HODINKEE Lands In Japan & Ming Thein Of Ming Watches

Summary

HODINKEE Lands In Japan & Ming Thein Of Ming Watches

Podcast: HODINKEE Podcasts
Host(s): Stephen Pulvirent (A), Jack Forster (F), Ben Clymer (D), Enri (C), Dave O’Harrell (E)
Guests: Ming Thein (B), Praneeth Raj Singh (Ming Watches)
Date: November 25, 2019

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Episode Overview

This episode is split into two distinct segments:

1. The Launch of HODINKEE Japan — The HODINKEE team gathers in Tokyo after launching their first international edition, HODINKEE Japan, reflecting on what it means for the brand and the global watch community.
2. Interview with Ming Thein of Ming Watches — A detailed conversation with Ming Thein (founder of the independent brand MING) and Praneeth Raj Singh, exploring the journey from watch enthusiast to brand founder, design philosophy, challenges, and the importance of collaboration in modern watchmaking.

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Segment 1: HODINKEE Lands In Japan

Theme:
Celebrating the official launch of HODINKEE Japan, the team discusses its significance, the Japanese watch market, the intersection of cultures, and their collective passion for horology.

Key Discussion Points

Setting the Scene in Tokyo

• The team records at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya, between launch events welcoming both industry insiders and local enthusiasts.
• Stephen details the surreal excitement:

  "It's been pretty surreal... what it means emotionally to see HODINKEE in Japanese in another market with a new global team for the first time. It's a pretty special thing." — Stephen (01:01)

Introducing the Team

• Enri (COO): Described as crucial to day-to-day operations (03:49).
• Dave O’Harrell (Video Producer): Key player in shaping HODINKEE's visual style (04:08), surprised by the “curated and high level of taste” in Japan (04:31).

The Experience of Going International

• Ben Clymer reflects on expansion:

  "To see this brand that I started 11 years ago for fun to be handled with such kind of deft touch here in Japan is pretty wild." — Ben (06:24) "It just felt like the right time, the right market with the right partner." — Ben (06:57)

Collaboration and Cultural Integration

• The Japanese team's initiative and creativity stand out (08:55).
• The blending of HODINKEE's ethos with Japanese precision and style is seen as a natural fit:

  "No detail is overlooked... how curated and... how much thought is put into everything the Japanese do." — Dave (12:42)

The Unique Japanese Watch Scene

• The group notes the nuances in Japan’s collector community:

  "There is an entire watch culture here in Japan that is much deeper than what we've been able to study from the U.S." — Enri (13:42)

• Tokyo is recognized as a vintage watch hub; influential brands have historical ties with Japan’s market (15:16).

Notable Segment: Wrist Check

Each HODINKEE team member and their Japanese colleagues share their "watch of the day" for the launch:

• Ben: Philippe Dufour Simplicity (17:33)

  "Everyone respects the Simplicity, and it just felt right tonight." — Ben

• Enri: Grand Seiko SBGW 252 (18:30)
• Dave: Cartier Tank (20:00)
• Stephen: Vintage 1965 Grand Seiko (20:17)
• Editor-in-chief (Sekiguchi-san): Cartier Santos (21:18)
• Web Producer (Wadasan): Breguet Marine (21:38)

Quote Highlight:

"I'm wearing a Cartier Tank because, you know, ultimate dress watch. I'm wearing a suit as well, and I don't normally wear a suit, so I figure let's just keep it classic today." — Dave (20:00)

Important Timestamps:

• [05:23] — Reflections on launching HODINKEE Japan
• [12:42] — The Japanese approach to detail
• [13:42] — Japanese collector culture
• [17:33] — Wrist check roundtable

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Segment 2: Ming Thein of Ming Watches

Theme:
A deep dive into the philosophy, development, and unique approach that has propelled Ming Watches from enthusiast sketches to prize-winning recognition.

Key Discussion Points

From Enthusiast to Brand Founder (00:01, 22:44)

• Ming shares starting as a watch enthusiast and collector, constrained by what he could afford or find, he began designing on paper.
• His early sketches taught him to challenge every design element, asking:

  "Do you still like it two or three years later?" — Ming (00:52, 29:58)

The Long Road to Distinctive Design (26:31, 34:09)

• Ming and Jack outline a two-decade collaboration that forged an instantly recognizable "MING" design language.
• Design evolution is principle-driven:

  “We design according to a set of principles... It’s been described before as Art Deco meets Tron.” — Ming (34:42, 35:04)

• Watches are composed like photographic images: hierarchy of details, subtractive composition; complexity only if it serves a purpose.

The Influence of Photography (37:16–38:18)

• Ming’s photography career sharpened his compositional and aesthetic eye; technical skills are always in service of the overarching concept.

  “The hardware, the techniques, the processes, they always must be subservient to the end concept.” — Ming (38:18)

• Design is an act of inclusion, but Ming’s approach is reductionist, seeking “a lot of integrity from a design point of view.”

Experimentation and Business Reality (44:36, 51:34)

• The journey from custom commissions with Oxen Junior to launching a brand:

  “After we, several of us founders, went through that process... we said, 'Okay, maybe there's something in here.'” — Ming (50:38)

• The first batch of watches was almost a personal project—prepared to use them as “Christmas gifts for the next 25 years” if they didn’t sell.
• Rejecting up to 70% of components in pursuit of quality:

  “We rejected 60, 70% of all the components.” — Ming (51:24)

Designing for Sustainability and Modularity (52:46, 58:24)

• Early products were engineered for scale, repeatability, and service, not just creative expression.
• The selection of suppliers was painstaking, evolving with each series to improve engineering and finishing.

Transparency, Collaboration, and Counter-Trend Thinking (64:02)

• Ming is candid about his model:

  "We don't make watches ourselves. We're not watchmakers. The reality is, without all the partners that we have to execute them, the watch doesn't exist… And I think that's maybe a different approach to watchmaking." — Ming (63:07)

• Core suppliers and collaborators are openly credited; eschewing the modern trend of everything “in-house” for an open, partnership-driven approach.
• Transparency is a virtue extended to customers—a philosophy rooted in being a “watch guy” first.

Recognition and Continuous Improvement (68:19)

• MING won the Horological Revelation prize at 2019’s GPHG—a major industry accolade.
• In two years, the brand produced 12 models, constantly pushing for the next evolution:

  "It's almost gone to the point where I'm not trying to sell you a watch anymore. I'm selling you an idea of what a watch can be." — Ming (70:49)

Rapid Fire: The HODINKEE Questionnaire

• Watch that caught his eye: GP Cosmos for its design and domed sapphire (71:35)
• Best travel spot: Hoshinoya ryokan, Tokyo

  “I’m a huge Japanophile... it's like a little oasis.” — Ming (72:32)

• Best advice received: "Be patient" — advice from many throughout his life (72:52)
• Guilty pleasure: "Company humidor"—smoking cigars at design meetings (73:49)
• Cultural recommendation: Paintings by René Magritte and Edward Hopper for their “calm aesthetic” and “underlying tension” (74:20)

  “They are very simple in a way, but the idea is very strong... if you look closely, you get rewarded.” — Ming (74:20)

• Jack Forster’s rec: Ghosts of the Tsunami by Richard Lloyd Perry (75:40)
• Stephen’s rec: Mindhunter (Netflix) for lovers of psychological drama (77:00)

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Selected Notable Quotes

• On design evolution:

  “It's actually been described before as Art Deco meets Tron... it's a little bit more clean, a little bit more modern, not so modern that it becomes stark.” — Ming (35:04)

• On reductionism:

  “Design tends to be a process of inclusion. So I see a lot of design work not just for watches, for cars... there's stuff thrown in for the sake of looking complex. They don't serve any real function. When you start taking away all that stuff, I think you're left with something that certainly has a lot more integrity.” — Ming (40:13)

• On honesty in manufacturing:

  “We give credit to our suppliers, because without them, we can't exist... That’s transparency.” — Ming (66:10)

• On recognition:

  "I think if I'd said to the original founding group, look, in two years we're going to have 12 different watches and we're going to be in GPHG twice in the finals... I think they would have said, yeah, right. I don't believe you. We're not doing this." — Ming (69:10)

• On the meaning of the work:

  "We’re really doing something that we believe in. We’re doing something other people believe in. And it’s not, it's almost gone to the point where I'm not trying to sell you a watch anymore. I'm selling you an idea of what a watch can be." — Ming (70:49)

Important Guest Segment Timestamps

• [22:44] — Ming on designing as an enthusiast
• [34:09–37:16] — Development of the MING brand design
• [38:18–41:10] — Philosophy emphasizes concept over technique
• [46:54–56:24] — The journey from custom commissions to launching MING Watches
• [58:15] — On using Schwartz Etienne as a movement partner
• [63:07] — The collaborative, transparent approach at MING
• [68:19] — Reflections on industry accolades and what’s next

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Tone & Language

The episode is conversational, reflective, and revealing, characterized by humility, admiration for Japanese culture, and a genuine curiosity about the future of watchmaking both at HODINKEE and at MING. Ming’s segments are philosophical and granular, matching his background in both art and science.

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Summary Takeaways

This episode captures the essence of two forward-thinking moments in contemporary watch culture:

• HODINKEE Japan’s launch is not just a business expansion, but an embrace of cultural exchange with a sophisticated collector community.
• MING Watches’ philosophy shows that success in independent watchmaking today means a transparent, collaborative, and reductionist approach—one that values aesthetic intent, functional integrity, and openness over industry dogma.

