Auction Scandals, New Releases, And The Black Bay 58 Revisited

Summary

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HODINKEE Podcast: "Auction Scandals, New Releases, And The Black Bay 58 Revisited"

Date: October 12, 2020
Host: Stephen Pulvirent
Guests: Jack Forester, Danny Milton, James Stacey, Cole Pennington

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a classic roundtable among Hodinkee editors, exploring three core themes:

• The underbelly and allure of watch auctions, including cautionary tales and community vigilance.
• A lightning-round deep dive into notable recent watch releases across price points and brands.
• An in-depth revisit of the Tudor Black Bay 58, digging into why this neo-vintage diver has struck such a chord, with added discussion of the new Navy Blue variant.

The tone is candid, witty, and enthusiastic—balancing critical insight with the editors’ infectious joy for watches and the culture surrounding them.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up: Wrist Shots & Watch Joy ([04:47-06:36])

• Watches of the Day:
  • Danny: 34mm Omega Seamaster on leather—“Just makes me happy.”
  • Jack: Timex LCD Q—“It is what it is… a really affordable nostalgia trip.”
  • Stephen: Hodinkee x IWC Mark 18 on fabric—“Everything you need, nothing you don’t.”
• Key Insight:
  • The editors emphasize personal enjoyment over price or prestige. Jack notes, “You can take watches seriously without taking yourself seriously.” (06:24)

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2. The Watch Auction World: Cautionary Tales & Community Vigilance

a. The Allure and the Risks ([08:19-13:35])

• Auctions draw everyone from CEO’s to collectors to competitors—“The broad spectrum of personalities and perspectives and politics of this little world... all play out in real time with dollar figures attached in a room.” – Stephen (08:52)
• Three cautionary tales:
  • Jack references his recent article on auction scandals (10:35): two from the auction world (watches & wine), one from furniture, all centered on brilliant forgers who “were so passionate about what they were faking that it actually bled into the quality.”
  • “Scammers are successful at scamming because they’re really, really good at it... you tend to go for it. People want to be part of a great story.” – Jack (11:12)

b. Learning the Ropes ([13:35-15:14])

• Danny’s Learning Curve:
  • His “welcome to Hodinkee” moment: writing up an auction lot only to be “politely (or impolitely) called out” by the comments for missing fine print about swapped bezels.
  • Emphasizes the need for skepticism and humility as a watch writer.

c. The Watch Community’s Vigilance ([15:14-18:19])

• “The online watch community is really, really good at policing auctions... The Watch Internet just lights up like a Christmas tree. The level of scrutiny is really high and I think that’s a nice thing to recognize.” – Jack (16:19)
• Tracking Provenance:
  • Danny points out the ability to track the history of a watch through decades of auction records as “super fascinating.” (17:36)

d. Hot Auction Results ([18:19-24:02])

• Results from Sotheby’s Hong Kong:
  • Philippe Dufour Simplicity #100 sold for ~$662K; another for $455K.
  • “The stuff that's special is special. People still want it... All of these things perform on the basis of their own merits.” – Jack (19:40)
  • “He set the standard for independent watchmaking… but there’s a romance to watchmaking. We all love the idea of the genius toiling away in isolation and producing things of unparalleled beauty.” – Jack (23:09)
• Reflection:
  • Even at wild prices, “it all fits” when the object truly is that rare and special. – Danny (23:09)

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3. Noteworthy New Releases—Elevator Pitches & Impressions

Format: Stephen gives Danny and Jack 20–30 seconds to pitch each watch (25:32)

a. Omega Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary ([25:32-28:32])

• Danny:
  • Third Silver Snoopy; new silver dial with blue accents; key innovation is the mechanically animated caseback—Snoopy “flies” around the moon as the chrono runs—“It actually made me light up.”
• Jack:
  • “The engines light up.” anecdote; “Who cares about purism, Snoopy goes around in a spaceship!” (28:11)
• Mood: Delight in whimsy over strict horological seriousness.

b. Nomos Lambda in Steel ([30:15-32:48])

• Jack:
  • “A design and a movement story, as usual with Nomos. Originally a ~$20K gold watch, now $7,500 in steel—still beautifully executed, still that killer movement.”
• Danny:
  • Slightly wears large, especially with the thin bezel, but brings “distilled Bauhaus design” to a wider audience.

c. Blancpain Fifty Fathoms Day Date Desert Edition ([33:47-36:54])

• Danny:
  • “Desert diver”—a contradiction, but it works. Reference to 1962 Death Valley dive. “Evokes a desert. You look at it and go, ‘yeah, that makes sense.’”
• Jack:
  • “Dive watches really bring out the puritanical in people... but people did, you know, allow themselves to occasionally have a little fun with them. And I really like the Desert Diver.” (35:43)
  • Ties into how great vintage pieces had quirks; this captures that spirit.

d. AP Code 11.59 Grand Sonnerie Carillon Supersonnerie ([36:54-40:07])

• Jack:
  • Very rare wristwatches. “One of the best in the business”—Anita Porchet—does the dial. “If you love complicated watchmaking… there’s just nothing else like it in the world.”
• Danny:
  • “Seems to be a great vessel for a movement like this and for the enamel work.”

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4. Re-Review: Tudor Black Bay 58 [A Week on the Wrist Revisited]

Segment with: Stephen, James Stacey, and Cole Pennington ([41:35-83:44])

a. Why the BB58 Struck Gold ([42:01-45:41])

• Released at Baselworld 2018 alongside the Black Bay GMT and blew up with waitlists over a year.
• “Closest thing you can buy today to a vintage Tudor or Rolex Submariner… Great in-house movement at a reasonable price.” – Stephen (45:21)

b. Standout Features ([46:30-48:21])

• Size and Profile:
  • “The moment you pick it up or put it on your wrist, the size and profile... are astounding. It almost feels like a familiar old friend.” – Stephen (46:30)
  • “A new Tudor that wears like an old Tudor.” – James (45:35)
  • “You can’t tell when this was made—could be 2020, could be 1960.” – Cole (46:30)

c. Historical DNA ([49:12-50:58])

• Mash-up of Tudor elements: vintage big crowned shape, but with “snowflake” hands (1970s), and a mix of other cues—“A one watch history lesson on Tudor.” – Stephen (50:37)

d. Best Design Choices ([51:08-54:50])

• Favorite details:
  • Red triangle on the bezel (Cole)
  • Proportioned, legible hands (James)
  • Gilt dial and warmth (Stephen):
    “There’s something so deep and rich and charming about [gilt dials]” (53:06)
• Debate: Is there too much guilt? Is the bezel too overt? Varies by taste.

e. What Would You Change? ([57:24-61:44])

• James: Less or no gilt.
• Cole: Wished for Mercedes hands over snowflake for more design continuity.
• Stephen: Silver bezel markings instead of gold, and more micro-adjustments on the bracelet; also noted bracelet sizing is tricky.
• On “faux rivets”: Panel universally shrugs—“A non issue for me. I wouldn’t notice it if I owned the watch.” – James (63:57)

f. "Could This Be One Watch for Life?" ([70:13-72:36])

• Universally, yes.
  • James: “This is what Rolex and Tudor have always done best—making a watch that a well-heeled non-watch enthusiast might buy, wear for 40 years, and hand down.” (70:13)
  • Cole: Loved the engravable caseback—great for gifting and legacy.

g. New Navy Blue BB58 ([74:26-82:29])

• “It’s just a color change—but it does mean something. It gets people excited.” – Cole (78:26)
• James:
  • Blue is “one step adjacent from black… change the color without changing its versatility.” (75:31)
  • Excited about additional variations: “Steel bezel, two-tone, GMT... this is a product line now, not just a one-off.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Watch Auctions:
  “People want to be part of a great story. It almost doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not, as long as it’s a rich and compelling narrative.” – Jack (12:41)

• On the Online Watch Community:
  “The Watch Internet just lights up like a Christmas tree. And I think that the fact that the Watch Internet in general really does want to collectively make sure that everything is correct helps… keep everyone honest.” – Jack (16:19)

• On New Watch Joy in 2020:
  “Sometimes you just want to have a good time. Like, you can buy something expensive or inexpensive, complicated or not... If you’re going to wear a watch, make it one that puts a smile on your face.” – Stephen (06:02)

• On Embracing Watch Whimsy:
  “Who cares? Snoopy goes around in a spaceship around the moon.” – Jack re: the Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th (28:11)

• On Black Bay 58’s Appeal:
  “It’s a new Tudor that wears like an old Tudor.” – James (45:35) “All the skepticism just melted away the second it got on the wrist.” – Cole (73:39)

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Timestamps for Reference

• [04:47] – "What’s on the Wrist" Segment
• [08:19] – Auction Season & Watch Industry Gatherings
• [10:35] – Jack’s Auction Scandals & Cautionary Tales
• [13:53] – Danny’s Learning Curve in Auction Reporting
• [15:14] – Online Community Vigilance
• [18:19] – Dufour Simplicity Auction Results
• [25:31] – New Watch Releases (Snoopy, Lambda, Blancpain, AP Code 11.59)
• [41:35] – Revisit: Tudor Black Bay 58 (A Week on the Wrist)
• [74:26] – Black Bay 58 Navy Blue Variant Discussion
• [82:29] – BB58 as a Product Category; More Variants Speculation

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Conclusion

A rich, multi-layered episode balancing skepticism and celebration. The team underscores the necessity of scrutiny (especially in auctions), the enduring thrill of a compelling new watch, and why designs like the Black Bay 58 become instant classics. Throughout, their camaraderie and passion shine, making the discussion as inviting to newcomers as to seasoned collectors.

Most memorable takeaways:

• “You can take watches seriously without taking yourself seriously.”
• “Snoopy goes around in a spaceship around the moon.”
• “Sometimes you just want to have a good time.”

