Napoleon is Dead

Summary

Hoax! – "Napoleon is Dead"

Podcast: Hoax!
Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan
Release Date: March 16, 2026
Episode Theme: The infamous "Napoleon is dead" hoax of 1814, examining one of history’s boldest financial cons, the characters behind it, and how easy it is for people—and entire systems—to fall for manufactured truths.

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into the audacious financial hoax of 1814, when news that Napoleon Bonaparte had died swept through Britain, causing chaos in the London stock market. Co-hosts Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan unpack the story of Lord Cochrane, a real-life naval rogue (and inspiration for literary and film heroes), and how his penchant for trickery and self-importance may have driven him into scandal. The episode humorously yet insightfully examines why people believe things that aren’t true and the mechanisms behind historical scammers and hoaxers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Oceans, War, and the Master and Commander Connection

• Timestamps: 03:16–05:00
  • Dana and Lizzie open with a lighthearted discussion about the film Master and Commander, revealing the real-life inspiration: Thomas Cochrane.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 05:00): “Okay, so his name is Thomas Cochrane. He's not that well known as a figure, even though I feel like if you're like, he's the guy who inspired the author of the books of Master and Commander, you'd be like, well, that seems like he should be maybe more famous.”

2. The Colorful Life & Personality of Lord Cochrane

• Timestamps: 05:00–10:44
  • A vivid character sketch: Privileged and well-connected, but cash-strapped, impulsive, and insubordinate.
  • Cochrane’s “naval Nepo baby” status and how family connections expedited his naval rank.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 08:01): “He’s never going to be poor. But again, they do have to sell their industrial estate. They're downsizing, they're not doing great.”
  • His penchant for rule-breaking—dueling, flippancy, and outsmarting both superiors and enemies.

3. Early Naval Exploits: Pranks, Trickery, and Little Ships with Big Impact

• Timestamps: 12:58–16:40
  • Cochrane’s use of literal false flags and strategic deception:
    • Outracing and capturing the much larger Spanish ship El Gamo by flying an American flag until he was close enough to strike.
    • Outwitting a Spanish frigate with a “plague” ruse and a Danish flag.
    • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 14:10): “He flies an American flag and sails really close, allegedly close enough to see the whites of the Spanish cruise eyes... as soon as he gets really, really close. American flag down, Union Jack up. Joke's on you.”
  • Reputation as “Le Loup de Mer” (the sea wolf) — even Napoleon wanted him stopped.

4. Trickster to Pariah: Cochrane’s Tumultuous Rise and Fall in British Society

• Timestamps: 17:19–23:20
  • Despite exploits, Cochrane rarely wins favor or promotion; openly criticizes superiors and fails to play political games.
  • Transition to politics—he’s a man of the people in image, but still deeply self-interested; “libertarian” before his time.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 22:37): “He kind of has like, libertarian politics... generally just anti-authority populist. Just like, wants his own good things to be recognized and thinks everyone's out to get him.”

5. The London Stock Exchange and the Seeds of Chaos

• Timestamps: 23:31–29:59
  • Introduction to 1814’s volatile, barely regulated financial markets.
  • Explanation of “omnium” — British government securities, bought often on credit.
  • Importance of slow, rumor-based news cycles in a pre-Internet age.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 26:08): “The Internet doesn’t exist... you can’t get information quickly. You can’t just Google something.”

6. The Hoax Unfolds: “Napoleon is Dead!”

• Timestamps: 29:59–38:56
  • In Dover at 1am, a mysterious man in a red uniform—Lt. Col. De Bourgh—arrives, claiming urgent news for the Admiralty.
  • He reports (in writing) that Napoleon was killed by Russian Cossacks and peace is imminent.
  • Word spreads by post-boys, landlords, and eager stockbrokers. By 10am, government stock prices spike.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 38:32): “Crowds are gathered outside the mansion house, waiting for the lord Mayor to appear to make an official announcement... It’s like a good day on Twitter.”

7. The Viral Effect: Pamphlets, Parade, and a Quick Crash

• Timestamps: 37:55–39:32
  • Midday: A decorated carriage of French royalists parades through London, tossing pamphlets, fanning the frenzy.
  • Stock prices soar, then crash again after officials declare it’s a hoax.
  • Market manipulation and public outrage quickly follow.

8. The Investigation: Following the Money and the Costumes

• Timestamps: 40:29–44:46
  • Stock Exchange committee springs into action, seeking:
    • The identity of the supposed Col. De Bourgh,
    • The “French royalists” in the parade,
    • Anyone who made suspicious trades.
  • They find a syndicate: Lord Cochrane, “cool uncle” Cochrane Johnson, and their broker, Richard Butt (“Dick Butt”).
  • Nearly £175,000 (in today’s money) made in a single day—their attempts to buy even more stock failed only due to clerical delays.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 41:43): “His name, P.T. Barnum—what I’m pleased to tell you is Richard Butt. His name is Dick Butt. B-U-T-T. Two t’s. Great.”

9. The Cast of Conspirators

• Timestamps: 42:00–48:27
  • Uncle Cochrane Johnson: Penniless, corrupt, facing debtors’ prison.
  • Broker Dick Butt: The trio’s investment manager.
  • The “French royalists”—found almost immediately—confess, albeit claiming independent action.
  • Col. De Bourgh’s real identity: Charles Random de Berenger, a debt-ridden “adventurer” with Loyalist roots, under local arrest, and a flair for costumes.

10. The Trial: Trickery, Defenses, and Denial

• Timestamps: 51:12–64:54
  • The group’s defense: Circumstantial evidence, claims of coincidence, shaky alibis.
  • Cochrane swears up and down he’s innocent, blames a conspiracy against him, submits “voluntary affidavits” (with no legal penalty for lying).
  • Uniform switches, sightings, and a damning trail of banknotes foil their protests.
  • Defense begins at 10:30pm; verdict at 2am—everyone is convicted.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 68:39): “He just cannot keep his mouth shut in a way that really hurts him.”

11. Punishments, Legacy, and Odd Afterlives

• Timestamps: 66:10–75:44
  • Sentences: 12 months in prison, £1,000 fine, and the pillory (waived for Cochrane due to hero status).
  • Cochrane is stripped of naval rank, expelled from Parliament, but immediately reelected by his constituents. He escapes prison, is rapidly caught.
  • Quote (Dana Schwartz, 67:47): “He just cannot keep his mouth shut in a way that really hurts him.”
  • His story remains officially disputed (historians differ), but the evidence is largely circumstantial and damning.
  • Cochrane’s post-scandal career: Naval hero for Chilean, Brazilian, and Greek independence movements—a statue in South America but perpetual legal feuds in Britain.
  • Later restored and honored after a royal pardon, but never receives his back pay in his lifetime.

12. The Lesser Characters: Where Are They Now?

• Timestamps: 79:51–81:17
  • Cochrane Johnson: Dies a fugitive, heavily in debt.
  • Dick Butt: In and out of prison, always poor.
  • De Berenger: Manages a sports stadium, helps run early “Olympic” festivals, dies with moderate success.

13. Reflections: Belief, Hoaxes, and Legacy

• Timestamps: 81:17–end
  • Parallels to modern times: Viral rumors, financial trickery, and the enduring power of bold, performative lies.
  • Discussion of how historic figures rewrite their own legacies and how the public eventually moves on—or even forgives.
  • Quote (Lizzie Logan, 81:49): “She owned her truth. She got out and she was like, okay, I still do exactly what I've always done, but, like, I'm a little bit chiller now…Literally, no one cares that you did financial crimes.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (14:10, Dana Schwartz): “He flies an American flag and sails really close…as soon as he gets really, really close. American flag down, Union Jack up. Joke’s on you.”
• (19:11, Dana Schwartz): “Napoleon himself personally orders his capture and calls him Le Loup de Mer, which is French for the sea wolf.”
• (38:32, Dana Schwartz): “Crowds are gathered outside the mansion house, waiting for the Lord Mayor to appear to make an official announcement because they're waiting to hear that Napoleon died. It’s like a good day on Twitter.”
• (41:43, Dana Schwartz): “What I’m pleased to tell you is Richard Butt. His name is Dick Butt. B-U-T-T. 2 T’s. Great. Dick Butt.”
• (68:39, Dana Schwartz): “He just cannot keep his mouth shut in a way that really hurts him.”
• (81:49, Lizzie Logan): “She owned her truth. She got out and she was like, okay, I still do exactly what I’ve always done, but, like, I’m a little bit chiller now…”

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:16–05:00: Introduction to Lord Cochrane (naval trickster)
• 12:58–16:40: Cochrane’s early exploits and trickery
• 29:59–38:56: “Napoleon is Dead” hoax July 21, 1814—news, travel, and stock market impact
• 40:29–44:46: Investigation begins; following the money and the disguised Frenchmen
• 51:12–64:54: The trial, defenses, and pressure-cooker courtroom drama
• 66:10–75:44: Sentencing, pillory, public support, later life
• 79:51–81:17: Fates of the co-conspirators
• 81:17-end: Closing reflections, modern parallels, and the shape of legacy

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Tone & Style

The episode sparkles with the hosts’ irreverent, playful banter, blending historical rigor with relatable pop culture references (WandaVision, John Adams, Martha Stewart). The deep dives into character and motive are balanced with recurring jokes about costumes, elaborate scams, and the timeless proclivity for believing what we hope to be true. The episode is both entertaining and a savvy meditation on the intersection of personality, history, and how stories become reality.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode offers not just a tale of one of history’s cheekiest financial schemes, but also explains how easily institutions and the public can be manipulated—with only rumors, costumes, timing, and a flair for narrative. If you want to understand what happens when an impulsive trickster meets a creaky financial system and a credulous society—this is the story for you.

