Scratching Fanny of Cock Lane

Summary

Hoax! – "Scratching Fanny of Cock Lane"

Podcast: Hoax!
Episode: Scratching Fanny of Cock Lane
Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan
Date: June 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the infamous "Scratching Fanny of Cock Lane" haunting and the broader question: Why do people believe stories that clearly aren't true? Using this 18th-century ghost hoax as a lens, hosts Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan explore how religious rivalry, social trends, and personal grudges can fuel belief in the supernatural—and how credulity gets weaponized. Along the way, they examine themes of spiritualism, the rise of Methodism, gender and class tension, and the ways in which "fake news" and collective delusions gain traction.

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Main Discussion Points

Setting the Stage: Spiritualism and Rationalism (03:33–06:40)

• The episode sets a playful, irreverent tone with the hosts briefly recalling the "spirit photography" episode and drawing parallels to ghost stories told at summer camp.
• Bridgeton-style family drama meets true crime as the hosts share context for spiritualism in 18th-century England:
  • In 1760s London, belief in ghosts persists, but witch trials have mostly faded (last executed 1682; last tried 1717).
  • Tension grows in the Anglican church between conservative, rationalist factions and the mystical-leaning Methodist movement.
• Dana sets up the core argument: the Cock Lane ghost case helped set the scene for later American spiritualism, like the Fox sisters (04:13).

Notable Quote:
"I had to learn a lot about Methodists, which is not a sentence I really ever thought I would say."
—Dana Schwartz [07:15]

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The Players & The Origin Story (07:15–18:39)

Cast of Characters

• William Kent: Usurer, lost his wife (died in childbirth), then fell in love with her sister, Fanny.
• Fanny: Moved in with William; restricted from marrying him (church law).
• Richard Parsons: Church clerk, landlord on Cock Lane.
• Elizabeth Parsons: His 11-year-old daughter, later the medium.

The Scandal

• Kent and Fanny couldn't marry, so they lived as "Mr. and Mrs. Kent," causing a minor scandal and legal complications.
• After Fanny dies of smallpox while pregnant (02 Feb 1760), her family suspects Kent, partly over inheritance disputes.

Family Drama & Money:

• Kent and Fanny had made wills in each other's favor, angering her siblings.
• The family sues William Kent over the will—fueling suspicion and gossip, despite evidence Fanny died of smallpox.

Notable Quote:
_"Arguing over people's wills is so weird because… it's their death. They can do whatever they want."
—Lizzie Logan [18:29]**

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Emergence of the Haunting (23:05–28:32)

• The ghost story takes off after Richard Parsons and his daughter Elizabeth claim Fanny’s spirit is haunting their Cock Lane home.
• Haunted phenomena include banging, rapping, and sightings of a “woman in white.”
• Parsons involves Methodist-leaning preachers; their interest is both spiritual and political.

Ghostly Séances & Yes/No Questions (26:15–28:32)

• Public séances involve 20+ people, including clergy; communication with the “ghost” is via knocks ("one for yes, two for no, scratching equals upset").
• The ghost implicates William Kent in Fanny's alleged murder by poisoning with "pearl" (an alcoholic beverage).
• The story spreads through newspapers and broadsheets, building a fervor.

Notable Quote:
_"They ask was it your husband who killed you? Yes. They're astonished. She's accusing Kent… Leading questions."
—Dana Schwartz [27:08]**

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Public Reaction: Hysteria vs. Skepticism (28:32–36:17)

• Despite media frenzy, many "rational" contemporaries dismiss the story as nonsense.
  • "Let this short detail suffice to show the tendency of it. The whole of the nonsense would fill a magazine." [28:44]
• Kent protests his innocence, even confronting the supposed ghost directly:
  • "Thou art a lying spirit. Thou art not the ghost of my Fanny. She never would have said such a thing."
    —William Kent (as recounted by Dana) [29:53]
• Parsons profits from crowds: Cock Lane becomes a tourist attraction, people lining up and paying to ask questions of the ghost.

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Investigation & Exposure of the Hoax (36:17–42:21)

The Ghostbusters of 1762 (32:13–35:44)

• A prominent investigation team forms, including Samuel Johnson (the dictionary creator).
  • At a nighttime séance, they observe no activity unless Elizabeth's hands are under the covers.
• After several failed demonstrations and a lack of supernatural evidence (e.g., no rapping on Fanny's coffin), most of London’s intellectuals declare the haunting a fraud.

Notable Quote: _"It is therefore the opinion of the whole assembly that the child has some art of making or counterfeiting particular noise and that there is no agency of any higher cause."
—Samuel Johnson, as summarized by Dana [35:47]**

How the Trick Worked

• Investigation discovers Elizabeth Parsons was using a small piece of wood (6"x4") to make the noises from beneath her covers, under her father's direction. (39:54–40:21)

Notable Moment:
"What an elaborate ruse. It's a very simple plan."
—Lizzie & Dana [40:26]

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The Fallout: Trials and Cultural Impact (44:06–48:05)

• William Kent sues Parsons and accomplices for conspiracy to endanger his life.
  • Parsons, wife, maid Mary Frazier, a pressman, and preacher John Moore are all tried.
• Verdicts:
  • Parsons: 2 years prison and public pillory (though crowds are sympathetic).
  • Mrs. Parsons: 1 year.
  • Mary Frazier: 6 months.
  • Moore and pressman: fines.
  • Elizabeth is not punished due to age.

Notable Quote:
"You shouldn't be able to just accuse people of stuff, be a ghost. You gotta fact check your sources."
—Dana & Lizzie [44:43]

Symbolism and Rivalries: Hoax as Proxy War (47:10–53:52)

• The Cock Lane Ghost becomes cultural shorthand for Anglican–Methodist rivalry and a punchline in satirical art.
  • Hogarth and others include "Scratching Fanny" as a symbol in anti-Methodist cartoons, often with overtly sexual or class overtones.
  • The story is used to criticize folk beliefs and lower-class credulity, reflecting both religious and social fracture lines.

Notable Quotes:

• "This hoax gets a lot of attention on the Internet because it's funny to talk about scratching Fanny of Cock Lane. What's less funny is the subtle distinctions between Methodists and more orthodox Anglicans in the 1760s. But just as important."
  —Dana Schwartz [54:46]

• "Gossip is always about something more."
  —Lizzie Logan [52:53]

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Reflections & Connections (53:52–58:00)

• The hosts draw comparisons to later spiritualist movements like the Fox Sisters in America, noting the evolution of "haunted" trends from specific personal vendettas to vaguer claims of communicating with the dead.
• They connect the episode to themes of folklore vs. rationalism, including pop culture (the show "Outlander") and the persistence of magical thinking, no matter how ostensibly rational the times.