Listeners gain insights into both the emotional and technical sides of making a global mark in horology—from the buzz of a Tokyo launch party to the painstaking refinement behind each new watch.

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For those seeking both a window into a milestone industry event and a masterclass in modern independent watchmaking, this episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

[A]

You started designing watches pretty early on in your career as a watch enthusiast, right?

[B]

There were a lot of things that I wanted that I couldn't have, couldn't afford, couldn't find. And then you look at them and go, well, you know, what if that was slightly different? Or what if that took on that aesthetic? And basically I started scribbling to see whether those ideas would work. I learned a lot about what I like and what I dislike from a design point of view, because you have to make a conscious choice about every single line, screw, dial element forces you to consciously evaluate when you look back on your work, do you still like it two or three years later?

[A]

Hey, everybody, I'm your host, Stephen Pulverin, and this is Hodinkee Radio. I'm recording this in my hotel room in Tokyo just a day after we launched Hodinki Japan, the first ever international edition of Hodinkee, based here in Tokyo. And I'm here with Enri, our coo, and Ben and Dave for a pair of launch events we hosted yesterday at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya. And we thought it'd be fun, between those two events to sit down, have a couple minutes, just the four of us, during the kind of eye of the storm, to talk about what this all means, what it was like to put Hodinki Japan together to build a team here in Tokyo, and what it means emotionally to see Hodinkee in Japanese in another market with a new global team for the first time. It's a pretty special thing and we get into all of that, so. So then we've got a conversation that I had a couple weeks ago with our own Jack Forrester, and then Ming Tian, the founder of Ming Watches, and his colleague Praneeth Raj Singh, who's their head of operations, about what it's like to start a watch brand. Ming started as an enthusiast and in 2017, after years and years of preparation, launched Ming Watches. One thing that's going to stand out is the conversation is all already a bit outdated. Like I said, we had it a couple weeks ago. But in the time since Ming won the Horological Revelation prize at the 2019 GPHG in Geneva, and I got to see Ming in Geneva just a few moments after their win, and I have to say, it really couldn't happen to a better group of guys. And it's amazing to see enthusiasts enter the space and get rewarded for it. So without further ado, let's get into it. This week's episode is presented by Tag Heuer. Stay tuned. Later in the show to learn about the iconic Monaco celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. For more visit tag heuer.com. Hey guys, what's going on?

[C]

Hey. Just here in Japan hanging.

[A]

I know, right? Like just here in Japan hanging out.

[D]

We are just in Japan hanging out, the four of us.

[A]

So we got Ben, we got Enery, we got Davey, and we got me. Team Japan.

[D]

Team Japan.

[E]

Team Japan.

[D]

Two guys that are not often on the podcast are on the podcast.

[A]

Right? I know. We're bringing new voices in. We got Dave, we got Enery. I think they're a little terrified, but

[D]

should we explain who these guys are or.

[A]

Yeah, sure. How about you? You explain Enri, I'll explain Dave.

[D]

Where to begin with Henry. Henry. He's the best dressed guy in the office for sure.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, Nick. Nick Roberts.

[D]

So there's another guy, Nick, he's also.

[B]

Really.

[D]

Well, no. Enery is our chief operating officer. He's been with us for what, two and a half years? Something like that.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

He is the guy that makes the whole world go round.

[A]

Yeah, we for the most part can't do what we do without any.

[D]

Correct. And he's here to my left. And we are in Tokyo right now to celebrate the launch of Hodinkee Japan. And across from me we have Dave.

[A]

We got Dave. Mr. Dave O' Harrell, who is one of our video producers. If you enjoy our videos, you've got Dave to thank. Also one of the most stylish guys in the office in a very different way than Enery. But yeah. You happy to be here, Dave?

[E]

I mean, yeah, I'm ecstatic.

[A]

I mean you're usually on the other side of the mic slash camera, but you gotta be on this side now.

[E]

Yeah, it's good to be here. You know, I wish everyone can see our surroundings. Like we're in Japan and everything is so curated and high level of taste that matches Hinki's aesthetic. So yeah, it's great to be here.

[A]

Yeah. So just to like set the scene for people here, we're. We're at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya and we're between our two launch events. So we did a lunch in a like seated lunch for some, some folks from the watch brands. Then Ben did what, two hours of press interviews this afternoon. So I making you talk more. Sorry. And then in about an hour we have the kind of like public party. So folks from some watch brands but also just like watch collectors, watchmakers, watch dealers, you know, the watch community here in. Here in Japan. But I gotta say for me, today's been pretty surreal. How about for you guys?

[C]

It's been. Humbling is the word that I would use. Yeah, that's a good word. You know, it's seeing our little brand go international by and being handled by a real group of professionals that are just top notch and really taking our brand to the next level. It's, you know, it's. It's a little humbling. It's a little eye opening of, you know, kind of the reach that, that Hodinkee has been able to reach. And it's, it's kind of a proud moment, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you and I had the benefit of. We were here a couple of weeks ago to meet the team and help kind of get. Get some things set up ahead. But like Ben, you arrived yesterday. Your flight landed, I guess, what, like barely 24 hours ago? Correct. Yes, we threw you right into the fire.

[D]

But I would expect nothing less from you, Steven.

[A]

You know that's what I'm here for, right?

[D]

That's indeed what you're here for. Just to kind of fuck with me.

[A]

Yeah, somebody's gotta do it.

[D]

Somebody does have to do it.

[A]

So what's it been like for you?

[D]

I mean, as enery expertly said, I mean, this has been a humbling experience, an eye opening one. To see this brand that I started 11 years ago for fun to be handled with such kind of deft touch here in Japan is pretty wild. So we're working with Hearst, an amazing publishing kind of group here and we found two amazing young editors that are to my left over there. Hey guys, how are you? They're going to be on the podcast soon to really lead our brand here into a market that we've all the four of us here on the podcast have really admired and loved from afar. It just felt like the right time, the right market with the right partner. And so we had a wonderful lunch today with some kind of VIPs and CEOs of wash brands, et cetera. And tonight we have the big kickoff party and the site went live, I guess. On Monday, right?

[A]

On Monday, Yeah. It's live.

[D]

It's live and it's beautiful. I texted it out to a few friends and many of them said Japanese just looks good on your site. It looks like it belongs there. And so it's just an amazing moment for us to see all of our hard work kind of, you know, then be combined with the hard work of our new Japanese colleagues into a magical moment.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was crazy seeing the site Live. You know, we set it live Monday night at 10pm local time so that our colleagues in the US would be in the office. And it was crazy to see Hodinkee with Japanese on it. And then really quickly, we published A Week on the Wrist in Japanese. And Dave helped direct a shoot the other day for the first ever Talking watches. In Japanese.

[D]

In Japanese.

[A]

In Japanese. Which was really wild. Do you want to. Do you want to talk about that

[E]

a little bit extra surreal? I, you know, on my way here to Japan, I watched Lost in Translation on the plane, and I kind of related to Bill Murray just sitting in his chair with a Japanese crew speaking in, you know, Japanese and kind of. He's just feeling a little bit out of place. But at the same time, we, with our crew, everyone was very accommodating and really understood, you know, the series itself and really took all the care and attention to make it the highest quality possible. Not in a way to impress us, but just to uphold the Hodinkee way. And I was so impressed with the way it went, and I think it went wonderfully. They're going to edit it and, yeah, I think everyone's going to love how it's going to turn out.

[C]

I think that's probably been one of my favorite parts of this entire experience is seeing our partners from first Fuji and Yahoo. Really ideate to try to take Hoodinki Japan to the next level. We've been in some meetings where Steven and I just kind of give a little bit of background on what we have. And then you see the wheels turning and the entire team starts talking Japanese and Stephen and I can just sit back and just think, okay. We all look at each other and say, okay, something's happening.

[A]

We have no idea what it is.

[C]

We have no idea what it is.

[A]

Something good.

[C]

You can tell it's exciting. You can tell that they're into it, and you can tell that they just get it, you know, So I can't wait to see how this. This develops. I can't wait to see how they put their own touch on the Hodinkee brand in Japanese. And, you know, it's just an exciting moment.

[A]

Yeah, agreed. It was. It was super cool for me. You know, I. I got to have the easy job at the Talking watch issue because Dave had to direct the crew. I just got to be there and just see it and hang out and had zero responsibility, which is, again, my.

[F]

My way.

[D]

I was gonna say that is basically all that you do.

[A]

Just hang out. Yeah, yeah. Ben knows what's up, but yeah, it was. It was amazing. I mean, we had maybe the biggest crew we've ever had on a shoot. We got to shoot on location. Some were super cool. I'm not gonna give too much away, but it was really amazing to watch Dave and this team work together. Language barrier aside, it was a super smooth, amazing shoot and everybody was on the same page. One of the coolest things is even if you don't speak Japanese and you're reading the global site hodinkee.com, we're going to bring the story and the video over to hodinkee.com too. So in addition to our colleagues here translating stuff we. We're writing at HQ in New York into Japanese, we're going to be translating things from Japanese into English. So this video, when it premieres and debuts, will be available so everybody can kind of enjoy it. And I'm excited to see how we end up with different spins on kind of old things. And I think we're going to end up learning a lot from this team, and I think it's going to kind of infuse some new ideas and new perspectives into what we do every day at hq too. I think it's not going to be just kind of, like, isolated to what's going on here in Tokyo. Any thoughts on that, Ben?