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Final Word:
"Please hoax responsibly." — Lizzie Logan (85:08)

Transcript

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Lizzie Logan]

folks.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a Hoax album.

[Lizzie Logan]

No one ever seems to believe me

[Dana Schwartz]

When I swear I never was deceiving I'm left wondering welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were

[Lizzie Logan]

true and truths the sound like lies.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzy Logan.

[Dana Schwartz]

Welcome to the show. Lizzy, I have to ask, what is your familiarity with the feature film Master and Commander?

[Lizzie Logan]

I believe it's Master and Commander, the Far side of the World.

[Dana Schwartz]

Master Commander Colon, the Far side of the World. And I think you answered my question.

[Lizzie Logan]

Meant to be the first in a planned franchise. It's based on a series of very popular, like, dad novels. Yeah, I came to it late. I think it was a pandemic watch for me because people were talking about it online, and it rips. It's a great movie.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a great movie. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

The Lesser of Two Weevils is a great moment. Oh, I remember why I watched it. It was because, yes, it was a Pandemic watch because WandaVision made everyone really excited about Paul Bettany, who is great in that movie. And so people were like, if you like Paul Bettany in WandaVision, you should check out A Knight's Tale and Master and Commander, both of which rip.

[Dana Schwartz]

And you should. You should check both of those films out.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

If you haven't watched Master Commander, to anyone listening to the show, you absolutely should. But just to contextualize you for this episode, oceans are battlefields. Oceans are now battlefields. That's what's happening right now.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so Napoleonic War, sea warfare.

[Dana Schwartz]

The majority of this episode, like, the main hoax, is gonna take place during the Napoleonic wars in 1814.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. So people wearing the same outfits. I can just keep picturing it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. But before we even get to the hoax, I need to introduce you to a man. Great.

[Lizzie Logan]

Who is he single.

[Dana Schwartz]

Very charming. Actually not dating material, but he is the inspiration for Russell Crowe's character in Master and Commander. Great.

[Lizzie Logan]

Excellent.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, so his name is Thomas Cochrane. He's not that well known as a figure, even though I feel like if you're like, he's the guy who inspired the author of the books of Master and Commander, you'd be like, well, that seems like he should be maybe more famous.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, I mean, I feel like that series is famously, like, very popular among its fans, but not. I mean, it's not like the Jack Ryan series. You know, it's true.

[Dana Schwartz]

And maybe I am also Underestimating how, you know, English listeners might be like, ah, Thomas Cochran. We all know who he is. Maybe I don't think he has translated stateside. He's sort of the Kylie Minogue of.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, you know who it is isn't Kylie Minogue. Australia.

[Dana Schwartz]

Australian.

[Lizzie Logan]

You know who is like, blows British people's minds is Robbie Williams.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, he's a monkey. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, now Americans know him as the guy who made a movie in which he was played by a monkey. But, like, the fact that he's just not famous here. Like, I've had friends, you know, hum his most famous song, I'm calling a news, and I. Yeah, it's, you know that. And they go, no, so you do know that. And I have to explain to them, no, no, he is not famous here at all.

[Dana Schwartz]

I heard that song, I wouldn't before the monkey movie, which I saw and genuinely enjoyed. Did you see it?

[Lizzie Logan]

No, I heard it was good.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's really good. I had no idea who Robbie Williams was. So maybe Thomas Cochran is the.

[Lizzie Logan]

The Robbie Williams of Napoleonic naval captains.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

But actually, what we will discover over the course of talking about him is like, part of the reason he maybe isn't as famous as he should be for his individual exploits is he never really commands, like, whole fleet. He's never like. He's mostly like, I'm kind of doing what Russell Crowe's doing. He has a small squadron. But to get into his backstory, he was born in 1775 in southern Scotland to Lord Cochrane, to, like, a noble family. His dad, in his lifetime, becomes the Earl of Dundonald. His mom is the daughter of a distinguished Scottish family. He has six brothers. There's like a big military legacy on both sides. So his uncle, his paternal uncle is Admiral Sir Alexander Cochrane. You know, his cousin was appointed governor of Newfoundland. Some of his family fought in the. If you can picture Outlander that situation. But on the British side.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, sure. God, Outlander. Another pandemic watch for me. But then I had to stop because it was too violent.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So his family would have been on the loyalist Jacobite side. They are, like, very noble, but on the British side, they're title and history rich, but cash poor in. When he's a young man, his family has to sell their, like, ancestral estate.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are they cash poor in the way that, like, the Bennetts are poor in Pride and Prejudice, where, like, they still have a cook? Yeah, they just don't really have, like an estate. But it's like, okay, you're not poor.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, no, no. He's never going to be poor. But again, they do have to sell their industrial estate. They're downsizing, they're not doing great. His dad, when Thomas Cochran's a young man, his dad gets him a position in the army, but he does not like it. He writes in his autobiography that they make him slick back his hair and make him wear collars up to the neck. He doesn't like that. It's rules that he has to follow in the army and he wants to go join the Navy, which kind of is the beginning of a lifelong habit of him doing what he wants and being a pain in the butt to anyone in a position of authority around him where someone's like, hey, I got you a position in the Army. And you're like, nope, Navy for me. So he goes to sea as a midshipman under his uncle, who again, was an admiral. He's sort of a naval Nepo baby. Yeah. In the sense that there's like a thing that connected people do where they could list you as a member of a crew that you weren't actually on from the time you were a child. So then by the time you actually do get on a boat, you can be at a higher position.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, it's like how Blue Ivy is already a millionaire because they just listed her on a couple of her mom's songs and then they can pay her and then it's a compounding interest.

[Dana Schwartz]

Compounding interest. So that's it. He's been listed as a member of naval crews since he was a child, which is a common practice. But then he gets to be as a midshipman under his uncle. He gets this pretty prestigious post run by this man named Admiral Keith. But even as a young man, he is court martialed for quote, unquote, flippancy.

[Lizzie Logan]

That would be 100% what I get court martialed for.

[Dana Schwartz]

To the ship's first lieutenant, Philip Beaver, supposedly, and this is the story, Beaver was upset that Cochran had reported himself aboard the ship late after shore leave. And he said that I'm only late because I had to change my muddy clothes. And they get in a fight about it, he's court martialed. He's given the chance to apologize, but he doesn't. And so from that point on, he's just like on the admiral's bad side.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And this uncle, the admiral, this is a. This is Admiral Keith, who's like a different admiral that he's under. But this is again, what's going to happen with Lord Cochrane, as he comes to be known. He just like, can't leave well enough alone and doesn't know how to make good or play nice or play the game. So people above him are always going to hate him and kind of for good reason sometimes. Like, he is a pain in the

[Lizzie Logan]

butt, especially in the military where following orders is like pretty crucial and it's pretty consistent.

[Dana Schwartz]

Superiors don't like him, subordinates don't really like him, colleagues don't really like him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Is he, why doesn't he get fired? Is he like, good at being a midshipman?

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, well, we're gonna get to that. Okay, great. I mean, part of it is like, he's a well connected family. He is good and like flippancy. You'll get court martialed, but you're not going to get fired for being flippant.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Although he does, as a young man, he gets in a duel with a French royalist officer. And again, French Royalists are our allies at this point, if you're British, because Napoleon is not royalist. So he's at a costume party and he's dressed. His costume is a common British sailor and he isn't let into the party because he's not dressed fancy enough. And then this French person starts treating him like he's an ordinary sailor, which he is dressed as for the costume party. And then he challenges him to a duel and the other guy gets injured and he's fine, there are no fatalities. But again, you're like, if you're dressed as a common person and then they treat you as a common person, you can't get mad at that, you can't duel.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, he explained that it was his costume. He was doing it to be funny and make fun of the poor.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was doing it to make fun of the poor. Maybe it's a great excuse, but this is just this guy's character and this is just what he's like his entire life. But he is, like you said, really good at his job. He captures this French ship kind of against all odds, brings it back through enemy territory, even through a huge storm. And it's so impressive that he gets promoted to be commander of the HMS Speedy. Which is like, you get promoted, you have your own ship. The thing is, it's a very small ship with only a handful of small guns. And so it kind of feels like it's a little bit of a punishment to get him out of the way. Like, you are really good, but you're a pain in our butt. So like, here's your promotion. But now, like, go over there. Yeah, but like Jokes on them. This turns out to be the start of a legendary run for him.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm really intrigued by this story. And I. I'm like, when is it gonna be a hoax?

[Dana Schwartz]

We just need to meet this man. We're gonna. And I. We have.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm not saying I'm impatient. I'm like, this is crazy, because I'm already so intrigued, and we haven't even gotten to the hoax part yet.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the good news is there's gonna be a few mini hoaxes along the way.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, I love a mini hoax.

[Dana Schwartz]

So the thing about the HMS Speedy, and maybe you can tell from her name, she's small. Well, she's Speedy. Yeah. She can, like, slip in and out undetected. Arya Stark, he literally, like, a few weeks into his job, he captures a ton of French privateers, so his bosses can't even be mad at him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He has this classic move of, like, literal false flags, where. So there's this big. One of his, like, most famous exploits is there's this big Spanish ship called El Gamo. And he. Cochrane, is outnumbered 6 to 1, and they have a huge ship with, like, a ton more guns and weapons. And he's such a big threat that it's pretty likely that Spain just, like, deployed this big ship just to get rid of him because he's such a pest. He flies an American flag and sails really close, allegedly close enough to see the whites of the Spanish cruise eyes. And Spain isn't going to, you know, fire on an American ship because they're allies with America at this point, or at least neutral. They're not going to, like. And so as soon as he gets really, really close. American flag down, Union Jack up. Joke's on you. And then they're so close that this big ship keeps firing over them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, that's so funny.