Notable Quote:
"Anything's possible. If I time traveled through rocks, I would be like, magic is real."
—Lizzie Logan [56:35]

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Key Timestamps

• 03:33–06:40 – Context: Spiritual trends and religious tensions in England
• 07:15–18:39 – The scandalous love story, family fallout, and Fanny’s death
• 23:05–28:32 – The first hauntings, Poltergeist phenomena start, Methodists take interest
• 26:15–28:32 – Séances, ghost Q&A, and "evidence" of murder
• 32:13–35:44 – Samuel Johnson leads an official debunking
• 39:54–40:26 – Discovery of Elizabeth’s wooden rapping device
• 44:06–46:33 – Trial and sentencing
• 47:10–53:52 – Satire, symbolism, and the social/religious "proxy war"
• 53:52–58:00 – Reflections on spiritualism and magical thinking in society

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Most Memorable Quotes

• "They ask, was it your husband who killed you? Yes. They're astonished. She's accusing Kent… Leading questions."
  —Dana Schwartz [27:08]

• "Gossip is always about something more."
  —Lizzie Logan [52:53]

• "This hoax gets a lot of attention on the Internet because it's funny to talk about scratching Fanny of Cock Lane… What’s less funny is the subtle distinctions between Methodists and more orthodox Anglicans in the 1760s. But just as important."
  —Dana Schwartz [54:46]

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Tone & Style

• Dana and Lizzie take an irreverent, pop-culture-savvy approach, moving easily between historical context, snarky asides, and genuine reflection on human psychology.
• The story is recounted in a blend of juicy tabloid style and thoughtful social analysis, using humor but giving due gravity to issues of belief, reputation, and social change.

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Conclusion

The Cock Lane haunting—behind its risqué nickname—reveals how hoaxes take root in society: personal vendettas, institutional rivalries, and changing media joined forces to create a lasting paranormal morass. The hosts invite listeners to look beyond "funny ghost stories" and see the persistent, serious forces that drive us to believe—and to question—claims that stretch the bounds of reason.

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Lizzie’s Sign-off:
"Please Hoax responsibly." [59:11]

Transcript

[Lizzie Logan]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Dana Schwartz]

You're listening to Hoax, a production of I heart Podcasts, folks. It's a hoax. How come no one ever seems to believe me when I swear I never was receiving a blast? Wondering. Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were true and truths

[Lizzie Logan]

that sound like lies.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.

[Dana Schwartz]

Welcome to the show, Lizzie. We're doing a ghost story today.

[Lizzie Logan]

Ooh, spooky.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a classic summer spook.

[Lizzie Logan]

A summer spook.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, it's June when this episode's gonna come out.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And why not just do summer Halloween? Summer.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, great.

[Dana Schwartz]

Summer. Halloween in July is like, what I feel like Disney Channel used to do.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm excited. I feel like ghost stories are great for when you're at summer camp. Around the fire.

[Dana Schwartz]

Perfect. I want to bring your memory back to when we did spirit photography, an older episode where we talked about the American tradition, especially during the Civil War, of people taking photographs allegedly with ghosts. Do you recall this episode?

[Lizzie Logan]

I recall it quite well. A peek behind the curtain. I listen to all of our episodes many times because not only do I give feedback on cuts, I then listen to them when they're out because I really like our show.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a good show. It's a good show. We enjoy it. We make a product that we enjoy.

[Lizzie Logan]

I think our show is good.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

So I remember spirit photography. What aspect of it is going to come into play this week?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I think just for context, just think about how in the middle of the 19th century in America in the spiritualism movement was coming into full force. And famously, there were these sisters called the Fox sisters in America doing, like, rapping ghosts. Not rapping like Lin Manuel Miranda, like, rapping at a door like the Raven. And that was in, like, 1848. Gotcha. And that sort of launches the spiritualism movement in the United States. But 100 years earlier, in the 1700s, there's a ghost haunting in England. That sets the scene, I will argue, sets the scene for the American spiritualism movement. Okay, that's my argument.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm sure you're going to convince me. Is this. So we're talking mid 18, like the 1700, like, 1760s. Okay. So if we're in the middle of the 1700s in England, like, what other spooky things Are people believing in, like, what, like when. When was the most recent witch trial?

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay. So when I hear like witch TR in England, I mostly associate that with King James I and 6th James I of England, 6 of Scotland, and that's like 1600s. Okay. The last witch trial in England happens in 1717, and the last execution happened back in 1682.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So I think people believe in witches

[Lizzie Logan]

still and it's maybe not as criminalized.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. By now, by. This story is going to take place in the 1760s. This is a more rational, enlightened. As they're claiming time. I don't think people are. You know, they might believe in magic and certainly people believe in ghosts and spirits. But I also think there's a trendier move towards more rational approaches.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think rationality is very trendy. And actually the divide in the Anglican Church between those people who sort of still believe in spiritual mysticism and those that don't will become a major part of this episode because the people that don't, the more conservative people, will see this sort of spiritualism thing as frankly, a little Catholic.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. This is one of those things where, like, I hope this isn't like offensive to say because I know that people have like died because of this argument, but so many of the squabbles between Protestants and Catholics, as a Jew really are just like, so silly to me where I'm like, you're arguing about different brands of like, the same brands of belief of the same, but of the same, like, thing that if you really get down to it, like, I'm not trying to poo poo people's faith, but like this thing of like, no, this guy talks to God. It's like, what are you talking about?

[Dana Schwartz]

And Lizzy, you will be gratified to know this episode is about an even smaller subset of disagreements between Protestants.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is about the more conservative Anglicans and the Methodist movement that emerges in England about this time. And ghosts. And ghosts. I had to learn a lot about Methodists, which is not a sentence I really ever thought I would say. But let me transport you back to 1756, okay? A man named William Kent, who's a usurer, he's like, loans money to people for his job, marries a woman, she's pregnant, and when she's pregnant, her sister Fanny moves in, okay? The woman dies in childbirth, unfortunately. Very sad and common. Very common. They were only married for 11 months. The poor baby dies just shortly thereafter. But William Kent falls in love with his erstwhile sister in law, Fanny, who Had been living with her.

[Lizzie Logan]

And you know, if you have a type, I guess like, the sisters are probably pretty similar.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And they fall in love. But the problem is, by canon law, you cannot marry a sister and then also her sister.