[D]

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I've been so impressed so far with everything that I've seen over here. And, you know, now it's just. It's gonna be fun to see the two kind of teams integrate. And I know that there are plans for us to come here often and them to come see us in New York and it'll be like having, like, pen pals, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Remember pen pals?

[A]

Yeah, I remember pen pals.

[D]

Who was your pen pal when you were, like, adolescent?

[A]

I did. I did have a pen pal. Not as an adolescent, but as, like, an elementary school kid.

[D]

And where was his pen pal located?

[A]

I can't remember.

[D]

Like St. Louis or something?

[A]

No, I can't remember where. I don't know. I don't know what they had us doing in Texas. It probably wasn't anything good. That's right.

[D]

You're from Texas.

[A]

It probably wasn't anything good, but that's okay. It's probably from, like, the other side of Texas, but, you know.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. What are your other takeaways today? Just feels kind of like a blur a little bit.

[D]

It does feel like a blur. I mean, it's one of those things for those listeners who've traveled to Japan. That first day really is just like a haze. You know, we woke up. What do we do then? I truly don't remember. Oh, we came here, we had lunch, and now we did some interviews, and now we're gonna have a launch party very soon. But, yeah, it's one of those things where being in a land that feels so familiar because I've been here before, and there's so many kind of familiar faces, but still so foreign is a pretty wild thing, for sure.

[E]

I think for me, it's like, even with the events going on today and the way the Talking Watches shoot went, it's like no detail is overlooked. You know, we had a crew of 10 to go back to the Talking Watches episode. We had a group of 10 people in the crew, and I was like, you know, back home, we only have myself, Gray, Shahid, and Will, of course, and that's a crew of four people. And I was like, what's everyone gonna do? One guy was. His job, literally, was to film me on his iPhone shooting the watches so that they could take it back to the office and kind of study the way I was doing things. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. So even this event today and walking around, even in Shibuya, you get a sense of, like, how curated and. And, you know, how much thought is put into everything the Japanese do. So, yeah, it's a natural partner, and it's great.

[C]

You know, I think the biggest takeaway for me so far is that there is an entire watch culture here in. In Japan that is much deeper than what we've been able to study from the U.S. you know, and so we. We kind of know that the usual suspects here, right, you know, the. The. The Casios, the Seiko, Grand Seikos, the citizens of the world. But, you know, there is a huge collector community of independence out here, which I find incredibly fascinating and. And very much in line with Japanese culture in general, you know, and I'm excited to see, like, what else is under, you know, the hood, you know, from. From other brands. You know, there is this new Bulgari Octofenissimo that was. I'll do this limited editions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That.

[C]

That the guys from Japan just wrote about today. Stephen, can probably elaborate on what it is, you know, but just seeing product that never reaches, you know, the US or kind of the. The other traditional markets that you think of for watches, and just, you know, so many interesting tidbits that I've been able to learn, you know, from. From some of the folks out here, you know, it's for, for some of the biggest brands in the world, the Japan market is, you know, in their top two, top three in terms of volume and whatnot. And, and, and so there's is. There's just a completely different world here that needs to be explored deeper, you know, and I think that we're all going to be a little bit better for. For it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

I think, you know, a lot of people have been asking today, really, I was going to say this week, but it's actually just been today. You know, why, why Japan? And I think, you know, as Enery kind of touched on, like the, the Japanese have, have a wonderful history with, with high end watchmaking. You know, if you look at brands like EP Journe. So Journe opened their first boutique ever in Tokyo. Yeah, they've done several limited editions specifically for Tokyo. Lange has a great history here as well. I believe the number one Lange collector in the world that resides in Tokyo. I think that's true, Dufour. So rumor has it that 80% of the simplicities sold were sold at Xiaoman here in Tokyo. You know, it really has been at the forefront of modern horology. And then also vintage. I mean, you know, there are dedicated magazines to vintage watches here, which are effectively just catalogs, but still pretty neat.

[A]

So Enri's laughing because when we were here last time, our colleague Wadasan over there, who's also smiling at me now, we were talking about the reference points that Mariner I put together, and he was like, oh, have you seen the magazine version of this? And I was like, what? And he brought me a magazine that was basically the reference points that I spent weeks researching. And all the information was right there in a print magazine.

[D]

Was it Vintage Watch Bible or what was it?

[A]

I can't remember what it was, but I have it back in the office. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

I mean, it's just the market here is exactly who we are. You know, I was just giving another interview to some Japanese press and in many ways, you know, what we do at Hodinkee kind of subconsciously was really in the Japanese kind of like philosophy of study. Right. It's like taking something that's super niche and going really deep on it, so it makes sense for us to be here. And then of course, vintage, you know, in Japan is such a thing. Ed Sheeran bought his first vintage Rolex here two weeks ago. Just saying at Jack Road, you know, Jack Road is kind of a famous vintage watch dealer here. You know, it's just one of those places where, like, people get really into old things, which speaks directly to who we are.

[A]

It's kind of our move.

[D]

It is. It is our move.

[A]

All right, so I got one more question I gotta ask. I'm gonna make everybody share what watch they're wearing for today's launch. Cause I know all of us thought about it really hard. So, Ben, while we've got you, let's start with you. What watch did you wear today and why? Yeah, let's make you flex. Come on.

[D]

Come on, guys. I mean, I don't need this. I'm wearing a Philippe Dufour Simplicity, which I've owned for six years, probably. It's a 37 millimeter rose gold example, one of the early watches. It is lacquer dial Breguet hands. It's a perfect watch. I mean, it's one of those things, you know, I mean, it kind of needs no introduction with this community, but it really is as good as they say, if not better. And I thought, you know, because of the connection with Dufour in Japan, it made a lot of sense. It's also a little brown brand agnostic. You know, it is just a wonderful watch. No matter if you work for Patek or Lange or Vacheron or AP or Rolex or Omega, everyone respects the simplicity, and it just felt right tonight. And I'm also wearing a suit, which I almost never do, so I thought it would be nice to wear. Good. Thanks. Yeah. What color. What color is your suit?

[A]

My suit is taupe. Yeah.

[D]

Toupee.

[A]

Yeah. Toupee. Yeah. Thanks, Toupe. Thanks, Dave. Toupee. Yeah. Enery. What. What are you rocking today?

[C]

I am rocking a Grand Seiko SBGW 252, which is the gold limited edition from 2017. I want to say that was the reintroduction of the original Grand Seiko from 1960. And so, obviously, when, you know, we're in Japan, you know, I wanted to rock something that was from the local market, and it just felt good. I've worn this watch often this year. It's, to me, pretty much the perfect time only watch. You know, it's. It does one thing and it does it to perfection. And that kind of speaks to me these days.

[A]

Nice. All right, Davey, what are you wearing?

[E]

So I did put some thought into this this morning, and I. I brought my white op and I thought about putting it on a. Wait for it. I was going to put it on a Hermes wrap strap. Is that it? Like, I. I asked you, Henry, remember? I asked you about this in a cab.

[D]

Today would have been the day for sure. I guess tomorrow would have been.

[E]

Right. I didn't know if that was a bold move, but anything goes. Yeah, exactly. Anything goes. In Japan, they just have a way of like taking something and flipping it a little bit and then.

[D]

Do you have the strap already?

[E]

I. I was gonna go do it in my hotel room, but do you.

[D]

I. Do you own the strap?

[E]

I have the strap.

[D]

That's what I'm getting.

[E]

So it's just sitting there. I was gonna make that into content to actually, you know, show the watch tools on the side and actually switch

[D]

it out and can we still make that in the content?

[E]

I'm going to do it tomorrow and then, you know. But I am wearing the Cartier tank because, you know, ultimate dress watch. I'm wearing a suit as well, and I don't normally wear a suit, so I figure let's just keep it classic today.

[A]

Nice. I'm kind of with enery on this one. I'm also wearing a Grand Seiko, but I'm wearing a vintage Grand Seiko. I'm wearing a 65 GS that I actually bought on my last trip to Tokyo. I figured I'm in Japan for the first time, I need a Japanese watch, so I went with some. There happened to be some American Grand Seiko collectors here. Last time I was here, shout out to JP and Eric, and we went watch shopping. We were just walking around. We went into a shop and they happened to have this watch, and I loved it. And I happened to have two experts with me to vet it for me, and turned out it's a great piece. So I took it home with me last time and kind of knowing then that that was the watch I was gonna wear today. So easy choice.

[D]

Do we want to do a wrist check on our Japanese colleagues over there?

[A]

Yeah, let's do. Let's have you guys come over and make a surprise, surprise appearance. So first up, we've got our editor in chief, Mr. Sekiguchi San. What watch are you wearing today?

[B]

I'm wearing Cartier Santos.

[E]

Yeah, Brand new Santos.

[B]

Yeah, I bought on last Saturday.

[A]

This. Oh, wow.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

So it's kind of for the launch.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

All right. There we go. Oh, man. All right. And Mr. Wadasan, our web producer. What are you wearing?

[B]

I'm wearing my Breguet Marine, the previous

[C]

one, and blue dial. I just love it.

[A]

Any reason why that was your. Your choice today?

[C]

Well, I wear this all the time.

[B]

This is like my third watch, and

[C]

I. I Post a lot on Instagram, and I saw maybe people recognize me as a guy with a, you know, brew bragging Marine. So, yeah.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Thanks.