[Dana Schwartz]

If that, like, makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then anytime that they tried to board him, he would, like, pull away and fire on them. And then he boarded them and kind of through, like, strategy and trickery, like, the way to manage this, he, like, prioritized pulling down the Spanish flag. So then the other people on the ship, the Spanish people on the ship, thought that, like, oh, our officers have already given up, and they got demoralized and he won this massive ship, which is just like, wow, you had a tiny little ship, and through trickery and strategy, you got this big Spanish warship.

[Lizzie Logan]

Amazing.

[Dana Schwartz]

Great job. But again, other people also do the trickery thing. And he'll do, you know, a lot of, like, trickery to get what he wants, allegedly. He has, like, a. I'm imagining, like, a children's costume, like, chest of. Yeah, but for him, it's like flags of other countries.

[Lizzie Logan]

I kind of. I mean, I guess, like, the nobility of war. But, like, why don't people. Why doesn't everybody just do that all the time?

[Dana Schwartz]

He. He has the MO of just like, I am going to win if I can.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's almost taken at one point by the Spanish frigate that they was disguised as a merchant ship. He's like, oh, no, I'm going to get taken. What do I do? He flies a Danish flag, and he brings a Danish quartermaster on deck to tell the Spanish ship, like, oh, we're plague ridden. Don't. Come on.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's the plague. Oh, that is smart.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're just Danish people with. With a plague. And it works. And they don't get captured again. He has a legendary run. Takes down 53 enemy ships. one point captured and held hostage by the French. But even this is like, a very, like, noble being held hostage. Like, the French captain will, like, come to him and ask advice, and they'll hang out. Imagine, like, drinking tea together. He's not in, like, a dingy prison cell.

[Lizzie Logan]

No. It's like, honor among sailors.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And he is released in a prison exchange and, you know, honorably acquitted for the capture of the Speedy. Everyone's really, really impressed that he had this run on a really small ship. He's a character. He writes an autobiography. People are already writing about his adventures. Frederick Marryat, I'm sure he's a famous author that I am mispronouncing, but. But he writes, like, a famous fictionalized version of these exploits. He inspires Jack Aubrey and Horatio Hornblower.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know either of those.

[Dana Schwartz]

Jack Aubrey is Russell Crowe in Master Commander.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, that's the character name.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. Horatio Hornblower, I'm sure, is famous. If you're a British naval reader.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's another fictional character.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, great.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he's a character. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's sort of a Davy Crockett type.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. But after this sort of, like, prisoner exchange, he was captured, he lost his ship, but everyone's like, fine about it. He doesn't immediately get promoted and does not get a new ship, and he becomes resentful, and he starts openly criticizing the Lord Admiral St. Vincent, which is not a thing that you should do if you want to get a promotion.

[Lizzie Logan]

No. But men be doing it anyway.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And then in 1803, the Napoleonic wars heat up Again, he's sent on board this ship called the HMS Arab. That's a bad ship. Punished. He, he sees it as punishment. He's patrolling northern Europe and he calls it naval exile in a tub. Luckily for him, The Lord Admiral St. Vincent is replaced by a guy named Melville who does not hate him quite as much. And at this point he gets a bigger ship, gets in the HMS palace, which is a top of the line frigate, a lot more trickery, which is very fun. So this is like another of our mini hoaxes that he'll do. At one point, he'll be outnumbered by three French ships and his boat is just manned by a skeleton crew at this point. And so he's like, oh, no. If they know that there's like so few of us on board, they'll take us immediately and we'll lose. So how do we trick them into thinking there's a bunch of us on board?

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm picturing the, the party scene in Home Alone where he has standees to create the silhouette that there's a lot of people at his house.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he gets Michael Jordan cardboard cutout. No, I mean it is really clever. He rigs the sails with rope. Yarn. So he rigs all the sails of his ship with yarn and figures it out in such a way that he can cut the yarn and all the sails come down at once. So it's like, whoa. They had all those men to release all those sails at once. The other ship runs off and he attacks and the ship runs aground. The Friendship runs aground in a panic. And then the other ships ground themselves rather than fight him. He just has like a ton of victories like this.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's like a guy with a lot of good ideas.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. He's a war hero. Napoleon himself personally orders his capture and calls him Le Loup de Mer, which is French for the sea wolf.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's a cool nickname.

[Dana Schwartz]

Can you imagine Napoleon giving you that nickname?

[Lizzie Logan]

I know, it also is really close to that Shakira song, she Wolf.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's a sea wolf.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's a seawolf.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Yep. Okay. His sort of most famous battle trickery exploits at the end of his naval career comes at this thing called the Battle of Basque Roads. And he's in charge. It's like a very. I don't want to get into the military logistics of it, but it just imagine it's like a very important protected mouth of a river and they have to prevent the French from escaping to the Atlantic.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they're trying to keep them in the river.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, they're just trying to stop them from, like, getting out. And their strategy is fire ships, which is like lighting ships on fire as part of your strategy on purpose. And he's like, I'll do you and better. Exploding ships.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, great.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he hates the Admiral that he's fighting under. But that's classic Cochrane. But he's like, all right, I'll still do a great job. He lights the ship that he's going to explode on purpose. They're sailing away in their, like, dinghy getaway. He realizes that his dog was left on board, so he sails, they row back, he runs in, he gets his dog, they go out. Dog is totally safe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Nightmare is leaving Matilda behind.

[Dana Schwartz]

I know, but they rode back, they got the dog. Okay, great. And the ship blew up and it was exciting. And the French were like, whoa, why would anyone do that? That was nuts. But what happens is it's not like a cohesive British victory after that. Basically, Cochrane gets very mad that the Admiral Gambier didn't like, sweep in and finish the job. And so he publicly, after all of this, is like, yeah, this would have been great if the Admiral had known what he was fricking doing.

[Lizzie Logan]

And the embarrassing for the Admiral.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the Admiral gets so angry that he requests that he himself get court martialed to clear his name.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yeah, I get that. He's like, I didn't do anything under oath. I will answer all the questions.

[Dana Schwartz]

But from this point on, you know, Gambier has a bunch of aristocratic friends. People think of Cochrane as impudent, which he is. And he says, this whole thing has put a sour taste in my mouth. I don't wanna do any more naval postings. I'm just gonna get into politics.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Yeah, Classic.

[Dana Schwartz]

But also, coincidentally, at this time, the spoil system was being adjusted.

[Lizzie Logan]

Maybe I don't know what that is.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's where if you are a Lord Cochrane, captain of a ship, and you capture a Spanish pirate ship.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, like the spoils of war.

[Dana Schwartz]

The spoils of war. There's like rules about, like, okay, I'm the captain of the. You get. I'm going to say 30% of all the booty. 30% is the crew, you know, your crews. And like the last. Whatever, 70% goes to the Admiral or England or whatever. And at this point, it was being shifted so that, like, the captain got less and, like, the crew got more.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh. So he's like, good time for me to leave being a captain.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And he also publicly was, like, really against that, like, coincidence. He becomes a politician In Parliament, being a real, like, man for the people. Even though, again with the spoil system, he was like, man for me. He kind of has like, libertarian politics.

[Lizzie Logan]

I would say that makes a lot of sense because he doesn't like being beholden to anybody.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And that's very, like, I know that's anachronistic to say, but he's generally just anti authority populist. Just like, wants his own good things to be recognized and thinks everyone's out to get him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, classic.

[Dana Schwartz]

And even though, even when he's a Member of Parliament, he can't get anything done because nobody likes him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Even people that he should ally with, he doesn't.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Because he's such a jerk.

[Dana Schwartz]

But his support. He's like a war hero and his people like him. But again, he's just. He's kind of an asshole. Yeah. So that is just kind of the prologue to this episode.

[Lizzie Logan]

Wonderful.

[Dana Schwartz]

We need to just know who Lord Cochrane is. You have his character.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is Lord Cochrane.

[Dana Schwartz]

The Napoleonic War is happening at this point in the story. Lord Cochrane is no longer at sea. He's a member of Parliament.

[Lizzie Logan]

What year is it?

[Dana Schwartz]

This is 1814.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, you told me that before.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's good to, good to anchor us. And something else to know is that people are trading stocks at this time. There is a London Stock Exchange and what we're focusing on mostly for the point of this podcast episode is government securities, which they call stocks, but are really more like bonds as we know them today. I didn't know the difference between stocks and bonds, and you don't have to.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

What I'm just going to tell you is you're investing in like, I mean, the government. You can buy government things. When good things happen for the British government, it goes up. When bad things happen, I imagine it goes down. The one, what it's called is omnium is the name of like the British government security that we're going to be focused on. But it's especially volatile in this period because financial systems aren't very regulated. The first financial regulations for the stock exchange only came about in like 1812, which again, we're like two years into that. So people don't really know these rules. And you can also buy these government stocks without paying upfront.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So you can kind of buy them on credit and like bet on it. So you're like, okay, yeah, well, I'll will probably make a profit in a month and then I will just get the profit and not get the, you know, capital.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it's just like, really volatile because you don't need to put that money up front. So people can just, like, bet a lot. People go into debt a lot too.

[Lizzie Logan]

So if. If I'm like, this thing is worth $10 and I don't have $10, but I'll just like, put. I'll just like, say I'm buying it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then in a month when it's worth $15, I'll just get $5, and I never have to have $10.

[Dana Schwartz]

You never had to have $10 in your pocket.