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Transcript

[Jack Forester]

Certain kinds of watches do certain kinds of things to certain kinds of people. Like, I feel like chronographs have the potential to bring out the worst in a watch. Designer people seem to be unable to resist adding, just like that, one thing that the design totally doesn't need. Dive watches really bring out the puritanical in people. You know, you look at a dive watch, you say to yourself, okay, dive watch. This is a purpose built instrument designed to fulfill a singular purpose. It must tick all of these boxes in order to conform to the international standard for dive watches. And anything, anything that is even remotely superfluous to the singularity of purpose detracts from the purity and integrity of the watch and makes it an exercise in falsehoods, lies and marketing a soulless contraption devised only to separate the foolish from their money. And okay.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

You said so much in those two letters. Okay. Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Pulverin and this is Hodinkee Radio. Over the last few weeks we've had some amazing guests on the show and we've also done a call in show giving us a chance to answer some of your questions right on the air. But we're going to go a little old school with things this week and focus on conversations with just our editors. There's been a lot going on in the watch world. We're getting ready to head into what most of us would think of as the busy season heading toward the December holidays. And there have been plenty of new releases and we're also starting to enter the fall auction season. So I got Jack and Danny into the virtual studio with me to sort through all of this. Jack offers up some key insights into the sketchier side of the auction business as well as gives us a detailed look at one of today's great watch related artists and a new project that she engaged in with Audemars Piguet. While Danny's here to help me digest the onslaught of new releases that are going to be hitting retailers over the coming months and kind of just keep me up to date and keep me honest on what's happening in the new release space. After that, you're going to hear our second week on the Wrist Revisited segment. If you remember, a while back we did one of these with the Tudor Black Bay GMT review that James had done and we figured we'd follow that up with another take on a Tudor classic that the Black Bay 58. If you haven't read my original review or seen the video, we'll link it up in the show. Notes you should go check that out. But I sit down with James and Cole, and we kind of walk through the reviews step by step, talk about how our perceptions of the watch has changed, and even reflect on what's new in the world of The Black Bay 58, most notably the new navy blue version that came out this year. I still love this watch. I think there's a lot more to say about it. You'll hear I'm kind of long winded, but I think it's a watch a lot of people like, and I think it's worth it. So knowing that we got a lot of ground to cover, I'm going to leave it at that. And let's get into it. This week's episode is presented by Grand Seiko and the new 2020 season special editions. The pair of special watches are inspired by the end of autumn, when the first frost settles over the forest floor, referred to as Soko in Japan. For more, stay tuned or visit grandseiko.us.com. Hey, guys. How you doing Friday afternoon?

[Jack Forester]

It is Friday.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Jack, you didn't do anything this week, did you?

[Jack Forester]

Oh, you know, a little this, a little that.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I actually got to see Jack this week, which is only the second time I have seen Jack Forester in what, six months? Jack was in the office signing some Accutron books for our friends over in the Hodinkee shop and got to actually have like a face to face conversation with Jack for the first time in a while. It was pretty nice. Bet you're jealous, Danny.

[Danny Milton]

I'm j. I'm very jealous. I was just about to say extremely jealous.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Well, we'll get the band back together hopefully soon enough.

[Jack Forester]

Multiple. All the bands. We have to get all the bands back together.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

All the bands. So many bands. We'll be like one of those, like, weird super groups from the, like, 60s or 70s.

[Danny Milton]

Be like the Partridge Family. It's even better.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Okay, cool. I'll. I'll go with that one.

[Danny Milton]

Maybe not better.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

The Traveling What's. What's their faces. What's. What's that band?

[Jack Forester]

The Traveling Wilburys.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Thank you.

[Danny Milton]

Oh, that was a good band. We like that. That's good.

[Jack Forester]

I don't know that the Partridge Family has aged that well.

[Danny Milton]

I prefer George Harrison, Bob Dylan and. And Tom Petty.

[Cole Pennington]

This is.

[Danny Milton]

At the end of the day, this.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Is what the people come to Hodinkee Radio for, is to listen to me babble about George Harrison side projects that I can't remember the names of. That's what keeps the people coming back week after week. All right, so before we get in the real meat, we got to give the people what they want. What's on the wrist.

[Danny Milton]

So I'm wearing my 34 millimeter Omega Seamaster today. Got the leather strap since the weather's cooling down just a little bit, even though today's kind of a little warmer than it was yesterday. But I just love this watch. If anyone hasn't seen, I wrote a little article about it a couple weeks or maybe a couple months back. At this point, it's hard to keep track of time. But, yeah, I love this watch. And, yeah, just makes me happy.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Very nice. Jack, how about you?

[Jack Forester]

I'm actually wearing the Timex LCD Q that I wrote up not long ago. I'm having a blast wearing it. I have to say, for some, you know, I strap it on and the years fall away and it's the 1970s again. Was it the 1970s? Yeah, it's 19. Speaking of the 1970s. And the Partridge Family is on the radio. Oh, boy.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I think that's a fun one. I'm very glad you're wearing that watch.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, I'm having a great time with it. You know, it. It is what it is, as they say. But what it is is a really affordable nostalgia trip that, even leaving aside questions of price, is something that you can just enjoy the hell out of. And it's, you know, it's nice to kind of. I mean, I love the heavy, complicated stuff with tremendous amount of rich history that speaks to the length, depth, and breadth of high horology. But every once in a while, you just want to have a good time.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I think that there is no better message. I think in 2020 for watches is like, sometimes you just want to have a good time. Like, you can buy something expensive. You can buy something inexpensive, something complicated, something not complicated, but just like, you know, considering how crazy the world is right now, if you're going to wear a watch, make it one that puts a smile on your face. Like, have a good time with it.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's also a nice reminder that you can take watches seriously without taking yourself seriously. And, you know, that's not a bad thing to remember either. How about you, Steven?

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I'm rocking the Hodinkee IWC Mark 18 collab. I've been wearing the hell out of this watch. Put it on a fabric strap recently, not the OEM strap, but a different fabric strap. And I just love, kind of like, it scratches the same itch that my vintage Explorer scratches that my 1016 scratches. But it's a modern watch. It's a little bit bigger, weighs nothing. Because the case is serotonin, you pretty much can't scratch it because the case is ceratanium. So, like, it's. It's great. Like, I don't have to worry about it. But it's also very simple. Everything you need, nothing you don't. Which. Which really speaks to me. All right, so we got our watch collections in the books. Let's start digging into stuff. I want to talk about auctions first. Auctions are my favorite. My favorite thing in the watch world, like, more than any of the trade shows. Whatever. I like going to Geneva for the auctions. I like going up to midtown and having all the Europeans come into New York for the auctions. Jack, normally this time of year, you and I would be getting ready to take our annual trip over to Geneva to do any number of things. GPHG stuff, cultural council for the fhh. But that always culminates in the auctions, and we've gotten to attend some pretty fun ones. And also, to be honest, I was kind of looking forward to taking Danny to some auctions. I feel like, Danny, you'd get a serious kick out of this. So here's to hoping that things open back up soon, and maybe in the spring, we can, the three of us or some combination of us, get over to Geneva for some auctions. But it's auction season.

[Jack Forester]

Danny probably feels like we kind of took him for a ride. I mean, he joined Hodinkee just in time to not go anywhere ever.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

True. That's right.

[Danny Milton]

I got to go into the office very briefly and then go nowhere, then stay exactly in place, and you're forced.

[Jack Forester]

To hear everybody's nostalgic war stories about how great it was to go to Geneva and how great it is to go to Baselworld.

[Danny Milton]

Everything happened just to spite me. Baselworld is no more. That means I can never. I never did go. Never can go.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, we're the salt in the wound line item on your. On your cv.

[Danny Milton]

It's a reminder every day. It's okay.

[Jack Forester]

We'll make it up to you.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I forgive you. I mean, Danny, just to. Just to keep on that path for a moment, if you'll bear with me here. One of my favorite things about the auctions. And, Jack, correct me if you disagree, but it's one of those strange times where really the whole watch industry comes together. You'll see executives from Audemars, Piguet and Patek and Rolex at the auctions, but at the same time, you See all the dealers who, the vintage dealers who are out and about. You see some of the top collectors in the world. You see the people who are the auction infrastructure themselves. Like, I've seen Christie's reps at Phillips Auctions and Sotheby's reps at Bonham's Auctions. And like, you really get to see like the broad spectrum of personalities and perspectives and politics of this little world we're in. All play out in real time with dollar figures attached in a room. And it's like, personally, I find it pretty electrifying.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, it's super weird sometimes to see all those people together in the same place. You know, you kind of feel like an elementary school kid running into one of your teachers outside of the classroom. You're like, no, no, no, you don't exist outside of that building.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

