

Dana Schwartz (57:57)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (57:58)

And they were like, bri, I love you. Be my best friend. Because people are. Other people who are reaching out to Bri, thinking that she's real, are like, I'm lonely, too. Like, I'm. I'm homeschooled, too, and I don't have any friends. Like, because, again, Bri at this point has not left her bedroom.

Dana Schwartz (58:12)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (58:13)

So a lot of people are reaching out, just looking for connection. Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (58:16)

It's the Internet. People are wanting to friend her on MySpace.

Lizzie Logan (58:19)

And it's. So, again, the storytelling is really smart to make her a really relatable, really sympathetic protagonist who at one point, Daniel says in an early video, like, I think she just spends so much time on the Internet because she's lonely. And it's like, yeah, you know who else was watching YouTube in 2006?

Dana Schwartz (58:41)

Lonely People was her handle, lonelygirl15.

Lizzie Logan (58:44)

Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (58:45)

So I think. Yeah, yeah, she was lonely.

Lizzie Logan (58:47)

So anyway, so this. So Steve, quote, unquote, emails Bree and is like, hey, like, do you want to be friends on MySpace? Here's my MySpace. And they track the IP address that clicks on it right before Bri, quote, unquote, Bri responds, yeah, and it pings at caa, which is a talent agency in Hollywood. Now, what's interesting is they take this to mean that, like, Bri is clearly some marketing stunt for, like, an upcoming horror movie because she's being represented by caa.

Dana Schwartz (59:23)

Well, I thought it was that guy's wife.

Lizzie Logan (59:25)

Yeah, it's. She works at caa, so she's just checking email at work.

Dana Schwartz (59:30)

She works at caa. That's the funny. Honestly, that's the best choice. Yeah, she's not repped by caa. She just works there.

Lizzie Logan (59:36)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (59:38)

I mean, I. And I. That's not to say that they don't have Hollywood connections. It's unclear to me if, like, the lonelygirl15 project was ever in any official capacity represented by CAA. But Amanda Goodfried, who portrayed Bri over email, just. She had. She. She worked at CIA, so she was just checking her. She was checking Bree's email at work, and that's why it pinged there.

Dana Schwartz (60:07)

That's amazing.

Lizzie Logan (60:08)

But in any case, that is enough evidence to say, well, whoever is being Bri over email is not a homeschooled girl. It's somebody else.

Dana Schwartz (60:16)

Someone in Hollywood.

Lizzie Logan (60:18)

Someone in Hollywood, California. So they send that tip to a guy at the LA Times. So that is sort of like flag number one. The trademark for lonelygirl15 was filed by a lawyer before the first video was ever uploaded. Also, not a thing Bri would know how to do.

Dana Schwartz (60:35)

Not a thing that teenage girl does.

Lizzie Logan (60:38)

Someone finds the old cached version of Jessica's MySpace page.

Dana Schwartz (60:43)

Yep.

Lizzie Logan (60:44)

So not only have they figured out that Brie's not a real person, they figured out who she actually is.

Dana Schwartz (60:48)

Jessica from New Zealand.

Lizzie Logan (60:51)

So in September, the creators come forward because they've been caught and they're like, well, we can't let them write that we're doing promo for a horror movie that doesn't exist. We. They come forward and they're like, hey, we did this. We're just experimenting with a new art form. There is no master plan. We are not being funded by Sony or whatever. Like, people had all these wild theories about what it actually was, and it.

Dana Schwartz (61:17)

Was the simplest explanation, which was just two guys who are unemployed, wannabe filmmakers messing around.

Lizzie Logan (61:23)

Literally, it was like dudes in their twenties in LA had an idea.

Dana Schwartz (61:28)

Who among us made a web series.

Lizzie Logan (61:31)

Which now is the most commonplace thing on earth, but this is the first time it's ever happened.

Dana Schwartz (61:36)

It's like the first two guys who got together and was like, we could just do this. We could just put it on the Internet. They were the first ones to get together, these filmmakers in la being like, nothing's gonna stop us. We could just make our video.

Lizzie Logan (61:50)

Do you have 200 bucks? We could buy a camera. Target run. We have to go to Best Buy.

Dana Schwartz (61:56)

I'm proud of them. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (61:57)

They just did it anyway. They just did it. You know what?

Dana Schwartz (61:59)

Let them be an inspiration. Every creative out there who's like, gosh, make your art and put it out in the world.

Lizzie Logan (62:05)

Point being.

Dana Schwartz (62:06)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (62:07)

Occam's razor.