[A]

Awesome. All right, we're gonna have you guys back on soon, but I think we gotta go. We gotta get ready for this party that starts in. In less than half an hour, so I'll let you guys go. Ben, I'll let you, like, not talk for 20 minutes today. We'll give you a little break. But it's gonna be a hell of an adventure, isn't it?

[D]

Sure is.

[A]

All right, thanks, guys. Up next, we've got our conversation with Ming Tien and Pranith Raj Singh of Ming Watches.

[B]

I feel like I'm gonna have a lot of secrets exposed because Jack knows me from the early days.

[A]

Yeah, that's the goal here.

[F]

So, Ming, tell us about your previous career as a drug smuggler and gunrunner.

[B]

You know, it was a lot. It was a lot. It was a lot quieter than being a watch designer. A lot quieter.

[A]

That actually doesn't surprise me.

[B]

Yeah. Because the thing with. The thing with watch design is you. You have to satisfy so many people. You know, if you're just. If you're just running guns and smuggling drugs, at the end of the day, it's only the one kingpin you've got to make happy. You know, he signs the checks. Everything's all good with. With. With the watch business. You've got investors, you've got customers, you've got, you know, second cousins you've never seen, saying, I saw your watch on wherever, and I need one now, and, sorry, we're sold out. You know, that's. That's always our challenge.

[A]

How. How long have you actually been in the watch business because you're a longtime collector and enthusiast?

[B]

I've been an enthusiast longer than I've been a collector because of financial limitations in terms of how much we can

[A]

collect, but make sense? Yeah.

[B]

I started basically being interested in watches, I would say, in 2001. 2002, because at that point when I was at university, I wanted to buy myself something nice. So I did some research, and then I found purists and time zone and people like Jack. And then I discovered that, you know, that. That really interesting. Looks complex and makes a chiming noise. Oh, that's six figures. And you fall off the deep end. Right. So since 2001, I've had some degree of involvement in all of this stuff.

[A]

How did you first come to watches?

[B]

Hmm, that's a tough question, because I think there's been always My dad had some low level of interest in it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, so there was, there was an Omega. There was, I think it was a Speedmaster of some sort. There was an earlier turnomatic. My mom had a Rolex that her brother bought for her. I looked at those things and went, okay, so I don't quite get it. I'm going to do a little bit more research myself. And then I landed up buying an Omega dynamic chronograph in a harrod sale in 2001. I think those were the days when they decided to slash prices. I think I paid £200 for it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I was very pleased with that. In hindsight, looking back at that purchase even today, I still very much like the way the watch looks.

[F]

You know, I came very close to buying one at about the same time, very early 2000s. I, you know, was just really starting to get into the watch Internet at about the same time that you were and, you know, met you on thepurists.com and you know, I remember there was, there was an Omega dynamic chronograph in a shop window that I used to pass on my way to work. And I thought to myself, you know, that's a nice looking watch.

[B]

Was it the regular one or the Tiger Florio one?

[F]

The which one?

[B]

There's a Tiger Florio version. There's a regular one. And then there was, I found out later there was another one with a dial with a minute markings subdial. With the minute markings were towards the outside so you could actually read them. Mine has a minute markings on the inside. I can't read it. The dial is also radioactive, I found out later because now it's turned this very nice shade of tritium brown.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[F]

So you still have the watch?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[F]

Oh, that's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. The last time I pulled out was actually get it serviced about a year and a half ago. But, you know, I, I think it's actually stood the test of time really well and you know, in a way that's indirectly influenced our design decisions as well because I'm very conscious of things that, you know, perhaps look great now, but may not look so great in 20 years. But that watch is 22 years old. So I, I think it's, I think it's lasted quite well.

[F]

So early 2000s, you're kind of discovering the watch Internet for the first time and you had already started pretty enthusiastically attempting to design your own watches.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of stuff didn't work. I think you probably remember some of that, I think you were one of my most vocal critics. Like, no, that's not possible.

[A]

Well, because, yeah, that's something I think people should know is like, you guys have known each other for what, almost 20 years now?

[F]

Amazingly enough, yes.

[B]

Yeah, going on it. But actually that's a good point because at the same time I also met Magnus Bossa, who is one of our co founders, and I've also known him for about 20 years. There are other people in our company who I've known for very similar amount of time because either we've known each other through pursuits other than watches, like doing silly things in cars or as photography clients. And basically we have, we have a bit of history. So we kind of know what we think. We know all of the watch buying skeletons in each other's closets. You know, the jokes, like, remember that time you bought. Okay, silent.

[F]

You and you were in university at the time.

[B]

I was. So let me see, that was 2002. I started in 2001. Sorry, 2000. I graduated 2003. I have a degree in theoretical physics. It's not terribly useful even for watchmaking.

[F]

What I think, just out of curiosity for listeners, what branch of theoretical physics?

[B]

Cosmology. So the most useless branch.

[F]

It's totally.

[B]

It's very relevant. It's absolutely relevant to everybody, but completely useless because we can't do anything about it.

[F]

Yeah, yeah. I remember telling my oldest son, when he was probably too young for this piece of information, he asked me how the universe was going to end. And I explained to him that even the proton is supposed to eventually decay. And he got very upset about it. And I said to him, it's not going to happen in a timeframe that has any relevance for human beings at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And he said, it's not when it's going to happen, it's that it's going to happen.

[B]

We're not even sure about.

[A]

Man, the conversations that go on in the Forester household.

[B]

We're not even sure about that. Yeah, we're not even sure about that. It may not decay. It may just become cold and lifeless and, you know, run out of. Run out of background energy. But that's another conversation.

[F]

Oh, I feel so much better now. Thank you.

[B]

My pleasure.

[A]

That's what we're here to do is answer the big questions. Yeah.

[F]

So do you see any connection between your interest in physics, your interest in cosmology and your interest in watches? I mean, there's a trivial one, of course, in that they're both concerned with time.

[B]

Well, at some Point I'd really like to make a moon phase. I know that's a very simplified answer to that question, but basically, inside a watch, conceptually, I think there's a whole universe of things going on, not just from the mechanical standpoint, but all of the people and companies and partners and processes and thought that has to go into. Into making it happen. Right. So we look at it and go, okay, I appreciate it from a mechanical and an art point of view. And that's just the surface of it. In some ways, it's a nice echo of the rest of the universe, because there's so much that we see at a literal level that we don't see that we can go on to appreciate. And then at some point, I'd love to make one of those celestial complication things.

[A]

Is this something you're working on, or is this still in the sort of dream conceptual?

[B]

Maybe we're working on it, but I think it's a little way out. Because at this point, the layout that I want is going to need a new movement, and we're not quite at the point where we can make our own movements yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I say no.

[A]

Jack already alluded to this, but you started designing watches pretty early on in your, I guess, career as a watch enthusiast, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What kind of made you say, like, okay, I'm interested in these things now I'm going to start making my own, at least on paper and in your head, Right.

[B]

So there were a lot of things that I wanted that I couldn't have, couldn't afford, couldn't find. And then you look at them and go, well, you know, what if that was slightly different? Or what if that took on that aesthetic? And basically I started scribbling to see whether those ideas would work? Some did, some didn't, you know, and of course, you're interested in the movement part. So you go and, you know, spend hours pouring over George Daniels watchmaking and figuring out how exactly you can make those escapements work, how exactly you can make those movements work. And I think I learned a lot about what I like and what I dislike from a design point of view, because you have to make a conscious choice about every single line, screw, dial, element, all of those things. Right. And it forces you to objectively evaluate whether it works for you or not, you know, and it forces you to consciously evaluate, when you look back on your work, do you still like it two or three years later? And I think both of you have seen a little bit of the early stuff. Jack, more. So you can see that there is a design progression from where I started out, started exploring around, I would say, defined themes, and then have come back to what we're producing today. And that will go on. The next generation of watches, the next generation of our design language will continue on, and you'll see that evolution. I think for most of the market, most of the collectors, they saw us as 1701 was the first watch we made, but that wasn't the first watch I designed. It wasn't the second. It wasn't the third. I think by that point, you know, we roughly counted it. It's something like 150 different variants, not counting the minor variants. 150 different major variants. So we've had some thinking time behind this.

[F]

So when you say 150 or so different variants, that's just the design process for the first watch that went into production.

[B]

No, sorry, I should have clarified that. By 150 variants, I mean there are 150 different watches, right. Each of which had a process behind it to get to that point. And then for the first watch, the first watch, I think, was more difficult than later ones because we also had to define what the brand would be. You know, what kind of design language do we want to have that would allow us to be consistent and at the same time, allow us to do a lot of different types of watches, be a bit more. Offer different types of complications, you know, offer different price points. And it had to scale, basically, you know, and together with that, we also had to answer the business question of where do we want to sit in the hierarchy of the hierarchy of pricing and brand placement and everything else? So that was a much more difficult watch to design than anything, perhaps apart from the diver.

[A]

This week's episode is presented by TAG Heuer. There are many reasons why the TAG Heuer Monaco is an icon. It represents a technological breakthrough as one of the first automatic chronographs, and it has a unique design language that's recognizable from a mile away. But even more than those two things, it's a watch that's intimately tied to the history of racing as a part of pop culture, largely thanks to one man, Mr. Steve McQueen. In the late 1960s, there wasn't anyone cooler on planet Earth. McQueen had starred in Bullitt and the Thomas Crown Affair and embodied a unique combination of ruggedness and elegance. He was, quite simply, the man. So when McQueen zipped up his white racing suit with Golf livery and Heuer crest and strapped on a square blue watch in the 1971 film Le Mans, people took notice this is arguably the most important racing movie of all time. And on the wrist of the megamovie Star lead is none other than the original Heuer Monaco, the reference 1133. This put the Monaco in front of millions of viewers across the world. And thanks to the watch's distinctive design with its square case, its rich blue dial with contrasting white substances, dials and its opposing pushers and crown, there was no mistaking it for any other watch. The Monaco has remained a favorite of racing enthusiasts and Hollywood types ever since. For five decades and counting, it's been a totem of pure coolness through and through. For more about the TAG Heuer Monaco and the watch's 50th anniversary, visit TAGHeuer.com alright, let's get back to the show.