[Lizzie Logan]

But if it goes down debtor's prison for you, well, then somebody be like, where's the $10?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, well, it'll. There's like a due date for, like, when you do have.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

You can just sort of defer. You can defer. What's is that called? Affirm the buy now, pay later, Klarna.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yeah, there's a bunch of them.

[Dana Schwartz]

You can just do that. That's how you're buying it. You're like, I'm buying this government bond for $10.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, Klarna is like, you pay a quarter of it now and then a quarter of it in a week, and then like, it's like spacing it out into little mini payments.

[Dana Schwartz]

I guess this is more like a credit card where I'm buying it. Now I'm buying it for $10. Now I'm like, well, in a month I really Hope it'd be 15 because in a month I owe $10. Okay. But again, if people are just doing that, it's pretty volatile. Yeah. So that's what's happening in the world right now. And the Internet doesn't exist. That's also important.

[Lizzie Logan]

You love to say the Internet doesn't exist to explain how people don't know things. But it's like they had libraries and newspapers and like, other places to get information.

[Dana Schwartz]

But for the context of this story specifically, you can't get information quickly. You can't just Google something.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, yes, but I just. For listeners like pre Internet, we did know how to look things up. It was called going to the library. There was a thing called the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, maybe in this story there was a moment for the Encyclopedia Britannica, but I don't think so.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay,

[Dana Schwartz]

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[Ben Walter]

Every small business owner has that one moment that could have broken them, but remarkably it didn't. Hi, I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business and on season three of the Unshakeables, my co host Kathleen Griffith and I are bringing you more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible. Listen to the Unshakeables wherever you get your Podcasts and learn [e-mail] podcast JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC Copyright 20 and 26 JP Morgan Chase Co.

[Lizzie Logan]

I need a job with a steady paycheck.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice 2]

I need a job that offers health care on day one for me and my kids.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I want a job where I can get certified in technical roles like software

[Dana Schwartz]

engineering all across America. Hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $23 an hour with free skills training programs and apprenticeships to move into higher paying roles. Learn [e-mail]. Okay, so we're in Dover, England, which is the southern.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's cliffs, there's cliffs. I've heard of the Cliffs of Dover.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's right across the channel from France.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

England is fighting Napoleon in France, always. We're hoping to restore the, you know, French royalists, the people who supported the now deceased king and queen. But they're, you know, whatever. But on the morning of February 21, 1814, it's 1am and in Dover, on the streets, this very tired man in a red uniform and a gray coat appears exhausted. He looks like he's been traveling for hours. He bangs on the door of an inn, middle of the night. No one answers the inn because it's one in the morning, but he's banging so much that the owner of the pub next door hears him and is like, hey, what's going on? And they rouse the night porter of the inn and everyone gets together and goes inside and this man in this red uniform says, I've been traveling and I have very, very important news. I can't tell you. It's very important. I need pen and paper to tell the authorities, don't ask any more questions. And also I need a horse and a rider to carry a message to the admiral at Deal, which is like the naval base nearby. And I'm also going to need a carriage and four horses to take me to London as fast as possible. And they're like, great, we'll get on that.

[Lizzie Logan]

Seems like, does he have like money for that?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, you do have to pay for that. Okay. I also thought this because at certain points in the story he's like, bring me refreshments and like they bring him like wine. And I'm like to see you surely have to pay for that and you do.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

At this point it's sort of caused this excitement. So more people are gathering. The inn's like regular landlord and an agent for the newspaper, the traveler are all gathering in I guess like the in lobby being like something's happening here. A lot of newspapers have, like, not spies, reporters, I guess, stationed at Dover because it's right across the Channel from France together.

[Lizzie Logan]

Keep an eye on the. Keep an eye on the French.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. This mysterious man in a red uniform, we find out his name is Lt. Col. Deberg, who's the aide to camp to Lord Carthcart, who's a British officer. And he writes a letter to the post admiral saying he has dispatches of the happiest nature. Bonaparte was overtaken by a party of Cossacks who immediately slayed him and divided his body between them. The white cockade is universal and immediate. Peace is certain. So he's writing this letter. He's being like, I can't tell you what's going on. But he is, you know, writing this letter to the admiral. The landlord is like, one of my personal boys will deliver the letter to the admiral and set off to London straight away. So Colonel De Burgh sets off to London in the carriage. Along the way, while the letter is going to the admiral, ironically, you know, it's kind of a long journey to London, several hours when he stops at an inn at Rochester to eat something. The landlord is the brother of the guy who owned the ship in.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, funny.

[Dana Schwartz]

So, like, the landlords are brothers, which is, like, kind of cute.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Because they have, like, a string of best Westerns.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, truly. And, like, this landlord was always like, I knew you were coming. I knew something was happening because there already was, like, a messenger coming through saying there was news.

[Lizzie Logan]

Ooh.

[Dana Schwartz]

So people are already spreading the word. And De Burgh, sort of off the record, is like, by the way, Napoleon is dead.

[Lizzie Logan]

Does De Burgh explain how he's, like, the one person who knows this?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because, like, I feel like if Napoleon were killed and chopped into pieces by Russian Cossacks. Yeah, in Russia.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, the Russian troops came to Paris to fight.

[Lizzie Logan]

In Paris?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Outside Paris, A lot of people would be talking about that.

[Dana Schwartz]

He has not a story. I mean, he clearly came to Dover all bedraggled. He came on a French ship, and the Friendship didn't want to come too close because he was worried. They were worried that the British would fire on them because they might think they were the enemy. And basically this happened very, very recently. And he's just the first.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He just is like, I just made it. Okay. This just happened. Okay. Someone. I mean, someone has to be the first to say, yeah, no, totally. And he's chatting with these postboys along the way and sort of being like, I'm not supposed to say anything, but Polian is dead and these postboys are, you know, probably running into London to tell the news their newspapers. He tells everyone. His story is like, yeah, when I got here, even I had to walk two miles once I came ashore because the French crew didn't want to get too close to Dover. Like it was a whole thing. He has this big story. As Colonel de Burgh starts getting closer to London, he seems to start getting nervous. Nervous about being seen, which is kind of unusual. He needs to get into a. Like a coach. Like a coach, like a taxi, basically. But he doesn't want to go to a coach stand that's too crowded. So he goes. He asks to go to like a less crowded coach stand and he transfers carriage to coach, like with the doors open so no one can see him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, sneaky.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which is just sort of like an unusual move. He had started this journey at 1am by the time he gets to London, it's about 9am and he tells the driver to bring him to an address in London. And that address just so happens to be the home of Lord Cochrane. Okay, so this is where these stories connect. So we have a lot of witnesses that will emerge later because spoiler alert, there's going to be a court case. But in case you're wondering how we know what address he was delivered to, one. We'll talk to the cab driver later, basically. But also what I think is very funny is there's a bank clerk named Richard Barwick who basically happened to see this like, pretty suspicious man getting into this hack me coach, this taxi from carriage where the horses were like, sweating. Like, he's like, oh, this guy just came and something exciting is happening. And so he is a banker and he wants inside information. And so he follows this guy's carriage to be like, where's this guy going? What's he up to? And he eventually has to turn around because he doesn't want to be late to work at 9am but he did as a witness. We have like a lot of witnesses to basically pin where Colonel deberg was at any time. And one of them was a banker being like, something exciting is happening.

[Lizzie Logan]

He needs those tips.

[Dana Schwartz]

So meanwhile, the boy back in Dover had delivered the letter to the admiral at 3am and the admiral is like, huh, well, that's interesting news. If Napoleon died. But he's not like, sure about it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I feel like you get false tips a lot.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Or you just want confirm. You're not gonna like act on that. So he sends the note along to. With, like, a note of his own being, like, I don't know, the provenance of this to the Secretary of the Admiralty.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which is, I think, why he did the right thing, to be honest.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's what I would do.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. But meanwhile, in London, word is spreading because merchants, dealers, and brokers have all gotten word from, like, post boys and the coaching and landlords and all the gossip. And so by the time the stock market opens at 10am Government bonds, which were pretty much at the same level they were at, you know, the weekend before, begin to jump. So omnium, the government stocks that we had been talking about, what day of

[Lizzie Logan]

the week is it?

[Dana Schwartz]

Friday. Well, no, Monday.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they've just been chilling all week.

[Dana Schwartz]

They've been chilling all weekend. Okay. Omnium, which had been at 26 and a half. And again, I don't know what these

[Lizzie Logan]

mean, like, conceptually or currency.

[Dana Schwartz]

Currency.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But just. The stock was at 26 and a half.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then it rises to 30 and a quarter.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which, you know, it's a boost. But there's no confirmed, you know, official account of the Allied victory and Napoleon dying. So then stock prices begin to trickle back down. But then midday, this carriage, drawn by four horses decorated with laurels, appears in the city. And men inside are wearing the blue uniform of French royalists celebrating. They're riding over London Bridge, they're shouting, and they're scattering, like, pamphlets that say, Vive le Roi and Vive le Bourbon. And they're celebrating because Napoleon's dead. And then omnium jumps back up to 32 and a half.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dana Schwartz]

Crowds are gathered outside the mansion house, waiting for the lord Mayor to appear to make an official announcement because they're waiting to hear that Napoleon died. It's like a good day on Twitter.

[Lizzie Logan]

So much of this reminds me of things going viral. But it's like, until we hear for sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

Until we hear for sure, we don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

But, like, right now, it's on Deuxmoi, but it hasn't been in people yet.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not secure. And then even by the end of the day, the government says, we don't think this is real. This is not confirmed. We think this is an elaborate hoax. And omnium goes back down to 26 and a half. So this is all.