[Lizzie Logan]

That seems really specific.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I mean, talk to King Henry viii divorcing Catherine of Aragon after she had married his older brother.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, right.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a whole thing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, right.

[Dana Schwartz]

But Fanny, after, you know, after her sister dies, there's no reason for her to stay with her brother in law anymore. She goes back to her family, he goes down to London to, quote, unquote, like, seek advice to see if they could get married. And they keep writing back and forth. And he's like, we can't be together. And she's like, but I'm still in love with you. And wouldn't you know it? And this is a pretty bad example for all women everywhere, her being like, I still want to be with you. It works. And he's like, okay, come down to London. So he sends for her, she comes down to London and they agree that they're gonna. They can't legally get married, but you can't live with someone, it just isn't proper. So they're just like, we're just gonna keep it on the deal. Yeah. And they live together as Mr. And Mrs. Kent, even though they are not married.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

A source that described it, I thought very aptly said it was, quote, no crime to indulge their mutual passion for each other. And it is acknowledged by that they did cohabitate, cohabit together as man and wife. It's no crime to indulge mutual passion.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, from my, you know, heathen perspective, this seems like a pretty victimless crime.

[Dana Schwartz]

They make wills in each other's favor. They basically do everything they can do to make themselves married without being married. So they make wills in each other's favor. And it's worth noting that according to a contemporary source, the young lady would have been a considerable gainer had she survived his fortune being a great deal more. So they make wills in each other's favor. But he's not like a gold digger.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

They try to find a place to live together. The first place doesn't work out because

[Lizzie Logan]

this seems like it would be such a good season of Bridgerton.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, right. But of course, you know, it's like you ask someone to be their mistress. That's not very romantic.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, that's like the most recent season of Bridgerton. Are you caught up on Bridgerton?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, caught up On Bridgerton.

[Lizzie Logan]

But it's like. And then they have to go live together in the country.

[Dana Schwartz]

In the country? Yeah. Okay. Anyway, well, they find a place to live together. It doesn't work out because William Kent is a usurer and he loans money to his landlord and then his landlord does not pay him back and he has to sue his landlord and gets him arrested. So he's like, okay, we need a new place to live.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so while they are struggling to find a new place to live, it's also possible, I want to note, that the landlord found out that they weren't actually married. Oh. And was blackmailing them. We don't have proof of that, but it's a possibility that some people bring up. But they needed a new place to live and that's where they meet the clerk at the church of. Wait for it. St. Sepulchre without Newgate. That's the name of the church.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know why you have to add the without Newgate part. If it doesn't have Newgate, just say St. Sepulchre. But this is England.

[Lizzie Logan]

Maybe it's like describing the location. Like within Newgate is like within the town of Newgate. And then this is just outside of town.

[Dana Schwartz]

Just outside of. Okay. Lizzie Logan being very smart.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, sorry.

[Dana Schwartz]

So the couple meet the clerk and his name is Richard Parsons. And he says, I have a property you can live at. He had basically a house with multiple stories and offered them lodging at his residence on Cock Lane.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, great.

[Dana Schwartz]

And this is the point of the episode where I'd want to be like, oh, it's called Cock Lane. Isn't that funny? It's actually because blah, blah, blah. But it's called Cock Lane because historically this is where the sex workers were. You know, this is why it's called that. There's no like. There's no like, non sexual explanation. But at this point, it is no longer where sex workers are. It is where a clerk at a church would live.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he lives with his wife and two daughters. There's only one daughter that's relevant to the story. Her name is Elizabeth.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she's about such a good name. She's about 10 or 11. She's sometimes known as Betty. But just for the sake of clarity, most sources refer to her as Elizabeth. So we'll say Elizabeth.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great song by Taylor Swift.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So so far things are going great. The Mr. And Mrs. Kent with air quotes are living at this house under, you know, Richard Parsons Kent loans. Parsons, 12 guineas, apparently. Some sources claim that Richard Parsons has a bit of a drinking problem. And that will come up later. But the first ghost encounter will happen while William Kent goes out of town for a wedding. And they ask, for some reason, they don't want his wife, who's pregnant at this time, Fanny, to be alone. And so they have Elizabeth come stay with Fanny. So it's like, you know, this 11 year old girl and the pregnant woman. So she's not alone. William is off in the country. Elizabeth and Fanny are in bed together, like having a slumber party.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cute.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Elizabeth hears knocking, like banging from somewhere spooky. And she's terrified. She shouts, I don't want to be taken away. They ask Mrs. Parsons, Elizabeth's mom, like, hey, we heard banging, by the way. And they were like, well, it's just the cobbler next door.

[Lizzie Logan]

But then they see doing some midnight cobbling.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's it. And then they see the cobbler and they were like, hey, were you cobbling?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he says no.

[Lizzie Logan]

Uh huh.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then a landlord of a nearby pub visits the house and says he saw a white figure on the stairs.

[Lizzie Logan]

Spooky.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then Mr. Parsons says, that's so weird. I also saw a white figure on the stairs.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's 1760. Fanny, who is pregnant, is a few weeks away from giving birth. And so they decide to move out to like a more suitable house for her to have a baby. Raise the bag in.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm rooting for this couple, by the way. Yeah. Their love is pure in my eyes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the hard part, if you are rooting for them. On January 25th, she falls ill. Yeah. They discover she has smallpox. What?

[Lizzie Logan]

Twist.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's 1760, people get smallpox. Her sister lives, quote, unquote, reputably in Pall Mall, which is like a fancy neighborhood, which I take to me.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's another sister.

[Dana Schwartz]

Her sister. Fanny's. Yes, her other sister.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because I was like, her sister died.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, her sister died.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay?

[Dana Schwartz]

She has another sister and she has a few brothers too. Ok. Big family.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Her living sister lives reputably on Pall Mall, which I take to mean is married to someone legitimately and she's told that her sister's sick and where she lives. Fanny had not told her family where she was.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because they were not happy about the fact that she was running away with this man she could not marry.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

But her sister hears where she is and is, quote, overjoyed to hear of her and runs to see her. And she's told that her sister is Doing well, that she's making a turn for the better. But the next day, she makes a turn for the worst, and she dies on February 2, 1760. And so her sister, who had recently reconnected with her, attends the funeral, and there are a few things that she's a little suspicious of.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she died pregnant.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes, she died pregnant. Very sad.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is so sad.