That's very true. I never thought about it that way. But you're spot on. You know, I think, Jack, I want to, I want to start our discussion here really with this story you wrote this week called 3 Auction World Cautionary Tales for watch collectors. And this, I think gets into the weirdness of the auction world. And I wonder if you can give us like the quick like TLDR version of this story, just for folks who haven't read it yet, which they should. We'll link it up in the notes. But give us, give us a quick recap here.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, sure. The first of all, the title is misleading. It's actually two Auction World Cautionary tales and one furniture dealer cautionary tale. But I hope, you know, people won't give me too much of a hard time for that. So what it is essentially was, it's a look at three sort of scandals that broke in three very different realms of collecting that I have that have almost nothing in common except for you have extremely good fakes being produced by an extremely good knowledgeable faker who absolutely loves what he's faking, which I think is actually a prerequisite to doing a good fake. You actually, this is weird with a weird paradox. You actually have to be in love with the real thing in order to make a good fake. There's a lot of money involved in all three of these scandals. And there is a sort of willingness to suspend disbelief on everybody's part that kept each of these three scams, you know, kind of going for years and years and years. And this is not, I want to say at the outset, this is not victim blaming at all. I mean, the reason that scammers are successful at scamming is because they're really, really good at it. You know, nobody who's ever been, you know, taken in any kind of con should feel like it reflects on their character, because, you know, it doesn't. The people who are trying to fool you know what it is that you were looking for and they give it to you, and, you know, quite naturally you, you know, you tend to go for it. But I do think that there was an interesting kind of parallel between all three of these, you know, particular scandals and kind of what goes on in watch collecting as well. Obviously, because they're, you know, what you have in watch collecting is, in watch auctions is a situation where you have extremely high value items which in many cases were series produced, which are relatively easy to fake or to, you know, it's. Or it's relatively easy to take something that's close to what people want, but not what they want and turn it into what they want. You have potentially a great deal of money involved, so there's a tremendous incentive every side to kind of perpetuate the fiction, if in fact a fiction is going on. And, you know, these sorts of things can. Can be very interesting to watch just because I think the thing that it illustrates more than anything else is the degree to which people want to be part of a great story. You know, it almost doesn't matter whether it's true or not, as long as it's a rich and compelling narrative and you feel like you are part of something that excites you. And in every case, in all three of these cases, one had to do with wine, one had to do with furniture, one had to do with somebody faking old master paintings, which, you know, as I got into the story, it's both very difficult to do on. On a certain level and very easy to do on a certain level. You know, in all three of these cases, you had people producing these things who were so passionate about them that actually bled into the quality of what they were faking and the people who were supporting it. You know, people validating these things, you know, quote unquote, experts, auction houses and collectors themselves, Everybody had a huge stake in being perceived as an expert and a huge financial stake. And we're deriving a huge amount of pleasure in going along for the ride. And, you know, seeing that sort of thing go on, to me is intriguing and it's an interesting lens through which.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

To look at watch collecting that's really fascinating. I mean, Danny, you're, You're, of the three of us, the kind of newest to this this dynamic. But in your experience, have you. Have you encountered any of this kind of, kind of behavior in your reporting? And just like being a part of the watch community a little bit, you.

[Danny Milton]

Know, I've gotten to do some auction reports since I've been here for auctions that were either happening virtually or in person from afar that we didn't get to go see. And I've sort of learned not to take things at face value, and I think I've learned it the hard way. And I know that Jack and I have had offline conversations about this where he sort of let me know, you know, in the wake. And I'm not going to call out specific watches, but it's situations where a watch is presented as having a bezel that matches the dial or. Whereas if you look closely at the pictures, you'll actually notice that the original bezel is pictured as sort of an accoutrement to the photo of the watch. So it's sitting there sort of off to the side in this nice picture. But nowhere in the description of what's being auctioned is the watch being, you know, advertised as watch with, you know, replacement artificial bezel. And then, you know, my first sort of, you know, welcome to Hodinkee moment was writing that up and then being, you know, politely called out and. Or impolitely, for that matter, in the comments, which is a great learning moment. It's a great learning moment for me. And I know that Jack sort of let me know who a lot of the players are in that world and what might go on. And, you know, there's a lot more. It's not necessarily fact checking, but you just have to be aware that there's a gamesmanship and. And so that's sort of what I've learned a lot so far.

[Jack Forester]

There's a couple of things that really fascinate me about this whole situation. The first is that it's really freaking terrifying to be a watch writer because we all have to be generalists. And what that means is no matter what you write about, there is somebody who is an expert and they are going to be scrutinizing what you wrote, looking for mistakes, because it's fun to, you know, I mean, that's, that's. It's. The detective work is fun. You know, it's not even necessarily malicious. It's just. It's just, you know, these are people who have a basic interest in everything being correct and all of the I's being dotted and all of the T's being crossed and, you have to, you have to realize that and you have to go into everything that you do, if you're a Watch writer with a little bit of humility and, you know, a sense of realism about the limits of your own knowledge. And I think the second thing that's really interesting about it is the online watch community is really, really good at policing auctions. I don't know whether this is true of, I mean, I don't collect, you know, $7,000 a bottle vintage Bordeaux or. And I Certainly don't collect 20 million dollar Old Master paintings.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Disappointed.

[Jack Forester]

But my sense, I failed on so many levels.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

It's all right, Jack. This is a safe space.

[Jack Forester]

Personally, socially, financially. What was I saying? Oh yeah, it's, it's. The online watch community really scrutinizes things very, very, very closely. And I think the auction houses know that and it helps keep everything and everyone honestly. And you know, there are always situations where it's always possible to be mistaken. You know, there are always situations where somebody says, oh, hey, I'm going to call this out. You know, this was not a, this is not a legitimate watch. And they do a little bit more research or somebody who knows a little bit more than them takes a look at the same lot and they say, you know, a couple of days later, hey, you know, my bad, my mistake. I called this out as, you know, a fake or a Franken watch. And it's not. But that's part of what keeps things exciting, you know, I mean, there's a tremendous dynamic flow of information. Whenever an auction catalog comes out, you know, the Watch Internet just lights up like a Christmas tree. And I think that the fact that the Watch Internet in general really does want to collectively make sure that everything is correct helps, you know, it helps keep everyone honest. It certainly doesn't prevent fraud. That would be, that would be impossible. But the level of scrutiny is really high and I think that's a nice, it's nice to acknowledge that. It's nice to recognize that there are a lot of people out there who work very hard to make sure that corrections do take place when they need to.

[Danny Milton]

Well, the one thing I actually think is really interesting from a positive perspective is especially in the case where these aren't at a high level, you know, groundbreaking auction pieces, you can track them, you know, especially if they come up for auction before. I like that. It's a tangible object where you can sort of track it through different auction houses over the course of, you know, 10 or more years. And that was one of the situations where I found out is when researching a piece, just to make sure that, you know, everything is what it seems to be, you can actually look to see if that watch ever came up by looking for the reference number or so on and so forth. And to be able to actually track a single watch's history through the auction circuit is to me that was something I had never done before. But I find that to be super fascinating.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

We could probably talk about this in kind of a theoretical sense for forever, but I want to touch on. We got today our first kind of taste of results of the fall season. So Sotheby's hosted their sale in Hong Kong the day that we're recording this. And a pair of Philippe Dufour simplicities achieved. I think maybe the technical term is bonkers prices. Is that maybe the term, the term of art simplicity number 100 sold for just over $660,000. 662, 698 is the full US dollar price at the current conversion rates. And you know, it's, it's a 34 millimeter simplicity, so generally the less desirable size, but it's number 100 that's engraved on the movement. There were only supposed to be 100 of them. He upped it to 200. Now it's going to be 221. So I get why collectors are in on that. And then we have another 37 millimeter simplicity in white gold, which sold for another crazy price. Not quite as crazy, but a hair over $455,000. So it looks like at the very least, the market for super high end independent watches is hot. Is that a fair take?

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, yeah, I think so. You know, the stuff that's special is special. People still want it and it kind of all of these things kind of perform on the basis of their own merits and not necessarily, you know, following the larger sort of macro trends in the auction market. By the way, I just looked it up and if you got on, apparently if you got on the early list for Philippe Du for simplicity, you could have one for around 34,000 bucks, which, you know, we all thought was bananas money back in the day.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

So yeah, there's no question that these, these are some of the most incredible watches in the world. I've been very lucky. I've seen probably see probably a dozen of these. Maybe a little shy of it. No, probably about a dozen of these in the metal, which is pretty crazy when you think about the percentage of the overall run, that is. But it's spectacular watchmaking. Like it's it's. I mean, Jack, I think you'd probably agree here. Like, this is, this is no nonsense watchmaking at its, at its best. And it's, it's kind of encouraging, I think, to see the interest in them. But to me, the craziest thing is until 2016, not a single one of these had appeared at auction. And I'd have to go run the numbers. I probably should have done it before we sat down to record, but, you know, we've seen probably a dozen of them, maybe 15 of them come up for sale over the last four years. Maybe a little less, maybe like 10, but like, not an insignificant number, despite the fact that, you know, he'd been making them since the year 2000 and it took 16 years for a single one to come up for sale.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, yeah. You know, you don't see a ton of them in the wild, you know, you just don't. I mean, even you go someplace like the gphg and it's not like every other wrist has to do for simplicity on it. And they are, you know, I mean, he set, he set the standard, I think, for, for independent watchmaking, for creating an absolutely meticulously, beautifully finished, extremely tastefully done time only watch. He also did something really valuable, which is show the next generation of independent watchmakers that it was actually possible. And he had a lot of company in terms of independent watchmaking. You know, back in the late 90s, the early 2000s, when the watch Internet was just breaking, there was a huge, huge, huge surge of interest in independent watchmaking because suddenly everybody could see this stuff. You know, you could. If you were just a sort of a rank and file, you know, a guy like me who just bought his first Seiko 5, you could, you could actually look at incredible high resolution pictures of DU for simplicities and crazy stuff like, you know, the early work from Vianney Halter and the first generation Ulysse Nardan freak, which is not, you know, quote unquote, independent watchmaking anymore. But it was back then and, you know, it was just, it seemed like a world of incredible, incredible possibilities. And I think that the fact that the Internet came along at the same time, that Internet had a lot. First of all, I think it had a lot to do with the way Internet. The Internet had a lot to do with the way independent watchmaking, you know, took off like a rocket. And I think that it also gave people a taste for it, a desire for something unique and a desire for something with, you know, the artist's imprint on It. And you look at the prices achieved by these Dufours, it's because they're Dufours, you know, I mean, which is not something that exists independent of their, you know, inherent qualities as objects. But there's a romance to watchmaking. We all love the idea of the genius toiling away in isolation and producing at uncertain intervals objects of unparalleled beauty. And that's like, you know, we were talking about stories before. That's the story you're part of when you have a simplicity.