[Lizzie Logan]

So it's exactly where it started.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly where it started. All over the course of just literally one day. And people are really mad. I think people don't like to be taken for fools. No. And they don't like, to get their hopes up. But also the stock market had been manipulated and people have money in there. And that's.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, at least nowadays, like a felony, I think is like stock market manipulation.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's something you're not supposed to do it.

[Lizzie Logan]

I have seen a few seasons of the show Billions.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, I haven't.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's pretty good.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I know that our listeners don't love it when I go on tangents, but I'm gonna do a really quick one, which is that they do an episode of a very serious. Not very serious, but, like, within the context of this show, it's a big move where they do a stock market manipulation over the course of one day. But the company that they're trading is called Ice Juice.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, no.

[Lizzie Logan]

Which is so stupid. So it's Paul Giamatti, very seriously, being like, what's happening with Ice Juice?

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, this isn't me going on a tangent. My husband and I have both declared that we're beginning a rewatch of John Adams. Oh. Have fun. So that's where we are right now,

[Lizzie Logan]

just in our lives, vis a vis Paul Giamatti.

[Dana Schwartz]

Vis a vis Paul Giamatti.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

An iconic person. We love him. But the stock exchange, a committee is formed. Very quickly, the committee of the stock exchange meets and puts a subcommittee together and it pretty immediately spring into action.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

And we're like, we're really upset this happened. Yeah. There's sort of three main things that they're going to be looking for. There's a 250 pound reward for anyone who knows the identity of this Colonel de Bourgh. Because it turns out Colonel De Bourgh is not a real person.

[Lizzie Logan]

No kidding.

[Dana Schwartz]

They're looking for the identity of those French guys who are celebrating in the carriage.

[Lizzie Logan]

Royalists.

[Dana Schwartz]

And they're looking at who made money in the stock market. Like, who bought suspiciously and then sold suspiciously. With really good timing. And with that last thing, they look at who bought and sold the most suspiciously. And it turns out it's a syndicate composed of Cochran Lord Cochrane. Ooh. His uncle Cochrane Johnson, and delightfully, their stockbroker. His name, P.T.

[Lizzie Logan]

barnum.

[Dana Schwartz]

What I'm pleased to tell you is Richard Butt. His name is Dick Butt. B u t t 2t's great. Dick butt.

[Lizzie Logan]

Dick Butt. What a dick butt.

[Dana Schwartz]

So the three of them, Cochran, Johnson, the uncle is.

[Lizzie Logan]

And Johnson and Cochran are not Cock.

[Dana Schwartz]

Johnson and Butt.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, yeah. This is who we're dealing with.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's his uncle, but he's one of those uncles who's only eight years older than him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh yeah. I have nieces who I can drink with.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So he's like a cool uncle. And he's described as a, quote, charmer and a rogue. But to me it kind of seems like more of the rogue part and in bad ways. This uncle was governor of the island of Dominica, but he also like dabbled in the slave trade and then was forced to resign from the army for underhand financial dealings, if you believe it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's in debt for around £16,000. And the only thing that has sort of kept him out of debtors prison is he is a Member of Parliament. But it's like at this point, being a member of Parliament, a lot of seats are notoriously corrupt where you can just bribe people.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he's like, had bought a notoriously corrupt seat.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, you can. Okay. You can just bribe people to get into Parliament.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. To vote for you.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But that's. That's who this uncle is. Okay. Just so you have a context of him. But is like a day trader, their investment advisor. And we know who Lord Cochrane is.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are all three of these men British?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. So they're manipulating their own stock exchange.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I thought this was gonna be like a prank by the French.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, that would be. That would be really fun.

[Lizzie Logan]

But it's not like in their war they would do like financial war. Like how? I don't know. I feel like Russia's always trying to mess with us or something.

[Dana Schwartz]

I know. No, these are just men trying to enrich themselves. Oh. And at this point, I do wanna point out. And I've made a note, I've made a note in the document. There is a difference between a scam and a hoax. Yes. And a scam is for personal financial benefit. Yes. And a lot of this episode is in scam territory. But I do think there's overlap in the Venn diagram.

[Lizzie Logan]

Absolutely.

[Dana Schwartz]

And one of the key pieces of overlap in the Venn diagram is whimsy. Yeah. And there are multiple costumes involved in this. And I think that that costumes brings it squarely over to hoax territory.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, we are like, you know, coming up with fake names and like getting on horses and riding around about it. So I think that is. I think I'll allow it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thank you. I'm like, you'll find out later. But the guy like Colonel Dverg had to like go to a costume shop.

[Lizzie Logan]

And this is our second costume of the episode because Cochrane wore that poor person costume.

[Dana Schwartz]

Poor person costume. And see how well it did him. This conglomerate of the three of them had bought a bunch of government stock just a few days before the hoax. And they didn't pay cash, like we were saying. They sort of bought it on credit and the settlement, which means they would, like, have to pay February 23rd. And this all happened on the 21st.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's like, you gotta make your money before then. So it's like, well, that's really convenient timing. And Cochran hadn't had any government securities as of February 11, but that, you know, like a week and a half before all this, he had, like.

[Lizzie Logan]

He was not a frequent trader of these things. He all of a sudden took an interest in the stock market.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And he, in this one day, made 175. The equivalent today of £175,000. It's like two. At the time, the profit is like £2,500. But again, that's almost like £200,000.

[Lizzie Logan]

A lot of money.

[Dana Schwartz]

But. And even more astonishing, there had been an order that Butt had tried to put through. Mr. Butt had tried to put through to get five times as many bonds, but it hadn't gone through.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, so they were really trying to do something.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah. So pretty much immediately, the committee of the stock exchange is like, okay, so we're gonna keep an eye on these three. Cause that's suspicious.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, maybe. Sorry, we'll probably get to this. But, like, this seems really obvious. And, like, did they think they wouldn't get caught?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, it's not illegal to buy and sell stocks. Right.

[Lizzie Logan]

But insider trading is illegal. And, like, I mean, we will.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not. He didn't get any insider information at this point. It's not like he bought it because he knew Napoleon had died, you know, 10 days earlier.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he will argue I'm getting ahead of ourselves. But I do think it's worth pointing out. Cochran, as he's defending himself, will argue, well, I bought government bonds. I've bought. I've been in the stock market for years. I buy a lot of things. And I told my investor, when you can make a profit of 1%, sell them. And it. So I had them, and then it went up. So we sold them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, like, you can believe. You're like, well, my crime is that a week ago I bought these stocks, and then when it was at a profit, I sold them. Like, you're like, you can't get.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, but they're obviously going to prove that they did.

[Dana Schwartz]

The rumor. Right?

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, this is.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, you Got to prove it, though.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not.

[Lizzie Logan]

So that's. That's. That's the part they think they won't be caught for. He's like, they're not going to know that it was us.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, the. The fake French guys, the fake French Royalists, the committee finds them pretty immediately because they basically just trace the carriage to an inn. And the landlord's like, yeah, I got a letter from this guy, this regular named Sandom, who's like, asked me to arrange a carriage. And this one of his housemates, Mireille, who's the other guy who did this, had been, like, loudly asking around. He had brought. He had brought home a blue French officer coat and had his wife make the white cockades, like, the royalist signals. And he shared a house with, like, other lodgers. And people are like, why are you doing this? And he's like, in order to deceive the speculators. And then he was penniless before, and then right after this, had a bunch of 50, you know, he had, like, 50 pound bills. And he pretty much loudly. He had asked this guy named Mr. Vin, who was not involved, to meet him at a coffee shop. And he's like, hey, I have a great business opportunity you can get in on. And Vin is like, that sounds illegal. I don't want to have anything to do with it. But Vin did know French. And so he wrote out like, viva, Viva le roi, Viva. He's like, I'll do the French phrases for you. Okay, I'll help you translate. Because they don't have Internet. They don't have Google Translate.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, again, there are, like, French English dictionary.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, Dana forgot about books, but they confess almost immediately. Great.

[Lizzie Logan]

But also, they don't seem like the smartest guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, they did not cover their tracks. They will claim that they did this completely independently of the Deborah thing. He was like, we were just trying to increase our own stock market holdings.

[Lizzie Logan]

That doesn't make any sense. But okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, it doesn't. And there are some tenuous links between these people and Cochran Johnson to make it seem like it was. That is not the case. But the courts, like, actually won't try to prove that, because that's. At this point, they're like, we only really need to prove the link between Deborah and Cochrane Johnson. But again, these fake French guys did not do very well. Immediately confessed they found them. And with this £250 ransom, someone comes forward with Colonel Deberg's identity, and it is a guy named Charles Random de Berenger.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's so random.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's so random. De Berenger. Cool name. Yeah. De Berenger is described as. He's 42 years old. He's described as an adventurer, which I just think is kind of like a

[Lizzie Logan]

euphemistic for, like, rich person with no

[Dana Schwartz]

job or poor person with no job.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is a guy with no job.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. His family actually, very interestingly, had lost all of their property because they had settled in America, but they had been Loyalists during the Revolutionary War, so then they came back to England with nothing. He is heavily in debt, and he is, like, confined as, quote, an insolvent debtor under the rules of the King's Bench, which means he's basically under local house arrest.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Like, he can only stay in the neighborhood.

[Lizzie Logan]

And is it the neighborhood in Dover?

[Dana Schwartz]

No, it's London. He's not seen.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's why he didn't want to. That's why he didn't want to be seen. I get it, I get it.

[Dana Schwartz]

I get it. He serves as a volunteer in, like, a corps of sharpshooters under this guy named Lord Yarmouth. He wears a green uniform, which is very important.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But as they're all trying to investigate this Colonel De Burgh situation, they find the red uniform that Colonel De Burgh had been wearing, like, wrapped up, and it had been thrown in the Thames.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, I was about to say you should get rid of it, but he did. I guess it must have washed up. They're not, like, dragging the Thames.