[F]

Before we started recording, we were looking at some of the design drawings that you did in the early 2000s series from 2003 in particular. And you can really see a connection between those and the watches that you ended up finally producing. There really does seem to have been a years long, decades long process of thought and refinement going on behind all this. Second observation is that you actually achieved something which is very hard to do, which is you produced a idiosyncratic design language that makes your watches instantly recognizable as Ming watches. And that was not a fast process.

[B]

It was not. And I think the most important thing for us to achieve that is basically we don't design according to, I would say hard elements. So I don't say I must have the zero. For instance, at 12, we design according to a set of principles. That is, I need a certain overall aesthetic which has been described before as Art Deco meets Tron. I think that's actually quite accurate.

[F]

Art Deco meets Tron.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I like that, that makes, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah, it's Art Deco meets Tron. You know, it's more metropolis than sort of. Yeah, I don't know, the sort of very ornate, detailed kind of Art Deco. You know, it's a little bit more clean, a little bit more modern, not so modern that it becomes stark. But so we have anyway, we have these design principles that underpin all of our watches. And that in itself creates a design language. It's not saying I must have for instance, a certain design of arc or a certain design of hands, or certain design of indices or font. I mean, those are consequences of that process. So firstly, we need to have readability and functionality. So time reading comes first. I design a watch like a photographic composition. I make sure that the most important elements are the Ones you notice first, and then everything else sort of descends in a hierarchy, and then we throw in layering on top of that to make it visually interesting. And the way every piece interacts with light is very deliberate. So you'll notice that Even on the 1706 or 1701s, there's a lot of layers going on in the dial, because as you live with the watch, as you see it under different light conditions, it's very alive. You know, it changes more so with the 19s, because you've got even more layers in there. And we've got that partially transparent gradient sapphire dial that allows you to see the movement, but at the same time, it sort of. It hides everything and creates a blank canvas to read the time. On top of that, it means that we don't really do sub dials because that breaks the symmetry, the functionality. Precept means that the crown must be operable. For instance, we need to make a really comfortable crown to wind, especially if you're going to be winding it every day from any winding pieces. There's a little bit of lyricism in the lugs. That's the art deco part coming in. At the same time, I need to design something that, personally I can wear. I don't have very big wrists, and a lot of our market in Asia doesn't have very big wrists, but it has to have the wrist presence. So we find that we do things with simple or very small bezels, very narrow bezels, a lot of dial, short interlock distance. So it means that you have a watch that has a lot of wrist presence. Visually, it looks big, but it still wears comfortably. We also do smooth case backs with a slight convexity to it so that they're very. They're comfortable to wear.

[F]

So just backing up a little bit. You mentioned that you compose a watch dial in a way similar to how you would compose a photograph, and that there's a hierarchy of details that you want people to experience. And I don't know how many of our readers are actually aware that you didn't actually go straight into designing watches right after graduating.

[B]

No. So there's a little bit of a career in between.

[F]

There's a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

So. So, in fact, there's a major career in between two of them, actually. Yep. And when I. When Ming. Sort of. When, you know, when you sort of resurfaced in my attention, it was years later, and it was, as one of the world's most widely read on the Internet, writers about photography and about photographic equipment and Photographic processes and your work was always both. I would say it was equal parts extremely granular as far as technical details are concerned, but also extremely granular in terms of processes dedicated to achieving particular aesthetic effects.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to quickly gloss over the first career, which was, you know, private equity, corporate, all that kind of stuff. The second career was photography. I came back to photography because I like to create stuff. I needed to create stuff. And it was one of those things where at the time it was easier to do piecemeal creation of a photograph rather than, say, an entire watch. I also resurrected a lot of my contacts in the brands at that point and started off my photography career shooting watches. But to your point of the balancing off that technicality with the aesthetic and the idea. I mean, to me the idea has to come first, so the concept has to come first. The technical stuff is merely supporting. And I've always been slightly sad that the vast majority of people tend to confuse the two. The hardware, the techniques, the processes, they always must be subservient to the end concept, the end idea. It's the same thing in a watch, whether the case is machined a certain way, whether it's finished a certain way. That depends on what do you want to do with it. Do you want it to be a more dressy piece? Do you want it to be a more rugged looking piece? Do you want it to be a more subdued piece? From a compositional standpoint, you know, I think most people think his composition is additive. It's actually not. Because the world is so busy, it should be treated as subtractive. Anything that's not your primary subject is a distraction. It's either context or it's a distraction. If you. If you don't want it to be there at all, and the idea is stronger without it, then you should take it up. You know, composition is a process of conscious exclusion. Design tends to be a process of inclusion. So I see a lot of design work not just for watches, for cars, whatever else. I mean, there's stuff thrown in. There's elements thrown in that are there for the sake of looking complex. They don't serve any real function. When you start taking away all that stuff, I think you're left with something that certainly has a lot more integrity from a design point of view. There's less risk of being misinterpreted or badly interpreted or being very polarizing. Because everybody knows that the functions that are left behind, the elements that are left behind serve a purpose. And that purpose is tell the time, add Visual interest, you know, focus your. Focus your attention on selling the time. Create a certain impression of the. You know, if the finishing of the aesthetic or whatever else it may be. I mean, we. You notice one thing. With our watches, we don't have a lot of script on the dial. And in fact, in almost every design, I struggle to figure out where we put the brand name. It's usually hidden into an arc somewhere because that's the. That's the easiest place to put it. I don't want to break up the symmetry. You know, I don't want to call attention to something that's unnecessary. You know, what you bought, if I've done my job right, somebody else looking at it is going to know what you bought. So why do I need to put it there?

[F]

So one of the things that. One of the things that I think of is there's a. One, there's a wonderful interview with the photographer Elliot Erwitt on YouTube. And somebody asks him, and you know, again, for our listeners, he's a famous. And now, you know, pretty old. He was a magnum photographer. And during the interview, I think the first question that the interviewer asks him is, do you feel that digital has ruined photography? And he says, yes, I do feel that digital has ruined photography. And then he goes on to sort of, you know, he kind of gets a laugh. And then he goes on to explain what he means, which is that it's become technically easier. It's become easier than ever to make a more or less technically correct photograph.

[B]

Right.

[F]

And he feels that when things are too. He says when things are too easy, people get sloppy, and sloppy is not good for photography.

[B]

I agree.

[F]

And that in connection with the process of watch manufacturing and design, makes me think about the ability to create designs very rapidly nowadays, you know, to prototype in software. So, number one, what do you think about as a photographer, you know, what do you think about his thought? And as a watch designer, as somebody working now in industrial design, do you think that it's become, in the same sense, maybe a little too easy to execute things that should be given more thought?

[B]

I would say that it depends on how you want to use it. If the tools make it easier for you to execute an idea, that means the idea can be pushed further. So the right user in that sense is going to find a way to deploy those tools, deploy the rapid iteration in a way that basically means you can progress very fast. You can try a lot of different iterations, you can do a lot of variants. I mean, for any given watch, before we Go to prototyping Even, there'll be seven or eight major variants and probably within those, maybe 20, 30 minor variants for each. You know, that that's basically. It lets us get it right up front. You know, the fact that it's easy to do means that we can try things and see how it looks, rather than saying, okay, we got to go and make it and then go through that entire process and then decide later that, oh, that wasn't quite right.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So if it's used properly, I think it's a fantastic enabler. I think it can make life, your life a lot easier. But it also means that, you know, whether you want to use it for ease or whether you want to use it for, you know, pursuing that last fraction of a percent, that's down to. That's down to the individual.

[A]

It's funny that, you know, Jack brought up your photography side. I was. And film and digital as well. In that last night I was actually just poking around on my phone looking up nonsense about old point and shoot film cameras, and I ended up on your blog looking at Contax T3s. But, you know, there's been kind of a revival of interest, not just among Jack and myself, although definitely among Jack and myself in shooting film and in slowing down that process again. And I wonder if, you know, really, as you dive and dove deeper and deeper into watch design, did you get that sort of experience of getting to. Instead of just walking into a boutique or researching a watch online, having kind of a cursory relationship with it, that experience of getting to really focus and slow down and kind of like immerse yourself in the process of watches, was that something enjoyable to you? Was that something new? Was that something old? Kind of. How did that relationship work for you?