Dana Schwartz (62:07)

It's just too.

Lizzie Logan (62:08)

It's just a couple friends.

Dana Schwartz (62:10)

I'm gonna say something crazy. I'm pro. Lonelygirl15. I like this.

Lizzie Logan (62:14)

Literally, I wrote at the end of my outline, I was like, good hoax. No notes.

Dana Schwartz (62:18)

Good hoax. Innovative storytelling. Got attention for their storytelling and filmmaking.

Lizzie Logan (62:23)

Yeah. So they get some blowback from people who are disappointed.

Dana Schwartz (62:29)

Yeah, whatever.

Lizzie Logan (62:30)

But upside is way bigger than the downside because, Again, this is September 2006. YouTube's still really new. They get attention. Triples their views. They get attention from the mainstream news.

Dana Schwartz (62:45)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (62:46)

They're like, on abc, NBC, blah, blah, blah.

Dana Schwartz (62:50)

Yeah. The fact that it was a hoax brought more attention to it than otherwise. Than it otherwise.

Lizzie Logan (62:54)

Because now they can do interviews and stuff. Now Bri can do interviews because, like, before, she wouldn't. She can't. Like, she had gotten offers to go on Tyra Banks, but she's like, I can't go on Tyra Banks and stay in character the whole time. But now she can, as Jessica, do interviews.

Dana Schwartz (63:08)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (63:09)

The channel blows up. They can finally do more interesting things with the plot. They can leave.

Dana Schwartz (63:15)

So this is when.

Lizzie Logan (63:16)

This is when they leave the bedroom. And they can also take sponsors. So they do some very awkward product placement with Icebreakers Sours, which is apparently the first sponsored video ever on YouTube. Wow.

Dana Schwartz (63:28)

This is very Truman Show, I imagine.

Lizzie Logan (63:30)

Very Truman show, where they just get in the car and it's like, do you want an icebreaker, Sours. Oh, my God, it's so sour.

Lizzie Logan (63:36)

They get a contract with Neutrogena that apparently, like, pays for the whole next season. They make money off of this.

Dana Schwartz (63:43)

Wow. They're actually being influencers for good, where they're, like, making creative content. I kind of like it.

Lizzie Logan (63:49)

It does not diminish the enjoyment factor. I don't think plenty of people still really like it and are engaging with it as if it's real. Not in a delusional way, but in like. Like, a lot of the comments are like. You can't tell if it's real and it kind of doesn't matter. Like, a lot of comments in the later videos are like, ugh, Daniel's being so annoying here. Why can't people just listen to each other? Where it's like, that could be about the character or the real person. And it doesn't really matter.

Dana Schwartz (64:25)

I will also say when people love any form of media, any art, even if they know it's fiction enough that people are writing fan fiction or doing cosplay, they engage with those characters like they're real. People have said in a series, let's say a book has gone on for several series, they're like, so and so would never do that. And it's like, well, actually they would because the author wrote them doing that. That, like, you know, Star wars. People are like, oh, Luke Skywalker would never do that. And it's like, well, he's not a real person.

Lizzie Logan (64:56)

I mean, he's real to me, but.

Dana Schwartz (64:57)

Yeah, he's real to Freddie Prinze Jr.

Lizzie Logan (65:01)

I can't even. A lot of the comments also are very funny in that they are like.

Lizzie Logan (65:11)

You know the classic thing of, like, make up an imaginary person to get mad at.

Dana Schwartz (65:14)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (65:15)

A lot of the comments on these post reveal videos are people being like, I can't believe anybody ever thought this was real. Where it's like, I don't. Who is yelling at you?

Dana Schwartz (65:28)

Yeah, why do you care?

Lizzie Logan (65:29)

Who is talking? Who. Who are you mad at? And then other people being like, I know it's fake. Just let me enjoy it. And it's like, who's not letting you enjoy it? Who are you mad at? Who are you talking to?

Dana Schwartz (65:38)

But you know what? The first one, the guys who were like, I can't believe anyone thought this was real. That's them getting to do people's favorite thing on the Internet, which is get to feel smarter than an imaginary person.

Lizzie Logan (65:49)

It's very strange. I will also point out that, like, even when people know, they know that it's fake. It doesn't matter. People sent death threats to the boy who played the other brother on the Summer I Turn Pretty, which is like, never was real.

Dana Schwartz (66:10)

Yeah, people.

Lizzie Logan (66:11)

Because they didn't like. Cause they thought that she should have been with the first.