[Dana Schwartz]

And again, the family. Her family, her living siblings were not a fan of William Kent, her husband, because he stole. Even though she was writing to him, being like, I love you, he stole her away to live in sin. So the sister goes to the funeral, and she's surprised that the coffin doesn't have a plate on it. Like, a plate that is like the little engraving that says the name. And she also says something is. I wish that I could have gotten to see the body. By the time I got to the funeral, the coffin was already screwed down.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, is that for cleanliness reasons because smallpox is contagious?

[Dana Schwartz]

It also is probably because you're not. You don't look good when you have. If you die from smallpox.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I wouldn't think so.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the no plate on the coffin is most likely because William Kent would be prosecuted if the true nature of their relationship got out. They were, like, living in sin, committing fraud. So a name on the coffin would be kind of confusing. Like, would you say Fanny Kent or would you not? So the siblings all get very upset at this man who didn't marry their sister, had their sister living in sin,

[Lizzie Logan]

died, locked her up and knocked her up.

[Dana Schwartz]

Knocked her up. Thank you. And now, because they had made their wills out to each other, he gets, as I quote, their sister's fortune to the prejudice of her brothers and sisters, all who lived in perfect harmony until this unhappy affair happened. And what I'm quoting now is a. Basically a gossip rag from 1760, counting this story. But what the siblings say is, we all get along. There's no ill will with the siblings. So why would she leave all of her money to you, who, by the way, she was not even married to?

[Lizzie Logan]

Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

And they're upset because her fortune, she had another brother who died, and so she got some of his estate, some of his inheritance. She got 150 pounds from her dead brother's estate, some land that he had owned. And then Kent, her pseudo husband, gets in a fight with the family about how much she actually stood to inherit, and they're arguing about the equivalent of about £65,000 today. So not. Not a fortune, but also not nothing, right?

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, yeah, I guess I get the feeling of like, you guys weren't even married. That's like family money. That should stay in the family. Yeah, but it's also. I also, like, it's her money. She can leave it to whoever she wants.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, I don't know, arguing over people's wills is so weird because it's like, it's their death. They can do whatever they like people can do whatever they want.

[Dana Schwartz]

But the siblings are not happy because it's like their dead brother's money that's going to this stranger who had their sister living in sin. Yeah. And one of the brothers, John Lines, sues Kent. Okay, so there's some, like, annoying family inheritance stuff going on. And people make a few. The sister makes a few suspicious comments, being like, they said she was getting better and then she just died all of a sudden. Hmm. And to be fair, she was examined before the sister even arrived by a quote worthy clergyman who was like, this is deadly smallpox. She is going to die from this.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. This doesn't sound super suspicious to me. No, it's not a scientist.

[Dana Schwartz]

There are some hurtful feelings.

[Lizzie Logan]

I am a scientist.

[Dana Schwartz]

And there's some messiness in the situation. But.

[Lizzie Logan]

But he doesn't sound like a murderer.

[Dana Schwartz]

He doesn't sound like a murderer. Although, again, not murderer. He remarries in 1761. Classic, you know, I mean, men are

[Lizzie Logan]

men are men, you know, trust no man. But.

[Dana Schwartz]

And his legal troubles continue because yet again, he had lent money to his landlord and his landlord didn't pay him back because when he had been living with Parsons, he had three guineas outstanding from a loan which he had to sue to get back. And he does. But it was like a whole annoying thing, and it was the equivalent of about £800 that they're arguing about that they have to go to court for.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it settled. But it was annoying. Okay, and that's the preamble to when the real haunting starts.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay,

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello? Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pallard]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age, Ferrari fans and

[Stefano Pallard]

super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community. And ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Stefano Pallard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.comferrari

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[Dana Schwartz]

so we had seen a ghost on the stairs. A woman in white. We had heard this rabbit.

[Lizzie Logan]

A woman in white?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

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[Lizzie Logan]

Cause you said a white figure.

[Dana Schwartz]

A white figure who is later described as a woman in.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Parsons starts talking at the pub and telling people that Fanny's ghost is haunting his house. Oh, Fanny, the pregnant woman who died of smallpox is haunting both the house and. And his daughter Elizabeth.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my.

[Dana Schwartz]

Elizabeth is hearing noises again. That same banging that is not the cobbler next door. And it's the ghost of Fanny. And Parsons declares that that ghost they had seen before was actually the ghost of her sister, the first wife of Mr. Kent, who had been reaching out to warn her. So they are like, something is happening here. He reaches out to the assistant preacher at the church he works at, St. Sepulchre. St. Sepulchre, Newgate. And the assistant preacher is named John Moore. And they also bring in this other guy, Thomas Broton. And the reason that I'm naming these preachers even by name and not just being like. And they brought some preachers in to examine is because these are Anglican preachers. Like, they're. They're preachers within the Church of England with Methodist sensibilities. And this is pretty important at the moment.

[Lizzie Logan]

What is a Methodist sensibility?

[Dana Schwartz]

So Methodism is emerging as a movement within the Anglican Church at this minute. And it's basically a more spiritual. In America, we would call it, like, Christian revival, but it's a little less strict and rigid and orthodox than Anglicanism at this time. And it's associated with tales of the supernatural.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, interesting.

[Dana Schwartz]

But the story that Parsons tells that, hey, the wife. The dead wife of this woman is. Is haunting my house. And the public ledger, which is like a broadsheet, begins publishing accounts. People begin gossiping about whether Kent is a murderer.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's so crazy.

[Dana Schwartz]

So the source that I'm gonna sort of describe this seance of how they communicate with the ghost comes from Gentleman's magazine in January of 1762. So apparently, the group of gentlemen who are going to examine and hold a seance come to find Elizabeth in bed. And they say, the spirit being at hand, and they want to ask the spirit several questions. And so we have a group together, and it's declared that it's about 20 people, including two to three clergymen and two black people. They use a different word for black people. The only reason I actually am even saying that is as, like, a fun fact. I read an article that posits we have no evidence of this, but it's very likely that this man, Philip Quinn, who was the first African man ever ordained as a priest in the Church of England, was at the seance.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, go, Philip.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Because he was in London living with John Moore at the time.

[Lizzie Logan]

Jackie Robinson of Methodism.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So if there was a black man at the seance, people are like, it probably was him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which is interesting. Just a fun, interesting fact. So this group of about 20 men, including two to three preachers, clergymen, examine the bed and bedcloths and don't see any visible appearance of deceit. Elizabeth is put into bed where she says the hauntings take place. And the bed begins to shake. And they hear knocking. And they'd say they're going to ask questions. An answer is given by knocking or scratching. One knock means yes, two knocks means no, and scratching means she's upset like a cat. So they say, were you brought to an untimely end by poison? One knock, yes. And then they say, in what was the poison administered? Beer or Pearl. And Pearl is like an alcoholic beverage, like, Jen, I had to look that up. And she said, pearl, I guess by whichever name.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like one for the first answer, two for the second answer. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then they say, was it your husband who killed you? Yes. They're astonishing. She's accusing Kent.