[Dana Schwartz]

A fisherman finding. Okay, but they find it and they're like, oh, this is, you know, something.

[Lizzie Logan]

Does it, like, have his name sewn in? No, but it has proved that it was his.

[Dana Schwartz]

The specific insignia. And again, all of these witnesses on the route saw him. And it's like the innkeepers, like, multiple innkeepers, multiple coachmen, multiple post boys. And all of them in court will point at de Barringer and be like, that's him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And that's him. And this is what he was wearing. It's a lot of witnesses. And also they find him trying to escape the country at Leith. And he has banknotes that specifically can be traced back to Cochran, Cochrane, Johnson and Butt.

[Lizzie Logan]

Even without the Internet.

[Dana Schwartz]

Even without the Internet, they found that

[Lizzie Logan]

they can trace banknotes.

[Dana Schwartz]

They can. Which, actually, I do think tracing banknotes was probably easier back then because I think you had to write them out, I guess.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

[Dana Schwartz]

But suspicious. Yeah. Lizzie Logan, if you had to guess who was guilty in this case, who would you say it is?

[Lizzie Logan]

All of Them. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

You mean the guy who famously hates following rules and does false flags when he's in battle, who hates regulators and the Admiral? You think he would be involved in something tricky.

[Lizzie Logan]

But are you asking me who was found guilty or who I think actually did it?

[Dana Schwartz]

Who do you think actually did it?

[Lizzie Logan]

I think they all did.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, they all did it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Yeah. Correct, Correct.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cochrane. Cochrane, Johnson. But the four, I'm gonna call them, like the actors and the fake de Bourgh guy. Yeah, they were all in on it.

[Dana Schwartz]

They're all in on it. Lord Cochran is not gonna stand for that, okay? He.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's like, my uncle and my friend were in on it, but I wasn't.

[Dana Schwartz]

He writes a preemptive voluntary affidavit trying to clear his name, being like, I am literally completely innocent of this. The fact that I am even being involved in this is evidence of a vast conspiracy against me.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he is doing the move that his superior once did of being like, court martial me.

[Dana Schwartz]

Court martial me.

[Lizzie Logan]

Come at me, bro. I mean, like, I will take a polygraph. It's like when people are always like, well, I'll take a polygraph.

[Dana Schwartz]

The crazy thing is, he's like, I'll take a polygraph writing this voluntary affidavit, but because it's a voluntary affidavit, it's like, there are no legal consequences.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

But that's it. It's like, he's like, I'll take a polygraph, dude. And it's like, no, you're just doing it. You got it off Amazon in your room. This isn't a real polygraph. Like, if you lie under a voluntary affidavit, you're not going to be held in contempt. But his story is that. Look, on the morning of February 21st, I was out to breakfast with some people, and a messenger came to me and said, hey, someone's waiting at your house. My brother is sick on his ship. And this is true. And so I was like, oh, if someone has, like, a message for me,

[Lizzie Logan]

it could be about my brother.

[Dana Schwartz]

About my brother. I want to go back quick. So he raced back. He returns. It's not about his brother. It's de Berenger in a green uniform. And he's familiar with de Berenger. He's like a sharp, you know, in the local.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he's wearing the green uniform that he would normally have, and he's asking for Cochran's help in getting him a position on a ship that he's going to command at some Point. And isn't he under local arrest?

[Lizzie Logan]

How can he get on a ship?

[Dana Schwartz]

I think maybe he's probably. Maybe his.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, he's like, once I paid these debts.

[Dana Schwartz]

Once I pay the debts, like, maybe because I, you know, will you give me this exception? Like, he needs a favor from this military hero, and he came in uniform, according to Cochrane, because he, like, expected that he would go straight on board the ship, okay? And Cochrane is like, okay, well, that's not gonna happen, but you should go meet with, like, your commanding officer. Like, maybe I'll, like, write you a note or just help you. Like, he sends him off to, like, meet with his commanding officer and he's like, well, you shouldn't, like, go out in your full uniform. So here, borrow my black great coat, okay? Because that's another sort of suspicious detail that people call, Will call out later. It's like, so this guy showed up and then left wearing one of Lord Cochrane's coats, okay? Which if he had been wearing a red uniform that then he rolled up and threw in the Thames, he would

[Lizzie Logan]

need a new coat.

[Dana Schwartz]

He would need a new coat to borrow from someone. But Lord Cochrane is arguing, well, it would be weird to wear your green dress uniform just casually out. So here, have my coat, okay? And with regards to the stock market, he says, my stock group has bought and sold government stocks. Before we do, we buy a lot of stocks. We had bought some government stocks and we had instructed our advisor, Mr. Butt, that when it makes 1% profit, automatic sell.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, okay. I mean that.

[Dana Schwartz]

That part.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, the timing of when they bought it is suspicious, but the timing of when they sold it is not suspicious because the stock went up.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, okay, but also, if you think that the. I'm just going to say if you think that the war is over and that Napoleon is dead, you might think that, like, it'll go higher when it's even officially announced, right? Like, it's only going to go up. Selling then, even, like, before it's announced is like, kind of like, we know this is a hoax. We better sell quick. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, yeah, like, if he was under strict orders to sell as soon as it hit 1%, he could just be like, well, yeah, yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And that's what they say.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, okay, but also, like, what if they think. What if they think it's a hoax, but not one that they planned? Also, if it's like, oh, my God, this stock that I happen to own is, like, on a bubble. This rumor is unsubstantiated. There's a 5050 chance that Napoleon's not dead. I better sell and get out while the getting's good. Yeah, not illegal.

[Dana Schwartz]

Not illegal.

[Lizzie Logan]

But they totally planned it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, but not illegal. But not illegal. Look, you can't get mad at me

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[Ben Walter]

Every small business owner has that one moment that could have broken them. But remarkably it didn't. Hi, I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business and on season three of the Unshakeables, my co host Kathleen Griffith and I are bringing you more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible. Listen to the Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts and learn [e-mail] podcast JP Morgan Chase bank and a member FDIC. Copyright 20 and 26 JPMorgan Chase Co.

[Dana Schwartz]

All across America, Amazon offers hourly employees health care that starts on day one. The health care costs $5 a week with $5 doctor visits. Learn more at aboutamazon.com

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[Dana Schwartz]

pretty suspicious that Deburgh, who also happens to be de Berenger, did this thing in Dover and immediately came to Lord Cochrane's house, changed his coat and then left the country with banknotes from. You tried to leave the country. He didn't.

[Lizzie Logan]

Was. Yeah, it's just.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's suspicious. But the thing that would make it not suspicious is if Debourg wasn't de Berenger.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure. Two similar looking guys.

[Dana Schwartz]

Maybe it's just two guys. And de Berenger is going to insist on an alibi defense saying that all of his servants will attest to the fact that he never went to Dover and stayed around town. Even his lawyer will be like before the statement will be like, for the record, I do not think this is the best defense, but this is what my client says because again, all of these people, he met all these people along the way and they all are like that. They identify him in the courtroom with a positive id. Yeah. Which like a bunch of people being like, that's him.

[Lizzie Logan]

You're gonna get convicted.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he had one guy's like, oh yeah. But like his whiskers were different because like sometimes he had whiskers and sometimes he shaved them. But like that's the closest. Someone's like, yeah, I think that's him, except he had shaved. And you're like, no, that's him. He just shaved. But the big thing that Lord Cochrane really holds onto is the fact that de Berenger, when he showed up, even if he was de burgh, who knows what he had been doing in Dover. He was in a green coat when he came to my house.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so is there, like, a version of events where de Berenger does the hoax and is then like, you know, it would be really convenient for me to be on a ship while all of this happens? Why don't I change coats, try to get a job.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then leave town? And Cochrane is none the wiser.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, that's what he will say. He'll be like, I don't know, maybe he changed into a green coat. But again, Lord Cochrane knows this guy. If he had shown up to his house in a red aide de camp uniform, he would have been like, that's weird. Yeah, that's not your uniform. Yeah. So his story, like, relies on the fact that he was not wearing a red aide de camp uniform.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He would have had to change at some point. And he's like, he definitely was in green when I saw him. Sure. And all of his servants. Lord Cochrane makes all of his servants also submit voluntary affidavits, even though he

[Lizzie Logan]

sounds really voluntary when your boss is making you do it.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he wrote them out.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

But the problem is, the prosecution brings a bunch of witnesses that all identify de Beringer in court, and everyone says he was in a red uniform, including the taxicab driver who dropped him off.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he would have had to have his green coat under his red coat and run to the tims and back.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, even in the book I read about, this hoax is logistically, maybe he had changed in the carriage, but he didn't have a suitcase with him that was big enough to hold two uniforms. And it was a very short, bumpy carriage ride that would have been very hard for him to change uniforms. The guy who ran the military surplus uniform store remembers de Barringer coming in and buying the red aide de camp uniform. And when the guy running the store was like, do you want to rent it? You're like, you don't need to buy it. And he's like, nope, I'm buying it. And then he identifies it as the one that was bunched up and thrown into the Thames.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, see, you gotta get a friend to do your shopping for you, when

[Dana Schwartz]

you're planning a hoax, you gotta get a friend. This trial goes on all day, literally. You think like, oh, trials like break for whatever. The judge at this point is aware that it involves a lot of like professional and government people who might not be able to come the next day. So he just does not break.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

The defense doesn't start until 10:30 at night.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, Jesus.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which to be fair, it's one of these situations where you're like, okay, even if they are guilty, the court case was. That is like a really challenging position to be in. Everyone is tired and you're starting your defense at 10:30 at night and like goes until 2 in the morning.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, Yeah, I would be like mistrial or like, you know, you can appeal appeals court.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Cochran's lawyer, even in his like final defense statement is like, okay, look, maybe even Cochran got mixed up and he was so used to seeing his friend Barringer in a green uniform that he liked, forgot and just like misremembered what color the uniform was. And that's not a crime.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, it's not.