Dana Schwartz (66:15)

Like, I think people also were like that to the boy who played Joffrey in. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (66:19)

Game of Thrones.

Dana Schwartz (66:20)

Game of Thrones. Thrones. It's like, he's an actor. He's just a little boy. He's not a little boy. He's an adult man. But, like, he's just a person. Joffrey's not.

Lizzie Logan (66:29)

All those people that he raped and murdered are unraped and alive and alive.

Dana Schwartz (66:34)

Crucially alive. Did. Did any of these people go on to have other careers?

Lizzie Logan (66:39)

That is exactly the next thing that we're going to talk about. Jessica went on to have a role on that show, Greek.

Dana Schwartz (66:49)

Oh, yeah. Kathy. I remember Cappy. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (66:54)

That's not who she plays. But she.

Dana Schwartz (66:55)

The boy. She didn't play the boy named Kathy.

Lizzie Logan (66:57)

No, no. And then this is. This is a reference that will maybe resonate with two or three listeners, but for those two or three listeners, it's going to resonate. Do you remember Shawn from the first season of Once Upon a Time?

Dana Schwartz (67:14)

I do.

Lizzie Logan (67:15)

She's married to him.

Lizzie Logan (67:18)

Wow. Yeah. And I think they moved back to New Zealand.

Dana Schwartz (67:21)

Oh, my God.

Lizzie Logan (67:22)

Good for them. And they have kids, and I think they seem very happy. And she remembers lonelygirl15 fondly.

Dana Schwartz (67:28)

Good. That makes me happy. I'm glad she didn't feel exploited. No.

Lizzie Logan (67:32)

I think she was like, yeah, that was cool. And she only did it for the one season, and she's like, good times. I liked being Bri. Great. Youssef, who played Daniel, stayed on the show.

Dana Schwartz (67:42)

Yep.

Lizzie Logan (67:43)

Something else that I thought was very smart in how they made the show and selling the realism of it. And I want to. This is going to sound a little backhanded, but I just. I want to say it because we've talked about Brie being very cute and how they were smart to put a cute girl as the face of this. Daniel is not that cute.

Dana Schwartz (68:06)

He looks like a real person.

Lizzie Logan (68:07)

He looks like a real person that. If you were to show me these two people, I wouldn't immediately say, oh, they come straight from the LA actor community. And then when you meet Jonas, Jonas is quite hot. But I think it really helps sell it that the first two people you meet, you're like, a, I buy that he would have a crush on her and she would maybe not reciprocate.

Dana Schwartz (68:30)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (68:31)

And B, I just believe that they're real people because she. He keeps being like, oh, she's so pretty. She's so pretty. And, like. Like, he's not ugly. I'm not calling him ugly, but it's just, like, you know, you can tell his teeth haven't been straightened. Like, I just. I think it's really smart that. I just think it's really smart casting and really helps sell the reality that these are bored suburbanites, that they don't look like Abercrombie models.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (69:02)

I love it.

Dana Schwartz (69:03)

I think that's great. I think more actors should look like normal people. I love watching a movie or a TV show and the actors have regular faces, and I mean that so genuinely. I think that, like, sounded sarcastic as I said it.

Lizzie Logan (69:15)

Yeah.

Dana Schwartz (69:15)

I like a Coen Brothers movie where, like, background Actors have interesting faces.

Lizzie Logan (69:19)

Absolutely.

Dana Schwartz (69:20)

That's why Adam Driver is so fun to watch. He looks like a person.

Lizzie Logan (69:23)

He does look like a person. All right. Mesh is still doing screenwriting, and he's a social media consultant. I mean, yes, you can look him up on IMDb. He doesn't have anything, but he, you know, he's out there trying. Greg and Miles worked together for a while. They had, like, a digital production company, and then they sold it. Miles now he co founded Flossie.

Dana Schwartz (69:50)

Why does that sound familiar?

Lizzie Logan (69:51)

It's an AI startup for dentists.

Dana Schwartz (69:55)

No, that shouldn't sound familiar.

Lizzie Logan (69:56)

And Dina, I don't know what that means. Why?

Dana Schwartz (70:01)

No, no.

Lizzie Logan (70:02)

I don't know what an AI startup for dentist means. And I. And I. And I don't know what that means, but it's what he does.

Dana Schwartz (70:08)

Is this another hoax? Has he done another hoax?

Lizzie Logan (70:11)

I don't know.

Dana Schwartz (70:12)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (70:12)

I looked at the website, and it was purple and had some stock images of dentists.