[Lizzie Logan]

Incredible.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then.

[Lizzie Logan]

Incredible the way this ghost is answering leading questions.

[Dana Schwartz]

Leading questions. Well, ghosts can only answer yes or no questions. Otherwise, how would you communicate?

[Lizzie Logan]

How would you possibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

They ask more basic ghost questions. She says, like, I was not legally married to Kent. No other persons were concerned in the poisoning. The ghost would follow Elizabeth everywhere. And then they were like, are you pleased in answering our questions? Does it ease your mind? And she's like, yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, great. And that this is a consensual seance.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then they also. They ask the ghost if the person called Carrots was able to give information about the poison. And she says, yes. And Carrots is the nickname for the servant who lived with them because she had red hair. It's not her real name, but I like that her name is Carrots and that she is in the record as Carrots. And so they were like, carrots has more information. And then they get. They go to Carrots and bring her to the ghost. And Carrots is like, I don't know anything about this. I actually do not have any more information. And they were like, ghost, do you have something to say about this? And ghost is speechless. They also ask the ghost, would it ease your mind if the accused confessed? Yes. Would it ease your mind if the accused was hanged? Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

If they killed this guy based on testimony of a ghost?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, so here's the thing. These stories are being printed all over London, right? This is a very popular, scandalous, gossipy story.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

But I want to be clear. This is not like people in the past were stupid and everyone was falling for this. Because at the end of this gentleman's magazine that I was reading that, like, was a contemporary source about this. They said the last sentence was, as the imposter will soon probably be discovered. Let this short detail suffice to show the tendency of it. The whole of the nonsense would fill a magazine. So, okay, like, it's a funny, fun, funny story. Some people seem to really believe it. But, like, I think it's a mistake to be, like, everyone believed in ghosts.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, I don't. I'm not saying that. I just know that, like, people can get ideas in their heads and, like, stir up and, like, a fervor. And then I'm thinking the way, like, Internet mobs can, like, attack people based on rumors and. And, like, it would not surprise me if someone just went out and stabbed this guy and was, like, justice for your wife. And then it was like, oh, that was based on, like, the testimony of a ghost. You know what I mean?

[Dana Schwartz]

And Kent, to his. In his defense, is, like, taking this seriously.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because, again, this is, like, his life and reputation. He goes to one of these seances with the preacher, and when the ghost says that he'll be hanged, he says, thou art a lying spirit. Thou are not the ghost of my Fanny. She never would have said any such thing. Yeah, like, he is in this, and he is upset, and he's also, like, a widower. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, you're torturing this guy who's like, wife and, like, unborn child just died of smallpox.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, this is so mean.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, I mean, she's not in this story. But to think that he also just got married to someone else. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

In his grief.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. But I'm like, this poor third wife being like, oh, now the ghost of the dead wife is coming back, accusing him of poisoning her. Meanwhile, Cock Lane becomes a massive tourist attraction. People wait in line to do what?

[Lizzie Logan]

To talk to the ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

To talk to the ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God.

[Dana Schwartz]

People wait in line for hours to talk to the ghost. And Parsons allegedly charges them to ask the ghost questions that the ghost would answer with.

[Lizzie Logan]

So people kind of believe.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, a lot of people believe, especially Methodists.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

It becomes sort of a. The. She's known as Scratching Fanny of Cock Lane.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm so sorry.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, a great series of words

[Dana Schwartz]

put together, and she sort of becomes a cause that the Methodist movement takes on as proof of the spiritual afterlife.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

There's a lot of distinguished guests who come, including Horace Walpole, who's, like, a famous person from this time, but he

[Lizzie Logan]

think Sherlock Holmes probably, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. And who are our other heavy hitters? Did P.T. barnum come?

[Dana Schwartz]

Walpole says that he kind of thinks this is all Methodist nonsense, and he Said it's a drunk parish clerk. Set it on foot.

[Lizzie Logan]

There be a Methodist in his madness. All right, I'm really sorry. Please continue.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, his take on this is that a drunk parish clerk said it on foot out of revenge. The Methodist have adopted it, and the whole town of London think of nothing else. And I'm like, yes, correct.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But meanwhile, there's, like, several requests from more professional people to intercede. Like, even the Lord Mayor of London is like, hey, we need to figure something out. And Kent, the man who's being accused of murdering his wife, is like, I want to set the record straight.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so Stephen Aldrich, who's the local parish priest in Clerkenwell, who's, like, a bigger deal. He's more orthodox Anglican, so he's not in this Methodist nonsense. He invites a group together to investigate.

[Lizzie Logan]

Investigate the ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

The ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Because I was like, in terms of investigating the death, wouldn't. Are there cops at this time? Like, why are priests in charge of all of this?

[Dana Schwartz]

They're not investigating the death yet.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

They're just investigating the ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Okay, great.

[Dana Schwartz]

Priests are who you call for a ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's who. That's the Ghostbusters.

[Dana Schwartz]

Those. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Anglican priests. Anglican priests.

[Dana Schwartz]

Anglican priests.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. They ain't afraid of no ghosts.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so on February 1, 1762, quote, Many gentlemen eminent for their rank and character assemble for an examination. And the most famous man in this assembly is a man named Samuel Johnson. Does that name mean anything to you?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, but I feel like there's, like, so many Samuels and so many Johnsons that it almost rings too many bells.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, big deal. He's the. Created the dictionary of the English language, 1755. Heard of the dictionary?

[Lizzie Logan]

I thought some guy named Webster created the dictionary and that's why his name is on the dictionary.

[Dana Schwartz]

He gets there eventually, but Johnson did it first.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, Johnson had a biographer named Boswell who followed him everywhere. Anyway, Johnson is a big deal at this time. He's like, the intellectual heavy hitter of the mid-1700s. And in terms of ghosts, I think he's like, not. Not a believer. He says, quote, undecided whether or not there has ever been an instance of the spirit of any person appearing after death. All argument is against it, but all belief is for it. So that's what he believes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's like, I know there's no evidence, but, like, you kind of want to believe, right?

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, this haunting is happening a few streets from his house.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's in.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he's like, I'd like to know what's up.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'd like to know what's up. He's very curious.