[B]

Okay, I'll address the photography bit first because that's, I think, a bit simpler. I. I shot film for a while to understand the process, as you said, but then I applied that discipline to digital and I found that worked very, very well for me. So basically I had the control, I had the technicality, I had the ability to do exactly what I wanted, but that sort of attention to detail in each frame and if you apply that sort of attitude towards whatever you're shooting, whether it's with a phone or whether it's with medium format, the results are a little bit different because you start to observe all the details and make sure that the whole frame comes together in a harmonious way. From a. From a watch process point of view, from a. Whether it's designing or researching or whatever. I mean, I found that certainly having more resources at your disposal means that it's easier to acquire a lot of knowledge very quickly. You know, it's easier to be, it's easy, okay. It's too easy to be inundated by too much information. And it's like, who is valid, who is not, what do I listen to, what do I not listen to? But eventually, basically it's the same thing as with photography. You have all the tools, how do you use them, what do you do with the information, how do you make up your own mind and what's important to you or not important to you at that point, I think I certainly found that there were a lot of watches that I didn't know about that you suddenly learn about and then you've got to go and try and track down and find and everything else. And that's an expensive and painful process. There are a lot of watches that you, you know, you thought were sort of your hero pieces and you went. It's not quite what I expected in person, you know, so it goes both ways. I think there were positive and negative experiences to that, but it's basically, it's really about choice of information, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we've, we've talked about it kind of abstractly, but I want to get into the nuts and bolts. So you're designing watches essentially as a, as a hobby, you're working as a photographer. But then, I mean, the brand launches two years ago. But I assume you've been working on it much longer than that. So when do you decide? Okay, I'm not just gonna make these drawings and push them out on the Internet and see what people have to say, but like, I'm actually gonna make watches. When did that decision come about?

[B]

The chronology of this is a little complex because between 2012 and I would say up till now, AM was a photographer. I guess I'm less of a photographer now and more of a, more of a watch designer. In 2014, a bunch of friends went to an event. We came back from the event and said that experience is not quite what we expected it, you know, and maybe we could, maybe we should think about doing something for ourselves. So we started researching a lot of the independents and you know, several of those went off and commissioned pieces. I mean, for me, I got several pieces from Oxen junior at that point. And every time I was pushing the limit of what they defined as open ended customization. And I think they took that tagline down off the site because they said, okay, we're not doing this anymore. That was a mistake.

[A]

You broke their model.

[B]

I broke it. I mean, I remember having.

[A]

What sorts of things were you doing?

[B]

We got to the point that I think the last one I did with them, the only standard thing that they offered on any other piece was maybe the movement in the case.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Everything else was different, but that's just the case blank. And then there's additional work done to it.

[F]

Are those. I think those watches were written about. And the design process is written about fairly extensively on your blog.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[F]

So we'll link up in the show notes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we'll link that up.

[B]

I mean, that's a. That was a very left field design. I mean, they basically. The first one was, I just want to try out these people and see what they can do. The second one was, okay, how far left field can I go? And that's what's just for me. And the third one, sort of coming back to the middle and going, okay, now I've learned a lot. Most importantly, the whole process of design reductivity and taking away the stuff that's not important. And you'll see with the final one I did. A lot of that DNA has gone into the 19 series. It was an interesting process for me because I always thought the watches I liked had a lot of stuff in them. Basically, they were visually complex. They're mechanically complex, and it didn't have to be that way. So the whole process taught me that you can do a lot of very interesting things with very little. So that, you know, that one line, that one design element serves a lot of functions, right? It serves a lot of.

[F]

Yeah, yeah. Now it's. To me, that's a very interesting observation to make because one of the things that I hadn't. I noticed the similarities between your very early designs from the early 2000s and the watches that you produce today. But what I had not noticed is how much has been eliminated. So those early designs, there's a tremendous amount of celebration of complexity, more or less, for its own sake. These are definitely the visualizations of somebody who's discovering the kind of intellectual and even sensual pleasures of mechanisms, you know,

[B]

for the first time, I think, at that point.

[F]

And all of that stuff has kind of been.

[B]

Well, it was the layer tool in Photoshop. I mean, it's like, wow, I can put more stuff in. So everything up to. Everything that we've publicly released up to this point has actually been designed in Photoshop. So I'm guilty of not making use of all three dimensions. With the watches that will release starting from next year, you'll see that now that I'm working in proper CAD program, there's, you know, there's another. There's another element to it and, and my suppliers are going, no, it was already difficult enough as it was before. Yeah, but I agree, there was that sort of, you know, how much stuff can I cram in? There's a photography term called wimble build or vimobil. I don't know how the Germans pronounce it, but I probably butchered it. That basically means this is sort of recursive detail that you keep looking and there's more detail and it's just, it's just complex. Right. The complexity is what holds the whole thing together. I think the fact that you can still see the design lineage, even though I've taken out a huge amount of that, just shows how much of it wasn't necessary in the first place. Right. But I had to have that experience and go through those processes and make those Ox and Junior watches in order to figure out what we were going to put into the actual thing. So I realize I've not answered your original question.

[A]

That's fine. We can loop back.

[B]

Yeah, so I'm going to loop back and say after we, several of us founders went through that process of commissioning our watches with the independence and, you know, other. Other brands, we said, okay, you know what, maybe there's something in here between access to suppliers, now the collector's market being a little bit more willing to. To buy stuff online so we have access to a greater market. We, you know, we don't have a big impediment by being in the wrong part of the world from a retail point of view. You know, and at that point, I think we also collectively had enough business experience that we said, you know what, we'll do this as a project. We'll ring fence it and if it doesn't work, we're gonna have Christmas gifts for the next 25 years. You know, that didn't happen luckily. Yeah, luckily. But in the end, we didn't really make money on the first batch of 1701's because our expectations of quality were a lot higher than the supplier's expectations. In the end, we rejected 60, 70% all the components.

[F]

Holy smokes.

[A]

What. What sort of things weren't right or weren't up to your standards? Like what sorts of details were you noticing?

[B]

That, okay, luminous material, case crispness, you know, so if you look at the sides of Our cases now, you'll see the reflections are perfectly plain up and apparently that's very difficult to do. So we. We had these like, wavy cases with imprecise lugs. And, you know, my lug design is quite specific. So if the. If that arc, the projected arc when you look down from the top of it is not right, it just looks melted.

[F]

Yeah, that's a characteristic of your designs, I think. They are simple, but not simplistic, and they're extremely unforgiving of any imprecision in execution.

[B]

We tried very hard to make them easy to execute, though, because the 17 Series case can be done with only circular machining operations, which means you can actually make that case on a single axis mill. You can't do that with a 19 series case because it's got compound radius curves in it. It doesn't look like it, but they're definitely there.

[A]

So you have this idea and you decide you're going to make the first 17 series watch. What was the process like of figuring out? You said it wasn't the first watch you designed. So what made you decide that this was the first watch you were actually going to produce?

[B]

Actually, it was the business idea behind it. So we needed to make something that would be sustainable from a corporate point of view and from a. From a business point of view. I mean, it's great to make one watch for yourself, but if you want to continue making watches and stay in business, then we have to make watches in a way that, you know, that is repeatable, right? It's repeatable, it's consistent. And, you know, we have to consider things like spares, repairs after sales, service, you know, volume scaling and all that kind of stuff. So we said the easiest place to start is if we take all of our collective buying experience within the group. I think if you add up the number of years everybody in the founding group has been buying watches, it's like 130 years or 120 years or something like that. We take the things we like, we distill it down to something that's accessible. So what's the typical price point that a new enthusiast could get into? What's the typical price point that an existing enthusiast would say, okay, you know what, that's pretty cheap. I'll pick up one and see how it goes. Have something different. It's like a horological palette cleanser. And then the challenge was what specification fits within that and works from a production standpoint. And obviously, had I known what I know now, I think the watch would be pretty different because we had a lot of, on the face of it, simple looking design elements like the sapphire ring. Right. The sapphire ring gave us so many headaches between production tolerances, between alignment in the case, you know, between how do we make the luminous material adhere, you know, things like that, you know, and it's all of these technical production processes which you don't really think about going in. You're sort of aware of them, you think you know a lot until the first batch of samples arrives and go that's not what I meant. And that's not what was on the drawing. And that happens pretty often.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Also the process of finding suppliers, I know, is not the easiest thing in the world. How did you go about finding the right partners once you knew the watch you wanted to make? How did you find the people to actually make this thing happen?

[B]

We tried a lot of different suppliers, certainly at the early stage for quotes and case engineering and stuff like that. And either the quotes are too high, they didn't quite understand what we wanted. The supplier we went with for the 17 series in the end was somebody that we found through, you know, second or third year, like friend of a friend of a friend in the watch industry that actually magnus found them. So you know, we went with them for the, for the 1701. Their sub supplies changed for the 1703 because we wanted high quality. And they've changed again for the 1706. Same thing again. We're always trying to figure out how to improve the product. So 1701, 1703, 1706. They all have different cases and the case engineering is much more sophisticated on 1706 than 1701. For example, I wanted a case that was rigid, had no spaces and the first situ, the first solution was we do top loading because the dial is big in the movement, everything goes in it's pressure fit. That proved to be a pain to service, pain to assemble. And because we had the sapphire ring dust issues. So to, if you see dust after assembly, you basically have to open the whole thing out again. And it's a very, very time consuming process. On the, on the current generation of 1706 for instance, we've re engineered the case so there's actually space inside it that the bezel is attached with internal screws. So if we need to service things, we need to swap things out. It's very quick. There are alignment notches for a lot of the elements in there, so everything just goes together. You don't have to worry about having perfect alignment, you don't have to eyeball it. Yeah, you don't have to eyeball it.

[A]

So you released the original 17 series watch, which I remember Jack and I. Jack showed it to me one day in the office and I was like, oh, my God, what is this thing?

[F]

Yeah. And you know, the impression, other than just a sort of enjoyment of the aesthetics was what? It was just a tremendous, tremendous value. I mean, you know, it was sustainably tremendous. Yes.