Dana Schwartz (70:18)

AI startup for dentists.

Lizzie Logan (70:19)

It's an AI startup for dentists.

Dana Schwartz (70:21)

All right, so it seems like he sort of pivoted away from the creative writing and more towards the techie side.

Lizzie Logan (70:26)

Yeah, yeah. They stuck with. With. They're doing innovation.

Dana Schwartz (70:30)

Okay.

Lizzie Logan (70:30)

Greg, like, really stuck with being sort of a digital pioneer. He worked at UTA for a bit, and now he's head of, like, the d' Amelio's management company.

Dana Schwartz (70:45)

Oh, so he knows how to do YouTube influencers.

Lizzie Logan (70:47)

He knows how to do YouTube and social media influencers. So he's, like, still sort of a power player in online personalities. And he's quite successful.

Dana Schwartz (70:57)

Good for him. I mean, that does seem kind of like the most natural. Unless it's like, oh, they still make indie sci fi movies. Other than that, this feels like the most natural leap. Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (71:07)

Apparently they took meetings with all the studios when lonelygirl15 was popping off. I think they truly were just too ahead of their time. They didn't know, like, you know, Broad City just was like. They just turned what that web series was into a show. High maintenance just turned what that web series was into a show. Studios. I don't know if they failed to pitch it correctly or that studios didn't realize that you could turn a web series into a show, because this feels.

Dana Schwartz (71:35)

Like it would be a great TV show.

Lizzie Logan (71:36)

You could 100% have turned lonelygirl15 into a show, remake it with better writing and a budget, and it would be a show.

Dana Schwartz (71:47)

Start with the girl in her bedroom. Yeah, 100%.

Lizzie Logan (71:50)

100%. There's. I can Think of like some modern day, sort of like parallels, other things we could talk about, but you know, don't have to. Well, what, what are the parallels? So people are still looking for proof that whatever narrative you're selling online isn't real. So at one end you've got like free Britney.

Dana Schwartz (72:09)

Sure.

Lizzie Logan (72:10)

And you've got like, oh, look at the shadows. She's not really on vacation. Blah, blah, blah. There was a movie called Sick House that was released on Snapchat. It was like a horror. The Snapchat horror movie.

Dana Schwartz (72:23)

Yeah.

Lizzie Logan (72:23)

Real shorts is the new, like, everyone in Hollywood's talking about, like, writing for verticals, which is like the new thing. Remember Quibi? Quibi? I think lonelygirl15 is like, better written than all of them.

Dana Schwartz (72:36)

It's the original Quibi.

Lizzie Logan (72:37)

So, Dana, I don't think we would ever make a movie of this hoax, because I think if you want the movie of this hoax, you should just go watch some lonely girl videos.

Dana Schwartz (72:46)

I actually wish they did make like a TV show of it though. Yeah, I think that would have been really entertaining. But I guess it already exists. And you know what? Good hoax. I'm pro this hoax.

Lizzie Logan (72:55)

I am also pro lonelygirl15.

Dana Schwartz (72:57)

Like, it hurt no one. It entertained people.

Lizzie Logan (73:00)

Everybody. Everybody who now has ever, like, genuinely, if you've ever gotten a meeting from a thing that you put on YouTube, you owe 20 cents to lonelygirl15.

Dana Schwartz (73:12)

You know how I got my book agent? This is a true story parody Twitter account indeed.

Lizzie Logan (73:17)

That we discussed on the Earn Malley episode. Go back and listen.

Dana Schwartz (73:19)

Anonymous parody Twitter account. Got me a book agent. So thank you, lonelygirl15.

Lizzie Logan (73:23)

Thank you, lonelygirl15. Dana, besides your anonymous parody Twitter account, where can the people find you?

Dana Schwartz (73:31)

Find me on Instagram and sometimes TikTok Dana Schwartz with three z's at the end. Or you can email us at@hoaxthepodcastmail.com I do read those emails.

Lizzie Logan (73:42)

And you can also find us on Instagram @HoxThePodcast on Instagram. It's not a hoax. That is really our Instagram.

Dana Schwartz (73:53)

As always, please hoax responsibly.

Lizzie Logan (73:55)

Bye.

Lizzie Logan (74:06)

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young with supervising producer Reema El Kayali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (74:35)

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Dana Schwartz (75:06)

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Lizzie Logan (76:38)

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Guest/Other Voices (e.g., Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Rogers, Bowen Yang) (77:46)

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Lizzie Logan (77:47)

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