[Dana Schwartz]

But lo and behold, he is found guilty.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, they are all found guilty. All of them.

[Dana Schwartz]

All found guilty.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, and the banknotes, Their excuse for like why they had banknotes was he was like, yeah, well, Cochrane Johnson owed de Beringer money because de Barringer had like, worked on his pleasure garden. And then like that money, we're all, you know, we all owe each other money.

[Lizzie Logan]

People venmo each other.

[Dana Schwartz]

People venmo each other. So like, is it crazy that I gave my investment manager money and then he gave it to someone he owed money to and then he gave it to him, like, whatever.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

All right. They're all found guilty. Uh huh. They. He is sentenced Lord Cochrane. I mean, they all are, but like Lord Cochrane, who's. I say they all are, but Cochrane Johnson has fled the country.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh. Another sure sign of innocence is when you flee.

[Dana Schwartz]

He has made it up. He is not.

[Lizzie Logan]

Where did he go?

[Dana Schwartz]

Dominica, where he was previously the governor.

[Lizzie Logan]

Classic place to go.

[Dana Schwartz]

He is going to try to reclaim his property that has been sold to pay off his debts. Unsuccessfully, but he does make it out. Okay, but they are all found guilty. Sentenced to 12 months in prison, a thousand pound fine, and the pillory. Do you know what a pillory is?

[Lizzie Logan]

Is that like the stocks? Yeah, yeah. It's where you are put in like a device that sort of clamps your head and your wrists and then people throw fruit at you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like public Shaming, public shaming.

[Dana Schwartz]

Except Lord Cochrane is a war hero. Yeah. And like a hero of the popular people. For all of his like Parliament. He's one of those like parliamentarians who like talks big talk but never actually got anything done. But people do love him.

[Lizzie Logan]

I also feel like he has the reputation where if I'm a local, I'm like, yeah, I could throw a tomato at this guy and the moment he gets out he's gonna beat my ass. Like I'm not making an enemy of this guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Do not throw a tomato at this guy. You know what I mean?

[Lizzie Logan]

Like he will fucking beat me.

[Dana Schwartz]

The government, I think pretty smartly does away with the pillory. They like waive that. Cause they're like, I think the public will actually respond badly to this. Cause it's very humiliating. And again, he's like a naval hero and a champion of the people. But he is kicked out of the Navy, stripped of his naval ranks, his position, all of his honors. Genuinely sad. Like his like things are torn down from Westminster Abbey. He's kicked out of Parliament, sent to prison for 12 months. He is, I wanted kicked out of Parliament. He is immediately reelected by his constituents.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, incredible.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which is incredible. Even the other people withdraw so that he can run unopposed.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's cause again he'll beat their ass.

[Dana Schwartz]

But Cochran also just another example of himself just getting in his own way. He just cannot keep his mouth shut in a way that really hurts him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Fantastic.

[Dana Schwartz]

At his sentencing, like before they actually sentence him to 12 months in prison, he like is in front of the judge and he's actually like really level headed and even keeled and like, look, my defense lawyer like didn't touch on this. Like they didn't even call my servants to the stand. And like he like lays out his defense in a really level headed, easy way. But the judge is like, sorry, no retrial. Yeah. And he kind of goes nuts. He gives a speech basically accusing everyone of conspiracy to sabotage him. He thinks it's the government and, or the admiralty, all of the servants and witnesses and the judge and his own defense team. So yeah, he just kind of gets really angry again. And you're doing this behavior where you're like, this is the kind of guy who would do this sort of thing. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like it doesn't make you seem more credible when you start making up other crimes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

That supposedly are going on. Like to say I was swindled versus like I was framed.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

You know, like I got roped into this thing. Okay. Yeah. Like Your uncle or whatever convinced you to buy some stock when he knew he was gonna be manipulating it. Like, that is more feasible than like. So your uncle and your financial advisor have been scheming against you. They knew that they would get caught for this crime, and they wanted to bring you down, too.

[Dana Schwartz]

And your defense team also wanted to make sure you'd be convicted.

[Lizzie Logan]

They are willing to go to prison to make sure you also go to prison.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, you know, he had made all these enemies among the Admiralty for flippancy and insubordination. And he's like. And now they take their revenge. Several months into his prison sentence, he gets a contraband rope and escapes from prison. Dude literally climbs down from the window, gets a concussion. Like, it's not like a clean landing, but he is fine. He immediately goes to Parliament to try to get his seat back.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they're like, you know, go back to prison.

[Dana Schwartz]

He gets rearrested immediately.

[Lizzie Logan]

And, like, I kind of admire this guy, honestly, like, what?

[Dana Schwartz]

What chutzpah. He immediately gets re arrested, and they put him in, like, solitary confinement, like a prison cell without windows. But that, again, is like, the insane sort of delusional thinking of him being like, I'll just go to Parliament and they'll let me back in. That, I think, is why he did do this crime.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

And to be very transparent, historians disagree.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so it's not settled.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not fully settled. But I will say there are a lot of holes in his story, that it's a lot of circumstantial evidence. And I could definitely see the argument made that you could say, like, there was a mistrial.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Bad, bad proof.

[Dana Schwartz]

And again, a lot of the evidence is circumstantial, but it's pretty convincing. I would say, like, his story that, like, I got this note, you know, and I, of course, rushed back because it could be my sick brother from breakfast, where it's like, if I'm de Berenger, and I just arrived at the house of this Lord who I'm about to ask a favor from, and he's

[Lizzie Logan]

at breakfast, would I send one of his servants to go bother him?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Would I send a note being, like, urgent, come back now. I expected you to be home. Yeah. Where it's like, that is what you would send if you were, like, in a conspiracy with someone.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And all these people testify. Like, part of his story was when Lord Cochrane is like, well, I didn't want him, like, out and about going to see his, like, supervising officer and his green drill coat. But all these people testify that they're like, no, wearing your green coat is not weird at all.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

The officer testifies, like, no, it would have been totally normal for him to wear his coat. And his landlady is like, no, he comes in wearing his green coat. It's not that weird. And again, his entire Lord Cochrane's entire personality is just, like, thinking the rules don't apply to him and using costumes and trickery to try to make as much profit as he can.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, he'll. He'll fly a false flag.

[Dana Schwartz]

He'll literally fly a false flag and try to make money. And I mean, not to pathologize him, but it's like if you are someone who grew up with a noble family that then had money problems, like, money has been a thing that you're touchy about and want to make as much as you can. Financial regulation, as I mentioned, is really new, and I think he just thought he would get away with it.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, I do think oceans are now battlefields. Like, maybe stock markets are now oceans, where it's like, hey, man, fair, spare, like, shooters. Shoot, I'm going in. I'm gonna do a little get what I can. Who's it hurting? Except, you know, other people, but, yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, who's it hurting? Other fat cats investing in the stock market. Yeah. But, yeah, he will spend the rest of his life saying he's innocent of this and he was wrongfully convicted. Okay, so I should also mention before all of this, like, actually before, like, you know, the day even the fake Napoleon is dead hoax, he had married a teenager.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, fantastic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Who was 20 years younger than he was. And it was one of those situations where it's like, we eloped and she had a baby, but we definitely eloped. And then they'll get married more officially later. What I like is that out of their six kids, one of their daughters is named Lizzie, and they have a son named Arthur.

[Lizzie Logan]

Lizzie and Arthur.

[Dana Schwartz]

Best friend, Lizzie and Arthur and his two other sons. Not Arthur. Arthur's a good boy, but his two other sons will get into debt problems, but not Arthur, which I think is important. And not Lizzie and not Lizzie, to the best of my knowledge, although I didn't look into her financial future. He has this sort of astonishing second act or third act.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I think act one was his naval career. Act two or intermission for a hoax

[Dana Schwartz]

that maybe he didn't do Parliament or he didn't get anything done.

[Lizzie Logan]

Parliament. I keep forgetting.

[Dana Schwartz]

He is, like, great. I got kicked out of the Navy which is the one thing I'm really good at. I need to make money. What am I going to do? South America is like, hey, we're trying to get some independence from Spain and Portugal here. Can we hire you to come and, like, navy for us?

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he's like, great. He becomes, like, a Chilean hero.

[Lizzie Logan]

Amazing.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's like. He fights for the Chilean independence against Spain.

[Lizzie Logan]

Amazing.

[Dana Schwartz]

There are, like, streets in Chile named after him and, like, statues. And then he does it for Brazil against Portugal. And like, before you're like, he did this. Like, he will again spend like, the rest of his life being like, they didn't pay me enough and they still owe me money. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

But still, it's fun. It's great. It's fun. I want him on a boat.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's on a boat. He's fighting for Chile. He's fighting for Brazil. I mean, they win. Yeah. Good for them. He really is like a Chilean and Brazilian hero, I believe. If you're a Brazilian or Chilean listener, I would love to hear the insider's perspective on him. But again, he was a naval commander for the independence, our navies, and then he'll fight for the Greeks against the Ottomans. But by this point, he's really lost his touch and he's like, does a bad job there and is actually, like, fully shown up by his second in command. But Chile and Brazil does a great job. Great. Comes back to England, keeps trying to clear his own name. It doesn't work until King George IV dies and then King William, the next king, is on the throne. And like, for context, if you're trying to anchor this, King William is right before Queen Victoria. It's her uncle. Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the George who died is the son of the Bridgerton George King. I don't know if that. If, like, I'm helping you, like, costumes,

[Lizzie Logan]

because Bridgerton King is also Hamilton King.