[Danny Milton]

Yeah. As someone who doesn't have, you know, a ton of experience in this realm, it's one of the rare situations where, especially in the auction world, where it does the prices going up and being at this level somewhat makes sense. Whereas you often see watches come up for auction and the reaction is, I can't believe such and such watch is going for such and such price. Because at one point it was a mass produced watch that anybody could have, so on and so on. But this being sort of the exclusivity, the limited number produced, the fact that you don't see them, like you said, Stephen, the fact that 2016 was the first time one ever came up, you can see that if one were to come up, someone would want to jump on that. And it's so the craftsmanship that's associated with it, the reputation, the independent nature. I mean, it all, it all fits, you know, it's not something that you, you look at and you go, how could that be? You kind of look at it and go, huh? You know, that, that, that makes sense.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

That, that fits. Totally, totally agree. And we'll luckily get another chance to see the interest in Dufour, because we have this special piece coming up at Philips in November, part of this new series that Do4 is releasing to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the simplicity. We'll link that up in the show notes. We don't really need to talk about it now, but maybe in a little less than a month we'll have more Dufour news to share. With that, I want to take a turn here because we're starting to run a little bit low on time here, but as promised, I want the two of you guys to kind of catch us up on new Watch releases. So I feel like I keep saying this on the show. I'm sure everybody who's listening to this thinks I'm a broken record at this point, but, like, I keep waiting for things to slow down and they just aren't. The pace of this year is totally different than in Any previous year. And like you guys mentioned, I've been a little bit heads down working on the Hodinkee magazine. So I'm obviously paying attention, I'm reading stories, but I haven't had a chance to dig too deep into some of these. These pieces. So I thought this could be a good chance for you guys to catch me up. So what I'm going to do is we'll go through these releases and I want you guys to basically give me the elevator pitches on these watches. And not, not like you're trying to sell them to me, but like, you have like, you know, let's say 20, 30 seconds each to give me what you think are the most important things about these watches. Does that, does that work for you guys?

[Jack Forester]

Sure.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Let's start with the Omega Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary Watch. Maybe Danny, you want to. You want to kick this one off? Because I know, I know you wrote the watch up initially.

[Danny Milton]

Yeah, this one is just fun. I remember when I got the press release and I was just like, I read it and when I got to the actual fun part, I kind of lit up. I was like, oh, this is different. This is a. Obviously this is the Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary watch. It's basically the third Silver Snoopy edition, but this one has a silver dial and it's blue accents. But the most amazing and incredible thing about it is when you turn it over, it doesn't just have a display case back. It actually has sort of a mechanical animation to it in some way. So what's going on is Snoopy in his own ship is connected to the chronograph hand. So when you engage the chronograph, Snoopy takes a trip around the far side of the moon simultaneously. The Earth is also displayed on the back and that's connected to the running seconds hand. So when you turn the watch over, the Earth is constantly rotating and does a full rotation each minute. There is also some sort of metallicization process or metallization. Not exactly sure how to say it. Jack, I'm sure you'll be able to correct me where the moon and I saw a video of this. I haven't seen this watch in the metal yet. But the moon, the way that it has been crafted, has this sort of three dimensionality to it. So when you turn the watch, it's really an incredible thing. I encourage anybody. I don't know if you want to link up that video that Omega posted, but it's really something to see.

[Jack Forester]

Wow, that's quite an elevator pitch. We're in a big building.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, dude, I'm kind of ready to buy one of these, too.

[Jack Forester]

We just. We went from the lobby all the way up to the hundredth floor.

[Danny Milton]

The elevator got stuck.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I forgot.

[Jack Forester]

You pushed the hold button.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I also love this. I'm gonna go for this one. I love the idea of Jack criticizing Danny for being long winded here. That's a great one.

[Jack Forester]

Listen, the idea of me criticizing anybody for being verbose. Okay, that's fair.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Awesome. Jack, you got anything to add to that? I feel like that's a pretty good summation of this guy.

[Jack Forester]

I just want to. I want to tell a little story. Several years ago, well, quite a few years ago, my oldest son wanted to order a kind of expensive model starship. And I was kind of like, I don't know. I don't know, it looks kind of expensive. And he looked at me and said, with real feeling, dad, come on. The engines light up. And I was like, okay.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

You get it, right?

[Jack Forester]

And that's kind of. And that's how I feel about this Snoopy Speedmaster. I mean, Snoopy goes around in his little spaceship. What the hell more do you want? And the Earth goes around at the same time. I mean, okay, it's a complete nightmare from a sort of, you know, fine watchmaking precision standpoint. You shouldn't be sticking extra stuff on the chronograph train if you don't have to, but who cares? Snoopy goes around in a spaceship around the moon.

[Danny Milton]

Done.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

This week's episode is presented by Grand Seiko. One of the things that has long set Grand Seiko apart from other watchmakers is the way that the Japanese brand takes inspiration from nature. In particular, Grand Seiko's venerable seasons collection draws on the Japanese concept of seki, or the 24 seasons, which mark key natural milestones present in the passing of each year. For 2020, Grand Seiko has released two new special edition Seasons watches, both inspired by the Japanese concept of soko, or the end of autumn when the first frost arrives in the forest. The two watches pair different shades of sleek gray dials with bright green accents referencing the colors of the Arashiyama bamboo forest in Kyoto, which is at its peak each year during SoCo. One Watch features a silvery dial and rich green accents to illustrate the forest during the daytime, while the other watch has a deep slate gray dial and almost neon green accents to illustrate the forest during the nighttime. They're very much two sides of the same coin, though each has its own distinctive Charm. Both watches are powered by Grand Seiko's Special Spring Drive caliber 9R65. So you get a beautiful true sweeping seconds hand gliding across the dialogue, adding to the poetic nature of the watches. Each also comes paired with a stainless steel bracelet and a leather strap so you can style the watch how you'd like. For more about Grand Seiko and the pair of soco watches, visit grandseiko.us.com all right, let's get back to the show. Let's go to the next guy here. Something a little. A little more reserved. Let's go with the new Nomos Lambda models. The steel Lambda models. Jack, maybe you want to. You want to take this one to start?

[Jack Forester]

Yeah. This is both a design and a movement story. As is usually the case with Nomos. It is a beautiful movement finished to a very high standard in a, I think a beautifully executed case. A little bit on the large side for Nomos. I feel like they got a little bit of pushback about that in the comments. But, you know, this originally came out in a gold case and it was like a $20,000 watch or something. And you can get any. To me, anytime you can get the same quality movement in a $20,000 watch that you can get in a. What does this one go go for?

[Stephen Pulvirent]

7,500 bucks.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, I'm just. You'll bear with me, faithful listeners. I'm scrolling down to look at the price. Yeah, 7,500 bucks. You know, and it's a gorgeous piece of work from a real company with a real history. I love the kind of sunburst pattern on the. On the movement plate. And you know, like I said, anytime that you can get work this gorgeous from a movement perspective for, you know, less than half of what it costs you in a precious metal and like a kind of, you know, sort of just normal, well off person can afford it. I'm all for it. I don't know if it's gonna work for everybody's the only thing the. Because the bezel is so thin and because it's a little bit big for an Elmos. That could be, you know, kind of a sticking point for some folks. But 40.5 millimeters is not huge.

[Danny Milton]

No, that's true. I mean, I got to wear this a little bit and experience it and felt a little bit more like 42. And the. The lugs made it feel a little bit bigger than that. And I agree with the lack of bezel especially. I think I noted the white dial wears a little bigger. But for me, this is the sort of distilled Bauhaus design that Nomos is known for. In a lot of ways, the way that the dial is laid out, I think it's very, you know, the design is just very on point. But this is basically a third size in the line. They already had the larger 42 millimeter. They had a 39 millimeter. Now we've got this 40 and a half millimeter. And like Jack said, it brings it back sort of in line with, I think, what Nomos is known for, which is packing value. And whereas the, the former was sort of only in gold and upwards of $20,000, this is much more in line with what I think people love and expect from Nomos overall.

[Jack Forester]

I also, I have to have to say, you know, just to give. Give credit where it's due, the movement fills out the case really nicely. It's a 32, 32 millimeter movement, you know, sort of the standard size roughly for a hand wound Swiss mechanical watch. Movement is around 30 millimeters. So this is getting a little bit into almost pocket watch territory. I mean, you know, plus 2 millimeters. But it's a, it's a great fit to the case.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, overall, I've always liked the design of the Lambda. This is, this is interesting. And I think at this price point in the, in the, you know, seven to $8,000 range, it's in, it's an interesting offering because it's, it's obviously a premium over, over what most of NOMOS does, but you're not getting anywhere close to Lange territory. Like, they don't have to worry about that competition. It's kind of like, kind of splits the difference between quote, unquote, like a traditional Nomos and the entry level Lange pieces. All right, let's, let's go for something totally different here. I want to bring up the Blancpain 50 fathoms day date, desert edition. This watch, the moment I saw a picture of it, I think I may have audibly said, holy shit, it's such a cool looking piece. Maybe, Danny, you'll start us off here. What's the short version of this guy?

[Danny Milton]

Yeah, no, I think this is a desert dive watch. I mean, you don't ever see that. I think the backstory is amazing. I know that it has some kind of historical background of diving in Death Valley. I think that's amazing. I think the design of it, the sort of gradient, sunburst, sand effect dial, it's very retro stylized. And I've worn a few of these blancpains at the 43 millimeter size. And I don't think it really wears that large. It's felt pretty comfortable to me. And this thing just is sort of on its own in terms of its styling. And I would love to see this thing in the metal. I just think it just has this. It evokes a desert. And you look at it and you just go like, yeah, that makes sense. This should be called, you know, the desert, you know, edition. And it makes perfect sense to me, the Desert Diver.

[Jack Forester]

You know, there's a certain kinds of watches do certain kinds of things to certain kinds of people. Like, I feel like chronographs have the potential to bring out the worst in a watch designer in a way that no other complication does. There's like, it seem. People seem to be unable to resist adding just like that, one thing that it. That the design totally doesn't need. And dive watches. Dive watches really bring out the puritanical in people. You know, you look at a dive watch, you say to yourself, okay, dive watch. This is a purpose built instrument designed to fulfill a singular purpose. It must tick all of these boxes in order to conform to the international standard for dive watches. And anything, anything that is even remotely superfluous to the singularity of purpose detracts from the purity and integrity of the watch and makes it an exercise in falsehoods, lies, and marketing. A soulless contraption devised only to separate the foolish from their money. And, okay.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

You said so much in those two letters. Okay.