[A]

What was, what was the price point on that piece originally?

[B]

$900. Yeah.

[A]

$900. Right. So then you release your second piece.

[B]

Yes. Which is 1901.

[A]

Right. Which is substantially more expensive.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And people's reactions were mixed. I think.

[B]

I think people said like, I think wtf? Kind of summarized everything nicely. Yeah, we. Okay. The story behind 1901 was it was meant to have a different movement and be with a different supplier. At Basel that year, Magnus got dragged into the Schwarzetian booth by the communications person and, you know, he wasn't allowed to leave until he promised that he'd go visit the factory and do a write up. Okay. When he went, he dragged me along because we were looking for supplies at that point for future projects.

[F]

And I thought this was the first time that you'd ever actually interacted with Schwartz, Etienne.

[B]

Yes, yes. The very first time that we had interacted with them, I met the CEO, Mauro, and he gave us a tour of the factory and he says, oh, yes, this room is where we make the hairsprings. This room is our laser etching machine, which is made by the company downstairs, which is also part of the group. And I'm like, you do all that in house and nobody knows about what you do?

[F]

See, this is one of the things, I mean, I kind of. I heard the name, but I hadn't really understood the depth and breadth and sophistication of manufacturing processes. At Chwart Citien before you basically started using the movements in your watches, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I've got to admit, I think I'd maybe seen the company name, maybe. But I would not have known them from anyone else until I saw them in the 19 series.

[F]

And to this day, I think in our market, certainly they're still not particularly well known.

[A]

No, not at all. I think people definitely know them more from your watches than for their own. Their own pieces.

[B]

Well, we're not complaining. I think they're not complaining. I mean. Anyway, back to the story. At that point, I went in, I saw the movements, I said, this is fantastic from an engineering point of view, because it's so modular. The Same base can take the, you can have a double barrel manual winding, you can have single barrel micro automatic. You know, you can put power reserve on the front, you can put date complication, you can reverse the movement, it works upside down. You can put a tourbillon escapement in. You can have a world time complication. You know, there's so many things I can do with that movement, which I was thinking, I don't have to redesign my case for this. And that means the case proportions stay the same, I don't have to make it thicker, the case proportions stay the same, I can use the same movement and I can do a lot of different things with it. So from a production efficiency standpoint, that's great. So I went, okay, I've known, bear in mind, I've known the, I've known CEO Mauro for three hours now, maybe two and a half. And I said, okay, I'm going to stop, I'm going to stop dissembling. We are actually starting a watch brand and if you don't mind signing an NDA, like to start a project because I'm leaving Switzerland tomorrow.

[A]

Okay, so you go, you just.

[B]

No problem. And that's, that's how it started.

[A]

You just went head first.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then after that I called my investors and said, by the way, we've committed to, we've committed to a rather large project. Surprise, surprise. Yeah, exactly. And there was some hesitation because I think at that point we were also still developing how we did the renderings to make them understandable. And I think looking at the early renders, the, the investors and the rest of the group said, I don't quite know how this is going to turn up. I said, look, trust me on this, if it doesn't work, at very least, you know, we write off the prototype cost and say, look, we've got four piece uniques and that's, that's basically it. As a collector, you know, that's, that's kind of one of the things you really want. So it turns out that that project was very unusual because we started in April, we got prototypes delivered in November the same year, which is unheard of.

[A]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[B]

Literally the day before SalonQP in, you know, we met with them, we met with the Schwarzer 10 team and they said, okay, here's your prototypes. So at that point we didn't have, we didn't have a booth or anything set up at selling qp. So we sort of commandeered a little table in the bar area and it was Very. It was very ghetto. I was like, want to see a watch? Kind of thing. But it was very well received and I'm glad they didn't kick us out. So thank you for the selling QP guys for doing that.

[F]

Do you think it was. I mean, we talked a bit about the fact that Schwartz Etienne is not actually that well known in our market, but one of the maybe accidental benefits of that is that you're perceived as using a somewhat exclusive movement.

[B]

It is an exclusive movement. And even if they were well known, the thing is we changed so much in the movement that I think the most we share with them is actually the gear train. They even use a different balance. So we don't even share that. That we share the gears, we share the gear train, the hairsprings, the mainspring. The plates are obviously different. They don't do skeletonization like that. The world time complication does not exist for them in that form. So there's no combination of complications they have that does that. I mean, we basically have all of the advantages of being. Of having a manufacturer without the HR cost. Right. You know, even. Even the crystals are. Even the crystals are lasered in house. And I'll show you a video of that later. That's pretty cool.

[A]

The crystals are one of the design elements that I think really sets the watch apart. To me, it's as important as the case is the way these sort of domed crystals meet the case, the way they highlight the dial, the way the etched elements then cast shadows on the dials.

[B]

It's like a petri dish with a movement in it. That's what I like to think of as.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great way to describe it, actually. I love that you talked earlier about a sort of reductive process. Right. And one of the dangers of doing that is as you take things away and there were fewer distractions. People pay attention to everything, right? Like, they look closely, they can see every detail, you know, that. That, I think is in a lot of ways an advantage for you, but it's also a burden, right? Like everything has to be done spectacularly because otherwise it's going to stand out.

[B]

Of course. And one of the biggest headaches we had was, was. Was actually, you know, for instance, dust management, because the D. The dial is sapphire. Every single tiny spec you're going to see, then you've got another piece of sapphire on top. Every single spec you're going to see, you know, so it's, it's. It's been a challenging process to. To get the assembly down to a point where we can. We can put it together consistently without seeing anything. I'm. I'm very, you know, we're very fortunate that Short Cien has decided to take up the challenge and. And continue to work with. And say, okay, you know what, we'll make it better for next time and we'll continue to improve. I think without, and this is an important thing in general, without partners, our brand can't exist, because we don't make watches in Malaysia. We don't make watches ourselves. We're not watchmakers. We design the dial, the case, some of the movement components. From an aesthetic point of view, we have technical drawings for the straps and everything. But the reality is, without all the partners that we have to execute them, the watch doesn't exist. Our brand doesn't exist. And I think that's maybe a different approach to watchmaking. And from a watch brand point of view, that's been. That's been done previously. I know Max Busser did a little bit with MB and F, but we are literally outsourcing everything because that's not investing in production facilities and hardware and all that kind of stuff is not what we want to do. I mean, we want to use the best people, the best companies for any given project. And that means that, you know, it gives us a flexibility to deliver a product that I think would be very difficult to do if we did everything in house.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the funny thing is it sounds revolutionary now because for the last 20 years, all anybody's talked about is in house, this in house, that in house, whatever. And we've seen what that does to the average price of products. Right. Products are getting more expensive, and sometimes they're made better, sometimes they're not.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But this is the way watches used to be made. Right. Like for, I think, the 19th century and most of the 20th century, this. This is how watches got made.

[B]

Yep.

[F]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, historically, watchmaking in Switzerland was an inherently collaborative enterprise. Same in the UK, you know, where you would have over 100 different people involved in making of different components for different timepieces. And at some point, the idea that in house was inherently, leaving aside other considerations was inherently a superior way to proceed. You know, kind of got stuck in everybody's head, and I think it got stuck in manufacturers heads as well. And there's been an enormous amount of time, energy, and effort expended, you know, kind of across the board from. For. I mean, just about every brand that I can think of, you know, tries to you know, frame itself as doing everything under one roof. And it's not necessarily an advantageous way to proceed, either from a quality standpoint or an efficiency standpoint or, you know, from a pricing standpoint point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think. And I also think from an integrity standpoint, we. It would make no sense for us to claim that we do everything else. Else.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even if nobody has seen our version of the shorter tin movement of the 1902 before, it would. It would just. I don't know, it resonates wrong with me as a collector. You know, I. I believe that our customers and our clientele are smart enough to. To tell the difference. You know, they're smart enough to appreciate the honesty. So we give credit to it. We give credit to our suppliers, because without them, we can't exist. And you'll see that going forward. So the 1902 is the first one which we've had that's co branded. The rotor has Schwarzer Tien Feming on it. I mean, going forward, we acknowledge the partnerships with Jean Rousseau, who make all of our straps now, even on the 17 series. All of those new straps will have genre soul for Ming on them. As we go forward with other major parties, it'll be the same thing.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, it's transparency, right? Exactly. It's. You're letting your customers know what they're getting. And I think, you know that you mentioned it, but that speaks to the fact that you're a collector. Right. Like you're a watch guy who started a watch brand, not somebody who saw a sort of economic opportunity and started a watch brand.

[B]

I think there are a lot of much easier ways to make a lot more money than making watches.

[A]

I think. I think anyone who makes watches would agree with that.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

You know, that's been actually Springboks. You know, that's a really interesting observation because I think one of the things that maybe we don't appreciate on the consumer side as much as we might is that there's a surprisingly large number of people involved in making and designing watches who really have a lot of emotional commitment to what they're doing. And as you say, there are a lot easier ways to make a living. There are a lot easier ways to make money than making and designing wristwatches.

[B]

Yeah, but we're lucky. I think we're very lucky to have in our partners individuals who are really passionate about the projects. I mean, and there's another project that we're working on where an early prototype was put together. I saw it Last week in Geneva and the whole team was there, progress meeting. We put some of the components together and just went, okay. Wow. We get that warm, fuzzy feeling inside. And we're all excited to make it happen. You want that level of commitment from your partners, but so rarely do you get it. You know, we're so fortunate to have that.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

By the way, can we assume that one of the things that you do not outsource is product photography?