[Dana Schwartz]

Is Hamilton King. Hamilton King, one of our sons.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is how Americans understand British history. Sorry, British listeners. This is what we need.

[Dana Schwartz]

But now, you know, with William, more liberal Whigs are in office, and then it literally takes his wife. They keep trying to, like, push it through Parliament and it gets, like, gridlocked and it literally. It being like, his.

[Lizzie Logan]

His. Like.

[Dana Schwartz]

What's it called? Pardon? Pardon. Yeah. It literally takes his wife going to the King and being like, please, you have the power to do this unilaterally. Can you just pardon him? Yeah. Because he's like a war. He's like a celebrated naval hero.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he had already done these amazing things internationally. And you're like, he's one of ours. We want credit for him, we want him back. And so King William pardons him and he gets all of his Navy rank back and he'll kind of spend the rest of his life getting pretty, like, cushy naval jobs and increasingly nice titles and wasting monies on his bad inventions.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, fantastic.

[Dana Schwartz]

So actually during all this court case situation, he was like, I'm actually just working on a lamp. I don't even care about going back to sea. I'm working on a new lamp.

[Lizzie Logan]

I love lamp.

[Dana Schwartz]

He loved lamp. He's like, I'm making a more efficient lamp. It's very important. I'm working on this. That's actually, it's not even about the money that captains don't get on ships anymore. It's not about the spoil system. I need more time to work on my inventions and work on my lamp. But he's working on an oil lamp and, like, they're going to transition to gas lamps, like, immediately, so it doesn't matter. And he also tries to design a new type of steamship that's a huge failure. It doesn't work. And he's terrible at inventions. And apparently he spends £20,000 on inventions with no return. And just for context, remember, the profit allegedly ill gotten in this Napoleon hoax was 2,500.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, goodness.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's like he's just throwing money at his terrible inventions.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, I will say, like, there's something to be said for betting on yourself.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like he, he, he believed in Cochrane,

[Dana Schwartz]

but he does not stop rallying against the people he thinks wronged him. He has, like, a long vendetta against the judge of the case, Lord Ellenborough, and he keeps maintaining that he was framed by the government and the Admiralty or both. He also tries to sue the prosecution witness. His name was Crane, who was the hackney coachman who had driven de Bourgh to Cochran's house. Like, he had testified. Like, yeah, yeah, I picked this guy up in a red uniform and dropped him off at Cochrane's house. And he's like, this blackguard shall not besmirch my name any longer. And he keeps trying to lobby the government for half pay for the time that he was kicked out of the Navy. Like, the back pay that he owed. He, like, keeps fighting for that for the rest of his life. He dies at 85 years old in 1860, and even though his banner and insignia, like, did get restored to the chapel in Westminster Abbey before his funeral, he never got his back Pay that he thought he was owed.

[Lizzie Logan]

No kidding.

[Dana Schwartz]

Um, but in 1878, so 18 years after he dies, in his will, he had granted. He's like, and when I get my back pay, it shall go to my grandson. And in 1878, a grant of £5,000 was made to Lord Cochrane's grandson. By this point, the new Lord Cochrane, which is said to be like the arrears of half pay without interest. So it's like his vindication. Why? Because he's a naval hero.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think they're just like, let's.

[Lizzie Logan]

This guy's been dead for 18 years, but for some reason we still feel like paying him.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, his family kind of kept being pests about it. Okay. They're like, we've been betrayed by our government. All he's done is fight for his country, and this is the pay we get. And, you know, he did fight for the country.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure, sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it is kind of funny that they did. He did get that back pay, even though I think he was guilty.

[Lizzie Logan]

I think so, too.

[Dana Schwartz]

Again, everyone, El. In this story ends up pretty badly. As I mentioned before, Cochrane Johnson flees, tries unsuccessfully to keep his property in Dominica from being sold for his debts, and he dies a fugitive in 1833, but is in and out of prison, heavily in debt, but poor. But de Berenger actually does seem pretty okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. I mean, he does have a flair about him.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, after he served his punishment, he stayed with his, like, sharpshooter unit and then started working as the manager of a sports stadium in Chelsea, teaching shooting. It seems like he was like a

[Lizzie Logan]

pretty good use your skills.

[Dana Schwartz]

He sort of, like, became a gym teacher, you know, but at Cranmore House, the sports stadium that he ran, he held an olympic festival in 1832 to commemorate Queen Victoria's coronation and another in 1838. And what's interesting is the modern Olympics as we know it weren't, you know, created until 1896. So he just sort of created this thing that was like the precursor to the modern Olympics, which, as we are recording, are happening right this very moment.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right this very moment. Figure skating tomorrow.

[Dana Schwartz]

Figure skating tomorrow. He still gets into some financial problems and he dies in 1845. But not terrible.

[Lizzie Logan]

No.

[Dana Schwartz]

As far as these things go.

[Lizzie Logan]

So decent legacy.

[Dana Schwartz]

He started in financial problems, so didn't get way worse.

[Lizzie Logan]

You know who I. This whole episode is giving me such an appreciation for Martha Stewart, because she was like, you know, the target of such misogyny. And then she did do insider trading.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then she did go to prison, and she took it like a woman. And she didn't try to whine and complain and do vendettas. And now everybody loves her.

[Dana Schwartz]

So true. She owned her truth.

[Lizzie Logan]

She owned her truth. She got out and she was like, okay, I still do exactly what I've always done, but, like, I'm a little bit chiller now. And I'm gonna hang out with Snoop Dogg and post thirst traps. And everyone's like, cool, you're forgiven. Literally, no one cares that you did financial crimes.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Lord Cochrane again maintained that he was innocent for the rest of his life. And I think just waited long enough that people are like, oh, that was one day. Like, we don't really care about that anymore. I think he just waited until people didn't care that much. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because probably. I mean, when did Napoleon actually die?

[Dana Schwartz]

1821.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so, like, Napoleon has been for real dead. So who cares about that time? He was fake dead.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was fake dead. Yeah. I also find it kind of a fun twist of fate that, like, thank goodness he was kicked out of the British military. Cause then he helped the Chilean military, the Chilean navy, and the Brazilian Navy. He wouldn't have done that if he was still in the British Navy.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, not at all.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it just goes to show that,

[Lizzie Logan]

like, you can't keep a good man down.

[Dana Schwartz]

But I think you can. I really do think if this guy had, like, played the game a little and, like, didn't badmouth his superiors constantly at every turn, there would be statues of him everywhere.

[Lizzie Logan]

He'd be like, the king of the world.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think we would know his name. I think, like, he would be like, we know, you know, Horatio Nelson.

[Lizzie Logan]

Do we, though? Because I don't know who that is.

[Dana Schwartz]

All right. I'm like. I think there are some, like, admirals that we. We know.

[Lizzie Logan]

I know Matthew Perry. Washington.

[Dana Schwartz]

Admiral Matthew Perry.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is the name of the actor from Friends.

[Dana Schwartz]

And an admiral. Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

But I didn't know that.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's like, he really did get in his own way. He was really cocky. I think he. Cochrane. He was really Cochrane. I really think he just thought he would get away with it. And then I also kind of think he convinced himself he was innocent.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, absolutely. That's the thing about. I mean, it's interesting because this guy obviously was not a total liar. Like, not everything in his life was a hoax, but, like, if you ever confront a compulsive liar with the truth, like, they just double down.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they convince themselves, like, the Fyre fest guy is, like, completely delusional.

[Dana Schwartz]

I really do think like on his grave he would be like, no, I was wrongfully, you know, accused in a conspiracy by the admirals and government who hated me. Yeah, I think in his heart of hearts he believed that even though it's not true, even though he knows Danish is personal opinion is that it's not true.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's also Lizzie Logan's personal opinion.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie where can the good people find you?

[Lizzie Logan]

The good people can find us @hoaxthepodcast on Instagram. We love hearing from you and it's fun to chat. Dana where can people find you?

[Dana Schwartz]

You can email hoaxthepodcastmail.com I will read those emails and get back to you. Sometimes slowly, but sometimes very quickly depending on how busy the rest of my life is. And you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok. Aina Schwartz with three Z's at the end.

[Lizzie Logan]

Listen to Noble Blood Listen to Noble

[Dana Schwartz]

Blood please and pre order the book the Arcane Arts which is out in May. And if you pre order it, that's actually a huge help. Thank you so much for listening.

[Lizzie Logan]

Please Hoax responsibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Bye.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or We're wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors,

[Dana Schwartz]

athletes and everyday people about why we

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make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to [e-mail] podcast or wherever you

[Lizzie Logan]

listen to remind you that 60% of

[Dana Schwartz]

sales on Amazon come from independent sellers. Here's Jess from Planetary Design. We make coffee gear for outdoor adventurers. Amazon helps me reach customers all across the country who are headed to the backcountry shop. Small business on Amazon.

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From the creators of Jury Duty comes a new installment full of hijinks, hilarity and hot sauce. This season, we're taking the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains for an annual company retreat. The catch? Everyone but the new guy is an actor. Oh, yeah, and the company is fake. Season two arrives with bigger laughs, higher stakes, and the same heart that made season one a cultural phenomenon. Watch. Jury Duty presents Company Retreat, streaming On Prime Video March 20.

[Dana Schwartz]

Janice Torres here, and I'm Austin Hankwitz.

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We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

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The big thing about working at tech

[Dana Schwartz]

is that it's ever evolving, ever changing.

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Everyone's a rookie.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is

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to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Dana Schwartz]

Guaranteed Human.