[Jack Forester]

I mean, you know, you go back and you look at dive watches from the 1960s and, you know, yes, they were purposeful. Yes, they were designed to fulfill a function. Yes, they were serious instruments. But people did, you know, owners and designers allowed themselves to occasionally have a little fun with them. And I actually really like the Desert Diver. I think that it's a really cool looking watch. I think that, I mean, look, this is all personal. This is, you know, personal. I mean, to me, a sort of, you know, chunky, retro style dive watch brings back a lot of pleasant memories. I think that this is successful from a design standpoint, of course. A desert diver, quote, unquote, is, you know, kind of a contradiction in terms. But the watch was made, if I remember the article correctly, was made in homage to a dive that took place in 1962 in what's called Devil's Hole, I believe, in Death Valley. So, you know, it was connected to a kind of an interesting scientific expedition. And beyond all that, I just like the sort of sandy gradient dial I like the whole conceit of a desert diver watch. And you know, like the, like the LCD watch I'm wearing right now, I think that this one is potentially a lot of fun. As long as you don't take as long, you don't take yourself too seriously and expect it to be something it's not.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah. All right, let's do, let's do one more here. I've got, I've got a couple listed but we're running short so we're do one more. We're going to go for the big gun to finish things off. Jack, I'm going to throw this one to you. The audemars Piguet code 1159 Grand Sonnerie Carillon supersonnerie. That is a mouthful for a non native French speaker like myself. And wow, like what a watch.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah, you know, this is. I wrote the article about this one and it reminded me just how few grand grand Petit Sonnery wristwatches there actually are and how few I've actually seen. I mean, you don't see all that many minute repeaters drifting around, honestly, unless you go to, you know, I mean, Patek Philippe had a big exhibition a few years back where they brought every single minute repeater that they had in their catalog to New York. And we got a chance to listen to those. I think the video is still up on the site. We can link out to it. So, you know, experiences like that are incredible. But I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times over the last 20, 25 years I've seen a wristwatch and you know, it's just a very rare occurrence. And AP has a long history of making these. Well, they have a long history of making wristwatch versions of the grandsonnerie, which, you know, the very first one was made by Philippe Dufour. And then AP got into the game and they have been in it more or less ever since. And they do it extremely well. I think I would. I mean there's five of these things that I think 677,000, you know, a pop with a dial by Anita Porsche, by the way, whose work I've been admiring for 25 years. You know, one of the best in the business and one of the people who helped put enamel dials for watches back on the, back on the map. And her work is enthusiastically collected by her fans and aficionados know the world over. And I think that it listen, this kind of thing, if you, if you love complicated watchmaking, you love chiming watches and you love A high art execution, top to bottom. And you can afford it. There's just nothing else like it in the world.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah. Danny, you've, you've, you have any thoughts on this guy?

[Danny Milton]

It's obviously. I read Jack's piece and it's so detailed. For me, this is just. It's beautiful.

[James Stacey]

I would love.

[Danny Milton]

This is another one, as usual, you know, given the circumstances of the way things are, would love to be able to see this in the metal. But I also think that, you know, say what you will about the code 1159, and I think people have said a lot of things that they will about the code 1159, but this seems to be a great vessel for a movement like this, as well as a canvas for the enamel work that's been done on the dial. And just judging by the rarity of the movements, the fact that AP has been so entrenched in doing this over at least the last, you know, 20 some odd years, it just seemed, you know, obviously you would assume at some point, you know, with them developing the new code 1159, that it would come into the watch. And I think it just is a great, A great package overall. And I think, you know, I would just love to hear the chime. That's me. That's my elevator pitch. Show me the chime.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, I, I agree with everything you guys are saying. I, I think Danny, in particular, you know, the, the idea that the code 1159 being a great canvas for utilizing complicated, interesting movements and then doing kind of like brilliant dial work, I think is an interesting idea and I think it's something we should probably talk about in the future. But, yeah, lots of good new stuff. Like I said, I think there are probably many more we could talk about, but people just have to tune in in future weeks. I'm excited. Heading into fall, I think we are far from the end of this. I think we're going to continue to see some big new releases, both the super high end and the more affordable end. And I'm excited for 2020 to kind of close out on some high notes.

[Danny Milton]

Yeah. If the silver Snoopy is any indication of the type of put a smile on your face releases that brands are going for toward the end of the year, then I'm all on board for that.

[Jack Forester]

I love that thing.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah.

[Jack Forester]

Snoopy goes around in a spaceship. He goes around in a spaceship.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

All right, well, we're going to finish on that. I hope we play. Play that sound bite over and over and over again in future episodes. I need that just like On a hot key. But thanks for doing this, guys. I really appreciate it. And Danny, I feel like we owe you an auction trip to Geneva.

[Danny Milton]

I'm gonna hold you to it, really.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Thanks, guys. And I'll chat with you next week.

[Jack Forester]

Thanks, Steven. Always fun. Bye, Danny.

[Danny Milton]

See you, Jack. See you, Stephen.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Bye, guys. And next up, I sit down with James and Cole to revisit my review of the Tudor Black Bay 58. Hey, guys. How you doing?

[James Stacey]

Yeah, pretty good. Not too bad.

[Cole Pennington]

What's up, Steven?

[Stephen Pulvirent]

We got. We got James here, we got Cole here. Gangs, gang's all here.

[James Stacey]

Oh, yeah, let's revisit A week on the wrist.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Let's do that. So we introduced this segment A Week on the Wrist revisited, talking to James about his week on the wrist with the Tudor Black Bay gmt. Super fun watch. Still really popular. And I think kind of the conclusion we came to was that that review held up pretty, pretty well. I don't think much has changed about your feelings about that watch, right, James?

[James Stacey]

No, not at all. Solid watch, Great, great functionality. Still doesn't really have any true competition. And I assume they're easier to buy now than when we published that review.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

So, yeah, it's a pretty, pretty awesome watch. So we're going to do something kind of similar today. We're actually going to revisit my week on the wrist with the Tudor Black Bay 58, since that watch has been getting a lot of play recently with the release of the Black Bay 58 Navy Blue, the second iteration of the BB58. So we'll talk about the new version kind of at the end here a little bit. But let's dig right into the review. Let's go right to the categories here. You know, the background of this watch quickly is that it was released at Baselworld 2018. People went absolutely nuts. This and the BBGMT were actually released at the same time, which is pretty astounding to think that Tudor dropped both of those watches not even like in the same span of time, but on the same day. It really took the idea of Tudor making a heritage inspired dive watch to kind of like its logical conclusion. This is essentially remaking the closest thing you can imagine to an actual just like vintage Tudor sub from the the 60s or 70s. People went crazy for it. Like I said, there were huge wait lists. I think at their peak, they were. They were over a year. I think they're down to, you know, a couple of months now, two, three months. But yeah, this was for a long time. Like, I would say this was the hot watch to get, you know, other than maybe if you set aside it's, it's older siblings at Rolex and maybe like nautilus and royal oak. Like other than those things which still have in many cases two to three year wait lists, this is one of the hottest watches of the last couple years. And it was really a pleasure to get to review it. It was a watch that I was excited by when I first saw it, which sometimes is the case, sometimes isn't the case. But once I got my hands on it, it was really something. I was excited to strap on my wrist and put through its paces for the categories. Let's start off with what we call the elevator pitch. So if you had to sell or explain this watch to somebody in 30 seconds or less, how would you do it? And for me it boils down to a couple simple things. I think it's, this watch is the closest thing you can buy on the market today to a vintage Tudor or Rolex Submariner. It's an amazing everyday watch that's built to the highest standards you can possibly imagine and it has a great in house movement all for a pretty reasonable and affordable price when it comes to a luxury, luxury watch that to me those are the main bullet points. If you know that, you know enough about this watch. What do you guys think? Did I leave anything out there?

[James Stacey]

No, I don't think so. I think it's a new Tudor that wears like an old Tudor.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah, what's new is old again.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I like that it's a new Tudor that wears like an old Tudor. I dig, I dig that. That's much, much more concise than me. You're getting out of the elevator faster than I am. Let's go to first thing. This, this is pretty self explanatory. What is the first thing you notice when you first see or hold this watch? To me it's the size. This, this watch, the profile and the size and the feel when you pick this up. You know, if you saw it just sitting in a, in a vitrine or something, you might not fully, fully appreciate it. But the moment you pick it up or put it on your wrist, the size and the profile of this, of this case are just really astounding. It's, it's so close to, to a vintage sub in a way that it like almost feels like a familiar old friend. Yeah, I don't know. What, what, what did you guys pick up on first there?

[Cole Pennington]

I think if I were like living on an island and we're not reading Things like Hodinkee and watch media. And I just saw the watch in front of me. The first thing I would think is, man, I can't tell when this was made. Could be made 20, 20, could be made 1960s, 50s. It's. It's anachronistic in. In that it's a modern watch, but, you know, you really, really don't know when. Can't peg it in time, you know?

[James Stacey]

Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, for me, it's the. It's the size. I mean, like, we've seen black base before. There's nothing revolution about this one. You know, if you get down to the details and you start to see there's no date and they've kind of reworked all of the proportions, but it's the case. Proportions. It's the fact that it's substantially thinner than a 41 millimeter. You know, obviously it's a couple millimeters smaller. I'm not sure the case width makes as big a difference as the lug to lug and the thickness, but it's definitely the proportions. Especially as soon as you have it in your hand, it just feels. Not so much that it feels smaller, just feels right where it needs to be.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, I think that's something that is worth digging into a little bit before we move on is that idea that it doesn't wear a small watch. I think some people see, like, oh, it's downsized from 41 to 39. Like, oh, it's a small dive watch. This watch doesn't wear particularly small. To me, it still wears like a. Like a hefty ish tool watch. I mean, granted, that's coming from somebody who's often wearing like a 36 millimeter 1016 explorer or like a 35 or 36 millimeter, like vintage Grand Seiko or something like that. But I don't know. I think this watch still has some, like, heft and chunk to it, but in a way that. That works. Like, it feels right on the wrist.