[B]

No, we don't outsource product. But you know what, if this is one of the weird things, I find that we get told a lot that the watches look better in the metal. And I, you know, part of that, part of me takes that personally and part of me goes, well, no, because there's so many reflections in the dial and so many. And, you know, so much of that contributes to your sense of depth. Your left eye and your right eye see things differently. Three dimensions versus two. So, you know, I try not to take it personally, but then I go, okay, you know what, maybe we should fire the photographer.

[A]

So one thing before we start wrapping up that I did want to mention is yesterday, I guess two days ago now, the GPHG announced the shortlist for this fall's awards.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you guys are once again nominated second time around.

[B]

I mean, I think, I don't know how many two year old brands have been nominated in both years of their existence in different categories. I think that that may be a first. Maybe, maybe not.

[A]

It might be, yeah, we can check.

[B]

We are very honored and very humbled to be in that pantheon. I think it speaks volumes for the support that we get from the industry and it makes us keep wanting to do better products. Every time we look at a product, a second revision, third revision, new product, we go, how can we improve this from last time? And I think the public sees that. We've got quite a few models that we've only been around for two years. Our second anniversary is the 15th of August. So we've literally been around for two years. In that time, if you're counting the 1706s, we've launched 12 different models next year. We've got between four and five on the drawing board, most of which, in fact, I think almost all of which are basically all new. Right. And I like to think at this point we stop when we run out of ideas. But we've got this design board in the office that's pretty big. I think it's like 8ft high by what, 15, 16ft across. And each idea we have is on an A4 piece of paper, the board is covered. And every time we go into the office, we sit there, stare at it for a while. Okay, this doesn't work. We take it down, we replace it. We take it down, we replace it. So it's this continuous evolution process. And being recognized for that is, it's very satisfying. You know, it feels like we've come a long way. Right. I think if I'd said to the original, to the original founding group, look, in two years we're going to have 12 different watches and we're going to be in GPSG twice in the finals, I think they would have said, yeah, right. I don't believe you. We're not doing this. But we look at it now and we still pinch ourselves occasionally and go, we're a new brand from the wrong part of the world. People like our stuff. And, and we, you know, we're really doing something that we believe in. We're doing something other people believe in. And it's not, it's almost gone to the point where I'm not trying to sell you a watch anymore. I'm selling you an idea of what a watch can be. Right? It's got to be something that it makes you feel good. Firstly, the whole experience makes you feel good. The purchasing experience, the unboxing, everything else. So we pay a lot of attention to our packaging. It's got to be something that you look at and you go, okay, you know, I appreciate the detail that's gone into, I appreciate the thought that's gone into it. It's got to be something that is not static. So you see it under different lighting conditions, you know, change the straps on it and it feels like a different watch every time. So it's like, you know, you're rediscovering your relationship with, with somebody. And it's, it's, it's that sort of very nice evolution, right? You grow with it. And all I can say is that I'm extremely grateful and the whole team is extremely grateful for all of the people who've supported our idea. And there's been so many of them. The customers, our suppliers, the media, you guys, without you, we don't exist. And we're very honored for that.

[A]

Great. Well, we're running short on time, so I think to wrap things up, we'll run through our Hodinkee questionnaire, the rapid fire questions. We always do. So to start things off, what's a watch that's caught your eye recently?

[B]

GP Cosmos. You know, I'm a sucker for the Louvre. I'm a sucker for the complications. I love the big dome sapphire. I think you probably see why, if you look at our watches. I like that it's a unique mechanical construction. I like this. It's actually quite reductionist in a lot of ways. It's actually quite simple. I've not seen one in the middle, but, you know, that's. It's an example of a watch that's designed to not just look good during the day, but also at night. And we try and do that with ours as well. So to see somebody else has taken, I think, is also really interesting.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

It fits with the whole concept, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the best place you've traveled in the last year?

[B]

Oh, that's a tough one. It's actually a. I would say it's a. A small. A small segment of a much larger place. I mean, I'm. I'm a huge, huge Japanophile, so I tend to go there to decompress and go watch shopping and go camera shopping and stuff my face with sushi and just, you know, sit in the gardens for a while and enjoy that.

[A]

But it sounds pretty perfect.

[F]

It does.

[B]

When we can get away with it. We found a little. Probably the only ryokan in central Tokyo called the Hoshinoya. That place is fantastic. It's like a little oasis.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And probably my favorite place. One of my favorite hotels of all time, actually.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you?

[B]

It's be patient. And it's been given to me by so many people because my. I don't know, my whole background. I graduated at 16, so everything's been done quickly. You know, I'm so used to push, push, push, push, push, push, push. How much can we do faster? And sometimes the timing is not right. You know, I've been told, just wait, let things settle. Let, you know, let yourself settle. You know, develop a little bit more, a bit more feel for the situation, don't rush in. And it's something I consciously have to pull back and hold myself back in doing. And even then, I think I'm still going too quickly in a lot of situations. But everybody's been telling me, just slow down, be a bit more meet and a bit more considered. And every time I have, I'm very glad that they've given me that advice. And it's literally, I can't count how many people.

[A]

Perfect. And the last thing is, what's your guilty pleasure?

[B]

I think it's a company wide guilty pleasure. We have a company humidor, our design meetings, our operational meetings. Everything is in a big cloud of fragrant smoke. So that's a collective guilty pleasure.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So to wrap up, we like to close with a cultural recommendation. So a book, a film museum, something you recommend people go check out when they're done listening to the episode. Anything you'd like to recommend?

[B]

I'm a big fan of paintings by Rene Magritte and Edward Hopper, you know, both because they've got this very nice, surreal, pastel, calm aesthetic, but there's also this underlying tension in all of them. And I think that's kind of interesting because from a compositional design aesthetic standpoint, they're very distinctive. They are very simple in a way, but the idea is very strong, and they develop to the point that it's very consistent. You know exactly what you're looking at. But if you look closely, you get rewarded for that further observation. And, you know, that kind of philosophy is something that I take away with me, whether I'm looking to buy something, whether I'm designing something, whether I'm composing something, you know, and I guess that's another way of expressing it in a nutshell.

[A]

Great.

[F]

That's interesting. Both of those artists kind of embody in different. In different ways the principle of reductionism you were talking about earlier.

[B]

They do, and they're also a little bit surreal. So there's a detachment from reality or reinterpretation of reality, which is. It's nice because it's sort of taking, you know, I know what a watch could be. I know what a watch should be. What else could it be? What else might it be? You know, if we imagine a little bit and throw out all of the expectations and conventions and history and baggage and everything else, what else can we do?

[A]

Great. Jack, you have something you want to recommend.

[F]

It's a very, very, very, very somber book and extremely difficult to read.

[C]

Perfect.

[F]

You've sold me at certain points, but it's an experience. It's called Ghosts of the Tsunami by Richard Lloyd Perry, and it's a sort of narrative written by an Englishman who's lived in Japan for many years, about how culturally and spiritually the tsunami following the great Tohoku earthquake in 2011 kind of affected Japan in general and affected the area that was most hard hit up in northern Japan. And there's one chapter that was published as a sort of excerpt before the book, the whole book came out, which talks about an epidemic of spirit possession that happened thousands and Thousands and thousands of cases in the Tohoku region. And, you know, people. People who'd never had supernatural experiences in their lives, there was something about the whole thing that kind of shattered the perceived boundary between this world and the next. And, you know, it just makes the hair stand up on your head to read it. You know, these are real experiences that happen to real people. And it's framed. And the book, it's. So the article was really interesting to read. And in the book, it's framed in a larger context of the cultural impact of the tsunami and the personal impact. I can't recommend it highly enough. It's probably one of the 10 best books I've ever read. Amazing, but very tough to get through in places.

[B]

We have long haul flights coming up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Back to Asia. We have long haul flights coming up. So. That sounds perfect.

[A]

Actually. I'm going to recommend a TV show, the second season of which just came out on Netflix, Mindhunter, which is based on a book. It's about the FBI behavioral science unit that developed the theoretical underpinnings and the term serial killer in the late 70s and into the early 80s. It's extremely well made. David Fincher directs most of it. If you like Fincher. This is, I guess, 19 hours of David Fincher between the two seasons. It's pretty great. If you like Zodiac, which is one of my favorite films. If you like. Seven parts of it are a little bit gruesome. Parts of it are emotionally disturbing, I would say. But it's.

[F]

I can't imagine why.

[A]

Yeah, right. It's exceptionally well acted. It's exceptionally well made. If you. If you like watching somebody who is, I think, one of the greatest living filmmakers just kind of like flex his muscles with a giant budget and an amazing cast of actors.

[B]

Like, I wish I had a giant budget.

[A]

It's. Yeah, don't we all, man? Yeah. Yeah. Highly recommend it. Yeah. Cool. Well, this has been fun. Thank you so much for coming in. And it's good to finally meet you face to face.

[B]

Thank you for having us. It's been a pleasure. It's been an experience. New York has been an experience. We'll take it with us for always.

[A]

Awesome. Safe travels and hopefully we'll see you back here soon.

[B]

Absolutely. Thanks for the support, guys.

[F]

Thanks so much for being on the show, man.

[B]

My pleasure.

[A]

This week's episode was recorded at Hodinkee HQ in New York City and at the Trunk Hotel in Shibuya, Tokyo. It was produced and edited by Grayson Corjonen. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show. It really does make a difference for us. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.