[Lizzie Logan]

Something strange in your neighborhood. Who you gonna call?

[Dana Schwartz]

Samuel Johnson.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, Samuel Johnson.

[Dana Schwartz]

At 10pm this group of men meet in the bedroom with Elizabeth. And they sit for an hour and hear no bangs. And then they go downstairs to talk to Parsons. And they're like, this is a fraud. Right? And he says, no, I have no idea about anything. And the ghost, earlier, in one of, like, the earlier Q and A sessions, had promised to knock on the coffin containing Fanny's body and as, like, a token of her presence. And so basically, they are like, should we go down to the vault to see the. See if she's banging on the coffin? And while they're deciding, they're called back into the bedroom because there's knocks and scratches that start up. And Elizabeth says she feels the spirit like a mouse upon her back. They tell the girl to hold her hands and feet out of the bed, and from then, no noises. According to Samuel Johnson, who wrote about this, he says, from that time, though the spirit was very solemnly required to manifest its existence by appearance, by impression on the hand or body of any presence, by scratches, knocks, or any other agency. No evidence of any preternatural power was exhibited. So then they tell the spirit, okay, you're done banging here, but go bang on the coffin. So at 1am they all go into the church vault to see the coffin, and nothing happens. And they're like, okay, it's a fraud.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And they go back to the girl.

[Lizzie Logan]

Or like, it's a lame ghost. It's not much of a ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

They go back to Elizabeth, the young girl, who, again, is like, 11 at this time. 11 or 12. And they're like, confess. And she does not. But Samuel Johnson makes the determination. He says, it is therefore the opinion of the whole assembly that the child has some art of making or counterfeiting particular noise and that there is no agency of any higher cause. So at this point, people are like, this is a hoax. Most like intelligent people.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, but. And they think that Elizabeth is doing it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

It couldn't just be that, like, someone was in the walls.

[Dana Schwartz]

They don't know how it's happening.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But also, she's gone from house to house. She's done seances at a few different locations.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay. And she's the common denominator.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. But as they asked the ghost, they said, like, will you follow Elizabeth wherever she goes? And the ghost was like, yep. He's like, my daughter's being haunted by the ghost of Fan.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right. Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So most, like, what we would call rational people at this point, agree that there's a hoax happening. There are still some people who do believe, especially like Methodists, who have taken on this ghost as part of their. As part of their cause, as, like, part of evidence. And they claim, like, well, her body was moved. That's why the coffin didn't. Didn't bang. Someone had secretly moved her body.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh.

[Dana Schwartz]

Like her body had been removed from the coffin.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh. And they're. That's their theory. They're not citing that she was moved. They're like, oh, the only explanation is that she was moved. Okay, so that's like a conspiracy theory.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's that thing of when you believe something, you come up with reasons to

[Lizzie Logan]

make believe more evidence.

[Dana Schwartz]

But at this point, Mor, who was the reverend from St. Sepulchre's, tells Kent, like, look, I believe this ghost is a hoax. And Kent says, this is ruining my life. Yeah, write down what you know, please. At first, Mor does not want to because he still thinks that the spirit. He's like, okay, I think this is a hoax, but I still think there is a spirit. And I still think that the spirit's presence is a reminder of the sin, the fact that you lived out of wedlock.

[Lizzie Logan]

Let the man like wedlock. People get too hung up on wedlock, you know?

[Dana Schwartz]

I will ask you to read. Eventually he will make a full retraction. And this is the retraction, if you'd like to read it, which I find very thorough.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Injustice to the person whose reputation has been attacked in a most gross manner by the pretended ghost in Cock Lane. To check the credulity of the weak, to defeat the attempts of the malicious and to prevent further imposition on account of this absurd phenomenon. I do hereby certify that though from the several attendances on this occasion, I have not been able to point out how and in what manner these knockings and scratchings of the supposed ghost were contrived, performed, and continued, yet that I am convinced that these knockings and scratchings are. Were the effects of some artful, wicked persons.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's basically saying, look, every. It's like when. It's like when a celebrity has sent their fans on someone, and then it's like, guys, peace and love. Only when they're, like, bullying someone. So he's basically like, guys, this has gone too far. You have to stop with Kent's reputation. Yeah, I don't Know how the hoax is happening? I'm not involved, but I do think it's a hoax. Yeah, he's not taking responsibility.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, he didn't do it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, maybe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, did he?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know. But I'm just saying he was like one of the first people to be like, ghost, ghost, ghost. He at least could have been like taking responsibility for how he publicized it and how he legitimized it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Parsons at this point knows that now that Moore made this statement, now that Samuel Johnson and his committee made their statement that his back is kind of against the wall. So he allows Elizabeth to be examined a few more times at a few different houses, a few different locations. They examine her in a few different ways. But basically the long and short of it is the noises always stop when Elizabeth has her hands outside of the bed.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. So she's doing it with her hands

[Dana Schwartz]

and okay, at this point investigators are like, enough is enough. And they tell this 12 year old girl like, okay, if she's in this bed, no noises are happening. And they say, okay, well if the ghost doesn't make any noises by Sunday, your father's gonna be imprisoned. And then like lo and behold, the banging start. And the maids see her concealing a small piece of wood.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she's just been banging it under the covers.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's 6 inches by 4 inches. And she's been banging it against like the side of the bed.

[Lizzie Logan]

What an elaborate ruse.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a very simple plan. The maids tell the investigators. Turns out she was a 12 year old girl just doing this at the behest of her father. Kent, meanwhile, is still trying to clear his name. He literally gets a group together to go into the vault again and expose Fanny's corpse. Because people are still claiming that there was no knocking because her body had been secretly removed.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And they're like, nope, there she is. And that is actually what had prompted John Moore to be like, okay, I will make a formal statement. This has gone too far. You just had to dig. I mean, not dig up cause she was an a vault, but like bring up the disinter the smallpox corpse of your ex wife. Ex, not ex, common law wife. Common law wife.

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello? Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Stefano Pallard]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Stefano Pallard]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Stefano Pallard]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.comferrari

[Dana Schwartz]

if you're

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[Dana Schwartz]

so even with that public retraction that John Moore made, he is still arrested alongside Parsons, Mrs. Parsons, Mary Frazier, and a local tradesman named Richard James. And they're charged with conspiracy because the charges brought by William Kent. Basically, William Kent sues them. Yeah, For a conspiracy to take away his Life by charging him with the murder of Francis Lynes. By giving her poison whereof she died.

[Lizzie Logan]

So William Kent, the widower.