[James Stacey]

I think it still feels like a dive watch. It still feels like a sports watch. And, you know, I think, yeah, I think it's the right size for. For a dive watch. If you're going to go without the bezel and make something closer to 1016, I think you. You make the. The move quite a bit easier to something like 36 millimeters in terms of just wearability and dial size and legibility and the rest of it. Whereas this kind of splits the difference. I think that Rolex and Tudor, they understand that the sweet spot for a lot of this stuff is around 40, 41, 39, 40 for a lot of the submariners. But there's, you know, a lot of it. I think it's not so much what the case within, it's that the things are in balance, makes it, makes it wear properly while still being kind of. It has a nice weight to it, it has a bezel that's really great. It has good water resistance. So you're not taking a lot of sacrifices for the smaller size.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Let's go, let's go to historical nuggets. So, you know, digging into the history of this watch and all of the inspirations for this, I think some people see this and say, oh, it's a remake of the original Tudor dive watch. It's a remake of an old school Tudor. And I think it's worth pointing out that that's not the case. It's kind of a mashup of a bunch of different bits of Tudor design language and reinterpretations of that design language. So if you put it next to a big crown, which we, we did in the review, you can see the photo there. We'll link to the review. Obviously, like, the bezel is very similar. Granted, it's got the gilt tones instead of the silver tones, which we'll talk about, but it's got that red triangle. It's roughly marked out the same way. Fonts are pretty similar, however, and it has no crown guards on the case. Cases are pretty similar in size, however. It has snowflake hands, which didn't come around until the 70s. It has straight text and a shield logo on the dial instead of the rose logo and curved text at six o'. Clock. So it's kind of a mix of these different inspirations from Tudor's history. And I think you can kind of look at this watch in certain ways as sort of like a one watch history lesson on Tudor. Like you can kind of pick it apart and trace all these things back and build yourself a nice little timeline building from, from the original Tudor divers in the 50s all the way up to the, the Black Bay from 2012 and then on to what they're doing today.

[James Stacey]

I would agree. I mean, I don't have that much to add to it. I think it's, it's kind of a blending of what they're up to now and what they've been up to for a long time.

[Cole Pennington]

I would add that the country musician Sam Hunt does wear one of these watches. So that's an interesting historical Tidbit. Interesting.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Up next, let's. Let's go with best design choice here. And I'm going to throw to you guys first on this because I have some pretty strong feelings and I don't want to fully, fully taint the conversation with them. So maybe let's go. Cole. And then James, what do you think was the best design choice made here?

[Cole Pennington]

I am not as articulate in talking about design as you are, so I'll keep this short and sweet. I love that they kept the red triangle. They included that. I think that little pop of color on what's otherwise, you know, black and gilt is. Is cool. And it's. It's very throwbacky and. And I dig that. And I think that could have gone wrong. Like, people talk about the. The cold tones. I know we'll talk about this later or whatever. With the cold tones and the new navy blue one, I think the character of the original BB58, a lot of it does come from the red triangle.

[James Stacey]

For me, it's the size of the hands. You know, I think it's also something that. I don't think it's unfair for me to say that in the past, Rolex has gotten this wrong when they change the case size of a watch, and then they just don't really thread the needle the way they should with the hands. If you think about that generation of the. The Explorer, where the hands were short when they first went to 39 millimeters, and they seem seemingly. They. They seem to keep the hand size from the 36. I think the fact that they. Obviously you have to.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

You.

[James Stacey]

You're forced to make a new dial and, and I haven't, like, taken a caliper to the markers and that sort of thing, but I think the fact that they maintain the same sort of balance that you have in the other kind of sub lineage, despite dropping down in case size, which could be. You know, sometimes it's the kind of thing where it takes them a little bit of while, a little while to get it right. I think they got it right the first time. Where you still get that really serious legibility. The hands make it all the way out to the minute markers, but they aren't too fat. They don't take up too much dial space. There's still a lot of negative space, especially with a black dial. That's crucial. So I think they did well with it.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Great. Yeah. I'm gonna go. I totally agree with you there. And I'm gonna go also with something on the. On the dial which is the, the gilt printing. I think the choice to make this a quote unquote, like gilt dial watch is a smart one. I'm pretty lucky that I have owned both matte and gilt vintage Rolexes. And I didn't really get the appeal of paying more money for a gilt dial outside the idea of like, obviously it's rarer and quote unquote, like more collectible. But in terms of actual practical benefit, I didn't get the appeal of a gilt dial watch until I owned one. There's something just so like deep and rich and charming about them versus a matte dial with the white printing. Something softer. It's, it's, it's a different experience. And I like, you know that here you can get into essentially a gilt dial sub for, you know, 10% of the price of what it would cost you to get into a vintage gilt dial sub. And I think if this watch had, you know, this, you know, kind of mostly black color scheme with white printing, I don't know that it would feel as warm and as charming as it does this way. I know that this is, you know, the guilt. The amount of guilt on this watch is a point of controversy with some people. I addressed that in the review. Some people think this watch has too much guilt. Maybe the bezel shouldn't have been, maybe the hands. You know, there's, there's, there's definitely a needle to thread here. And some people think they did, some people think they didn't, which, which we can talk about. But for, for my money, I think the, the basic premise of going guilt here was, was a smart choice.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah, I think guilt makes the watch and I like the gilt better than the new one as well. I think that the guilt is exactly what makes this watch really cool. Personally.

[James Stacey]

Yeah, I think the use of guilt is great here. It is absolutely not to my taste. I don't, I don't like two tone. I don't like guilt. I do think it's a, it's a lot to have it on the bezel as well. But I don't think that it's. I think it's only seems like a lot when you look at ones, the vintage stuff that, that isn't colored that way as, as a product in and of itself as a modern thing where they got to do kind of what they wanted. I don't think they made any mistakes by making a black and, and you know, with the guilt, the kind of gold accents it also certainly they didn't have any trouble selling it. So I think they did a good job. I think they did just a fine job with it.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, for, for you, if they had gone gilt dial but not made the markings on the bezel gold, if they had left those kind of that, you know, basic kind of like silvery steel aluminum color, would. Would that have been a positive change or a negative change for you?

[James Stacey]

Probably neither. Like I think the watch, as much as I like the watch, it was never really on my radar because of the guilt.

[Cole Pennington]

Strong standards.

[James Stacey]

The blue one certainly fixes that. But at this point, like, you know, once you've been in this a certain amount of time, like you could, you can basically just be as picky as you want. And the only real cost to me is I didn't have to spend four grand on a watch, which is okay. Certainly it's a gorgeous watch. I think, like I said, I think they did a great job with it. But as far as my tastes go, yeah, I don't, I don't, don't really have any. I haven't, I have yet to develop a taste for the sort of guilt attributes or, or two tone and that sort of thing.

[Cole Pennington]

I'm actually similar to you, James. Like I never, I'm a Seiko guy, vintage Omega tool watch guy. Like guilt was never on my radar. Especially like guilt subs. However, this is the one watch that changed that. Like this is my daily wear watch and I use it like a tool watch and it has guilt, but it doesn't bother me. Like I think guilt signals opulence. Luxury, the context of it is no longer like it was in mid century Rolex. Now gilt appears on more luxury watches. So I think that kind of throws you off. But if you kind of shed that and just ignore it, it becomes a usable tool watch too, just the same.

[James Stacey]

Oh, without a doubt. Like I said, it's more just a question of developing that taste and I haven't yet. A couple years ago I would have said I felt the same way about gold watches in general. And now I adore gold watch, gold watches. So, you know, give me time to change my mind. I could come around on it.

[Cole Pennington]

Change my mind.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Perfect. Speaking of changing, let's. Let's go with that for our next category. What you would change here? Maybe, maybe we'll start with James on this one. If you could change one thing about this watch to make it either better or more to your taste, either way, what, what would you change?

[James Stacey]

Yeah, I would do, I would do without the guilt. Quick, quick answer. Based on our last discussion, we don't have to go probably a lot deeper into it, but I think, I think, I think it would look really good and a little bit more modern and I don't think that, that it should replace the guilt. But I think that a black one with, with kind of a white silver scheme would also be really rad.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Nice. Cole, how about you?

[Cole Pennington]

I will throw out a sort of unpopular opinion. Like, for a long time I hated snowflake hands. Like, I couldn't stand that they didn't point to something interesting. And I know, you know, I know the history behind him. But like, I hate. Unless it's. I don't like an arrow on like something angular and then flat on the other side. Hour hand flat, minute hand angular. So that bothered me a lot. So what I would change is I would go to Mercedes hands. However, I will say when, like at 6:00 clock or 12:30 when it lines up. Snowflake sword. It is. It's just fantastic. K Magnifique. But other than that, like I would rather have. Aside from those two times per day or maybe okay, 9:15 or quarter to three. But aside when, when everything's not in line, I think the snowflake hands are. Man, they take some getting used to. So I would go Mercedes, if I could change something on here, go back to the original, give me some continuity instead of, you know, jumping around in time.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Okay, that's fair. Yeah. For me, I've gone back and forth on this a lot. I think I'm going to go somewhere with James here and say I would swap the gilt bezel for a non guilt bezel. I like the guilt on the dial. I think I would go gilt dial, non gilt bezel. Looking at the watch side by side, you know, which I'm doing right now with an original Tudor big crown. I don't know, there's something. It helps offset the dial more. It helps it pop. I don't know exactly what it is, but I think that would be, that would be my thing. The only other thing I would consider is, and we'll talk about this in a second as well, I would make the bracelet with more micro adjustments. The Tudor bracelets have the Tudor bracelet that is on this watch because the Pelagos bracelet's obviously different. But the black bay bracelet has three micro adjusters. I think it needs five. Personally, I have a really hard time getting this bracelet to a size that is comfortable for my wrist. And this is something that in the review, I said that I think you need to buy this watch on the bracelet. It's available on a bracelet, on a fabric strap or on a leather strap. I said that if you don't buy it on the bracelet, you're kind of doing it wrong. I stand behind that, but with the caveat that you should also buy either a fabric or a leather strap for it or wear it on one that you already have. I, a couple weeks ago, swapped my. I own a Tudor Black Bay 58 now. You know, spoiler alert. I was going to bring that up at the end, but I own a black Bay 58. I wear it all the time. I was wearing it on the bracelet for the first few months and I just. I've taken links out, added links in, moved the micro adjusters around for whatever reason. Like, I can't quite dial this bracelet in to exactly the right size for me. I can get it to where it's like 90% comfortable, but not 100%. And so I swapped it onto a fabric strap and I love it. I've actually been wearing the watch more now on the strap. I think it looks great on the strap. I'm excited for when the weather cools off to put it on, like a beautiful tan leather strap like a lot of folks do with vintage subs. Yeah. I think, I think maybe changing the bracelet would. Would be one way they could improve this watch.

[Cole Pennington]

So you didn't put on any extra pounds during the quarantine thing that kind of filled out your wrist some more and made it fit better.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I. I definitely have, but it hasn't changed how. How anything fits. You know, might. Might have to get some new. Some new pants. But the watch bracelet is unchanged.

[Cole Pennington]

One thing that no one brought up, which I know everyone loves to talk about, is the faux rivets on the bracelet. No one said they would change that. Oh, yeah, I actually just don't care. Like, I don't care whatever, you know.

[James Stacey]

I couldn't care less.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jack Forester]

Same.

[James Stacey]

I see that comment all the time and I can't even reply to it. Like, if you're, if you're that picky about something, it's also because I guess I'm not a bracelet guy. Like, I would buy this watch on the bracelet, probably pop the bracelet off and just put it on a NATO. But yeah, I can't imagine being like, I love this so much. Except for these little dots on the bracelet. Those. Those ruin the whole thing for me. I'm not at that level of. I guess maybe, maybe, maybe it's like a guilt. The guilt thing bugs me enough, but the rivets don't. I don't know. Everybody's brain's a little different, but I can't get behind that as being a deal breaker for a watch.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I guess maybe it fits into the same thing with this, like, faux Tina. Right. Like, there are certain people who just don't like anything that references something that was once functional, that is now purely aesthetic. And, like, I understand that impulse. Like, believe me, I am enough of a purist about most things in my life that, like, I am. I am very sympathetic to that. Kind of like drawing a line in the sand over something arbitrary. I think anyone who knows me would. Would agree with that. But I don't know, maybe it's. Maybe it's because I like vintage bracelets and I'm just used to seeing it. But, like, I'm with you guys.

[James Stacey]

Like, you know, if this is. If this is the. If you don't like vintage reissue throwback dive watches, this isn't the watch for you.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah, it's simple as that.

[James Stacey]

We can suggest other watches.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, that's true.

[James Stacey]

We can. Just other watches for you. But I mean, like, they. They set out to essentially remake a watch from 1958, but with modern touches that followed their, like, current brand DNA. And that includes rivets on the bracelet. And that might just mean it's not the right one. But, yeah, I'm with Cole. It's a. It's a non issue for me. I wouldn't notice it if I own the watch.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah. All right, we're going to do two more categories, then we're going to wrap things up, and then we'll talk about the Black Bay 58 Navy Blue. So the next category is going to be what we call branded. So if you were going to challenge another brand to make a watch like this, their sort of version of this watch, who would it be and what would you want them to make? And for me, the answer is pretty, pretty simple. I would love Omega to do a Seamaster 300 in this style. A Seamaster 300, that's not 41 millimeters, that's not quite as thick. Maybe that's, like, toned down a little bit. I know they did one as part of the trilogy set that I think would get us most of the way there. But yeah, I would. I would love to see Omega release a competitor to this because I also think. I think it would sit price wise between the Black Bay 58 and a Rolex Submariner, you know, you've got. The Black Bay 58 is a little over $3000. The Rolex Submariner is just a hair under $8000. I think Omega could do something in the like $6000 to $6500 range, and I think it'd be really compelling. I think they could kind of own that space. For people who say, like, well, I've got a little bit more money to spend than the Tudor. I don't necessarily want to spend. You know, after taxes, you know, you're looking at almost eight grand or almost nine grand on the, the Rolex. So like, let's, let's find something somewhere in the middle. And I think Omega could really just like crush this. I think they'd absolutely knock the ball out of the park. What, what do you guys think for this one?

[Cole Pennington]

Is that how people. Is that how people buy watches though? Say, like, I have a little more money than the Tudor. I would go watch first. Like, I. But anyway, I mean, that's not, that's not totally to the point. I agree with you though. Something. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have it be driven by price, but I would be have it. It would be driven by position. For me, the, the brands that I think I would love to see make something like this. I would love to see JLC make something like this. They did this ladies watch the dolphin. They did the barracuda and the dolphin, and they're totally forgotten. They were kind of like the mid century dive watches the JLC did. The dolphin was this ladies watch and it was smaller, but I would love to see like a 39 mil rendition of that because you're. And, and also that would come in a lot less than a lot of other JLCs. It really is. It's a solid piece. In addition to that, like the same kind of category. And I'm gonna pronounce this wrong, so please go easy on me in the comments. And also if you guys know the correct pronunciation, correct me. Favre Leboa. Favre Labua.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Favre Luba.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah, exactly. That's it.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Is that right, James? That's the one right there.

[James Stacey]

Favre Luba. That's how I would say it, but I could tell you if it's right or wrong.

[Cole Pennington]

Favre Luba. They made the deep blue, so they made this monochromatic deep blue from the 60s that has a crosshair dial that kind of gives me like the elegant tool watch mid century vibes. And I would love to see that be reproduced to the same degree that this BB58 is. So. Yeah, not, not totally mainstream, but I think the idea of a handsome recreation of a mid century dive watch could, could really work for these two brands, huh?

[Stephen Pulvirent]

How about you, James?

[James Stacey]

Yeah, I mean my, mine would be Blancpain. I think, I think that they've, they've been, they've been coming so close a couple times they, they're like, they're in, they're playing the right game. But if you look at something like the Barracuda, oddly enough also use the same name as spelled with a K. But this was a, you know, a 40 millimeter LE at 500 pieces. It's one that people don't really talk about, but like if they, if they had taken that inspiration and then a year or two later made a series steel 40 millimeter or 38 millimeter 50 fathoms that still has the ceramic or the sapphire bezel, but none, like I would go no date, none of the tan lume. Like just make, make the basic one. And this one was $14,100. I think if they really wanted to, if they really wanted to bring some people to their brand, you make this for 8500 bucks with a really good like, like an 1151 or whatever the no date version of an 1151 movement is. So something with like a big power reserve and a bunch of other like Blancpain Omega derived technology in the movement. And then you just make it like a matte black dial, that dope bezel work really hard to make it thin and 200 meters water resistance and then just be very chill on how much text you put on the dial. And no, the Barracuda was perfect because it just says Blancpain 50Fathoms Automatique. It doesn't need anything more than that. I think that if, yeah, I think if they literally just took the, the BB58 philosophy and applied it to a 50 fathoms, they'd be so close. I think they came really close with the, like, we came really close to essentially making this watch with rle, you know, a little bit of a different case style, an entirely different bezel. I think that watch has already been made, so we don't have to talk about that one. It's perfect. Man, would I kill for one of those. But yeah, I think if you, if you basically, if you imagine a less vintage inspired 50Fathoms Barracuda, I think that's where we would land. And if, and if they really wanted to, I think they might have to take A hit on it. They're a big, big company, part of a big brand. So I think they could, they could form a loss leader to take some mind share away from the brands that really kill at about eight grand. We know who we're talking about there with the Submariner. But if they priced it really aggressively, they could move enough models to make that, that make sense.

[Cole Pennington]

Me gusta mucho. And also, isn't it pronounced blank? Pain.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, that's the, that's the official, that's the official pronunciation, yeah.

[James Stacey]

Two, two words. Yeah.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

All right, so to wrap, to wrap this section of this up. Let's, let's talk about. I have a simple question for you guys. Could this be one watch for life? Could somebody buy this watch, own this watch, never buy another watch and be very happy? James?

[James Stacey]

Yeah, my guess is a lot of people have, whether they're watch guys. I also think this is probably the kind of watch where like if you were really into watches about 10 or 15 years ago and then for whatever reason kind of dipped out of it, if you popped back in and by chance your ad or whatever had one, I feel like this is the one you would grab. It's gonna feel like a dive watch that was the right size from 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And I feel like you could buy it. You already know what TUDOR is, so like you don't need a bunch of explanation on that. And then you just wear it and you do so without, without ever going on Google and typing in Black Bay 58 and reading a Week on the Wrist or something like that. Yeah, I think these are, these sorts of watches, which is what Rolex really, Rolex and Tudor really appeal, really do so well at, is making a watch that like a well heeled non watch enthusiast might pick up and wear for like 40 years and then give to a kid or put in a sock drawer. And that's how we get all those stories from, you know, watches from the 60s and 70s where that actually happens. And I think that's still true to today. You could definitely see like, you know, someone who knows what they want, a water resistant watch that they don't ever have to take off, but they also don't really have to worry about wearing to the office or whatever they do after work or on the weekends. And I think this could absolutely be that sort of watch. The same way people treated submariners, you know, before they became insanely collectible things.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

I, I totally agree with you. I, I don't think I have anything to add there. I Completely agree. Cole. Where. Where are you at?