[Dana Schwartz]

Widower. Sues them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sues all the people who did the

[Dana Schwartz]

hoax for basically trying to kill him. Trying to get him hanged for making

[Lizzie Logan]

up a rumor about him being a murderer. Yes, I'm on his side.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah, they made up.

[Lizzie Logan]

You shouldn't be able to just accuse

[Dana Schwartz]

people of stuff, be a ghost. It's a pretty clear motive. Again, he had. Parsons had taken out a loan and not paid it back. Yeah. And he had sued him, and then he was like, well, fuck you. Yeah. You and your wife were living out of wedlock.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so he sues them. The name, if you didn't remember, Mary Frazier's one of the maids. And the. Richard James was like a local tradesman.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cheat. Carrot.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, Carrots had no involvement.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, good for Carrot.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Carrots was Fanny's maid.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, good for Carrot.

[Dana Schwartz]

Richard James was like a local tradesman who had written some of the more incendiary material for the public ledger. So he's the one who was planting stories.

[Lizzie Logan]

The current press needs to take a note from this story because, you know, I wasn't gonna talk about Blake Lively, but you can't just make stuff up about people.

[Dana Schwartz]

You can't just make stuff up. You gotta fact check these sources.

[Lizzie Logan]

You gotta fact check your sources.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie, how do you think the jury found?

[Lizzie Logan]

I think they probably found not guilty because they were religious and didn't want to say that it's impossible that there's ghosts.

[Dana Schwartz]

15 minutes. Guilty for all five. Okay. The two, John Moore, the preacher, and Richard James just pay £588 in damages to, quote, like, purchase their pardon. And they're dismissed with a severe reprimand. So they get, like, a fine and a warning.

[Lizzie Logan]

Fair.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mrs. Parsons gets one year in prison.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mary Frazier, who's, like a maid who helped out, gets six months.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Parsons is sentenced to two years prison and the pillory three times. You know what a pillory is?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, with the tomatoes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's the thing. Even at this point, he claims to be innocent and he sentenced the pillory three times. And apparently when he's in the pillory, usually people are like, tomatoes. Tomatoes. But allegedly, the crowd treats him, like, very kindly and collects money for him because a lot of the crowd were still believers.

[Lizzie Logan]

Interesting. I mean, well, that's their business.

[Dana Schwartz]

But.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they're. But they don't make Elizabeth do anything, right?

[Dana Schwartz]

No, she's a child who was just asked to do this at the behest of her father.

[Lizzie Logan]

All right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Not her fault.

[Lizzie Logan]

You know what? Go 18th century justices.

[Dana Schwartz]

What's interesting about this case and how it existed in the popular culture of the 18th century is that scratching Fanny became this proxy war for Anglicans and Methodists.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Anglicans are like, as I said, like, these Methodists are getting pretty Catholic over here because the Anglican Church of England by this time had sort of fallen away from the supernatural in favor of more rationalism. And Methodists were still about folk remedies and spiritual healing and did still believe in witches.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

But most, like, most of, like, the literati and like, the cultured people of this time were anti Methodist, especially some, like, cartoonists. So Hogarth, who's like a famous cartoonist, makes several illustrations involving scratching fanny and the Cock Lane ghost that are indirect attacks on Methodist ministers. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Is it sort of like that classic, like, upper class, lower class thing of, like, being dismissive of folklore and, like, midwives versus doctors and like, oh, you people with your rural medical practices and listening to the spirits of the elders. We here in the upper classes have. Whatever. Whatever. I mean, like, in this case, I agree.

[Dana Schwartz]

But I think it's also kind of like. I think. Yes. And I also think it's kind of a dismissal of, like, the masses, the hoi polloi.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Cause so Walpole, who is like one of the people who examined earlier, makes a note about the Cockland ghosts and kind of. He thinks that the Methodists are sort of using it cynically. He says the Methodists were glad to have such a key to the credulity of the mob.

[Lizzie Logan]

I agree. Yeah. I mean, they were just using it to get at this guy who all he did was fall in love with his dead wife's sister.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, what I think happened in simplest terms is this guy who owned the property, the landlord didn't pay a debt back, was mad at the guy, tried to get revenge on him by inventing a ghost story. And then because it reinforced, like, a version of the world that Methodists wanted to believe in. Not only that the spiritual afterlife is closer to us than we realize, but also, like, see the sin of the people living. Living out of wedlock that they took it and ran with it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. When it maybe got out of hand.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Like, I think Parsons was just like, I want to get revenge on this guy who sued me over a debt.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the Methodists were kind of, as a movement, like, what I found interesting was, okay, so there was this guy named George Bell who was part of the Methodist movement. And then he claimed that he had reached Christian perfection and was experiencing visions. And he himself had spiritual powers. And even the founder of the Methodism movement, like, disavowed him. But as a historian wrote with Bell, it's an example of how difficult it was to distinguish religious zeal and visionary spiritual gifts from, quote, pretending to special revelations. Which is kind of exactly what this is where it's like, once you have a of sense spiritual movement that allows that sort of woo, woo freedom, there's nothing to stop. Just like one rogue guy being like, hey, I'm using this for my own ends. And I want to bring your attention. I mentioned Hogarth, who's the satirist. I want to bring your attention to a few drawings. So this is a Hogarth cartoon. That is a Methodist minister. You can see a witch dangling from him.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. It's like everything in the courtroom is all spooky.

[Dana Schwartz]

He is inserting. This is a Methodist minister inserting sort of a phallic object into a woman's bodice.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the idea there is that we're associating Methodists with, quote, sexual and religious passion, which is kind of the slur attached to them at this time. I also want to draw your attention to this figure in the corner of the drawing. Does this look familiar?

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, it's Mary Toft. She's giving birth to rabbits.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a woman giving birth to rabbits. This entire picture is sort of making the credulity of the masses. And there is a figure here. This is the figure of the. Of scratching, fanny and the bed with those.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, interesting. I wouldn't have clocked that, but I

[Dana Schwartz]

do see it now. What I find very interesting is allegedly I tried to do research. Are you aware of what fanny means in the uk, a slang?

[Lizzie Logan]

It's your vagina. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

It is your vagina. In America it's like your butt, but in the UK it means your vagina. Yeah, that slang didn't really. Apparently didn't exist for like a hundred years after this. And yet I do find it very interesting that all depictions of, quote, unquote, scratching, fanny.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's a little vaginal look.

[Dana Schwartz]

Very vaginal. I'm gonna show you more. But that's the symbolic representation of this ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

Do you think that's where that comes from then?

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not apparently, but it could be. And this figure, if you see sort of a racist caricature also in the corner, it's because there were black people involved in this movement. So it's like, making fun of that. There's also this other Hogarth one with Fanny here.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yeah. She looks less vaginal there, but there's still definitely layers of labia in her outfit.

[Dana Schwartz]

Another scratching. Fanny in bed.

[Lizzie Logan]

Interesting.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's pretty. I find it pretty vaginal.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's, like, some Georgia Okeefe stuff going on, but.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, so this was the talk of London, but it became gossip that was used to talk about a bigger topic.

[Lizzie Logan]

Gossip's always about a bigger topic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Gossip is always about something more. Like in that. The cartoon, the Hogarth cartoon, where Fanny is in the pillory. She's also in a pillory with this, like, radical politician, John Wilkes. Because they're trying to be like, look at these demagogues. Both Methodists and John Wilkes appeal to the masses in unseemly ways. So this is in the 1760s. Eighty years later, the spiritualism in America will kick off when the Fox sisters in Hydesville begin rapping at the. I mean, they're doing the same thing. They're like doing wood under their skirts. It's the same trick. And literally, it has a massive nationwide effect 80 years later, even though it is the simplest trick that there ever could be. Yeah. What I find interesting about the contrast between those two cases is for the Fox sisters, no one really ever talks about which the specific ghosts they're talking to. It's just like they're talking to spirits.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. There's no, like, ghost agenda.

[Dana Schwartz]

I know personally the Fox sisters, but, like, I can't, off the top of my head, think of, like, which ghosts they were talking to.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Where in this story, it was very much scratching Fanny specifically. So I do think that's an interesting change. Why by 80 years later, it's like, people realize, like, no, it's not actually about revenge or specific ghosts. It's just about using these wrappings as proof of something greater.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right. Because then you can bring more to it. Like the. Each audience member will bring their own ghost that they want to talk to.

[Dana Schwartz]

It just becomes more and more abstract where it's like this. Literally, like this one case on Cock Lane was this one guy, Parsons, getting revenge on the usurer who tried to, God forbid, collect on a loan and it spiraled out of hand.

[Lizzie Logan]

Interesting.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think this hoax gets a lot of attention on the Internet because it's funny to talk about scratching Fanny of Cock Lane.

[Lizzie Logan]

It is.

[Dana Schwartz]

And what's less funny is the subtle distinctions between Methodists and more orthodox Anglicans in the 1760s. But just as important it is.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it also reminds Me? Have I already given you my take on, like, folklore versus rationalism in Outlander?

[Dana Schwartz]

Give it to me again because it's very smart.

[Lizzie Logan]

So for those of you who haven't seen, Outlander is about this woman who. She was a World War II nurse, and she time travels back to the middle of the 17th century in Scotland. So she has, like, 20th century medical know how, and she touches these, like, magical rocks and she time travels and she gets back to the olden days, and she's like, oh, I can use my 20th century medical knowledge to help all these people. And she does, and they're like, great, we really like you. But part of what she keeps running into is they have all of these

[Dana Schwartz]

sort of, like, superstitious beliefs.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, they have all these superstitious, like, folklore beliefs that she keeps, like, butting up against where she's like, oh, like, I can't believe you think that your baby was, like, changed out by fairies, obviously. Like, your. Your baby is sick with cholera or whatever. Or like, oh, like, you think that you're having a religious vision when really this is an epileptic fit or something. And she's, like, really frustrated by their sort of backwards way of thinking. And I'm like, okay, I get that as, like, the perspective that the show has, but I'm also just like, lady, you time traveled through rocks. Like, how does she ever not. If that happened to me, I would be like, I guess anything's possible.

[Dana Schwartz]

Anything's possible.

[Lizzie Logan]

If I time traveled through rocks, I would be like, magic is real. And if I went to a castle and they were like, this castle is extremely haunted, and you have to wear garlic around your neck because there's a bunch of vampires. And I knew that those vampires were actually just, like, people with Marfan syndrome, I would be like, well, I guess they're vampires and there's no such thing as Marfan syndrome, because I time traveled through rocks, so I guess anything is possible. So that was. That's my one issue with Claire from Outlander.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, Lizzie, I will say, by the time this podcast is out, I'm just

[Lizzie Logan]

saying, if I time traveled back to and then I met Scratching Fanny, even though I know the story of Scratching Fanny, I would be like, I guess she's a ghost because I time travel.

[Dana Schwartz]

Or maybe it's a time traveler stuck in a wall.

[Lizzie Logan]

Maybe it was a time traveler stick in a wall.

[Dana Schwartz]

I will say, can you bring that

[Lizzie Logan]

up to Diana Gabaldon when you meet her?

[Dana Schwartz]

I was saying, by the time this episod last week, last Monday I was doing an event to promote my new book, the Arcane Arts with the author of Outlander herself, Diana Gabaldon. And I will play her this audio clip and I will ask her, Lizzy, send me a voice memo. We'll see what she thinks.

[Lizzie Logan]

I've heard that in the because there is more magic as Outlander goes on. And so I've heard that Claire becomes more open minded. So I, I guess that sort of small inconsistency is addressed. Addressed.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it's a good point.

[Lizzie Logan]

During the Q and A actually. Can you, can you embarrass lovely like 75 year old Diana Gabilon? Can you embarrass.

[Dana Schwartz]

So kind to be doing this event for me. Thank you so much.

[Lizzie Logan]

Can you bring it up in front of the entire crowd? Can you just be like, hey, before we start, Diana, before we start. Oh great. Yeah, just at the top to set the tone. Can you just be like, hey, what is Claire's deal? Why isn't she more open minded about folklore and magic? Why doesn't she believe in fant. She time traveled through standing stones. What's her fucking deal?

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, I'll do that. To set the scene of this lovely woman doing a favor for me that she absolutely did not have to do. Thank you so much, Dana. Lizzie, where can the good people find you?

[Lizzie Logan]

We're @OakStepodcast on Instagram.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm also Aina Schwartz with 3Zs on Instagram. The Arcane Arts is available now with or without Diana Gabaldon's approval, depending on how the events.

[Lizzie Logan]

I love you, Diana.

[Dana Schwartz]

That has happened in the past. When you're listening has gone. Please follow the podcast on Instagram. We're approaching the end of season one.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes, there's one more episode after this.

[Dana Schwartz]

One more episode. And so you'll be first to know about where this show will be living. But follow now and thanks for listening.

[Lizzie Logan]

Please Hoax responsibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Bye.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Gnomes Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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[Lizzie Logan]

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