[Cole Pennington]

That's literally the same. Same answer. I. I will say though, like, one thing that's interesting is that I don't see many out in the wild when I think I should. I think it is definitely the watch, so exactly the thing. Like, like James said, the same idea as a sub, but just for people who are either younger and don't have the cash to throw around yet. Um, but it can easily be a one watch for life. And also one. One thing to note is that it has the same sterile case back as a sub or Rolex. So you can engrave something, give it to your whatever, children, wife, husband, something like that. Like, it really can fill that role of the occasion. Watch it. It's good because it, it kind of satisfies watch people, non watch people, people looking for a good deal and does it all really well. It's a watch for anyone and could be the one watch to rule them all.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

There we go. Perfect. Well, before we move, move over to talking about the new navy blue version of the BB58, which is kind of the coda to all of this. You know, I mentioned it earlier in the segment, but I actually ended up buying one of these watches, you know, a couple months after or I guess right, right around the same time that we published the review. And I'm super happy with it. You know, I've been wearing it for, for the better part of six months now on and off. Wear it a couple times a week. And I think, you know, I can say with a little bit of hindsight now, like, I feel like my review pretty, pretty well captured my thoughts on this. You know, whether. Whether they're right or wrong is a different story. But, you know, having. Having worn the watch and rereading what I said about it back then, I feel pretty good about it. And I mean, Cole, I know you, you own one of these as well. You know, has. Has your opinion on the watch changed substantively since you. Since you bought it versus what you thought about it beforehand?

[Cole Pennington]

Actually, yes, believe it or not, it has. When, when I bought it, like I said, I couldn't get over Snowflake hands. Also, I will say that I'm pretty. Like if everyone loves something, my initial knee jerk reaction is to be skeptical of it. You know, like, like it like Rolex or whatever. I'm like, interesting. So I was, you know, 50, 50 bought it, and now I absolutely love it, cherish it, adore it. We'll wear it forever. We'll hand it down one day. And see no flaws in it at all. I'm completely blind to all the flaws that it has that. That I once maybe thought, you know, so. So, yeah, I would say that. That having it on the wrist made me fall in love with it even more. And I. All that skepticism just melted away the second it got on the wrist.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Well, let's. Let's quickly chat about the. The BB58 Navy Blue. So this watch came out early July and kind of like took the watch Internet by storm. Tudor smartly, I think, kind of like seeded them out there with people the day they. They dropped. So I don't know about you guys, my Instagram feed was basically nothing but navy blue, black Bay 58s for a couple of days, which was cool. A little bit exhausting, but I think ultimately a strong move for tutor James and I both got to see them in the metal. James wrote two great stories for the site, both of which we'll link up in the show notes here. So maybe let's start with James here. You know, obviously the big news here is the watch is blue. You know, it has a blue bezel, it has a blue dial. Everything is silver tone. No more guilt. But then, as far as specs go, the watch is the same. It's the same size, same movement, same everything. So for you, what does this watch bring to the table that sets it apart from its predecessor?

[James Stacey]

I mean, the color. There's not a lot there. It basically gives you an option if you didn't care for the other one, which is why there's cars with minute differences and also just different colors on cars. And there's lots of think about how many versions of the same watch like Omega will produce in terms of color and dial and gold and not gold and the rest of it. And I think this is just something that Tudor does very slowly. They're not having any trouble selling these. They probably wish they could make some more or make sure that more people could get them as far as demand goes. And my guess is that that'll hold with the blue one. But there's going to be a group of people who wanted something. Maybe they already own 1, 5, 10 other black dial dive watches, and they wanted an alternative. And that's certainly where I would land myself. I have a couple black dial dive watches that I'm okay with. I like them. The longer I'm in this fascination, the more I really started to appreciate color. And blue, I think, is like one step adjacent from black. Like, I'm talking oranges and silvers and brighter stuff. But I think this blue works super well and it maintains like all of the praise we had for the, the, the black version over the past 40 minutes or whatever is, is because it's such a versatile thing. And I think they change the color without changing its versatility. If you still wanted to have this as your one watch, blue works just fine. Unless you're a type, type of guy that really hates blue. Right. At which point there's a black one. So I think that's what the blue one does.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think what surprised me most seeing it in the metal was after having seen the press photos, there was a couple hour period there between when the embargo lifted and we'd seen pictures and when the one that was sent to me showed up in the mail. And the blue is a particularly versatile shade of blue. I think it really changes in the light nicely. You put it under bright sunlight and it looks blue. It looks like bright. You're just walking around the house inside like, you know, normal indoor lighting and like, it really does have a more navy blue look to it. And I think you can get away with, with wearing it in a way where, like, people aren't going to be like, oh, my God, look at that blue watch. I think it just like looks like a great, great dive watch.

[James Stacey]

Yeah, I think it's chill. I think it's super handsome. It's also being a blue watch with a blue dial.

[Jack Forester]

Sorry.

[James Stacey]

Being a blue watch with a blue bezel really changes the way that it takes straps. If you've had blue watches that don't have a matching bezel, maybe it's a steel bezel, maybe a black bezel. I mean, these things, the black one is a strap monster to begin with. You can put anything on it and they rock. And I think the blue even more so. You know, I live in jeans and denim, you know, fulfilling my Canadian identity. And I, you know, this is, this is kind of the, the chambray option within the lineup.

[Cole Pennington]

Good analogy, good analogy. I think I like that. I was, to be quite honest, I was just a little tired. I was thinking, like, how can a one color change, you know, set the Internet on fire and everyone, you know, posting about it. And then I remembered back when, like when I was a teenager, I collected all the color variations of the Seiko Monster. Like, I was super stoked to get the black monster in the mail then the orange monster. So I would imagine for people now, you know, with a little bit more money and a little bit more refinement, and nuanced taste. This could be a series just to collect all of the watch, all of the Tudor Black Bay 58s, you know, so like I get the excitement now if I look backwards to when I was doing the same thing, buying one watch and one color and then getting super excited about the same watch in another color. So I, I get it now. But it's just a color change. Sure. But it does mean something. It gets people excited and, and I'm on board with that, you know.

[James Stacey]

Yeah. I mean the other thing to consider is like, like quote unquote boring watches. We all know this. We know them really well. Boring watches that are really well made. That's what sells, right? Is there an orange dial Submariner? No. Do you think it's because Rolex forgot that orange is out there or yellow? No, it's because they did some sort of little study and nobody in their office wanted one. They just said, well, I already have a black one. It's perfect.

[Cole Pennington]

There's one guy who wants you.

[James Stacey]

I mean an orange sub might be, might be pretty cool.

[Cole Pennington]

It would be.

[James Stacey]

But lots of other brands make it. But I don't, I don't like. I think there's a, there's a level of like considered stoicism that you can even simply constitute as, as being a bit boring or bland or mundane that, that makes it a square kind of down the middle of the road product. I think that's what, that's what makes them both an enthusiast product and a wide market product is that blue is special because it's, it's just, it's, it's not black.

[Cole Pennington]

Yeah.

[James Stacey]

It's not black.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Yeah. I think you've both touched on this. But I think one of the interesting things here is that it shows that Tudor is building out the Black Bay 58 as a product category. Like it's no longer that. The Black Bay 58 is a one off product that sits within the Black Bay lineup. There are now, there is now a Black Bay 58 collection. And I'm curious to see where this goes over time. I think, you know, we've talked about this and I know, you know, folks in the collecting community, there's been lots of chatter about this, about whether or not the BB58 was a one off similar to like maybe the P01. Right. Like, is this a, a one off heritage kind of throwback product and eventually it'll get phased out. It's only going to exist in one model. It's a limited thing. And then Tudor is going to keep on making the 41 millimeters. I think Tudor is going to keep making the 41 millimeter Black Bay indefinitely. But I think it's interesting to see that they're building this as kind of a parallel product line. And I also think it's worth noting that the black bay blue was the next black bay to be released after the original black bay, the burgundy one. So it'll be interesting to see if some other things, like, I don't know, a full on two tone steel and gold model, a version with a steel bezel, which I know James would love. Like, are we going to start seeing more and more iterations on this over the next couple years? Who knows if this will get built out. But I think it's interesting to see that they're at least moving in that direction.

[James Stacey]

Yeah, they must have a lot of data too, about every, every one of the 41 that they made. They. They know what, where it went and what colors were kind of good in what market. Like you said to me, I would adore one. Give me the black or the blue with a steel bezel. I just love the way steel bezels take scratches. It just. If you, if your plan is to keep the watch really like for a long time, a steel bezel kind of has a few scratches and you're kind of like, and this isn't as nice. And then it has a ton of scratches and it's perfect. And I think that's what I always like about them. It's what I like. The Explorer IIS and Daxa sub 3 hundreds and that sort of thing is they have these nicely exposed steel bezels which come beautifully finished, either mirrored or if you're with the Rolex, that incredibly complex vertical graining that you know, can't be. It shows every scratch forever, but once you get enough scratches, it's just. It makes it more yours. And I like the way a steel bezel looks.

[Cole Pennington]

I'm still waiting for a P01 in blue. Actually.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

That'S a. That is a different podcast altogether, Cole, and one that we should do. But that, that is a different show. The P01 show.

[James Stacey]

You're waiting for a P01 in blue and I want a blue. A BB58 blue GMT with an orange GMT hand.

[Cole Pennington]

Caribbean.

[James Stacey]

I don't think either of us are getting our way.

[Jack Forester]

Yeah.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

All right. When Tudor calls for the focus group, we'll know who not to send to Geneva for this one. But thanks for doing this, guys. This was awesome. This is a fun watch to revisit. Not least of all because I have one on my wrist right now. But yeah, Appreciate you doing this. And we'll have to think about what review to dig into next.

[James Stacey]

Oh, we've done a few of them, so I'm sure we can find one. But yeah, it was a treat to be on.

[Stephen Pulvirent]

Awesome. Thanks, guys. Sa.